View Full Version : What Is Going To Happen To Cuba ?
mark the shoeshine boy
08-02-2006, 05:34 AM
what is going to happen to cuba if fidel steps down from power in some way ? There is alot of theories about opening the markets and a different style of governments, opening to foreign investors and such...
what's you take on this ?
mark the shoeshine boy
majkeli
08-02-2006, 05:36 AM
Easily obtained Cuban cigars! :w00t:
TheChefs
08-02-2006, 06:06 AM
I think the changes would be very slow and cuba's terms.
Austin
08-02-2006, 06:23 AM
Nothing will happen. When you have one autocrat handing power to another autocrat, nothing happens.
TheYoshi
08-02-2006, 06:42 AM
Some of the "next in line" types are actually 1000 times worse than he is... so likely not a hell of a lot.
Dinder1
08-02-2006, 06:56 AM
Easily obtained Cuban cigars! :w00t:
I think more than likely cigar prices and demand would be very high, and that quality would suffer greatly. Rumor has it that Cuba has been stockpiling cigars for when trade opens up, but I think this could be just that, rumors.
Cheers, DJ.
There's going to be one hell of a party in Miami. This was Miami last night...
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/media/photo/2006-08/24672339.jpg
what is going to happen to cuba if fidel steps down from power in some way ? There is alot of theories about opening the markets and a different style of governments, opening to foreign investors and such...
what's you take on this ?
mark the shoeshine boy
While it isn't much there is some foreign investment in Cuba now - look at the tourism industry and you will see that many of the Cuban tourist destinations (inclusive resorts, etc) are owned and operated by non-cuban firms. I can't help but think that foreign investment in Cuba would pick up quicker (under ANY Cuban leader) were it not for things like trade and visitation embargos (which, fortunately Canada doesn't have so we Canucks can visit Cuba if we please and can purchase Cuban cigars at any local smoke shop).
inkling
08-02-2006, 09:03 AM
There's going to be one hell of a party in Miami. This was Miami last night...
I was reading a Cuban-American blog yesterday where it said that Rep. Ros-Lehtinen warned Floridians not to get in their boats and sail to Cuba to visit (or liberate) their relatives, etc. This is something I hadn't thought of before.
When it is finally confirmed that Fidel has croaked, do you think there may be an impromptu flotilla from Miami to Cuba? That would be pretty wild... and it would REALLY ruffle Raoul's feathers.
Gatorade
08-02-2006, 10:42 AM
I was reading a Cuban-American blog yesterday where it said that Rep. Ros-Lehtinen warned Floridians not to get in their boats and sail to Cuba to visit (or liberate) their relatives, etc. This is something I hadn't thought of before.
When it is finally confirmed that Fidel has croaked, do you think there may be an impromptu flotilla from Miami to Cuba? That would be pretty wild... and it would REALLY ruffle Raoul's feathers.
I believe a flotilla is already being planned. Brothers to the Rescue launch flotillas on a regular basis for memorials and all kinds of things. The flotillas are within view of the island as international waters are only what 5-11 miles?
Personally I think Cuba will be more open to investors from Europe and South America who already have a relationship with the island. There are quite a few US firms who would try to invest but I believe if things become more relaxed and more free capitalist ideas are taken up that they would go to current friends and not recent enemies.
The things I have heard is that Raul is worse as far as human rights goes and he doesn't have the charisma that Feidel did. So you have a rough arround the edges, hard drinker, toward the end of his own life (Raul is like 75?) who doesn't play well with others. We may not have much change for a while from the current regime.
Hitmeandilltellu
08-02-2006, 10:54 AM
My mom has a masters in Latin American History and is currently teaching said subject in a high school, here's her opinion on what will happen:
She thinks Castro has colon cancer and will die in the next 4-12 months. After that, she expects Raul Castro to take power, but, as he is a less charismatic leader that Fidel, to give in to US and domestic pressure to have elections. After that she's not sure.
I really don't know enough about Cuba or its history to form my own opinions on the subject, but I thought I'd let you know what she thinks.
yasuo200365
08-02-2006, 01:00 PM
Gentlemen,
I can only hope that the demise of Castro will be the excuse the U.S. needs to lift it's overdue embargo against Cuba and so greatly help the people of that country in their everyday life.
With a little luck the U.S. will be able to accept a country near its border that doesn't aspire to want a society like them. I would like to believe that the people of Cuba are able to keep some of their ideas of society as well as gain their personal freedom.
Cuba was a corrupt, poverty stricken basket case of a country before the revolution, l just hope that doesn't return.
I think Cuban history will look kindly upon Castro overrall and in the long term.
Regards
John
Andre
08-02-2006, 01:26 PM
Assuming that it reaches a point where there is enough of a power vacuum (or move towards capitalism) to allow it, what I predict has always been, and continues to be:
Wealthy Cuban exiles in Florida will return, purchase or otherwise take over, huge areas of the place and create their own little fiefdoms. The Cuban people who actually stayed and suffered all these years will NOT get a damn thing when it's all "theirs" again. There is no way they can compete with the money that even middle class Cuban exiles bring to the table. They will be better off, but they will simply have a new master.
Now realistically, bad as that might sound, it might in fact give them a leg-up over other, formerly Communist countries that try going capitalist. They will have the advantage of having a new government that truely understands capitalism and has already been operating under it - not just a bunch of former Communists trying to keep their heads intact, but too unsavy in the ways of self-determination.
That's always been my opinion, and it continues to be so.
Andre
...I think Cuban history will look kindly upon Castro overrall and in the long term...
As it should (IMHO).
Castro may not have done everything correctly during the past 5 decades - but he certainly did a lot for his country and I for one cannot fault him for that.
Easily obtained Cuban cigars! :w00t:
One can dream!:biggrin: :biggrin:
It will be a long slow change- I Have met many Cubans that lost homes and property -loved one that were disappeared-this is a brutal and viscous regime the kind of thing takes years to change.
Andre
08-02-2006, 02:58 PM
Castro may not have done everything correctly during the past 5 decades - but he certainly did a lot for his country and I for one cannot fault him for that.
You CAN'T be serious!!! This was brutal murderous regime that could only stay in power by repression (like all Communist regimes). Praising it for the reason of any minor good is like praising Jack the Ripper because he only killed whores. It never ceases to amaze me how there is no lack of people willing to overlook so much when it comes to Communism. Gee, at least Stalin gave his people a nifty canal!
I'm sure there are millions of folks over the years who lost family & property either in Cuba or in desperate attempts to flee the place that don't have your positive view.
Andre
I'm certainly no Cuba scholar, but it seems like there were a lot more people trying to get out of Cuba (on rafts, innertubes, etc.) than trying to get in.
I wonder how many Cubans will think fondly of Castro when he's gone--that will be the ultimate testament to his regime.
As it should (IMHO).
Castro may not have done everything correctly during the past 5 decades - but he certainly did a lot for his country and I for one cannot fault him for that.
Okay wow! That is a very different view point than what I get down here in S. Florida. Castro has been getting off pretty easy over the past 10 years or so. With Papal visits and countries lurking around for oil & gas and other raw materials. Castro was a really really bad guy and accountable for the killing 1000's and suffering of many. He's kept that country in 1959 for quite some time. Image losing everything that you own today. Your land and possesions they are now owned by the Govt. The human rights and freedoms that we take for granted are not allowed by Castro and his regiem. They would have you killed, imprisoned or forced off of the island. I for one hope that I never have to flee anywhere or cross any body of water in a 55 gallon drum. I never want to live in that type of psychological fear.
This is my opinion embargos aside I think that the US has been taking it lightly on Castro & Cuba in prep for this day. We just went after Hussein for WMD's and his murderous ways of the Iraqi people. And Hussein did not have one weapon that could reach the US. But Cuba is 70 miles away and Castro is not a threat but he too is guilty of killing his own people. Cuba is a virgin, starving market that is hungry for infrastructure and goods. There is an enormus opportunity for profits to be made off of Cuba if communism fails.
Many of the local politicians in S. Florida who are either Cuban or have Cuban background are getting the people in Miami all worked up about helping to free Cuba. People here are also getting prepared for the onslaught of lawsuits over land deeds and titles to the folks who's property was nationalized.
This is an interesting pot of stew and one can hope that whatever happens hopefully the people of Cuba will be able to have a better say in what is best for them. Cuba Libre!!!
inkling
08-02-2006, 03:21 PM
I have to agree with the anti-Castro sentiments expressed here. He is a mass murderer who beats, imprisons or kills his political opponents, journalists and those who seek to think for themselves. He tosses gays in prison, intellectuals into re-education camps and AIDS victims into ersatz leper colonies. And his decades of impoverishing a nation overflowing in resources and resourcefulness has compelled countless poor souls to take to shark-infested oceans in leaky rafts in an often-fatal gamble for freedom.
When Castro does perish, I hope he spends his infernal eternity making Cuba Libre cocktails for Hitler, Mao and Stalin, while Che cleans up their vomit. I must admit, my bewilderment over Western liberal admiration for these cruel madmen increases every year. And on that note, let me say Abajo Fidel! Cuba Libre!
yasuo200365
08-02-2006, 04:13 PM
Before their revolution Cuba was overrun with criminals, corrupt officials and exploitative (U.S. Oil) businesses. It was ready for a popular revolution...., those who fled in the early years to Miami etc were those in the main who prospered under the old regime.
In 1959 the average life expectancy was 60.
Since then Cuba has built one of the best (& free at delivery) health systems in the world. Life expectancy has increased by 18 years to equal to the U.S. and its infant mortality rate is actually better than the States.
Cuba is still a third world country, but compared to the region it has prospered. It has better literacy rates than the U.S.
One of the factors that makes life so hard in Cuba is the blockade - it has stopped machine parts and chemicals from reaching the country - agriculture has had to learn to adapt and businesses have gone to the wall.
Apart from hardship to the Cuban people the blockade has achieved little or nothing politically. It comes as no surprise to me that a small percentage of Cubans have risked their life to escape economic hardship - a lot of which is a direct consequence of the blockade.
When Castro goes he will leave knowing that Cuba is in much better position than it was in 1959...., and its population is still better off, despite the blockade, than many of those countries in the region that had corrupt 'nasty' regimes propped up by the U.S. in the 60's, 70's & 80's.
History will be kind to Castro ...., when will the U.S. release its prisoners (held without trial) in Cuba?
Regards
John
moses
08-02-2006, 04:52 PM
Personally, I tend to take pretty seriously the view of the Cuban people that I know on this topic, and I find that their feelings for Castro tend to be anything but kind. I have a very close friend of Cuban descent, who recently had the extraordinary good forture to be able to visit and see some of her family that is still there. Her reports are not quite so sunny as perhaps John's picture (not to discount what he says, which is doubtless well informed and largely true). And her father and grandparents who immigrated from Cuba look one Castro anything but favorably.
Note, though, that I think the embargo is doing far more harm than good, and has been doing so for years.
Wow,
It looks like I've stirred up a bit of a hornets nest here... certainly not my intention... though, I guess that it should come as no surprise that Cuba is demonized far more in the US than it is in Canada and other nations that do not participate in the embargo.
mark the shoeshine boy
08-02-2006, 05:49 PM
as a humorous note, does this mean when the borders open up, I can get old car parts from there...because everytime i see anyone driving it is always a newer looking 57 chevy or oldsmobile.....but never a honda...lol
mark tssb
this is not a racist remark either....
Andre
08-02-2006, 06:54 PM
Before their revolution Cuba was overrun with criminals, corrupt officials and exploitative (U.S. Oil) businesses. It was ready for a popular revolution...., those who fled in the early years to Miami etc were those in the main who prospered under the old regime.
The Cuban Revolution was HARDLY a popular one. It was a handful of intellectuals who managed to swindle their way into credibility with just enough people to foolishly strongarm their movement into power. EXACTLY like every other totalitarian revolution. Ideas like that ONLY ever gain and hold power by force.
[/QUOTE]In 1959 the average life expectancy was 60.
Since then Cuba has built one of the best (& free at delivery) health systems in the world. Life expectancy has increased by 18 years to equal to the U.S. and its infant mortality rate is actually better than the States.[/QUOTE]
I guess if you think that thousands of bodies, 30-some-odd years of totalitarian oppression, and the inability to make basic choices about how you want to live your life and raise your children is "free." NOTHING in life is free and there is NO SUCH THING AS FREE HEALTH CARE. In America we pay for our healthcare with money. In Cuba they pay with death and misery. I'm sure it comes as some consolation to the Cuban widow, whose husband and father were killed for "counter-revolutionary thinking" to know that she can get a "free" chickenpox shot. (and if you seriously think that Canadian Health Care is "free" then I've got some free sunshine I can sell you for $10 shipping and handling!)
One of the factors that makes life so hard in Cuba is the blockade - it has stopped machine parts and chemicals from reaching the country - agriculture has had to learn to adapt and businesses have gone to the wall.
Apart from hardship to the Cuban people the blockade has achieved little or nothing politically. It comes as no surprise to me that a small percentage of Cubans have risked their life to escape economic hardship - a lot of which is a direct consequence of the blockade.
Oh, is Big, Bad America making life difficult for Communists again? How many millions does the world's Left think is a fair price in their little experiment in bad governmental principles? We're at about 100 Million deaths at the moment (worldwide, due to Communism since the Bolsheviks siezed power)? So those that flee Cuba are only trying to escape American economic brutality? Funny how the vast majority of them come here then. Maybe they are just too stupid to figure it out and go to Canada instead (no doubt made that way in American Schools).
When Castro goes he will leave knowing that Cuba is in much better position than it was in 1959...., and its population is still better off, despite the blockade, than many of those countries in the region that had corrupt 'nasty' regimes propped up by the U.S. in the 60's, 70's & 80's.
History will be kind to Castro ...., when will the U.S. release its prisoners (held without trial) in Cuba?
Again, it never ceases to amaze me that people who can scream indignantly about a handful of uncomfortable inmates under U.S. control, never seem able to raise the same level of concern for people who will willingly kill millions just because they have a different philosophy of government. I guess 100 million killed and millions more affected in lesser ways, pales in comparison to our arrogant jailing of a relative handful people who want to kill us.
After nearly 100 years of leftist apologetics for mass murder, this shouldn't surprise me, I guess. But I keep hoping that when it comes around again that THIS time it will be different.
Just like in Eastern Europe, we need to open Cuba, rather than keep it cut off. Communism there would end next week if we did that (despite all of the Cuban's apparant love for Castro). It works because the one thing people want more than anythng else is choice, something they NEVER get under Communism or Socialism. I'm sure since Castro has made them so much smarter than us, they'll figure that out right away.
Andre
TheChefs
08-02-2006, 07:03 PM
I just find it very ironic the attitude of people from USA towards Cuba and China. with China having far worse human right record, with the most recent example being Falun Gong. Yet I don't see any calls for embargos etc. I guess economic and military power makes a difference. Since when usa talks about human rights to china it's usually just giving lip service.
Andre
08-02-2006, 07:15 PM
No, it's not lip service. It's just that whenever someone actually suggests that we treat Communists harshly, and tries to institute some sort of policy, others start whining about how it will affect their children and harping about insensitive Conservatives that don't care about people, don't undertand all the GOOD that comes out of totalitarian regimes, etc.
Meanwhile, the killing goes on.
I just find it very ironic the attitude of people from USA towards Cuba and China. with China having far worse human right record, with the most recent example being Falun Gong. Yet I don't see any calls for embargos etc. I guess economic and military power makes a difference. Since when usa talks about human rights to china it's usually just giving lip service.
There is a world of difference between a tiny island nation that can do essentially nothing to defend itself and a very powerful (in both economic and military might) nation that could essentially cripple the US or any other nation that were to go up against it... also, there are bad communists and good communists; the major difference appears to be that good communists are ones that you depend upon to maintain your economy.
Andre, you are right about health care in both Canada and Cuba in that it is not free... but in both countries it is universal and in many ways superior to the US healthcare system (though not in all ways)
... We're at about 100 Million deaths at the moment (worldwide, due to Communism since the Bolsheviks siezed power)...
What if we drop China from the list (since they are "good communists" and it is easy to look away when they violate human rights)? Any idea how many people have died at the hands (or bombs) of those who participate in the embargo against Cuba during the same time frame? Now, how many of your supposed 100M were killed by the Castro regime? How many American citizens were executed in the last 47 years (I would expect that there have been more American citizens executed during the last 47 years than people killed by Castro's regime - anybody have any numbers?)?
inkling
08-02-2006, 09:16 PM
How many American citizens were executed in the last 47 years (I would expect that there have been more American citizens executed during the last 47 years than people killed by Castro's regime - anybody have any numbers?)?
After doing a quick Google search, I found that since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976 there have been 1,024 executions in the United States. Capital punishment was suspended from 1973 to 1976. Extrapolating this number back to 1957, I estimate a total of 1,536 executions in the U.S. since Castro actively began his successful revolution.
Please note that these were all convicted murderers, etc. They were executed for capital crimes, not the anti-revolutionary "crimes" of being a journalist, homosexual or political opponent.
Now stats from Castro's Cuba via the Miami Herald:
At 31,173, the tally of documented cases keeps growing, and includes:
• 5,728 killed by Castro firing squads
• 1,207 extrajudicial killings after Castro took power
• 1,216 deaths in prison.
(snip)
Meanwhile, Lago has also come up with a mathematical formula to estimate the number of rafters who perished at sea -- a number he estimates at 77,879.
Please note that Cuba's population is approximately 3.7% of that in the U.S. With the population adjustment for a per capita equivalent, the U.S. capital punishment since 1957 is only 58 deaths.
A few quotes from Che Guevara:
"We will make our hearts cruel, hard, and immovable ... we will not quiver at the sight of a sea of enemy blood. Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood! Let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois – more blood, as much as possible."
"Hatred is an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective and cold-blooded killing machine."
"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon (The Wall)!"
One of the untried victims that Che shot against the paredon was a 14-year-old. Yet people deeply opposed to the capital punishment of convicted murders will proudly wear Che T-shirts. A world gone mad.
This is not "demonization" but a recitation of fact. To claim that these innocents deserved to die so that the Cubans who weren't killed could have spotty but egalitarian health care or improved literacy does a painful disservice to the victims' memory. Mussolini famously made the "trains run on time," but that didn't excuse his murderous crimes.
BTW, I know this discussion has gotten quite heated for our rather genteel shaving forum. However, I assure all taking part that although my comments have been passionate, in no way are they intended to attack any members personally. I grew up in a family of strident liberals and strident conservatives, which made each dinnertime an exercise in brutal argumentation. We carry on our arguments to this day, but we know we're all family. :001_smile (I promise not to start signing Kumbayah)
inkling, I'll admit that I'm a little surprised by the numbers that you've provided - but I will take your word on it since I am honestly too lazy to look them up right now (I've got bigger things to worry about for the next few weeks)... I stand by my thoughts/feelings on Cuba and Castro (i.e., many of the problems of the nation are caused by external forces, Castro is not without blame but has done many beneficial things for his country, etc), but for the sake of my sanity I'll leave this discussion to people who have more time to devote to elloquent and educated discussions. I will, however, continue to read the discussions...
moses
08-02-2006, 10:07 PM
Thank you Inkling, for putting it very very well. It is far too easy to romanticize things and people that are/were in fact awfully brutal.
I am ademantly opposed to the death penalty in the US. I believe it is a substitution of vengance for justice, that does a disservice to both God and man. I won't go into it at length, because that isn't the point - the point is that even though I feel the death penalty is a crime against humanity, I feel that the suggestion that it is somehow equivalent to the human rights attrocities we see in Cuba, China, or many other similar places is seriously perspective lacking.
This is something that often troubled me in my years in Berkeley - the readiness to immediately comdemn the failures of the United States in response to suggestions of the oppressiveness of other regimes. Yes, we have the death penalty, which I, like many, feel is a human rights violation. Yes, while we would like to pretend otherwise, the truth is that a significant percentage of people we put to death are innocent. Yes, there was Abu Ghraib. I believe what happened there was a base lack of humanity. Yes there is Guantanamo. (And before we dismiss the complaints about that on the grounds that we were holding people who were trying to kill us, it would be well to remember that most of the poeple held there are gradually being released because of a lack of any credible evidence that they had anything to do with anything). To say nothing of the fact that in such a rich nation, so many people end up dying as a result of poverty.
Yes we have our faults, but I am tired of hearing them compared to those of China or Cuba, or for that matter the Saddam Hussein regime. All sins may be sins, and may be equal in the eyes of God (I don't really believe that), but they are NOT equal in the harm they do.
I recently had the opportunity to help a Tibetan Llama seeking asylum in the US. He was born to a heriditary position in his community. (Unlike the high level religious leaders, also called Llamas, the Llama as village leader/elder is a role passed directly from father to son). He never received the training that went with his position, however, because his parents both died in a "truck accident." Actually, they went to a protest in 1989 and never came back, and their bodies likewise strangely dissappeared. We he was still in his teens, his cousin who had escaped sent him a box of photographs of the Dalai Llama, which, feeling it was his duty to do so, he distributed to the people of his village. He was picked up by the police and held for two months as a result. Most of that time, he was held in a cell so small that he could not straighten his body in any direction. He was regularly questioned, and beaten severely during questioning. He was also tortured with an electric cattle prod on regular occasions. At one point a guard attacked him with a broken bottle. He still has scars from the treatment he received, as well as suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. During this period he was never charged with any crime. After his release he participated in three small protests. After the third, he received word that he was being hunted by the police. He hid in a cave in the mountains for several months, where villagers provided him with food. His wife's uncle was the "mayor", and sent him word repeatedly that he would be killed if he was found. As a result, he fled, and escaped with a lot of luck with his wife to Nepal. There he was unable to get a real job, because of lack of legal residence. The militia started to extort money from him, threatening to return him to China. As a result, he sold everything he had of value, and bought fake passport and a plane ticket to LA, where he turned himself in to immigration.
This man's story is not at all atypical, except perhaps in that he was lucky enough to escape, and did not suffer truly crippling injury. The Chinese regime routinely kills and mains people without trial. On the order of possibly thousands a year. It is truly physically extremely dangerous there to express political dissent, especially certain viewpoints. And that is just the beginning. And this barely scratches the surface, of the horrible things the PRC continues to do to its people. (For support, see the US State Department Human Rights Report (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61605.htm), or the Tibet Centre for Human Rights and Democracy Report (http://www.tchrd.org/publications/annual_reports/2005/ar_2005.pdf)).
So by all means continue to point out the failures of the United States in human rights. Lord knows there are plenty, and there is no excuse for ignoring them. But please do not make a mockery of both the need for improvement here, and the seriousness of the human rights violations that happen in autocratic societies, by suggesting that they are equal.
PS - Like NMMB, I would like to emphasize that while my statements are strongly worded and strongly felt, they are NOT a personal attack on anyone.
PPS - Also apologies for talking about China in a thread about Cuba; unfortunately I know less about Cuba.
yasuo200365
08-03-2006, 12:20 AM
Personally I would not take the Miami Herald as a good independent source when quoting figures, but lets just suppose they are correct.....,
When did these killings happen? In the last 5, 10, 15 years or 45 years ago?
When the United States had its "Revolution" what proportion of people died then? How about the American "Civil War"? Turbulant times.
The U.S. demonises Castro & Cuba way out of all proportion ..., while I agree it is no paradise, if the U.S. government actually allowed its citizens to visit & walk around Cuba they would find out first hand that Castro is no Stalin or Hitler as has been claimed by some, and that U.S. embargo policy has caused real hardship to the people ..., who are BTW christians in the most part, if that makes it easier to relate to their plight.
That other "handful" (big hands!) that has been mentioned are not christians, they're muslims and as such to some they're automatically "terrorists", sub-human even & the U.S. government has the right to do whatever it wants without justifying itself to anyone ...., just like Hitler & Stalin did.
Regards
John
english_barber
08-03-2006, 12:51 AM
Good morning,
Gave up the will to live, let alone finish reading these posts....
In Europe Cuba is seen as an inexpensive vacation destination and an investment oppurtunity free from US involvement. Little is known or understood of the conflict between the US and Cuba this side of the atlantic, most people over here are not even interested in finding out.
I believe Cuba to be very warm this time of the year, prehaps we could loan Cuba John Prescott, http://www.deadbrain.co.uk/news/article_2006_07_19_0446.php.
Have a nice day, leave politics to the fools we elect!
Regards, Robert
Andre
08-03-2006, 04:57 AM
Some of this has truely become surreal! Now there are Good Communists and Bad Communists!? The American Revolution where most died IN BATTLE for an idea that truely revolutionized the world, is now being compared to a Revolution where people were lined up against a wall and shot by the THOUSANDS just because they opposed the idea, or simply because they refused to renounce their Christian faith (back when Castro officially Athiestized [sp?] the country!?
It's obvious that many are still willing to put their fruits in the basket of ANYONE who is in opposition to the American administation, even to the point of making logical and moral contortions that are truely inexplicable. I'm just sorry to see it happening in a case so obvious as Cuba. I don't agree 100% with everything the U.S. does in the world, but I think some of the comparisons made by some to the actions of Terrorists and Communists are shameful. There's no point in carrying this any further.
Andre
Gatorade
08-03-2006, 08:55 AM
A Cuban trial for crimes consists of protesters asked if they back the Communitst government and sign a statement saying so. No oath or signature and you get put to death.
Neighbors selling out neighbors to get an extra ration of rice.
If Cuba is so free and open to outsiders why is it that a US embargo cripples the Cuban economy? There are no restrictions on Cuba dealing with other countries. Let someone else prop up Cuba.
Mark, I know it was a joke but you do know that when you see those cars they are not really kept for nostaliga. When you lift the hood you find pieces from 30 different make cars on one engine. Bicycle parts used to fix cars and the like. They don't have Pep Boys on the corner. If something in the car brakes they have to make something to fix it with. Nothing like having to decide to cut more off your only garden hose because your radiator hoses have burst.
Dying because you don't believe in the government should not happen. Newspaper reporters are killed on a regular basis for writing something against Castro.
Castro initally had support of people who bought into his ideas of a better life. Little did they know that he only meant a better life for the people he wanted to give it to. Shortly after he took power they regreted it. Cuba now is a shell of what it was in the past.
I suppose the increase in the average life expectancy is not counting the thousands who were executed?
I am stunned that anyone would actually have a posative word to way about Castro. That is like saying Charles Manson isn't so bad. Time and manipulation of the facts have clouded Castros public view. However the countless dead know different.
yasuo200365
08-03-2006, 12:44 PM
Why is it that the U.S. Government won't allow its citizens to travel to Cuba?
They don't normally restrict them from travelling to other countries, even those with poor human rights records!
Maybe they don't trust an informed US citizen to come to the conclusion that Cuba is 'hell on earth' & Castro is all to blame.
God forbid, these informed citizens may even start thinking (when sitting next to those foreign holiday makers) that they have been exaggerated to, and possibly even lied to. It could result in these people questioning the very foundation of what they have been told about the world.
Ah, now I see why they're not allowed to go.
-----------------------------------
Cuba is no paradise...., in no small part this is due to the U.S. embargo, which was tightened up in the early 1990's.
The embargo is effective because those who trade with Cuba are not welcome in the U.S. - the choice for the business man is between a small Cuban market and the big U.S. market. It is not surprising that this policy has made the lives of the Cuban people very hard indeed.
Instead of doing the sensible thing of taking the opportunity of building bridges after the Cold-War and bringing in reform via the backdoor, the U.S. thought it would be a good idea to tighten the screw and bring more hardship.
It is no wonder that this hard-line U.S. approach resulted in unrest and a tougher Cuban government response.
IMV the fact that Castro is still around today is in some part due to a significant proportion of the Cuban people not wanting the negative influence of the US on their country.
The following link gives the history of Cuba. I suggest those who actually believe that Cuba was a democratic functioning country before 1959 should read up about Batista and his regime and also the negative influence of the U.S. upon Cuba at this time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/country_profiles/1203355.stm
Regards
John
I have a solution. Let's get one of our medium sized naval vessels to tow Cuba across the pond and leave it a few miles off the coast of England. This way, the Brits can extend to them the same reverance, respect, and hospitality that they normally reserve for the French. :lol:
Andre
08-03-2006, 01:59 PM
The U.S. Government restricts travel and trade with Cuba PRIMARILY because the U.S. Cuban lobby doesn't want ANY possibility of Castro benefitting from American travel and commerce. Hell, they wouldn't even allow the Buena Vista Social Club to perform in Miami (at least the first time around, if not always), for this very reason. Same with the Latin Grammy's: Miami seems an obvious choice, but was initially excluded because local Cubans didn't want and would not allow any Cuban musicians or bands to participate. For whatever reason, they are feared enough by politicians, certainly in Florida, to get their way.
As I've said, I disagree with this approach and I think Castro would be gone within a week if American citizens were able to travel freely to Cuba and they caught wind of the fact that we live like Kings compared to 95% of the rest of the world, and the wealth could be shared with them. That's what happened in Eastern Europe, and will happen again in Cuba, eventually.
Has the current U.S. embargo harmed the Cuban people? Sure, to some extent, but they've got bigger issues than not being able to buy Nike's. Opening the portals to a Communist country will only go so far before it leads to either restrictions (on the part of the Communists - to prevent their good thing from coming to an end by default [as the Soviets learned the hard way]), or a democratic revolution by the oppressed citizens of Communist states who start wanting all the stuff that allows people from free nations to be so prosperous, and not have to wait in line for six hours to buy the same Nikes [East Germany].
There are not many Americans gullable enough to think that living in a crappy old apartment building with peeling paint, no A/C, barely working appliances, a '57 Chevy up on blocks out front lacking a simple part - no longer obtainable in Cuba, the need to queue up at various markets on a regular basis (often for hours), frequent electrical brownouts, a healthcare system that, while universal, is hardly world class, and an educational system that teaches you to be a good Communist, rather than critical thinking [more important than literacy], and a system of patrolling guards that are necessary to prevent the masses who would float away in a tire if possible - just to get away, is something to ASPIRE to. Is it "Hell on Earth?" Mostly no - and I never said it was. It's just yet another poor Caribbean country with little prospect of ever giving its people a better life without shunning the intellectual fantasy of the glories of Socialism. An idea long dead among all but the intelligentsia.
IMV the fact that Castro is still around today is in some part due to a significant proportion of the Cuban people not wanting the negative influence of the US on their country.
An astounding statement if I've ever seen one! I shake my head and bow down to you...
Andre
yasuo200365
08-04-2006, 12:38 AM
For Cuba the U.S. embargo is not about buying Nike trainers - they need 'machine parts & chemicals' - it is these things that allow you to have transport, farm machinary, electrical generators, agricultural fertilizers, paints etc.
If the U.S. doesn't want its businesses to supply these things then fine, but the embargo won't allow other countries businesses to trade with Cuba, otherwise they can't trade in the U.S. - so it is using the size of its market to bully other countries to tow its line.
The consequence of the U.S. embargo is a much harder life for the Cuban people - who I suggest are concerned about more everyday matters than Nike branded running shoes.
Regards
John
Should you want to learn more here are some good links:
Here is a link about the Cuban health system:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/5232628.stm
This is the summary from the World Bank on Cuba's educational system:
http://www.eldis.org/static/DOC8496.htm
and this is a link to the full report:
http://wbln0018.worldbank.org/LAC/LACInfoClient.nsf/0/cd7d7d73295cfeb8852567bd0055f404/$FILE/48.pdf
Finally this is the man who run things in the good ol days (according to the U.S. Government):
http://library.advanced.org/18355/fulgencio_batista.html
I have a solution. Let's get one of our medium sized naval vessels to tow Cuba across the pond and leave it a few miles off the coast of England. This way, the Brits can extend to them the same reverance, respect, and hospitality that they normally reserve for the French. :lol:
We'll swap France AND Scotland for Cuba:lol: Throw in Hawaii and you can have Wales as well:lol:
moses
08-04-2006, 07:05 AM
France and Scotland for Cuba. HELL YES!!!! I don't smoke, and we have that pesky embargo anyway. What good possibly be wrong with bringing the source of the world's best whiskey, as well as a lot of very good expensive wine, and very good cheap wine a little closer.....
moses
08-04-2006, 07:17 AM
On a more serious note, I thought I would mention this, although I am not sure what the implications are. Cuba is indeed a fairly popular tourist destination. The way that this is run, there are entirely separate stores for Cubans vs. tourists. The one takes the local currency, is poorly stocked and often out of basic necessities. The other takes dollars and probably euros, and has pretty much everything you could need or want. Even if a Cuban national gets their hands on some foreign currency, however, they are not permitted to spend it in the tourist stores, and are still stuck with their crappy ones....
Also, just to note a little disconnect in the conversation:
1) Thinking that the embargo is a really bad idea is NOT the same as supporting Castro or thinking that he is or was good for Cuba.
Andre
08-04-2006, 07:18 AM
For Cuba the U.S. embargo is not about buying Nike trainers - they need 'machine parts & chemicals' - it is these things that allow you to have transport, farm machinary, electrical generators, agricultural fertilizers, paints etc.
Agreed (as I've said), but get real, and a country's interest in world products ALWAYS include the cool stuff that is basically of U.S. origin, is popularized here, invented here, marketed heavily here, and comes from our way of life. I know that Europeans, in particular like to pretend that's not true, but it is.
If the U.S. doesn't want its businesses to supply these things then fine, but the embargo won't allow other countries businesses to trade with Cuba, otherwise they can't trade in the U.S. - so it is using the size of its market to bully other countries to tow its line.
Maybe, but then this only matters if getting American products or using the American market are important to you. As I said, Everyone likes to pretend that America doesn't matter, but we do. And virtually everything useful in the world right now was either invented here, is made here (or by American comtrolled or owned companies), or is just "important" because American consumers see it's value (as well as all who then copy us). There's not much beyond the very basic which is not American (or Americanized) these days. Like it or not, it's just how it is. Every country maintains its core civilization/culture, but every country now has a huge American cultural influence. I don't think this would happen if everyone hated us as much as they pretend. McDonald's in Paris still does better business than any McDonald's in the U.S. And in ain't just American tourists eating there (as I can attest).
The consequence of the U.S. embargo is a much harder life for the Cuban people - who I suggest are concerned about more everyday matters than Nike branded running shoes.
Obviously, that's not ALL that's important to them. But that's only because they are a pipe dream now. Give them what they need to make a better life and they will then be buying the same American products as the rest of the world.
Should you want to learn more here are some good links:
Here is a link about the Cuban health system:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/5232628.stm
This is the summary from the World Bank on Cuba's educational system:
http://www.eldis.org/static/DOC8496.htm
and this is a link to the full report:
http://wbln0018.worldbank.org/LAC/LACInfoClient.nsf/0/cd7d7d73295cfeb8852567bd0055f404/$FILE/48.pdf
Finally this is the man who run things in the good ol days (according to the U.S. Government):
http://library.advanced.org/18355/fulgencio_batista.html
You really should read these links with a bit more critical thinking. First off the one on healthcare was HARDLY positive. Just because something is considered as an alternative to Britain's, it doesn't mean that it is a positive. That was an example of a screwed up healthcare system that was better (in their opinion) than Britain's, not of one that was great. That article just demonstrated than even a really messed up healthcare system that is just making do, is better than Britain's. Read the article, if that's not clear to you, I can't help you.
As far as education, that "report" was little more than a list of vague bullet points that could be applied to just about any modern nation. The IMPORTANT thing in an education system (not really mentioned) is whether it prepares/allows its people to pursue their dreams in life; whether at 18 a kid can decide he wants to become a doctor, work hard, and do it. MOST educational systems, including in Europe, are not really set up that way. In fact, in most parts of the world, what you do in your earlier school years has an overriding interest in what you are allowed to become. You think the average Cuban (or German for that matter), gets to say, "yeah, well forget about my bad grades in science, I'm going to work had, prove I can do it in college, then get into medical school!" Not generally. More likely the vocational tests he takes as a teenager have locked him into a basic career path, kept him out of all but a vocational college, then the heavy union influence incentivizes him to be happy with his life-long job at the meat packing plant. People who completely change careers every so often, often involving more schooling, are uncommon in most countries, especially ones that are heavily socialized and unionized. Socialized countries do not allow their citizens to purpue their whims all willy-nilly, they can't afford the investment. But this happens all the time in the U.S. (I speak for myself here). Sure it's hard work and requires effort, saving money, etc. But our system is set up for such things. Try going back to school at 42 to take on a completely different career in most countries. If they let you at all, you better have a better reason than "I feel like it."
And any time you see birth stats, you MUST look at how each country counts a "birth." Many countries (even in Europe) don't count a birth at all until it has lived a certain amount of time, so naturally these types of countries will have a better infant mortality rate, because most who die, are never counted. I don't know how Cuba counts hers, but it is the critical piece of information (usually omitted, for some reason). This has been noted over and over again in studies countering the often claim that the U.S. has a lousy infant mortality rate. It's because we count even still births in that number, most countries do not.
In a way, I feel bad even argueing the point with you, because I have rarely met a non-American that sees the world the way we do. Even the poorest American has the ability to change his or her life completely with the application of a little hard work. Even Americans that get a job at 20 and do it their whole lives (like a European) has had more opportunity within that company than the average European ever gets, probably has advanced more, and certainly doesn't see it as all they CAN ever do. To say nothing of the fact that if a person is willing to sacrifice, they can always change their circumstances. Despite what the media likes to tell everyone, only 4% of the American population will STAY in the bottom 20% of income for more than a decade. Most African-Americans make more than $50,000/year (the group most often portrayed as being victimized by society - still earn more on average than the vast majority of people in this world - including the Europeans). Most poor people do not stay that way long. (In fact, the majority (64% last I looked) of people earning minimum wage in this country are the kids of middle class whites earning extra money - think about THAT when someone wants to raise it again!). Can the average Brit wake up one day and decide that, at age 50, they want to become a Doctor, or a Barrister, or a jet pilot, or... Even if we as Americans don't do it, we all know we can - it might be REALLY hard work, but we can.
I'm sure you're a great guy, John, and I'd sit over a pint with you any day, but it is clear that you have a different way of thinking about government and society that I think leads to poverty, more often than not. I think that is absolutey clear from looking at the world now and historically. Unfortunately, I think some people allow particular political points to get in the way of what they should clearly be seeing. The Cuban people have been screwed over by their government, as has been the inevitable practice of all Socialist governments worldwide. I don't discount the U.S.'s effect on this, but you can't pretend than Cuba would be a Socialist paradise, were it not for the U.S. No country in HISTORY has ever had prosperity like that found in the best capatalistic countries, because Socialism lacks fundamental human needs: Change & Opportunity.
I hope the Cuban people will be given Change & Opportunity soon. If they are as hard working, long-suffering, and perseverant as you suggest, they will do fine.
I'm done on this.
Andre
France and Scotland for Cuba. HELL YES!!!! I don't smoke, and we have that pesky embargo anyway. What good possibly be wrong with bringing the source of the world's best whiskey, as well as a lot of very good expensive wine, and very good cheap wine a little closer.....
I see you don't want Wales. Oh well, it was worth a shot
Andre
08-04-2006, 09:37 AM
No, it's just that we want hawaii more!
yasuo200365
08-04-2006, 03:04 PM
Andre,
I’ll accept that drink anytime, but I hope you don’t assume that I'm communist or even a socialist. In my time I have created a couple of businesses in the City (of London) dealing with private investments, I'm very much the capitalist. Never ever voted Labour, so my conscience is clear with regard to that current twat Blair.
I’m a right of centre, generally pro-American Tory, believe it or not. I’ve been to the States many times and I don’t make the mistake of thinking that the actions of the U.S. government accurately reflect the views of everyone who lives there.
My Mother was American, I had a U.S. born brother (who died in service for his country) and there is my U.K. born brother, married to an American & living in the States.
Enough of my pro-American credentials because I have to tell you your assumption that everyone in the World wants to be like the United States is wrong.
Lots of people strongly believe that the lifestyle in the U.S. is based around over consumption, and relies upon the exploitation of the 3rd World poor and the taking of their natural resources. I'm sure many a Cuban believes that the U.S. is more than capable of becoming a corrupting influence it it helps to achieve their aim.
I do recognise that we in the first World outside of the United States are hypocrites, since our lifestyle also relies upon third world exploitation. Even so many don’t want to be like the U.S. because they think your Work/Life balance is out of kilter. Their argument would be that it is all very fine having lots of consumerist goods and replacing them regularly, but you work too many hours in the day & you take too few holidays throughout the year. Many a European thinks that the U.S. has forgotten what is the best of life.
Others don’t want to be like the U.S. because they don’t like the social structure. Some see racism (especially against blacks) and are put off by the lack of mixing between different races. Then there is the perceived influence that religion is having on education, politics & life in general....,.., Europeans are an ungodly lot. Here in the U.K. I would suggest most do not like your health system as we dislike inequality when it comes to health.
On a personal front I find U.S. political coverage shallow; I don’t like your crime levels, your gun laws and the fact you can’t walk around parts of town especially at night, and of course your TV has too many adverts. As to the American dream – I see no prospect in my lifetime of a woman President, let alone a black one.
Moving on – while I agree you Yanks are an inventive lot, to say that modern life is in the main due to the U.S. is over stating it massively: Here are some things that the world doesn’t owe to the U.S. ,….,
The jet engine, the motor car, the train, the rocket, radio, the web, cloning, Viagra, fuel cells, football (soccer), tennis, golf, radar, desalination, the lavatory, the mobile phone, the walkman, the smart card, the cyclone vacuum cleaner, the Workmate bench, the baby buggy, lava lamps, medical scanners, the rotary piston engine, Velcro, the seat belt, Float (Plate) glass, photography, cinema, the hologram, the ballpoint pen, Polythene, the anglepoise lamp, synthetic insulin, self-winding wrist watch, the tank, the machine gun, stainless steel, the rawlplug, neon lighting, tarmac road surface, disc brakes, catalytic converter, synthesis of ammonia (fertilizers), superconductivity, chaos theory, nuclear fission, the (digital programmable electronic) computer, genetic fingerprinting, monoclonal antibodies (target cancer drugs), the structure of haemoglobin, the structure of DNA etc….,
You did however invent the DE razor and the rhino fat-arse lookalike:eek:
Regards
John
moses
08-04-2006, 03:14 PM
Well, frankly, I think the role of the US in the modern world is a little more complicated than either John or Andre is letting on. Examples. Watson and Crick would probably never have accomplished what they did except for previous work by American scientists. A european may have invented the Car, but I would argue that the US was the driving force behind its development for decades. The point is that US investment or involvement or potential market probably contributed to an awful lot of the developments that make modern life what it is, even if they did not happen here. That said, I am quite sure that if this continent never existed, the rest of the world would have gotten along just about as nicely as it has with us, so I think it is a bit arrogant to suggest that the US has really made the modern world what it is.
Gatorade
08-04-2006, 03:35 PM
Moving on – while I agree you Yanks are an inventive lot, to say that modern life is in the main due to the U.S. is over stating it massively: Here are some things that the world doesn’t owe to the U.S. ,….,
The jet engine, the motor car, the train, the rocket, radio, the web, cloning, Viagra, fuel cells, football (soccer), tennis, golf, radar, desalination, the lavatory, the mobile phone, the walkman, the smart card, the cyclone vacuum cleaner, the Workmate bench, the baby buggy, lava lamps, medical scanners, the rotary piston engine, Velcro, the seat belt, Float (Plate) glass, photography, cinema, the hologram, the ballpoint pen, Polythene, the anglepoise lamp, synthetic insulin, self-winding wrist watch, the tank, the machine gun, stainless steel, the rawlplug, neon lighting, tarmac road surface, disc brakes, catalytic converter, synthesis of ammonia (fertilizers), superconductivity, chaos theory, nuclear fission, the (digital programmable electronic) computer, genetic fingerprinting, monoclonal antibodies (target cancer drugs), the structure of haemoglobin, the structure of DNA etc….,
You did however invent the DE razor and the rhino fat-arse lookalike:eek:
Regards
John
How many of these would never have gotten off the ground or not been as big if there wasn't a US market to bring these to?
Imagine how much more America could bring to the world if we had someone else to defend us, and didn't have to spend so much on the military.
Gatorade
08-04-2006, 03:53 PM
Imagine how much more America could bring to the world if we had someone else to defend us, and didn't have to spend so much on the military.
Imagine what we could do if we didn't have to subsidize the rest of the world!:w00t:
yasuo200365
08-04-2006, 04:24 PM
The U.S. doesn't maintain a large military to defend the rest of the World - it has it to wield influence on the World.
Here in Europe we don't see the label "Made In The U.S.A" too much, in fact I don't see it that much when I'm in the U.S.
I think it would be a good idea if you reduced your military, concentrated on your industry and gave the World a rest from your good deeds...., at least until you get some leaders of calibre.
Regards
John
inkling
08-04-2006, 04:49 PM
I think it would be a good idea if you reduced your military, concentrated on your industry and gave the World a rest from your good deeds...., at least until you get some leaders of calibre.
We would gladly turn over some of our "good deeds" but no one else seems willing or able to accomplish them. Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Tsunami relief and now Iran... we'd love it if Europe would manage a crisis or two instead of just discussing them ad nauseum. :001_005:
The U.S. doesn't maintain a large military to defend the rest of the World - it has it to wield influence on the World.
Here in Europe we don't see the label "Made In The U.S.A" too much, in fact I don't see it that much when I'm in the U.S.
I think it would be a good idea if you reduced your military, concentrated on your industry and gave the World a rest from your good deeds...., at least until you get some leaders of calibre.
Regards
John
This is the very last thing I will say in this thread. It's a joke that not everyone will get, but I've been told that it's not only perfectly constructed, but quite funny, as well.
Q: Why do the English drink warm beer?
A: Lucas refridgerators!
One more thing. Before you continue to comment on American politics, need I remind you that you guys still have a Queen. Or is that just one more thing we're not enlightened enough to understand?
yasuo200365
08-05-2006, 02:37 AM
One more thing. Before you continue to comment on American politics, need I remind you that you guys still have a Queen. Or is that just one more thing we're not enlightened enough to understand?
Ouch,
Let this link enlighten you as to how another political system works:
http://bhc.britaus.net/About_the_UK/aboutukdefault.asp?id=71
For those who can’t get past the historic & cultural stuff I’ll boil it down to the important phrases:
The United Kingdom is a parliamentary democracy.
Parliament is supreme.
The UK Parliament makes primary legislature.
The Government derives its authority and membership from Parliament and can only stay in office if it is able to command a majority.
The judiciary determines common law and interprets legislation.
The Monarch acts on the advice of her ministers.
Outside the UK
The Queen is Head of State of 15 other realms.
In each country where she is Head of State, Her Majesty is represented by a Governor-General, appointed by her on the advice of the ministers of the country concerned and independent of the UK Government.
So Ouch in the U.K. and countries such as Canada & Australia the Queen as Head of State is a symbolic role to represent the nation (and possibly its values?) it is not the Presidential role that countries such as the U.S. and France have.
Personally I have republican sympathies but I would not wish (and Australia recently voted similarly) to have a Presidential system where a single person has so much political influence. I would prefer to keep to a model of a politically benign Head of State and a supreme Parliament, that way we avoid much of the politics of personality, celebrity and cult.
The system in the U.S. can for example allow your President to inflict their prejudices upon the country, i.e. you kept the equivalence of political Royal Assent; something we subsequently removed from our system. A recent example of this is George W’s veto of the Stem Cell bill, and of course there was his posturing over the constitutional amendment with regard to same sex marriage. These are all things an individual couldn’t attempt under our system ….., which I think that is a good thing.
So there you have it, I hope you have found it enlightening and as you can see we have moved on from 1776.
Regards
John
moses
08-05-2006, 07:07 AM
Ouch,
That may be the funniest thing I've read in a couple of days....
(I used to have an ancient land rover).
Shane
Ouch,
That may be the funniest thing I've read in a couple of days....
(I used to have an ancient land rover).
Shane
Anyone who has ever had a Triumph, MG, Austin, or Jaguar knows exactly what I'm talking about.:001_rolle
And John, I promise to download and print all of your references. Apparently, I have enough space to store them, ever since I organized my bookshelves. For some reason, the space I allocated for great English cookbooks remains unused.
Regards from the "American Empire". No, wait- that was your moniker.:tongue:
Andre
08-05-2006, 11:06 AM
Well John, the pint is waiting for you next time you're in Florida.
Most, if not all, of those products you named ARE American in the sense that they were either fully developed in America, rather than in their country of origin, or would have gone nowhere without an American market, or essentially reached their current levels of perfection because of American development. Very modern products in the modern world would be anything like how they are without America's direct involvement, regardless of where it might have been invented or manufactured (like the computer you are using right now).
I'm too weary of typing to address all of the issues you raise, so I just won't. Maybe one day we can talk for real.
Andre
maximus
08-05-2006, 11:28 AM
Andre, you raised a very interesting point about America's involvement in the commercial success of many modern products and it seems to me like you give the fatherland a bit too much credit. You see, America's economy supports those who create a reoccuring need for a certain product or service and that has given birth to many modern yet terrible products. For example, most people here speak against using cartridge shaving systems versus the older DE razor system. But you don't see commercially advertised and marketed DE razor systems in common conglomerates here in the U.S. because they produce a smaller need for repurchase after time has elapsed thus providing the manufactuerer with a better chance at profit. I'm no communist/socialist, but I'm also not exactly in favor of capitalist economy and government proceedings hence why I feel I must place a reasonable rebuttal to your comment on America's "absolutely magnificent contributions to our modern world."
yasuo200365
08-05-2006, 11:48 AM
For some reason, the space I allocated for great English cookbooks remains unused.
You can use it for your comics ...,:biggrin:
"This will never be a civilised country until we spend more money for books than we do for chewing gum" -Elbert Hubbard on America ( http://www.birdsnest.com/garcia.htm )
Regards
John
Anyone who has ever had a Triumph, MG, Austin, or Jaguar knows exactly what I'm talking about.:001_rolle
:
Ascari, Aston Martin, Bentley, Bristol, Invicta, Rolls Royce I wonder if America has any marques to match those?
Gatorade
08-05-2006, 11:57 AM
Ascari, Aston Martin, Bentley, Bristol, Invicta, Rolls Royce I wonder if America has any marques to match those?
Corvette. Nuff said!
Ascari, Aston Martin, Bentley, Bristol, Invicta, Rolls Royce I wonder if America has any marques to match those?
Let's not forget our two-wheeled friends- Norton, Triumph, Birmingham Small Arms, Royal Enfield. Talk about history. I'll tell you one thing- the Brits may have trouble keeping oil in their casings, but they certainly know how to put soul into their cars and bikes. My biggest mistake was selling my Vincent.:frown:
yasuo200365
08-05-2006, 12:10 PM
Corvette. Nuff said!
Exactly.
Regards
John:rolleyes:
I'll give you the Corvette in terms of sheer muscle and performance, but the cars I mentioned have a timeless elegance and refinement to go with the brute power. Apart from the Bristol, they are the ugliest cars ever made.
Andre
08-06-2006, 08:47 AM
It's sorta like the old Mac vs. PC debate. Mac users get all fired up over whether the Mac is a better system (and I make no arguement there), but very often the realities of life lead one down a differnt path. Maybe inexpensive is more important for mass appeal. Maybe more versitility is "better," even at the expense of stability or susceptability to viruses. Maybe uniformity is better, and since most people use a PC, it simply makes more sense from some point of view. "But Macs are better systems" becomes largely an irrellavant arguement in the end.
Sure, we all agree that DE's are better than the Fusion. We all wish that you could still buy brand new fatboys from Gillette. But for most men, the "trouble" of shaving just isn't worth looking beyond the easy answer. That's just life. You can own a 60's muscle car that you largely fix yourself, or a 2006 Camry that you don't have to concern yourself with repairing. The choice is yours. BETTER is never the arguement. Not everything that is better is also more practical.
And just because something is made, popularized, etc. in America, does not mean that it is the best product for the job, nor that anything else sucks in comparison. It simply means that a choice has been made. Maybe it was out of expediency, laziness, conformity, cheapness, availability, etc., but that's just life.
You can list all of the British products that are "better" than their American counterparts that you want. But it doesn't change the fact that people made a choice (maybe a bad one) to go with A instead of B. Besides, would jags be anything special is EVERYBODY drove one? Are Camry's or Ford F150's (common as mosquitos where I live) special, or just a common choice?
Andre
Andre brings up some good points. Exotic cars serve no real purpose other than as a tour de force of the company's R&D abilities.
Witness the Viper. Big deal. We can make a great $100+K car/toy. Now can we make a decent <$20K car for the masses? The fact that Toyota is poised to eclipse GM as the world's largest auto maker in the near future is a hint as to the answer.
So what do you guys drive/ride?
Toyota Camry--wife
Subaru Outback--me
We get lots of dirty looks around Detroit!
inkling
08-06-2006, 10:15 AM
So what do you guys drive/ride?
Not to brag, but I drive a '97 Honda Civic. :rolleyes:
We also bought an '03 Honda CR-V after having our second child, but that's mostly my wife's ride.
Dream car: Aston-Martin Volante. If I can just find one cheap on ebay... :lol:
:lol: CASTRO (http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2207062)
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