Non MS Computer Operating Systems. [Archive]

Ashe

07-29-2006, 07:13 AM

Interesting thread!

My main "gaming" computer namd Guttlekraw is running Windows XP. Since I don't like dual boot I have an external hard disk on which I have Slackware installed that I can boot easily as well.
Both my corporate (work) laptop and my own laptop (Picknose) run Windows XP as well.
My fileserver (documents, photos, music and movies), named Oddbit, runs Slackware 10.0.
My home firewall (Two-Edge) runs OpenBSD 3.8.
I've been thinking about placing an extra machine to perform IDS on my home network (named Wile-Eye), but I'm moving away from that idea.
My wireless AP is called Wadsack and will eventually take over firewalling as well once I decide to spare some electricity and turn of Two-Edge or when I decide to not go for an OpenBSD firewall on a Soekris box.

Fileserver will soon be decommisioned as well seen the fact that it only serves files for the 3 hours a day I'm online during the week.

I love alternative operating systems and I tend to use the OS for what it was mainly created for.

Like you I'm also interested in other peoples' preferences.

Jonnybc

07-29-2006, 08:41 AM

I'm a mac user so I only really get one OS, OS X10.4 I think. I have heard that with a little tweaking you can install OS X on a PC. Has anyone tried this?

NMMB

07-29-2006, 08:49 AM

Like John, I'm a mac user and I run OSX10.4... and, as I've heard mac users say "once you go mac, you'll never go back" :biggrin:

Tito

07-29-2006, 09:21 AM

I am a Apple user too... OS 7- OSX 10.4 waiting for 10.5 in a couple of weeks. I'm also waiting for the Apple WWDC to see what is announced then I'm going to take the plunge on an Intel Core Duo 2 Mac Mini for media and DVR stuff.

At work we are Win XP for accounting packages. So I'm looking forward to dual boot system of the new Apples also.

mrob

07-29-2006, 09:40 AM

I'm a long time Apple user--since 1985 or so--and am currently running 10.4.7 on my MacBook Pro.

BTW--I made the switch to a laptop for home and work and am loving it--anyone else a laptop only user?

majkeli

07-29-2006, 10:11 AM

My main machine at home is Ubuntu Linux, my gaming machine is Windows XP, my personal laptop is a 12" Powerbook (OSX 10.4), my work laptop is Windows XP. I also run a Windows 2003 server, and I just decommisioned a Gentoo Linux server.

I'm a Microsoft .NET developer so I find myself using Windows XP most of the day, but it's nice to switch out to linux and OSX whn I get home.

mrob

07-29-2006, 11:24 AM

Wouldn't your MS bosses be angry to know you use a Mac at home?:wink:

designwise1

07-29-2006, 11:41 AM

You've probably already heard this... according to MacWorld magazine, Win XP runs better (faster and more stable) on the new Intel Macintosh computers. :biggrin: Why yes, I am a Mac user. Since 1988. I switched to a PC long enough to hate Win 98 - then right back to Mac. They may cost a little more but there's no comparison.
Stepping off my soapbox,

fuerein

07-29-2006, 11:49 AM

Currently I'm working on an cheap Dell loaded w/ XP, though when I actually get around to replacing it, I'm really considering a Mac. I only hate that my software will be unusable on it unless I am able to use the windows emulator which drops performance. Bummer.

Flyer

07-29-2006, 03:58 PM

Tablet is running XP tablet.
The laptop is running XP Home.

TheYoshi

07-29-2006, 04:32 PM

I use a mac, I'm a recent switcher... I've been through the various windows iterations and many of the linux iterations as well as a few other *nix OS/S (solaris, etc.) Having experienced them all I will not be going away from OS/X in the foreseeable future. It's like solving all of the windows suckage without any of the potential linux headaches, but all of the control.

Creslin

07-29-2006, 04:49 PM

In Feb. I had my hard drive crash and didn't have a copy of windows. Rather than pay 300$ for XP Pro I bought Suse 10.0 for 60$. I like it. Don't know enough about computers to do a lot with it as far as tweaking but I'm gradually learning.

Here is a good forum community for Linux. The people here are very knowledgable. www.linuxquestions.org

jduffy

07-29-2006, 06:05 PM

TheChefs

07-29-2006, 09:22 PM

vputz

07-29-2006, 09:50 PM

If it weren't for games, I'd use my Gentoo Linux partition, but for games I have XP still. My server runs Linux. My DVR runs Linux. My $60 router runs Linux. My $60 NAS-appliance-turned-server runs Linux. My handheld runs Linux. My cluster of old discarded computers runs Linux...

(there's a trend here...)

Jonnybc

07-30-2006, 01:06 AM

mark the shoeshine boy

07-30-2006, 05:34 AM

you boys keep talking and i will just do the "oprah thing" and say ...uh-huh...uh-huh...and keep listening...

I am just lucky to get online with my knowledge.....but i'll but in if i have a question.

mark the shoeshine boy

madmedic

07-30-2006, 08:28 AM

I have been using Ubuntu now for awhile and it's pretty impressive. Everything is there that I need. They also have a great forum community that can help you if you get in a jam. Not quite as friendly as Badger & Blade but they're up there.

Just out of interest......how well is Ubuntu integrated? SUSE's menus are very good.....but initial impressions on 10.1 are not good. From what I have seen of Ubuntu...that might be a better option.

Brian

TheChefs

07-30-2006, 07:36 PM

Just out of interest......how well is Ubuntu integrated? SUSE's menus are very good.....but initial impressions on 10.1 are not good. From what I have seen of Ubuntu...that might be a better option.

Brian

It has very good integration. That's one of the reasons why I like it, it's very polished. You can try the live CD without installing it and see if you like it.

piperc

07-30-2006, 08:27 PM

I have Win XP home on both mine and my wife's laptops. I used to have a Linux box as the home gateway and fileserver until I needed to donate it to a friend.

All in all, I'm a Linux user held hostage in a MS world.:frown:

mr_economy

07-30-2006, 10:42 PM

Running Ubuntu 6.06 (Dapper Drake) on both my laptop and desktop machines. I've been vastly impressed with it, particularly with hardware support vis-a-vis my laptop - this is the first distribution of Linux yet to properly detect my widescreen display and integrated Intel wireless card. Also, as jduffy mentioned, the Ubuntu user community cannot be beat - there is a tutorial for just about anything one might want to do.

letterk

07-31-2006, 10:13 AM

XP at work desktop, home desktop, and home laptop.
Had a Mac Mini but sold it because I just didn't use it much due to not having the proper software for it. Great little computer.
Our development server is Debian box.
Our hosted production server is some sort of Linux (haven't had the need to find out what, but I'm sure my partners know.)

I'd prefer to be Unix only, but until the software catches up, I'm a slave to Windows. I'd think about a dual boot Mac, though...

scarface

07-31-2006, 10:49 AM

I have XP Pro and UBUNTU on my Desktop, XP Pro on my Work Desktop and XP Home on my Laptop.

I do like the look of the Mac's however I personally hate using Mac OSX...ya ya ya its easier:001_rolle or so they say but for me its just doesnt do it.

Ubuntu was really easy to learn an dthey have a great community to fall back on if you ever get stuck. You can order a cd for free from them and they'll ship you a live cd and a full install CD.

For those of you who are worried about installing and using Linux give the Live CD a try. IT'll let you get a feel fo rthe interface of Ubuntu before you go for a full blown install.

Now only if PC's could catch up with Mac's styling the world would be a better place.

mrob

07-31-2006, 11:21 AM

Amen to that. Now if Apple would just hurry up and come out with that cell phone that's been rumored for so long. . .

check it out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3168733759916419298

It would be even cooler if it was real!:biggrin:

vputz

07-31-2006, 12:58 PM

You like linux then?

Hey, YOU pay for Windows licenses for 13 computers then! (grin--not fair of course, because it doesn't cover the router, handheld, and NAS, but the point remains the same).

Besides, I love having little tiny devices with no screen or keyboard and virtually no power consumption, yet which happily serve up web pages and ssh prompts... that's just cool!

Tito

07-31-2006, 01:58 PM

Mitch!!!

Don't do that :lol: . You know that WWDC is only a few days away and I can hardly take it. They reveal all the cool new stuff then and as of late it's been a bit hum-drum. I'm still waiting on the iMedia Mac.

mrob

07-31-2006, 05:09 PM

I can't help it! I want Apple to make a phone so bad I can taste it.

Do it Apple--just do it!

Wolfman

07-31-2006, 05:31 PM

My main system is a Mac. My PC's have ubuntu on them. Was a previous Slacker with Slackware.

Windows has been banned in my house. You just shouldn't be forced to have to run various sorts of scanners for viri, mal/spyware and trojans on your system. It eats up system resources that should be devoted to the application that you want to run. But, Windows users still make me lots of money when they cry and need help. :D

TheYoshi

07-31-2006, 06:19 PM

I use Ubuntu at home on my old latop, XP/Ubuntu on my main PC, but I don't use it much. At work I use Ubuntu, CentOS and Red Hat. Considering that I've grew up on linux, solaris, sco unix, irix and other I don't really have any need to try OSX. I'm thinking about getting new laptop at the moment and one of the options is Apple, but I would still use linux on it 99% of the time.

Believe it or not I priced out a Dell and a macbook with the same (or close to the same specs) the macbook was actually about $100 cheaper and IMO a far better computer from a hardware standpoint. The Dell's I see co-workers use suck, they just feel flimsy, the macs always feel very solid and well built.

What's funny to think is that 3-4 years ago I would have called anyone using a mac a fool.... times change.

murchmb

07-31-2006, 08:05 PM

I started to switch from Microsoft back in 2001 or so when I bought a Ti Powerbook. I made the full switch last year with the purchase of a Powermac G5 system. The wife's not crazy about it, but she doesn't realize the total absence of virus and spyware problems (or the wonderful Unix-y underpinnings). I'm running the almost most recent version of OSX Tiger BTW.

Ashe

08-01-2006, 01:12 PM

I will be selling all my computers listed above once Apple comes out with a third gen of their Intel based laptops. Then I can be rather sure that the hardware, design and OS are better "finished." It's never advised to buy a first or second gen hardware model if such a swith towards Intel takes place.

I must admit I do love the design of all of their computers, and I think MacOSX is a very nice OS from a layout perspective but I when I buy a new computer, I want it to be finished without the small and big diseases of a new gen computer.

Once I have a Mac and my computers are sold, I will buy either a PS3, XBOX360 or a WII (maybe a combination) to satisfy my gaming needs although it has been a few months ago since I turned on a PC or PS2 based game.

Leslie

08-01-2006, 01:55 PM

I will be selling all my computers listed above once Apple comes out with a third gen of their Intel based laptops. Then I can be rather sure that the hardware, design and OS are better "finished." It's never advised to buy a first or second gen hardware model if such a swith towards Intel takes place.

I too am waiting for the next iteration of MacBooks. Right now, I'm stuck with a Powerbook G4 which works fine, but is getting a little bogged down by some of my more power-hungry applications.

I look forward to having a computer that can run any OS. Even though I'll do 99% of my work in OS X, I'll still probably go nuts and install both Windows and Ubuntu anyway. :tongue_sm

Jonnybc

08-01-2006, 02:13 PM

I have a twin 2.3ghz PowerPC G5 and I'm often stunned by it's performance compared to the PCs at work and my 1ghz iBook. If apple apply the Intel technology in the way that the have with the MacBook then they will be dazzlingly fast!

Ashe

08-01-2006, 02:47 PM

John, I do agree with you with the performance of the PowerPC G5 etc but the issue that Apple will now have is that the exact same power is available for all PC's, making it harder for Apple to distinguish themselves from the rest on that area.

However seen the fact that Apple masters trendsetting, creating completely new markets with some of their products and use superior product designs etc, I think Apple will remain successfull, even when using hardware that is available for other types of computers.

Leslie

08-01-2006, 04:37 PM

Indeed, Apple was motivated to finally switch to Intel because IBM (producers of G5 PowerPC chips) wasn't increasing their chips' speeds fast enough to keep up with Intel and AMD. Apple needed to switch to Intel chips in order to stay competitive. Being in the field of Mac software development myself, I was a little terrified of the switch at first. But these days, things are looking better than ever for the Mac. :)

mrob

08-01-2006, 05:42 PM

As nice as the Intel chips have been for Apple, for me the real advantage to the Mac is the elegance of the user experience.

Whenever I need to work on a PC, I'm bummed by the clunkiness of the feel of the OS--it just seems more awkward and not nearly as user-friendly. And God help you if you need to do anything but run your software--installation, deleting a program; it all seems to require an advanced degree or an IT consultant to get it straightened out.

My university has pretty dismal computer support for Mac users, but fortunately it doesn't really matter. When I got my new MacBook Pro, it took about an hour to transfer all of my data and files from my TiBook, and the user experience was *exactly* the same on the new machine as the old one--except faster, especially on Universal apps.

And while I agree intellectually with Ashe on waiting for gen 2 or 3 machines to work the kinks out, I must confess that I'm happy to be an early adopter--I'll put up with a few growing pains and excellent customer service (Apple is replacing a supposedly defective battery on my MBP, and it will be fast, free and painless) for the joy of having this new machine in my hot little hands NOW!!!:biggrin:

Wolfman

08-01-2006, 07:58 PM

Shermdog

08-02-2006, 12:11 PM

I use a Mac too. I will never go back to Microsuck.

Tito

08-03-2006, 10:28 PM

Think Different Ads (http://www.redlightrunner.com/appleads.html)

AVB19Peace

08-06-2006, 02:47 PM

Apple Macintosh OS X 10.4.7

Peace,

AVB

Tito

08-07-2006, 05:31 PM

Mac people check this out WWDC Keynote (http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/aug_2006/event/index.html) :drool:

AVB19Peace

08-07-2006, 06:17 PM

Mac people check this out WWDC Keynote (http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/aug_2006/event/index.html) :drool:
The Mac Pro is awesome. Not for your average consumer, but when you're doing video, it will do quite nice. Now if Adobe would quit playing games and create native binaries for After Effects, Photoshop, etc...then everything will be great.

There's some great new features and tweaks with the latest OS, OS X 10.5 Leopard, that will be coming out. Check it out: Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/)

Ashe

08-08-2006, 01:55 PM

While I do like MacOS X, I must say that from what can be seen in the keynote, this new release is the least interesting one since the birth of MacOS X and it's new releases.

Tito

08-08-2006, 08:00 PM

I too was a little let down. But I guess they did just rework their entire product line and that's no small feat. Does anyone else feel that Apple now has turned the corner so to speak with the masses? And do you think that this time it will take?

TheYoshi

08-08-2006, 08:12 PM

While I do like MacOS X, I must say that from what can be seen in the keynote, this new release is the least interesting one since the birth of MacOS X and it's new releases.

I agree with you and did feel a little let down, that said they did outright say that there were some new functionalities that were being kept under wraps until release. I think for the most part the things they talked about at WWDC were new/better toolsets for 3rd party developers to use (WWDC does after all stand for World Wide Developers Conference)... I don't think that his Steveness has pulled the rabbit completely out of the hat yet for this iteration of OS/X if anything I'd say we've just seen the ears.

AVB19Peace

08-08-2006, 09:34 PM

I'm new here, but I gotta get in this. You guys have been spoiled with Mac OS X. :smile: Like TheYoshi has stated, this is the WWDC, not MacWorld or soon to be MacExpo. Those are the places for the "One more thing" types of releases.

Saying that, we haven't seen everything with 10.5 yet. They can't give everything away so Microsoft can try to imitate it when they finally release Vista in 2010. The new features and tweaks look like they have great production value. If you don't use the features built into OS X, then they won't seem that useful, but I do and think they will add to my productivity.

64-Bit (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/64bit.html) - Built for both Intel and PowerPC processors so both get to take advantage of it.

Time Machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html) - OS X is damn stable as it is, but how cool is it to have a built in backup system? This thing will back up your entire system and do incremental backups. You can also retrieve individual files instead of having to turn back your entire system to a previous state which never really worked that well.

iChat (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ichat.html) - Being able to video chat with screen sharing opens up a ton of possiblities. Showing a Keynote presentation while you're video conferencing is awesome. Built right into the OS, no third party junk which people try to do with PowerPoint. The background and video effects are for consumers to goof around. Keep in mind, Apple once again, is the first to adapt technology and make them standard in their machines with the iSight camera built in.

iCal (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ical.html) - Being able to share calendars, schedule meetings, equipment, check user availability, etc...is a great thing that a lot of people want and need to do. I dig iCal as it is, but having this capability is great and built into the OS. No third party software to have to do this. My previous boss spent $5,000. on Scheduall to do this and was Windows only, didn't have internet features and couldn't do quite a bit. That was the $10,000. version of scheduall.

IMHO, Apple has the most stable OS built on UNIX. The best looking (will be even better in Leopard) and most userfriendly OS out there. The most secure OS with not one (maybe one) true virus that's been written. For almost a third of the price of Windows (depending on which version out of the 8 or 10 they have out), it's a no brainer to upgrade. Remember, this is all built into the OS, so you don't have to add on third party software just to get going on what most people need to do.

Not to mention, when you get a Mac and want to do what most people do nowadays, it just works. It's hard to beat that on it's own, but Apple seems to do it.

Wolfman

08-09-2006, 12:09 AM

Leopard looks fantastic! Quite a few things will be kept under wraps due to the great copy machine up in Redmond. I just ordered a Mac Pro today. Nuff said... :w00t:

Ashe

08-09-2006, 01:54 AM

I thought the "Redmon, start your photocopiers" was again rather unprofessional. While I always have had admiration for Apple for me it's becoming less of an interesting company to buy products from seen their attitude. I will leave out the "irregularities" that have been found on their financial side. The once so clean Apple company seems to be not so clean after all but anyway, let's not jump to conclusions and let's await the extra investigations. Anyway, this is the IT industry where alot is being copied from eachother. Apple certainly is not the holy grail when it comes down to copying. They all learn from the pro's and con's of functionalities in different Operating Systems and know what eventually works and what does not. It's only normal that a company includes that what seems to work, otherwise their business model wouldn't be correct.

The "it just works" is a very good statement if you only limit yourself to specific hardware that Apple does support fine. Considering the huge amount of hardware that Microsoft supports I'd say that's pretty damn impressive too from Microsoft.

The "possible" combinations were ridiculous. Okay, there are more possible combinations compared to their old product line but come on, is it really that "wonderful"? Every commercial vendor has much more configuration possibilities than those listed by Apple.

Wat Steve mentioned was incorrect: MacOSX was not all of a sudden ported to Intel architecture, as far as I know it was developed in parallel which is a huge difference but of course that's less impressive to state.

The comparisons with Vista that were made by the SVP of Software Engineering were ridiculous from what I could see from the keynote (the keynote stream was cut off a few minutes after the SE SVP was doing his thing but I assume the guy only mentioned a couple of things that Microsoft has been working on). Microsoft has done some major changes in Vista but those aren't really touched upon (normal since it's not a MS WWDC).

Anyway, despite the fact that I do like their products and the OS I think they need to refocus their presentations towards the outside and have a more professional attitude.

AVB19Peace

08-09-2006, 06:26 AM

I will leave out the "irregularities" that have been found on their financial side. The once so clean Apple company seems to be not so clean after all but anyway, let's not jump to conclusions and let's await the extra investigations.
Typical, Apple has one thing or one so-called virus and it's all over the news, but people seem to forget the hundreds of thousands of known viruses on Windows and they're, oh so, squeaky clean business practices. Do we really want to get into what Microsoft's business practices are and have been?

The "it just works" is a very good statement if you only limit yourself to specific hardware that Apple does support fine.

This statement is completely false. That's my whole point of using Apple. Interested in purchasing ProTools with an MBox? Yep, just about any Mac will do. Plug it in and it works. PC side? Sure, once you wade through the two pages of configurations that only will work with certain chip sets, etc... Just got a new or old external hard drive, digital camera, digital video camera, scanner, printer, etc... Plug them in and they work. You want it to be simple to network and print wirelessly? Using OS X, it can't be easier.

Considering the huge amount of hardware that Microsoft supports I'd say that's pretty damn impressive too from Microsoft.

IMHO, this is what's wrong with using Windows. I blame Microsoft because I don't like them, but really a lot of it has to do with all this third-party crap that's out there. Yes, there's some good stuff, but anybody can open up "X Company Computers" and think they can build and sell them. And of course, I'm sure they're abiding by what Microsoft sets for their quality standards. :rolleyes:

Business wise, yep, Microsoft & Bill Gates made a ton of money and they "won" which is the only thing he cared about no matter what the cost, but Windows and the average consumer is the one paying for it literally and metaphorically.

Anyway, despite the fact that I do like their products and the OS I think they need to refocus their presentations towards the outside and have a more professional attitude.

This was not MacWorld or MacExpo showing off the new iPod. It's the World Wide Developer Conference. It's called, playin' to your base.

Ashe

08-09-2006, 07:06 AM

Typical, Apple has one thing or one so-called virus and it's all over the news, but people seem to forget the hundreds of thousands of known viruses on Windows and they're, oh so, squeaky clean business practices. Do we really want to get into what Microsoft's business practices are and have been?I agree with you, my statement was a bit too close minded, my apologies.

This statement is completely false. That's my whole point of using Apple. Interested in purchasing ProTools with an MBox? Yep, just about any Mac will do. Plug it in and it works. PC side? Sure, once you wade through the two pages of configurations that only will work with certain chip sets, etc... Just got a new or old external hard drive, digital camera, digital video camera, scanner, printer, etc... Plug them in and they work. You want it to be simple to network and print wirelessly? Using OS X, it can't be easier.I'm not sure whether I understand what you mean. The days where it took the average or popular hardware to be configured using multiple pages of options are behind us. Even exotic hardware is fairly well recognized from the moment you plug it in.

IMHO, this is what's wrong with using Windows. I blame Microsoft because I don't like them, but really a lot of it has to do with all this third-party crap that's out there. Yes, there's some good stuff, but anybody can open up "X Company Computers" and think they can build and sell them. And of course, I'm sure they're abiding by what Microsoft sets for their quality standards. :rolleyes: No comments on that. :-)

This was not MacWorld or MacExpo showing off the new iPod. It's the World Wide Developer Conference. It's called, playin' to your base.Regardless of the type of audience your conferences are directed to, I think a company like Apple should always retain the same attitude. Seen the amount of hype surrounding Apple, regarding of the type of conference, they should broadcast one consistent attitude. WWDC summaries in the forms of articles are not only read by developers etc.

For the rest I do like the products that Apple ships, I just thought the WWDC conference attitude was a bit over the edge but that's my opinion of course. :001_smile

AVB19Peace

08-09-2006, 07:42 AM

I'm not sure whether I understand what you mean. The days where it took the average or popular hardware to be configured using multiple pages of options are behind us. Even exotic hardware is fairly well recognized from the moment you plug it in.

If that's the case, then I'm not sure I understand what you mean by:

The "it just works" is a very good statement if you only limit yourself to specific hardware that Apple does support fine.

I wasn't talking about the manual configuration that is so fun like in Windows 2000. I'm talking about how for the most part you don't have to think if something will work or be compatible on a Mac.

The multiple pages I was discussing was for a specific product like ProTools with MBox. We wanted to purchase it, I looked at it and basically any Mac that was built all the way to a G3 would work. My boss (engineer) wanted me to look for PC side because he thinks they're cheaper and we had one already in the room. There are tons of things to wade through to see if it would work. Certain chip sets, graphics cards, etc...wouldn't work. You almost had to be an engineer just to see if you could purchase the software. Needless to say it didn't work on the Windows machine and hummed right along on a 4 year old Mac at the time and is still running.

That's one example, but there are numerous others that people go through on the Windows side which I feel is unacceptable, but a lot of people do because that's all they know and think "that's just computers."

You're right about Apple having an attitude, but I think they almost have to when you have 6% of the market share. If not, then you will just disappear. I'm pretty sure Linux users and developers have the same attitude towards their OS compared to Windows.

stropmegently

08-09-2006, 10:05 AM

My wife and I are laptop only users and don't think we would ever go back to a true desktop. We switched to a Mac about a year and half ago and would never go back! I like the idea of the duel processor with the ability to run windows and associated programs on a Mac, but an interesting secondary viewpoint came up. If you install windows on your Mac, you must keep up with the updates and patches from MS or else you could be a risk for the typical windows viruses. Part of the reason I left the world of PCs is because of the virus issue. I would hate to then infect my Mac due to that. There is only one program that I want and need and use that is PC only. I currently run that on my old desktop and if needed, I would buy a cheap laptop to replace that if needed before attempting to install and run windows on my Mac. I love my mac and don't want to screw it up with windows and windows based issues.

Darren

Ashe

08-09-2006, 10:45 AM

I replied from work but it seems it didn't make it in the forum or I never pressed the final button. :001_smile

The bottomline of my message was: XP in overall has very good support and alot of hardware works fine out of the box without any special configuration steps. Considering the huge userbase and all the hardware that is available, I think XP does a very good job in recognizing and making hardware work from the moment you plug it in.

Regarding the ProTools: I don't know the product but the only thing I can say is that products tend to be designed for specific platforms. This however does not mean that that is the only platform it is able to work on. I'm sure that if I did a little research I could easily find other software/hardware that is able to work perfectly by just plugging in a Windows box while extensive manual configuration would be needed on Apple but let's not go there.

Once Apple's possible combinations (:wink:) will expand when other products are released and once Apple gains more marketshare, they too will be having much more compatibility problems but that is a guess on my end so don't take it very seriously.

In the end it all comes down to using the right tool for the job, regardless of hardware, software and operating system. If based on those requirements one decides to go for UNIX, Windows, Mac, Linux, whatever, then that's a good decision.

I agree with you that if you have a very small marketshare, one of the better ways to gain media attention is to scream to the public and compare your product with others (and make some nasty remarks), however this only has a limited impact to the big public. Eventually the great public will notice when there's a serious market shift going on by talking with relatives and friends and reading magazines, but I don't think the great public is waiting for one company to ridicule the other, regardless of its marketshare.

AVB19Peace

08-09-2006, 01:25 PM

Regarding the ProTools: I don't know the product but the only thing I can say is that products tend to be designed for specific platforms. This however does not mean that that is the only platform it is able to work on.
You're absolutely right and in this one case, the product is geared more towards Windows now. ProTools is a professional audio application which was bought by Avid. Avid killed their Mac video editing line when NT came out and thought it was cheaper. They've brought it back, but still definitely a Windows type of company.

I'm sure that if I did a little research I could easily find other software/hardware that is able to work perfectly by just plugging in a Windows box while extensive manual configuration would be needed on Apple but let's not go there.
Of course some things work plug-n-play on Windows. I gave one example and stated there are numerous others. Please don't insult my intelligence by insinuating that I cherry picked one product to prove a point. I've been using computers, including Mac and Windows way too long for that. I've been using them in a professional production environment including video post production, compositing, motion graphics design, DVD design & authoring, video compression and professional audio.

You seem to know quite a bit about Windows XP, but your points on OS X are wrong so it leads me to believe that (a) You haven't used any kind of third-party hardware on your Mac to experience the ease of use or (b) you don't use OS X and are speaking from a Windows only background giving wrong information. There's a lot of wrong information being spread on the internet and being a Mac user, I like to correct it so people can make an informed decision on what computer they would like to use.

The original point you stated, is that, it only "just works" if it's Mac hardware which is the exact opposite of what really goes on in OS X. Some other examples, plug in a USB camera into Windows XP and you still have to find a USB driver, not to mention there's no software to use it. Try using a FireWire device and see how well that goes on a regular basis. Hook up a wireless router and wireless printer. The main response I get from that is "you don't know anything about computers." RIGHT! I would've been a Computer Science major if I wanted to.

My point was with "it just works" is that all those things do just work on a Mac and all of those have software built right into the operating system that works great and is very user friendly for the average consumer. Windows users are constantly having to buy software to get anything to work and I think it's wrong.

I agree with you that if you have a very small marketshare, one of the better ways to gain media attention is to scream to the public and compare your product with others (and make some nasty remarks), however this only has a limited impact to the big public.
I agree and disagree with you on this. You might be giving too much credit to the big public. It's worked for Fox News and their agenda.

Respectfully

TheYoshi

08-09-2006, 02:08 PM

Ok without jumping in guns blazing here let me start with two points of background:

1. for years I HATED macs, this was the system 7, 8, 9 and even early stages of osx years.

2. about 2 years ago I switched to a mac, and I am now a giant mac fanboy.

With that bit of background out of the way, I just say that I do agree that it's a bit risky to open up both barrels at MS like that both from a public perception standpoint and from a business standpoint. At the same time I CAN understand their corportate "feelings" around the issue as MS has taken pot shots both directly and indirectly at them over the years and they have an "underdog" mentality.

As far as the dell stuff goes, a couple thoughts. First I don't think they were so much aiming at Dell specifically as much as I think they just were showing off that price wise they aren't as overpriced as is commonly claimed by the PC bigots. I think it was more of a "hey compare us to the big PC vendor, see we're cheaper" thing and Dell just happens to be that vendor. On the other hand maybe it was a shot at Dell because Michael Dell has certainly been a complete dick about Apple in the past, suggesting that they sell their assets and split up the cash amoungst their share-holders... again can't say I blame Apple for firing a warning shot their either although I'm not sure that's what they were even going for.

Ashe

08-09-2006, 03:22 PM

TheYoshi,

The comparison with Dell was far better suited seen the fact that Apple is trying to get rid of the image that they're usually more expensive than their counterparts in the PC industry. I think it's good that 1) Apple realized this and 2) they're working on their pricemodel. There was a clear difference in comparing their Mac Pros and Xservers to Dell's systems and Leapord/OSX to Vista. But anyway, I think all of us agree on that one.

AVB,

Please note that I didn't mean to disrespect you in any way. If I would have, then please accept my apologies. It's clear from what I've read from you that you're working with Macs for quite some time and that you have far more knowledge on the platform than I have.

I also must admit that I am a person who doesn't have any real experience with Mac so indeed, my view will be rather biased from what I've been reading on the Internet. I've been working both personal and professional in environments where a multide of platforms and operating systems (mostly UNIX based) were used, however no Macs were there, so no experience yet.

Next to this and as I already stated in one of the above posts: I like Apple products and I think MacOSX is a very nice piece of software based on UNIX. I am planning to replace my computers at home with one or two very nice Intel based Macs once the 3rd gen is being introduced.

I am not saying that I'm a Windows expert nor that I have all the experience to know the ins and outs of compatibility with other products but I do know that the evolution from 98 to 2K towards XP has seen a tremendously increase in out of the box compatibility. The "out of the box" experience which all Mac users talk of is something I've heard from relatives and friends as well so I'm not countering that one either.

I cannot proove that XP has the same level of compatibility like MacOSX so I might as well stop defending my statement. I'm just stating that given the amount of hardware support provided by MS or Apple the out of the box experience will be largely the same. The big downside to the XP out of the box experience is that seen the gigantic marketshare, much more exotic hardware will be hooked up causing more compatibility issues to pop up. Again, I cannot proove this so what I state can easily be wrong.

I didn't mean to nor was it my intention to question your intelligence, let's make that clear.

AVB19Peace

08-09-2006, 03:45 PM

As far as the dell stuff goes, a couple thoughts. First I don't think they were so much aiming at Dell specifically as much as I think they just were showing off that price wise they aren't as overpriced as is commonly claimed by the PC bigots.

again can't say I blame Apple for firing a warning shot their either although I'm not sure that's what they were even going for.

Apple was aiming directly at Dell. It's widely known Steve Jobs dislikes Michael Dell. After he pulled that stunt about getting rid of Apple if he had it, Steve doesn't like that. Michael Dell wishes he had the innovative team that Apple has. The funny thing is he stated he wouldn't mind putting OS X on their machines for users if Apple would allow it.

Peace,

AVB

AVB19Peace

08-09-2006, 03:53 PM

AVB,

Please note that I didn't mean to disrespect you in any way. If I would have, then please accept my apologies.

No problem. The internet is a hard thing to determine when it's all text. My apologies to you if I did the same.

I've been working both personal and professional in environments where a multide of platforms and operating systems (mostly UNIX based) were used, however no Macs were there, so no experience yet.
Why didn't you say so? Damn, A Mac with OS X is right up your alley. There's a lot of UNIX programmers that have two machines. One UNIX box and one Windows box to do their e-mail, office stuff, etc...They're getting rid of both and getting Mac's with OS X. They have both OS's right there on one machine. Now, with the Intel machines they can have three with Windows on it too if they absolutely have too.

You can spend your entire computing time in the Terminal in OS X with Man pages and everything from UNIX. The GUI doesn't even have to be there, it's totally up to you. On the other hand, the awesome Mac GUI is there with UNIX underneath for people that don't care about UNIX.

Check into it and let me know if I can help with any questions.

mrob

08-09-2006, 04:04 PM

2 points. . .

1. Apple is clearly David to MS's Goliath--no one would disagree with that characterization, right? So why is Goliath scurrying around whining that David is making fun of him? What's wrong with this picture? So MS will get mad at Apple and stomp them into the ground? Uh, we're already there, with less than 10% of the installed base. It sounds to me like MS is running scared of Apple, and is responding by complaining that Apple is being "mean." Why should Apple have to keep its mouth shut and be all deferential to MS?--I love Apple's recent TV ads that contrast Macs and PCs, and personally think that Apple should be even more aggressive in their marketing, and distinguish themselves from the PC side by emphasizing their advantages. Those who are offended by the company with 6% of the market promoting themselves aren't likely to switch to Mac anyway, right?:mellow:

2. Although I'm a big fan of the move to Intel--and bought a MBP several months back to prove it!--I just can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would buy a Mac and then run Windows on it. Why turn off that elegant Mac GUI and use the clunky, crash-prone monstrosity that is Windows? Granted, there are some applications that only work on the Windows side, and Boot Camp makes this possible, but--to me--running Windows on a Mac is like Wynton Marsalis trading his trumpet for a kazoo, or like Jeff Gordon swapping his race car for a bike, or like Brad Pitt leaving Jennifer Anniston for Rachel Ray.

Why ask for a burger when you've got steak right in front of you for the taking?:tongue:

TheYoshi

08-09-2006, 08:11 PM

Ok, I just couldn't resist any longer.... I especially love the caption.

mrob

08-10-2006, 06:53 AM

Perfect!

thatbrian

08-10-2006, 07:12 AM

Get a Mac and don't look back...:001_smile

Ashe

08-10-2006, 07:47 AM

AVB,

I have a switch to Mac in mind over the next two years once I feel that all quircks are resolved within the new architecture that Apple is using. I will most likely await the next generation of Apple notebooks and buy one of those as a first attempt to try out the MacOSX system for my personal computing needs and based on that decide whether it's worth the final switch to ditch my PC's.

I have always been very interested in MacOSX because I very much like the innovative design and GUI but never got the chance to work on one for a few days in a row. The majority of my friends and relatives have PC based computers and the ones that use a Mac use it mostly for professional purposes.

That said: I am keeping my eyes open and follow the Apple world very closely to make a small jump on the train and evaluate from there how I want to move forward.

Thank you also for the proposal to help me out if necessary, this is highly appreciated!

vox_rox

08-10-2006, 08:06 AM

So, I just needed to jump into the fray here, I think we may have slid slightly sideways from the original topic.

Clearly, we are a fairly computer literate crowd, this makes me happy as I am more than just a starter geek.

Firstly, my take on Apple. I have a Mac Mini at home that I bought for my wife and I think the OS/X 10.4 or higher is the first really important advance for Apple in a long time. Someone mentioned Time Machine earlier (Ashe I think), and it's stuff like this that is making them cutting edge. On top of that, check out a piece of software called Parallels to really blow your mind. Not an emulator, it will allow your dual core Intel based Mac to run virtual machines of any OS, including Windows. And, get this, benchmark tests have shown that some apps, Photoshop being one of them, actually run faster in a Windows virtual machine on a MacBook Pro than on a 64-bit intel processor running windows natively. Amazing.

Now, as far as my computing goes, almost everything I do I run on my Ubuntu dedicated machine as there is no reason for me to go to anything else. Can't comment on Suse that someone else mentioned, but a friend of mine runs it and has become a bit of an evangelist about it. Still, Debian-based distros with the apt-get functionality just make life so damn simple, why would I switch from Ubuntu?

I also have an older box with XP on it because, from time to time, I need to do some work in RoboHelp, and it simply does not run properly in emulation.

Maybe what I need is a really powerful MacBook Pro, and run both Ubuntu and Windows in emulation and streamline my operation. Hmmm...

Peace,

Pierre

mrob

08-10-2006, 08:27 AM

Just a bit of anecdotal evidence from nearly 30 years in the education world:

I know lots of folks who have made the switch from PC to Apple, but not many who went the other way, at least of their own choice.

Those who have switched to PC have done so because their business or school required them to do so, mostly because some software app (PeopleSoft to name one) was only available on the PC side.

In fact, in most schools that I visit, the teachers are using Macs--or would like to--and the central office and administration is on PCs.

To say that most of the people one knows run PCs, so they must be better, is not really an accurate assessment of the situation.

Dennis

08-10-2006, 08:40 AM

It just depends on what you are used to. I started on on Vic20s and C-64s then to an Apple IIe. In high school we had the Mac SEs and I continued to use Macs all through college (late 80s-92). My first job was at a university which was all Mac based. PCs at the time went from DOS to 3.1 and W95 had just come out. PCs were very foreign to me and I preferred the simplicity and ease of Macs.

When it came time to buy a system for home in the mid 90s though, I bought a PC. Macs were in the toilet at the time and looked like they were going down and PCs had everything I needed and then some whereas some software was hard to find on the Macs. I have been using PCs ever since (currently W2K) and I find them extremely easy to use, very intuitive and completely trouble free. I have never had virus problems or spyware problems, my system does not crash, and any software I can think of that I need is developed for it. All I do is take reasonable precautions and run a firewall, a daily updating virus program (F-Prot) and daily running antispyware software - I don't have to anything with these programs as they boot and run in the background without maintenance.

About 2 years ago, a piece of equipment I needed to use was on a Mac, so I was given an account in another lab on their Mac system (all brand new stuff). I hated it - I hated the interface, it was counter-intuitive and stupid and I missed the options on PCs I was so used to using. It was the exact opposite of my previous experience. I had over 10 years of Macintosh experience and it did not help me to navigate the new (at that time) OS (probably X or a touch later).

So, see? It just depends on what you use, what you are used to and familar with and what your needs are. One is not necessarily better than the other, just different.

My pennies -
Dennis

Tito

08-10-2006, 12:20 PM

--I just can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would buy a Mac and then run Windows on it.

My 2 reasons:
Quickbooks PC & Mac versions don't play well with each other nor does
Excel and quite frankly I'm not thrilled with Excel for Mac.

AVB19Peace

08-10-2006, 12:24 PM

My 2 reasons:
Quickbooks PC & Mac versions don't play well with each other nor does
Excel and quite frankly I'm not thrilled with Excel for Mac.
Hey Tito, what are the issues with Excel? A friend of mine might be in a situation with crossplatform Office use and would like to let him know of any caveats that could come up.

madmedic

08-10-2006, 12:30 PM

Mama Bear

08-10-2006, 12:39 PM

BTW--I made the switch to a laptop for home and work and am loving it--anyone else a laptop only user?

I am definately a laptop only user! VAIO with 17" screen and XP. With the RV and my traveling habits I had to get one... and now I find I don't use anything else. I have a cable wireless set up here that allows me to use the laptop anywhere on my 10 acres and my printers are all hooked up with Linksys units also. I store the laptop between the nightstand and the bed and then take it in the kitchen with me while I am making soap. I have a motosat unit on the roof of the RV with a wireless set up and can get on the net anywhere in the US by just raising the dish on the roof.

I will never go back to a desktop.

I was recently talking to my dad about this also, he has 3 houses (boston, florida and indiana) and is talking about getting 2 more desktops so he can get on the net where ever he is staying... I am pretty sure I convinced him to go laptop also, but it took me 10 years to talk him into a computer and a cellphone... so ????? lol

Sue (Mama Bear)

vox_rox

08-10-2006, 01:41 PM

Really glad I posted this:001_smile Has been a facinating insight. In my new house using Ubuntu Linux and all is well:biggrin:

Mac would seem to be the winner.....but of course I would have to use Linux....so why change!!!!!!

Brian

Actually, I just read a peice of email a couple of days ago that said: "I run GNU/Linux therefore I am not terrified to open my e-mail."

I thouhgt that was funny. Then I read a post just above here where this was said:

I have never had virus problems or spyware problems, my system does not crash, and any software I can think of that I need is developed for it. All I do is take reasonable precautions and run a firewall, a daily updating virus program (F-Prot) and daily running antispyware software - I don't have to anything with these programs as they boot and run in the background without maintenance.

So, that's "reasonable" to have to run this every day? And, if, like most people, you were not aware of these problems and did not take these "reasonable" steps, then what?

And, you're right when you say that people use what they know and feel comfortable with. Mike02 may not have liked the changes to the Apple user interface, but that doesn't mean they were bad, or that Windows is better, it was just a preference based on experience.

My experience is that Microsoft products, though largely stable, are badly coded and use hardware badly. They DO crash, from time to time, as most machines do, but the added maintenance just to keep them running and malware free doesn't, in my eyes, justify running substandard software from a company that thinks everyone is a crook.

Open source is the only real alternative, and with choice now like SuSe backed by Novell, Ubuntu, and about a million apps that all work just fine, I can't see ever "upgrading" to Vista.

Sorry for being preachy, but it seems like whoever bought all this shave soap left the boxes hanging around, I couldn't help myself.

Peace,

Pierre

TheYoshi

08-10-2006, 08:18 PM

TheYoshi

08-10-2006, 08:20 PM

Hey Tito, what are the issues with Excel? A friend of mine might be in a situation with crossplatform Office use and would like to let him know of any caveats that could come up.

Excel for mac is fine, there are some differences in layout etc of the program but to be honest once I got used to it I think it is better... I have NO problems with Excel on my mac and I am a very, very heavy excel user.

All of that said, if I had to pick one piece of software that is crappy on my mac it would be MS Entourage (their mac version of outlook). It's terrible, horrible, crappy-crappy, suck-suck. I live in constant fear of losing the database (some stupid MS proprietary format)... go figure that the one thing about my mac I don't trust comes from MS.

Dennis

08-11-2006, 06:50 AM

I thouhgt that was funny. Then I read a post just above here where this was said:

So, that's "reasonable" to have to run this every day? And, if, like most people, you were not aware of these problems and did not take these "reasonable" steps, then what?

And, you're right when you say that people use what they know and feel comfortable with. Mike02 may not have liked the changes to the Apple user interface, but that doesn't mean they were bad, or that Windows is better, it was just a preference based on experience.
Of course you are correct. You clipped the part, though, where I said the programs boots automatically and run in the background and I really don't have to touch them. I think though that most people are aware of the problems of running PCs. Firewalls are common to all platforms though, but the virus and antispyware are more particular to Windows PCs mostly based on the huge market share it has and the inherent flaws in the coding. I can't account for others peoples inteliigences or intentions, I just do what I think is correct (or my IT department tells me to do...). :biggrin:

I forgot to mention I have also experience with Linux (and Unix too). I also have used Knoppix for harddrive recovery oin Windows systems too. For quite a while, I had a dual boot on my current system for W2K and Fedora FC3. I found the new graphical interfaces on Fedora to just be outstanding. Linux can pretty easily replace Windows in my opinion with some more work. Some of the issues I saw though was that I had a lot of stupid hardware issues like sound cards not working but everything else did. My familiarity with the OS was really limited and I felt that it was going to take a lot of serious effort to get up to speed - much more time than I had. I felt unprotected in that other users with bad intentions perhaps, were much, much more knowlegable than I and trouble could be had expecially in a huge university environment with all that high speed networking and servers available. I also felt like I could really do some damage by not knowing what I was doing with complete access to all system parameters. The thing that makes it good also makes it really bad if you don't know what you are doing exactly.

Dennis

jduffy

08-11-2006, 07:40 AM

I've installed Ubuntu on several computers and never had any sound card issues. It just works.

Excel works fine on a Mac. I've been using two programs for years on Macs, one being Excel and the other being Filemaker Pro. Never had a problem with either of them, if I did I wouldn't be making any money.

YMMV of course.

Tito

08-11-2006, 08:03 AM

Excel for mac is fine... true a bit different layout. In the past I had trouble going back and forth with data between Mac and PC. I've had formulas go bad and data ends up getting weirded out. It's no fun working up a budget only to find that the numbers ain't working.

My problem is this:
Office:PC
Clients:PC
Home:Apple

So really it's one or the other. So now I'm hoping that boot camp will allow me to take some work home (if I must!).

vox_rox

08-11-2006, 12:02 PM

... virus and antispyware are more particular to Windows PCs mostly based on the huge market share it has and the inherent flaws in the coding. I can't account for others peoples inteliigences or intentions, I just do what I think is correct (or my IT department tells me to do...). :biggrin:

Of course, now YOU'RE correct. Who can account for what the general public does, and how many choices do you have at the workplace where computing policy is dictated and usually inflexible, but that's not a bad thing. Home computing, you can at least make your own policy in that setting. All powerful even - except for SWMBO of couse, within reason.

I forgot to mention I have also experience with Linux (and Unix too). I also have used Knoppix for harddrive recovery oin Windows systems too.

That's interesting. I know a guy where I work who is a developer who had a registry failure on his home system where he does freelance systems development, and he was dead in the water. He managed to get, at least what he told me, was 99 per cent of his data back by booting with an Ubuntu live CD, which detected all ihs hardware, and burned all his data to CD's. Then, of course, he formatted and re-installed Windows because he developes code in a Microsoft environment because that is what his clients are currently working in.

Anyway, your points on Linux are well taken, and Hoemlan Security will be glad of your diligence in keeping your system patched and malware free! :biggrin:

Peace,

Pierre