Is a Belgian Enough

[A.de.Lioncourt]

First off, I have received my first new straight razor, a snakewood handled Thiers Issard. :thumbup:

But on to the post, I have been trying to determine exactly what i wish to purchase to hone this. After reading about the cutting qualities of the Belgian coticule slurry, I wonder if it would be sufficient to use this stone with a slurry to achieve the bevel and without to finish the edge before stropping.

Is a Norton 4/8k or something similar a necessity?

[Suzuki]

First off, I have received my first new straight razor, a snakewood handled Thiers Issard. :thumbup:

But on to the post, I have been trying to determine exactly what i wish to purchase to hone this. After reading about the cutting qualities of the Belgian coticule slurry, I wonder if it would be sufficient to use this stone with a slurry to achieve the bevel and without to finish the edge before stropping.

Or, do I need a norton 4/8k or somethign similar?

Are you talking about a blue (roughly comparable to a 4k) or yellow (roughly comparable to a 8k) Belgian.

My understanding is that the slurry is important to any waterstone and that it both speeds the cutting action and actually gives a smoother/more polished edge.

If you want to use Belgians to hone your razors, I would get both a blue and yellow - blue to start and yellow to finish.

You could just go with the yellow, but it will take much longer than if you also had a blue or some other stone around 4k grit.

[A.de.Lioncourt]

I was speaking of the yellow stone, and from my reading, some people use it dry as a finer grit to polish the edge since the garnet edges would only be somewhat exposed. They also seem to describe the slurry as very fast cutting, but you think perhaps that it would still be too slow for practical use?

[MarSellus Wallace]

First off, I have received my first new straight razor, a snakewood handled Thiers Issard. :thumbup:

But on to the post, I have been trying to determine exactly what i wish to purchase to hone this. After reading about the cutting qualities of the Belgian coticule slurry, I wonder if it would be sufficient to use this stone with a slurry to achieve the bevel and without to finish the edge before stropping.

Is a Norton 4/8k or something similar a necessity?

Let me put it otherwise, a Belgian is more than you can handle :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Congratulations on a very fine cut throat. Could you post us a pic? I have a TI with snakewood scales too, but they were a retrofit to a 5/8 Fox and Rooster with the crafted back.

I'm afraid I can't help you on the honing though. I'm using a DOVO paddle strop with red paste.That should be your first purchase, really, not a honing stone (correct me if I'm wrong).

[A.de.Lioncourt]

Thank you for the advice, and I certainly will post a picture of the razor. I was a little wary of using just strops and pastes as I have read as well that they apt to cause uneven wear. Perhaps its just paranoia, but I feel better about having a solid flat surface on which to hone. I intend, barring better advice, to use a Norton 4/8k or a Belgian Blue & Yellow stones with the back of the razor taped to preserve it. I know there are a lot more expensive razors out there, but I am in love with the beauty of the snake wood and polished blade.:001_wub:

[BrianP]

First off, I have received my first new straight razor, a snakewood handled Thiers Issard. :thumbup:

But on to the post, I have been trying to determine exactly what i wish to purchase to hone this. After reading about the cutting qualities of the Belgian coticule slurry, I wonder if it would be sufficient to use this stone with a slurry to achieve the bevel and without to finish the edge before stropping.

Is a Norton 4/8k or something similar a necessity?

Here's my newb opinion:

Have the razor honed by someone reputable so that you can feel how "shave ready" should feel. You can then focus on stropping and shaving. This should keep you going for quite some time barring messing up the edge while stropping.

For touching up the razor, you could go with a Belgian Coticule (yellow) or a pasted strop (I've never used one, but there seems to be a lot of love for the green chromium dioxide paste).

If you're new to honing, get a razor that you're not afraid to mess up to safely practice.

[william]

For what it's worth I use a two sided Loom Strop (Mastro Livi) green paste one side leather the other. It has a good firm feel to it and you can strop to your hearts content with it sitting on your knee. I do have a yellow belgium hone too but hardly use it. The loom strop is all you need for now, honing can come later.

Cheers:wink:

[A.de.Lioncourt]

Perhaps I should send it off to be sharpened.

I have a tendency to be over confident, but I have been sharpening knives for nearly 20 years, and razors don't seem to difficult. The angle is already set for you, and with the right caresses, a fine edge seems attainable.

I will also look into the loom strop as suggested, thanks a lot guys.

[heavydutysg135]

You should definately send this one off to be sharpened so you know what a sharp straight razor feels like to shave with. There are many people over at the SRP that have a lot of experience honing knifes (professional chefs) that I have a lot of trouble honing straight razors at first. The skill is absolutely not the same. After you have a sharp edge the belgian yellow and the skill of how to use it should be all that you would need to maintain the edge indefinately.

[jnich67]

I would say, from what I've read, that if you start with a shave ready razor, you can go for a very long time on just the yellow. If you are talking about dull razors, you probably want something a little more course to start out on.

Jordan

[Thebigspendur]

The Norton 4K/8K is the standard in straight razor care. With it you can do it all from minor chips in the edge through getting it shave ready. It is what you should initially get and master. After that you can play with coticules and more. If you have a razor that is already shave ready the coticule will maintain it as will pasted strops. Personally I find that when I use a pasted strop though the edge is great it just doesn't last as long as when I use a hone. Sometimes the easy way is not the best. I agree with the others initially send the razor out to be honed so you know what a truly sharp razor feels like and when you get it back don't strop it that way you won't dull the edge through improper stropping. Also remember that razor honing and knife honing are totally unrelated and require totally different skill sets. Many expert knife sharpeners to their amazement have real problems with razors.

[A.de.Lioncourt]

I will probably get both the Norton and Yellow Coticule stones, and I will definitely get the razor professionally honed.

Do you have any insights into the differences between sharpening razors and other blades. It would probably be very useful for a lot of people to have such a reference.

Thanks for your help.

[Bruce]

AdeL,

I am slowly becoming convinced that honing a razor is an art not just a craft. I can hone chisels, plane irons, and knives (even axes) well enough to shave hair off my arm or plane shavings you can read through. I can file saws, although there is little transfer there, but can I hone a razor? Nope. Have I tried? Yup. Did I get there once? Yup. Can I figure out how I got there? Nope. Do I have a bunch of hones? Yup. Do I know in what order to use them? Sorta. Does it seem to make much difference? Not really. Am I encouraged that I will get to razor-honing nirvana any time soon? Not so much.

In the meanwhile, I've sent a couple of razors off to Lynn for him to apply his art and I'm atttempting to wear out an old junker to see what I may be able to learn while beating my head against the Norton and coticule wall. I have also phoned my local honemeister to ask if he can show me how to step along the true path.

In short, I think there is nothing in common between honing a knife and honing a razor. The razor has an incredibly delicate edge and learning how to deal with that delicacy is the key, I think. Learning how to deal with frustration, meanwhile, is key for me.

best of luck, Bruce

[karkarta]

Bruce, if you are adept at knives, chisels, plane irons and the like, then a straight razor should be as easy, if not easier - after all, you don't have to worry about the angles.

Yet it is exactly this what causes most beginners to trip up. The problem is that it is a rare razor that when laid flat on the hone lies in such a way that the entire edge is in contact with the hone. Most razors have slightly curved edges, meaning that if you lay it on a flat surface, the edge contacts the surface precisely at a point. Thus, you can keep on stroking the razor on the hone till the cows come home and have no effect on the edge whatsoever.

Once you get this insight, it is merely a matter of ensuring proper, even contact of the entire edge with the hone. Do the marker test - take a permanent marker and blacken the edge of the razor, and give it one or two strokes on the hone and see where the hone contacts the edge.

Here's another tip: razor steels are supposedly harder than knives, chisels etc; in practice, the stronger steel should offset the thinner edge, and you should not have to worry about an overly "delicate" edge. In other words, delicacy is not necessarily the key. Proper hone-edge contact is.

Vijay

[Doc4]

Get that wonderful razor honed by a honemeister ... who is expert at it. (If you have not done so already.) This will get you several months (rough estimate) of only having to strop the razor before it needs honing again.

Get Lynn's DVD with plenty of instruction and (key) video. Classicshaving.com has them, as well as Lynn's honemeister services.

Get some cheap-o razors from e-bay to practice your honing on.

Ask lots of pertinent questions of the experts here in the Straight Razor forum, get lots of practice, and be careful with that wonderful TI. Remember, fools rush in ... :biggrin:

[Suzuki]

Get that wonderful razor honed by a honemeister ... who is expert at it. (If you have not done so already.) This will get you several months (rough estimate) of only having to strop the razor before it needs honing again.

Get Lynn's DVD with plenty of instruction and (key) video. Classicshaving.com has them, as well as Lynn's honemeister services.

Get some cheap-o razors from e-bay to practice your honing on.

Ask lots of pertinent questions of the experts here in the Straight Razor forum, get lots of practice, and be careful with that wonderful TI. Remember, fools rush in ... :biggrin:

+1

Practice on practice razors, not your best one(s).

It took me a long time to become a competent honer - and many dulled razors along the way.

Had I tried to hone my good razors when I was starting out, I would have done more damage than good.

[Kees]

If you buy a new razor probalby a yellow coticule is all you need. A 4/8k Norton is what most newbs start off with. If you want to buy a Belgian contact Howard Schechter (US distributor) as only the best quality Belgians give you a nice edge. Yellow coticules are finer than Nortons but with the Norton alone you can get a good enough edge.

If you want to learn how to hone: buy Lynn's DVD, if you want to know what a shave ready razor feels like: send it to Lynn and ask him to return it with the DVD. Start with a cheap practice razor on the Norton and get confident before you start honing the TI.

[ouch]

Perhaps I should send it off to be sharpened.

I have a tendency to be over confident, but I have been sharpening knives for nearly 20 years, and razors don't seem to difficult. The angle is already set for you, and with the right caresses, a fine edge seems attainable.

I will also look into the loom strop as suggested, thanks a lot guys.

One would think. :crying:

[A.de.Lioncourt]

Very nice tip about the magic marker Karkarta, I think many starting could find that very useful, and thank you all for your responses.

By the way, the TI is my first new razor, I have practiced honing somewhat with my grandfather's old Genco Henry's XX, a velvet Genco hone, and a Dovo strop.

I cannot say too much about it as the blade has nicks that prevent shaving with it. The edge however seems pretty good, I can get it to "pass" the hanging hair test with a little persuasion although I'm sure its not shave ready.

I just though it was time to step up to a good blade, and a good hone to test and refine my skills. I had actually been researching about straight razor shaving for three months before purchasing this TI.

It seems the smartest thing I can do now is send it off to be sharpened. If someone could tell the the handle of one of the honemeisters, I will send them a PM to get this done.

[Suzuki]

Where are you located?

[A.de.Lioncourt]

In fabulous Bowling Green, Kentucky, left at the Oak tree and right at the holler.

[Suzuki]

In fabulous Bowling Green, Kentucky, left at the Oak tree and right at the holler.

Well, so long as there's a pony express way-station nearby, you should have no trouble finding someone in the US to hone your razor up for you.

I've had several razors honed by Joe Chandler and been happy with the results, but there are lots of other folks here who hone razors - if you ask, I'm sure you'll get a bunch or recommendations.

[GsSixgun]

One thing I have to mention every time I see posts like these...
We are now, in this day and age, looked at as somewhat of an oddity because we actually use Straight razors to shave with, and actually OMG use a brush and real soap.... Why is that? Because a few decades back some smart guy at Gillette said "Gosh why would you spend the time and effort honing and stropping ,when you can just use our new and improved DE razor and buy blades that are already sharp from us" Then they said, "Gee guys why would you bother shaving with just one blade, when you could shave with 2-3-4-5 blades in one pass, then just throw it away" In there somewhere came the true laziness of canned shave cream also...
So every time I see a post saying "Honing is hard, impossible, only for the gifted, and why don't you just send it away" I cringe... Because I think learning to hone and strop is actually more fun than shaving and of course, the pride factor of feeling your hard earned edge on your face...as it snick's off hair... Just my rambling thoughts :001_unsur No offense meant to anybody....

Glen

[heavydutysg135]

One thing I have to mention every time I see posts like these...
We are now, in this day and age, looked at as somewhat of an oddity because we actually use Straight razors to shave with, and actually OMG use a brush and real soap.... Why is that? Because a few decades back some smart guy at Gillette said "Gosh why would you spend the time and effort honing and stropping ,when you can just use our new and improved DE razor and buy blades that are already sharp from us" Then they said, "Gee guys why would you bother shaving with just one blade, when you could shave with 2-3-4-5 blades in one pass, then just throw it away" In there somewhere came the true laziness of canned shave cream also...
So every time I see a post saying "Honing is hard, impossible, only for the gifted, and why don't you just send it away" I cringe... Because I think learning to hone and strop is actually more fun than shaving and of course, the pride factor of feeling your hard earned edge on your face...as it snick's off hair... Just my rambling thoughts :001_unsur No offense meant to anybody....

Glen

One thing I have to mention every time I see posts like these...
I really believe that we have essentially the same view on honing. I think that everyone who uses a straight razor should learn to hone their own razors eventually; if they don't I think that they are doing themselves a disservice. In my opinion the most rewarding aspect of straight razor shaving is the pride and sense of self-sufficiency that one gets when they get a BBS shave from a razor that they honed themself. Lynn compared this to catching your own fish, cooking it, and eating it. I also strongly believe that everyone who can learn to shave with a straight razor can also learn to hone as long as they are willing to put the time and effort into learning and perfecting the right technique, and learning to properly assess the sharpness of the blade.

The reason that I and most "experts" recommend sending at least one razor out to be honed by someone who knows what they are doing in the beginning is that it greatly increases the chance of the new user finding early success. This early success will make them much more likely to stick with straight razor shaving in the long run. As you probably know, shaving with a dull straight razor is a very miserable experience and will put off many new users. If a new user takes their razor to a stone then it is almost certain that they will not be able to get the razor anywhere near shave-ready in the beginning. I also feel that the learning curve for honing when a person finally decides to learn to hone will be greatly reduced if the person develops the proper shaving technique with a sharp razor and knows what it feels like to shave with a sharp razor.

[A.de.Lioncourt]

I am absolutely going to learn to hone. I agree with these guys though that a benchmark hone by someone with more experience would be very helpful, and also that the art should not be skimped upon. (See my quote)

Perhaps Straight razor users are a little crazy. I personally want to view mine as a companion, a fine instrument that will weather and age with me, something to be taken care of, something that can have a soul.

I actually started wet shaving almost 15 years ago when I was thirteen with my grandfather's Adjustable Gillette. He died a couple of months before I was born, and when my grandmother died a few years later when I was 11, I inherited his stuff.

I have always felt like it was special, like I was connected with my grandfather when I held it. Of course my parents thought I was crazy to use it, and of course I haven't gotten any better.

Maybe I should start a new thread about shaving memories with this post.

Thanks GsSixgun and heavydutysg135

[GsSixgun]

I am absolutely going to learn to hone. I agree with these guys though that a benchmark hone by someone with more experience would be very helpful, and also that the art should not be skimped upon. (See my quote)

Perhaps Straight razor users are a little crazy. I personally want to view mine as a companion, a fine instrument that will weather and age with me, something to be taken care of, something that can have a soul.
I actually started wet shaving almost 15 years ago when I was thirteen with my grandfather's Adjustable Gillette. He died a couple of months before I was born, and when my grandmother died a few years later when I was 11, I inherited his stuff.

I have always felt like it was special, like I was connected with my grandfather when I held it. Of course my parents thought I was crazy to use it, and of course I haven't gotten any better.
Maybe I should start a new thread about shaving memories with this post.

Thanks GsSixgun and heavydutysg135


So well stated... You have the essence of the straight razor right there
And heck were just talking about our morning shave :lol: :lol: :lol:
But I have never looked forward to my time in the morning like I do when I have a wicked sharp straight ready to go!!!:w00t:
Glen