Professors professing--update

[Bubarubu]

So the kerfluffle over the professor advocating the abortion of fetuses with Down Syndrome went more public than our well-shorn corner of the Intertubes. The UNC paper picked up the story (http://media.www.dailytarheel.com/media/storage/paper885/news/2008/02/19/University/Professors.Remarks.Draw.Fire-3218142.shtml) and an LTE (http://media.www.dailytarheel.com/media/storage/paper885/news/2008/02/18/LettersToTheEditor/Professors.Comments.Were.Inappropriate.For.Class-3215760.shtml?reffeature=recentlycommentedstoriest ab). Inside Higher Education (http://www.insidehighered.com/index.php/news/2008/02/20/qt) (second item from the bottom) noted and linked to the student paper's coverage of the situation.In both cases, the outrage is aimed at the content of the professor's opinion and no one mentions any threat to or concern for their grades.

[ScottS]

If you don't discuss the ethics of prenatal testing in an embryology class, where would you discuss it? Note that when the real quote came out, by the way, it was restricted to an early-as-possible direct test for the duplicate chromosome. None of the suppositions that the prof would advocate late-term abortions based on tests with high false positives were true.

[TimmyBoston]

This topic has already gotten out of hand once, I don't want to see it happen again. Fair warning, guys.

[Howard Newell]

The professor did state that he wouldn't be able to grade fairly if people didn't see his viewpoint. I know because I was actually there in the class. I'm meeting with someone from the Biology department to get this problem resolved.

[Frank7580]

I admire your perseverance Howard.

I also don't doubt your categorization of the events mentioned. Having grown up in a town neighboring Chapel Hill (& graduating from NC state :biggrin:), this event seems consistent with the opinions that usually come from UNC professors. Hang in there...

[Mr. Gillette]

Hey...they're PROFESSORS...what do they know? It usually took the Skipper to provide the manpower and Gilligan to find a more workable solution to get anything done.

Think about it...the Professor could make a battery out of a coconut and a couple of pieces of grass, but he couldn't figure out how to patch the boat?

If you want to think like a professor, find the biggest, deepest, heaviest book you can find, pick a page at random, tear it out, and clip out a 2" wide section, exactly 5" from the top of the page. Re-write the words on the page 16 times, prepare an outline, put on your robe, your cap and your hood, maybe grab your scepter if you're really cool...and start talking about it.

But then...what do I know?

[tony mack]

I admire your perseverance Howard.

I also don't doubt your categorization of the events mentioned. Having grown up in a town neighboring Chapel Hill (& graduating from NC state :biggrin:), this event seems consistent with the opinions that usually come from UNC professors. Hang in there...

As quoted in the paper: "During a lecture, Albert Harris said: 'In my opinion, the moral thing for older mothers to do is to have amniocentesis, as soon during pregnancy as is safe for the fetus, test whether placental cells have a third chromosome number 21, and abort the fetus if it does. The brain is the last organ to become functional.' "

The idea that a professor would advocate what is standard medical practice throughout the developed world is shocking.

T

[rabidpotatochip]

The professor did state that he wouldn't be able to grade fairly if people didn't see his viewpoint. I know because I was actually there in the class. I'm meeting with someone from the Biology department to get this problem resolved.

There. The discussion is finished. :tongue:

Seriously, I don't think there is more to the discussion than what was said there. Ethics of the lesson material aside, the professor shouldn't have said that he would look unfavorably upon people disagreeing with his viewpoint; it's a good thing that steps are being taken against it.

[tony mack]

There. The discussion is finished. :tongue:

Seriously, I don't think there is more to the discussion than what was said there. Ethics of the lesson material aside, the professor shouldn't have said that he would look unfavorably upon people disagreeing with his viewpoint; it's a good thing that steps are being taken against it.

If you read the article in the campus paper no mention is made of the professor making threats to students. Nor did he flippantly make his remarks. The paper quotes him as saying, "It's this terrible decision," Harris [the professor] said. "Ninety percent of people in this position have an abortion."

It would seem that a small minority of students were deeply offended that he brought up the discussion and passed on the information that most people abort Down's syndrome babies, and as well, shared his personal opinion that he feels this is the right thing to do.

If students can't handle a frank medical discussion in a biology class they are in the wrong field. That some feel victimized by this seems additional proof that America has become a nation of whiners.

T

[rabidpotatochip]

If you read the article in the campus paper no mention is made of the professor making threats to students. Nor did he flippantly make his remarks. The paper quotes him as saying, "It's this terrible decision," Harris [the professor] said. "Ninety percent of people in this position have an abortion."

It would seem that a small minority of students were deeply offended that he brought up the discussion and passed on the information that most people abort Down's syndrome babies, and as well, shared his personal opinion that he feels this is the right thing to do.

If students can't handle a frank medical discussion in a biology class they are in the wrong field. That some feel victimized by this seems additional proof that America has become a nation of whiners.

T

Everyone in that classroom is welcome to think what they want on the subject(s) brought up, since it's a biology class it makes sense that they'd discuss abortion and other controversial things. As I understand it from the previous thread however, and I'm willing to be proven wrong here, the student's "opinion" and grade were stated as being directly related and that's what I disagree with.

[tony mack]

Everyone in that classroom is welcome to think what they want on the subject(s) brought up, since it's a biology class it makes sense that they'd discuss abortion and other controversial things. As I understand it from the previous thread however, and I'm willing to be proven wrong here, the student's "opinion" and grade were stated as being directly related and that's what I disagree with.

The newspaper article quoted one student who was outraged by the professor's discussion, but even this student did not state the professor threatened to base grades on the student's opinions.

The guy starting this thread made this claim but the campus newspaper does not support what he says. Maybe the newspaper account is inaccurate, but given the fact that controversy sells, you would think if the professor made such unreasonable or unethical demands on his students, the newspaper would have found someone to bear witness to the injustice. There were after all 140 students in the class.

But all we have is some guy with a pseudonym on a shaving forum expressing his outrage that a professor advocated aborting fetuses with Down's Syndrome, which is standard medical practice in the developed world.

I don't believe the guy who started the thread. In my opinion, he's either deeply confused or deliberately misstating the facts. If he's so aggrieved why is he bringing this up in a shaving forum? Why doesn't he martial his facts, obtain corroborating evidence or witnesses, and present these to the newspaper that has already covered the story?

This is just the wrong place to bring up this kind of story.

T

[boboakalfb]

But all we have is some guy with a pseudonym on a shaving forum ...
Valid point...there are always going to be members on forums who aren't who they profess to be.


This is just the wrong place to bring up this kind of story.

As long as it is discussed in a gentlemanly manor, I see no problem with it's existence. Some people like to discuss topics such as these while others don't want to come near them.

[theperfectstorm]

If you want to think like a professor, find the biggest, deepest, heaviest book you can find, pick a page at random, tear it out, and clip out a 2" wide section, exactly 5" from the top of the page. Re-write the words on the page 16 times, prepare an outline, put on your robe, your cap and your hood, maybe grab your scepter if you're really cool...and start talking about it.

But then...what do I know?

I spent years of my life getting my 3 advanced degrees, I worked hard and I earned them. The main thing I learned was how little I knew and how much harder I needed to work and how much more I needed to learn.

I left a lucrative career as a contractor and made the decision to go into teaching because I wanted to serve--not because I wanted to make money or lecture from the mountaintop. I am too old and too fat to be a cop or a soldier or an Air Marshall, but I thought I could serve my state and my community by helping others to get educated and achieve their goals.

Stupid me. I thought I was doing right.

This thread, more than anything I have seen recently, demonstrates the basic truth of American education:

People get the professors and the education they deserve.
If you have a problem, look to the consumer--not the provider.

[Mr. Gillette]

I spent years of my life getting my 3 advanced degrees, I worked hard and I earned them. The main thing I learned was how little I knew and how much harder I needed to work and how much more I needed to learn.

I left a lucrative career as a contractor and made the decision to go into teaching because I wanted to serve--not because I wanted to make money or lecture from the mountaintop. I am too old and too fat to be a cop or a soldier or an Air Marshall, but I thought I could serve my state and my community by helping others to get educated and achieve their goals.

Stupid me. I thought I was doing right.

This thread, more than anything I have seen recently, demonstrates the basic truth of American education:

People get the professors and the education they deserve.
If you have a problem, look to the consumer--not the provider.

Please accept my humor in the spirit it was given...I did the same thing-- had my stint at teaching, and realized that the folks who made the rules were the left-brained-linear-thinking-play-by-the book and don't think kinds of people, (at least in public school education). I jumped ship and went to work for myself as a freelance curmudgeon.

Education is NEVER wasted...it's the only way we truly know how little we know. My hat's off to anyone out there in the trenches who is still able to do it!

[BMWRider]

People get the professors and the education they deserve. If you have a problem, look to the consumer--not the provider.

I love this and believe it is true. I remember when I was a senior (I was an adult learner in my 30s) taking a class on film. It was the first time I had a "fun class" in a long time and was really looking forward to it. We were to be in class at 6:00 PM and the professor made it clear that tardiness was not an option. Ten minutes into the first class, the professor was still at his desk taking care of the administrative nonsense that you have to go through with a college class. He had not spoken to the class as a whole. I took a calculated risk, raised my hand and got his attention. He called on me and I tapped my watch and said, Professor, I paid good money for this class, and I have been here for ten minutes and not learned a single thing. At that point the class went silent, he looked at me for about a minute, I looked right back at him, and then he burst out laughing. It was a great class, and I earned an "A." I see the professor two times a year and just spent New Years Eve with he and his wife. He is a good man, and a great teacher. Years later he still says that my class was his favorite, and that he has never had so much fun teaching. I think you deal with this directly with the prof, they are human too. If you have run into the 1% (1% of everything is bad) the college will deal with it if you let them know.

[moses]

But then...what do I know?

No offense, but about this, apparently not much.

I've met my share of professors, and had the privilege of being friends with a few. By and large, they are a bunch of good people who are very dedicated to their research and helping their students learn. Sure, I've run into a couple who didn't seem to give a darn, and a couple who were arrogant and thought they had all the answers. But they were a small minority. Most were humble enough to know they didn't have all the answers, but just doing their part to learn more, and teach what they knew at the same time. In general, at least those in the sciences and especially engineering, could have been making triple the money in the private sector, but were in academics instead because they believed in doing something good and spreading knowledge.

For the record, my father was a professor. Taught engineering for over twenty years to thousands of students. And in turn taught me and awful lot about the importance of service.

So personally, I don't particularly appreciate seeing professors run down as a group.

-Mo

[BMWRider]

I jumped ship and went to work for myself as a freelance curmudgeon.

Where do I go to apply for this job? I want it, and I know I am probably overqualified. Are you looking to expand the business. Maybe you need an assistant curmudgeon?

[castlecraver]

Howard N,

I don't really want to enter too deeply into the discussion here in the interest of my blood pressure and the rapport I wish to uphold with folks here, being both an academic and someone with strong personal feelings on the offending opinion.

But if I may ask a question just for clarification: In what way might the professor be introduced to your opinion on this issue? Do you suspect he would ask a question pertaining to that issue on an exam? It would seem like an awfully inappropriate question, by its nature far more ethics-based than anything having to do with the process of embryonic development. Does your professor often place these sorts of questions on exams? Is it actually a legitimate focus of the course, or perhaps just philosophical chest-thumping by an opinionated and insensitive teacher?

[Mr. Gillette]

No offense, but about this, apparently not much.

I've met my share of professors, and had the privilege of being friends with a few. By and large, they are a bunch of good people who are very dedicated to their research and helping their students learn. Sure, I've run into a couple who didn't seem to give a darn, and a couple who were arrogant and thought they had all the answers. But they were a small minority. Most were humble enough to know they didn't have all the answers, but just doing their part to learn more, and teach what they knew at the same time. In general, at least those in the sciences and especially engineering, could have been making triple the money in the private sector, but were in academics instead because they believed in doing something good and spreading knowledge.

For the record, my father was a professor. Taught engineering for over twenty years to thousands of students. And in turn taught me and awful lot about the importance of service.

So personally, I don't particularly appreciate seeing professors run down as a group.

-Mo

You're entitled to your opinion...Mo, as always and respectfully. I'm all for spreading knowledge, and, to be fair--- these guys are rarely paid what they are worth.

Just some misplaced humor-- although keep in mind, in MY discipline (if you can call it one, Music and Education) I've had my share of folks analzying the structure of the pattern of the raindrops, while at the same time questioning why their shirt is getting wet.

I meant no offense...and as I said, what do I know?

I must also keep my feelings toward "professional educators" who become administrators separate from those who pursue knowledge wherever the pursuit may lead-- and I must keep my personal opinions of my own son, a second year TA at a Big Ten institution whose stated goal is to duck responsibility as long as possible by piling up student loans and continuing his educational path-- I must keep these prejudices out of my thoughts.

KUDOS, Moses, to those in your circle who do it right, and Kudos to your father. My father was a farmer, and a damn good one-- but there are many poor/hack farmers out there, corporate farms, and the like. I have no problem seeing them take a hit now and then.

Thanks for making me think...I retract, therefore, my statements other than the fact that I really CANNOT understand why the Professor couldn't fix the boat and get those folks off that island.

[ScottS]

The professor did state that he wouldn't be able to grade fairly if people didn't see his viewpoint. I know because I was actually there in the class. I'm meeting with someone from the Biology department to get this problem resolved.

My bet is that this occurred some time after some folks were (inappropriately) riding him pretty hard.

[Rolo]

In the first thread it was the professor "hinted". Now is he "stated". I don't buy it. From that article, and the subsequent comments by the students, he "stated" no such thing. Two people out of 140 found his opinion offensive, one because she has a brother with DS and she decided to make a stink about it. I think is more likely that in your "outrage" you assume that if you disagree with him you would be graded unfairly.

[Howard Newell]

The reporter from the DTH didn't care at all about the threat the professor made. She only wanted the story to be about controversial topics in the classroom and if they should be allowed, which is a shallow view of what actually happened.
As for controversy selling, well, the professor didn't state that he supported genocide, the war on terrorism, or that he was against homosexual rights, or women. If he did, I have no doubt that the entire student body would be calling for his resignation.

As a result, the statement he made reached people who had absolutely no interest or opinion on it, which is why it was met with extreme apathy. Issues surrounding people with disabilities don't make the evening news each night, therefore the activists that roam this campus don't care at all about it.

I'll put the mindset of the student body and DTH in another perspective: a professor at UNC was contacted by Playboy for doing a photo shoot in his house. The professor agreed, rented out his house for the shoot, and was not present when the shoot was conducted. Everyone was up in arms about the whole affair for something that happened off campus; editorials stated that he was wrong for doing such a thing, that he "fell well short of upholding the ethical standards necessary for a professor to maintain a proper relationship with his or her students."

Did he make an unethical decision? One could argue that his actions fall under the first amendment, like the DTH editorial staff is stating with the Biology professor, or one could argue that he was implicitly trying to subjugate women into being sex toys. And guess which side the DTH unswervingly took.

The DTH's stance on these issues is that it's the first amendment for a professor to say in the classroom that people with DS are tragedies and that the mothers should've aborted them, but it's completely unethical for a professor to rent his home out to a girlie magazine. Because, hey, there aren't a lot of students who actually work with people with DS, so why bother all that much about it if it doesn't affect that many people?


So, my main point is if you're going to try and discredit me, try doing it with a neutral paper that doesn't select its sources based on what slant the editors want the article to take. Oh, and try using a paper that actually has professional journalists working for it, as opposed to politically charged students.

[Howard Newell]

In the first thread it was the professor "hinted". Now is he "stated". I don't buy it. From that article, and the subsequent comments by the students, he "stated" no such thing. Two people out of 140 found his opinion offensive, one because she has a brother with DS and she decided to make a stink about it. I think is more likely that in your "outrage" you assume that if you disagree with him you would be graded unfairly.

The professor actually said that he didn't think he'd be able to grade fairly if we didn't understand his viewpoint. That's a definite hint that he wanted the student to shut up about it, and possibly could have prevented more students from speaking out about it. Has the idea that some students actually agree with the professor's opinion and are attempting to discredit the student crossed your brain at all?

[Howard Newell]

Howard N,

I don't really want to enter too deeply into the discussion here in the interest of my blood pressure and the rapport I wish to uphold with folks here, being both an academic and someone with strong personal feelings on the offending opinion.

But if I may ask a question just for clarification: In what way might the professor be introduced to your opinion on this issue? Do you suspect he would ask a question pertaining to that issue on an exam? It would seem like an awfully inappropriate question, by its nature far more ethics-based than anything having to do with the process of embryonic development. Does your professor often place these sorts of questions on exams? Is it actually a legitimate focus of the course, or perhaps just philosophical chest-thumping by an opinionated and insensitive teacher?

Well, I feel that the appropriate thing that he should have done was to actually state both sides of the debate instead of presenting his side. And no, Down Syndrome is not really a focus of the course, although it would make sense to briefly touch on problems with nondisjunction and trisomy (although we're studying sponges and mammals and not exclusively humans).

[ScottS]

That's a definite hint that he wanted the student to shut up about it, and possibly could have prevented more students from speaking out about it. Has the idea that some students actually agree with the professor's opinion and are attempting to discredit the student crossed your brain at all?

Some students agree with the prof, and some disagree. The prof has no urge to discredit those that disagree. He merely wants them to stop talking so he could do his job. He offered his opinion, and very clearly (though you're telling us in dribs and drabs for some odd reason) the con side made their opinion known in class very strongly. That should have been that. As for him wanting the student to shut up about it, he's not alone.

[ScottS]

Well, I feel that the appropriate thing that he should have done was to actually state both sides of the debate instead of presenting his side. And no, Down Syndrome is not really a focus of the course, although it would make sense to briefly touch on problems with nondisjunction and trisomy (although we're studying sponges and mammals and not exclusively humans).

Ethics are not an easy thing to work into a curriculum. While the NIH mandates that ethics be taught to students they support, those courses are often limited to research ethics-- things like how long people need to keep records, who owns their data, whether its required to share reagents, conflicts of interest, etc. Not much time is spent on stem cells, genetic screening, or other topical areas of interest.

Thus, it's to the guy's credit that he's making the effort to introduce the issues to his students. Before you say he was being one sided, just the fact that he offered his opinion as an opinion means that he recognizes that not all hold that opinion. I think if you polled the room, every student in it realized when the prof made his statement that there were two sides to this issue.

If this continues much longer, I promise to send the link to the prof.

[Howard Newell]

I feel like blackmailing or threating me won't accomplish anything, Scott. And frankly I'm not forcing you to read these posts or even agree with my viewpoint, as long as you can intelligently debate why you disagree. I was merely responding to people saying that they didn't believe me and I counter-argued.

[boboakalfb]

This topic has already gotten out of hand once, I don't want to see it happen again. Fair warning, guys.

Just a reminder, gents.

[ScottS]

I feel like blackmailing or threating me won't accomplish anything, Scott. And frankly I'm not forcing you to read these posts or even agree with my viewpoint, as long as you can intelligently debate why you disagree. I was merely responding to people saying that they didn't believe me and I counter-argued.

I'm not trying to blackmail you. I think this looks to be heading for legal action on the prof, and this would be something he can show to the Deans in his defense.

[ScottS]

I feel like blackmailing or threating me won't accomplish anything, Scott. And frankly I'm not forcing you to read these posts or even agree with my viewpoint, as long as you can intelligently debate why you disagree. I was merely responding to people saying that they didn't believe me and I counter-argued.

I don't have to agree or disagree with your viewpoint. I disagree with your methods. I think the classroom was an inappropriate place for you to have it out with your prof, and you should have put it to bed much earlier.

[BMWRider]

If this continues much longer, I promise to send the link to the prof.

Sounds like blackmail to me and is not in the spirit of hanging out in the barber shop and having a discussion. I am sorry but this is a threat, and an unfair one at that.

[gugi]

Howard,

I have not read anything on the subject but your posts, and to me understanding the professors point, doesn't seem like asking to agree with it. Of course if you decide that certain position is 'Right' no matter what to the point that you deny the biological facts, indeed your grade will reflect that you do not understand these biological facts.
I do trust professors much more than I trust students. They have a lot more experience to start with. I am certain that the professor is much more familiar with ethics considerations than you as well. That doesn't mean I agree with his stand on the issue or that I disagree with it.
But an established medical practice is generally considered ethical by the society's standards.

[moses]

Thanks for making me think...I retract, therefore, my statements other than the fact that I really CANNOT understand why the Professor couldn't fix the boat and get those folks off that island.

No worries. A little kneejerk in my reaction there, perhaps. And as for that particular professor, that IS an excellent question....

[castlecraver]

Thanks for the response to my previous question. I agree with your assessment of the one-sidedness of his remarks.


The professor actually said that he didn't think he'd be able to grade fairly if we didn't understand his viewpoint.

But I think a clarification needs to be made: leaving out the "not able to grade fairly" part, (as a statement such as that does imply that he understood he'd be acting with impropriety) for a moment...

Did he say that you must understand or rather agree with his view? I understand a lot of views that I couldn't disagree more with, in fact it's impossible to disagree (or agree) with something without a comprehensive understanding of it. As insensitive and morally distasteful as that opinion might be, I would indeed hope a student of the relevant disciplines would at least understand it, even if they don't agree with it.

[Bubarubu]

So, my main point is if you're going to try and discredit me, try doing it with a neutral paper that doesn't select its sources based on what slant the editors want the article to take. Oh, and try using a paper that actually has professional journalists working for it, as opposed to politically charged students.

Lara Frame, who is quoted in the article and the author of the letter to the editor, doesn't mention a threat to or concern with her grade. Unless your contention is that the paper re-wrote her letter, it's a tough argument to make.

Before it hit the Daily Tarheel, the story was reported in the News & Observer, also without any mention of a grade implication. Another student quoted in both articles, Sara(h?) Truluck mentions Best Buddies, but not a threat to her grade. If you perceived a threat, then you need to deal with the professor directly to address that perception. If you were mistaken, then apologize and move on. If you were not mistaken and the professor does not remove the threat, then go talk to a dept. chair or dean. Anything else, including coming here to complain about it or sending letters to the newspaper or commenting on the newspaper's story is nothing more than escalation of the conflict in an attempt to embarrass the professor.

[cl00bie]

Oh heck. I'll risk Timmy's wrath.


As for controversy selling, well, the professor didn't state that he supported genocide...

If the professor suggested responsible women get an amnio, and based on the results (many times false positive) should abort a child with Down's Syndrome, I submit that the professor is supporting genocide. He is suggesting preemptively wiping out an entire class of people.

I find that opinion repugnant. However the professor has the right to state facts as they lie, and his opinion if it is labeled as such. But grading someone based on disagreeing with his opinion is just plain wrong. This seems to be a recurring problem in many of our institutions of higher learning. Maybe not widespread, but the bad apples are the ones who seem to draw all the press.

[gugi]

But grading someone based on disagreeing with his opinion is just plain wrong. This seems to be a recurring problem in many of our institutions of higher learning. Maybe not widespread, but the bad apples are the ones who seem to draw all the press.
Of course it's wrong, whether this wrong is actually happening is rather important. Would you, care to support your statement above (my emphasis). I don't follow the press closely but I'd really like to have references to the examples you have in mind.

[BMWRider]

Of course it's wrong, whether this wrong is actually happening is rather important. Would you, care to support your statement above (my emphasis). I don't follow the press closely but I'd really like to have references to the examples you have in mind.'

If you doubt that this happens see Evan Coyne Maloney's documentary Indoctrinate U. David Horowitz has written several books on the subject as well. While it is not common, it does happen. Again 1%.

[Mr. Gillette]

No worries. A little kneejerk in my reaction there, perhaps. And as for that particular professor, that IS an excellent question....

Thanks Mo...your response did cause me to think...I was on a Tri-Mester plan in my days long ago at Michigan State. I took, perhaps 5-6 classes a term, not unusual as a music ed major there, since many of the courses were 1 credit-hour. This would make about 15 professors a year x 4+ which should take me upwards of 60.

In graduate courses at other colleges from San Diego to several here in the Chicago area, this number would be added to by about 20. This is my direct experience, like comparing a Dorco to a Derby!

Of this sample of nearly 100-- I can list 2 who were profound influences on me, who shaped me and mentored me. One is living, one is long dead-- but I remember MUCH about them. Another instructor at the graduate level was head and shoulders above the rest-- but was an "adjunct prof" who was simply a very gifted middle school teacher in her real life.

There were about 6 in all these years whom I would qualify as very good, competent workmen/women who did their job without distinction, but I came out of those courses having learned something well.

And probably 4 more that I can name by name as absolutely dismal.

I suspect that's the test-- if one can look back after 20-30+ years and remember a name, remember something that person taught, he/she is probably quite successful; or worse.

This (in my life) adds up to about a baker's dozen out of probably 75-80, leaving a sample of over 60 that were simply forgettable. To be fair, many of these were large general/ed courses taught by TA's...but even the TA's are on this forgettable list in my book (except for one particularly fine English TA).

If I were testing 75-80 blades and they came out like this, I probably wouldn't order more.

YMMV.

Moses, my friend-- you are always a gentleman, and I appreciate it. My comments reflect my choices in life/schools/disciplines, and I'm too damn old to go back and repeat them!!:biggrin:

But-- as life would have it, I got home yesterday, after my professorial slam, and found a letter waiting for me from the widow of Dr. Leonard Falcone, the long-dead mentor/teacher/prof who was, by far, the single most influential figure in my educational life. I realized that the $2500.00 a year I paid (tuition and housing!) to attend school was worth it, if only for the weekly instrumental lessons and informal snow-shoveling/hot chocolate drinking, concert-chatting sessions I received from one person who made a difference in my life. I hope your father was such a man.

Regards!

[ScottS]

Oh heck. I'll risk Timmy's wrath.

If the professor suggested responsible women get an amnio, and based on the results (many times false positive) should abort a child with Down's Syndrome,

Amnio does not have the false positive rates of earlier screening methods. The earlier screening tells you whether amnio might be indicated.

[ScottS]

As for controversy selling, well, the professor didn't state that he supported genocide, the war on terrorism, or that he was against homosexual rights, or women. If he did, I have no doubt that the entire student body would be calling for his resignation.

Here, a tenured professor of some stature put an anti-war statement on his lab web page. The university determined that his lab web page was an inappropriate place for him to be expressing his opinion, and made him take it down.

I think your feelings of persecution based upon your opinion are simply misplaced. Everyone knows you have an opinion, and the argument is about your actions, not your opinion.

[rabidpotatochip]

The newspaper article quoted one student who was outraged by the professor's discussion, but even this student did not state the professor threatened to base grades on the student's opinions.

The guy starting this thread made this claim but the campus newspaper does not support what he says. Maybe the newspaper account is inaccurate, but given the fact that controversy sells, you would think if the professor made such unreasonable or unethical demands on his students, the newspaper would have found someone to bear witness to the injustice. There were after all 140 students in the class.

But all we have is some guy with a pseudonym on a shaving forum expressing his outrage that a professor advocated aborting fetuses with Down's Syndrome, which is standard medical practice in the developed world.

I don't believe the guy who started the thread. In my opinion, he's either deeply confused or deliberately misstating the facts. If he's so aggrieved why is he bringing this up in a shaving forum? Why doesn't he martial his facts, obtain corroborating evidence or witnesses, and present these to the newspaper that has already covered the story?

This is just the wrong place to bring up this kind of story.

T

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you on this one, work just got in the way of my B&B time. :tongue:

I see your point. It's just depressing to think that they even bothered to produce an article on it. In fact, rereading the article this morning I no longer think he overstepped his bounds. I can definitely see a lot of people being offended by his opinions but he's free to think what he wants.

[sphughes]

Anything else, including coming here to complain about it or sending letters to the newspaper or commenting on the newspaper's story is nothing more than escalation of the conflict in an attempt to embarrass the professor.

A few times over the course of the threads on this story the concept of sending a letter to a newspaper to express opinion has been chastised. Correct me if I am wrong but the entire point of the Op/Ed section in a newspaper is to use it as a forum to express opinion. You do not have to agree with what is published there (and frequently I don't) but realize it is a method to express viewpoint. It is up to the staff of the paper to exercise judgment as to whether the letter crosses the line.

-Scott

[gugi]

'

If you doubt that this happens see Evan Coyne Maloney's documentary Indoctrinate U. David Horowitz has written several books on the subject as well. While it is not common, it does happen. Again 1%.
No, I don't have any doubts this happens, just wanted to get references. And of course if the rates this happens are so small or are decreasing with time I see no reason of great concern. Taking into account how many people are responsible in determining a grade and how many courses one takes, it seems very unlikely that persons life will be dramatically changed by the "1% bad apples".

[Bubarubu]

A few times over the course of the threads on this story the concept of sending a letter to a newspaper to express opinion has been chastised. Correct me if I am wrong but the entire point of the Op/Ed section in a newspaper is to use it as a forum to express opinion. You do not have to agree with what is published there (and frequently I don't) but realize it is a method to express viewpoint. It is up to the staff of the paper to exercise judgment as to whether the letter crosses the line.

You're certainly right about the purpose of the op-ed section, but that's not the argument I was making. Everyone has the right to send the letter, but it's not a productive way to handle the situation. If corrective action is called for, no chair or dean is going to take that action based on a student's letter to the paper. The professor certainly isn't going to either. Taking the problem "public" before all other avenues of resolution have been exhausted is just an attempt to escalate the situation. A problem in the classroom that can't be handled between an instructor and student should next go to the department chair or dean, not the newspaper. The paper makes their decision based on whether the letter is interesting/generates interest, not whether publishing it gets any closer to a solution.

[sphughes]

You're certainly right about the purpose of the op-ed section, but that's not the argument I was making. Everyone has the right to send the letter, but it's not a productive way to handle the situation. If corrective action is called for, no chair or dean is going to take that action based on a student's letter to the paper. The professor certainly isn't going to either. Taking the problem "public" before all other avenues of resolution have been exhausted is just an attempt to escalate the situation. A problem in the classroom that can't be handled between an instructor and student should next go to the department chair or dean, not the newspaper. The paper makes their decision based on whether the letter is interesting/generates interest, not whether publishing it gets any closer to a solution.

It can be a very productive way to voice opinion. Obviously a topic as volatile as this will not be handled by a letter to a newspaper. The intent is to state how you feel clearly and to make others aware of your point of view. I have no 'skin in the game' here so I threw a suggestion out for consideration. In my opinion the moment that statements were made in the forum of a lecture hall environment they became public. This was not a conversation between 2 people.

That being said I appreciate what you are saying. In order to resolve something that troubles you or is wrong, it is absolutely necessary to exhaust any and all reasonable avenues that are available and in place in a structured environment like a University. The chances of correcting a judgment error are much more likely the sooner it is challenged directly and minimizing the fallout.

-Scott

[ScottS]

I'm still curious as to what the critics would think the resolution would be. Should the prof stand up and say that he has changed his mind, a la Mitt Romney, and now he's rediscovered his soul and knows how wrong he was?

[tony mack]

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you on this one, work just got in the way of my B&B time. :tongue:

I see your point. It's just depressing to think that they even bothered to produce an article on it. In fact, rereading the article this morning I no longer think he overstepped his bounds. I can definitely see a lot of people being offended by his opinions but he's free to think what he wants.

In some ways, I think I was a little too harsh in saying I don't believe the guy who started this whole thread. Other posters here seemed to state their skepticism more fairly than I did, suggesting that the guy possibly just felt threatened by a professor expressing an opinion he strongly disagreed with.

I fly off the handle in these discussions anyway, since my sister is a community college professor and is constantly walking on eggshells around the many controversies that rage just beneath the surface at her school. Basically, she feels vulnerable to attack by elements of the right and left. Both sides, in her opinion, are driving out any sort of open discourse.

In my sister's case, she is basically someone who just wants to help community college students--many of them Latino--learn better English skills. To improve their employment prospects, and possibly to gain the insights and satisfactions people just get from practicing more at reading and expressing themselves. She has almost zero interest in politics or gender or race issues. But it's difficult for her to suggest almost any piece of literature that isn't going to offend one group or another. Students complain if it was written by a white man, or lesbian, or it wasn't written by lesbian, or the work seems to promote a secular humanist agenda, or a Catholic agenda. Whatever, she chooses, some student or faculty member is bound to take issue with her selection.

In her opinion, there are a lot of people out there looking for a grievance, some piece of evidence that they belong to one oppressed class or another.

In the 80s when I went to college, I had a few teachers who gave me a hard time. I haven't read the Horowitz book on liberal bias at universities. Many of my professors would have no doubt fallen into the stereotype of flaming liberal or left wing extremist. This was the time when militant man-hating Women's Studies professors were teaching that any type of sexual intercourse was a form of rape. Unrelated to politics, I had a gay English professor who wrote me several weird notes asking me over to his house for drinks. Though I had gay friends and felt no problems with gayness, his approaches were the cause of some anxiety. I had another professor who just didn't like me, and I'm sure gave me lower grades because of this.

At the time, I never would have thought to file administrative complaints.
It seems to me like there is a point in life where you just have to roll with difficult people, or sharp disagreements, and figure out how to maneuver past without making it into a huge affair. Moreover, sometimes I realize in retrospect I misjudged some people, or misread their intentions.

It seems like the default mode in America is to turn everything into some sort of civil rights case. And again, not having read the Horowitz book, my hunch is people on the right are often just as happy to claim oppression for their views as any other group.

My fear is we've sort of lost our nerve. Americans get mad, and instead of wanting to confront an issue or person, or at least deal with it privately, we whine a great deal. If we take action, our impulse is to tell on the offending party, get them fired or reprimanded. It seems so Stalinist.

T

[BMWRider]

And again, not having read the Horowitz book, my hunch is people on the right are often just as happy to claim oppression for their views as any other group.

I have no problems with your post at all. Bravo on your stance against "victim-hood." I just wanted to point out that Horowitz, son of communists and a Trotskyite is hardly representative of the true American right. His book is more about the closing of the mind on college campuses, and the suppression of discourse.

[rayzor]

please, do not feed the trolls.

[rabidpotatochip]

please, do not feed the trolls.

But they're hungry! :frown:

[tony mack]

I have no problems with your post at all. Bravo on your stance against "victim-hood." I just wanted to point out that Horowitz, son of communists and a Trotskyite is hardly representative of the true American right. His book is more about the closing of the mind on college campuses, and the suppression of discourse.

I'll look for that book.

T

[gugi]

As far as academia being 'left' and 'liberal' I have no doubts about it. However to me this is not only unsurprising but also very much expected. Consider the salaries of faculty compared to their similarly educated peers in the private sector and you will realize that the people who chose academic career are motivated by something more than their individualistic success and perhaps see more value in 'public good' than those who opt for different path.
In addition they trade job security for economic opportunity, hardly a right-wing philosophy.
Nothing unusual there. And I have very little sympathy for an argument that students are being brainwashed by leftist propaganda - if a person is dumb enough to get brainwashed, they deserve it. Yes then they vote and their choices affect the rest of the society, but that's just the result of the free market system that the society has set up, so its only fair.

[Bubarubu]

As far as academia being 'left' and 'liberal' I have no doubts about it. However to me this is not only unsurprising but also very much expected. Consider the salaries of faculty compared to their similarly educated peers in the private sector and you will realize that the people who chose academic career are motivated by something more than their individualistic success and perhaps see more value in 'public good' than those who opt for different path.
In addition they trade job security for economic opportunity, hardly a right-wing philosophy.

As it happens, there's some new research on this very subject. A husband and wife team, one of whom is conservative and the other is liberal, are about to publish a paper on why conservatives choose not to get doctorates. By and large, the broad conservative ideology is not focused on the topics and values that generate the most doctoral students. Liberal students, in addition to having more interest in those particular topics, are also more interested in generating original work and issues of intellectual freedom. The Chronicle of Higher Ed has a good summary here (http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=s1153nnhjkhr407r6ng6gjg8pvc8g2s8).

[Pretzellogic]

As far as academia being 'left' and 'liberal' I have no doubts about it. However to me this is not only unsurprising but also very much expected. Consider the salaries of faculty compared to their similarly educated peers in the private sector and you will realize that the people who chose academic career are motivated by something more than their individualistic success and perhaps see more value in 'public good' than those who opt for different path.
In addition they trade job security for economic opportunity, hardly a right-wing philosophy.
Nothing unusual there. And I have very little sympathy for an argument that students are being brainwashed by leftist propaganda - if a person is dumb enough to get brainwashed, they deserve it. Yes then they vote and their choices affect the rest of the society, but that's just the result of the free market system that the society has set up, so its only fair.
Well said.

[gugi]

Now that's something rather interesting, and sufficiently unbiased for my taste. But as a quote in that article says "If it's true that people are self-sorting, what is to be done?" :)

[Bubarubu]

But as a quote in that article says "If it's true that people are self-sorting, what is to be done?" :)


Well, the authors of the research have a few ideas, but I don't know that those will do all that much. The better question is, why should anything be done at all? To the degree that ideology moves people to self-select out of certain pursuits/professions (rather than others excluding them on the basis of ideology), what makes us so concerned about the ideological diversity of higher education? Why don't we care about the ideological diversity of stock brokers? Doctors? Cab drivers? Why are we only concerned about liberal professors, when studies have shown certain disciplines (business, for example) attract an inordinate proportion of conservatives?

The question that no research has ever answered (nor to my knowledge, attempted to) is whether ideology is in anyway indicative of an instructor's performance in the classroom. I'm very liberal, but that doesn't mean I'm indoctrinating my students three days a week. I talk about politics, praise Republicans, condemn Democrats, and vice versa. Horowitz, who is nothing more than a profiteering demagogue, relies on people to fill in the enthymeme and assume that liberal professors always "teach liberal" and punish conservative students. It's just not true, and tilting at those windmills means that students and faculty with legitimate complaints about intellectual freedom have that much more doubt to overcome.

[gugi]

yes, I completely agree. to me that's a non issue created to rally people around something. but I of course welcome any data to anything, so that there is less room for political speculations.

[Bowcephalus]

What is an "enthymeme"?.............How's the archery coming?

[Bubarubu]

What is an "enthymeme"?.............How's the archery coming?

Enthymeme (http://sl.wus0.com/quclk.go?rd=http://rhetoric.byu.edu/figures/E/enthymeme.htm&res=20&crid=4cf3ce9874842622&pos=1&mr=10&qu=enthymeme) is a rhetorical syllogism that relies on the audience' knowledge and attitudes to fill in an unstated premise.

[theperfectstorm]

Brain-washed? Are you kidding me?

I have been teaching juco and uni for 8 years. I have only met a couple of professors with agendas. And they were self-righteous blowhards who antagonized more people than they brought in.

I have however, met about 2500 students with agendas. Used to be you went to school SPECIFICALLY to hear different views and other sides of issues. That is what gave you a world view and honed critical thinking abilities.

Now, it seems that many students ONLY want to hear what they already know and believe and blow a head gasket when anyone (like me) questions whatever lowest-common-denominator balloon-juice their parents and churches have indoctrinated them with.

I ask kids everyday, "If you already know every damn thing, then why are you here?" I have yet to get a reasonable answer.

Unfortunately, it seems that many students only want independent validation of their agendas. Even worse, more of them are starting to believe that having paid for a class they have bought and paid for that validation.

Brain-washing students implies that they are open to suggestion. Everyday, that sort of student becomes more and more rare.

Professors don't get to spend all their time indulging their own political and social agendas. They spend most of their time fighting off the STUDENTS' agendas.

[cl00bie]

Yes then they vote and their choices affect the rest of the society, but that's just the result of the free market system that the society has set up, so its only fair.


Are you really trying to convince us that the free market operates in the world of academia?

[voerman]

Brain-washed? Are you kidding me?

I have been teaching juco and uni for 8 years. I have only met a couple of professors with agendas. And they were self-righteous blowhards who antagonized more people than they brought in.

I have however, met about 2500 students with agendas. Used to be you went to school SPECIFICALLY to hear different views and other sides of issues. That is what gave you a world view and honed critical thinking abilities.

Now, it seems that many students ONLY want to hear what they already know and believe and blow a head gasket when anyone (like me) questions whatever lowest-common-denominator balloon-juice their parents and churches have indoctrinated them with.

I ask kids everyday, "If you already know every damn thing, then why are you here?" I have yet to get a reasonable answer.

Unfortunately, it seems that many students only want independent validation of their agendas. Even worse, more of them are starting to believe that having paid for a class they have bought and paid for that validation.

Brain-washing students implies that they are open to suggestion. Everyday, that sort of student becomes more and more rare.

Professors don't get to spend all their time indulging their own political and social agendas. They spend most of their time fighting off the STUDENTS' agendas.

Interesting observations.

I have been teaching at a liberal arts college for 25 years and have found the exact opposite - the students are opened minded, polite in the expression of their views and extremely tolerant of other views, almost to a fault. One of my biggest challenges is getting them to express and argue for their own opinion.

I teach computer science. Perhaps that has something to do with the difference in our experiences.

Lou

A mind is like a parachute - it is most useful when it is open.

[jazzman]

Are you really trying to convince us that the free market operates in the world of academia?

Academia is the last place in the world where free market concepts would be appropriate. If it were, science departments would still be teaching that the sun revolves around Earth and that no living creature evolved from something else.

[Holton181]

Brain-washing students implies that they are open to suggestion. Everyday, that sort of student becomes more and more rare.

Professors don't get to spend all their time indulging their own political and social agendas. They spend most of their time fighting off the STUDENTS' agendas.




I have been teaching at a liberal arts college for 25 years and have found the exact opposite - the students are opened minded, polite in the expression of their views and extremely tolerant of other views, almost to a fault. One of my biggest challenges is getting them to express and argue for their own opinion.

I teach computer science. Perhaps that has something to do with the difference in our experiences.



I really think it has to do with the class. Right now, all of my business classes are filled with drones looking to recite what the teacher says. My Humanities classes (Psycology, Philosophy, etc.) were filled with dissenting opinions on the subject matter.

But that's besides the point. The teacher should be there to inform, not state opinions as facts, and force opinions down his or her student's throats with threats. I hope that didn't happen in this case.

[gugi]

Are you really trying to convince us that the free market operates in the world of academia?
Why would I? It's as free market as the rest of the society. And I disagree that in a free market the sciences would be teaching falsehoods. The competition for theories that have predictive power takes care of this.

[Bowcephalus]

Jazz.....Grant money......

[jazzman]

Jazz.....Grant money......

"Appropriate," not reality, at least not in all situations. What I meant was that professors need the freedom to tell the truth about their fields of expertise, as oppsosed to being shackled by the opinions of whoever is paying tuition. If the "buyer" thinks abortion should not be discussed in classes regarding embryology or constitutional law, the professor would be acting inappropriately by bending to the buyer's desires. Therefore, that aspect of the free market does not belong in academia.

Similarly, in classes where abortion (or taxes or environmental policy) is germane, the professor should not hesitate to express his opinion, so long as matters of pure opinion have no bearing on the grade (unlike the evidently fictional scenario presented in the earlier thread).

[ScottS]

But that's besides the point. The teacher should be there to inform, not state opinions as facts, and force opinions down his or her student's throats with threats. I hope that didn't happen in this case.

It's difficult for me to equate this to a situation where the quote starts with "it's my opinion that..."

[TimmyBoston]

Just another fair warning here guys. This topic has already gotten out of hand once. Please keep things gentlemanly.

Thanks

[jellywerker]

the students are opened minded, polite in the expression of their views and extremely tolerant of other views, almost to a fault. One of my biggest challenges is getting them to express and argue for their own opinion.


Now, it seems that many students ONLY want to hear what they already know and believe and blow a head gasket when anyone (like me) questions
*snip*
Brain-washing students implies that they are open to suggestion. Everyday, that sort of student becomes more and more rare.

I think the differences between these two types of students has a lot to do with parental involvement in lower schooling. Granted there is plenty of bad parental involvement going on too, but for the most part, the students I have noticed to also think independently and are open to other ideas are the ones whose parents are involved in their schooling, discussing what is being taught, etc... I was raised to be polite, but question just about everything, including myself. I've noticed the the opposite seems to be mostly true too, students who with parents who don't question anything usually believe whatever they are told first, and refuse to acknowledge new (and perhaps truer) ideas.

[BurmaShave]

One of the things my Dad told me when I went back to college is that professors will have their own opinion about everything as will the student body. He was quick to point out that even though the professor's opinion maybe out in left field we should respect his opinion even if he doesn't respect ours. Why? Grading research papers, homework, quizzes and exams are their domain and the less you ruffle their feathers the easier they'll be grading your papers.

For example...my English professor had us write on a controversial subject, I could tell by her reading and writing assignments which way the political winds blew in her house. My paper was on the death penalty. I wrote my paper in favor of her opinion and got an A while another student got a C+ for the same topic that was opposite of her opinion.

He was absolutely right. Is this the way professors should handle their responsibilities? I don't think so. However, if you make waves then you risk losing valuable GPA points which will affect your employment. This will also affect whether or not you get a letter of recommendation from the professors that can increase your chances of employment later.

Why? Politics! Why should we play that game? Because the whole world plays politics and the better we are at that game the easier our lives will be. Do I agree with it? No. If you want to be picked to play on the field instead of sitting on the bench...playing politics is the best way of doing so.

I think its admirable for students to form and stand by their opinions and thoughts...if they go against the prevailing winds life will be more difficult.

[jellywerker]

However, if you make waves then you risk losing valuable GPA points which will affect your employment. This will also affect whether or not you get a letter of recommendation from the professors that can increase your chances of employment later.

I agree with most of your post, ruffle the feathers in private with your friends, not with the professor. I learned my lesson I know. However, I was wondering, does anyone know if they have actually had their GPA checked by a future employer? I hear it all the time, but I haven't met anyone who has said their GPA had anything to do with them getting a job or not.

[ScottS]

For example...my English professor had us write on a controversial subject, I could tell by her reading and writing assignments which way the political winds blew in her house. My paper was on the death penalty. I wrote my paper in favor of her opinion and got an A while another student got a C+ for the same topic that was opposite of her opinion.

Of course, if you turned in a bad paper expressing the same opinion, you would have still gotten an A?

Let me point out that there's a significant chance that a TA graded both papers, and the prof never saw them.

[ScottS]

This will also affect whether or not you get a letter of recommendation from the professors that can increase your chances of employment later.



That's actually as it should be. If you can't express a contrary opinion in a persuasive and polite way, how can you expect a prof to write a good letter? When I can't write a good letter, usually having to do with performance and not opinions, but more often simply because I don't know the student well enough, I tell the student I'm not able to write a good letter, and they should find someone who can, as a mediocre letter helps no one (well, it could help the future employer). If they can't find a few folks who could write a good letter, that says something about the student.

Its the idiots who will write a bad letter instead of turning down the request you need to watch out for. I tell my advisees to flat out ask if the letter will be good. The career office tells me I'm giving good advice that students need to hear, but don't often get.

[moses]

I agree with most of your post, ruffle the feathers in private with your friends, not with the professor. I learned my lesson I know. However, I was wondering, does anyone know if they have actually had their GPA checked by a future employer? I hear it all the time, but I haven't met anyone who has said their GPA had anything to do with them getting a job or not.

Well, if you go on to further schooling, it will for sure be checked by a grad or professional school. And it will be a bigger part of the admission decision than anything else, in most cases. And for that matter, getting a job out of law school, law school grades proved the single most important hiring factor. So I'd say it depends on the field. But I was sort of under the impression for my engineering friends getting jobs straight out of college, that their GPA went on the resume, and was considered important?

-Mo

[ScottS]

But I was sort of under the impression for my engineering friends getting jobs straight out of college, that their GPA went on the resume, and was considered important?

-Mo

If it's missing, recruiters wonder why. You do what you can, short of lying, to make your resume look good.

[gugi]

He was absolutely right. Is this the way professors should handle their responsibilities? I don't think so. However, if you make waves then you risk losing valuable GPA points which will affect your employment. This will also affect whether or not you get a letter of recommendation from the professors that can increase your chances of employment later.

The conclusions you draw from your example make me think that indeed you were graded based on your opinion, not your ability to argue a point based on logical arguments. And that's not how a professor should grade and certainly does not reflect my experience with professors.


Indeed there is plenty of politics everywhere, but at the end of the day the most important factor is your abilities to produce the results you are expected to. Politics is secondary and while it can give you an advantage it usually (not always) is not enough to put you ahead over more qualified person. I'd rather rely on the rules not on the exceptions.



I think its admirable for students to form and stand by their opinions and thoughts...if they go against the prevailing winds life will be more difficult.
You really think so? The rest of your post seems to indicate that you do not admire it enough to personally stand for your opinions if that stand is going to cost you something.

I have no problems with your essay position, but with your motives. I am happy to argue either point of an argument I have a strong position on. It is a good exercise in rational arguing, so that you can construct logical argument for each side.