Shapton 16K & 30K - Initial thoughts...

[joel]

http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9534

First, let me say - these glass stones are markedly superior to the 2 professional shaptons... I USED to own. The first 30K shapton (purple professional) I owned was nearly 2X the cost of the 30K shapton glass stone and didn't give me the greatest results.

Back onto these Shaptons - first and foremost these are NOT beginners hones. I don't mean that they are particularly difficult to use, but you can't just "jump to the 16K, then the 30K." What I mean is - you first have to put a REALLY sharp edge on the razor, which for most is no easy task. Before I take a razor to the 16K, I've got to run it through a Norton 4/8K, a Esher and a Chinese 12K in order to get the BEST results. Once I jump from the 12K chinese, onto the 16K Shapton (which cuts VERY quickly) about 10 passes on the 16K and you've got a wickedly sharp edge. If you're REALLY a sadist, you then move to the 30K... a mere 10 passes on the 30K, and you have a dangerously, I mean DANGEROUSLY sharp edge on your razor. You move the razor over hair on your arm, and you cannot hear, nor feel them just slip away.

I'll keep you guys updated... but my initial reaction is - this 30K might be a bit too much... sure for a 5/8th's razor, it'd be managable... but with a heavy razor over 7/8 - you could REALLY cause some serious weepers. Think of a much heavier, less forgiving feather.

I'll keep you updated. :biggrin:

[karkarta]

Ditto - the 30K is overkill for razors; I have one and have tried it extensively, but the edges are too sharp and unforgiving.

[AFDavis11]

Ditto - the 30K is overkill for razors; I have one and have tried it extensively, but the edges are too sharp and unforgiving.

Dang! Whats Shapton selling at? If I had only bought some stock yesterday.

[FloppyShoes]

...You move the razor over hair on your arm, and you cannot hear, nor feel them just slip away...

Call me strange, but I like a little tug. I mean a little, nothing uncomfortable. If I slip I want the edge to stop before it lops my ear/nose/lip/chin clean off.

[moses]

If I slip I want the edge to stop before it lops my ear/nose/lip/chin clean off.

...you gotta ask yourself just one question....'Do I feel lucky?'....Well do ya PUNK?!

[ucliker]

Im excited to here about these stones. Not the 30k because thats just crazy but the 16k Glass stone.

[sebell]

Can you lap these stones with something like a
D8C? They seem to be pretty well priced, but
the diamond/glass lapping stone that Shapton
sells is $$$.

- Scott

[heavydutysg135]

I am interested in learning a few things in particular about these hones:

1. How usable is the 30K edge for shaving? I know that the edge that it produces will be VERY sharp, but I have one razor that I would describe as "too sharp" and if I don't adjust my technique and pressure (which is not easy to do when you are used to shaving one way) I get nicks and irritation along with my very close shave. How does the 16K compare to the 30K in terms of shaving usability?

2. How long does the edge last from both of these stones? I know that this is fairly time consuming to test this; however, it is an important data point. It seems like the thinner the scratch pattern on the edge (sharper razor), the less strudy it would be, and the more it would need to be touched up.

3. I have heard that these stones are very different to use than other stones because of their suction. I believe that MParker said that honing on Shaptons were almost like honing on honey, and he did not get great results from using naturals like coticules and eschers because he was used to honing on the Shaptons. Do you think that this is a significant issue, or is it fairly easy to transition to these stones when your technique is well developed from stones with less suction?

[joel]

I am interested in learning a few things in particular about these hones:

1. How usable is the 30K edge for shaving? I know that the edge that it produces will be VERY sharp, but I have one razor that I would describe as "too sharp" and if I don't adjust my technique and pressure (which is not easy to do when you are used to shaving one way) I get nicks and irritation along with my very close shave. How does the 16K compare to the 30K in terms of shaving usability?

2. How long does the edge last from both of these stones? I know that this is fairly time consuming to test this; however, it is an important data point. It seems like the thinner the scratch pattern on the edge (sharper razor), the less strudy it would be, and the more it would need to be touched up.

3. I have heard that these stones are very different to use than other stones because of their suction. I believe that MParker said that honing on Shaptons were almost like honing on honey, and he did not get great results from using naturals like coticules and eschers because he was used to honing on the Shaptons. Do you think that this is a significant issue, or is it fairly easy to transition to these stones when your technique is well developed from stones with less suction?

1.) The 30K edge for me so far doesn't seem to be that wonderful for shaving. If you treat it like a feather, and let the blade "hover" it doesn't shave close enough, and if you add pressure, it leaves your face red, irritated and feeling miserable. The 30K edge for me doesn't seem any better than just using diamond pastes, and so far it's a big "pass" for me. It gets a razor exceptionally sharp - but it shaves medeocre. I much prefer the edge left by the 16K, then touched up by Chrome Oxide.

2.) How long the edge lasts? I don't mean to sound like a jerk - but who cares? It takes about 30 seconds to splash water on the hone and run the razor down it 3-4 times for a touch up. I haven't really tested the edge longevity of them, but again - due to these hones being so quick/easy to use, I wouldn't be concerned.

3.) These stones (IMHO) are very easy/simple to use. Like any stone, it's a little different - but nothing significant or noteworthy.

[joel]

Can you lap these stones with something like a
D8C? They seem to be pretty well priced, but
the diamond/glass lapping stone that Shapton
sells is $$$.

- Scott

I'd probably use a D8F or D8EF

[Thebigspendur]

I'd probably use a D8F or D8EF

My understanding is these are glass stones with a thin abrasive coating on them which is why they are cheaper. If you lap them won't you remove the abrasive coating? Since they are glass to begin with they should already be perfectly flat anyway.

[Bruce]

-spendur,

The abrasive layer on the Glasstone is about 3/16"+ in thickness with the glass slightly thinner. Overall the stones are about 3/8"+ thick. For about $280 one can get the Shapton diamond lapping plate that is intended to be used with these hones, so I don't think the abrasive layer is too thin to preclude lapping.

[Isaac]

you would think that someting like this should be pre lapped.

WHen you lap this, do you do the same thing with the pencil grid. Seems a bit odd on glass, but..if thats what needs to be done....so be it

[edk442]

the glass is only a substrate (like japanese stones use a wooden base) so you lap them as you normally would

[joel]

My understanding is these are glass stones with a thin abrasive coating on them which is why they are cheaper. If you lap them won't you remove the abrasive coating? Since they are glass to begin with they should already be perfectly flat anyway.

You always see pics of one side... the glass side, but if you turn them over - they are a plain white ceramic stone. Basically its a stone mounted to plate glass. There is actually quite a bit of stone on there, and they are MUCH harder than the Shapton Pro series - so allegidly they are supposed to last as long/longer. I've had the 30K in the pro series, which was considerably more expensive, but personally I like the glass stones more.

FWIW, they came perfectly flat, and I have used them quite a bit, without any sign of wear.

[ouch]

The reason for the 1/4" tempered glasss backer plate is simple- the stones are so thin they would crack without them.

As already mentioned, they are significantly harder than the pro series. I have two of those, and wonder what I'm going to do when they get as thin as the GlassStones.

[GsSixgun]

I just started using my 16000 Shapton GlasStone, and am in total agreement with the fact that if you don't have a shaving sharp edge already these are not going to produce one. I have been going straight from the 8000 Norton to the 16000 Shapton and this is working out just fine(so far), you can see the difference through a 40x loupe, and can feel the difference in the shave. I have actually never tried shaving straight from a stone and probably never will, so mine go through a pasted strop, then to leather, and finally to my face :smile:
Now keep in mind I have only used this stone on 2 razors(DD Goldedge & GEM razor) so far, so my opinions are not based in a large amount honing on different razors I'm sure YMMV
I am forcing myself not to use the stone on all my razors until they need a full re-bevel starting at the 4000 grit level, this seems to be the worst pressure I've ever put on myself :biggrin1:

[joel]

I just started using my 16000 Shapton GlasStone, and am in total agreement with the fact that if you don't have a shaving sharp edge already these are not going to produce one. I have been going straight from the 8000 Norton to the 16000 Shapton and this is working out just fine(so far), you can see the difference through a 40x loupe, and can feel the difference in the shave. I have actually never tried shaving straight from a stone and probably never will, so mine go through a pasted strop, then to leather, and finally to my face :smile:
Now keep in mind I have only used this stone on 2 razors(DD Goldedge & GEM razor) so far, so my opinions are not based in a large amount honing on different razors I'm sure YMMV
I am forcing myself not to use the stone on all my razors until they need a full re-bevel starting at the 4000 grit level, this seems to be the worst pressure I've ever put on myself :biggrin1:

If you're going from the norton 8K side to the shapton 16K, you aren't going to get the greatest results. When I added hones in between, it radically improved my results. You shouldn't need more than 10 or so strokes on the 16K shapton, as they cut VERY quickly. If you're using more, then the edge isn't sharp enough when it makes its way to the 16K.

Hope this helps...

[GsSixgun]

If you're going from the norton 8K side to the shapton 16K, you aren't going to get the greatest results. When I added hones in between, it radically improved my results. You shouldn't need more than 10 or so strokes on the 16K shapton, as they cut VERY quickly. If you're using more, then the edge isn't sharp enough when it makes its way to the 16K.

Hope this helps...
See I was thinking about a 12000 also just to keep it real mathematical :biggrin: 4000-8000-12000-16000 so yer thinking I should add that extra step in there??? also if I were going to add the 12000 would you recomend the Kitayama or another Shapton
?????
I'll try one more razor and see how it goes if I'm lapping to many times on the 16000 I'll pick up a 12000 and add it.... It is getting down to almost crazy as we try more and more for that perfect edge hehehe
I wonder what our fathers and grandfathers would think of us :rolleyes:
Oh well we enjoy our shaving time I guess thats what really counts

[ouch]

See I was thinking about a 12000 also just to keep it real mathematical 4000-8000-12000-16000 so yer thinking I should add that extra step in there??? also if I were going to add the 12000 would you recomend the Kitayama or another Shapton
?????


Actually, the correct mathematical progression is 4000-8000-16000. Each step represents a halving of grit size. For knives, a 2-4X jump in grit number is not a problem (you can get great results with just a 1K and a 5-6K), but I think razors need a bit of a slower progression.

If you have an 8K, I wouldn't think you'd need the 8-12K Kitayama (it contains crushed natural stone, so it's hard to assign it a strict number). Shapton doesn't make a 12K in the GlassStone series, only in the M15 and pro series, which have a completely different feel. If you insist on something between the 8K and the 16K, I'd suggest the magnificent Naniwa 10K, one of the best polish stones on the market. It feels more like a strop.

[moses]

Seems like the super cheap Chinese 12k or the relatively cheap Spyderco extra fine would also be decent in between options....

-Mo

[ouch]

One of the things I like about Nortons, as well as Shapton, Naniwa, and the DMT plates is the sizeable surface area. I like anything roughly 8"x3". I know that's a bit big for razors, but..........

[joel]

See I was thinking about a 12000 also just to keep it real mathematical :biggrin: 4000-8000-12000-16000 so yer thinking I should add that extra step in there??? also if I were going to add the 12000 would you recomend the Kitayama or another Shapton
?????
I'll try one more razor and see how it goes if I'm lapping to many times on the 16000 I'll pick up a 12000 and add it.... It is getting down to almost crazy as we try more and more for that perfect edge hehehe
I wonder what our fathers and grandfathers would think of us :rolleyes:
Oh well we enjoy our shaving time I guess thats what really counts

Depends on how much time you want to spend. See - the issue is - a Norton 8K is NOT the same as a Shapton 8K, as in Shapton grits, the Norton 8K is about a shapton 5K, so going from essentially a "shapton" 5K on your Norton 8K, to a TRUE shapton 16K, just ain't gonna cut the mustard.

What I do, is go to an escher because it cuts quicky, then to the Chinese 12K as I like the edge the 12K leaves more, then go to the Shapton 16K.

The fastest/easiest "in-between" hone for you, would probably be the Spyderco Ultra Fine (however, you'd probably need to lap it, as most of the hones they have been shipping out lately aren't flat) as it'll leave about as nice an edge as the Chinese 12K, yet cuts much faster, so it'll save you some time.

If you think you are getting good results with that 16K Shapton now though, you'll be shocked when you use a hone or two inbetween, as the 8K Norton just doesn't cut the mustard.

Hope this helps!

[heavydutysg135]

Depends on how much time you want to spend. See - the issue is - a Norton 8K is NOT the same as a Shapton 8K, as in Shapton grits, the Norton 8K is about a shapton 5K, so going from essentially a "shapton" 5K on your Norton 8K, to a TRUE shapton 16K, just ain't gonna cut the mustard.



I am just curious whether you own or have used any of the other stones in the Shapton Glass Stone series such as the 1K, 4K, or 8K and if so what are your opinions on their performance. Does you think that the 16K works as well comming off the 8K Shapton stone as your Chinese 12K?

[joel]

I am just curious whether you own or have used any of the other stones in the Shapton Glass Stone series such as the 1K, 4K, or 8K and if so what are your opinions on their performance. Does you think that the 16K works as well comming off the 8K Shapton stone as your Chinese 12K?

Sorry, haven't used the other shaptons. I doubt the shapton 8K would work as well as the Chinese 12K though.

[Bruce]

Why, if the Shaptons are such aggresive stones, is it necessary to get an edge sharp before bringing it to the Shapton stone?

[moses]

Why, if the Shaptons are such aggresive stones, is it necessary to get an edge sharp before bringing it to the Shapton stone?

I was wondering that too. It seems like if ten passes on the Shapton after a chinese 12k or the like does it, and the Shapton is pretty fast cutting, you should be able to get the same result by just doing a lot more passes off of a courser stone.

But then, it seems honing is tricky, and not always as simple as one thinks it "should" be.

-Mo

[ouch]

But then, it seems honing is tricky, and not always as simple as one thinks it "should" be.

-Mo

Truer words were never spoken.

[moses]

Truer words were never spoken.

Just call me Mr. Truth....

-Mo

[joel]

Why, if the Shaptons are such aggresive stones, is it necessary to get an edge sharp before bringing it to the Shapton stone?

Bruce,
Different grits cut in different manners. If you go with an 8K stone, then jump to a 30K stone, you're still going to have scratches from the 8K stone. Honing is something that must be done in steps to have the most stable, and smoothest edge. Also, Shaptons are aggressive/fast cutting for their grit - which has a much different meaning. Typically, the smaller the grit, the slower cutting - so while for instance a 30K cuts very quickly, it cuts quickly for it's grit - it would take ages to establish an edge with the 30K.

Also, different stones leave the edge in different conditions. Going from a low grit stone, then to a very high grit stone will leave a rocky/unpolished edge. Moving up in grit gradually, while "perfecting" the polish on each grit ever so finer is the way to get maximum results.

Basically, you CAN go from a Norton 8K to a Shapton 16K, but he's using like 40+ strokes to get a decent edge, and while it is better than what he has acheived with other stones, and is a marked improvement - even then, he is not getting the maximum result from the 16K stone, which to a certain extent defeats the purpose. In fact, I can get a better, and more comfortable shaving edge going from a Norton 8K, to a Spyderco Ultra Fine, Chinese 12K, or Escher - rather than going from the Norton 8, right to the shapton 16 - so if I could only have "one" finishing stone off of the Norton 8K, it certainly wouldn't be the Shapton 16K. Now, after I've used one on the aformentioned hones on a razor (after it has been on the 8K norton) and move to a Shapton 16K, I can develop a much finer edge on the razor than I could merely using one of the aformentioned hones.

Hope this helps...

[mezzeta]

The way I look at it, it's kind of like sanding a piece of wood with 40grit sandpaper and then sanding with 400 grit. It's just too big a jump.