What Gillette

[Eric62]

Can someone tell what type of Gillette razor this please its got a numbers around the base of the handle which are 1,3,1,6,6,2,5 why is it odd numbers Cant work out how you adjust it.The base of the razor unscrews and the head goes up and down but cant figure how you lock it also why all the odd weird numbers & not in sequence. Here are some photos

[ironfist]

Looks like a Gillette single ring to me =]

[Eric62]

Do you how do adjust it cause when i do it it unscrews OK but that's it ! the blade go back to the minimum gap on the blade head

[swamps]

The reason you can't adjust it is because its not an adjustable like a slim,fatboy or super adjustable all you can do to increase the blade gap is slacken it half a turn once tight or take a used blade and cut off the cutting edge and use it as a shim...

[AceByTerror]

Looks like a Big Fellow to me in the nice wood case, but the handle looks shorter than this Big Fellow that recently closed on eBay:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/300711122305 (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/300711122305?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1413)

[alex2363]

Big fellow in Richwood case....this belongs in there http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad50/alex2363/PICT0003-7.jpg

[alex2363]

this is what the set looks like w the big Fellow in it

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad50/alex2363/192020Big20Fellow.jpg

[MacDaddy]

It's a standard Single Ring, not a Big Fellow. The stamping on this one is similar to another one I have from England (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/220961-Unusual-British-Single-Ring), where the serial number is on the smooth band above the knob. (See below.) If you open it up you may find that the British patent number is inscribed around the top of the inner barrel, and you may also have the full diamond logo and motto on the bottom of the cap and/or the top of the guard plate.

Have a close look at that first "1" in the serial number and I'll bet that you'll find it's more likely a letter that's either been worn away or wasn't struck completely in the first place.

The case is a mismatch for that razor, but is a nice piece on its own. In the British market there were a couple of different razors that could have come in that case, but as far as we know all the cases themselves were made in the USA and shipped to the factory in England to be used with razors made there. Here's a recent thread on the subject. (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/290697-British-Richwood)

http://www.g9g.org/images/razors/brit_single_ring1.jpg

[dcobranchi]

The numbers are the serial number of the razor. But the code Gillette used reset back to 0000001 after 999999, incrementing the prefix letter code. Could your first "1" actually be an "I"? That would put it in 1918 according to the ShaveWiki. http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/US_Gillette_Dating_Information

Edit: Porter is way more informed about these than I. I didn't even think about the British razors.

[amishmotorboat]

The reason you can't adjust it is because its not an adjustable like a slim,fatboy or super adjustable all you can do to increase the blade gap is slacken it half a turn once tight or take a used blade and cut off the cutting edge and use it as a shim...

I'm splitting hairs here, but those old single rings were billed as adjustable. For a closer shave, you back off the tension on the knob.
edit: oh, I guess I see you are saying pretty much the same thing. I focused on the first few words... sorry.

[alex2363]

It's a standard Single Ring, not a Big Fellow. The stamping on this one is similar to another one I have from England (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/220961-Unusual-British-Single-Ring), where the serial number is on the smooth band above the knob. (See below.) If you open it up you may find that the British patent number is inscribed around the top of the inner barrel, and you may also have the full diamond logo and motto on the bottom of the cap and/or the top of the guard plate.

Have a close look at that first "1" in the serial number and I'll bet that you'll find it's more likely a letter that's either been worn away or wasn't struck completely in the first place.

The case is a mismatch for that razor, but is a nice piece on its own. In the British market there were a couple of different razors that could have come in that case, but as far as we know all the cases themselves were made in the USA and shipped to the factory in England to be used with razors made there. Here's a recent thread on the subject. (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/290697-British-Richwood)

Very good Porter, I saw this post on my I-phone, not good size pics, now i see the difference, thanks for clarifying and correcting the razor ID. ( good link too, I remember posting on it last year)) I love learning stuff every day here!!!

[kingfisher]

As has been pointed out, the razor and the case are definitely a mismatch.

It's a beautiful razor. If you decide you don't want it let me know. :wink2:

[swamps]

I thought i recognised the razor i was a bidder on it 1st time round but forgot to increase my bid's and missed it then the seller relisted it not sure why it but the ironic thing was they had the razor for the richwood in a single ring case up for sale as well i told them that the razors were in the wrong case's but they never changed them over by the looks of it...

[ironfist]

Great razors :D

[Sledgehammer39]

Sweet Looking Razor!

[Eric62]

The serial no reading left to right the is i think Is E266131

[Eric62]

Also found this stamped around the inner tube inside the handle handle BR P.A.T. No 2876302 have looked on Mr Razor site by the serial no it could be dated from 1906 but the E number round the handle puts it 1916 ??? on the badger Gillette so what is the right one help please if pos

[mblakele]

It sounds like you have been looking at USA serial numbers? But the English Gillette factory did not use the same serial numbers as the USA factory. Unfortunately I am not aware of any reliable dating by serial number for the English Gillettes. Sometimes razors are found with original blades or the original case, which can help.

As you mention, at http://mr-razor.com/Rasierer/Old%20Type/Old%20Type.htm Achim has two Made in England standard sets, both dated 1906-08. He probably used the case design and old advertising to date these sets. As it happens, one has a 'B' serial number and the other 'H'. So you could place your 'E' in between, and also date it to 1906-08. But I do not think you can be more specific about this piece.

[Eric62]

Thanks for that

[MacDaddy]

I still had this auction listing and the other one from the same seller, where he almost certainly mixed the razors and cases from. These are the photos of the case that your razor almost certainly belongs with, the razor that's in the case is the type that would go in the Richwood case that you have:

245994

245995

Assuming that is its original case, the diamond logo would allow you to pin it to later than 1908, at least. But the fact that it's a stitched-in label instead of an actual imprint on the fabric of the headliner would probably imply that it's still fairly early. Also, the fact that it lists King Gillette as "President" on the printing that's on the bottom of the case gives you an additional "not earlier than" point, since when KCG first joined up with the corporation his title was "Vice President." Later he was given the title of "President" but John Joyce maintained most of the actual control of the company. I'd have to do some digging to try to put a date to that change, but I'm pretty sure that the diamond logo was later than that, anyway.

[ChiefBroom]

<snippage>

Assuming that is its original case, the diamond logo would allow you to pin it to later than 1908, at least. But the fact that it's a stitched-in label instead of an actual imprint on the fabric of the headliner would probably imply that it's still fairly early. Also, the fact that it lists King Gillette as "President" on the printing that's on the bottom of the case gives you an additional "not earlier than" point, since when KCG first joined up with the corporation his title was "Vice President." Later he was given the title of "President" but John Joyce maintained most of the actual control of the company. I'd have to do some digging to try to put a date to that change, but I'm pretty sure that the diamond logo was later than that, anyway.

I love this stuff!

[mblakele]

Assuming that is its original case, the diamond logo would allow you to pin it to later than 1908, at least. But the fact that it's a stitched-in label instead of an actual imprint on the fabric of the headliner would probably imply that it's still fairly early. Also, the fact that it lists King Gillette as "President" on the printing that's on the bottom of the case gives you an additional "not earlier than" point, since when KCG first joined up with the corporation his title was "Vice President." Later he was given the title of "President" but John Joyce maintained most of the actual control of the company. I'd have to do some digging to try to put a date to that change, but I'm pretty sure that the diamond logo was later than that, anyway.

That makes sense, although as you say it all hinges on the provenance of the case. I think late 1908 is still a possibility for that diamond-logo case, since http://mr-razor.com/Werbung/C%201908%20Gillette%20Blades.jpg shows a diamond logo on a blade with the date 1 Sept 1908 - and as you say it is an early example. Meanwhile Achim's 'H' serial number has a script-logo case, and I would expect an 'E' number to come before 'H'. So my own hunch is a mismatch, but there is plenty of room for different views.

It might help if we could narrow down the dates for the presidency. McKibben wrote that King Camp Gillette was company president at the beginning, from 1901 to 1903. Of course that is too early for this razor or case. He resigned, but remained a director, when Joyce declined to pay him a salary. Joyce was paying the company bills at the time, in a role much like an angel investor, so he called the shots. McKibben also writes that Joyce was responsible for the $5 price of the early sets, and that the rest of the board wanted $3 sets. Anyway, my reading is that KCG took up the VP role - with salary - late in 1904. The London sales office opened in 1905, but they would have been selling USA-made razors and blades at first. McKibben is not clear on when KCG became president again, but I found a 1907 Directory of directors in the city of Boston and vicinity (http://books.google.com/books?id=UoIpAAAAYAAJ) that shows Joyce as president. The 1908 edition (http://books.google.com/books?id=d-wCAAAAYAAJ) lists KCG. Given publication times, this implies that the title changed hands sometime in 1907 or early in 1908.

[MacDaddy]

That makes sense, although as you say it all hinges on the provenance of the case. I think late 1908 is still a possibility for that diamond-logo case, since http://mr-razor.com/Werbung/C%201908%20Gillette%20Blades.jpg shows a diamond logo on a blade with the date 1 Sept 1908 - and as you say it is an early example. Meanwhile Achim's 'H' serial number has a script-logo case, and I would expect an 'E' number to come before 'H'. So my own hunch is a mismatch, but there is plenty of room for different views.

Yes, the blade depicted in that ad is one of the oldest uses of the diamond that I've seen. The USPTO lists the trademark as having been filed on May 27, 1908 and issued on October 13, 1908, with the "first use in commerce" listed as May 16, 1908. So it's possible they started using it in late 1908, especially with the sewn-in labels which could very easily be distributed and affixed.

I really have no idea what's going on with that "H" series British Single Ring of Achim's. I seriously doubt that there were more than 5,000,000 razors made between those two script-logo examples that he's got. Plus when you consider that it's also paired with the older cardboard "Dull/Sharp" blade boxes, the "H" series razor would have actually been earlier than the "B" series one with the metal blade cases (which have the diamond logo on them), assuming that both sets are correct and original.



It might help if we could narrow down the dates for the presidency. McKibben wrote that King Camp Gillette was company president at the beginning, from 1901 to 1903. Of course that is too early for this razor or case. He resigned, but remained a director, when Joyce declined to pay him a salary. Joyce was paying the company bills at the time, in a role much like an angel investor, so he called the shots. McKibben also writes that Joyce was responsible for the $5 price of the early sets, and that the rest of the board wanted $3 sets. Anyway, my reading is that KCG took up the VP role - with salary - late in 1904. The London sales office opened in 1905, but they would have been selling USA-made razors and blades at first. McKibben is not clear on when KCG became president again, but I found a 1907 Directory of directors in the city of Boston and vicinity (http://books.google.com/books?id=UoIpAAAAYAAJ) that shows Joyce as president. The 1908 edition (http://books.google.com/books?id=d-wCAAAAYAAJ) lists KCG. Given publication times, this implies that the title changed hands sometime in 1907 or early in 1908.

That's a great find there in the Directory of Directors. I hadn't turned up those publications before. Also, you're right, I misspoke before -- I should have said, "when KCG first entered the company's payroll." I don't know if there are any products or ads from that very early period (1901-1903/04) that refer to him as the President, but I do have at least a couple of shippers from that 1904-1907/08 range that give his title as "Vice President." In any case, it sounds like his switch back to President would probably have predated the change to the diamond logo, even if only slightly.

Although it doesn't add much concrete in the way of facts to help us out here, I just love Fred Dorr's account of his designing the diamond logo that ran in the April 1918 issue of The Gillette Blade (http://books.google.com/books?id=ECuyAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PA31#v=onepage&q&f=false).

[mblakele]

That is a good story. Thanks for linking it, and your reasoning about the 'H' makes sense to me. It is hard to see how the British serials would be so much higher than the contemporary USA ones, unless they started from a different base or there was something else going on.

I also went spelunking in the Blade, and came up with this from KCG:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ECuyAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA12&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3hrCGHXf9v7r7Jv1bKay3m0aWZ7w&ci=518%2C178%2C412%2C509&edge=0 (http://books.google.com/books?id=ECuyAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA12&ci=518%2C178%2C412%2C509&source=bookclip)
Up to 1905 a small number of razors and blades had been shipped to England. The demand at that time increased to an extent that seemed to warrant opening an office in that country. Accordingly a representative of the Company was sent to London and a branch was established there in February 1905. In 1907 it was decided to build a factory in England. Land for this purpose was purchased at Leicester and the factory was completed and in operation early in the year 1909. The English Company was formed in September 1908 under the name Gillette Safety Razor Ltd., their London office being located at 17 Holborn Viaduct.

I had assumed that a razor with a British patent number would be made in the UK, but this suggests that there were no Made in England razors before early 1909, and earlier ones were made in Boston (or perhaps Montreal, from 1906 on?) and shipped to London. Achim's early examples do not show "Made in England" anywhere that I can see. But his early USA single rings have no such marking either, so I suppose they did not start that until later on. But if the pre-1909 British sets were made in the USA, then it becomes even harder to see how a script-logo case would contain anything past an 'A' or 'B' serial number.

This also suggests that after September 1908 the case ought to read "Gillette Safety Razor, Ltd" rather than "Gillette Safety Razor Co". But I might be putting too much faith in KCG's memory or in the consistency of the factory output. After all, a page or two later we have this drawing with "Company" instead of "Ltd", right on the factory building.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ECuyAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA13&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U1rK9kBm_-DXXnO5tHeqBHIymc_7w&ci=74%2C152%2C836%2C585&edge=0 (http://books.google.com/books?id=ECuyAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA13&ci=74%2C152%2C836%2C585&source=bookclip)

Later in the Blade there is a piece by A.A. Bittues, Managing Director Gillette Safety Razor Co of Canada. He writes (http://books.google.com/books?id=ECuyAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA21&ci=136%2C184%2C699%2C130&source=bookclip) that he went to Paris in 1905 to establish a plant there, and to Montreal in the second half of 1906 (and http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/288794-Gillette-old-type-date-question?p=4069228#post4069228 says it was in operation by August 1906).

http://books.google.com/books?id=ECuyAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA21&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U1AzgP2RHhKs55tdV7XVVy95rAhqg&ci=492%2C1074%2C428%2C308&edge=0 (http://books.google.com/books?id=ECuyAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA21&ci=492%2C1074%2C428%2C308&source=bookclip)

The rest of the piece is funny too, but later in the same article he mentions a couple of interesting facts. One is that the first Montreal plant was burned out, but quickly replaced (this makes the 1912 factory the third one in Montreal). A bit later he writes that "There are shipments leaving the Montreal factory for England". That was in 1918, well after the Leicster factory was up and running. Buttes writes that Montreal's early production was good but early sales were very slow. So it would make sense to send excess razors to England, even from the beginning.

Maybe we can spin that into a theory? If some of the pre-1909 British sets were made in USA, we could expect them to have no letter, or 'A' or 'B' numbers. If after 1906 the Montreal factory was making more razors than it could sell locally, they might have begun shipping excess production to England. I think the early Paris plant only made blades, but possibly it was turning out excess razors too. We think that the Montreal plant used 'PC' and 'C' prefixes from an early date. Maybe they decided to label some razors destined for England with 'E' for England, and then got confused and used 'G' for Great Britain? And eventually they ran through 'G' and went to 'H'? That early fire in Montreal might have caused some confusion, too.

That is all highly speculative, of course. I suppose Occam's Razor would tell us that fake sets are much more likely.

[MacDaddy]

I totally want to continue this conversation, but we've probably crossed the line into threadjacking here at this point. I'm going to start a separate "Gillette Company History Geek Out (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/294023-Gillette-Company-History-Geek-Out)" thread so we can continue things there.

[anaguma]

Cant work out how you adjust it.The base of the razor unscrews and the head goes up and down but cant figure how you lock it...

From a 1918 Gillette catalogue:

333140

[HerrHepcat]

FYI, a Big Fellow won't fit in a Richwood case.
333191

[HerrHepcat]

Oh my... old thread alert! Well anyway. Kind of sad those two sets got mixed up and separated.