View Full Version : Audiophiles... $7200 stereo cables?!?
castlecraver
10-04-2007, 12:34 PM
Caught this on Slashdot and thought it would be interesting to get some perspective from the audiophile crowd here...
The "Anjou Speaker Cable" markets a nearly 1-inch in diameter, "no compromise" audio speaker cable and purports of being the finest amp-to-speaker connection available anywhere. They have a very lengthy and detailed list of claims on their website, here :(http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_anjou_sc.htm)
Now, I'm of the understanding that $7250 could buy you an awfully damned nice stereo amplifier itself, and that's what they're asking for a single 12-foot pair of their cable.
I also belong to the Center for Inquiry Transnational, which is basically a skeptic's society. Through them, I receive James Randii's newsletter -- he's a very well-known skeptic who fights for truth and reason within the science, education, and the media. He's particularly famous for offering a $1 million USD prize for anyone who can conclusively prove a supernatural ability or demonstrate paranormal phenomena, a prize that has been pursued by hundreds, but to this date been unawarded. Think what you will about our particular approach to skepticism -- but the reason I bring him up is that in respect to the $7250 speaker cables, he says:
Well, we at the JREF are willing to be shown that these “no-compromise” cables perform better than, say, the equivalent Monster cables. While Pear rattles on about “capacitance,” “inductance,” “skin effect,” “mechanical integrity” and “radio frequency interface,” – all real qualities and concerns, and adored by the hi-fi nut-cases – we naively believe that a product should be judged by its actual performance, not by qualities that can only be perceived by attentive dogs or by hi-tech instrumentation. That said, we offer the JREF million-dollar prize to – for example – Dave Clark, Editor of the audio review publication Positive Feedback Online, who provided the above rave review. If Mr. Clark should choose to apply for the prize, he would be unlike John Atkinson of Stereophile Magazine – see randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 (http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11) – who made great noises about being ready to snap up the million, then got distracted by things such as gullible readers who accepted his claimed abilities, and backed out. But we’ll see…I was also under the impression that Monster Cables are notoriously overpriced. But when a well-known scientific skeptic goes out of his way to call "bullshit" on a consumer electronics product, and hurl barbs at the "audiophiles" who claim these cables offered a noticeable benefit. For example:
"In extended listening sessions, I found the cables' greatest strength to be its PRAT. Simply put these are very danceable cables. Music playing through them results in the proverbial foot-tapping scene with the need or desire to get up and move. Great swing and pace—these cables smack that right on the nose big time."
-Dave Clark, Editor Positive Feedback OnlineWhat does "danceable" mean? How exactly do stereo cables improve the "swing and pace" of one's music?
So my question to the audiophiles of the forum (out of sheer curiosity and interest... not putting anyone's hobby down in any way) is... can you really tell the difference? How much do you have to spend on a stereo amp and speakers for the difference between a $7250 and a $50 speaker cable to be truly appreciable?
I realize that product opinions are incredibly subjective based on the person, as with cars, cigars, and shaving brushes. But there's something about this stereo cable business (and I've read a considerable bit about HDMI cables in the same vein) that seems a bit different to me. What do you think? I'm interested in "non-audiophiles'" gut reactions as well.
farace
10-04-2007, 01:29 PM
My non-audiophile (late-60s AR XA turntable, early 70s Kenwood receiver, home-rebuilt Advent speakers, Realistic 8-track player/recorder) gut reaction is that I love seeing the air let out of inflated claims, and anyone that would even consider spending that kind of money on speaker cables deserves to have them. (Personally, I like finding cheapskate solutions like on www.tnt-audio.com.)
People will believe anything. I was at a guitar shop several years ago and happened to mention that I use an old-fashioned curly cable for my bass. Another customer wondered why, and I jokingly said that people spend megabucks for vintage guitars and vintage amps and still can't get the vintage sound they're after, and the reason is because they're not using the old-style cables. But he was believing me, so I laid it on thicker and told him that most folks don't realize that the twist in the cable actually puts a spin on the signal, keeping it aligned properly, much like a bullet or a thrown football spins for accuracy. "Wow! Really!?!" I could have sold that guy some cables then and there, and marked them up. (Fact is, the curly cable does sound different, but it's only because it acts like a tone control, probably because of too much capacitance.) I never did let him know I was pulling his leg, so I may have contributed to some misinformation making the rounds. :biggrin:
sparkchaser
10-04-2007, 01:30 PM
I was reading the slashdot comments when I decided to drop in here and see if anything was going on.
How funny.
scagooch
10-04-2007, 01:49 PM
I used to be an audiophile until i realized that the equipment was overpriced and poorly made. Most speaker maker don't even use their own drivers.
ada8356
10-04-2007, 01:52 PM
As a non-audiophile I call BS. This would have to a prime example of diminishing returns - they might provide for a slightly better sound, but nothing that would justify the price... but hey, if you've got that kind of money and that's how you want to spend it, then I'm not going to stop you.
masonjarjar
10-04-2007, 01:55 PM
one word: Placebo.
That being said, I have always had "comprable" quality interconnects based on the equipment that I own. I stepped up a notch and got slightly better cables (that is, I spent $15 on cables instead of using the cheap-ass ones that components come with) when I upgraded from a Kenwood Receiver to an Arcam Integrated Amp. I also got some better speaker cables too, I think I spent $50 on those, which is the most I've ever paid for any kind of wire.
I really do think there's a psychological aspect to it. If you have a $1000 amp, a $1000 cd player, and you have cheap wires connecting them, your mind starts going.. and pretty soon you find yourself ordering new cables. Now, what's appropriate is entirely subjective and bound by the constraints of your wallet. $7000 cables?? Maybe if you have a $25,000 amp and Speakers.. You'll sure be able to focus more on your music because your mind won't be distracted by worrying that your "cheaper" cables might be somehow polluting the sound..
Really though, there are some pretty crazy things that Audiophiles spend their money on to "improve" their sound. If I had the wealth to do that, I'd probably be there too.. :drool:
But.. yea.. what does "Pacing" (and all those other made-up words) really mean?
-Mason
papasmurf
10-04-2007, 01:58 PM
My non-audiophile (late-60s AR XA turntable, early 70s Kenwood receiver, home-rebuilt Advent speakers, Realistic 8-track player/recorder) gut reaction is that I love seeing the air let out of inflated claims, and anyone that would even consider spending that kind of money on speaker cables deserves to have them. (Personally, I like finding cheapskate solutions like on www.tnt-audio.com.)
People will believe anything. I was at a guitar shop several years ago and happened to mention that I use an old-fashioned curly cable for my bass. Another customer wondered why, and I jokingly said that people spend megabucks for vintage guitars and vintage amps and still can't get the vintage sound they're after, and the reason is because they're not using the old-style cables. But he was believing me, so I laid it on thicker and told him that most folks don't realize that the twist in the cable actually puts a spin on the signal, keeping it aligned properly, much like a bullet or a thrown football spins for accuracy. "Wow! Really!?!" I could have sold that guy some cables then and there, and marked them up. (Fact is, the curly cable does sound different, but it's only because it acts like a tone control, probably because of too much capacitance.) I never did let him know I was pulling his leg, so I may have contributed to some misinformation making the rounds. :biggrin:
OMG that was you ???????
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Nick
boboakalfb
10-04-2007, 02:04 PM
One word...Ouch.
rickw
10-04-2007, 02:05 PM
How much do these thing weigh? Do you need a forklift to move them.
At $7,200 per 12' pair, they're not even the most expensive. I know that the Nordost Valhalla cables run about $4,200 per meter, and at this point there are probably even more expensive offerings available.
High end audio, which can be such a source of pleasure, is unfortunately rife with all sorts of voodoo and junk science. A newsgroup I used to frequent had a long standing offer (which is now probably in the several thousands of dollars range) to anyone who could distinguish between high end cables and ordinary speaker wire under strict double blind testing. Needless to say, it remains unclaimed.
The "golden eared" reviewers (anyone surprised that Corey Greenberg of shaveblog fame was one of them?) make all sorts of ludicrous claims, yet never seem to be able to deliver. Perhaps they serve as psychics in their spare time, another profession where the practitioners fail to demonstrate their powers, usually saying that they can only use them for "good". "Good" is apparently defined as not collecting a million bucks for themselves, but apparently its alright to clean out the bank accounts of little old ladies.
An interesting aside would be the strange case of Arthur B. Lintgen, a medical doctor with a compendious knowledge of classical music. He also writes for The Absolute Sound, by far the best of the audio rags. He was tested by James Randi and passed, but makes no claim to the supernatural. He has the extraordinary ability to identify pieces of classical music by simply looking at a vinyl LP. Truly astonishing, no doubt, but nothing magical at all. He (I don't want to say "simply") trained himself to be able to identify loud and soft passages on the recording by site and match them to known works. Amazing!
An interesting aside would be the strange case of Arthur B. Lintgen, a medical doctor with a compendious knowledge of classical music. He also writes for The Absolute Sound, by far the best of the audio rags. He was tested by James Randi and passed, but makes no claim to the supernatural. He has the extraordinary ability to identify pieces of classical music by simply looking at a vinyl LP. Truly astonishing, no doubt, but nothing magical at all. He (I don't want to say "simply") trained himself to be able to identify loud and soft passages on the recording by site and match them to known works. Amazing!
They got ... um ... labels.
farace
10-04-2007, 02:31 PM
OMG that was you ???????
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Nick
How do you like the cable? :biggrin:
analog_kid
10-04-2007, 02:32 PM
They got ... um ... labels.
Zing! :lol:
A bit off-topic, but does anyone else think that all this HD video will follow in the footpaths of Hi-Fi audio, which in my opinion(save for a few niche groups) is pretty much dead thanks to the MP3 revolution? Will portable, lower quality video take the place of 1080p?
They got ... um ... labels.
:lol:
Of course, I meant to say un-labeled LP"s. You can't even blink on this site.
For the record, I use Goertz Alpha-Core cables and interconnects.
tam.audio
10-04-2007, 03:47 PM
Zing! :lol:
A bit off-topic, but does anyone else think that all this HD video will follow in the footpaths of Hi-Fi audio, which in my opinion(save for a few niche groups) is pretty much dead thanks to the MP3 revolution? Will portable, lower quality video take the place of 1080p?
I hope to God that low resolution audio and video never take the place of HD or "good" quality audio.
As for those cables, I call BS. I'm an audio engineer and have worked in a professional music studio, and they don't use nearly that "high quality" connectors. Then again, a lot of studios like to use professional gear that is near in quality to consumer. 'Cause making it sound good on consumer speakers and cables is what's important.
An even bigger rip is custom "power cables". Imagine, hundreds of bucks for a stiff cable to plug between your amp and wall socket.
Will someone please explain how after traveling many miles through your local power supplier's cables, the signal will be cleaned up in the last two feet? :crying:
tam.audio
10-04-2007, 04:10 PM
An even bigger rip is custom "power cables". Imagine, hundreds of bucks for a stiff cable to plug between your amp and wall socket.
Will someone please explain how after traveling many miles through your local power supplier's cables, the signal will be cleaned up in the last two feet? :crying:
The only thing that will do this is a Power Conditioner that evens the voltage powering the device. I don't believe a custom power cable has this ability.
180gVinyl
10-04-2007, 04:15 PM
$7200 on cables - Bl**dy puddled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A nice slab of vinyl through a moving coil stage v MP3 - Gimme that black magic :thumbup1:
Mysterion
10-04-2007, 04:16 PM
As referenced above, you can spend far, far more for both interconnects and speaker cables. If you're looking for a reasonable return on investment, it's probably better put into another part of the system. Cables and interconnects *do* make some difference, but there's a point of diminishing returns. Recall that Stevie Ray Vaughn--reknowned by many for his tone--insisted on a certain model of cheap, Radio Shack-sourced guitar cord; nothing else would do.
High-end audio is rife with "compensator" equipment, pricey gear whose chief benefit is bragging rights. Mortgage-sized investments don't always guarantee a truly great sounding system. I've worked in recording studios as an engineer, and I found the experience ruined me for home stereo; nothing sounded good anymore, not even gear more expensive than the studio used. These days, I get more satisfaction out of assembling a "guerilla" system; carefully matched "bargain audiophile" picks (new and used) that work together far better than the total cost would suggest. I've got a living room system that sounds flat amazing for $500 (Yes, it's a little weak on bass, but it's fantastic for small jazz ensemble and vocal music.)
Finally--A high-end freak I know opined that he hated going to see live music performed: He felt the sound was inferior. Each to his own, I say, but he somehow seems to be missing the point. Some of the best shows I've ever experienced have ended in fried capacitors and blown speakers. (Thanks, Bootsy.)
ClunkClunk
10-04-2007, 04:40 PM
These days, I get more satisfaction out of assembling a "guerilla" system; carefully matched "bargain audiophile" picks (new and used) that work together far better than the total cost would suggest. I've got a living room system that sounds flat amazing for $500
I have a system like that in my living room. It's more than I need for my apartment, and suits 5.1 movies wonderfully. It took a bit of research, and some waiting around for deals, used and new, but once it came together, I'm a happy camper. My previous neighbor was quite upset that his $2,500 system from some big box retailer doesn't even come close to the clarity and unity of my system. Calibration also helps too. An SPL meter can do wonders with even a cheap home theater system.
Cambridge, Rotel, Adcom, Musical Fidelity and a host of other companies sell products that cost the same as electronics store junk but provide a good chunk of the high end experience. If you do your homework, you can assemble a thoroughly satisfying system that will last many, many years for a reasonable price.
Unfortunately, as with this thing of ours, it's a hobby prone to excess. No matter what anybody tells you, start with speakers and work your way back.
doctorsimon
10-04-2007, 05:46 PM
I use QED 79 strand -- it is the cheapest cable my local quality retailer sells. I need about 30m of cable for my 6.1 system so I'd rather have some value quality cable.
analog_kid
10-04-2007, 06:02 PM
Cambridge, Rotel, Adcom, Musical Fidelity and a host of other companies sell products that cost the same as electronics store junk but provide a good chunk of the high end experience. If you do your homework, you can assemble a thoroughly satisfying system that will last many, many years for a reasonable price.
Unfortunately, as with this thing of ours, it's a hobby prone to excess. No matter what anybody tells you, start with speakers and work your way back.
I've always heard to get the best amp you can afford, and then go from there. Reason being that a good amp will make crappy speakers sound better, while a crappy amp will make amazing speakers sound awful.
masonjarjar
10-04-2007, 06:03 PM
Cambridge, Rotel, Adcom, Musical Fidelity and a host of other companies sell products that cost the same as electronics store junk but provide a good chunk of the high end experience. If you do your homework, you can assemble a thoroughly satisfying system that will last many, many years for a reasonable price.
Unfortunately, as with this thing of ours, it's a hobby prone to excess. No matter what anybody tells you, start with speakers and work your way back.
I have an Arcam Integrated Amp, A Musical Fidelity table and Mirage Speakers. Always been totally pleased with the sound it gives me. No, they're not Conrad Johnson, but they're better than pretty much anything you can get at Best Buy.
-Mason
MCsommerreid
10-04-2007, 08:31 PM
Those cables are so not even worth $100 for a 12' length. They're low gauge copper strand, where they should be high gauge low-oxygen silver braid. Not even silver-rhodium plated jacks, looks like regular copper BNC connectors.
The amount of fail in the high end audio market is amazing. Monster is so blame for quite a bit of it. It gets even more ridiculous with digital, since for all intents and purposes fiber optic is fiber optic above a certain price range. $20 fiber cable is exactly the same as $1000 fiber cable, so long as you aren't doing crazy light experiments where you need to accurately control the internal refraction are other insanity.
An even bigger rip is custom "power cables". Imagine, hundreds of bucks for a stiff cable to plug between your amp and wall socket.
Will someone please explain how after traveling many miles through your local power supplier's cables, the signal will be cleaned up in the last two feet? :crying:
Actually there is a point to those, at least where tube amps are concerned. Occasionally they can go weird and suck massive power from the wall or leak massive power into the ground. But we're talking a $100 cable tops.
Heck, some of the bozos claim to be able to hear differences in CD transports! Unless they are blatantly failing, they are delivering the same bitstream to tha DAC.
Of course, you need a special cable from the transport to the DAC.......... :lol:
An even bigger rip is custom "power cables". Imagine, hundreds of bucks for a stiff cable to plug between your amp and wall socket.
Will someone please explain how after traveling many miles through your local power supplier's cables, the signal will be cleaned up in the last two feet? :crying:
+1 here jay and high have tried my share of high end cables looking for that last little bit
jazzman
10-05-2007, 05:35 AM
As a non-audiophile I call BS. This would have to a prime example of diminishing returns - they might provide for a slightly better sound, but nothing that would justify the price... but hey, if you've got that kind of money and that's how you want to spend it, then I'm not going to stop you.
As an audiophile, I pretty much agree with that. I can certainly hear the difference between my almost-bottom-of-the-line Kimber interconnects and speaker wire and the stuff they replaced (thick Monster speaker cable and interconnects that come with the components). But all of those wires cost about $200, and I could only notice the difference when concentrating hard on making A-B comparisons; once you start using your system to enjoy music, the differences become much less noticable.
Seven thousand dollars can buy you the best phono preamp, or speakers that will astound you, or a great amp, or a used car that runs, or even an entire audio system that will give you years of enjoyment. But $7,000 doesn't mean anything to some people, so I can't fault them for helping the cable manufacturer to live in luxury.
By the way, Ouch and others who posted here are absolutely correct about being able to assemble a great system without going broke or nuts. I have the recently discontinued 3-box Musical Fidelity DAC system feeding on digits from an old Rotel CD player; an old Delphi turntable ($500 used, several thousand new); a used Benz Micro cartridge ($1200 new, but I paid much less to a trusted friend); and Audio Research amp and preamp. All of that electricity ends up in a pair of astounding speakers from an obscure company, Eminent Technology, that charges only $1900 for a new pair (again, I paid much less for a used set). And Ouch also is correct about starting with the speakers. The best components will sound lousy through bad speakers, but if you start with good speakers and upgrade components as you can afford them, your AD will entertain you indefinitely.
ScottS
10-05-2007, 05:35 AM
I've always just used zip cord.
I've always just used zip cord.
I would go a little more then that the gauge and the shielding will make a difference that can be heard. but there are plenty of people making great cables at a very reasonable price.
Seven thousand dollars can buy you the best phono preamp, or speakers that will astound you, or a great amp, or a used car that runs, or even an entire audio system that will give you years of enjoyment. But $7,000 doesn't mean anything to some people, so I can't fault them for helping the cable manufacturer to live in luxury.
In comparison if you are attaching them to $100,000 speakers it is all relative.
Lynchmeister
10-05-2007, 05:45 AM
I agree with the point made about diminishing returns, but to give you all an idea of my audiophile-ness, my current sound system is a clock radio from the eighties. :biggrin:
To the point Matt made about portability eventually taking over video, I don't think it will happen to the extreme that it did with audio. I say that because I love bringing my music with me while I'm doing other things like driving, working out, etc. While some people do mount LCD screens in their steering wheels, I just don't see it catching on with the mainstream. :wink: On the flip side, though, I could never just sit in a room with a radio. I'd get bored. TV, though...:thumbsup:
I have the recently discontinued 3-box Musical Fidelity DAC
I love that set up I use it in my office:thumbup1:
farace
10-05-2007, 05:50 AM
I would go a little more then that the gauge and the shielding will make a difference that can be heard. but there are plenty of people making great cables at a very reasonable price.
If you go to www.tnt-audio.com and navigate through to the DIY pages, there are instructions for making speaker cables from Cat5 networking cable for cheap. Haven't done it yet myself; it's one of those projects that I'll "get to someday."
I've always heard to get the best amp you can afford, and then go from there. Reason being that a good amp will make crappy speakers sound better, while a crappy amp will make amazing speakers sound awful.
I am with ouch on this start with the speakers.
castlecraver
10-05-2007, 08:03 AM
Wow... what an insightful thread with some really excellent replies :thumbup1:
Ouch... loved your anecdote about the newsgroup and our friend Mr. Greenberg. :biggrin: I've also heard of people who could "read" the music off vinyl -- I'm sure there's got to be a way to parlay a talent like that into free drinks, but I can't think of it right now. :tongue:
I'm an audio engineer and have worked in a professional music studio, and they don't use nearly that "high quality" connectors. Then again, a lot of studios like to use professional gear that is near in quality to consumer. 'Cause making it sound good on consumer speakers and cables is what's important.
That's a point I'm also interested in, and it also kind of speaks to the "special power cable" thing that was brought up. I mean, seriously... CDs must have limitations, most homes aren't acoustically tuned like the frickin' Mormon Tabernacle, and if you're listening to music on equipment that may well be superior to the equipment that the guy mixing it was listening to it on in the studio, what's the point?
Heck, maybe you really need special ear surgery to truly appreciate the subtitle nuances of your music. Hmm... I'm taking that idea. Patent pending. I'll call it Auditory Response Surgical Enhancement or "ARSE" for short. I bet you could totally sell that to some of these people.
I'm not familiar with any true scientific double-blind studies done to test whether a real "audiophile" can actually tell the difference between pieces of equipment, let alone cables. However, my intuition tells me that if a so-called "expert" was unable to tell the difference consistently and reproducibly, he or she could just as easily blame the errors on changes in relative humidity and air pressure causing minor variations in the acoustics of the room and the impedance of the circuitry. (I'm just talking out of my ARSE when I say that... I have no idea if that baloney could really be passed off as reasonable) or some other minute inconsistency, because it seems like they're really splitting hairs here.
Those cables are so not even worth $100 for a 12' length. They're low gauge copper strand, where they should be high gauge low-oxygen silver braid. Not even silver-rhodium plated jacks, looks like regular copper BNC connectors.
True. Some speaker/amp combos can draw some high current- gauge should be sufficient to handle it.
However, not one person has ever demonstrated the ability to distinguish between copper and silver wiring. One of the cool things about science is that we have equipment that is far better than the human senses for measuring things.
The amount of fail in the high end audio market is amazing. Monster is so blame for quite a bit of it.
And yet Monster's founder, Richard Marsh, is an accomplshed engineer who produced a highly regarded amplifier that was one of the greatest bargains in audio. I think he's out of business, though. Guess he priced his product too low for people to take it seriously.
For what it's worth, amplification is essentially a solved problem.
As an audiophile, I pretty much agree with that. I can certainly hear the difference between my almost-bottom-of-the-line Kimber interconnects and speaker wire and the stuff they replaced (thick Monster speaker cable and interconnects that come with the components). But all of those wires cost about $200, and I could only notice the difference when concentrating hard on making A-B comparisons; once you start using your system to enjoy music, the differences become much less noticable.
Then you should head over to rec.audio.high-end, collect their prize, and buy some more gear.
A friend who is in the audio business for over thirty years has confessed that one of the simplest tricks employed to fool customers is to A/B components, where a predetermined (ie: better markup) product is simply set to play louder. The customer will choose that one 100% of the time.
ScottS
10-05-2007, 08:23 AM
I would go a little more then that the gauge and the shielding will make a difference that can be heard. but there are plenty of people making great cables at a very reasonable price.
The shielding is one issue, but my speakers hardly need more current than 10 gauge zip cord can provide. I also have some cheap chokes on the cord.
jazzman
10-05-2007, 11:24 AM
.Then you should head over to rec.audio.high-end, collect their prize, and buy some more gear.
A friend who is in the audio business for over thirty years has confessed that one of the simplest tricks employed to fool customers is to A/B components, where a predetermined (ie: better markup) product is simply set to play louder. The customer will choose that one 100% of the time.
Sheesh! Next you're gonna tell me that my Tice Clock and Shakti Stones don't work! Well, at least we can all agree that rubbing the edges of our CDs with a green felt-tipped marker always improves the sound.:smile:
(The Tice Clock was marketed about 15 years ago. It was a normal digital clock that the company said had been treated in ways they could not reveal, and when it was placed in the same room as your stereo the sound improved dramatically. Shakti Stones ($200 a piece) are still on the market, as are similar products. Just buy a few, put 'em on your components, and hear the difference!:001_tt1: )
farace
10-05-2007, 12:56 PM
Shakti Stones ($200 a piece) are still on the market, as are similar products. Just buy a few, put 'em on your components, and hear the difference!:001_tt1: )
That must be where all the surplus Pet Rocks went!
Sheesh! Next you're gonna tell me that my Tice Clock and Shakti Stones don't work! Well, at least we can all agree that rubbing the edges of our CDs with a green felt-tipped marker always improves the sound.:smile:
(The Tice Clock was marketed about 15 years ago. It was a normal digital clock that the company said had been treated in ways they could not reveal, and when it was placed in the same room as your stereo the sound improved dramatically. Shakti Stones ($200 a piece) are still on the market, as are similar products. Just buy a few, put 'em on your components, and hear the difference!:001_tt1: )
:lol:
You're not kidding. Some guys elevate their cables off the floor and swear to be able to tell the difference. Others put pennies under their speakers to better couple tem to the floor. I can see it now- custom pennies, $39.95 per set of eight.
jlander
10-05-2007, 01:21 PM
The sale and discourse on audio equipment is totally expressed in YMMV.
I sold (and owned) a lot of high-end audio equipment in my younger days. When asked what would I recommend between, say, McIntosh and Aragon amplifiers, my response was; buy what sounds good to you. If a $5 transistor radio at the bottom of a 55 gal. drum is the sound you like, then you are a fool to spend more. I may hear a difference, someone else may hear a difference, but WE are not the persons you should be concerned about.
In the '80's Harmonic distortion was the catch phrase. Many very good manufacturers bragged on the 0.01% or lower levels from thier equipment. This sold a lot of equipment, even though 99.95% of the people tested in audio labs could not discern harmonic distortion below 0.3% and 99% could not hear it at levels approachin 0.5%.
Dots on paper are "specs". They can seperate the really bad from the better, but only your ears can tell you what sounds good to you. Once YOU can no longer REALLY tell the difference in an upgrade, you have reached the point of diminishing returns. To spend beyond that is to feed the ego not the ear.
The sale and discourse on audio equipment is totally expressed in YMMV.
BS is BS in any language and in any age.
tam.audio
10-05-2007, 03:26 PM
:lol:
You're not kidding. Some guys elevate their cables off the floor and swear to be able to tell the difference. Others put pennies under their speakers to better couple tem to the floor. I can see it now- custom pennies, $39.95 per set of eight.
There is some truth to the cables off the floor. Also, it is best to cross cables at 90 degree angles. But again, it's all about if you care or can even tell if there is a difference.
There is some truth to the cables off the floor. Also, it is best to cross cables at 90 degree angles. But again, it's all about if you care or can even tell if there is a difference.
In theory, you should cross your cables at 90 degree angles, but that has nothing to do with what this thread is about.
What we're talking about here is spending extraordinary amounts of money with the intention of improving the sound of a system. If you're buying such products to stroke your ego or impress your friends, that's another story, but if you desire improved performance, wouldn't you feel a bit like a dweeb if it turned out that the change (note the word change, not improvement) in your system was below the threshold of audibility? Moving your speakers 1/4" will yield a far more dramatic effect, and it's free.
The sad part is that the industry has routinely recommended that a significant portion of one's audio budget be allotted to products that do nothing more than pad the bill. This practice puts many otherwise affordable systems out of the range of viability for a lot of people, and that's just pure evil. For $7,200 one can easily assemble a world class, full range system that will amaze you every time you turn it on.
DirtyDave
10-06-2007, 08:51 AM
Pat,
I cannot answer your questions about the cables, but I can say this, having sold audio equipment, about audiophiles: The men who purport themselves to be audiophiles (never meet a woman who described herself thus, but she may exist) are to the uniformly and with out exception, the most miserable humans on the face of the planet.
Nothing is every right with them. They were never happy, never seemed able to enjoy themselves, never seemed to enjoy the music. Of course it was never about the music, it was about music reproduction equipment, equal parts bragging rights for owning something exotic and expensive and fear that they may not have best and most current high-end stuff.
For a salesman, this was two powerful motivating forces at work, pride and fear. And don't think there not some really fat commissions on the high merchandise. Want a nice vacation? Sell an Infinity Reference Series III system. Sun and fun, here I come!
They could never really seem lay back and get into the sound for which they all paid so dearly for. For them it was all trees and no forest. They didn't hear the violin, they heard the bow dragging across the string and it was just not quite right.
I also think audiophiles are some of the most gullible people on the face of the planet. Some manufacturer comes out with a new wrinkle on something (say enormously thick cables), hypes it, gets some good press and charges a fortune for it and the audiophile will buy it. Sadly, it has not made their world perfect or even better. He will then whine about it, say how it did not live up the hype and how over priced it was, how this part of the music is muddy, this part is too bright, and so on and so on and so on. Then, beyond all logic and reason, sit back and wait for the next big thing to come along and go through this sad, nay, insane, exercise all over again.
There, I got it all out. Now I feel much better. :smile:
ScottS
10-07-2007, 09:46 AM
I also think audiophiles are some of the most gullible people on the face of the planet. Some manufacturer comes out with a new wrinkle on something (say enormously thick cables), hypes it, gets some good press and charges a fortune for it and the audiophile will buy it. Sadly, it has not made their world perfect or even better. He will then whine about it, say how it did not live up the hype and how over priced it was, how this part of the music is muddy, this part is too bright, and so on and so on and so on. Then, beyond all logic and reason, sit back and wait for the next big thing to come along and go through this sad, nay, insane, exercise all over again.
Every niche has to have an excuse to convince people who have everything they need to replace it far more often than the lifespan of the products, or the vendors go out of business.
Moving your speakers 1/4" will yield a far more dramatic effect, and it's free.
When I owned my Maggies, every few days/weeks/hours I'd readjust them. I never found the best placement. Though the room acoustics were sub-par.
When I owned my Maggies, every few days/weeks/hours I'd readjust them. I never found the best placement. Though the room acoustics were sub-par.
Maggies are perhaps the most room dependent speakers I can think of. It took me weeks to dial them in just right and to integrate them with my REL sub. It was worth it. Now I keep some clear tape on the floor marking their exact position should I have to move them.
Maggies are perhaps the most room dependent speakers I can think of. It took me weeks to dial them in just right and to integrate them with my REL sub. It was worth it. Now I keep some clear tape on the floor marking their exact position should I have to move them.
my logans are pretty touchy too a 1/4" really does make a difference. Tape on the floor real does work great
my logans are pretty touchy too a 1/4" really does make a difference. Tape on the floor real does work great
Stats may be worse than planars for that. ML makes great stuff, don't they?
Stats may be worse than planars for that. ML makes great stuff, don't they?
Sure do I have owned a lot a different speakers always changing till I bought ML's The mids out of them are unbelievable and coming from a dead black background nothing but the music. Once you get them right and it does take some work the sound stage is extraordinary. Also the center image is dead on
AccidentalChef
10-08-2007, 09:57 PM
Oh man, where do I start on this one. I think this will end up being my first post here, so I apologize in advance for refuting anyone's statements in this thread or causing any controversy. I've been lurking for a while, if it makes any difference.
To start, I've been an audiophile for a long time. I started with a pair of Magnepans when I was in 7th or 8th grade, which I saved up for by doing yard work. My system has progressed over the years to being the second most expensive thing I own, after the condo I live in. It's worth, even used, more than I paid for my car, and my car is reasonably nice. I've seen a lot of reactions here that are typical of non-audiophiles when discussing audiophile equipment, and that's fine. Even as an audiophile I'm skeptical about all of this stuff. The difference is that I try it and decide what to do based on my experiences.
When , a few years ago, I decided to build a new system from scratch, I didn't budget for any cables at all. I started with amplifiers, and blew almost my entire budget there. Once I expanded my budget a bit, I chose speakers, and then a CD player to balance out the system. At that point I was using cables loaned to me by my stereo shop. Once I was used to the new equipment, my shop started loaning me cables to play with. If I'd kept notes tat the time, I could tell you what I heard, but specific sonic criteria weren't what impressed me. I based my decisions on how much I felt like I enjoyed the stereo with the different cables in place.
Some cables immediately repelled me. One in particular gave me a feeling that something was wrong with the sound, and I didn't feel like listening to the stereo until I removed them. Another, the ones I ended up buying, gave me the desire to spend every free moment in front of the stereo. With the cables I previously owned, I was listening to 1 or 2 albums per day. With these new cables, I was spending 6-8 hours per day in front of the stereo, doing everything from eating breakfast to paying bills. I could bore you with audiophile jargon about what I felt the differences were, but the bottom line was I wanted to listen more. Placebo? I'll be the first to admit it's a possibility, but if it is, who cares? The patients who improve while being given a placebo in a medical study still improve, and I still enjoy my stereo more than I did before.
My cables are expensive, no doubt. In fact, I've spent more on cables than the average person spends on a whole stereo. In the end though, they're less expensive than the least expensive component in my system. Each of these "upgrades" has caused me to enjoy my stereo more than I did previously, and therefore is worth it to me. Whether any of it can be scientifically explained or not has no bearing on my enjoyment of my music.
In response to whoever characterized audiophiles as a miserable lot who are never happy with anything, that is often the case. The key word there is often, but not always. I've had friends who wouldn't spend more than $1000 on speakers, and were never happy with what they had. They'd change speakers a 4-6 times a year looking for the "holy grail" of $1000 speakers, and they'd lose $300-$500 each time they'd swap. If they'd just saved that money for a few years and bought a $5000 speaker, they'd have had everything they wanted. On the other hand, I I'm perfectly happy with what I have, and I suspect I will be for decades to come. That doesn't mean I wont upgrade when I can afford it, it just means that when I'm upgrading it's for the purpose of playing with stereo equipment rather than making me happy with the music reproduction. I will note that the moment I decided that the music was perfectly sufficient came after my cable upgrades were finished. Coincidence? Who knows? Who cares?
In the end, all that matters is an individual's satisfaction with the money they've spent on their hobby. Many on this board have spent hundreds, if not thousands, on shaving equipment. Even if you shave with the best-of-the-best products, your beard will grow back. Does that make your investment a waste? Of course not. Almost all hobbies involve irrational expenses, but as long as the hobbyist enjoys the journey the money is not wasted. I could get from point A to point B just as well in a less expensive car. I could have fresh flowers delivered weekly for what I spend on orchids. My computer is far more powerful than I need. None of these things matter, because they're all hobbies which I enjoy.
If you told the average person you could spend hundreds of dollars on a shaving brush, they'd think you were crazy. After all, they spend $3 on a can of shaving cream that doesn't need a brush. If an audiophile mentions spending thousands on cables, the reaction is the same. In the end, the only important factor is enjoyment. Some people spend millions on artwork (it's just canvas and paint!), some spend thousands on wine (spoiled grape juice!), and some buy exotic cars (they're just transportation!), when they can't even use a fraction of their potential. Many audiophiles choose to spend their money on cables, and (hopefully) the result is that they're happier with their music in the end.
masonjarjar
10-08-2007, 10:10 PM
AccidentalChef.. VERY well put. It's all in what you value and what gives you pleasure. Some people like boats, some people like guns, some like classic razors, and some like.. stereo equipment. I knew a lawyer that drove a Saturn, but took several trips a year. It's all in what you value.
-Mason
ClunkClunk
10-08-2007, 10:39 PM
I think what bothers me mostly about audiophiles, is that it's a very qualitative approach to what I view as a quantitative question.
You can strap a performance car to a dyno, make passes on a road course or drag strip and get a quantitative result in how the vehicle performs, and compare that to others. You can also enjoy its qualitative aspects – how life feels from the driver's seat of a Ferrari versus a Corvette.
Audiophiles seem to eschew almost all scientific, quantitative methods of testing their equipment and go for almost strictly qualitative results (i.e. how the setup "felt", using adjectives like "brightness" "sweetness").
Personally, I tend to shy away from things that appeal strictly to emotion and sometimes involves a helping of junk science to explain certain phenomena. This is strictly my opinion, though. Not all audiophile products are strictly emotionally marketed, and use junk science, but a certain portion does, and that makes me avoid the subject.
However, like others have said, it's just a hobby. Enjoy what you're in to. I won't be buying $7200 cables, but you probably wouldn't spend the time and money on my strange hobbies.
Very nice post, Accident. Hobbies are one of the few things that keep us sane, and we tend to get carried away a bit with them. Look at the whole shaving thing. :lol:
Where we differ is in regard to results. Guys may spend a fortune on a top quality watch (we have plenty of watch geeks here), but I don't think a single one of them has convinced themselves that their Movado/Rolex/Breitling keeps better time than a Casio, which is essentially the claim that many folks make about their cables. You imply that not only was your change of cables perceptible, but obvious. Now one thing is for certain- either the change is preceptible or it is not. Period. If it is, you should have no problem demonstrating your ability to identify a change under a rigorous but simple set of criteria, and if you could, you'd be the first that I heard of.
Now there are things you can do with your system that are audible. Different tubes may sound a lot different. Warming up your system versus playing it cold may yield surprising results (my wife didn't believe me, and spent a few months testing me until she was satisfied). But cables? That's something you're going to have to prove. If you're happy, have fun. But whenever extraordinary claims are made, you have to expect challenges. Even some legendary companies such as Spectral will not warranty their amps unless a specific cable is used. How a company can release a product that they say will oscillate if the wrong cable is used is beyond me.
Enjoy the music!
TimmyBoston
10-08-2007, 11:51 PM
Very nice post, Accident. Hobbies are one of the few things that keep us sane, and we tend to get carried away a bit with them. Look at the whole shaving thing. :lol:
Where we differ is in regard to results. Guys may spend a fortune on a top quality watch (we have plenty of watch geeks here), but I don't think a single one of them has convinced themselves that their Movado/Rolex/Breitling keeps better time than a Casio, which is essentially the claim that many folks make about their cables. You imply that not only was your change of cables perceptible, but obvious. Now one thing is for certain- either the change is preceptible or it is not. Period. If it is, you should have no problem demonstrating your ability to identify a change under a rigorous but simple set of criteria, and if you could, you'd be the first that I heard of.
Now there are things you can do with your system that are audible. Different tubes may sound a lot different. Warming up your system versus playing it cold may yield surprising results (my wife didn't believe me, and spent a few months testing me until she was satisfied). But cables? That's something you're going to have to prove. If you're happy, have fun. But whenever extraordinary claims are made, you have to expect challenges. Even some legendary companies such as Spectral will not warranty their amps unless a specific cable is used. How a company can release a product that they say will oscillate if the wrong cable is used is beyond me.
Enjoy the music!
Jay,
I'm going to chime in here, Accidental Chef is one of my good friends and he uses the Valhalla cables you mentioned in one of your earlier posts. I am no audiophile, the best speakers I have are the crappy ones that hook up to my computer. But I have heard his system with those cables and without. I didn't want to believe it, I could even hear a difference. I think it's crazy, but I could hear it. The cables actually make a real difference.
AccidentalChef
10-08-2007, 11:52 PM
Adam,
I certainly appreciate your opinions. However, music is inherently an emotional experience. Coming at it from a scientific perspective is a guarantee of a numbing musical experience for me. I wouldn't judge Hemingway by the quality of paper his work was printed on, and I wouldn't judge a Picasso by the frame it was in. Music is an art form, and any art form is inherently a qualitative experience. You could judge love as a scientific experience. After all, it's just chemicals in your brain. Doing that, though, would ruin the experience. For some people, music is the same way.
You may have hit the nail on the head with your car analogy though. Driving, for me, is certainly qualitative. I don't care about the lap time if I enjoy the ride (Faster is certainly more fun, though!). Some people might have exactly the opposite priorities I do. I suppose such a thing is possible as well with music; some people may prefer having lower distortion and flatter frequency response to actually having the music sound good to their ears. Neither is necessarily right or wrong.For me, though, and for many people who consider themselves audiophiles, the music is the experience. It's about the emotion in the music. It's about a particular part of a song giving you goosebumps or bringing tears to your eyes. These things are not, and can not be, quantitative.
Steve
Jay,
I'm going to chime in here, Accidental Chef is one of my good friends and he uses the Valhalla cables you mentioned in one of your earlier posts.
Ah-ha! That explains it. He's been hitting your liquor cabinet! :lol:
However, music is inherently an emotional experience. Coming at it from a scientific perspective is a guarantee of a numbing musical experience for me. I wouldn't judge Hemingway by the quality of paper his work was printed on, and I wouldn't judge a Picasso by the frame it was in. Music is an art form, and any art form is inherently a qualitative experience.
Steve
Couldn't put it any better than that. :thumbup1:
So what do you have hooked up to those fancy cables, Steve? I'll make sure I'm sitting down when I read your next post.
jlander
10-09-2007, 05:47 AM
Ah-ha! That explains it. He's been hitting your liquor cabinet! :lol:
Couldn't put it any better than that. :thumbup1:
So what do you have hooked up to those fancy cables, Steve? I'll make sure I'm sitting down when I read your next post.
As will I! Having owned some very high end equipment in the past, I'm always interested in an individuals choices. :thumbup:
(And where EXACTLY does Tim hide his liquor cabinet? :lol: )
To me, the biggest mystery in the world of high end audio will always be this:
How did that little nebbish Mark Levinson marry Kim Cattrall?
To me, the biggest mystery in the world of high end audio will always be this:
How did that little nebbish Mark Levinson marry Kim Cattrall?
I almost lost my coffee:lol1: :lol1:
patrisVII
10-09-2007, 07:15 AM
Jay,
I'm going to chime in here, Accidental Chef is one of my good friends and he uses the Valhalla cables you mentioned in one of your earlier posts. I am no audiophile, the best speakers I have are the crappy ones that hook up to my computer. But I have heard his system with those cables and without. I didn't want to believe it, I could even hear a difference. I think it's crazy, but I could hear it. The cables actually make a real difference.
I've noticed a difference with every interconnect I've used (not so much with speaker cable though and I've never tried with power cords).
I don't care for Nordost stuff myself. I've had two of their mid range cables in my system and they just were not to my taste.
I started making my own cables about 10 years ago and I drove myself crazy trying different recipes. I finally settled on 20 ga magnet wire, lightly twisted for speaker cables and either 24 ga free hanging wire or these Grados (http://hcmaudio.com/comp.asp?compID=556) if I'm lazy, as they sound great and cause no aggravation.
All that said, I just laugh at busy body skeptics out to save folks from themselves. Do they actually think they are going to change the mind of anyone who is in the market for $10K speaker wire? And people say audiophiles are jousting at windmills.
AccidentalChef
10-09-2007, 09:31 AM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/77/152849355_891aae2c99_o.jpg
There's my main addiction. The picture is a bit older. It was taken before my cable upgrades, and I've gotten new amp stands (with a matching one for the CD player) since then.
Here's the component list, for those interested:
Audio Aero Capitole MK2 CD player
Lamm M2.1 hybrid monoblock amplifiers
Revel Ultima Studio speakers
It's a nice simple system. The CD player has an integrated tube preamp, so it can drive the amplifiers directly. It also has plenty of digital inputs, which are great for connecting things like my Playstation. :biggrin: Even without surround sound, it's great for movies and games.
As for hitting Tim's liquor cabinet, I wouldn't mind that at all... it's probably my fault he has a good amount of it. :lol:
Well, if you have Revel speakers (love 'em- one of my favorite dynamic systems) you got the "Levinson joke".
Lamm is made by an interesting guy around the corner from where my mom used to live in Brooklyn. He makes some of the best amps and line stages I've ever seen.
You have yourself one helluva system there.:thumbup1:
jazzman
10-09-2007, 10:34 AM
To me, the biggest mystery in the world of high end audio will always be this:
How did that little nebbish Mark Levinson marry Kim Cattrall?
She has "big ears."
Rorschuck
10-09-2007, 05:31 PM
Check this page out:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#thetruth
This is from the guy who pioneered McIntosh loudspeakers, an audio engineerr of over 30 years.
The link jumps to a specific section of a page; the whole thing is worth reading.
Jay,
I'm going to chime in here, Accidental Chef is one of my good friends and he uses the Valhalla cables you mentioned in one of your earlier posts. I am no audiophile, the best speakers I have are the crappy ones that hook up to my computer. But I have heard his system with those cables and without. I didn't want to believe it, I could even hear a difference. I think it's crazy, but I could hear it. The cables actually make a real difference.
I feel most cables are all hype but have had a few out of the many I have tried change the sound good or bad depends on your ears. Nordost is one that did for me only had Red Dawns but I did not like the sound paired with my Logans way to bright.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/77/152849355_891aae2c99_o.jpg
There's my main addiction. The picture is a bit older. It was taken before my cable upgrades, and I've gotten new amp stands (with a matching one for the CD player) since then.
Here's the component list, for those interested:
Audio Aero Capitole MK2 CD player
Lamm M2.1 hybrid monoblock amplifiers
Revel Ultima Studio speakers
It's a nice simple system. The CD player has an integrated tube preamp, so it can drive the amplifiers directly. It also has plenty of digital inputs, which are great for connecting things like my Playstation. :biggrin: Even without surround sound, it's great for movies and games.
As for hitting Tim's liquor cabinet, I wouldn't mind that at all... it's probably my fault he has a good amount of it. :lol:
You need a tuner. :lol:
TimmyBoston
10-16-2007, 03:56 AM
(And where EXACTLY does Tim hide his liquor cabinet? :lol: )
It's in the Bat Cave.
Mr. Gillette
10-18-2007, 06:48 PM
[QUOTE=ouch;333390]:lol:
Of course, I meant to say un-labeled LP"s. You can't even blink on this site.
[/ QUOTE]
As a music major enrolled in a "Humanities" course in the 1970's...I would come to class early and memorize the order of the tracks on the LP the prof had on the turntable. The class was a huge section, about 500, and I could see pretty much where he dropped the needle. The guy thought I was a friggin' genius! He finally asked me how I could absorb so many styles, and I pointed out that (1) he shouldn't leave the jacket on the chalk tray up front and (2) don't leave the LP side on the turntable.
As for the $7200 cables...they would be fine if they came along with George Solti, Enrico Caruso, Sir Thomas Beecham, Arturo Toscanni, Frank Sinatra and the Beatles to give encouraging commentary on the sound quality.
i've found discussions like this fascinating for some time because imo psychology plays such a huge role.
YMMV and personal taste is large -- i fault no one for expressing theirs.
however to me the really interesting part is when double blind evaluation is used to put products and claims to the test.
years ago one of the mags did this with interconnects and the panel of experts could not tell one from the other.
similar test was done pitting multi-thousand $$ leica camera lenses against few hundred $$ pentax lenses. same result.
experts doing a double blind evaluation of beer rated inexpensive american made old milwaukee higher than some expensive european imports.
i've also heard tales of putting blindfolds on pianists and guitar players and noting their inability to tell the difference between instruments, and/or choosing the low priced spread over the megabucks prestige instrument.
maybe it is time to do one of these tests with shaving materials?:smile: how does someone shave with a Str8 while blindfolded?:biggrin:
no doubt that some people have developed a very high level of discriminatory ability and can discern (and appreciate) fine nuances of detail. i think that in all hobbies more people THINK that they have this ability than those who actually DO have this ability. but to fit in they have to start talking the talk.
Labarum
10-22-2007, 07:35 AM
A British manucturer of world renown once turned up at a HiFi Show to demonstrate their famous electrostatic loudspeakers, and connected them up to the amp with a Black and Decker (bright orange) extention lead.
Are Black and Decker known in USA? They make electic drills and other power tools, lawn mowers, strimmers . . .
and . . . power extention leads!
It was a classic British "two fingers" at the silly side of HiFi.
http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/index.php#
sparkchaser
10-22-2007, 08:06 AM
A British manucturer of world renown once turned up at a HiFi Show to demonstrate their famous electrostatic loudspeakers, and connected them up to the amp with a Black and Decker (bright orange) extention lead.
Are Black and Decker known in USA? They make electic drills and other power tools, lawn mowers, strimmers . . .
and . . . power extention leads!
http://blackanddeckercords.com/general_purpose.htm
I guess I am confused. A Black & Decker extension cord would be a heavy duty, 16AWG copper cable. Nothing amiss with that at all.
Labarum
10-22-2007, 09:13 AM
A Black & Decker extension cord would be a heavy duty, 16AWG copper cable. Nothing amiss with that at all.
Nothing at all. Perfectly fit for purpose. Without the marketing hike and the hefty price tag.
Rorschuck
10-22-2007, 09:37 AM
http://blackanddeckercords.com/general_purpose.htm
I guess I am confused. A Black & Decker extension cord would be a heavy duty, 16AWG copper cable. Nothing amiss with that at all.
I think that was the manufacturer's point; simple, standard heavy-gauge wire is all that is needed. No fancy shielding, no "oxygen free" monikers, no "now with magic impedence threshold filters" claims; just plain old copper wire is the best you can get.
MickM
10-22-2007, 09:49 AM
Perceived value.
You can take something like a shaving creme. Put it in a store and charge $10 for it. If all the other cremes are $20 - $30, you may not sell the creme at $10 cause everybody thinks if it's that cheap it can't be good.
There is no way these cables are can be worth the amount. Period.
Personally, I say good luck to the seller. If they sucker even one person into buying these, it's the buyer's fault not the seller's. That's the modern version of natural selection.
masonjarjar
10-22-2007, 10:22 AM
Perceived value.
You can take something like a shaving creme. Put it in a store and charge $10 for it. If all the other cremes are $20 - $30, you may not sell the creme at $10 cause everybody thinks if it's that cheap it can't be good.
There is no way these cables are can be worth the amount. Period.
Personally, I say good luck to the seller. If they sucker even one person into buying these, it's the buyer's fault not the seller's. That's the modern version of natural selection.
This is Marketing 101. While many people won't spend over a certain amount, just as many won't spend UNDER a certain amount. They don't want to feel like they're "slumming" or getting an inferior product.
Check out this MP3 podcast about Starbucks. Very enlightening. Listen if you have time, the MP3 goes into more detail than the article..
http://www.slate.com/id/2133754/
The practice is hundreds of years old. The French economist Emile Dupuit wrote about the early days of the railways, when third-class carriages were built without roofs, even though roofs were cheap: "What the company is trying to do is prevent the passengers who can pay the second-class fare from traveling third class; it hits the poor, not because it wants to hurt them, but to frighten the rich."
"What the company is trying to do is prevent the passengers who can pay the second-class fare from traveling third class; it hits the poor, not because it wants to hurt them, but to frighten the rich."
That's a brilliant quote.
Is an Aston Martin a better car than a Mercedes Benz? Absolutely not. There will always be people who are willing to pay disproportionately more for items that are hand made and of limited production. They are willing to pay amounts that may be considered by others as absurd for exclusivity, and that's fine.
The trouble occurs when people ascribe magical powers to their purchases. If you want to buy a solid gold toilet, god bless. But if you go on to claim that using said toilet eases the pain of constipation, well, then you're just nuts. A person who buys a megabuck wristwatch is not under the delusion that his timepiece keeps better time than a simple Timex. If someone wants to pay a premium for exotic audio cabling because it is made from rare and expensive materials and incorporates cutting edge manufacturing techniques that are extremely costly, by all means knock yourself out.
But if you claim to have made such a purchase because it delivers extraordinary and otherwise unattainable results, then your purchase was for naught if it fails to deliver, and this is easily verifiable.
jazzman
10-22-2007, 10:56 AM
If someone wants to pay a premium for exotic audio cabling because it is made from rare and expensive materials and incorporates cutting edge manufacturing techniques that are extremely costly, by all means knock yourself out.
But if you claim to have made such a purchase because it delivers extraordinary and otherwise unattainable results, then your purchase was for naught if it fails to deliver, and this is easily verifiable.
But golly gee, Uncle Ouch, Stereophile Magazine tells us that double-blind studies don't work for solid gold toilet seats, and that the only accurate way to determine their value is prolonged use within a familiar system. Could they be wrong?
But golly gee, Uncle Ouch, Stereophile Magazine tells us that double-blind studies don't work for solid gold toilet seats, and that the only accurate way to determine their value is prolonged use within a familiar system. Could they be wrong?
In this case, I think they're right. You need time to convince yourself that you hear a difference. :wacko:
In this case, I think they're right. You need time to convince yourself that you hear a difference. :wacko:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: , There goes the water all over the desk again, would you stop that crap:lol:
TimmyBoston
10-22-2007, 08:59 PM
i've found discussions like this fascinating for some time because imo psychology plays such a huge role.
YMMV and personal taste is large -- i fault no one for expressing theirs.
however to me the really interesting part is when double blind evaluation is used to put products and claims to the test.
years ago one of the mags did this with interconnects and the panel of experts could not tell one from the other.
similar test was done pitting multi-thousand $$ leica camera lenses against few hundred $$ pentax lenses. same result.
experts doing a double blind evaluation of beer rated inexpensive american made old milwaukee higher than some expensive european imports.
i've also heard tales of putting blindfolds on pianists and guitar players and noting their inability to tell the difference between instruments, and/or choosing the low priced spread over the megabucks prestige instrument.
maybe it is time to do one of these tests with shaving materials?:smile: how does someone shave with a Str8 while blindfolded?:biggrin:
no doubt that some people have developed a very high level of discriminatory ability and can discern (and appreciate) fine nuances of detail. i think that in all hobbies more people THINK that they have this ability than those who actually DO have this ability. but to fit in they have to start talking the talk.
I'm a clinical psychology graduate student and on the whole, I have to seriously disagree with this. In some cases, the psychology does override, some products are truly identical, (generic vs brand name OTC medication, bottled vs. tap water, etc) but not in most cases. In many cases, you get what you pay for, especially with high end products.
Personally, my stereo are the cheap $30 speakers that hook up to my computer and I don't care to get anything better for me, that's all I need, but I've been around enough truly high end products in a variety of areas and usually those better made, more expensive products are a huge difference.
I'd appreciate it if you could cite some of these studies where professional musicians have been duped by cheap instruments, because to be honest, that sounds highly suspicious to me.
I'm a clinical psychology graduate student and on the whole, I have to seriously disagree with this. In some cases, the psychology does override, some products are truly identical, (generic vs brand name OTC medication, bottled vs. tap water, etc) but not in most cases. In many cases, you get what you pay for, especially with high end products.
Personally, my stereo are the cheap $30 speakers that hook up to my computer and I don't care to get anything better for me, that's all I need, but I've been around enough truly high end products in a variety of areas and usually those better made, more expensive products are a huge difference.
I'd appreciate it if you could cite some of these studies where professional musicians have been duped by cheap instruments, because to be honest, that sounds highly suspicious to me.
I am with you tim on the Instruments
I can't imagine an accomplished musician not being able to discern a difference between different instruments, just as almost anyone can distinguish between two audio systems.
That's a far cry from distinguishing beteen individual components, let alone power cords.
I can't imagine an accomplished musician not being able to discern a difference between different instruments, just as almost anyone can distinguish between two audio systems.
That's a far cry from distinguishing beteen individual components, let alone power cords.
Boy Jay did Paul at PS Audio piss you off or something:lol:
If I recall correctly, PS has a device to generate your own AC power.
The top Levinson amps do the same. Hard to get cleaner power than that. Of course, someone will suggest that you still need a special power cord to plug into that. :lol:
farace
10-23-2007, 07:11 PM
I can't imagine an accomplished musician not being able to discern a difference between different instruments, just as almost anyone can distinguish between two audio systems.
That's a far cry from distinguishing beteen individual components, let alone power cords.
Reminds me of a comparison test I read about once, done a long time ago. An audio system and a live band were behind a curtain. Supposedly an audience was unable to tell the difference between them. The audio "system" was, IIRC, a Victrola Orthophonic. Makes me wonder how thick the curtain was.
If I recall correctly, PS has a device to generate your own AC power.
The top Levinson amps do the same. Hard to get cleaner power than that. Of course, someone will suggest that you still need a special power cord to plug into that. :lol:
PS Audio, Levinson - PS Audio, Levinson - PS Audio, Levinson
PS Audio, Levinson - PS Audio, Levinson - PS Audio, Levinson
Oh alright I will take the Levinson and use a lamp power cord:biggrin1:
I can't imagine an accomplished musician not being able to discern a difference between different instruments, just as almost anyone can distinguish between two audio systems.
That's a far cry from distinguishing beteen individual components, let alone power cords.
TB i'll see if i can find a link, but unlikely as i'm referring to what i've read in various forums over the years.
>i've also heard tales of putting blindfolds on pianists and guitar players and noting their inability to tell the difference between instruments, and/or choosing the low priced spread over the megabucks prestige instrument.
no doubt that some people have developed a very high level of discriminatory ability and can discern (and appreciate) fine nuances of detail. i think that in all hobbies more people THINK that they have this ability than those who actually DO have this ability. but to fit in they have to start talking the talk.<
note that i allow that undoubtably there ARE accomplished musicians (or audiophiles) who CAN discriminate. however i believe that there are many more who think that they can discriminate yet that emperor has no clothes.
TB as a trained psychologist you don't think the power of suggestion plays a role? have you ever shopped for a piano, or a new car?:smile: has your class studied the placebo effect yet?
In this case, I think they're right. You need time to convince yourself that you hear a difference. :wacko:
As a Ph.D. and former audiophile (I lost most of my hearing) who subscribed to Stereophile mag for years, I've always disagreed with their refusal to use double blind reviews. It's easy enough to do: The reviewer will listen to their usual system and using the double blind technique they'll then listen to the same system with the new component.
I found that switching expensive cables to very expensive solid silver cables yielded a difference in sound, but not necessarily a better sound. But then again, my ears weren't golden by any means.
castlecraver
10-24-2007, 07:09 AM
no doubt that some people have developed a very high level of discriminatory ability and can discern (and appreciate) fine nuances of detail. i think that in all hobbies more people THINK that they have this ability than those who actually DO have this ability. but to fit in they have to start talking the talk.<
note that i allow that undoubtably there ARE accomplished musicians (or audiophiles) who CAN discriminate. however i believe that there are many more who think that they can discriminate yet that emperor has no clothes.
I agree to an extent... this discussion has brought me to read through some of the old audiophile forum/magazine archives just for a chuckle. And it seems to me the difference between the type of audiophiles who (rightfully) get derided and say... myself as a wetshaver is that I could probably bring myself to go with one setup for the rest of my life if it came to that, or at least go with one cream/soap until it ran out. It seems that for the frustrated audiophile, however, that what they have is never perfect enough -- that if only they had the $995 power supply, a $200 per stone set of Shaktis, or a $7200 set of cables, that their behemoth of a system would finally be able to provide them pure sensory nirvana.... until the next latest and greatest four-figure flux capacitor hits the market and their system is second-rate crap again.
Labarum
10-24-2007, 07:21 AM
The law of diminishing returns bites as in all things. The secret is to know where the knee of the curve is; and spend only to the point at which the effect really takes off, provided, of course, you can afford to spend to that level.
There are some surprises though. When he was quite young my son took up the Cello. I was surprised to be told the bow had as much influence on the quality of the sound achievable as the instrument itself. In a large Violin Shop in Bristol we selected a cello with the help of his teacher then went upstairs to the bow room. Four bows were selected by the teacher as possible, and placed in front of him. He was asked to try them and rank them - he ranked them by price - at 9 years old! He was choosing the best bow for him - just so happened the most expensive was the best.
More interestingly some string players spend more on their bows than their instruments. All very odd.
---
Musicians might not be the best judges of HiFi - they don't always hear what their ears are hearing, but a composite of remembered performances and an ideal that exists only in their mind.
A real master will "hear" a whole orchestra as the score is read. Not a real sound to be heard!
Mr. Gillette
10-24-2007, 07:55 AM
[QUOTE=tm3;347790]TB i'll see if i can find a link, but unlikely as i'm referring to what i've read in various forums over the years.
>i've also heard tales of putting blindfolds on pianists and guitar players and noting their inability to tell the difference between instruments, and/or choosing the low priced spread over the megabucks prestige instrument.
no doubt that some people have developed a very high level of discriminatory ability and can discern (and appreciate) fine nuances of detail. i think that in all hobbies more people THINK that they have this ability than those who actually DO have this ability. but to fit in they have to start talking the talk.<
This comparison leaves out the important thing...the connection of the human to the instrument, which is a HUGE thing, as opposed to the simple sound that it produces.
When the pianist or guitar is blindfolded, they're not only hearing it, but they are involved in the MAKING of the sound...they are receiving feedback from the fingers as to the response of the action of the piano, the feel of the pedals, the response of the strings on the guitar, etc. A wind player is feeling resistance/flow, response, etc...all of these things.
These players are not sitting passively (or actively) listening to a pre-produced sound coming at them from a speaker. To make your comparison work, the listener would have to be somehow active in the sound-making.
Ever listened to a recording of your voice? Weren't you surprised at how different it sounded from "outside" your head? It's typical-- and musicians have to be concious of "both" sounds-- the one they hear (and usually "feel) and the one the audience or the microphone hears.
As for the quality of instruments...in general, you get what you pay for, but not always. I have played brass instruments, for example, very expensive ones, top of the line professional quality ones, even with successive serial numbers that have varied wildly from "great" to "awful" to "just okay". But ultimately, the instrument has to become an extention of my lips, my lungs, my ears, and my concepts-- and it has to be acceptable to the people I play with/for and to the audience.
As with stereos, there is a certain amount of "Emperor's new clothes" in the world of musical instruments. I have seen people pay big money to have a trumpet cryogenically frozen to "align the molecules", and gimmicks come along each year, some good, some not so good.
I could also probably pick up a $200.00 instrument at Walmart and make it sound better than many people on a $4,000.00 instrument that looks no different to 99% of the public. But since I stake my livlihood on what is "perceived" by the listener, why would I take chances on something that can't perform.
And finally...that's really why LIVE MUSIC is better! My stereo is decidedly on the cheap, because there's no way...none at all...that the finest stereo can remotely compete with hearing a fine ensemble like my beloved CSO blast the hell out of the back row of Orchestra Hall!
jazzman
10-24-2007, 10:19 AM
Two points that are completely unrelated to each other:
(1) My experience with musicians is that they can hear much more detail in live music, including the quality of the instruments, than the rest of us, but they don't seem to care much about the quality of their stereos. I think this is because they hear recorded music differently than we do--they can fill in the blanks in their heads, and therefore don't need the $7200 cables or solid gold toilets.
(2) As nutty as some audiophiles seem, such as becoming dissatisfied with their systems each time a new product comes out, they push the industry into making better products for us mere mortals. The best example I can think of is the atrocious quality of CDs when they hit the market in the mid-1980's versus the remastered versions of the same old recordings or some new recordings that sound very good. If those guys had not complained, the quality would not have improved.
MotoMike
10-24-2007, 10:23 PM
The magazines have reviewers that speak of qualities in a device, any device. It could be bicycles, motorcycles, cars and stereos. There in they perceive these desirable qualities. If you are not careful of the emperors clothes syndrome, you will perceive the same qualities. Since the price of admission, means you have an investment in a proper positive outcome, it is hard to be honest, even with yourself. After all you don’t want to look stupid for laying down $7K for 4 pieces of wire do you? I would not trust myself to glean the difference if I knew which cables were connected. You can’t discount the psychological component here. After all, how can these substantial, ultra cool, uber-expensive cables not be better?
It would take the rare person to say they don't sound better than the monster cables they replaced.
There are always things that escape your scrutiny, but from my stand point, I don’t buy it.
If you take a snap shot of what is happening at any given moment you will find that one speaker lead at the amp the potential is positive at the same instant the other speaker lead will be equal in value (voltage) but opposite in polarity. In my training current flows from negative to positive. So it will flow from the most negative terminal, through the wire to the speaker. There are actually networks of filters in a speaker that will channel the current to the various speakers based on the frequency of the signal, but for simplicity sake, let’s consider one speaker with no network. The current would continue from where it enters the speaker enclosure through the voice coil and then exit the speaker through the other wire to the positive most terminal on the amp. This is a series circuit. Current in series is common, in other words current measured anywhere along that circuit will be the same for this snap shot of time. Current in a circuit is determined by the voltage applied (amplitude or volume) and the resistance of the circuit. Voltage divided by resistance =current. Resistance in series is additive, so you would add all the resistance of all the components that the current must go through to determine the resistance. Resistance of heavy gauge speaker wire like monster cables is very low. Probably below 1 ohm. The $7000 cables will certainly be lower, but I doubt it would be significant. If you consider the size of the wire that is in the speaker coils, it will be very small relative to the speaker cable. It will be where almost all the resistance in the circuit lies. That is the way you want it, because current squared times resistance=power. In theory you want all your resistance to be in the speakers so that all the power produces sound. Any resistance in your cables will eat up power in the form of heat. But with cables the size of monster cables the loss will be low. That small wire in the voice coils is also where the current limit exists. Too much current and you will heat those wires to the point that you will melt them and cause an open so that no current can pass and no sound will result. This will happen way before the speaker wire is taxed. Incidentally that is why I recommend fusing your speakers.
In reality it is more complex than that as we are looking at a frozen nanosecond in time. When the system is in action, there are reactive forces at work which will result in a sort of dynamic resistance known as capacitive reactance (Xc) and inductive reactance (XL). Basically these reactances change in opposite directions with frequency. And since music is always changing in amplitude and polarity and is a composite of numerous frequencies, it gets very complicated. additionally the filter network in the speakers is composed of capacitors and inductors in varying degrees of complexity in series and parallel and series parallel configurations designed to get your woofer to woof while blocking that low frequency from the mid and tweeter. As I said it gets complex.
But most of that complexity exists on each end of the speaker wire. What happens in the connecting cables is the simplest part. There is capacitance and inductance in the connecting cables, but at audio frequencies, it is not the big problem it is at radio frequencies.
In theory the big expensive wires are better, but in practice, I would find it hard to believe that they make a difference. The double blind tests that never seem to get done would be very interesting to see.
Regards
Mike
DirtyDave
10-25-2007, 04:50 AM
I agree to an extent... this discussion has brought me to read through some of the old audiophile forum/magazine archives just for a chuckle. And it seems to me the difference between the type of audiophiles who (rightfully) get derided and say... myself as a wetshaver is that I could probably bring myself to go with one setup for the rest of my life if it came to that, or at least go with one cream/soap until it ran out. It seems that for the frustrated audiophile, however, that what they have is never perfect enough -- that if only they had the $995 power supply, a $200 per stone set of Shaktis, or a $7200 set of cables, that their behemoth of a system would finally be able to provide them pure sensory nirvana.... until the next latest and greatest four-figure flux capacitor hits the market and their system is second-rate crap again.
This whole discussion made me think of an old customer I had when I sold audio equipment. This was, sheesh, 20 plus years ago. From me he bought a pair of DCM speakers and I don't remember all that he had. Whlle it was not necessarily a dream system, but he did not scrimp on any component, either. The equipment was a means to an end for him and that was to play his amazing collection of jazz.
He invited me to his basement on day to see his system and his collection. I knew he was fan, but I had no idea what a fanatic he was until I saw his collection. It was the sort of collection the Smithsonian would be happy to have and catalog. It was that extensive. He had everything from old 78's to CDs. Sweet, hot, swing, bop, be-bop, cool, big band, New Orleans, Kansas City, east coast, west coast, Detroit, Chicago, European, you name the artist, style, whatever, he had it.
I can see why he spent most of his life working two jobs. One to feed his family and one to feed his passion, jazz.
Of the equipment he purchased, it was just a delivery mechanism for his musical passion. Of it he would just say that he did not hear the components, he heard the music. He was at the point of diminishing returns. To add anything "better" would have made little difference.
To me, he had it exactly right.
In my training current flows from negative to positive.
Current is defined as going from positive to negative. In fact, when this definition was first adopted, the electron had not yet been discovered. It was only later that it became understood that electrons flow from negative to positive, but current is still considered positive to negative.
Resistance of heavy gauge speaker wire like monster cables is very low. Probably below 1 ohm. The $7000 cables will certainly be lower, but I doubt it would be significant.
Wire is rated in Ohms per foot, or something similar. A typical cable would have to be hundreds of feet long to be 1 Ohm. As for the megabuck cable having a lower resistance, not necessarily. Many of these companies don't even provide the wire gauge in their specs. A 10 gauge cheap cord will have less resistance than the highest priced 16 gauge length of unobtanium.
Nice post. :thumbup1:
MotoMike
10-25-2007, 07:14 AM
thanks Ouch.
Yeah, I know that there are different understandings on current flow. I learned in the USN and taught electronics for about 6 years. So it is just easiest for me to analyze a circuit doing it my way. in truth either way works just fine. the only bugaboo is remembering to reverse the meaning of semiconductor symbols and certain polarity sensative capacitors. so for me.... old dog new tricks sort of thing.
I could have gone on, but realized that I had already written more than will probably be read at the end of a several page long thread.
Regards,
Mike
You're right, Mike. It's just a convention.
The magazines have reviewers that speak of qualities in a device, any device. It could be bicycles, motorcycles, cars and stereos. There in they perceive these desirable qualities. If you are not careful of the emperors clothes syndrome, you will perceive the same qualities. Since the price of admission, means you have an investment in a proper positive outcome, it is hard to be honest, even with yourself. After all you don’t want to look stupid for laying down $7K for 4 pieces of wire do you? I would not trust myself to glean the difference if I knew which cables were connected. You can’t discount the psychological component here. After all, how can these substantial, ultra cool, uber-expensive cables not be better?
reminds me of yet another comparo i read maybe a year ago in one of the car mags. by every measure they applied (acceleration, cornering, braking, etc.) a $35k subaru performed virtually identically to a $90k porsche.
could you tell them apart blindfolded? wait, don't try that one!:biggrin:
sparkchaser
10-25-2007, 12:52 PM
could you tell them apart blindfolded? wait, don't try that one!:biggrin:
Absolutely, positively without a doubt.
reminds me of yet another comparo i read maybe a year ago in one of the car mags. by every measure they applied (acceleration, cornering, braking, etc.) a $35k subaru performed virtually identically to a $90k porsche.
Identical, except in the ability to pick up chicks.
castlecraver
10-26-2007, 08:47 AM
Heck, maybe you really need special ear surgery to truly appreciate the subtitle nuances of your music. Hmm... I'm taking that idea. Patent pending. I'll call it Auditory Response Surgical Enhancement or "ARSE" for short. I bet you could totally sell that to some of these people.
How right I was....
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/10/26/cosmetic-surgeon-wil.html
txengineer
12-28-2007, 04:55 PM
I've been a hardcore audio nut since the '70s. I've owned several systems, and still spend hours listening to vinyl through tube amplification. I've even subscribed to the "high end" publications for the last couple of decades. But when I see multi-thousand dollar interconnects, "intelligent chips", magic stones, and DBT(double blind testing)-Free zones on web forums, I have to marvel at ease with which people can be separated from their money. As H.L. Mencken said, "It is impossible to underestimate the intelligence of the American public". :rolleyes:
Now where did I leave that bottle of Louis XIII cognac? :blushing:
TimmyBoston
12-28-2007, 09:13 PM
One thing also to consider is that someone has $100,000+ stereo, 7k is the sales tax on their system. If some has invested as much in a stereo as many people have in their house, I certainly understand a few more grand in cables that might impove their quality, because that right sound is very important to them.
I don't really understand the tone of this thread, especially from a bunch of guys many of whom have hundred of dollars of shaving brushes :biggrin: , or someone like me who not only has the shaving brushes but also thousands of dollars worth of whisky :a54: . If someone wants to spend that money to try to improve a stereo that costs more than the vast majority of people make in a year they obviously have the money and that's their choice, regardless of whether they are geekier than we are. :biggrin:
Grim Reaper
12-31-2007, 12:42 AM
Almost nobody understands what cables actually do. That includes the people selling them. All a cable does is move electricity. For that, you need good metals, good contacts, and great shielding.
castlecraver
12-31-2007, 07:09 AM
I certainly understand a few more grand in cables that might impove their quality, because that right sound is very important to them. ...
I don't really understand the tone of this thread, especially from a bunch of guys many of whom have hundred of dollars of shaving brushes
I'd completely agree if it weren't for the fact that it's rather dubious whether such an investment actually improves anything.
Almost nobody understands what cables actually do. That includes the people selling them. All a cable does is move electricity. For that, you need good metals, good contacts, and great shielding.
The people who sell them know one thing for certain- they represent (along with the other mystical add ons) the highest markup of any part of the the system they're selling.
If you're referring to what's going on inside the cables, much of the codification (by Maxwell) predates the discovery of the electron itself.
MCsommerreid
12-31-2007, 10:16 AM
I don't think I could build cables of reasonable length that approached $7000, even using stranded oxygen free silver and milled platinum jacks.
sweetzen
01-04-2008, 03:56 PM
I'd completely agree if it weren't for the fact that it's rather dubious whether such an investment actually improves anything.
For me, here's the test: If it's about sound quality, then the person installs these things and never tells another living soul that there are $7,200 speaker wires in the system. If he thinks it's about the listening experience, then the only thing that matters is the sound. OTOH, if he likes to tell people about his $7,200 wires, and rattles off the data from the maker's promotional materials, then it's really about bragging rights. The wires are nothing more than a status symbol.
This pretty much applies to any hobbies. Either it's about the enjoyment of the thing, or it's about the social status conferred by being associated with it (in which case, the real hobby is status seeking itself). Not that one hobby is better than the other, but when it comes to very expensive hobbies, motive certainly plays a part.
"If you want to know the purpose behind something, look at the results."
2bits
01-05-2008, 10:03 AM
After years in the music business and recording studio equipment and hifi markets I think the best advice for any noob enthusiast is to get your hearing checked (usually free in Canada) it will save you $$$ thousands and inform your decisions so you make better music and hear music better.
... & keep hearing longer.
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