We-e-e-elll.. la-de-freakin'-da!

[kg0mz]

I am seeing more and more announcements that include a statement like..."Please do not wear perfume, cologne, aftershave or deodorant to this meeting." Ostensibly, the argument is there are people in the world who would need to go to ER if they have to sit next to me wearing cologne. Really? 1 in 1,000,000, maybe. There are bubbles for folks that sensitive. Not that I am insensitive to this miniscule minority, but should the majority be required to change their hygiene practices? Political correctness gone rampant if you ask me (and no one did). I have yet to meet someone this sensitive, but I have run into biddies and dorks who simply don't approve of me wearing aftershave. We-e-e-ell...la-de-freakin'-da!YMMV. I feel better now.

[markewallace]

We-e-e-ell...la-de-freakin'-da!


Not that I am insensitive to this miniscule minority

Sorry, but "la-de-freakin'-da!" makes it sound to me like you *are* insensitive to this minority.

- Mark

[nole1]

I just don't understand why nowadays, everyone in the room has to accomodate one person instead of the one person realizing there may be an issue and planning accordingly. I feel the same way about schools and daycares that are forced to be nut/egg/random-food free because 1 of the 300 kids as an allergy.

[Dusty1]

I am insensitive to the minority, the key word here being minority.

[Schad]

Just wear whatever you want and if anyone calls you on it (very good chance they wont), say "nah I'm not wearing anything". What are they gonna do? Search your home and grab skin samples off your body? You win.

Could also say "that's my soap". Nothing they can say/do about it.

I don't worry much about these things.

[Schad]

Separate note: I hate the smell of cigarette smoking. Obviously smoking is banned is certain locations, which I am in favor of. But frequently someone will reek of cigarette smoke that's on their clothes. What am I gonna do about it? NOTHING. Is anyone going to ask them to change clothes? No. You just deal with it. Same w/ colognes, since I'm on "the other side" on that argument. They'll just have to deal with it.

Obviously if I've done 6 sprays of Aventus, then it's on me and of course I don't want to be "that guy" either.

[TonyH]

I'm not sure how spraying yourself with scented oils = hygiene, but if I'm sitting next to you and I can smell you, then it's too much.

[markewallace]

I just don't understand why nowadays, everyone in the room has to accomodate one person instead of the one person realizing there may be an issue and planning accordingly. I feel the same way about schools and daycares that are forced to be nut/egg/random-food free because 1 of the 300 kids as an allergy.

Flip it around. Try to see how people with (say) a fragrance intolerance (and, I mean, a physical disability, not just "I don't like strong smells") can't understand why people insist on wearing strong fragrances when there are people around who have a physical limitation that makes them very sensitive to the smell.

To me, "la-de-freakin'-da" tells me (1) you don't care about the disabilities of others, and (2) your proposal for how to remedy the situation is that I have to "plan accordingly" by wearing a mask, sitting apart from others, etc..., whereas you could simply not wear the fragrance when you know that it might bother others.

Notes: (1) I'm generalizing here. I'm not personally offended or bothered by fragrances. (2) "You" and "your" are in general terms and not directed personally at anyone in the thread.

- Mark

[Schad]

If I can smell your cigarette smoke on your clothes, then you've smoked too much.

If you smell like Chinese food after eating at a restaurant, then you've sat there too long.

Would these be fair arguments too?

[rearviewmirror]

I have a VERY serious nut allergy, to one specific type of nut. pine nuts. if i go to a place and they have pesto on the menu, or use it on a sandwich, I dont eat there. I've learned the hard way. The knife they use to spread it on a sandwich needs to be more then just wiped off, otherwise i'm going into anaphalytic shock. not worth it.

[TonyH]

I have a VERY serious nut allergy, to one specific type of nut. pine nuts. if i go to a place and they have pesto on the menu, or use it on a sandwich, I dont eat there. I've learned the hard way. The knife they use to spread it on a sandwich needs to be more then just wiped off, otherwise i'm going into anaphalytic shock. not worth it.

Unfortunately, according to most of this thread you're the problem here. You and your politically correct special needs. Must you always ruin it for everyone?

:closedeye

I dated a girl for five or six years that was so asthmatic that she'd end up in the ER once or twice a year. It was often due to triggers such as smoke or cologne/perfume. At least we know that it was her fault for impinging on the rights of others. Whew.

[rearviewmirror]

Unfortunately, according to most of this thread you're the problem here. You and your politically correct special needs. Must you always ruin it for everyone?

:closedeye
no i'm not! i dont expect the place to take it off the menu, i just go somewhere else!

[TonyH]

no i'm not! i dont expect the place to take it off the menu, i just go somewhere else!

But what about everyone else with you?! Now they have to go somewhere else, too! Inconsiderate, I tell you. :001_tt2:

[markewallace]

I am insensitive to the minority, the key word here being minority.

Insensitive to minorities. Check.

- Mark

[global_dev]

I have a VERY serious nut allergy, to one specific type of nut. pine nuts. if i go to a place and they have pesto on the menu, or use it on a sandwich, I dont eat there. I've learned the hard way. The knife they use to spread it on a sandwich needs to be more then just wiped off, otherwise i'm going into anaphalytic shock. not worth it.

my daughter has the same allergy… only pine nuts.. odd

if inhaling nut dust or eating remnants of peanuts is gonna cause someone to go the hospital, if a school or restaurant avoids serving nuts, i can adjust…

deodorant though? was this a Fragrance Anonymous meeting?

[shaveitoff]

You say you are not insensitive to the minority in the OP, but that's basically what you are. If someone is allergic to cologne or perfume what are they supposed to do? Stay at home? Not go to meetings at work? How difficult is it not to wear cologne? I'm not allergic to cologne, but whenever I smell it on someone it makes me think of the 1980s and all the dudes who used to wear stuff like Polo. The last person I know who regularly wore cologne was back in the 1990s. He seemed to think that it was a great substitute for a shower. He wore this sickly sweet smelling stuff. Unfortunately I took over his office at work. It took about 6 months for the smell to subside in that room.

[Walter Sobchak]

If you're wearing a scent, it should be for yourself and those who you're getting close enough to kiss. If it wafts beyond a 'kissing' radius it's too much.

This isn't all about a "minority" of the population who might have sensitivity issues, although they DO deserve consideration. I don't want to smell the person next to me no matter how good they think they smell.

It's good policy to keep your stink to yourself, just as it's good policy to keep your hands to yourself.

[kg0mz]

If a person with a fragrance intolerance says to me "I am becoming ill because of your aftershave" then I will apologize and move away. If a person doesn't like my aftershave I will say "sorry" and move away. However, if someone says I should not wear aftershave because there is a possibility that I might offend someone or make someone ill I say...We-e-e-ell...la-de-freakin'-da!

As a rule, I decline invitations that include the admonition about fragrances. I would not actually say..."We-e-e-ell...la-de-freakin'-da!"...to those biddies and dorks at a meeting. I would just think...biddies and dorks...We-e-e-ell...la-de-freakin'-da! Given an opportunity to send a check to help fund research into finding a cure for fragrance intolerance...I'll contribute. It is not the sufferer or even the biddies and dorks that don't approve that grate on me. It is the person telling me how to live my life.

[shaveitoff]

Just wear whatever you want and if anyone calls you on it (very good chance they wont), say "nah I'm not wearing anything". What are they gonna do? Search your home and grab skin samples off your body? You win.

Could also say "that's my soap". Nothing they can say/do about it.

I don't worry much about these things.

If you really want to advise people on how to go through life without taking the needs of others into consideration (i.e. how to be selfish) you aren't really doing much of a job.The next memo will add strong smelling soap to the list.

[TonyH]

You guys smell something in here?

[Dalejr]

Most allergys won't kill you they'll just make you a little sick.

[TonyH]

Well, as long as we're only sickening people - it isn't like we're killing them.

[rearviewmirror]

But what about everyone else with you?! Now they have to go somewhere else, too! Inconsiderate, I tell you. :001_tt2:
ha! it's actually happend MANY times, and I always just let them stay and go pick up a sub or something.

[rearviewmirror]

Most allergys won't kill you they'll just make you a little sick.
mine will kill me. throat closes. not fun.

[markewallace]

If a person with a fragrance intolerance says to me "I am becoming ill because of your aftershave" then I will apologize and move away. If a person doesn't like my aftershave I will say "sorry" and move away. However, if someone says I should not wear aftershave because there is a possibility that I might offend someone or make someone ill I say...We-e-e-ell...la-de-freakin'-da!

As a rule, I decline invitations that include the admonition about fragrances. I would not actually say..."We-e-e-ell...la-de-freakin'-da!"...to those biddies and dorks at a meeting. I would just think...biddies and dorks...We-e-e-ell...la-de-freakin'-da! Given an opportunity to send a check to help fund research into finding a cure for fragrance intolerance...I'll contribute. It is not the sufferer or even the biddies and dorks that don't approve that grate on me. It is the person telling me how to live my life.

You still fail to see the other side. Can you not see that this is a polite consideration on behalf of the person sending the invitation? They're giving you the heads-up that, while you're welcome at the event (which is why you're invited in the first place), there will probably/certainly be people there that have an issue with fragrances. They're giving you the chance to not come to the event and *then* find out (when it's too late) that your fragrance bothers others.

I see the inviter as being gracious and considerate (to both you and the other invitees) by giving you this heads-up. You see the person as a dork or biddy who is (c'mon, really???) telling you how to run your life.

- Mark

[Dalejr]

mine will kill me. throat closes. not fun.

I know the feeling, I have acute asthma.

[htownmmm]

You guys smell something in here?

That would be my Eau de Collective......



marty

[Sapian]

I have been to many ER rooms and doctor offices that have signs like that and I completely understand. I've had to look after my mom on and off for the past year and when she gets really nauseous or has a really big headache, the smell of one of my fragrances (or anyone else's) just makes her feel twice as bad. I also suffered from headaches growing up and, while I don't have the greatest sense of smell, too much fragrance made my headache spike.

If I have to run my mom into the ER unexpectedly, I run to the bathroom and try to scrub off as much of my cologne as possible. I think everyone should. Everyone else's health comes before you liking how you smell. The OP's original post sounds selfish and insensitive, I'm sorry. Why would you put someone else through literally suffering just to smell "good"? There is a time and place for everything. Fragrances don't belong in places like that. If they have a sign like that, it's there for a reason.

[KarlMaldensNose]

Wearing fragrance is a very real and (should be) conscious decision to act upon someone else's body. You're tacitly telling them that they're gonna breath into their nose and lungs what you want them to. It's a decision that ought not to be taken thoughtlessly or for granted. Failure to see and accept this simple fact is not only selfish but potentially dangerous (see allergies).

Yeah, it sucks for us fragrance lovers, but being a responsible adult/citizen/employee/employer/etc. requires that we recognize this. The way I see it, there are only two reasons for someone not to. They are either an adolescent/teenager or a sociopath to some varying degree. Sounds overly dramatic, I know, but how else can you explain someone who disregards the welfare, or at least comfort, of others for the sole purpose of just getting what they want?

Okay, fine, I'll concede that one can simply be selfish and not necessarily sociopathic. But I think the difference lurks at the time and place of recognizing one's impact on others and consciously deciding to disregard it.

[Dennard]

I know the feeling, I have acute asthma.

My mom does, also. I love to wear fragrances, but I can't wear anything more than aftershave around her or it sends her to the hospital. If any readers of this thread have never thought about it before, please let this discussion give you pause to consider the health and well-being of others as related to breathing and fragrances.

[Oblique Human]

We-e-e-ell...la-de-freakin'-da!

Amen to that. People who have allergic reactions to fragrances are obviously an exception, but people who are just olfactorily douches, Don't you feel we are coming full circle with kowtowing to these absurd sensibilities of people. Not liking someone's smell... Tomorrow it will be hair dye or someone's BMI or BMW even. If people that sensitive can't empathize with someone else's likes or dislikes, then they don't deserve any sympathy in kind. Remember, serial killers, Nazis and the Al Quaida are all a rather sensitive minority as well.

[TonyH]

Amen to that. Don't you feel we are coming full circle with kowtowing to these absurd sensibilities of people. Not liking someone's smell... Tomorrow it will be hair dye or someone's BMI or BMW even. If people that sensitive can't empathize with someone else's likes or dislikes, then they don't deserve any sympathy in kind. Remember, serial killers, Nazis and the Al Quaida are all a rather sensitive minority as well.

Well, comparing asthmatics and allergy sensitive folks to Nazis and Al Quaida makes perfect sense to me.

:out:

[rajagra]

They're giving you the heads-up that, while you're welcome at the event (which is why you're invited in the first place), there will probably/certainly be people there that have an issue with fragrances.

But is that the case? Or is it just someone with attitude making a blanket decision to ban fragrances in meetings, using the justification that someone *might* have a problem with it?
Where does it stop?

Maybe we should call this fragrancism. Let's see how HR deals with this discrimination against normal people going about their own personal business.

Honestly, this clearly isn't about people keeling over at the whiff of a scent. It's about someone not liking overpowering scent and thinking it's their right to impose their standards on other people.

P.S. Nobody else commenting on deodorants being banned? They aren't all scented.

[Oblique Human]

Well, comparing asthmatics and allergy sensitive folks to Nazis and Al Quaida makes perfect sense to me.

Of-course it won't make perfect sense when you quote so fastidiously. I also wrote:


People who have allergic reactions to fragrances are obviously an exception

[johnnyxxl]

I want to wear fragrance i will wear it tough. If someone is allergic to a fragrance and is in public they should plan accordingly for said outting.

[TonyH]

Of-course it won't make perfect sense when you quote so fastidiously. I also wrote:

Of course it doesn't make sense when I quote exactly what you said?!

Goodness me. I should have misquoted you to begin with. How silly.

Either way, Nazis and Al Quaida have no place in a discussion that's ultimately only about considerate behavior and simple manners. I swear, some of you guys would get invited to a dinner that specifies a non-meat dish and you'd intentionally show up with a rack of ribs. 'Cause this is 'murca, and I gots rights!

[Mischka]

A ban on wearing deodorant is outright bizarre. I suppose the author of such a memo could be one of those weirdos with a "man-smells" fetish, or something along those lines. :ohmy:

[Featherweight]

You guys smell something in here?

I was just thinking the same thing.

My take: I can understand a workplace requesting people not wear perfume/cologne in a specific meeting. A meeting is a temporary situation in which people are in close quarters with each other, and therefore anyone who wants to wear cologne can wear it after the meeting is over.

I CAN NOT understand the request to abstain from using deodorant prior to a meeting. This makes absolutely no sense. Sorry, but that's invasive of my personal grooming habits and hygienic needs. If I use an unscented deodorant (which I do), I see no issue with that and fail to see how it would effect anyone else in the room. Deodorant is more of a necessity than cologne, and therefore should not be restricted. Even a scented deodorant should not be restricted. Imagine a world in which people had to abstain from using deodorant? Pretty soon the opposite request would be made in workplaces - "please apply deodorant prior to attending this meeting. thank you."

As for the "sensitivity to the minority" issue . . . I hate to be this way and risk offending someone, but unless you're dealing with some sort of fragrance abuser - i.e. a colleague or friend who literally bathes in his or her favorite scent - then your supposed allergy to fragrance is not my concern. I've actually worn fragrances that I am allergic to, and although I've had my sinuses close a bit and maybe sneezed a few extra times, after an hour or so I forget I even have this reaction. If my reaction to this allergy is so mild and I'm the one actually wearing it, imagine how virtually nonexistent the allergic reaction would be to someone across the room. Sorry, but I'm not buying that someone else's perfume will throw an allergic person into anaphylaxis.

I have heard of people being so allergic to something that it literally kills them upon smelling it. This once happened to a woman who was allergic to a certain type of fish. The waiter passed her table, and she died immediately. This was an instance of the fish being a certain rare species, and of the woman being entirely unaware of her allergy. She only had one chance to survive it and learn the lesson to avoid the fish, and unfortunately she did not survive it when the encounter finally occurred.

Fragrance allergy is different. Chemicals used in fragrances are often used all over the cosmetic universe, sometimes in products like detergent, toothpaste, and soap.If one is to have a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction to any of these chemicals, this discovery would be made within the span of time of this allergy (the body sometimes resets its reactions every seven-eight years). If it were so severe as to cause asthmatic responses, then doctors would have to isolate the causation and make it known to the patient to explicitly avoid this allergen. If the allergen is a common chemical, the patient would either need medication to counteract the reaction, or would have to avoid being out in public altogether. This limits the need for other people to use caution with their body products.

If you have an allergy to a fragrance chemical like I do, and its not something that causes anything more than a few sniffles, then a small courtesy might be for someone else to tone down the usage of a product that contains this allergen. However, I have no right to ask this person to eliminate it from use altogether, just because it causes me to sneeze once every ten minutes. Besides, the chances I'll be sent into a small sneezing episode are slim if I'm able to wear this chemical myself, which I am. This is an allergy, but it's not extreme, and there's no reason to be afraid of it. Allergies are cases of extremes - the most minor cases are had by people who often don't even realize they're allergic to something until they notice a pattern in their reactions. The most extreme are cases where people can't even venture outside their homes. People between these polarities experience varying degrees of physical discomfort, usually none of it life-threatening, and most of it just a minor nuisance. I've been wearing fragrances my whole life, in every conceivable social, work, and school situation. I have yet to encounter anyone who became ill from what I was wearing. The notion that I'll avoid wearing fragrance in the likelihood that I will encounter this rare allergic case is unrealistic. The notion that a severe allergic case will avoid straying into social settings full of people like me is not unrealistic. To me, this is the correct social dichotomy.




...

[daverasi]

I was reluctant to weigh in nonetheless this thread clearly touched a nerve (and an olfactory one at that)! I think there is a middle ground...or there should be. Clearly if someone is inviting others to an event and mentions that fragrances of any sort are not permitted then you either respect their rule or not attend.

At the same time we have gotten a bit out of hand with our rules insofar as allowing a statistically insignificant minority dictate what we should nor should not wear. Much of this can be solved by using common sense. Don't over apply, know your surroundings and at least be understanding to those who share your space. Having an approach akin to not caring at all the effect you'll have on others is just rude...but if that's how you want to roll then that's your decision.

BTW - IMO comparing those that want to ban scents to fascists and/or terrorists is just silly and weakens an argument.

Lastly this thread has crossed over what we typically see in the fragrance forum...I'd have no issues if the mods locked, deleted or moved this thread.

[TonyH]

Fragrance allergy is different. Chemicals used in fragrances are often used all over the cosmetic universe, sometimes in products like detergent, toothpaste, and soap.If one is to have a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction to any of these chemicals, this discovery would be made within the span of time of this allergy (the body sometimes resets its reactions every seven-eight years). If it were so severe as to cause asthmatic responses, then doctors would have to isolate the causation and make it known to the patient to explicitly avoid this allergen. If the allergen is a common chemical, the patient would either need medication to counteract the reaction, or would have to avoid being out in public altogether. This limits the need for other people to use caution with their body products...


Totally false. Inhaling a substance and rubbing something on your skin are two vastly different methods of delivery. I can rub an entire bottle of cologne on my hands with no ill effects. Start taking hits from the atomizer and the game changes. Drinking it would cause a whole new set of issues. The delivery of the chemicals in question absolutely makes a difference.

I'm curious to see an actual communication from a workplace banning deodorant.

[Oblique Human]

Of course it doesn't make sense when I quote exactly what you said?!

You quoted me out Of context!!! Are you aware of the rules of an even informal discussion? And don't bother worrying about the ethics of quotes when it comes to me, I really couldn't care less how you, Sir, in particular, perceive my thoughts.

[Mischka]

I'm curious to see an actual communication from a workplace banning deodorant.

Here you go. She got paid, too. Welcome to the world of litigious ridiculousness. http://m.digitaljournal.com/article/289081?doredir=0&noredir=1

[luvmysuper]

"Please be aware that people attending this meeting might be wearing perfume, cologne, aftershave or deodorant."












"And there's a better than fair chance that Frank will pass gas again"

[rajagra]

Here you go. She got paid, too. Welcome to the world of litigious ridiculousness. http://m.digitaljournal.com/article/289081?doredir=0&noredir=1

I note they didn't ban make up. That would be a logical inclusion in that list of items. But I'm sure that doing so would raise a stink.

[BingeAndPurge]

I was reluctant to weigh in nonetheless this thread clearly touched a nerve (and an olfactory one at that)! I think there is a middle ground...or there should be. Clearly if someone is inviting others to an event and mentions that fragrances of any sort are not permitted then you either respect their rule or not attend.

At the same time we have gotten a bit out of hand with our rules insofar as allowing a statistically insignificant minority dictate what we should nor should not wear. Much of this can be solved by using common sense. Don't over apply, know your surroundings and at least be understanding to those who share your space. Having an approach akin to not caring at all the effect you'll have on others is just rude...but if that's how you want to roll then that's your decision.

BTW - IMO comparing those that want to ban scents to fascists and/or terrorists is just silly and weakens an argument.

Lastly this thread has crossed over what we typically see in the fragrance forum...I'd have no issues if the mods locked, deleted or moved this thread.

+1 to All of this, and especially the last line. I find this whole thread silly, and having nothing to do with the usual information that contributes or expands anyone's fragrance passion or hobby.

[daverasi]

...doing so would raise a stink.

isn't raising a stink (or not) what we're talking about?:001_tt2:

[Champion of Capua]

I get totally offended if I'm sitting next to you and you are NOT wearing deodorant.

But maybe I'm in the "minority"

[TonyH]

You quoted me out Of context!!! Are you aware of the rules of an even informal discussion? And don't bother worrying about the ethics of quotes when it comes to me, I really couldn't care less how you, Sir, in particular, perceive my thoughts.

I quoted you completely and exactly. You altered your post after the fact, which the timestamps show. I don't think "out of context" means what you think it means.

But carry on. It's your world, I'm just living in it.

[kg0mz]

...probably or certainly will be people attending who have issues with fragrances...

If by "issues" you mean people with medical "issues", then "probably or certainly" is, well, more accurately "plausible". If by "issues" you mean moral "issues", then it is more likely someone with "issues" may attend. My grandmother used to say of busy bodies like that, they should mind their own beeswax. My great uncle would say judge not least ye be judged.

I see your point, but I think really think a better approach is the one proposed by luvmysuper.

Should a bakery stop producing bread because someone might have issues with the aroma?

[mdove47]

Aroma oriented. I was eating at our local Mickey D's. The door opened and suddenly the place just reeked of old woman cologne. Everyone there turned and looked. The aroma was so strong.... She came and sat in the booth right behind me......it was so strong it made me sick, along with all the folks sitting along the wall. I got up, thanked her for ruining my meal, and the meals of all along the wall. I moved to another section of the resturant, as did all who were able to do so. Several other who moved commented to her, and to me. She looked at me and mouthed a not very nice word. I said the same back to her. I said enough is enough, picked up my meal and took it to her. I told her I couldn't eat it, and hoped she could. I walked out. A couple of the other folks got up and left too. My thought, if you want to were a frag. ok...make sure the whole building cannot smell it. To bathe in it, and go out reeking is rude and inconsiderate.

[Matt555]

Aroma oriented. I was eating at our local Mickey D's. The door opened and suddenly the place just reeked of old woman cologne. Everyone there turned and looked. The aroma was so strong.... She came and sat in the booth right behind me......it was so strong it made me sick, along with all the folks sitting along the wall. I got up, thanked her for ruining my meal, and the meals of all along the wall. I moved to another section of the resturant, as did all who were able to do so. Several other who moved commented to her, and to me. She looked at me and mouthed a not very nice word. I said the same back to her. I said enough is enough, picked up my meal and took it to her. I told her I couldn't eat it, and hoped she could. I walked out. A couple of the other folks got up and left too. My thought, if you want to were a frag. ok...make sure the whole building cannot smell it. To bathe in it, and go out reeking is rude and inconsiderate.

****....a perfume that overpowered the smell of McDonald's? Whatever she was wearing should be weaponized by the US military.

[maxman]

Ive never listened to my workplaces scent free policy. I've never had a problem. That tells me that I apply just the perfect amount. So I guess the scent free policy is telling me how awesome I am. Yay me!!

[rajagra]

To bathe in it, and go out reeking is rude and inconsiderate.
Or maybe she was simply unaware she had overdone it. If she was an old lady, maybe she had poor sense of smell. Maybe she had other 'old lady' problems that made the perfume a good idea. Maybe she just had a bottle of perfume break in her bag. Maybe she was innocently walking through a shop when one of those sales assistants attacked her with a spray.

Maybe if all those people hadn't spoken to her rudely and given her dirty looks she wouldn't have felt hurt and lashed out.

Maybe I'd have spoken to her and walked out too, but with a bit more tact, I would hope.

[mdove47]

rajagra, point taken. When it happens a second and third time by the same person......as it did.......

[Schad]

Or maybe she was simply unaware she had overdone it. If she was an old lady, maybe she had poor sense of smell. Maybe she had other 'old lady' problems that made the perfume a good idea. Maybe she just had a bottle of perfume break in her bag. Maybe she was innocently walking through a shop when one of those sales assistants attacked her with a spray.

Maybe if all those people hadn't spoken to her rudely and given her dirty looks she wouldn't have felt hurt and lashed out.

Maybe I'd have spoken to her and walked out too, but with a bit more tact, I would hope.

Very well stated.

[Taylor of Bank Street]

A message regarding a 'scent free workplace' was sent out at my work recently. Someone apparently has an issue with strong scents in my group. Feel sorry for the people that have to try to manage this. It's a minefield. Up here, it looks like the basic guidance is, 'reasonable accommodation to the extent that it does not cause anyone else undue hardship'. Clear as mud.

As others have mentioned, there's a world of difference between:
-having a genuine medical sensitivity / allergy
-not caring for scents in the workplace

At this point, and this is a qualifier, I have no intention of going through all my worldly possessions and throwing out any products that have scents: shampoos, toothpaste, colognes, soaps...

For my part, I'm going to try not to splash on buckets of Brut in the morning but I'm also not going to rearrange my own life, or at least not without some more specific information. It would be helpful if these types of allergy sensitivity included more specific information on what exactly the irritants were for the complaining parties. As it is, the majority is left scratching their head as to what is acceptable.

I may still not have a very educated nose, but I have an extremely sensitive one. I've smelled a piece of burning paper a block away (maybe the breeze was just right?) and used to play games with a colleague sitting in a cubicle near me as to the ingredients in a tea she was drinking or cream she was using. It used to blow her away that I could smell and identify it. All this to say, I put up with smells from other people in their food, or on their person every day that I don't care for. I also don't complain about it. Medical issue is one thing, whining is another.

[Oblique Human]

I quoted you completely and exactly. You altered your post after the fact, which the timestamps show. I don't think "out of context" means what you think it means.

Clutching at straws now, huh? My God, you would just make something up to prove your point, also called lying. The post was edited literally seconds after I posted it. How do you know I forgot a detail and put it in later. Not all of us are literary geniuses like your fastidious highness. You need to get out more, get some air away from flowers or festivities judging by your abhorrence for scent.


But carry on. It's your world, I'm just living in it.

And look up the meaning of fastidious in that old Webster while you're at it.

[eastomjac]

since when in a democracy does a minority rule?

[Dewaine]

The wonder of democracy is the entire disregard for the minority. The majority always wins.

[luvmysuper]

Guys, let's take any personal conflicts out of this thread.It takes two to tango.If you find you have a disagreement with an individual, post tennis won't solve it...


..227343

[eastomjac]

sorry phil.i was just posting a random comment.

[Go West Young Man]

First off, you all know full well that "don't wear deodorant to this meeting" means "scented deodorant", not "come in stinking of BO".
Let's not make up arguments for the sake of it, huh?

Secondly, what policy would YOU set? Presuming a large group of people working together, some kind of rule needs to be in place. Once you get beyond a handful of people in a department you can't go by the 'why can't we all get along' principle, you need to spell out rules for acceptable behaviour. Deciding WHERE to draw the line is a hard task, but a line does need drawing somewhere or else you'll end up with constant conflict.

[Vickers]

No deodorant? Meeting invitation declined.

[rajagra]

Secondly, what policy would YOU set?

I would say something diplomatic in the invite, like "please avoid using too much scent before the meeting, as the room can get stuffy."

[Schad]

Maybe it should become part of the hiring policy.
"Seeking attorney to join 5-partner practice in Chicago, IL. Requirements: Illinois and DC licenses, minimum 5 years in practice, experience in family law, use of unscented deodorant only".

[Evbo]

I'm just amazed that a thread like this has erupted outside of the barbershop. It's been a long time since I've encountered such animosity in a specific thread, let alone in the fragrance forum! Then again, I tend to stay away from the barbershop. :wink:

After reading thru this somewhat-contentious thread, I have to say that imho the overall tone was set from the outset by the OP. Dude -- a little diplomacy goes a long way. You could've stated your opinion -- even ranted about it -- in a much lower-key way, which would've helped to moderate everyone else's responses.

Just my opinion & observation. Carry on. But please all, try to play nice. There are children sleeping next door. :001_tongu

[Schad]

Agree w/ evbo. It was kind of like a troll-bait type post. I personally enjoy these threads once in a while. Gets the blood boiling and as long as things stay respectful it's a good thing!

Moderation is the key to everything and I dont mean forum moderation. I mean moderation in how much perfume one wears in public. I rarely go more than 2 sprays at work, and with some scents I will only go one (potent monsters like Aventus). If I go more than 2, it's when I know it's a skin scent and will not project too loudly (Windsor 2010, Bois Des Iles).

On the other hand if you go to a club then I just DEAL WITH IT. If I'm at a club (which I don't go to BTW), I expect 20-somethings to do 12 sprays of 1 million and I will not complain. That's standard in that setting.

[mdevine]

Aroma oriented. I was eating at our local Mickey D's. The door opened and suddenly the place just reeked of old woman cologne. Everyone there turned and looked. The aroma was so strong.... She came and sat in the booth right behind me......it was so strong it made me sick, along with all the folks sitting along the wall. I got up, thanked her for ruining my meal, and the meals of all along the wall. I moved to another section of the resturant, as did all who were able to do so. Several other who moved commented to her, and to me. She looked at me and mouthed a not very nice word. I said the same back to her. I said enough is enough, picked up my meal and took it to her. I told her I couldn't eat it, and hoped she could. I walked out. A couple of the other folks got up and left too. My thought, if you want to were a frag. ok...make sure the whole building cannot smell it. To bathe in it, and go out reeking is rude and inconsiderate.

As a physician, I am acutely aware of the problems that many little old ladies have. Maybe you are unaware that incontinence is a big issue in this age group. I find many of them try to compensate by using, at times, excessive amounts of fragrance. I don't know if this was the case with this woman, but I hope you considered this before treating a little old lady this way. In any case, if I were eating there, I would have been more offended by cruelty to an old woman than by whatever her scent issues were.

[The Nid Hog]

Aroma oriented. I was eating at our local Mickey D's. The door opened and suddenly the place just reeked of old woman cologne. Everyone there turned and looked. The aroma was so strong.... She came and sat in the booth right behind me......it was so strong it made me sick, along with all the folks sitting along the wall. I got up, thanked her for ruining my meal, and the meals of all along the wall. I moved to another section of the resturant, as did all who were able to do so. Several other who moved commented to her, and to me. She looked at me and mouthed a not very nice word. I said the same back to her. I said enough is enough, picked up my meal and took it to her. I told her I couldn't eat it, and hoped she could. I walked out. A couple of the other folks got up and left too. My thought, if you want to were a frag. ok...make sure the whole building cannot smell it. To bathe in it, and go out reeking is rude and inconsiderate.

If I had the choice between leaving a McDonald's because somebody was wearing too much perfume or acting like a punk to an old lady, I hope I wouldn't have to think twice about the decision. Not a shining moment for anybody.

[mmack66]

I just don't understand why nowadays, everyone in the room has to accomodate one person instead of the one person realizing there may be an issue and planning accordingly. I feel the same way about schools and daycares that are forced to be nut/egg/random-food free because 1 of the 300 kids as an allergy.

I agree. Why does that one person have to wear so much cologne?

[rajagra]

And the moral is: that sensitivity to people's needs doesn't come from issuing rules or from being sent on the company's sensitivity training course. It comes from awareness and understanding. (And respect.)

I remember in my early 20's I once went to the Post Office, and there was a monster queue, at least 40 people in front of me. After waiting a while an elderly lady from somewhere behind me walked forward and went straight to the next free cashier. Lots of people were clearly surprised by this. I was angry, as I was in a real rush. I did nothing because I was so taken aback. I was angry at myself for not confronting her.

But looking back at that incident, I can now see there may have been a reason for her action other than rudeness and selfishness. If I had confronted her, it would be one of those things I'd look back at and cringe at my stupidity.

Funny what things stick in your head, isn't it.

[Topgumby]

If I had the choice between leaving a McDonald's because somebody was wearing too much perfume or acting like a punk to an old lady, I hope I wouldn't have to think twice about the decision. Not a shining moment for anybody.

When my mother was dying of cancer, I noticed a few times when she hit the perfume pretty hard. I always assumed her sense of smell was out of whack, but the good Doctor's post may point to another reason.

I wonder if anybody ever chewed her out for it? She would have been mortified, I'm sure.

[Schad]

Be respectful of others.

End of thread

[Masterkova]

since when in a democracy does a minority rule?

In the U.S., 2000 to 2004.

[Go West Young Man]

I would say something diplomatic in the invite, like "please avoid using too much scent before the meeting, as the room can get stuffy."


And the moral is: that sensitivity to people's needs doesn't come from issuing rules or from being sent on the company's sensitivity training course. It comes from awareness and understanding. (And respect.)



The problem with quote #1 is that everyone has a different opinion of what too much is, and at some point you're going to have to mediate between parties who are all being unreasonable. As a manager, at some point you throw your hands up and give in.

Point #2 is great in principle, but human beings can be pretty pigheaded when challenged (cf. this thread!) so in large organizations you have to clearly delineate rules that apply to everyone.

[rickcharles606]

Aroma oriented. I was eating at our local Mickey D's. The door opened and suddenly the place just reeked of old woman cologne. Everyone there turned and looked. The aroma was so strong.... She came and sat in the booth right behind me......it was so strong it made me sick, along with all the folks sitting along the wall. I got up, thanked her for ruining my meal, and the meals of all along the wall. I moved to another section of the resturant, as did all who were able to do so. Several other who moved commented to her, and to me. She looked at me and mouthed a not very nice word. I said the same back to her. I said enough is enough, picked up my meal and took it to her. I told her I couldn't eat it, and hoped she could. I walked out. A couple of the other folks got up and left too. My thought, if you want to were a frag. ok...make sure the whole building cannot smell it. To bathe in it, and go out reeking is rude and inconsiderate.

You shouldn't be eating McDonald's anyway, lol. She extended your life by preventing you from putting that "food" in your body ;-) Oh, and anyone that would intentionally belittle or embarrass a little old woman, is far from gentlemanly.

[Champion of Capua]

Aroma oriented. I was eating at our local Mickey D's. The door opened and suddenly the place just reeked of old woman cologne. Everyone there turned and looked. The aroma was so strong.... She came and sat in the booth right behind me......it was so strong it made me sick, along with all the folks sitting along the wall. I got up, thanked her for ruining my meal, and the meals of all along the wall. I moved to another section of the resturant, as did all who were able to do so. Several other who moved commented to her, and to me. She looked at me and mouthed a not very nice word. I said the same back to her. I said enough is enough, picked up my meal and took it to her. I told her I couldn't eat it, and hoped she could. I walked out. A couple of the other folks got up and left too. My thought, if you want to were a frag. ok...make sure the whole building cannot smell it. To bathe in it, and go out reeking is rude and inconsiderate.

Wow, look at the big man tough talking a woman in a restaurant. Good for you tough guy.

[rickcharles606]

An employer is approached by a few of his/her employees, they explain that they don't care for the excessive wearing of fragrance in the office, and especially to meetings. If I'm the employer (and I am), I ask the few if they have a "sensitivity" or "allergy"? If they say allergy, I then ask a follow up question, what exactly are you allergic to in a fragrance that set's off your symptoms? I also, ask them to provide medical documentation outlining their condition, and then we'd find an alternate way for THEM to attend the meeting, or even work. I'd try to find a solution for the few, not assert the will of the few on the many.

If in fact these employees provide the required medical documentation citing a valid medical condition, then I let them attend the meetings via phone or video conferencing. There are many options available to people who feel they cannot function in today's workplace.

Conversely, if I had an employee that was guilty of overdoing it in the fragrance department...I'd ask him/her to tone it down. Just like I'd ask someone who smelled of body odor to attend to their personal hygiene a little bit better (but only if it was chronic).

EDIT: Banning something that the majority of my employees want or enjoy doing, especially something this personal...seems counterproductive. Especially if doing it to appease the minority in the office place.

[Schad]

Let a playa play! And let a fraghead frag!

Agree w/ rc606 by the way. These situations can be handled best in a case-by-case basis since each situation/workplace/reasoning is different. A blanket policy on anything (just like always/never answers on a multiple choice test) is usually a bad way of going about things.

[tempeViking]

I like to wear a little cologne. That said, this conversation strikes me as being similar to riding with open pipes on a motorcycle at 2am, or talking on your a phone during a movie, or playing music so loud in a car that passengers for several cars around can spot the source (ok, sometimes it's because you can spot the vibrations on the trunk lid too).

Of course you can do it, it's your life. But not imposing a personal indulgence does demonstrate class and respect IMHO.

[BrookR1]

From a company perspective:

The problem was that you were creating a distraction in the workplace. You were wearing too much fragrance and made others around you uncomfortable. HR received a complaint. You were causing a distraction. It's in the best interest of the company to eliminate those distractions, so they created the "guy with too much cologne" rule. They included any and all substances (cologne and deodorant) that could potentially project a fragrance on the "do not wear" list to cover their bases. Distraction eliminated, productivity enhanced. They could care less about possible allergies that some people experience. They are more concerned about people being productive.

They will do this for any distraction that arises during these meetings...the "too much breath mint" rule, the "lip smacking gum chewing rule", the "pencil tapping" rule, the "turn off your phone during meetings" rule, and my personal favorite, the "no farting" rule.

Sit there, be attentive, enthusiastically contribute your ideas, and don't cause distractions. That's what you're there for.

[Featherweight]

Totally false. Inhaling a substance and rubbing something on your skin are two vastly different methods of delivery. I can rub an entire bottle of cologne on my hands with no ill effects. Start taking hits from the atomizer and the game changes. Drinking it would cause a whole new set of issues. The delivery of the chemicals in question absolutely makes a difference.

I'm curious to see an actual communication from a workplace banning deodorant.

Actually, this is false. If you're severely allergic to something, the method of delivery does not matter at all. Whether you inhale it, touch it, or ingest it, the result will be the same. Doubt it? Consider something known to be toxic, like the Fugu blowfish. Consumption of its toxin leads to death. But preparation of the fish itself sometimes leads to death as well. This applies to commonly recognized toxins as well - Why do you think peanut butter is widely banned in schools across the nation? They're not afraid of the allergic kids eating it, because its understood that they won't. They're afraid of it being in the same room with the allergic kid, due to the likelihood of an allergic reaction by proximity.

There's no possible way that you can rub a cologne that you're allergic to on your hands and not have a reaction. If you're allergic to it, you definitely will have a reaction.

I think I'm allergic to this thread.




...

[mdove47]

Goodness, what a ruckus I raised. I am 64, and aroma sensitive. I was sneezing uncontrollably and eyes were watering. I do not wear any frags. Nowhere did I say it was a little old lady. Folks jumping to conclusions. The ind. wearing the old lady frag is younger than I am. I know members of her family and they have all told her to cut down on the amount of frag she wears, it makes them sick too. They have said she just laughs at them and sprays on more. What I thought is not what I told her.

[Blade Boy]

I just don't understand why nowadays, everyone in the room has to accomodate one person instead of the one person realizing there may be an issue and planning accordingly. I feel the same way about schools and daycares that are forced to be nut/egg/random-food free because 1 of the 300 kids as an allergy.
+1

[TonyH]

Actually, this is false. If you're severely allergic to something, the method of delivery does not matter at all. Whether you inhale it, touch it, or ingest it, the result will be the same. Doubt it? Consider something known to be toxic, like the Fugu blowfish. Consumption of its toxin leads to death. But preparation of the fish itself sometimes leads to death as well. This applies to commonly recognized toxins as well - Why do you think peanut butter is widely banned in schools across the nation? They're not afraid of the allergic kids eating it, because its understood that they won't. They're afraid of it being in the same room with the allergic kid, due to the likelihood of an allergic reaction by proximity.

There's no possible way that you can rub a cologne that you're allergic to on your hands and not have a reaction. If you're allergic to it, you definitely will have a reaction.

I think I'm allergic to this thread.




...

Except that we aren't talking about fugu, we're talking about fragrance.

Again, as a person with no allergies I can rub an entire bottle of perfume on my hands with no issues. If I inhaled the entire contents of that bottle, I would most certainly have a reaction. Asthma isn't an allergy, it a reactionary condition. Getting perfume on your skin will not necessarily cause a reaction, but breathing it most likely will. We're talking about apple and oranges.

[rickcharles606]

From a company perspective:

The problem was that you were creating a distraction in the workplace. You were wearing too much fragrance and made others around you uncomfortable. HR received a complaint. You were causing a distraction. It's in the best interest of the company to eliminate those distractions, so they created the "guy with too much cologne" rule. They included any and all substances (cologne and deodorant) that could potentially project a fragrance on the "do not wear" list to cover their bases. Distraction eliminated, productivity enhanced. They could care less about possible allergies that some people experience. They are more concerned about people being productive.

They will do this for any distraction that arises during these meetings...the "too much breath mint" rule, the "lip smacking gum chewing rule", the "pencil tapping" rule, the "turn off your phone during meetings" rule, and my personal favorite, the "no farting" rule.

Sit there, be attentive, enthusiastically contribute your ideas, and don't cause distractions. That's what you're there for.

I know of many companies that operate just like you described above. The problem is that I think the actual distraction would be asking everyone else in the company to stop doing something that is a personal choice and part of most people's daily hygiene,dressing,beautification (however you want to categorize it) ritual. I find that happy employees work better than unhappy employees, and I'd rather keep 98% of my employees happy, than 2% of them. I'd rather protect the synergy of a happy workplace for the majority.

Now, don't get me wrong...I do believe that as an employer I have an obligation to make the work place safe for everyone. That being said, I'd do what I could to accomodate the 2%, but not at the expense of the 98%. As I said in an earlier post tele-conferencing or tele-commuting are indeed options for the very few that are so sensitive that they cannot cope with the "rigors" of an average workplace.

I find this thread and topic quite annoying, lol. It's affecting my mood today, so I'll leave you gentlemen to it...have a great Sunday afternoon ;-)

[Schad]

Well la de da!!!!! Lol

[Shmu]

I just don't understand why nowadays, everyone in the room has to accomodate one person instead of the one person realizing there may be an issue and planning accordingly. I feel the same way about schools and daycares that are forced to be nut/egg/random-food free because 1 of the 300 kids as an allergy.

You're totally right! I mean, really! If someone has an allergy, it is their fault. In fact, it's probably just God's way of punishing them for their sins. Frankly, I can't believe that a person would put their right to live before my right to bring a peanut butter sandwich to school. It's really just selfish...



Seriously though, does anyone honestly believe that it's worth putting someone's life at risk to avoid the minor inconvenience of having to bring in a different kind of sandwich to school?
Imagine that your child goes to school where "1 of the 300 kids has an allergy" to peanuts, but you decide to pack your kid a peanut butter sandwich because you think the rule is stupid. When your kid comes home that day, you find out that the kid with an allergy died because of the sandwich you packed. What would your reaction be? I sincerely hope that no one's reaction would be: "Well, that one person should have realized that there may be an issue and they should have planned accordingly, so it's his/her own fault that they died."

Since birth, I have been allergic to wheat, oat, barley, rye, fish, shellfish, dairy, and eggs (thankfully none of these are life-threatening). I have to tell you, my parents and I have had to make countless sacrifices because of my allergies. Imagine trying to explain to your kid why he can't eat his friend's birthday cake, or why he can't eat ice cream with his friends after the game. Before I go anywhere, I have to determine if I will be able to eat there, or if I have to bring my own food. It is a gigantic PITA.
Now, it is certainly not the worst health issue out there. It is manageable, and (as of now) it is not life-threatening. All I'm trying to say is that people with allergies already realize that they may be an issue and plan accordingly, and so if we have the option to make a minor accommodation that would make their lives easier, we should jump at the chance.

[jakespoppy]

I've been swamped at work lately, and am just now reading this thread. It's been interesting, as well as disappointing. Differences of opinion have been shared, which happens frequently on the fragrance forum, as differences of opinion on how we feel about fragrances, which ones we like and don't, will naturally vary from person to person. But we usually do that without bringing personal jabs at each other into the discussion. I'm inclined to leave this thread open, but I'm not inclined to want to see any more discussion that includes negative comments to another member, any ungentlemanly posts or posts that seem to promote or condone ungentlemanly behavior. If you are not sure whether or not something that you are about to post fits in that category, then don't post it.

As I said, I'll leave the thread open for now, although I think we've done all we can to establish that we have irreconcilable differences of opinion about:

- how much we should consider others persons' preferences regarding how much the fragrance we wear projects into their personal space, and
- how much control an employer or any other entity should have in regulating how much fragrance we can wear in that entity's space, and
- how much consideration we should give to any personal choice or health issues others may have with the amount of fragrance we wear, and
- how or even if we should ask others to not wear so much fragrance when they are in close enough proximity to us for their fragrance to be in our personal space.

I don't think we are going to change each others opinions here, and I have a hard time thinking that there is anything left to add to this thread that will be considered constructive and beneficial to the forum that is left to be added. So please choose carefully what you choose to add, and choose even more carefully how you say it.

[luvmysuper]

I don't have any philosophical issue with the ideal you are proposing. I believe with all my heart and soul that we should always strive to think of others.

Having said that, I have to correct your last sentence. To be an afflicted minority and make a statement as a member of the opposing majority doesn't tell the entire story.


if YOU have the option to make a minor accomodation that would make MY life easier, YOU should jump at the chance.

Accomodation works both ways.
Those who do not suffer from exposure to these substances must try to minimize their impact on others wherever and whenever possible.
Those who do suffer from exposure to these substances must try to minimize their impact on others wherever and whenever possible.

These goofy workplace rules (and the lawsuits discussed previously) arise precisely because both groups do not make every effort to adhere to guidelines of mutual respect necessary to live and work with a cross section of society.

If neither side is willing to make adjustments for the other, silly rules are promulgated which ultimately make no one happy.

[TonyH]

These goofy workplace rules (and the lawsuits discussed previously) arise precisely because both groups do not make every effort to adhere to guidelines of mutual respect necessary to live and work with a cross section of society.

If neither side is willing to make adjustments for the other, silly rules are promulgated which ultimately make no one happy.

Really well said. Give and take doesn't work if either side operates on a "take and take" mentality.

[bkfist]

Amen to that. People who have allergic reactions to fragrances are obviously an exception, but people who are just olfactorily douches, Don't you feel we are coming full circle with kowtowing to these absurd sensibilities of people. Not liking someone's smell... Tomorrow it will be hair dye or someone's BMI or BMW even. If people that sensitive can't empathize with someone else's likes or dislikes, then they don't deserve any sympathy in kind. Remember, serial killers, Nazis and the Al Quaida are all a rather sensitive minority as well.

Ahh, but what if the person sitting next to you had not bathed or brushed their teeth in a month? What if their B.O. made a pig farm smell like an ocean breeze wafting over a field of lavender, and their breath could knock a buzzard off a sh** wagon?

If someone came into a meeting (wouldn't matter to me if they were on the other side of a 20 ft room) wearing a "light" spray of A-Men (*IS* there such a thing as a LIGHT spray of A-Men) I would be highly, highly offended (well, my olfactory sense would be, I wouldn't consider the person to have been *trying* to interpret the Chernobyl nuclear melt-down disater as an olfactory experience ...) and would be unable to physically remain in that room.

Yes, most of us reading this thread would recognize that something like A-Men, the Veg, or ELdO's Secretions Magnifiques could be highly nauseating to other people, and hopefully would choose NOT to wear such a fragrance to a meeting where you would be in close proximity to others, just as I would *hope* a person who is planning on attending a meeting would make sure that they have bathed in recent memory and brushed their teeth at some point since they graduated elementary school, however some people LOVE the smell of these perfumes and might not realize that A-Men could be so horribly obnoxious to some people. (OK, ANYONE who is wearing Secretions Magnifiques *will* know that it is likely to offend some others in the room.... S.M isn't something that someone inadvertently picks up at WalMart...) (disclaimer, I happen to LIKE S.M. but that doesn't mean someone else is going to like the smell of it on me. Same to those who think "the Veg has chosen me" - no, YOU like it, I'm sure if I could smell you up-close, you'd still smell like a cat pissed on your clothes, just as if you were up close to me while wearing S.M. I'd still smell like I had just left an orgy where we had sacrificed a virgin and anointed ourselves in the blood.)

The point is, not *everyone* knows what fragrance may or may not be appropriate for a given situation, and how is one to express to a group of people not to wear "potentially vile" fragrances, and who is to determine what is "potentially vile"?

There are also those who apply a fragrance in a manner where they, and only they are enjoying the fragrance, and those who feel they are doing the world a favor by sharing that fragrance with everyone who is within a 10 ft radius. At the same time, there are a LOT of people who don't have a clue as to how far their scent cloud is emanating from their person.

Yes, the "no deodorant" clause is probably going over-board... As I doubt anyone is going to be more offended at the scent of the deodorant than the scent of B.O., or "deadly allergic" to the generic scents put into deodorants, but where do you draw the line? Is Axe a deodorant or a perfume/cologne? I think if you asked the general public this, you wouldn't get a 100% agreement on the answer.

It's just far easier to "blanket" the whole scent issue.

[BrookR1]

Another way to look at it would be that only 2% of the employees (those that wear frags) are causing the problem and the rule would only affect them and the other 98% would not be affected. It's also difficult to know how many people feel the same way as those who spoke up. Most likely there are more people who feel the same way. Until these people speak up, it's difficult to understand the true impact of the problem.


That being said, I'd do what I could to accomodate the 2%, but not at the expense of the 98%.

[nole1]

You're totally right! I mean, really! If someone has an allergy, it is their fault. In fact, it's probably just God's way of punishing them for their sins. Frankly, I can't believe that a person would put their right to live before my right to bring a peanut butter sandwich to school. It's really just selfish...


I was simply commenting on everything should work both ways. In my first sentence I purposefully didn't specify which side should accommodate for the greater good of the group. IMO it doesn't matter if I was the one with an allergy, wearing too much cologne, or has too much BO. If my actions/requirements affect the group I should try to figure out a way to have the least impact possible.


If neither side is willing to make adjustments for the other, silly rules are promulgated which ultimately make no one happy.

Phil summed it up best so I'll now withdraw from this thread. Hope everyone had a great weekend

[Featherweight]

Except that we aren't talking about fugu, we're talking about fragrance.

Again, as a person with no allergies I can rub an entire bottle of perfume on my hands with no issues. If I inhaled the entire contents of that bottle, I would most certainly have a reaction. Asthma isn't an allergy, it a reactionary condition. Getting perfume on your skin will not necessarily cause a reaction, but breathing it most likely will. We're talking about apple and oranges.

Respectfully disagree. Allergic reactions happen when a substance is perceived as a toxin by one's specific body chemistry. Some reactions are universal, and such things are rationally considered "toxic" to the public - i.e. fugu. My analogy here is in line with what we've been talking about.

You however are talking about having an asthmatic reaction to inhaling a chemical substance. This has nothing to do with allergy, and everything to do with the obvious - if you breath something that you're not supposed to be breathing, you're going to feel it adversely in the lungs and probably have difficulty. This is aspiration. Aspiration is a serious medical issue that can lead to death. This type of inhalation would effect everyone the exact same way, regardless of their allergy sensitivities.

I was not in any way addressing chemical aspiration. Not really sure why you're mentioning it here, but I agree with you that if you inhale vapors directly from an atomizer, you're going to get sick.




...

[rickcharles606]

Another way to look at it would be that only 2% of the employees (those that wear frags) are causing the problem and the rule would only affect them and the other 98% would not be affected. It's also difficult to know how many people feel the same way as those who spoke up. Most likely there are more people who feel the same way. Until these people speak up, it's difficult to understand the true impact of the problem.

It's like I said in my earlier post, if a man/woman is overdoing it in the fragrance department and an employee or group of employees came to me with the issue, I'd speak to the offending person and ask them to tone it down a bit. It may be that they are unaware of their "overdoing" it, but it does not call for a new company wide policy to be enacted.

You're also assuming that only 2% of people wear fragrance, and in my experience that is not accurate. Most people will either wear scented deodorant, aftershave or fragrance and in many cases all of the above. It's faaaaar less common for someone to NOT wear any of them. People that have sensitivities or even a real medical allergy to an ingredient in a fragrance are in the minority. Want to know how I know...because I've been in the workforce and an employer for over 20yrs and have never been presented with a situation like many of you are describing. Employers are taking the fragrance bans to the extreme and I choose not to be one that bows to the pressures of the few that feign sensitivity to fragrance, and the even fewer that have a real medical allergy. Even though I would try to find a workaround for the employees that can prove a valid allergy, but only because I hired them for a reason and I must find value in their presence at the company.

It's my belief that the onus is on the person that has the problem, to find a way to cope, and not society's or co-workers to change for them. If it were me that were sensitive or allergic to fragrance, I'd find a way to deal with it and keep my job. Especially in today's economy...I would NOT go to my employer and expect them to change or create some silly new company policy to suit me and MAYBE a few others who haven't "come forward". Maybe the one's who choose not to come forward, aren't as self centered as the ones that do complain.

I tire of the nanny state, hold your hand type society we are creating. Yes, I said creating...because everytime someone bows to the will of the minority for fear of looking insensitive, it merely validates the minority's feelings of entitlement and empowers them to press foward to further impose their will on others. What ever happened to majority rule and the good of many over the few?

LOL...again, I've allowed myself to get sucked back into this thread, but not again. Good day

[Oblique Human]

Ahh, but what if the person sitting next to you had not bathed or brushed their teeth in a month? What if their B.O. made a pig farm smell like an ocean breeze wafting over a field of lavender, and their breath could knock a buzzard off a sh** wagon?

If someone came into a meeting (wouldn't matter to me if they were on the other side of a 20 ft room) wearing a "light" spray of A-Men (*IS* there such a thing as a LIGHT spray of A-Men) I would be highly, highly offended (well, my olfactory sense would be, I wouldn't consider the person to have been *trying* to interpret the Chernobyl nuclear melt-down disater as an olfactory experience ...) and would be unable to physically remain in that room.
.........
Yes, the "no deodorant" clause is probably going over-board... As I doubt anyone is going to be more offended at the scent of the deodorant than the scent of B.O., or "deadly allergic" to the generic scents put into deodorants, but where do you draw the line? Is Axe a deodorant or a perfume/cologne? I think if you asked the general public this, you wouldn't get a 100% agreement on the answer.

It's just far easier to "blanket" the whole scent issue.

Very well put.

[Oblique Human]

I wish to thank thubbard76 for being the bigger man and allowing me the last word in the unfortunate fork this thread took.

Yes, after thinking more about it, I believe I will find it easy to leave the vicinity, in a pleasant manner, of a person who dislikes a fragrance I have on even if said person does not have a medical condition attributing to this dis-comfort. I would also be willing to make accommodations for such person's comfort if I care about them or have to share a space with them for extended periods of time.

[Walter Sobchak]

Don't run away from this, Dude! GoshDarnit, this affects all of us! Our basic freedoms! I'm staying. Finishing my coffee...

I'm...finishing...my...coffee. :wink2:

[Shmu]

Wow, way to make yourself sound like an ass by taking my words and twisting them to suit something you can attack.

I was simply commenting on everything should work both ways. In my first sentence I purposefully didn't specify which side should accommodate for the greater good of the group. IMO it doesn't matter if I was the one with an allergy, wearing too much cologne, or has too much BO. If my actions/requirements affect the group I should try to figure out a way to have the least impact possible.

I'm sorry, I took what you said the wrong way, and my reaction was uncalled for. I am often frustrated when people refuse to make even the smallest accommodation, and I wrongly took that frustration out on you.

As always, the Mods know when we're stepping over the line, so I'm going to shut up before I say something else stupid.

[Oblique Human]

Don't run away from this, Dude! GoshDarnit, this affects all of us! Our basic freedoms!

Its just that if we have the power to make small concessions towards fellow man, then where's the harm. This kind of problem really does demand a case by case evaluation. The only blanket solution being to turn away or yield a little where you can. I don't preach universal love and harmony, its a pipe dream... the last man on Earth will be still wondering where we went wrong as our world goes up in a cloud of dust. Just think of it as a harmless lie. I honestly believe if a lie can make someone feel good for a while, then there is no dishonor in uttering it. We see these lies every day, the chief candidates being Santa, democracy, freedom, justice for all and William Shatner's hair. So just let be. Of-course if a guy comes at you with a meat cleaver in a Brut(yours)-induced rage, then do feel free to blow his head off with a hand cannon.

[BingeAndPurge]

Stfly, it was a movie quote from Big Lebowski. Hence, his screenname and avatar

[Walter Sobchak]

Stfly, it was a movie quote from Big Leowski. Hence, his screenname and avatar

Yeah, I was just trying to break up the monotonous cycle of redundancy that has become this thread by playing a little game of "Pick a quote from The Big Lebowski" that might fit into the conversation.

It's pure levity. It in no way reflects my personal views of this matter.

[TonyH]

I wish to thank thubbard76 for being the bigger man and allowing me the last word in the unfortunate fork this thread took.

Yes, after thinking more about it, I believe I will find it easy to leave the vicinity, in a pleasant manner, of a person who dislikes a fragrance I have on even if said person does not have a medical condition attributing to this dis-comfort. I would also be willing to make accommodations for such person's comfort if I care about them or have to share a space with them for extended periods of time.

No thanks are due to me. People have passionate feelings about their beliefs, and it speaks well about the man that tries to bring voice to them. I didn't agree with what you were saying, but I never thought it reflected on you as anything other than a man with a strongly held opinion.

I have somewhat of a reputation for being combative, and it bothers me on occasion - but never so much that I'll shy away from a heated discussion. I try to be reasonable, and I'm always glad when others are as well. Thanks for the kind words and the discussion.