Another Question for the Honing Gurus!

[professorchaos]

I have this Filly which had been frustrating the hell out of me. I honed it in the following manner: 1. norton 4K to set bevel (TNT results in smooth drag), assess edge with TPT and 30x loupe. 2. Belgian Blue until the edge seems sharper with TPT and 30x loupe shows most 4k scratches have been polished out. 3. Repeat step #2 with Coticule. 4. Repeat step #3 with Chinese 12k until edge seems sharper and hair pops off it in HHT.

By the time I finished step #4, I had little doubt that this was one sharp blade. Yet it still pulled :mad: !!! So in mid shave, I gave it 20 laps on the .5 micron side pasted strop. This one little step transformed it from a major frustration to a delight! Seriously, this little Filly is now one of the smoothest, sharpest blades I have.

My question then, is where did I go wrong on the hones? Clearly I need to refine how I gauge a blade's sharpness. If I did not have the pasted paddle strop, should I have revisited the Chinese 12k? Or perhaps gone back to an even coarser hone?

Thanks!

[joel]

Well, first of all - this is my first reply ever to a thread asking for "guru, honemeister, or expert" help or the like that I can remember. I think many are a lot less comfortable responding to threads asking for help from "gurus" and the like - as frankly I (and many others) don't consider ourselves gurus.

In any event - it is my humble opinion you over-honed the blade with stones. Some fellas get WAY too serious about honing and try to make it a science with magnification - and real specific "methodology" which in my opinion takes the fun and the joy out of it (read: throw out that damn loupe :wink: ) however I think you're overdoing it a touch. The belgian blue is totally unnecessary, as a belgian coticule actually cuts as fast wet, and faster with a slurry. Now - if you're getting in to super stratosphere grits, using a ton of hones is almost a necessity, however they tend to cut WAY slower, and are much more delicate on the razors edge. A 4K Norton is a might quick cutter, and going to town with it on that, then a blue, then a yellow is a hell of a lot of honing if the edge is in good shape and popping hairs - again though, this is just my opinion. In the future, I'd suggest merely using the 4K Norton to get things in line, then jump to the coticule, which will handle things beautifully, then move to the slow cutting chinese 12k, or rub your coticule rubbing stone on the belgian blue and get a nice slurry - and bypass the coticule and go right to the 12K.

The cure for overhoning is one of two things - breaking off the wire edge, or back honing, and using an abrasive strop on a razor is in essence back honing, which means if it magically became a super razor after the paste - you overhoned the razor and all it needed was some back honing.

In any case - remember .5 micron diamond paste is also SIGNIFICANTLY finer than 12K - it's about 30K, so it's going to provide you with a much finer edge regardless.

For almost ALL of my razors I use the following 2 abrasives - 1.) DMT D8EE (cuts as fast as a 4K Norton, and leaves as nice an edge - if not nicer than an 8K Norton - and never needs to be lapped/flattened) 2.) .5 Micron Chrome Oxide paste.

Between the two I can get an edge that'll be way smoother and more face friendly than using thousands of dollars worth of hones, and spending a ton of time on the blade with all sorts of cool, fancy, and expensive hones.

I'm sure this method will never take off - as it doesn't require any stones to be soaked, the items needed are remarkably affordable, it saves a tremendous amount of time, is remarkably simple/easy to do, and the tools required aren't as "cool" as the expensive stones.... but it plumb works, and fast.

Personally - the only time I use any another stone on a regular basis is when I am honing multiple new, or like new razors at once - and in that case, I'll use a belgian coticule with a slurry, as it cuts relatively quickly for a hone of that grit, and will leave an edge that it sharp/smooth enough for 99% of the straight razor shaving population - so in honing many razors, it saves time. Nearly all other occasions, it's DMT8EE, and green chrome, as it just works... really, really well.

[heavydutysg135]

I respectfully disagree with Joel's assessment that you overhoned the blade; other than that I agree with him. In my honing video I talked about an experiment that I performed with the belgian stones in which I set a bevel with the Norton 4K then did 500 passes on the blue and 500 passes on the yellow. The blade shaved great so I did another 100 passes on the yellow again. I shaved and the blade still shaved very very well. Everyone kept telling me that the edge would become overhoned and rip my face off, but this never happened. I repeated this experiment until I got to 1200 passes on the yellow coticule and the razor was not shaving any better or worse. Unfortunately the experiment was deleted in the "Great SRP Forum Crash of '08" so you will just have to take my word for it. Later I talked to Allen at Ross Cutlery (in Los Angeles) who has over 50 years of experience sharpening razors. He told me that if you do too many passes on the coticule you will remove more metal than what is necessary but it will not damage the edge as long as proper technique is maintained. With the belgian stones your edge will reach a certain quality and then just level off. The more passes you do on the belgians the more metal you will remove and the more chance there is of you messing up your stroke and ruining the edge, but in my experience you will not overhone the edge just because of too many passes.

Your honing technique/sequence sounds very good to me, but I also use a similar "scientific" process as you will see in my video next week. I don't use a microscope, I hold the edge into the light and look at the shine/scratch pattern; but otherwise my technique is fairly similar. The one thing that I would say is that the steel in Filarmonica razors is very high quality and very hard. All else equal it will take more work to polish the edge of one of these razors than a razor of softer steel in a similar grind. Since the chromium oxide improved the edge a significant amount I would guess that you did not do quite enough work on the yellow coticule. I would have done another 50-100 passes and shave tested again. See if you make any improvement and keep test shaving and touching up 25-50 passes on the yellow until you don't get any more improvement. I am assuming that you already know that you need to polish at the same angle that you set the bevel at (with tape or without). Make sure that you give the razor enough time on the leather as well (at least 50 good passes). Obviously, I am not saying that this is the best or only way to do it, but that is my approach.

David

[professorchaos]

Well darn! Two different answers from two well respected members, both of whom have considerably experience honing. I guess if it was easy, everyone would be doing it...

I feel like I should take a methodical approach to honing until I develop the skills and knowledge to interpret feedback from the razor, hone and various tests. At this rate, I'll have a honing journal :eek: before too long. I am using the Beligans because they provide a tremendous amount of feedback. I also have a DMT D8EE which I have put aside for its lack of feedback while I get better evaluating and gauging an edge's progress. For what it is worth, I am not "philosophically" opposed to using pastes to finish an edge and use them to maintain my pre-honed razors. Rather, if I am going to learn how to hone, I intend to be able to take a straight from dull as a spoon to shave ready using only hones.

Again, gentlemen, thank you for your input - whether you consider yourself a guru, a meister or a neophyte.

[TOB9595]

I value all the replies and hope to see some more...Tho it's tuff to post after these
hahaha
TOm

[mparker762]

4. Repeat step #3 with Chinese 12k until edge seems sharper and hair pops off it in HHT.

By the time I finished step #4, I had little doubt that this was one sharp blade. Yet it still pulled :mad: !!!

I am not a guru by any stretch but FWIW: the HHT is not a guarantor of a happy shave - it just tells you that you're in the general vicinity of shave-ready. You need to do a shave test to really tell for sure and adjust from there - which is exactly what you did. The only significant error that I can see is the excessive faith in the HHT so common in beginners, and you probably won't fall into that error again.

Joel's right that you can get a heck of a shave by using a coarse grit hone then polishing the heck out of it with a pasted strop. Prof Voerhoeven examined this in his treatise using a 4k hone and 0.5 micron chrome oxide IIRC and the edges looked great under the electron microscope - every bit as good as the edges that were taken through a more gradual progression to the chrome oxide. I've gotten great shaves by setting the bevel with the 1k Shapton then polishing it smooth and sharp on a boron carbide hanging strop; for the second and subsequent honings the 4k shapton/boron carbide sequence works fine and is even quicker.

[jlander]

Up front..I am no guru (about anything).

But I have 3 Fillys that have all liked the same treatment. They were NOS and had a good starter edge when I took them out of the box. 20 laps on a Norton 4K, 30 on the 8K, then 20 on a Black Lithide. All 3 felt harsh after this so, 20 passes on green chrome and they feel like butter. I do not know if I over honed before going to the GC, but all 3 really got more civilized afterward. I don't use a loop any more, just see how they feel.

[heavydutysg135]

If you have a good honing question there is a good chance that you will get several different approaches. This is one reason why honing is so much fun :smile:

[Thebigspendur]

Was this a new razor when you got it? If so my question would be why did you have to set the bevel? was there something wrong with it? Most new and NOS razor don't need to have the bevel set unless it was damaged in storage or its a used razor. However, assuming it was new or NOS I probably wouldn't have used the 4K. A few strokes on the 8K and then on to the coticule. The filly is known to take some extra time to get honed up.

[riooso]

I am certainly not a guru. I hone for one reason and that is to shave with a really sharp razor. When I first started I read a lot of opinions and what I came away with is that Joel is spot on most of the time.
At his suggestion I bough a DMT8EE and a Tony 4 sided strop with pastes down to 0.25 and have never looked back. I can maintain 4 razors with ease and they cut like butter. My touch is extremely light, I get no burns and my skin is like a baby butt. I have at war with the skin on my face for 40 years and now it is, well, a relief to shave with a straight.
Speaking for myself this honing thing, on a modern razor, is not as difficult as everyone is making it out to be. I have had extremely good luck and I feel it is because of the common sense approach that the DMT "system" allows me. Less is more in my book and it is serving me well.

My two cents,
Richard Adams

[heavydutysg135]

Was this a new razor when you got it? If so my question would be why did you have to set the bevel? was there something wrong with it? Most new and NOS razor don't need to have the bevel set unless it was damaged in storage or its a used razor. However, assuming it was new or NOS I probably wouldn't have used the 4K. A few strokes on the 8K and then on to the coticule. The filly is known to take some extra time to get honed up.

This is definately true, I assumed that original poster knew when he had to go to the 4K and when it was not necessary. Anyway, with the NOS Filarmonica razors that I have honed, just 100 passes on the yellow coticule was enough to get the razors shave ready. No work on courser stones was needed.

[professorchaos]

Was this a new razor when you got it? If so my question would be why did you have to set the bevel? was there something wrong with it? Most new and NOS razor don't need to have the bevel set unless it was damaged in storage or its a used razor. However, assuming it was new or NOS I probably wouldn't have used the 4K. A few strokes on the 8K and then on to the coticule. The filly is known to take some extra time to get honed up.

Had I known then what I know now...:eek:

Like all the other new straights I have gotten, I gave the Filly perhaps 20-30 laps on the Coticule. In my prior experience with both NOS and new blades, this seemed sufficient to get razor shave ready. Not so with this Filly. So I tried the Belgian Blue then Coticule. Not sharp. So I threw the DMT D8EE at it. No avail. To be frank, I did not know if the 4k was really required. I just wanted a clean start, to undo what I had done. I guess I was being too conservative with the hones and lap count. Not necessarially a bad thing, just frustrating.

BTW, honing is MUCH more fun when you are successful at it!!

[EL Alamein]

I think you effectively figured it out. All the blade really needed was some back honing. FWIW back honing smoothes the edge out pretty nice. Forward honing, I find, should only be about 5 to 7 strokes after you've set the edge by back honing. Then take it to the pasted strop if you desire for that highly polished edge. Hope that helps.

Chris

[RayG]

I think you effectively figured it out. All the blade really needed was some back honing. FWIW back honing smoothes the edge out pretty nice. Forward honing, I find, should only be about 5 to 7 strokes after you've set the edge by back honing. Then take it to the pasted strop if you desire for that highly polished edge. Hope that helps.

Chris

I had a similar experience today. My question is: If stropping on the 0.5 paste effectively "backhoned" or broke off the wire edge, would it be necessary to take the razor back to the hone, or would the stropping (say I stropped it 25 times on chrome oxide) have effectively smoothed out the edge after the wire edge was broken off?

[joke1176]

I'm no guru either, more like a honing novice (4 months and counting); I have gotten excellent shaves after Chrome Ox. "backhoning" without going back to the finish hone.

The edges I refine like this do seem to break down a little bit faster than straight from the hone sharp, but not too bad. I bet if you looked at the edge with an electron microscope, you would see a thicker, more rounded edge where you knocked down the wire-edge as compared to the honed edge. There's an article circulating around that has something like that in it, actually.

If you have the touch to do the finish hone strokes properly like EL Alamein stated, go for it; it's the right thing to do. If you doubt your skills though, let it ride!

That's the fun and frustration of honing a razor, soo many variables.

[EL Alamein]

I had a similar experience today. My question is: If stropping on the 0.5 paste effectively "backhoned" or broke off the wire edge, would it be necessary to take the razor back to the hone, or would the stropping (say I stropped it 25 times on chrome oxide) have effectively smoothed out the edge after the wire edge was broken off?

I don't know. My gut tells me that back honing on a stone will give you smoother results than just using a pasted strop. Of course, backhoning on a stone, then forward honing on a stone for a few strokes VERY lightly then polishing on a pasted strop will give the best results for those that want the uber sharp razors. But even then the uber sharp edges don't last as long as stone only edges. And to me aren't as skin friendly no matter how smooth they are. But YMMV.

Chris

[Thebigspendur]

Backhoning means backhoning on a stone. With a pasted strop even though yes it technically is backhoning you have to do it that way otherwise you would destroy the strop. So using a pasted strop in the same manner you would backhone on a stone will not do the same thing. Its kind of like running over a cat with your car. Putting the car in reverse and running over him again will not reconstitute him it will make it worse even though the motion is reversed. (how's that for a visual) Or another way of putting it is using the strop will continue to sharpen the razor.

[joke1176]

Backhoning means backhoning on a stone. With a pasted strop even though yes it technically is backhoning you have to do it that way otherwise you would destroy the strop. So using a pasted strop in the same manner you would backhone on a stone will not do the same thing. Its kind of like running over a cat with your car. Putting the car in reverse and running over him again will not reconstitute him it will make it worse even though the motion is reversed. (how's that for a visual) Or another way of putting it is using the strop will continue to sharpen the razor.

Why do you hate cats so much? :eek: