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mark the shoeshine boy
06-26-2006, 08:26 AM
There is talk in the air about pulling half of our troops out within one year. How do you guys feel about what we have done in Iraq ?

We live in a changing world...

mark the shoeshine boy

NMMB
06-26-2006, 08:28 AM
Mark,

Do you think that this thread will go off-topic as quickly as the North Korea thread?

Austin
06-26-2006, 08:55 AM
There is talk in the air about pulling half of our troops out within one year. How do you guys feel about what we have done in Iraq ?

We live in a changing world...

mark the shoeshine boy

Amen. I hope it happens.

JohnP
06-26-2006, 11:03 AM
I think it could happen soon, as the Iraqis are stepping up to the plate now, which is terrifically good news.
It will be a good day for us all. I've been there, true, as have others on the forum, but I would just as soon Iraq's new government takes charge (as it seems to be doing) and the rest of us go home soon after. I am not against going back some day, but I would prefer to go as a tourist....without all the other stuff that went on during my last trip there. Many of the Iraqis seemed like decent folk to me; like anywhere else there are always going to be people unhappy with their government, or other people...that is never going to change, no matter how long we stay or do not stay, IMHO. If the mission seems to be a success, I can see no reason for staying, unless they just WANT us there for some reason or other(?) which I imagine would be more of an economic decision than a military one.
Anyway, success, especially in the middle of so much controversy, is IMHO always good news.
John P.

madmedic
06-26-2006, 11:35 AM
The war was easily won.....the peace not so easy. I was there as well....not sure if I agreed with the original decision (well the reasons given)....but now that we are in....I think we have to see it through. Shouldn't be a political decision...stay until the job is finished...and not a minute more. Would be such a waste of lives if everything is thrown away for political expediency.

Brian

mrob
06-26-2006, 12:11 PM
Mark,

Do you think that this thread will go off-topic as quickly as the North Korea thread?

Exactly what I was thinking. I'd never ask that these kinds of questions not be posted--it is America, eh?--but I must confess that I've started flipping past them whenever I see them.

Its not that I don't care about these kinds of issues--rather, its that I care deeply, and its painful to see the deep divide in our country that is played out each time we struggle to come to some sort of consensus on these divisive topics.

I've also realized that I come to B&B, in part, to get away from this kind of debate--but, to each his own!

Kyle
06-26-2006, 03:53 PM
Exactly what I was thinking. I'd never ask that these kinds of questions not be posted--it is America, eh?--but I must confess that I've started flipping past them whenever I see them.

Its not that I don't care about these kinds of issues--rather, its that I care deeply, and its painful to see the deep divide in our country that is played out each time we struggle to come to some sort of consensus on these divisive topics.

I've also realized that I come to B&B, in part, to get away from this kind of debate--but, to each his own!

Indeed! I come here to kick back, relax, and visit about shaving and shaving products. Religion and politics are two topics that can guarantee the eventual showing of an individual's character weaknesses/flaws as someone nearly always resorts to name calling, etc. Additionally, I've NEVER EVER read one of these discussions where one of the gents eventually said, "Hey Bob, you've really shown me the light and I am reversing my opinion on this very controversial topic. Thank you for persistently pounding me with the truth until I awoke from my slumber of ignorance!" For those of you who enjoy these threads/posts, good for you. Enjoy them, but don't expect to read my comments there.

mark the shoeshine boy
06-26-2006, 04:20 PM
gee, hope that i didn't offend anyone. But in my real life, when I go to the barbershop, ihear these discussions along with local topics...we always get along and continue to be gentlemen about it.

I have learned a great deal from the view points that have been written and really must say, Thank You, for those who did.

It may be hard to believe, but there is a serious side to me. I can always resume bad jokes and tina grant pictures.

But I prefer to learn from others, as I always have done.

have fun.

Mark the shoeshine boy

rtaylor61
06-26-2006, 04:25 PM
gee, hope that i didn't offend anyone. But in my real life, when I go to the barbershop, ihear these discussions along with local topics...we always get along and continue to be gentlemen about it.

I have learned a great deal from the view points that have been written and really must say, Thank You, for those who did.

It may be hard to believe, but there is a serious side to me. I can always resume bad jokes and tina grant pictures.

But I prefer to learn from others, as I always have done.

have fun.

Mark the shoeshine boy

Mark,

I don't think you have offended anyone. Kyle was just stating that he won't be participating in the discussion. And I agree with him. There are a lot of off-topic discussions I will participate in, but not religious or political. I have no issues with the thread or anyone participating, it just won't be me.

Randy

Kyle
06-26-2006, 04:27 PM
gee, hope that i didn't offend anyone. But in my real life, when I go to the barbershop, ihear these discussions along with local topics...we always get along and continue to be gentlemen about it.

I have learned a great deal from the view points that have been written and really must say, Thank You, for those who did.

It may be hard to believe, but there is a serious side to me. I can always resume bad jokes and tina grant pictures.

But I prefer to learn from others, as I always have done.

have fun.

Mark the shoeshine boy
No offense taken here. I was simply stating why I don't typically participate in said threads. The difference that I find in "barbershop" versus message board conversations is most greatly realized in the anonymity of the poster. There are a lot of things said during a heated message board discussion that would never come out in a face to face conversation. In real life, name calling can result in physical altercation so folks generally behave better.

mark the shoeshine boy
06-26-2006, 04:30 PM
today on the showroom a young man got his first vehicle. He was on a 2 week leave from Iraq. He has to go back for 4 more months. I looked at the young man barely 20 years old and hoped that he will come back home to enjoy his new car.

I understand what we did for the Iraqs but it's real life and you just don't press the reset button and everyone comes home alive.

the older I get, the less that I sometimes don't understand.

mark the shoeshine boy

JohnP
06-26-2006, 05:37 PM
The war was easily won.....the peace not so easy. I was there as well....not sure if I agreed with the original decision (well the reasons given)....but now that we are in....I think we have to see it through. Shouldn't be a political decision...stay until the job is finished...and not a minute more. Would be such a waste of lives if everything is thrown away for political expediency.

Brian
Brian, I wholeheartedly agree. Sometimes I have difficulty saying things as succinctly as you did, but I agree with every word.
John P.

yasuo200365
06-26-2006, 05:41 PM
Does anyone seriously believe that if the troops pulled out say within the next year that Iraq would be stable fledgling democracy with a long term future?

If the U.S. (the U.K. is very much a junior partner) make such a decision then I hope our leaders will be held responsible for the loss of life of our countryman and the many thousands of civilians who have died already, and in the future as a result of such a decision.

There will be no saving graces, the whole thing would have been an unmitigated disaster from start to finish.

Regards
John

NMMB
06-27-2006, 07:18 AM
...There are a lot of off-topic discussions I will participate in, but not religious or political...
Randy

There are a few things that I've learned that you just don't discuss with most people unless you know them very well:
- Religion
- Politics
- Money
- Sports

(though, I admit that I sometimes can't help myself and get roped into these conversations)

Xert
06-27-2006, 10:43 AM
Brian, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments as well. I vehemently opposed the Iraqi war, but to pull out prematurely would only make what I personally see as a terrible mistake into an even worse one.

What I am interested in is not so much the pullout of the troops as the end of America's military presence. Unlike most people who opposed the war (who put forth these conspiracy theories about it being fought over oil, which I view as a secondary objective), I personally argued that it was part of a strategic global re-positioning of America's military - a move from the Cold War bases in eastern Europe to consolidate an American presence with bases in the Middle East. The degree to which the US totally resigns the entirety of its military positions in Iraq will go a long ways to proving or disproving my theory.



As for the discussion of such potentially divisive topics, I agree entirely that they should often be avoided and rarely do discuss them socially. But that is why I enjoyed having the opportunity to do so in such a gentlemanly manner in the other thread. Certainly there is a degree of anonymity that can allow some to say some rather harsh things, but that should hardly prevent the rest of us from the pleasure of each other's thoughts so long as we conduct ourselves appropriately.

JohnP
06-27-2006, 11:19 AM
Stephen, for what it's worth, while I was generally on the opposing viewpoint from you, I have definitely enjoyed the debate. If we always all agreed on everything, it would be a boring place indeed.
I agree with the other statements about a premature pullout being a seriously bad idea....and yet, I really hope we (as Americans) can pull out of there and that the time to do so arrives soon. I do not believe in setting public dates for it, but I do think having certain requirements (like, well, success....) met beforehand is perfectly acceptable.
Interesting point about changing the American military presence. I don't know, your guess is as good as mine, but it does make sense on several levels.
I also find I have a difficult time avoiding topics I know are best left alone....the hard part is remaining gentlemanly in such discussions (I have had varying success) for as soon as you get irate and start ranting (sorry....I'm guilty sometimes, I know) your credibility in the debate goes down the tube.
That said, I couldn't think of a better group of guys to disagree with....:biggrin:
John P.