View Full Version : The Earth Moves, Fact or Fiction?
Since we are taking opinion polls (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=32725) on scientific questions about the earth, how about another?
OldSchoolYoungin
12-31-2007, 11:22 AM
Of course it moves, it rotates.
But in terms of it displacing itself, I'm not sure. Do other bodies (including stars) move? If they do, I'd see no reason why the Earth couldn't move as well. Or burn out :bored:
Of course it moves, it rotates.
Why not say the stars and the sun and moon revolve daily around the Earth? It sure looks that way to me.
OldSchoolYoungin
12-31-2007, 11:29 AM
Why not say the stars and the sun and moon revolve daily around the Earth? It sure looks that way to me.
Because I'm pretty sure scientists have proven otherwise.
ILLfarmboy
12-31-2007, 11:44 AM
I guess I don't understand the question. The earth spins on it's axis, it orbits the sun, the solar system very slowly orbits around the center of the galaxy, the Milky Way along with the Andromeda galaxy is part of a binary system contained within a "local group" of galaxies. The universe as a whole is expanding like raisins in a loaf of rising bread. There is no ultimate fixed point of reference.
From Wikipedia: In the general sense, the absolute velocity of any object through space is not a meaningful question according to Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, which declares that there is no "preferred" inertial frame of reference in space with which to compare the Galaxy's motion. (Motion must always be specified with respect to another object.)
Is this the catch?
liege
12-31-2007, 11:54 AM
Well, I am standing here in my front yard. I am not moving. I don't see any motion other than a breeze through the trees. So no, the earth doesn't move. And don't give me any contradictory evidence that proves otherwise because my mind's made up. Made up, I tell you!
I guess I don't understand the question. The earth spins on it's axis, it orbits the sun,
It sounds like you are voting for a moving Earth: one that revolves on its axis and orbits the sun.
But, as far as I can tell with my own eyes and my own experience the ground is stationary and the sun goes around the earth (not the other way around)
the solar system very slowly orbits around the center of the galaxy, the Milky Way along with the Andromeda galaxy is part of a binary system contained within a "local group" of galaxies. The universe as a whole is expanding like raisins in a loaf of rising bread. There is no ultimate fixed point of reference.
From Wikipedia: In the general sense, the absolute velocity of any object through space is not a meaningful question according to Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, which declares that there is no "preferred" inertial frame of reference in space with which to compare the Galaxy's motion. (Motion must always be specified with respect to another object.)
Is this the catch?
Like evolution and global warming, special relativity is a theory, not a fact. But, even if you accept special relativity, it does not really fit this case because the theory concerns linear, not circular motion. Additionally, circular motion involves acceleration not just velocity.
rickw
12-31-2007, 12:01 PM
All motion is relative. It depends on your prospective.
Bowcephalus
12-31-2007, 12:07 PM
All spelling is relative.....it depends on your perspective
Bowcephalus
12-31-2007, 12:09 PM
I shall return later to offer my view...........after this poll has time to establish a consensus............
JBHoren
12-31-2007, 12:10 PM
"I feel the Earth, move, under my feet" -- Carole King
ILLfarmboy
12-31-2007, 12:37 PM
If the earth didn't spin on it's axis east to west and west to east flight times would be the same. They are not.
daveesq
12-31-2007, 12:39 PM
If the earth didn't spin on it's axis east to west and west to east flight times would be the same. They are not.
Is this tongue-in-cheek?
ILLfarmboy
12-31-2007, 12:41 PM
Is this tongue-in-cheek?
NO.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/dynamics/q0027.shtml
Scratch that, I read further.
who would have thought it would be so hard to demonstrate the earth moves?
If the earth didn't spin on it's axis east to west and west to east flight times would be the same. They are not.
The air moving is enough to make e-w flight times differ from w-e times
daveesq
12-31-2007, 12:43 PM
NO.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/dynamics/q0027.shtml
From the linked page:
"So, the end result of that long discussion is that the rotation of the Earth has no effect on the travel time of an aircraft. Actually, as you suggested, it is the headwinds and tailwinds that cause the change in travel times."
rickw
12-31-2007, 12:55 PM
Hewlett Packard did an experiment, years ago, flying and atomic clock around the world. Prior to flight, it was synced with a stationary clock. After a trip one way around the world, there was a difference between the two. Flying the opposite direction, eliminated the difference. This, in part, proved Einstein's theory that time slowed as one approaches the velocity of light.
ILLfarmboy
12-31-2007, 01:02 PM
hum. How about satellites that are in a geosynchronous orbit? Heavenly bodies move relative to the apparently stationary satellite but the satellite can't be truly stationary because it relies on centrifugal force to keep it from falling to earth?
Roman414
12-31-2007, 01:07 PM
If you assume that the earth stands still and everything else moves you could work out all the relative movements and do all the predictions but the math would be much more difficult. It greatly simplifies the math to assume that the earth rotates and orbits the sun.
ScottS
12-31-2007, 01:14 PM
If you assume that the earth stands still and everything else moves you could work out all the relative movements and do all the predictions but the math would be much more difficult. It greatly simplifies the math to assume that the earth rotates and orbits the sun.
The idea is that the math doesn't work out at all unless you assume the earth moves.
The idea is that the math doesn't work out at all unless you assume the earth moves.
But if there is no absolute frame of reference (according to Einstein and followers) then it can't be the case that the math works one way, but not another. If the theory of relativity is correct, the math has to work both ways.
hedliniv
12-31-2007, 01:33 PM
It's absolutely fiction! It is the liberal media that promotes such nonsense. My brother told me that the Sun revolves around the earth. He has no training on the subject nor do I; but it makes sense to me!
:wink:
OldSchoolYoungin
12-31-2007, 01:39 PM
I don't know nuthin 'bout that there roundness of the Earth and all that yankee talk either, I looks out the door and allz I see is flat :lol:
ScottS
12-31-2007, 01:46 PM
But if there is no absolute frame of reference (according to Einstein and followers) then it can't be the case that the math works one way, but not another. If the theory of relativity is correct, the math has to work both ways.
You don't need an absolute frame of reference. The geometry of a stationary Earth fails in every relative reference frame. Heliocentrism is considered proven. Interestingly, it is proven by Kepler, using the data collected by Tycho Brahe, me favorite character in the History of Science, who himself believed in a geocentric model.
FWIW, the only reason why geocentrism ever got a grip was because people couldn't understand the great distances involved, and thus expected larger parallaxes.
Must Dash
12-31-2007, 01:47 PM
I thought that everything revolved around me. :confused:
Cheers and happy new year.
Jeremy
.
arcman
12-31-2007, 04:08 PM
...
Like evolution and global warming, special relativity is a theory, not a fact. But, even if you accept special relativity, it does not really fit this case because the theory concerns linear, not circular motion. Additionally, circular motion involves acceleration not just velocity.The use of the term "theory" in the scientific community isn't the same as using the term theory in the vernacular. Something that has gone through the scientific method to be qualified as a theory (not a hypothesis) which has been verified by peer-review is effectively scientific fact. Of course there are some theories that are more mature with a more significant bodies of evidence than others, but evolution? Relativity? Heliocentrism? These are fact without doubt.
Sabledog
12-31-2007, 04:54 PM
"I feel the Earth, move, under my feet" -- Carole King
Damn! How do I change my vote? What more proof do you need than that?:001_huh:
apex.predator
12-31-2007, 05:22 PM
The use of the term "theory" in the scientific community isn't the same as using the term theory in the vernacular. Something that has gone through the scientific method to be qualified as a theory (not a hypothesis) which has been verified by peer-review is effectively scientific fact. Of course there are some theories that are more mature with a more significant bodies of evidence than others, but evolution? Relativity? Heliocentrism? These are fact without doubt.
arcman, what you said. This forum is great, but either I'm missing the point of this thread or my opinion of the forum went down when I saw that this poll is posted seriously.
Maybe someone has taken retro a bit too far. But, hey, ain't no thang.
1 Chronicles 16:30 "He fixed the earth firm and immovable."
Psalm 93:1 "The world also is established, that it cannot be moved."
'Nuff said :cool:
DEmac
01-02-2008, 11:05 AM
1 Chronicles 16:30 "He fixed the earth firm and immovable."
Psalm 93:1 "The world also is established, that it cannot be moved."
'Nuff said :cool:
Oh dear Flying Spaghetti Monster Rolo, please don't take a chance of turning this into a religious debate too. Nick already closed the "four horsemen" thread.
liege
01-02-2008, 11:06 AM
Oh dear Flying Spaghetti Monster Rolo, please don't take a chance of turning this into a religious debate too. Nick already closed the "four horsemen" thread.
I think he's firm and immovable on that one.
Oh dear Flying Spaghetti Monster Rolo, please don't take a chance of turning this into a religious debate too. Nick already closed the "four horsemen" thread.
Alright, I know that this thread was started as a joke, or at least I hope it was:eek:, so maybe I shouldn't have. It's just that that is the only argument that can one can make in favor of an unmovable Earth. Just playing Devil's advocate.
I dig my grave, I move the earth.
I am not a scientist but I play one on TV and on internet forums.
Next, there'll be some thread about some imaginary device where two people can talk to each when they are miles and miles apart. (Or kms and kms apart for the non-Imperial crowd.)
rabidpotatochip
01-02-2008, 12:27 PM
I'm not a scientist either, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Anyway, as has already been mentioned it's basically impossible to determine any kind of motion without a fixed point of reference. Same goes for distance. With regards to the Earth I figure it moves a bit if for no other reason than to change things up a bit every now and then.
Mr. Gillette
01-02-2008, 01:07 PM
I have proof of my position that it doesn't...those Wise Men from the East followed the Star, not the earth! It's a known fact. They also had fire helmets on because it said they came from afar...
I was thinking on Christmas Eve, looking at Begat stuff, that if you took 2000 years from now to "then" and added the begatting, right back to Adam, you'd probably find the Earth was 5000 years old or something like that.
That, and I believe it because Pat Robertson says it, and other people who I know say it...so it must be so. There were no dinosaurs, either, and Charleton Heston led the people of Israel out of Egypt on dry land.
Anyone who disagrees must argue these points with Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson, and the late Rev. Ernest Angley.
Some six years ago I made a business trip to a nice traditional small Arab country in the Gulf. The then long-former ruler pretended the earth to be fixed and immovable in the geometric center of the universe, following some extreme Koran teachings. To affirm the opposite was a safe way to be in a hell of a problem with the authorities. The current leader is way more enlightened. Probably he also realized that sat-tv dishes are too good points, to disprove a fixed earth.
Dr. Mike
01-02-2008, 01:23 PM
I have proof of my position that it doesn't...those Wise Men from the East followed the Star, not the earth! It's a known fact. They also had fire helmets on because it said they came from afar...
I was thinking on Christmas Eve, looking at Begat stuff, that if you took 2000 years from now to "then" and added the begatting, right back to Adam, you'd probably find the Earth was 5000 years old or something like that.
That, and I believe it because Pat Robertson says it, and other people who I know say it...so it must be so. There were no dinosaurs, either, and Charleton Heston led the people of Israel out of Egypt on dry land.
Anyone who disagrees must argue these points with Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson, and the late Rev. Ernest Angley.
Are you trolling for a fight? Between this comment and the one I saw over on the "Czar of the Universe" thread, it seems you are attempting to push the right buttons to get someone to argue with you. Maybe I am wrong.
stevensj2
01-02-2008, 01:37 PM
I'm still not sure if this thread is a joke or not.
daveesq
01-02-2008, 01:38 PM
I'm still not sure if this thread is a joke or not.
I'm betting that it's disguised commentary on the Global Warming thread. At least, that's why I voted the way I did.
rabidpotatochip
01-02-2008, 01:48 PM
I'm betting that it's disguised commentary on the Global Warming thread. At least, that's why I voted the way I did.
Personally, I'd rather believe it's a joke.
Of course, I never voted. I feel like such a hippie.
I'm still not sure if this thread is a joke or not.
I would make a joke about the Leno Show and the writers' strike, but I need someone to write it for me. :lol:
Mr. Gillette
01-02-2008, 02:20 PM
Are you trolling for a fight? Between this comment and the one I saw over on the "Czar of the Universe" thread, it seems you are attempting to push the right buttons to get someone to argue with you. Maybe I am wrong.
Nope...just working hard to get my tongue out from my cheeks. It's firmly planted there. Stand down, John Wayne! I'm a pacifist and a chicken, at heart... but there ARE some silly ideas out there...
...and some of them are mine!
No argument there.
DirtyDave
01-02-2008, 02:27 PM
The Earth is also flat. The home of the Flat Earth Society is here in Houston. It's members all work for NASA. :wink:
apex.predator
01-02-2008, 02:36 PM
During lunar eclipses, Earth's shadow covers the moon. That shadow is circular.
liege
01-02-2008, 02:37 PM
A frisbee will do the same thing.
apex.predator
01-02-2008, 02:43 PM
A frisbee will do the same thing.
So, how's that navel-gazing woking for you? :tongue:
liege
01-02-2008, 02:48 PM
Well, mine's an "innie" so it's only semi-circular. At least that's the way it appears to me. But if I look straight down it does look flat (the belly button, not my stomach).
Einar
01-02-2008, 04:35 PM
PUH-LEASE !
People!
The earth is a flat plate resting on the back of a giant tortoise.
And let this be the end of this discussion.
see here >>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
Einar
Roman414
01-02-2008, 08:18 PM
My smarter brother should be in on this. He claims there is no such thing as light, just the absence of darkness, He calls light bulbs "dark suckers". He also claims to have worked out the formula for a universal solvent, but coudn't find anything to keep it in.
Rayman
01-02-2008, 08:25 PM
1 Chronicles 16:30 "He fixed the earth firm and immovable."
Psalm 93:1 "The world also is established, that it cannot be moved."
'Nuff said :cool:
That says it all for me. God doesn't lie.
Ookla The Mok
01-02-2008, 08:25 PM
Who cares if the earth moves or not? Your motion can be cleaner and cheaper with the use of my 100 mpg carburetor!
I thought that everything revolved around me. :confused:
Yeah, we really can't be more specific than that about the exact center of the world that everything revolves around....
Sure, a frame of reference in which the Earth doesn't move is an alright one. It's not an inertial frame of reference and indeed all math in it is harder, but it does work out either way. And I'm pretty sure I lost at least 90% of you at the beginning of the italics...
Hey, who painted my tortoise green $%$#%@#
ILLfarmboy
01-02-2008, 09:40 PM
[QUOTE=gugi;410329].... And I'm pretty sure I lost at least 90% of you at the beginning of the italics...
QUOTE]
Vaguely. Are you referring to the fact that both the earth and the person standing on it are both moving in concert. It other words if you jump up you will come back down in the same spot like a person jumping up and down on a flatbed truck as it tools down the road?
mental
01-02-2008, 09:45 PM
PUH-LEASE !
People!
The earth is a flat plate resting on the back of a giant tortoise.
And let this be the end of this discussion.
see here >>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
Einar
Minor correction: all Discworld fans know that there is indeed a giant tortoise, but astride him are the four elephants, and they in turn carry the world. Happy to be of service in clearing this up!
.... And I'm pretty sure I lost at least 90% of you at the beginning of the italics...
Vaguely. Are you referring to the fact that both the earth and the person standing on it are both moving in concert. It other words if you jump up you will come back down in the same spot like a person jumping up and down on a flatbed truck as it tools down the road?
not quite. inertial frame of reference is one where Newton's first and second laws of motion are valid (hence the math is simplest). there's an infinite number of them, they move with a constant velocity relative to each other (zero acceleration), and they are all equivalent for any purpose. the earth is not such frame of reference. the sun isn't either. neither is the galaxy. the 'center of the universe' is such. everything else has an acceleration relative to any inertial frames of reference and that's why they are qualitatively (and quantitatively) different. The thing is that the only way to tell is by making a measurement and every measurement has finite precision, so you can only approximately determine what is an inertial frame of reference relative to you/the earth/the sun/etc. (and of course all other inertial frames of reference are obtained from the one you found by adding a constant velocity to it.)
i think in US this is a college level science, most europeans should be learning it in high school, and chinese probably learn that in kindergarden
:)
BTW if you look at the left and the right banks of any river you can be sure that the Earth is not an inertial frame of reference because there are some unaccounted forces that make the left bank very different from the right bank (depends in which hemisphere you are). The same way if you use enough water when you shave, you'll notice that it rotates as it flows out of the sink (again direction depending on the hemisphere). That cannot be accounted by Newton's first and second laws and you've got to accept that things are not as simple as these laws prescribe. Whether it's because of the the inertial forces from the Earth acceleration, or because Newton's laws are just BS, or it's the angels/devils that are making it, or the tortoise is just breathing heavily, is up to you to decide....
DirtyDave
01-03-2008, 05:09 AM
Minor correction: all Discworld fans know that there is indeed a giant tortoise, but astride him are the four elephants, and they in turn carry the world. Happy to be of service in clearing this up!
There was a fifth elephant, but that is a discussion for another thread.:biggrin:
I wonder what the lather is like in the multi-verse?
apex.predator
01-03-2008, 05:22 AM
BTW if you look at the left and the right banks of any river...
We're standing at a river. Whose left and whose right - yours or mine? Do you mean east and west instead, or maybe north and south? If we're flowing down the river .. but wouldn't that be port and starboard? :biggrin:
jazzman
01-03-2008, 05:24 AM
"I feel the Earth, move, under my feet" -- Carole King
I'm pretty sure that Carole King is not a Republican, and as soon as I can confirm the rumours that Al Gore favors the theory that the Earth moves I will take a firm stance that I am sure that the Earth does not move. Why bother asking scientists?
ScottS
01-03-2008, 05:54 AM
That cannot be accounted by Newton's first and second laws and you've got to accept that things are not as simple as these laws prescribe. Whether it's because of the the inertial forces from the Earth acceleration, or because Newton's laws are just BS, or it's the angels/devils that are making it, or the tortoise is just breathing heavily, is up to you to decide....
I didn't realize Coriolis forces lives so far outside of physics.
Mr. Gillette
01-03-2008, 08:50 AM
[QUOTE=gugi;410329].... And I'm pretty sure I lost at least 90% of you at the beginning of the italics...
QUOTE]
Vaguely. Are you referring to the fact that both the earth and the person standing on it are both moving in concert. It other words if you jump up you will come back down in the same spot like a person jumping up and down on a flatbed truck as it tools down the road?
I'd never jump off a flatbed truck going down the road. The flatbed truck is a spinning sphere, and I'd never land in the same place.
Don't you know ANYTHING?
If the world really IS round, how come we pay money to watch circus performers balance on round balls and we find them clever?
I didn't realize Coriolis forces lives so far outside of physics.
moi non plus
The flatbed truck is a spinning sphere, and I'd never land in the same place.
Them tricksy greedy automakers - call a rotating sphere a flat and a bed. I hope God makes all their tires flat as well, that's gotta teach them a lesson....
If the world really IS round, how come we pay money to watch circus performers balance on round balls and we find them clever?
Now you're telling me - I want my money back!
I wonder what the lather is like in the multi-verse?
It really sucks. It's all bubbles, all the way down :lol: :biggrin: :smile:
We're standing at a river. Whose left and whose right - yours or mine? Do you mean east and west instead, or maybe north and south? If we're flowing down the river .. but wouldn't that be port and starboard? :biggrin:
Nope, I meant left bank and right bank, there's always one left and one right and it don't matter which one is which, yours left or mine (as long it's the same person's left and right). All I said was they're very different. If I want to tell you which is different in what way I'd have to say which hemisphere I'm talking about and if I'm facing the current, I got my back to it....
we happy? or do I have to bust out the equations? ain't gonna be pretty, i can tell you that much!
<sigh> <mumble> kids... don't know who they're messin' with...</mumble>
rabidpotatochip
01-03-2008, 12:39 PM
Nope, I meant left bank and right bank, there's always one left and one right and it don't matter which one is which, yours left or mine (as long it's the same person's left and right). All I said was they're very different. If I want to tell you which is different in what way I'd have to say which hemisphere I'm talking about and if I'm facing the current, I got my back to it....
we happy? or do I have to bust out the equations? ain't gonna be pretty, i can tell you that much!
<sigh> <mumble> kids... don't know who they're messin' with...</mumble>
I'd love to see an equation on this one. :biggrin:
I can't help but think of a line from Futurama, though... "Look! Four identical castles! Each more identical than the last!". Or telling two people to stand exactly the same distance apart.
I thought that everything revolved around me. :confused:
Hi, Mrs. Ouch.
I see you changed your user name and avatar, but you're not fooling me for a minute/ :thumbup:
apex.predator
01-03-2008, 03:35 PM
<sigh> <mumble> kids... don't know who they're messin' with...</mumble>
Lighten up, Francis.
Trev1960
01-03-2008, 05:54 PM
What is the point of this poll? The Earth move, the Sun moves, the univers moves. Ervey damn thing moves.
rabidpotatochip
01-03-2008, 05:57 PM
What is the point of this poll? The Earth move, the Sun moves, the univers moves. Ervey damn thing moves.
Clearly you've never seen my bathroom scale.
imaginary.skull
01-03-2008, 08:48 PM
Clearly you've never seen my bathroom scale.
:lol:
shadow
01-04-2008, 10:06 PM
the earth is round-buy a ten dollar pair of binoculars, go to the docks, and watch ships come in...and watch their masts RISE over the edge of the Earth.
The Earth moves. Want proof? Go buy an elephant gun. Shoot said Elephant gun. Then, lay on your back and shoot the elephant gun. Congratulations! You just moved the Earth. Don't believe me? Do it again, THEN come back and argue.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
P.S. if you don't know why I'm laughing, you've never shot an elephant gun.
P.P.S. I'm laughing 'cause they hurt. <rubs shoulder in memory of pain> Damn gun obsessed grandpa letting me shoot his guns...
SteveW
01-07-2008, 09:08 AM
Minor correction: all Discworld fans know that there is indeed a giant tortoise, but astride him are the four elephants, and they in turn carry the world. Happy to be of service in clearing this up!
And as Pratchett (poor guy!) fans we know that there used to be a fifth Fifth Elephant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Elephant) that explains the presence of lard between various strata.
Great books.
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