DE versus Straight

[LX_Emergency]

Ok, so I got a DE for my dad. He tried it, tore up his face (while being very gentle he says) and decided it might not be for him. He gave the Gilette adjustable to me.

So I decided to use it and see if it compared to the straight.

All in all, it was a pretty good shave. i got out some nice soap, hot water, shower, brush. You know. The works.

The results:
Smooth, yes but not as smooth as I get with a straight. It might be simply because I've gotten better at using a straight or that I'm not good enough at the DE yet but somehow I don't think that's the point.

Feel, no irritation or anything whatsoever. Very comparable to the straight.

Nicks, got more nicks than I did with my straight the first day. The second day however I did much better. I set the DE on 9 for the first with the grain passes all aover the face and the on 3 for the across and against the grain passes. That way I got 1 little bloodspot which is ok and comparable to using the straight most days.

Time, THIS is where the DE beats my straights. It was at least twice as fast.

So I decided to keep the thing for when I'm in a hurry. When pressed for time I'll use the DE. When wanting to relax or get the best shave I'll be using my straight.

Successfull experiment I guess.

[joel]

Try a merkur futur/vision or Slant Bar loaded with a feather DE - and it'll give yer straight razor a run for its money as far as closeness goes. :eek:

[With The Grain]

....

[LX_Emergency]

gentlemen, please. I wasn't turning the DE down. I used i this morning. (I have the flu and didn't want to stand half naked in the bathroom for long.)

All I said was that the straight and the DE have different points in which they exell. The shave I got today was VERY smooth. Just not as smooth as I got with my straight yesterday. If I hadn't been usgin a straight for a month or 2 so far I wouldn't even have noticed the difference. It sure beats the M3.

I just has different strong points.

[rschul2]

Ok, so I got a DE for my dad. He tried it, tore up his face (while being very gentle he says) and decided it might not be for him. He gave the Gilette adjustable to me.

So I decided to use it and see if it compared to the straight.

All in all, it was a pretty good shave. i got out some nice soap, hot water, shower, brush. You know. The works.

The results:
Smooth, yes but not as smooth as I get with a straight. It might be simply because I've gotten better at using a straight or that I'm not good enough at the DE yet but somehow I don't think that's the point.

Feel, no irritation or anything whatsoever. Very comparable to the straight.

Nicks, got more nicks than I did with my straight the first day. The second day however I did much better. I set the DE on 9 for the first with the grain passes all aover the face and the on 3 for the across and against the grain passes. That way I got 1 little bloodspot which is ok and comparable to using the straight most days.

Time, THIS is where the DE beats my straights. It was at least twice as fast.

So I decided to keep the thing for when I'm in a hurry. When pressed for time I'll use the DE. When wanting to relax or get the best shave I'll be using my straight.

Successfull experiment I guess.
Interesting. I don't own a straight, but I've enjoyed shaving with my Dovo shavette when I've had the time to do so. For me, I just can't see myself giving more than 30 minutes a day on a shave. Hence why I use my DE, but on a rare occasion, I really enjoy the shave with the Shavette. Glad to see that I am not the only one with this perspective.

[With The Grain]

....

[Joe Lerch]

Ok, so I got a DE for my dad. He tried it, tore up his face (while being very gentle he says) and decided it might not be for him. He gave the Gilette adjustable to me.

So I decided to use it and see if it compared to the straight.

All in all, it was a pretty good shave. i got out some nice soap, hot water, shower, brush. You know. The works.

The results:
Smooth, yes but not as smooth as I get with a straight. It might be simply because I've gotten better at using a straight or that I'm not good enough at the DE yet but somehow I don't think that's the point.

Feel, no irritation or anything whatsoever. Very comparable to the straight.

Nicks, got more nicks than I did with my straight the first day. The second day however I did much better. I set the DE on 9 for the first with the grain passes all aover the face and the on 3 for the across and against the grain passes. That way I got 1 little bloodspot which is ok and comparable to using the straight most days.

Time, THIS is where the DE beats my straights. It was at least twice as fast.

So I decided to keep the thing for when I'm in a hurry. When pressed for time I'll use the DE. When wanting to relax or get the best shave I'll be using my straight.

Successfull experiment I guess.I shave mostly with str8s, but I can tell you that a Futru, slant or Vision loaded with Feather blades will outshve them all, execept a Feather str8. I no longer use str8s for the shave.

[Jonnybc]

I quite often shave with a Feather Straight but my technique is soo poor I have to tidy up with a DE razor. This usually happens after I've cut myself during a lapse in concentration.

The areas of my face I shave and get right with the Feather are totally smooth after two passes (with and across the grain). No extra stubble is removed by my DE razor where I shaved correctly with the Feather.

[ouch]

I may be in the minority here, but I get closer shaves with my DE's than with my straights.

I know, I know- you're thinking "Why, he just doesn't have a straight that's sharp, the silly wanker!" Believe me, I know what's sharp and what's not. A really close shave is the result of a continuous reduction in beard length, something for which a DE is far more conducive. Two passes? A straight rocks. Getting every little last bit? The DE is better for detail work.

I love straight razor shaving as much or more than anyone, but I do it for the luxurious feel, the connection with the past, and the zen-like experience. I don't do it for the closest shave, which is not necessarily the best shave.

To me, the beauty of a straight shave is in how you must balance the angle, speed, and pressure. When all the stars are aligned, it's magic.

[Joe Lerch]

I may be in the minority here, but I get closer shaves with my DE's than with my straights.

I know, I know- you're thinking "Why, he just doesn't have a straight that's sharp, the silly wanker!" Believe me, I know what's sharp and what's not. A really close shave is the result of a continuous reduction in beard length, something for which a DE is far more conducive. Two passes? A straight rocks. Getting every little last bit? The DE is better for detail work.

I love straight razor shaving as much or more than anyone, but I do it for the luxurious feel, the connection with the past, and the zen-like experience. I don't do it for the closest shave, which is not necessarily the best shave.

To me, the beauty of a straight shave is in how you must balance the angle, speed, and pressure. When all the stars are aligned, it's magic.For me this is only true when I use Feather blades. Otherwise the str8s give a better shave.

Your str8s may be perfect and your shave still not satisfactory. It's a matter of technique, and guys develope it at different rates. If anything str8s are better for reduction in unexperienced hands. In fact, until your technique grooves, that's all you can do. It took a long time (many months) for me to get a totally close shave with a str8. I still finish a str8 shave with a featherjector. I just can't finish some difficult spots with a str8.

My motivations for using str8s are the same as yours.

[EL Alamein]

They are both very efficient instruments for getting the job done and injecting some fun into the routine. They are certainly a world better than the modern cartridges. For me, I use straights because nothing gets me closer. I've used a DE from time to time and it gets the nod for speed.

Chris

[Kyle]

As several gents have alluded to, it all comes down to your proficiency with each tool. I feel like I've got the DE nailed, but I've got a ways to go with the straight. My goal (someday) is to be able to get a great shave from any razor I use.

[Joe Lerch]

As several gents have alluded to, it all comes down to your proficiency with each tool. I feel like I've got the DE nailed, but I've got a ways to go with the straight. My goal (someday) is to be able to get a great shave from any razor I use.I can't really make the comparison, because when I started using a DE there was no one to help or get information from, it was just like using the Fusion today, and you weren't likely to get much useful information from the commercial sources. On the other hand, when I started using str8s, I had a wealth of online information and help available.

My overall impression is that learning technique on the two is about the same. The str8 is just scarier. The first time I used a str8 I had about 45 years of DE experience, yet I had to calm myself several times before I could touch the blade to my face. Getting the str8 to shave (assuming you received it shave ready) is not difficult. Getting it to shave well is another story.

I believe that as a seasoned DE shaver you have a distinct disadvantage when you try a str8. To all the guys coming from the commercial stuff it seems like a blessing when they first shave, but the skilled DE shaver wonders why he has to put up with inferior shaves. In the other words, the learning period before your str8 shaves get as good as your DE shaves is significant, and during that time you experience great frustration. You really begin to feel like it's not worth it. If you use a Merkur razor and Feather blades, IMO your shaves will never be as good as you DE shaves, unless you also use a Feather str8.

So, once you've learned how to use a DE well, don't jump on the str8 bandwagon and expect immediate resultes. If you go to a Feather str8, the shaving action is more like a DE, especially if you've been using Feather blades, so the transition should be easier, and you shaves should be great fairly quickly. Plus, you don't have to learn how to strop and hone. So, the transition from the DE that I would recommend is: Feather blades, Feather str8, then str8s. As I've said, there are many good reasons to shave with str8s. For me, getting the best shave is not one of them.

My experience is that once you've learned how to use a DE well, that skill transfers easily to any safety razor and not so easily to str8s. That doesn't apply to a super sharp razor (Feather) and extreme edge exposure, which require additional skills. Once you can shave well with str8s and super sharp razors as well, you can probably shave with any razor and instictively make the necessary adjustments wothout too much effort. The hardest transition for me is when I switch between super sharp razors and str8s after having used the other one exclusively for a while. Another example is that when skilled str8 shavers use a DE they complain theat it's not as forgiving and that it nicks them. That's a result of the different characteristics of the two types of razors and the techniques used for each.

[Kyle]

Very good insights, Joe. Many of the things you mention are what I have been experiencing. Even if my straight shaves are never as good as my DE ones, I want to master the straight for the old-school, manliness of it all, and essentially the list of reasons that you and Ouch share.

[AFDavis11]

I find a DE cuts me too often. Using an ultra light touch can be, well, different. I like the control I have over the sharpness and smoothness of the blade with my straights. So I would never compare a DE to a straight because you have, what, 10 different common DE blade companies (not to mention differing razors) as well as probably an infinite number of straight variables (based mostly on honing and stropping abilities and probably steel quality too).

One thing I like about all DE razors though is the wieght of the head. I think that helps sooooo much with a good shave. I can imagine, given all factors t(as Joe often mentions) the Feather straight would achieve an incredible shave (although I didn't give mine enough time). There is significant head weight behind a completely open blade. Probably the best of both worlds.

[Joe Lerch]

I find a DE cuts me too often. Using an ultra light touch can be, well, different. I like the control I have over the sharpness and smoothness of the blade with my straights. So I would never compare a DE to a straight because you have, what, 10 different common DE blade companies (not to mention differing razors) as well as probably an infinite number of straight variables (based mostly on honing and stropping abilities and probably steel quality too).

One thing I like about all DE razors though is the wieght of the head. I think that helps sooooo much with a good shave. I can imagine, given all factors t(as Joe often mentions) the Feather straight would achieve an incredible shave (although I didn't give mine enough time). There is significant head weight behind a completely open blade. Probably the best of both worlds.From what you say, you prefer a less sharp edge and more control over it, but think of how much skill you've had to learn about honing to be ble to do that. I have to agree with a lot of what you say, from personal experience.

And there are plenty of guys, even barbers who prefer less sharpness. Or is it just that this level of sharpness has been available for such a short time that they haven't had enough time to learn to use and enjoy it?

If you think about it, safety razor shavers probably have a broader range of variables than we do. Injectors have come back, and there are still plenty of GEM and other antique razors around, not to mention the Fusion, and such. And now there are also new blades around. For example, you can get almost any kind of blade with Teflon coating.

[russellnyc]

I have to agree in one way, and disagree in another.

I totally agree that the consistently closest shaves I can have come from a DE, and so shaving with a straight isn't always about the best quality results. But, I feel a MUCH deeper feeling of accomplishment when I have a fairly close and irritation free shave with one of my straight razors. Today, I shaved with my grandfather's adjustable Gilette and a fresh Merkur blade. I can feel no stubble in either direction, no redness, no nicks, no razor burn. But, I kind of wish I had used a straight. Telling though, is that when I need to get the job done and need my face to look perfect (i.e. for a wedding, or other occasion when my face will be photographed), I still always turn to the DE.

Where I disagree is that I think going from cartridge to DE to straight is the best possible progression in terms of learning. Switching to the DE teaches a light touch, control, and how to be aware of blade angle (something cartridge razors don't allow you to control). It offers more risk than a cartridge, but without the full-blown peril of a straight. Once I had gotten comfortable giving myself a pretty good wet shave with a DE, I moved to straight razors. I didn't get very good shaves for a while, but eventually got pretty good at it, enough to do it every single day. Now that I'm good at it, and have learned to know exactly what the blade is doing at all times, what sharpness means, etc. When I return to the DE now and again, I get superb (i.e. absolutely perfect) shaves every time. I don't think I could have learned to shave this well without using a wide range of both dull and sharp straight razors.

[kozulich]

Interesting. I don't own a straight, but I've enjoyed shaving with my Dovo shavette when I've had the time to do so. For me, I just can't see myself giving more than 30 minutes a day on a shave. Hence why I use my DE, but on a rare occasion, I really enjoy the shave with the Shavette. Glad to see that I am not the only one with this perspective.

30 minutes:eek: I shave with a straight most days. In the beginning, when I was scared and had no skill, I spent 30 minutes on a shave, but now if I shave after I shower I can easily finish a straight shave in 10-15 minutes depending on how obsessive I want to get. I bet if you shaved with the Shavette more often, your shaves would speed up.

If it took 30 minutes now, I'd probably give up on straights. I will grant that the DE is faster by a few minutes, and that's what I'll grab if I'm in a hurry.

As to quality, both methods can produce BBS. It takes more skill and more concentration with the straight in my opinion. After all, if your straight isn't sharp enough, you can't blame the guys at merkur. You are responsible for honing and maintaining your blade. Blade angle is also more variable because you can attack your beard with your blade anywhere from 0 degrees to 90 degrees. You can't with a DE. Also, the straight can be harder to maneuver in the tough spots - under the nose and around the adam's apple - because the blade is much longer and the grip less foolproof.

[thestubblefactory]

Try a merkur futur/vision or Slant Bar loaded with a feather DE - and it'll give yer straight razor a run for its money as far as closeness goes. :eek:


I agree with this pretty much. If you have the ability to tweek things in a DE more than just your technique and what blade you use (i.e. adjustable) then it is a bit easier for you to rival the best straight razor shaves. From that I mean a perfectly honed "real" straight razor and you know what your doing when you use it. However, its all a matter of comfort level and how you deal with the biases you accumulate along the way of your shaving experience.

[Joe Lerch]

Where I disagree is that I think going from cartridge to DE to straight is the best possible progression in terms of learning. Switching to the DE teaches a light touch, control, and how to be aware of blade angle (something cartridge razors don't allow you to control). It offers more risk than a cartridge, but without the full-blown peril of a straight.I don't disagree with this.

But I add to what you said. I believe that a trained DE shaver is a worse prospect for a str8 than a cartridge shaver, simply because he is already getting superb shaves and experiences a lot of frustration when he struggles to learn to use a str8 and can't get shaves to match the DE shaves for a long time. I have found that a str8 can exceed a DE shave unless you use Feather blades, then the balance flips over.

A Feather AC is the best of both worlds and offers the best shave. I often think that if I had tried that razor first, before a str8, I might never have used str8s. The Feather AC also has an easier learning curve for a skilled DE shaver.

[Joe Lerch]

I agree with this pretty much. If you have the ability to tweek things in a DE more than just your technique and what blade you use (i.e. adjustable) then it is a bit easier for you to rival the best straight razor shaves. From that I mean a perfectly honed "real" straight razor and you know what your doing when you use it. However, its all a matter of comfort level and how you deal with the biases you accumulate along the way of your shaving experience.I think the honing experts who are candid admit that they can't match the sharpness of a Feather blade.

The only issue is whether sharpness is your thing or you find it too unforgiving. If sharpness is your thing, A str8 shave will never beat the shave you get with a Feather blade.

[Joe Lerch]

As to quality, both methods can produce BBS. That should not be the standard. I maintain that a skilled shaver can get BBS with any decnt razor. The real test is how long it takes to re-stubble, and that where you see real differences. I have found that a str8 will generally beat DEs. But any razor with a Feather blade can beat a str8, simply because a str8 can't be made that sharp.


It takes more skill and more concentration with the straight in my opinion. .... Blade angle is also more variable because you can attack your beard with your blade anywhere from 0 degrees to 90 degrees. You can't with a DE.[/The level of skill depends on where you start. For a guy starting with electrics, he will get a better shave sooner with a DE, but he is likely to reach a comfortable, trouble free level first with a str8 (and then suffer until the quality of the shave comes up to snuff). Str8 shavers who try DEs often compalin about cutting themselves. That's because a DE requires more subtle control.

I have to diasagree about the angle. You can't cut with either razor at zero or 90 degrees. When you learn to control an adjustable DE you can get just as great an angle variation. A fixed DE may be limited that way.

[kozulich]

I have to diasagree about the angle. You can't cut with either razor at zero or 90 degrees.

:confused1 OK, I'll give you that 0 degrees is impossible, with a straight, the minimum is about 7 degrees, but it would certainly cut at that angle. I can pretty much guarantee that if I put my straight on my face at 90 degrees and applied a little pressure, it would cut at that angle also. No DE that I know of has that great a range of cutting angles, because for most of that range, the head design would prohibit the blade from actually touching your face.

[Joe Lerch]

:confused1 OK, I'll give you that 0 degrees is impossible, with a straight, the minimum is about 7 degrees, but it would certainly cut at that angle. I can pretty much guarantee that if I put my straight on my face at 90 degrees and applied a little pressure, it would cut at that angle also. No DE that I know of has that great a range of cutting angles, because for most of that range, the head design would prohibit the blade from actually touching your face.I don't know any str8 that will cut at less than 15-20 degrees, unless you press the side of the blade against the skin. You can do that with a DE, too, and an injector or GEM will get close to zero.

The only thing you'll cut if you apply pressure with 90 degrees is your skin. I do use close to it under the nose, but that's a movement that rotates the blade away from the skin as you advance it.

If you open a DE a lot (a Merkur, not a Gollette) you can even get the bar out of the picture and use it like a str8. A lot of newbies use a DE with a large angle of 80 degress or more and scrape their faces.

Angle control on a DE is not common, but I use it, and I think I know a few other veterans who might.

Because of the safety bar, it's actually safer to use large angles on a DE than a str8. You can do a lot of damage with a str8 if you're not extremely careful.

[moses]

All I know is that I think the first time I try a straight, I'll probably be lying that thing flat against my face and, based on Joe's observation, therefore probably cutting nothing.... I am not very concerned about injuring myself as a rule, but the thought of using a blade that sharp at near 90 degrees under my nose does give visions of permanent scars. (I'm really not worried about any of this if it doesn't leave a scar. On my face that is. Scars elsewhere not a problem).

[Joe Lerch]

All I know is that I think the first time I try a straight, I'll probably be lying that thing flat against my face and, based on Joe's observation, therefore probably cutting nothing.... I am not very concerned about injuring myself as a rule, but the thought of using a blade that sharp at near 90 degrees under my nose does give visions of permanent scars. (I'm really not worried about any of this if it doesn't leave a scar. On my face that is. Scars elsewhere not a problem).Great idea, and start the cut by raising the spine until it starts to cut. For most razors it will be just a little less than 20 degrees, and it won't be good until you're over 20 degrees.

If you think about it, you could lay a razor flat and push it into the whiskers. Since it has a bevel, the edge will be above the side of the blade, and you'll never get closer than that distance, perfect for your first reducing pass, assuming it will cut.

[russellnyc]

All I know is that I think the first time I try a straight, I'll probably be lying that thing flat against my face and, based on Joe's observation, therefore probably cutting nothing.... I am not very concerned about injuring myself as a rule, but the thought of using a blade that sharp at near 90 degrees under my nose does give visions of permanent scars. (I'm really not worried about any of this if it doesn't leave a scar. On my face that is. Scars elsewhere not a problem).

Actually, leaving the blade flat is okay if your face is very flat, but if there are any bumps or contours on your face (as I imagine there are) be very careful not to carve them off. I started getting comfortable straight razor shaves only once I learned to shave with the blade at a 30 degree angle.

[crackstar]

I find that a straight gives me a closer shave than a DE, unless I do an extra pass with a DE. Then it's hard to say, at least from my standpoint.

Jeff

[Tinzien]

Would someone be kind enough to post a link to Dr. Moss's straight razor guide? I was searching around, and it could just be I'm missing it out in the open, but could not find it. I'm trying to get a clear picture of how to hold my new straight right-handed and get comfortable with that before I even begin a practice shave.

Thank you!

[Joe Lerch]

Actually, leaving the blade flat is okay if your face is very flat, but if there are any bumps or contours on your face (as I imagine there are) be very careful not to carve them off. I started getting comfortable straight razor shaves only once I learned to shave with the blade at a 30 degree angle.Actually, you can't leave the blade flat if you want to shave, and 30 degrees is only theoretical. It's to your advantage to use a smaller angle, at least for heavy shaving. Later when you're jus trying to clean up, a larger angle will work. You can get angle close to 20 degrees for most of your shaving. Try holding the spine 1.5 to 2 spine widths above the skin.

[Joe Lerch]

I find that a straight gives me a closer shave than a DE, unless I do an extra pass with a DE. Then it's hard to say, at least from my standpoint.

JeffUltimately it depends on your skill with each razor and the blades you use.

[pokkuhlag]

Would someone be kind enough to post a link to Dr. Moss's straight razor guide? I was searching around, and it could just be I'm missing it out in the open, but could not find it. I'm trying to get a clear picture of how to hold my new straight right-handed and get comfortable with that before I even begin a practice shave.

Thank you!

http://homepage.mac.com/drmoss/FileSharing26.html

[Tinzien]

Thanks! :)

[gundog]

The Vision with a feather gives me a better shave than I get with the straight.

[Joe Lerch]

The Vision with a feather gives me a better shave than I get with the straight.Me too. Except for a Feather str8.