Section 7 - 7, Spyderco Hones

[joel]

Spyderco Hones (Medium, Fine, Extra Fine)

http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9198

http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9137

http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9244

Spyderco hones are very neat/interesting hones that are not talked about too terribly often, however they are inexpensive, hard as can be, incredibly flat, and just about the easiest hone to use – as they can even be used dry! Dry, with water, with lather… all extremely effective. These hones come in 3 different grits, medium (which has a brown color hone, with dark blue honing station), Fine (a white color hone with a light blue honing station) and Extra-Fine (a white color hone with a black honing station). The medium cuts incredibly fast and removes a lot of steel, the fine and ultra fine cut pretty quickly as well. The ultra-fine creates and incredibly fine/delicate edge, and works quickly and easily wet – or dry. Cleaning the hones is a snap – a little powdered cleaner and a green scotch brite pad – and they’ll look good as new. These hones are incredibly hard (being ceramic) and the fine and ultra-fine will show no wear with use – and the medium will show minimal wear with use. These hones are 2” X 8” X .5”

Medium is approx 3-4K
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9288
Fine is approx 8K
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9171
Extra Fine is approx 13-14K
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9161

Pro’s
1.) Reasonably priced, decent sized and work well.
2.) Cut very quickly/easily.
3.) Can be used dry, with water, or with lather.
4.) Minimal maintenance.

Size comparison - Spyderco ultra fine next to a Norton 4K/8K...
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9182

Con’s
1.) Must use an “X” honing pattern
2.) Miserable to lap because they are so hard.
3.) Very heavy.

PROCEED TO THE NEXT SECTION OF THE GUIDE - Section 7 - 8, Kitayama Hone (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?p=347313#post347313)

BACK TO THE TABLE OF CONTENTS (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28547)

[edk442]

would the edge off the ultra fine be comparable to the 8k side of a norton?

[joel]

would the edge off the ultra fine be comparable to the 8k side of a norton?

No. Since the ultra-fine is approx 13-14K - it is vastly superior/finer.

The Spyderco Ultra Fine hone puts a truly incredible edge on razors.

Hope this helps!

[edk442]

ya i saw you had the grits labelled afterwards

[tim8557]

It goes without saying that Spyderco makes some great knives as well. They use a lot of VG-10 steel and put an incredible edge to their blades.

I'm not a big fan of serrated edges, but their serrated versions are wicked.

[Papa Bull]

The spyderco extra fine gave me the finest edge scratch pattern of any hone results I evaluated under 200X magnification. It's a very, very fine hone.

[joel]

The spyderco extra fine gave me the finest edge scratch pattern of any hone results I evaluated under 200X magnification. It's a very, very fine hone.

Robert,
I agree... not to mention, they are ridiculously inexpensive, for a hone that nice.

They only "hone" that I think puts as wicked an edge on my razors is a VERY old, and AMAZINGLY good Belgian, but I'm not going to embarass myself and say how much that thing set me back....

[Amyn]

Robert,
I agree... not to mention, they are ridiculously inexpensive, for a hone that nice.

They only "hone" that I think puts as wicked an edge on my razors is a VERY old, and AMAZINGLY good Belgian, but I'm not going to embarass myself and say how much that thing set me back....

Any idea where to find these hones (no not the belgian :laugh:... not yet atleast)

[Justme-]

Very important correction: they are NOT Lap-able!
These hones are guaranteed flat from Spyderco and are harder than diamond (ruined a good diamond hone trying to lap one!)
Send an untrue hone back to Spyderco (talk to customer service) and they will replace it. I have to send my Fine grit in- didn't notice it was not flat until I tried honing a razor. Carving tools are much less effected by it.

[joel]

Very important correction: they are NOT Lap-able!
These hones are guaranteed flat from Spyderco and are harder than diamond (ruined a good diamond hone trying to lap one!)
Send an untrue hone back to Spyderco (talk to customer service) and they will replace it. I have to send my Fine grit in- didn't notice it was not flat until I tried honing a razor. Carving tools are much less effected by it.

Hmm.... I flattened mine right up with my DMT....

[joel]

Any idea where to find these hones (no not the belgian :laugh:... not yet atleast)

You can get it HERE (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/32345-18910-1294.html) for a mere $40.

[sphughes]

I've been raving about mine for some time now. A great polishing hone that is simple to maintain. The $40 price Joel mentions is spot on to what I paid. I picked mine up thru a knife site. There are a few threads from the past out here that go into some detail.

-Scott

[Limey]

Remember the Spydercos are 2" wide which is fine but some guys will find them to be too narrow. I think a 3" wide like the Nortons is easier to learn on.

[ReGZ_93]

It goes without saying that Spyderco makes some great knives as well. They use a lot of VG-10 steel and put an incredible edge to their blades.

I'm not a big fan of serrated edges, but their serrated versions are wicked.

VG10 is a great steel. It was originally created for Japanese pruning knives. It has a rockwell hardness of 62, with a high chromium content, making more rust resistant than other high performance steels like ATS 34, and 154CM. Those two were created for the aerospace industry for jet turbine impeller blades. ATS34 and 154CM have a higher heat resistance due to the requirements of their original intent. I've notice that ATS34 in particular is extremely hard to sharpen if you don't have a diamond stone handy.

[ouch]

Very important correction: they are NOT Lap-able!
These hones are guaranteed flat from Spyderco and are harder than diamond (ruined a good diamond hone trying to lap one!)
Send an untrue hone back to Spyderco (talk to customer service) and they will replace it. I have to send my Fine grit in- didn't notice it was not flat until I tried honing a razor. Carving tools are much less effected by it.

Must be made from some of that stuff the government recovered in Roswell.


VG10 is a great steel. It was originally created for Japanese pruning knives. It has a rockwell hardness of 62, with a high chromium content, making more rust resistant than other high performance steels like ATS 34, and 154CM. Those two were created for the aerospace industry for jet turbine impeller blades. ATS34 and 154CM have a higher heat resistance due to the requirements of their original intent. I've notice that ATS34 in particular is extremely hard to sharpen if you don't have a diamond stone handy.

VG-10 is a great all around steel. It can be hardened to RC62, but is rarely used that way for knives. It takes a good edge, performs very well, and is pretty tough at around RC58-60. The newfangled powdered steels can be made super hard, and are good for slicing, but VG-10 is top notch for any application that might otherwise chip a very thin edge.

[Justme-]

Just telling you what Spyderco says- and I ruined my 3x8 DMT trying to lap my fine Spyderco. It was an expensive learning experience and with their guarantee, it's not worth trying to lap it.

[Shane]

Has anyone here honed a straight razor using all three grits of Spyderco hones sequentially?

[joel]

Has anyone here honed a straight razor using all three grits of Spyderco hones sequentially?

Yep - works just fine.

[daveesq]

According to the Spyderco website, they're now producing a 3x8 ultrafine stone (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=271). I've sent an email to the customer service people there asking whether they're also going to be making medium and fine grit stones of the same size, but the person who answers such emails is out of the office until Monday. I'll keep you updated on what they end up saying.

[Buzz]

According to the Spyderco website, they're now producing a 3x8 ultrafine stone (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=271). I've sent an email to the customer service people there asking whether they're also going to be making medium and fine grit stones of the same size, but the person who answers such emails is out of the office until Monday. I'll keep you updated on what they end up saying.

That ultrafine stone doesn't seem to be actually available anywhere that I could find.

[joel]

Using the small one really isn't a big deal... it's larger than most belgian hones, and all barber hones.

Paying 2-3X more (the 3X8 is like $125 I think) for a hone that gets very little use (you only FINISH the edge on them) somewhat defeats the purpose.

Personally if I was spending more than $100 on a finishing hone, it wouldn't be a Spyderco :wink:

[edk442]

joel since it seems you have quite a bit of experience with these hones, how would you compare the edge preduced the Ultra Fine, to an edge produced by a coticule? to an edge produced by an escher? (in terms of sharpness and smoothness)

[joel]

joel since it seems you have quite a bit of experience with these hones, how would you compare the edge preduced the Ultra Fine, to an edge produced by a coticule? to an edge produced by an escher? (in terms of sharpness and smoothness)

Oh man o man, I always hate these questions :biggrin:

I know what you're getting at... which one is the best? :biggrin: :biggrin:

When it comes to hones of these grits, and this nature - there is no best. I can't say one is conclusively "better" than the other, and each hone creates a little different edge for different TYPES of razors. For instance, I find to get Thiers Issard Razors to their "highest point" of shaving efficacy, Diamond paste works best. For Wade and Butchers - they seem to really like Eschers. Razors prone to microchipping work best on my incredibly slow cutting Chinese 12K.

There is no one "magic" hone - but on the same token there is really no need for owning/using a bunch of hones as well. Unless you really enjoy experimenting and truly have a passion for hones, and enjoy using them (which is why I own so many) I say keep it simple, and keep it inexpensive.

What type of razors do you have primarily? How often do you hone them up? Are you going to do the final polish on diamond paste regardless?

By and large - I'd say get a finishing hone under $50, as while I'm not going to say conclusively one is better than another, I can/will say there is no hone under $200 or so that is going to perform BETTER than a $30 Chinese 12K, or a $40 Spyderco.

Some like the more expensive hones simply because, well.... they are more expensive/exclusive - and while they do have their merits, and are often more fun to use (they often provide superior feedback, and/or cut faster, etc) if there were a blind "shave test" I just don't think many would really notice a tremendous difference from one top quality finishing hone to another. Hell - I used to own a 30K Shapton that ran a fortune - but it just didn't make a real difference. You can look under microscopes and study the scratch pattern the different hones leave on a edge, but at least for me, it's pointless. I am 100% performance oriented - if a scratch pattern looks smoother on one hone - but doesn't shave as smooth or better, I could care less. When you are getting down to these high a grits, and fellas getting this nitpicky - it really is going to boil down to ones skill/abilities at honing, more so than the hone itself.

I can get a scary, if you're not paying attention will cut the hell outta you edge on a $30 Chinese 12K, just as "scary" as I could with a Shapton 30K.

If I had to recommend one finishing HONE (not counting pastes) I'd recommend the Chinese 12K as it offers the most versatility, as it'll never cut so fast as to microchip, and it'll leave an incredibly smooth edge... and well... the hone is incredibly cheap - which means you'll have more $ to spend on more important things... like razors! :wink:

For what it's worth, finishing hones and all that jazz are a relatively new/popular topic. Just a matter of 3-4 years ago very - and I mean VERY few people were using anything past the 8K side of a Norton...

[tim8557]

That ultrafine stone doesn't seem to be actually available anywhere that I could find.

Try http://www.newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=3603

[joel]

Try http://www.newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=3603

Tim,
I think he's referring to the 3" version. :smile:

[edk442]

kind of an aloof answer but i suppose i'll have to take it :tongue:

on the one hand, I like having variety, and on the other hand, I try to keep a minimalistic collection, and wouldn't it be just absolutely grand if I could work all my razors on 3 stones! wouldn't that make life so simple! (plus i like the size) so these spydercos intrigue me

right now i have the following:

Shapton Pro 1500
Shapton Pro 5000
Shapton Pro 8000
Coticule
Belgian Blue (a mix up with Howard forced me to keep it)
Vintage Escher

most would would agree this is a pretty decent collection, but there's always that "I wonder what I'm missing" aspect. But if I could get the same results for about $100...now THERE'S a thought!!!!

But, I don't know if I could ever part with my coticule and escher, just because they are those "prestige" items...even if the spyderco UF performed just as well, i'd still feel like i was missing something

who am i kidding, i'll probly just buy a set of spydercos one day...maybe a shapton 15k while i'm at it......

[ouch]

right now i have the following:

Shapton Pro 1500
Shapton Pro 5000
Shapton Pro 8000
Coticule
Belgian Blue (a mix up with Howard forced me to keep it)
Vintage Escher

most would would agree this is a pretty decent collection, but there's always that "I wonder what I'm missing" aspect.

That's quite a collection, but it never ends, does it? :lol:

When I had two stones, I thought, "if I only had two or three more, I'd be set." Then when I had six stones, I'd say, "if I only had two or three more, I'd be good to go." Now I have over a dozen, and you guessed it..........

if I only had two or three more.

[edk442]

well really those 6 stones are all i need (and i could do without the belgian blue personally) but in the name of reducing, sometimes you gotta spend money to save money. (find out what works best for you and sell off what doesn't)

my collection was much bigger but i recently sold a kitayma, arashiyama 6000, Shapton M15 1k, 5k, and 12k

i think what I'm really looking for is one top quality, minimal set that does it all (or maybe i'm unconsciously giving myself reasons to have a hone collection.

I don't plan on ever having more than maybe 10 razors in my final rotation so i don't need a large collection (wouldn't that be somethin...to have more stones than razors)

[ouch]

my collection was much bigger but i recently sold a kitayma, arashiyama 6000, Shapton M15 1k, 5k, and 12k

You've been around the block, I see. :thumbup1:
I have/had the M15 2K and 12K, and the kuromaku pro 1500 and 5K.

You may eventually hate me for saying this, but I love the new Shaptons, the GlassStones. Incredibly cool looking, with improved performace.

Amazingly, Shapton isn't even my favorite brand.:lol:



i think what I'm really looking for is one top quality, minimal set that does it all (or maybe i'm unconsciously giving myself reasons to have a hone collection.

I don't plan on ever having more than maybe 10 razors in my final rotation so i don't need a large collection (wouldn't that be somethin...to have more stones than razors)

I hardly do any razor honing at all, just cutlery.

[edk442]

You may eventually hate me for saying this, but I love the new Shaptons, the GlassStones. Incredibly cool looking, with improved performace.

Amazingly, Shapton isn't even my favorite brand.:lol:


You know I have no real desire to get the glasstones, probably because i'm not totally sure what the heck they are. But i have to ask...what is your favorite brand?

[ouch]

You know I have no real desire to get the glasstones, probably because i'm not totally sure what the heck they are. But i have to ask...what is your favorite brand?

As you know, the M15 Shaptons are a 15mm thick stone mounted to a wood base. The pro series is 15mm thick and comes in a plastic case that is good for storage but useless as a base. If the stone wears too thin, it can break.

The GlassStone series attempts to solve this by mounting the stone to a 1/4" tempered glass plate. The stone itself is only 5mm thick, but is much more durable than previous offerings and should last a very long time.

Naniwa makes some of the worst stones you can buy, but they also make two of my favorites, the 3K and the 10K. Those two are top notch.

I agree that as you're never going to use all of your stones in one session, the most logical thing to do is to settle on a relatively simple routine that will cover all bases.

[edk442]

As you know, the M15 Shaptons are a 15mm thick stone mounted to a wood base. The pro series is 15mm thick and comes in a plastic case that is good for storage but useless as a base. If the stone wears too thin, it can break.

The GlassStone series attempts to solve this by mounting the stone to a 1/4" tempered glass plate. The stone itself is only 5mm thick, but is much more durable than previous offerings and should last a very long time.

Naniwa makes some of the worst stones you can buy, but they also make two of my favorites, the 3K and the 10K. Those two are top notch.

I agree that as you're never going to use all of your stones in one session, the most logical thing to do is to settle on a relatively simple routine that will cover all bases.

so the GlassStones are kinda like the Shapton M24 series that is a thin piece of pro stone mouted to a base (can't recall the material).

My guess was actually the 10k naniwa! is that the ceramic or the "snow white" magnesia stone you have?

I think what I might like to do at some point is to epoxy my pros to a wood base like the M15 series. I can get a little fancy and burn the grit and shapton logo onto the wood. I think it would be pretty slick! The plastic cases are nice, a lot more rugged and useful as a base than the norton case. and they can be stacked which makes storing stones relatively clutterless.

[ouch]

so the GlassStones are kinda like the Shapton M24 series that is a thin piece of pro stone mouted to a base (can't recall the material). .

Those are the poorly regarded M5 series. The M24's are rarely seen, an inch thick, and are intended primarily for restaurants.


My guess was actually the 10k naniwa! is that the ceramic or the "snow white" magnesia stone you have?.

Naniwa 10K
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=02.099.10&dept_id=13118

Naniwa 3K
http://www.korin.com/product.php?pid=200&cat=58&subcat=10&subsubcat=&df=knife&catname=Sharpening%20Stone&subcatname=Ceramic&subsubcatname=&mnum=HA-1044


I think what I might like to do at some point is to epoxy my pros to a wood base like the M15 series. I can get a little fancy and burn the grit and shapton logo onto the wood. I think it would be pretty slick! The plastic cases are nice, a lot more rugged and useful as a base than the norton case. and they can be stacked which makes storing stones relatively clutterless.

Good idea, but it will never look as slick as the GlassStones- you can even shine a light through them, and the underside of the stone is clearly marked with the grit, and can be viewed throught the glass plate.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm

[ouch]

..

[edk442]

Those are the poorly regarded M5 series. The M24's are rarely seen, an inch thick, and are intended primarily for restaurants


Just testing ya :P



Good idea, but it will never look as slick as the GlassStones- you can even shine a light through them, and the underside of the stone is clearly marked with the grit, and can be viewed throught the glass plate.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm

More traditional that slick I'd say. Those GlassStones have honestly intrigued me for a long time, but no ones really put them through the paces for razors. they are still ceramic so are they all that different from the pros? Do they perform well? Can/do you need to lap em? are they fast cutting? smooth cutting? what about feedback...the pros i use are incredibly responsive (to me at least)

the sequence follows the more traditional 1000/4000/8000 progression but i kinda like my 1500/5000/8000 progression

maybe i'll just epoxy my pros to a piece of glass :P

[shavindave]

I just received my ultrafine Spyderco stone, and took it on it's maiden voyage. I had recently purchased a Dovo micarta stainless, prehoned by the master, with a nice shavable edge, and decided to see if I could tweak it to a Feather-like level.

I used the Spyderco stone (dry), and the stone itself is as smooth as a baby's butt. The razor slid accross the stone like it was Teflon coated, about a dozen strokes. I followed this up with a Tony Miller diamond pasted paddle strop (1 micron, then 0.5 micron), about a dozen strokes each, followed by 40 strokes on Tony's Heirloom horsehide hanging strop. The whole process took about ten minutes.

The resulting edge is amazingly sharp and smooth shaving. I am in straight razor heaven.

[joel]

I just received my ultrafine Spyderco stone, and took it on it's maiden voyage. I had recently purchased a Dovo micarta stainless, prehoned by the master, with a nice shavable edge, and decided to see if I could tweak it to a Feather-like level.

I used the Spyderco stone (dry), and the stone itself is as smooth as a baby's butt. The razor slid accross the stone like it was Teflon coated, about a dozen strokes. I followed this up with a Tony Miller diamond pasted paddle strop (1 micron, then 0.5 micron), about a dozen strokes each, followed by 40 strokes on Tony's Heirloom horsehide hanging strop. The whole process took about ten minutes.

The resulting edge is amazingly sharp and smooth shaving. I am in straight razor heaven.

I hate to ruin your fun.... but it probably would have been smoother if you hadn't used the pastes!

At least for me - Dovo Micartas (I have owned 3, and honed 5 of them) are very hone friendly, but aren't too terribly fond of diamond pastes.

When the edge starts to dull on you, next time - just give it 5 or so passes on the Spyderco Ultrafine, and it should be wicked sharp again!

The Spyderco Ultrafines are like a barbers hone on steroids!

[shavindave]

I know the Spyderco ultrafine can be used wet, dry, or even with shave cream..... how do the honemeisters do it?

[moses]

I know the Spyderco ultrafine can be used wet, dry, or even with shave cream..... how do the honemeisters do it?

I was wondering about that too. What are the impacts of using it these different ways....

This hone is definitely tempting me a lot. When the biggest drawback is that it is "heavy." And for a pretty respectable price, and crazy ease of use. Hmm.....

-Mo

[heavydutysg135]

Joel:
What would be your "typical" progression to get a very dull razor (without any issues) sharp using only the Spyderco Medium, Fine, and Extra-Fine stones. These are tempting me a little.

[joel]

First - I only use them dry... never had a need to use them any other method - and Spyderco claims the finest edges will be attained using them dry... I've got a P'Kal in my pocket - so suffice to say I trust 'em. :wink:

As far as the progression when using the three stones? Errr... ummm... uhhh... couldn't tell ya. Every razor is a little different - depending on the size, the grind etc.

One thing to mention - the spyderco medium cuts fast... and I don't mean like weenie norton 4K fast, I mean you do 30-40 swipes on the spyderco medium and you take a wet paper towel and rub it on the hone - you'll see it CHOCK full of metal bits.

Honing with the Spydeco set is REALLY quick, and somewhat easy - with your biggest problem/issue over-honing more than anything else.

I can tell you this.... I'd rather have the Spyderco medium and fine - than a norton 4/8K.

[moses]

I can tell you this.... I'd rather have the Spyderco medium and fine - than a norton 4/8K.

You tell me this RIGHT AFTER I just bought a 4/8. You were just waiting to do that to me, weren't you?

-Mo

[heavydutysg135]

You tell me this RIGHT AFTER I just bought a 4/8. You were just waiting to do that to me, weren't you?

-Mo

The Norton 4K/8K is a great stone which many people have experience using so there will be a LOT of information on how to use the stone (maybe even too much). When you have trouble honing your razors in the early stages, there will be many people willing and able to give you advice on how to use this particular stone. It was a good purchase so don't worry about it. Some people have different prefferences as Joel does; however, I don't know of anyone else who uses the meduim and fine spyderco hones in place of the Norton 4K/8K (I am interested in trying this though). I do know several experienced people who really like the ultra fine after the Norton 4K though.

[joel]

You tell me this RIGHT AFTER I just bought a 4/8. You were just waiting to do that to me, weren't you?

-Mo

Mo,
To add insult to injury, I think they are easier to use, and certainly WAY less maintenence. Pretty inexpensive too, the medium and the fine spyderco's combined are less expensive than the Norton 4/8K. :wink:

Seriously though - the Nortons are superlative, and it'll work great for you.

:biggrin:

[moses]

Seriously though - the Nortons are superlative, and it'll work great for you.

Yeah, I'm not too worried.

-Mo

[joel]

BTW - take a look at the edge a Spyderco Ultra Fine puts on a razor HERE (http://www.tzknives.com/razoredges.html) - it doesn't get a whole lot better than that.

I finished up a few of the Dovo Tortoises today on one of my Belgian Coticules - and I do have to re-iterate, Belgians (and Eschers) are the most fun to hone with - the sound, feedback, feeling etc - it's just outstanding... honestly though I think the Spyderco Ultra Fine is just a better hone for the $.

[moses]

BTW - take a look at the edge a Spyderco Ultra Fine puts on a razor HERE (http://www.tzknives.com/razoredges.html) - it doesn't get a whole lot better than that.

That's pretty smooth looking.... About the only thing he got smoother, other than the commercial Feather blade, was the chromium oxide blade - that is CRAZY smooth.

-Mo

[heavydutysg135]

[QUOTE=joel;353598]
As far as the progression when using the three stones? Errr... ummm... uhhh... couldn't tell ya. Every razor is a little different - depending on the size, the grind etc.
QUOTE]

Let's say that you got a new Dovo Tortoise special full-hollow from the factory that is as dull as a butter knife. If you set a good bevel with the Spyderco Medium then about how many strokes would you be looking at needing on the fine and ultra-fine to polish the edge? Otherwise what specifically are you looking for in order to decide when it is time to move on to the next grit in the progression? I think that one of the main reasons that people usually purchase a Norton 4K/8K over these stones (which you claim are better) is because there is almost no information on how to properly use them for sharpening razors.

I also have another two questions about these stones:

1. At this point in the game I am not looking for the "best bang for the buck stone" or the "best stone for the price"; I am simply looking for the "best stones" period. I am lucky enough to own several high quality vintage kosher coticules and vintage German Eschers (Yellow and Blue) which all put an incredibly sharp and smooth edge on a razor. Do you think that the Spyderco UF beats the Coticule or Escher in terms of sharpness and/or smoothness or do you think that it is just a little worse or the same at a much better price? The pictures of the bevels on the Zowada site seem to indicate that the Spyderco leaves a much smoother scratch pattern than either the coticule or the escher, but the pictures might not correlate to the shave quality.

3. One of the members on the SRP posted that axmister.co.uk. listed the grits as the following:

WWW,axminster.co.uk.
They list the grit sizes as approximately Medium 800
Fine 1200
Ultrafine 10000.hope this helps.Paul

This makes a lot of sense to me because the stones are probably made primarily for sharpening knifes. It is my understanding that in knife sharpening 1200 would be very fine, but this is very course for a razor. Your estimated grit ratings are very different than these. Where did you come up with your grit ratings? Can you shave off the Fine stone which you estimate as 8000?

[joel]

Let's say that you got a new Dovo Tortoise special full-hollow from the factory that is as dull as a butter knife. If you set a good bevel with the Spyderco Medium then about how many strokes would you be looking at needing on the fine and ultra-fine to polish the edge? Otherwise what specifically are you looking for in order to decide when it is time to move on to the next grit in the progression? I think that one of the main reasons that people usually purchase a Norton 4K/8K over these stones (which you claim are better) is because there is almost no information on how to properly use them for sharpening razors.

I would give it about 10-15 or so strokes on the fine grit stone, test it by popping a few hairs off of my hand or arm, then if necessary - add a few more strokes. More than likely 20 should be sufficient, as the idea is to remove the scratch pattern from the medium. Doing the same with the ultra-fine stone (10-15, then test - probably another 5 or so more, test and should be good) should prove to deliver superb results. Each time you are about ready to move to the next hone, the hairs should pop off your arm/hand much easier and with no pressure. Strop up the razor, and test it out. If on the first shaving action on your face it's smooth as butter - you're good to go. If it's a little rough - but almost there, hit it with 5-7 more strokes on the ultra fine, strop it up, and test on your (already lathered) face. At this point you should be good to go. Assuming the first stroke is REALLY rough, go back to the fine stone, give it about 10-15 strokes, then about 15-20 on the Ultra-fine and you should be good.

Personally I am not fond of the "pyramid" and such very specific instruction on honing RE: number of strokes, as honing in my opinion is JUST like getting a super smooth shave with a shave ready straight... it's something that just takes time and experimentation. At least for me, the Spyderco's are easier/faster to use than the Nortons and took me a matter of days to "master" versus the Norton, which took me months to "master."




I also have another two questions about these stones:

1. At this point in the game I am not looking for the "best bang for the buck stone" or the "best stone for the price"; I am simply looking for the "best stones" period. I am lucky enough to own several high quality vintage kosher coticules and vintage German Eschers (Yellow and Blue) which all put an incredibly sharp and smooth edge on a razor. Do you think that the Spyderco UF beats the Coticule or Escher in terms of sharpness and/or smoothness or do you think that it is just a little worse or the same at a much better price? The pictures of the bevels on the Zowada site seem to indicate that the Spyderco leaves a much smoother scratch pattern than either the coticule or the escher, but the pictures might not correlate to the shave quality.

That's a really, really tricky one. For instance, some fellas think a razor finished on .25 diamond paste is too sharp, or rough on their face - and prefer a Coticule, or a less aggressive edge. Others feel a coticule isn't enough, and finish on diamond paste... some razors and grinds like some stones/methods while others another. I cannot, and will not tell you a one is "better" than the other, nor do I think you'll get a "this is the best hone" answer from ANY experienced straight razor shaver with more than 7-8 good hones, as a REALLY good hone, in a REALLY fine "finishing" grit typically will give you an incredibly smooth, buttery edge. For example - I REALLY like the edges I get on a lot of razors from the Chinese 12K, but it doesn't look all that impressive in Tim Z's pictures... but often, I like the edge I get on some razors more than ANY other hone I have. On the contrary, sometimes it's the Spyderco I get the absolute best edge from.

I understand what you're trying to get at.... you've got a lot of hones, and a lot of $ into hones, and you're trying to find out if it makes sense to get the Spyderco Ultra-Fine, and if it is better than your current hones. For you - I would say, pass on the Spyderco Ultra Fine. You have some excellent hones, and you aren't going to notice a shocking difference between the Spyderco and your current offerings. It would be like attempting to tell the difference in excelleration between a car that does the quarter mile in 11.5 seconds, versus 12.1 seconds by JUST using your "butt-o-meter" - and while the car doing the 11.5 second 1/4 mile IS faster - without a clock telling you it is, you really wouldn't have the slightest clue.

The closest I can get to helping you is by saying - if offered only ONE finishing hone, and I had the choices you previously listed you own, or the Spyderco UF, i'd pick the Spyderco UF for 3 performance related reasons - 1.) It basically will never need to be lapped 2.) It it used dry, so it is by far the quickest/easiest hone to use 3.) I think it gives every bit as good of a result as ANY other finishing hone/paste in terms of actually what it feels like on your face.

With that said - I don't think the Spyderco UF's are very much fun to use... so again - with someone with your battery/array of hones, I'd suggest stick with the very fun, and very expensive hones you've got... your quest is over :wink:




2. One of the members on the SRP posted that axmister.co.uk. listed the grits as the following:

WWW,axminster.co.uk.
They list the grit sizes as approximately Medium 800
Fine 1200
Ultrafine 10000.hope this helps.Paul

This makes a lot of sense to me because the stones are probably made primarily for sharpening knifes. It is my understanding that in knife sharpening 1200 would be very fine, but this is very course for a razor. Your estimated grit ratings are very different than these. Where did you come up with your grit ratings? Can you shave off the Fine stone which you estimate as 8000?

Grit scales as you know vary from "type of grit scale" - as for instance, a 4K norton is not a 4K Shapton... a 4K shapton is a much finer stone, yet both "claim" their stones are 4K's. To me, the medium stone cuts like a norton 4K on steroids, yet the edge will still easily/cleanly pop hairs. The fine I could probably get a decent shave with, and at least to me, feels like it develops a finer edge than the "8K" side of a norton. The Ultra Fine however? Well, at least for me, I get smoother results than a 16K shapton, so lord only knows what the grit is... frankly - I don't care about grits, as they are useless to me... I am 100% performance focused, and at least for me, the Spyderco in my opinion gives 95% of straight razor shavers ALL they will ever need.

Hope this helps!

[heavydutysg135]

I would give it about 10-15 or so strokes on the fine grit stone, test it by popping a few hairs off of my hand or arm, then if necessary - add a few more strokes. More than likely 20 should be sufficient, as the idea is to remove the scratch pattern from the medium. Doing the same with the ultra-fine stone (10-15, then test - probably another 5 or so more, test and should be good) should prove to deliver superb results. Each time you are about ready to move to the next hone, the hairs should pop off your arm/hand much easier and with no pressure. Strop up the razor, and test it out. If on the first shaving action on your face it's smooth as butter - you're good to go. If it's a little rough - but almost there, hit it with 5-7 more strokes on the ultra fine, strop it up, and test on your (already lathered) face. At this point you should be good to go. Assuming the first stroke is REALLY rough, go back to the fine stone, give it about 10-15 strokes, then about 15-20 on the Ultra-fine and you should be good.

Personally I am not fond of the "pyramid" and such very specific instruction on honing RE: number of strokes, as honing in my opinion is JUST like getting a super smooth shave with a shave ready straight... it's something that just takes time and experimentation. At least for me, the Spyderco's are easier/faster to use than the Nortons and took me a matter of days to "master" versus the Norton, which took me months to "master."




That's a really, really tricky one. For instance, some fellas think a razor finished on .25 diamond paste is too sharp, or rough on their face - and prefer a Coticule, or a less aggressive edge. Others feel a coticule isn't enough, and finish on diamond paste... some razors and grinds like some stones/methods while others another. I cannot, and will not tell you a one is "better" than the other, nor do I think you'll get a "this is the best hone" answer from ANY experienced straight razor shaver with more than 7-8 good hones, as a REALLY good hone, in a REALLY fine "finishing" grit typically will give you an incredibly smooth, buttery edge. For example - I REALLY like the edges I get on a lot of razors from the Chinese 12K, but it doesn't look all that impressive in Tim Z's pictures... but often, I like the edge I get on some razors more than ANY other hone I have. On the contrary, sometimes it's the Spyderco I get the absolute best edge from.

I understand what you're trying to get at.... you've got a lot of hones, and a lot of $ into hones, and you're trying to find out if it makes sense to get the Spyderco Ultra-Fine, and if it is better than your current hones. For you - I would say, pass on the Spyderco Ultra Fine. You have some excellent hones, and you aren't going to notice a shocking difference between the Spyderco and your current offerings. It would be like attempting to tell the difference in excelleration between a car that does the quarter mile in 11.5 seconds, versus 12.1 seconds by JUST using your "butt-o-meter" - and while the car doing the 11.5 second 1/4 mile IS faster - without a clock telling you it is, you really wouldn't have the slightest clue.

The closest I can get to helping you is by saying - if offered only ONE finishing hone, and I had the choices you previously listed you own, or the Spyderco UF, i'd pick the Spyderco UF for 3 performance related reasons - 1.) It basically will never need to be lapped 2.) It it used dry, so it is by far the quickest/easiest hone to use 3.) I think it gives every bit as good of a result as ANY other finishing hone/paste in terms of actually what it feels like on your face.

With that said - I don't think the Spyderco UF's are very much fun to use... so again - with someone with your battery/array of hones, I'd suggest stick with the very fun, and very expensive hones you've got... your quest is over :wink:




Grit scales as you know vary from "type of grit scale" - as for instance, a 4K norton is not a 4K Shapton... a 4K shapton is a much finer stone, yet both "claim" their stones are 4K's. To me, the medium stone cuts like a norton 4K on steroids, yet the edge will still easily/cleanly pop hairs. The fine I could probably get a decent shave with, and at least to me, feels like it develops a finer edge than the "8K" side of a norton. The Ultra Fine however? Well, at least for me, I get smoother results than a 16K shapton, so lord only knows what the grit is... frankly - I don't care about grits, as they are useless to me... I am 100% performance focused, and at least for me, the Spyderco in my opinion gives 95% of straight razor shavers ALL they will ever need.

Hope this helps!

Thank you sir. This helps a lot. I guess that I have a few more hones to add to the wish list. It will be a while but I will get them eventually and post my impressions. For $40 per stone it sounds like you really can't go wrong with these.

[karkarta]

I'll be a contrarian here, and say that there is one stone that works perfectly for all steels and that is the coticule.

With carbon steels, I find that I can use different stones to get basically correctly honed edges (let me qualify that - correctly honed for me. Others will likely find my edges "too sharp"). With stainless steels however, some stones almost never work (N4K/8K without any pastes), some stones work with some stainless razors (Eschers etc - work marvelously with Friodurs, but not so well with Dovos and pretty useless with stainless supersteel damascus). Only the coticules (both vintage and modern) work with all steel types.

A yellow coticule gives you what is in essence three grits - when used with a slurry, used with a sprinkling of water, and used dry - in increasing order of fineness. By playing with the number of strokes these three ways I have found that I can tame any razor, any steel, and don't need any pastes or whatever else.

What I mean to say is that there is an unambiguous answer to the question "Which is the best hone?"

[moses]

What I mean to say is that there is an unambiguous answer to the question "Which is the best hone?"

Well, for you, it seems that way. Although have you really tried them all?

But the fact that, while everyone seems to agree that the coticule is a great finishing stone, the majority of expert honers do not seem to be backing the colticule as the single best hone leaves it looking pretty ambiguous, objectively, I'd say.

Still having a strong urge to get a coticule, though.... :smile:

-Mo

[joel]

I'll be a contrarian here, and say that there is one stone that works perfectly for all steels and that is the coticule.

With carbon steels, I find that I can use different stones to get basically correctly honed edges (let me qualify that - correctly honed for me. Others will likely find my edges "too sharp"). With stainless steels however, some stones almost never work (N4K/8K without any pastes), some stones work with some stainless razors (Eschers etc - work marvelously with Friodurs, but not so well with Dovos and pretty useless with stainless supersteel damascus). Only the coticules (both vintage and modern) work with all steel types.

A yellow coticule gives you what is in essence three grits - when used with a slurry, used with a sprinkling of water, and used dry - in increasing order of fineness. By playing with the number of strokes these three ways I have found that I can tame any razor, any steel, and don't need any pastes or whatever else.

What I mean to say is that there is an unambiguous answer to the question "Which is the best hone?"

I couldn't disagree with you more... but hey - that's what makes horse racing. :wink:

For what it's worth - on razors that microchip a Coticule is worthless, and there are quite a few stones that leave a nicer, finer edge. They're nice - but there is no holy grail.

[karkarta]

Yes Mo, I have tried whatever I listed. I haven't tried the Spyderco UF, so I didn't mention it. If it also gives a 100% success rate with all razors, I'd say go for it. Amongst whatever I have tried, the coticule is the only one that works every time.

Yes, Joel, I know the fun to be had upsetting the apple cart - I do have dissenting opinions on many honing issues. These opinions formed by trying out almost every hone and method mentioned on the forums, and by trying out many honemeister edges. With my double-whammy combination of an extremely tough beard and ultra sensitive skin, I found that most honemeister edges were quite inadequate for me. Even today I buy razors off the BST forums here and at other sites that are advertised as shave ready, and are nowhere near being able to shave me. Others gush praises about those very same sellers, many of who are acknowledged experts at honing.

And I have a 7/8 Wacker, supposedly the microchipping king. With a coticule used dry, I get no microchipping whatsoever. I'd recommend trying the coticule dry to see whats truly possible with it. And in theory the obtuse angles of the dodecahedral garnet crystals would counteract the tendency to microchip, whereas the acute angles of alumina or diamond would exacerbate it. My experience bears this out - and I just love it when theory and practice corroborate each other. Whats more, I feel that this is quite easily reproducible.

[joel]

Yes Mo, I have tried whatever I listed. I haven't tried the Spyderco UF, so I didn't mention it. If it also gives a 100% success rate with all razors, I'd say go for it. Amongst whatever I have tried, the coticule is the only one that works every time.

Yes, Joel, I know the fun to be had upsetting the apple cart - I do have dissenting opinions on many honing issues. These opinions formed by trying out almost every hone and method mentioned on the forums, and by trying out many honemeister edges. With my double-whammy combination of an extremely tough beard and ultra sensitive skin, I found that most honemeister edges were quite inadequate for me. Even today I buy razors off the BST forums here and at other sites that are advertised as shave ready, and are nowhere near being able to shave me. Others gush praises about those very same sellers, many of who are acknowledged experts at honing.

And I have a 7/8 Wacker, supposedly the microchipping king. With a coticule used dry, I get no microchipping whatsoever. I'd recommend trying the coticule dry to see whats truly possible with it. And in theory the obtuse angles of the dodecahedral garnet crystals would counteract the tendency to microchip, whereas the acute angles of alumina or diamond would exacerbate it. My experience bears this out - and I just love it when theory and practice corroborate each other. Whats more, I feel that this is quite easily reproducible.

I appreciate, welcome and respect your opinion. With that said - if you're game, send me your Wacker honed on your Coticule, I'll test it, let you know my opinion, then send it back to you shaving smoother. :wink:

[moses]

Yes Mo, I have tried whatever I listed. I haven't tried the Spyderco UF, so I didn't mention it. If it also gives a 100% success rate with all razors, I'd say go for it. Amongst whatever I have tried, the coticule is the only one that works every time.

Oh, I didn't mean to question that. I assumed you had. But you had only mentioned the Escher and the Norton 4/8. I figured you had probably tried quite a few others, too, but there are so many....

-Mo

[moses]

I appreciate, welcome and respect your opinion. With that said - if you're game, send me your Wacker honed on your Coticule, I'll test it, let you know my opinion, then send it back to you shaving smoother. :wink:

That could be fun. I say do it both ways....

-Mo

[karkarta]

I'm game - if nothing, it is a chance to learn something new, and I welcome the opportunity. I agree with Mo - lets do it both ways - you send me your Wacker and I send you mine.

(Now there's a dirty sentence if I ever heard one. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: )

But no, we don't have to send our Wackers - you could send me any other razor you thought was difficult or tricky to hone.

Only thing is, this will have to wait for about a week or so - I am tied down with the kids - the wife is attending a training program till next Friday and I can barely manage the normal stuff alone with two little ones.

[izlat]

ooh - nice, I am looking forward to the results! :biggrin:

I also have sensitive skin and somewhat tough beard and do not like to use a razor finished on a dry coticule. (if I shave right after the coticule - I need to have it sprinkled with water to finish) Also, I had a Norton 4K/8K which worked very well on a Friodur. I do agree that a diamond hone will exacerbate microchipping, and one *may* tame microchipping on a coticule (if something slower is not available)

Anyway, looking forward to the exchange and results

Cheers
Ivo

[CloseShave]

Joel,

Thanks for the review of the Spyderco Ultra Fine. I got mine yesterday. Honed my razor with it last night and had an incrediblble smooth shave this morning. I passed on the results and your info at SRP.
My question is: Is a medium stone necessary in addition to a uf for new blades.

[ouch]

I appreciate, welcome and respect your opinion. With that said - if you're game, send me your Wacker honed on your Coticule, I'll test it, let you know my opinion, then send it back to you shaving smoother. :wink:

That thud you just heard is the sound of a gauntlet being dropped. Either that, or my wife just pulled into the garage.

I want to see how those dododecadohickey 12 sided thingies perform. :lol:

[heavydutysg135]

Well, I just pulled the trigger on these three spyderco stones after trying my friend's spyderco UF. I have not shaved with the spyderco sharpened razors yet but the scratch pattern was definately finer than the coticule and the edge felt VERY sharp. The stones felt very different to use than a wet coticule (or escher) because the stone gives you almost no feedback, which is not necessarily a bad thing but just a little different than what I am used to. I am really hoping that the medium will cut faster than the Norton 4K so that it will speed up the process of setting a bevel on eBay dogs.

I am still a little confused about whether I should lap these stones or not, and if so which ones should be lapped and what I should use to do the job. My DMT-C 325 grit has worked extremely well for lapping every type of stone so far, but I am a little unsure after one of the comments about someone "ruining their DMT". While I am not really sure how a diamond stone could be ruined by a ceramic stone, I just figured I would ask people who have already lapped these stones what they used and what their experiences were. I am expecting these to take a LONG time and a lot of work to lap because of their hardness.

David

[joel]

Well, I just pulled the trigger on these three spyderco stones after trying my friend's spyderco UF. I have not shaved with the spyderco sharpened razors yet but the scratch pattern was definately finer than the coticule and the edge felt VERY sharp. The stones felt very different to use than a wet coticule (or escher) because the stone gives you almost no feedback, which is not necessarily a bad thing but just a little different than what I am used to. I am really hoping that the medium will cut faster than the Norton 4K so that it will speed up the process of setting a bevel on eBay dogs.

I am still a little confused about whether I should lap these stones or not, and if so which ones should be lapped and what I should use to do the job. My DMT-C 325 grit has worked extremely well for lapping every type of stone so far, but I am a little unsure after one of the comments about someone "ruining their DMT". While I am not really sure how a diamond stone could be ruined by a ceramic stone, I just figured I would ask people who have already lapped these stones what they used and what their experiences were. I am expecting these to take a LONG time and a lot of work to lap because of their hardness.

David

David,
The lapping issue is an odd one... I'd say try them first, see if they work well, and if the do - don't lap 'em. If they don't "wow" you - then lap 'em, and your 325 grit plate should work, and it shouldn't ruin it (it didn't ruin mine) but it will take an absurdly long amount of time - at least for the fine, and ultra fine.... the medium isn't too bad.

The good news? Once they are lapped - you'll likely never have to do so again.

[daveesq]

David,
The lapping issue is an odd one... I'd say try them first, see if they work well, and if the do - don't lap 'em. If they don't "wow" you - then lap 'em, and your 325 grit plate should work, and it shouldn't ruin it (it didn't ruin mine) but it will take an absurdly long amount of time - at least for the fine, and ultra fine.... the medium isn't too bad.

The good news? Once they are lapped - you'll likely never have to do so again.

I'm in the process of lappng my fine stone. It's taken a solid week already, about one hour at a time, and it's still not there. Not a fun process, and had I not already started, I'd follow Joel's advice to a 'T'.

My own little bit of advice, however, is this: There are two sides, equally capable of honing; mark them up with pencil and lap a little, one at a time, to determine which - if either - side is convex (bulging out in the middle). Lap (and eventually hone with) that side, as it goes a hell of a lot faster than the one that's concave.

[heavydutysg135]

I asked Mr. Zowada about the lapping the Spyderco stones and this is what he wrote to me:

I would only lap the Spyderco stones if you don't like the finish they give. One of the Spyderco secrets is that the fine and the ultra fine are the same stone. The ultra fine is lapped on a diamond lapping machine. Sometimes it has small ridges left from the lapping. I spend about two hours and 20 sheets of 400 grit silicon carbide to get these half way off. If you lap your fine grit stone, you will turn it in to an ultra fine. I really like the Spyderco stones. They are all I use on my knives. I'm experimenting with the ultra fine on the razors. The ultra fine is flat from the factory, It just has those little ridges. The medium and fine are pretty flat, though the quality varies a little.

-Tim Zowada

[edk442]

my medium lapped up quickly. the fine has been a real PITA to lap, I've gotten it to the point where there are only 2 opposing corners that are not flat, and it will probably remain that way because to get the entire surface flat would be absurd. the ultrafine presented the same problem, but wasn't so bad off from the get go. i think another 30 minutes oughta get the job done

like joel said. once they are lapped thank god you'll never have to do it again

[heavydutysg135]

my medium lapped up quickly. the fine has been a real PITA to lap, I've gotten it to the point where there are only 2 opposing corners that are not flat, and it will probably remain that way because to get the entire surface flat would be absurd. the ultrafine presented the same problem, but wasn't so bad off from the get go. i think another 30 minutes oughta get the job done

like joel said. once they are lapped thank god you'll never have to do it again


From Mr. Zowada's response, it seems like the Fine should not be lapped because it would remove the ridges and turn it into an ultra fine. Did I read that incorrectly?

[daveesq]

As much as I admire Mr. Zowada's work, I think that I'd have to disagree about them being the same stone. I've read that they differ pretty considerably: something like 1500 for the fine and 10K for the UF. If nothing else, they're slightly different colors (the fine being more cream-colored than the UF).

[edk442]

From Mr. Zowada's response, it seems like the Fine should not be lapped because it would remove the ridges and turn it into an ultra fine. Did I read that incorrectly?

from reading it it sounds like the ultrafine has ridges which i agree with as a can see the swirls, so how would lapping a fine turn it into an ultrafine (my fine had a ridge-free texture)? when i first got my stones, they looked similar in color and i wondered if they were indeed the same stone, but i can't understand how surface texture would affect the finish:confused1

[matt321]

As much as I admire Mr. Zowada's work, I think that I'd have to disagree about them being the same stone. ).

I've heard this before. (The fine and ultrafine are the same stone.) I think what this means is that they are made from the same stuff and the same process. The different surface grit results from different finishing.

Otherwise they are different. The fines are chamfered, but the edges of the ultrafine are raw and very sharp. The ultrafine have a swirl pattern, but I don't think it is significant to sharpening.

I haven't tried to flatten mine. I did test each surface with a straight edge and I marked the sides that were least flat so I can avoid them. I have worked on the edges of both stones to work out rough spots and imperfections. They weren't useable till I did that. I used various other hard stones and DMT's to do that.

The grit rating for both stones are apparently subjective. This link is interesting. Take a look at the micrographs from Yuzuha's post about half way down in the link.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480260

[CloseShave]

The fine stone feels more coarse than the ultra fine to the touch and as I pass my blades over them. Additionally, the edge feels sharper to the tpt test after using the uf. Finally, hairs pop crisply off the edge after using the uf. In sum, I think the differences are distinct.

[daveesq]

At least for my pair, the UF is also considerably denser than the fine. At least, that's what I reckon.

These stones have that ceramic / glassy sound to them when they bump around. The "note" of the UF when flicked with my fingernail is quite a bit lower than that of the fine - and this despite the fact that it's also thinner in two dimensions. If they were the same density, the somewhat smaller size of the UF should produce a higher note than the fine (like equally-tense guitar strings of the same material, but of differing diameter), but something is working to the opposite effect. I'm sure that it could be something other than different densities, but nothing immediately comes to mind.

[matt321]

Here is some more info from Sal on the Spyderco forum concerning the composition of the Spyderco stones:

All of the ceramics use the same micron size (15-25). the different grits are created by different carriers, different firing techniques and diamond surface grinding

We've spent a great deal of time trying to determine grits for our stones. The manufacturer has also worked with us, to no avail. A guess seems to be best.

Most abrasives are measured by the grit size used in the matrix. Our ceramic doesn 't work that way. Grit size is constant.

We've tried to compare scratch patterns as Cliff mentioned and this is probably the closest, but nothing that we can say "This is blah blah". Then the Japanese water stones jump into the equation and suddenly there is whole new set of numbers.

So where we end up is:

Our diamonds are a 400 mesh (measureable). (600 on the Duckfoot)

Our gray stone is "medium". (Same material as fine but different carriers and heat treat).

Our fine stone is fine.

Our extra fine is a surface ground fine.....http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31188

The surface grinding comment is interesting cuz it implies that working the surface (flattening by the user) could impact the effective grit rating. This is the concern that heavydutysg135 raised.

[Aloosh]

i bought all three grit stones (medium, fine and ultra fine) and have found them a joy to use.

My ultra fine stone was missing a rubber grip from the base of the case so I emailed Spyderco and Charlynn there has asked for my address so that she can mail one out. I was actually enquiring to purchase one as I had purchased froma third party seller and it is entirely possible that Spyderco is not at all responsible. I'm as pleased with the customer service as I am with the stones.

[SKB]

I am considering purchasing some spyderco hones as my first hones.

For maintaining sharp blades and sharpening new razors, are all three hones necessary, or could one get by with just the finest two?

[joel]

I am considering purchasing some spyderco hones as my first hones.

For maintaining sharp blades and sharpening new razors, are all three hones necessary, or could one get by with just the finest two?

For sharpening new razors, you'll likely need all three.

[daveesq]

+1 on needing all three for new razors.

Relatedly, I finally got done lapping my three Spydercos (took for f-in ever!!!), and just in time. My 5/8 Dovo in tortoise that I bought from Joel had been pulling pretty well and I then proceeded to ding the edge in the sink last week. Thank God the sink was full of water, otherwise it would have been a chip; as it was, the water slowed it (it fell in with the side of the blade almost parallel to the water's surface), and it just put a light "dent" in the edge. It more-or-less just really, really dulled a part of the blade.

That's where the three hones came in. I marked up the edge with a Sharpie and went for the full series, starting with the medium until the mark was completely gone, then to the fine and ultra fine respectively, checking my work with the thumbpad test and a jeweler's loupe. Stropped her up this morning and damn, what a great shave! Practially no pull whatsoever (a little ATG on the 'stache), and BBS everywhere but one hard spot by my Adam's apple. And this on my first real go at honing, so I'm sure it's less than optimal.

I would probably say that it was the best straight shave I've had in terms of comfort and probably tied for closeness. I think that in my newbieism, I rolled or otherwise dulled the edge of the razor pretty early on, and I didn't know any better; I thought that some pull was just part of it. I'm very happy that I decided to get these hones; they make for a beautiful shave.

I'm itchin' to get home now and see if I can't work on my technique to make it just a little better.

[JonnyAngel]

Im looking to get into a honing set up at cheaply as possible. This seems to be a really good way to go. Its around 125 shipped to my door. That and a starter strop from Tony Miller. This a good starter setup?

[joel]

Im looking to get into a honing set up at cheaply as possible. This seems to be a really good way to go. Its around 125 shipped to my door. That and a starter strop from Tony Miller. This a good starter setup?

Yes.

[Sticky]

...
This a good starter setup?

Don't forget that you might need to lap the medium and fine (and/or UF???). The DMC D8C is reported to be the most time-efficient way. I just picked up a D8C today and am about to find out for myself...

My Spyderco medium and fine definitely need to be lapped.


Luck,

[daveesq]

Don't forget that you might need to lap the medium and fine (and/or UF???). The DMC D8C is reported to be the most time-efficient way. I just picked up a D8C today and am about to find out for myself...

My Spyderco medium and fine definitely need to be lapped.


Luck,

Be prepared to spend a considerable amount of time. Really, it's an absolute bear. Admittedly, the Medium is easier than either of the other two, but it's not pretty.

On the plus side, my arm muscles are much more toned than when I started.

[bjrn]

My Spyderco medium and fine definitely need to be lapped.Someone wrote that there was guaranteed flatness on the Spydercos (ie that you could sent out for a replacement if you got one that wasn't flat). Was that incorrect?

[Sticky]

Someone wrote that there was guaranteed flatness on the Spydercos (ie that you could sent out for a replacement if you got one that wasn't flat). Was that incorrect?
Correct indeed.

I believe the Spyderco is guaranteed to be w/in .020" over 8" length. This maths out to .005"/2" of length. Five thousandths of an inch over 2 inches may not be good enough for a nice edge on a razor. That is more than enough to leave pencil marks behind.

The DMT plates are guaranteed to +/- .001! If they mean over the entire 8 inch length then I am suitably impressed!!!

I don't really mind lapping them now that I don't have to use wet or dry paper.

[Sticky]

For what it's worth, this is what my Spyderco fine looked like on each side after 10 minutes per on a D8C. Using only the weight of the hone. One side may be already flat enough (?); the second side? Opinions on either side?

side 1:
15508

side 2:
15509

As a side note, the thickness of most pencil marks has been estimated to be 4 to 17 nanoinches. :eek: That is, billionths of an inch...0.000000004" to 0.000000017". (not a real issue in terms of the D8C's +/-.001")

[CloseShave]

What was the result on the shaving edge of your flattened hone? Did your edge feel more comfortable and give a better shave?

[Sticky]

I haven't tried to shave off of this hone yet. I will get it a little flatter before I put my razors on it.

That might change based on more opinions about my "flat enough?" question.

[JBHoren]

I haven't tried to shave off of this hone yet. I will get it a little flatter before I put my razors on it.

The Earth is flat, and no one I know has yet to fall off of it.


That might change based on more opinions about my "flat enough?" question.

Exactly my point... don't believe anyone until you, personally, see someone falling off. Accept first-hand knowledge, only; none of this "anecdotal" stuff!

[stripec30]

Just ordered the Spyderco Set... Common UPS...

[matt321]

I've had good results shaving off my ultrafine. I like the way the blade slides across the surface of the stone like silk. I can use pressure or alternatively I can use as light of a touch as I want. On waterstones I find it difficult to lighten up on the pressure. That is no prob on the UF. This must be an important factor, cuz I think the UF gives a much coarser finish when used with pressure. Not 13k but more like 4k. Anyway, I like it so much, I'm tempted to get the 3-inch wide version(306UF) when they ship. Sal says they are waiting on the leather cases.

[ScottS]

Where are people buying these? Any deals to be had?

[daveesq]

According to the Spyderco website, they're now producing a 3x8 ultrafine stone (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=271). I've sent an email to the customer service people there asking whether they're also going to be making medium and fine grit stones of the same size, but the person who answers such emails is out of the office until Monday. I'll keep you updated on what they end up saying.

I was just looking in the Spyderco online catalog at the sharpmakers so recommended in the kitchen knives sharpening thread, and I noticed that the 3x8 stone is no longer marked as "out of stock." The leather cases must have come in.

[TstebinsB]

I've been trying to decide whether to get the Chinese 12K or the Spyderco UF. After reading the reviews, I'm going with the UF. I'll use it in between the DMT D8EE and a balsa pasted strop. It should work very nicely. If for whatever reason I don't like it, I'm sure I could trade it with somebody for the Chinese 12K. :smile:

[Lance]

I just started lapping the Spyderco Medium with the DMT coarse. Meaning I've been working at it for about 2.5 hours straight and am just now starting to see results.:001_huh: My concern is that the Spyderco Medium (and the DMT) are much smoother now than when I started. I've made sure to not press and just let the Spyderco's weight do the work but I worry that I'm ruining a couple of hones.

Someone reasure me that just because the Medium Spyderco feels like a Spyderco Fine - it really isn't:crying:

I am Sooo looking forward to flattening the Find and Ultra:a46:

[joel]

I just started lapping the Spyderco Medium with the DMT coarse. Meaning I've been working at it for about 2.5 hours straight and am just now starting to see results.:001_huh: My concern is that the Spyderco Medium (and the DMT) are much smoother now than when I started. I've made sure to not press and just let the Spyderco's weight do the work but I worry that I'm ruining a couple of hones.

Someone reasure me that just because the Medium Spyderco feels like a Spyderco Fine - it really isn't:crying:

I am Sooo looking forward to flattening the Find and Ultra:a46:

You should be ok.... it's just a miserable experience.

[Lance]

Reading the previous posts on honing I thought that it was possible to hone the Spyderco hones but although this hone is not flat it would not flatten without also loosing it's grit, too. The image shows a shine where the stone was too high and has been ground down by the DMT coarse.

Just a heads-up. DMTs will not flatten the Spyderco medium without ruining it. I don't know about the fine or Ultra which I'm afraid of flattening now.:letterk2:

[joel]

Reading the previous posts on honing I thought that it was possible to hone the Spyderco hones but although this hone is not flat it would not flatten without also loosing it's grit, too. The image shows a shine where the stone was too high and has been ground down by the DMT coarse.

Just a heads-up. DMTs will not flatten the Spyderco medium without ruining it. I don't know about the fine or Ultra which I'm afraid of flattening now.:letterk2:

uhhh.... a stone's grit is not due to it's finish. The medium spyderco will be the same effectiveness once lapped on the DMT. Spyderco's and DMT's (and a few others) will smooth out with use - but the work identical.

[Sticky]

Reading the previous posts on honing I thought that it was possible to hone the Spyderco hones but although this hone is not flat it would not flatten without also loosing it's grit, too. The image shows a shine where the stone was too high and has been ground down by the DMT coarse.

Just a heads-up. DMTs will not flatten the Spyderco medium without ruining it. I don't know about the fine or Ultra which I'm afraid of flattening now.:letterk2:

It's not ruined.

I lapped all 3 of my Spydercos and they work just fine. I was told in an email from Spyderco that lapping the UF will void the warranty. It took me over 80 hours to lap all 3 (they all needed it). My specimens were all at the "allowed" factory tolerance of 0.020".

The really bad news (or good, from a durability viewpoint?) is that the Fine and Ultra Fine are a good bit harder and take longer to lap than the medium... :eek:

[Lance]

"uhhh.... a stone's grit is not due to it's finish. The medium spyderco will be the same effectiveness once lapped on the DMT. Spyderco's and DMT's (and a few others) will smooth out with use - but the work identical."

Thanks Joel and Sticky. I just assumed that since it felt as smooth as my ultra-fine that it was no longer effective as a bevel maker for the collection of razors I've begun to aquire.:001_huh:

[papasmurf]

Holy hell am I hating this things .

I bought the set and after 2 hours on the med. I am done I have spent about 3.5 hours on the fine . I have not yet started the UF . These things better be really really good after all this work.

Next I need to lap my Chinese 12k .

[Sticky]

Only three and a half hours on the fine? Sounds like a great day to buy a lottery ticket... :w00t:

[papasmurf]

Only three and a half hours on the fine? Sounds like a great day to buy a lottery ticket... :w00t:


I still have a spot the size of a quarter left :mad2::mad2::mad2::rik1:

[kelbro]

I had considered the Spydercos but my off time is worth more than the presumed benefit of lapping one of these or worse yet, three of them! Norton 4/8 and Chinese 12K with and then without slurry gets me BBS.

[joke1176]

I have used the Spyderco trio on 5-6 razors and really like em so far. Of course, I bought mine pre-lapped...:wink:

[Seraphim]

Do they really even need to be lapped?

They may not be flat over the entire 8" length, but your razor is only 5/8-7/8" wide anyhow. The slight offset over that less than 1 inch distance I can't imagine would have much of an impact.

[Sticky]

Do they really even need to be lapped?

They may not be flat over the entire 8" length, but your razor is only 5/8-7/8" wide anyhow. The slight offset over that less than 1 inch distance I can't imagine would have much of an impact.

Depends on your luck. All 3 of mine did. Oddly, from the factory, my medium hone was the flattest of the three. Flat matters as much for a Spyderco as it does for any hone.

Try it before lapping, if it works o.k. then don't lap it.

[cityjim]

Spyderco Hones (Medium, Fine, Extra Fine)

http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9198

http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9137

http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9244

Spyderco hones are very neat/interesting hones that are not talked about too terribly often, however they are inexpensive, hard as can be, incredibly flat, and just about the easiest hone to use – as they can even be used dry! Dry, with water, with lather… all extremely effective. These hones come in 3 different grits, medium (which has a brown color hone, with dark blue honing station), Fine (a white color hone with a light blue honing station) and Extra-Fine (a white color hone with a black honing station). The medium cuts incredibly fast and removes a lot of steel, the fine and ultra fine cut pretty quickly as well. The ultra-fine creates and incredibly fine/delicate edge, and works quickly and easily wet – or dry. Cleaning the hones is a snap – a little powdered cleaner and a green scotch brite pad – and they’ll look good as new. These hones are incredibly hard (being ceramic) and the fine and ultra-fine will show no wear with use – and the medium will show minimal wear with use. These hones are 2” X 8” X .5”

Medium is approx 3-4K
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9288
Fine is approx 8K
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9171
Extra Fine is approx 13-14K
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9161

Pro’s
1.) Reasonably priced, decent sized and work well.
2.) Cut very quickly/easily.
3.) Can be used dry, with water, or with lather.
4.) Minimal maintenance.

Size comparison - Spyderco ultra fine next to a Norton 4K/8K...
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=9182

Con’s
1.) Must use an “X” honing pattern
2.) Miserable to lap because they are so hard.
3.) Very heavy.

PROCEED TO THE NEXT SECTION OF THE GUIDE - Section 7 - 8, Kitayama Hone (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?p=347313#post347313)

BACK TO THE TABLE OF CONTENTS (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28547)



This directly from Spyderco below . You might want to adjust your grit quotes .


" Our Sharpening stones are made of high alumina ceramic. There is not actual "grit" rating for these style of stones because a grit refers to the size of the abrasive particles in a sandpaper. A approximate "grit" for the Spyderco High Alumina Ultra Fine Ceramic is 2,000 , Fine is 1,800 and Medium is 600 . Thank you for your question.

Spyderco Factory Outlet
820 Spyderco Way
Golden, Colorado 80403

Phone: 800-828-1925 x 4

Fax: 303-278-2057
www.Spyderco.com
www.BaliYo.com " END QUOTE


cityjim

[cityjim]

Do they really even need to be lapped?

They may not be flat over the entire 8" length, but your razor is only 5/8-7/8" wide anyhow. The slight offset over that less than 1 inch distance I can't imagine would have much of an impact.


I talked to Spyderco on the phone . They said if any of their ceramic stones need lapping , you are to send it back for a free replacement . They said they should never need lapped because of how they make them and so on ..........

They said just use them and you should be happy with the results .


cityjim

[matt321]

Thanks for the Spyderco feedback. That's about what they said last year, except they wouldn't go on the record with actual numbers. They also said lapping voids the warranty. None the less, the actual grit performance and the lapping issue are still subject to individual interpretation. Some of the most experienced straight razor users I know say the effective grit rating of the UF is much finer than 2,500 and that the performance can be improved by lapping. (Just fyi, I've had the three benchstones for years. I haven't had much luck with them myself.)

[cityjim]

UPDATE to my figures on the Spyderco stones . I added a new post also with this info . This came from another phone call to Spyderco .

Ultra Fine is 2,000 "grit"
Fine is 1,800 "grit"
Medium is 600 "grit"

Again Spyderco ceramic stones contain NO grit .


cityjim

[PapaFish]

Very important correction: they are NOT Lap-able!
These hones are guaranteed flat from Spyderco and are harder than diamond (ruined a good diamond hone trying to lap one!)
Send an untrue hone back to Spyderco (talk to customer service) and they will replace it. I have to send my Fine grit in- didn't notice it was not flat until I tried honing a razor. Carving tools are much less effected by it.

I know this is an old thread, but one point, these hones are NOT harder than diamond.
The synthetic ruby-like "grit" in the white Spyderco hones are a 9 (out of 10) for hardness, their binder, ceramic, is also a 9.
A diamond is 10 on the hardness scale, so my guess as to why the Spyderco beats up on the diamond hone so much is that either the binder is less than or equal to a 9 for hardness, or it is equal to or more brittle than the ceramic.

[LessLemming]

Of course the spyderco is not harder than a natural diamond,
but the Diamond plates we use are just diamond particles embedded in a steel or nickel matrix.
Even though the matrix is very tough, hard work will break free diamonds very easily

Has anyone ever tried a belt sander for lapping a Spyderco?
Should save a lot of time...

[Loric]

Has anyone ever tried a belt sander for lapping a Spyderco?
Should save a lot of time...

I would think that a belt sander would not be capable of creating a truly flat surface on a hone, but if I'm wrong, I'd love for you to prove it to me. I lapped my UF with a DMT XXC and the XXC seemed to make it out just fine. It still chewed up my Chinese 12K in a hurry. When cutting hard stones, just remember to wash off the slurry quite often, aggressive rinsing seems to prevent the diamonds from being ripped out so easy.

[LessLemming]

unfortunately I don´t have a belt sander at hand (nor do I have a spyderco).
On the other hand, why not place a sanding belt with a medium coarse grit on a long flat surface,
and lapp with that? Should save some time, as well...

[TstebinsB]

I lapped a Spyderco UF in an hour with the XX. :001_cool:

I've seen people talk about DMT stones being ruined by other stones. That sounds like user error. I've lapped numerous stones with the DMT XX without an issue. I think people hear "diamond" and they think the DMT is indestructible. The diamond particles can fall out if you're too rough with the stone.

[Neurotopia]

I've never had a problem if the lapping is done under running water.

[Thomas Martin]

I purchased the spyderco trio and gave them a try. Dulled the edge on glass. Honed with the medium until I could shave the hairs on my arms then moved on to the fine and UF (pyramid style). It shaves all right but not really perfectly. I had problems shaving my chin and still felt some tugging. What would you advise me to do. Keep on with the UF until satisfied or go back to the fine?

[PapaFish]

It's hard to say. If you didn't do enough with the fine, then staying on the UF could take a LONG time. Try doing 100 good passes on the fine, then 100 good passes on the UF. See what happens. You can go even higher on each if you want, the Spyderco ceramic hones are relatively slow stones.