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Nick
09-03-2007, 02:20 PM
Yesterday evening, many of you might have received an unsolicited email regarding Leisureguy, that read:


Subject: Leisureguy & Badger and Blade - The TRUTH

Michael (leisureguy) Ham has been banned!!!

I am sending this message as an email in case the mods monitor PM's.
Joel's post about the leisureguy is total rubbish. He was asked not to
post last month because he recommends Giovanni's sampler packs.

Taken from email conversations.

>From me to Michael:

"They don't like people posting about non letterK sampler packs, Hence no
fair sticky on all the sampler packs. They especially don't like posts
about Giovanni as he was banned. I know it was for good reason but I
don't think censorship has any place in a forum; in does kind of defeat
the object. I don't think they should ask you not to post either. If I
were you I would post anyway & see if they dare delete the thread. I
wonder what the other members would say about that."

>From Michael to me:

"Yeah, and the weird thing is that they're blaming me (b&b mods) for a
conflict of
interest-when LetterK is a moderator and, I think, a force for not wanting
links to other suppliers of sampler packs.

I'm going to wait until September, then ask whether I can resume posting,
and on getting the okay, will immediately post that summary of the blade
sampler packs."

So leisure guy has been banned because he won't only recommend
letterk's pack. At lease that's my take on the whole thing. Please
tell as many other B&B members you know. We can't let the mods & Joel
cover this up. After all they can't ban all of us!!!

Anyone who knows Michael knows he's not affiliated with Giovanni & is
only offering his honest opinions.

Regards,
Anon
For starters, just for fun, I'd like to respond to this email as if it came from a member in good standing, and was genuine.

Firstly, John (letterk) runs the sampler pack as a service to B&B members. Just like the Decant Club, when operational, is a service to B&B. John and his wife bust their ass to package and ship off these sampler packs. The man has a full time job that is NOT shaving-related. Having met him and his family in person, I know him to be an honorable, truthful, and very generous guy. 'Anon' is flat out wrong about a bias against 'non-letterk' sampler packs, and Michael (if that truly is an email from him) is flat out wrong in his accusation that John is a force behind not wanting links to other suppliers of sampler packs. John has pretty much kept quiet in our discussions regarding Michael abusing the rules specifically to try and avoid any conflicts of interest, even though I know there is none. If there is any bias towards John's sampler packs, it is because all of the moderators know first hand that John is a man of character, and we have no problem endorsing his efforts 100%.

Now, with regards to the purported email from Michael to 'Anon', which, I have no evidence that it is indeed genuine, but knowing the situation, I do believe it to be so. Anon, I hope you received Michael's permission to forward that email to numerous people, as I think you really did him a disservice. If it was his plan to wait until September, try and reconcile, and then CONTINUE to defy the requests of the moderators, he certainly won't get the opportunity now.

For your second to last paragraph, it's flat out bogus, and Joel has already stated our reasons.

For your last paragraph, he may not have a formal business relationship with Giovanni, but anyone who spends 5 minutes at Giovanni's site knows that there is an affiliation there.

There, with that out of the way, let me say, I toyed with the idea of not posting the original email, as it might be perceived as helping to further Anon, but I felt it necessary for people to fully appreciate the motives behind the sender.

Now onto the nitty-gritty. It would appear that a member abused the email function of the forum to mine email addresses of our members for the purpose of sending this email. He then proceeded to register what he thought was an annonymous email account on yahoo to send this unsolicited emailing. Many members forwarded this on to B&B staff (and we thank you all). From tracking identifying information that is found in the header of every email, we were able to attain the IP Address of the offender that sent it. Through searching our IP Address logs, we were able to come up with a match from the offending email, to a member here.

Yesterday we sent Paul of Suffolk Supplies an email letting him know that his account was in temporary suspension, and that if he wanted it unsuspended, he should reply with a truthful response indicating how many people he sent this unsolicited email to, and how he came across members' email addresses (whether it be by manually accessing profile pages, or using some automated script).

He responded with the following:



I don't think you would appreciate a TRUTHFUL response, so you can leave things as they are. If you want to ban someone for offering his own honest opinions,
I don't see a bright future for b&b .


In case anyone doesn't recognize the clear conflicts, in trying to anonymously assault John's character, and the service he offers, and trying to anonymously cause problems for B&B in order to lift leisureguy's ban, AND claiming no link exists between Michael and Giovanni; Paul runs Suffolk Supplies, aka Connaught Shaving. Connaught Shaving has leisureguy's book available for purchase through its website. Connaught Shaving also happens to sell its own blade sampler pack, and they undoubtedly benefitted every time Michael posted links to their sampler pack, and thus, have a financial interest in seeing Michael resume his posting of links to their site.

Paul at Suffolk Supplies was allowed to freely advertise here, even though when he initially registered, he repeatedly disregarded our requests to not flood the Shopping forum, and often responded with exasperation to our simple requests. He is no longer afforded the luxury of advertising here (or posting at all), he clearly broke the rules of this site by mining email addresses from the site, and he broke the rules of civility by cowardly trying to cause problems with what he thought was an anonymous email. I personally recommend anyone considering from him reread the anonymous email he sent, consider the circumstances under which he sent it, and decide if that's someone you'd like to conduct business with. I also recommend that any of you that did not appreciate receiving that email, feel free to let him know of your displeasure.

Along with his ban, we have changed the mechanism for emailing members (who choose to allow that option, everyone can change their preference in the User CP). Now, clicking on the email link in a member's profile will open a form on B&B, and keep the recipient's email address hidden. Just to allay any concerns, emails were never publically available, they were only available to other members, IF you allowed that option when you registered.

I know this whole situation has gotten really old, really fast, so I'll just leave you with this suggestion for those who are still on the fence: Consider who benefits, and how. Neither Joel or I make money by banning leisureguy. Neither Jeol or I make money by banning suffolksupplies. If B&B weren't perpetually in the red, and were a profitable endeavor, not just a labor of love, there would be no money in having this fiasco arise. You're free to draw your own conclusions regarding who stands to profit from their actions and how.

Thanks for your time, and we apologize to those of you that were inconvenienced by this.

-The Mods

liege
09-03-2007, 02:36 PM
Wow. I go away to the mountains for four days and look what happens.

JBHoren
09-03-2007, 02:41 PM
+1

I received one of those "unsolicited" email messages, and I resent my privacy having been invaded and my boundaries having been crossed.

Smooth shaving!

MarSellus Wallace
09-03-2007, 02:57 PM
Santa Madonna, what a story! How small can be people be? It's now 11.55 pm, I'm going to have a nice shave before I tuck in and tomorrow is another day. As I said to Joel in another post. Thank you for your candour. Keep up the good work. MarSellus out.

htownmmm
09-03-2007, 05:03 PM
Another one bites the dust! (anytime I miss some days of checking the site, something always seems to happen.) It appears that I did not get the unsolicited email, but dirty pool is dirty pool.



Marty

paydepst
09-03-2007, 05:24 PM
I got the unsolicited email and can't say I appreciate it. I for one do see a bright future for B&B and stand pat with the moderators on this one as I'm sure their decision wasn't made in haste and from the look of it was entirely justified.

Flaxorca
09-04-2007, 01:16 AM
Wow... What ever is said between members of a community is between them and it will not easily influence my opinion of people, especially not if it is based on hearsay. However unsolicited emails send in this manner is IMO crossing a serious boundary. To me this is nothing less than somebody deliberately making an effort to monger and that is clearly unacceptable. An issues such as this is prone to cause polarization within a community, even without mongering, especially since most of what transpires remains hidden the community.

With what I have seen from the Moderators so far, none of them question the value of Leisureguy's advice especially to the noobs. He has been nothing but friendly to me and very helpful, for which he has earned my respect. I am sure this is valid for many of us. And which is something I have let him know. Simultaneously I have gotten the same friendly, respectful and most of all helpful treatment from all of the members of B&B I have come in contact with so far. Through a small number of people such as Joel and Nick I have been given the opportunity to discover wet shaving and all it has to offer. For that they have earned my respect.

I have some experience with online communities and have a fair idea of how they work. Just as in real life there will always be controversies and these will almost always cause schisms. It is up to the individual members of such communities to choose to respond to situations such as the current one with some restraint and respect, e.g. in a gentlemanly manner. It is not an easy task to moderate any community, but IMO B&B is doing very well compared to some other places I have frequented. Moderators have to make choices and that means making some people unhappy. And sure the moderators sometimes write things that could have benefited from a night of sleep, but after all they are only human, just as the rest of us members are. I have only been on B&B for a few months, but from previous experience with online communities I can say that IMO they are doing a good job. Until now they have been very open to discuss their actions and treat questions on their choices with respect. For this also they have earned my respect.

I for one choose not to take sides in this conflict. I respect both the B&B moderators and Leisureguy and hope that both will continue to contribute to the world of wet shaving, each in their own way. As a community we can choose to deal with this conflict in a respectful manner. The best way to respect what Leisureguy has done for so many of us, is to share what we have learned from him with others. The best way to respect what the founders and moderators of B&B have done is to appreciate the opportunity that they give us and share what we have learned from them with others. I sincerely hope we can soon bury this conflict in a respectful manner and return to dealing with the problems and joys of wet shaving.

Sorry for the long post, I'll get of the old soap box now...

PZBarber
09-04-2007, 02:04 AM
How I see it!

Paul sends emails flaming B&B.
B&B responds by public flaming Pauls business.

I have modded some hugely controversial boards in the past with very large member groups.

Please let me offer a little advice. You can take it or leave it. At the end of the day it is not my forum.

Quit throwing stones at each other publicly. Do not use your forum as a revenge mechanism. Delete everything to do with this situation as soon as possible as it is doing no you favours. How many page hits do you get from non members that have found B&B via a search engine. I would wager a few 100 per day. I really don't think they would consider joining a board where the new post list is full of BS that does not belong on a forum dedicated to shaving and the more gentlemenly side of life. What the worlds surfers are seeing is a public slanging match that does not befit the flavour of the board.

Delete the damn lot and kill any new threads that start up. OK you might have a couple of weeks of hard modding but people will forget who these folks are/were in no time, new members will join never knowing or ever finding out about the schoolyard bitchings.

Sorry if i sound a bit harsh. I am on nobodys side. I just don't want to see all the hours of hard graft (and it really is bastard hard graft running a board this size) get pissed down the pan over a few bucks worth of shaving gear. This is one of the friendliest and most helpful medium size forums on the web. Don't kill it.

Cheers

Mat:biggrin:

Tinzien
09-04-2007, 03:15 AM
Nick,

Thank you for the update on the unsolicited e-mails, your time is appreciated.

I will now return to my previous position of not following the sample pack/banning/whatever already in progress.

CapeCodJay
09-04-2007, 03:31 AM
Nick,

Thank you for the update on the unsolicited e-mails, your time is appreciated.

I will now return to my previous position of not following the sample pack/banning/whatever already in progress.



Couldn't have said it better!

RichGem
09-04-2007, 03:40 AM
Nick,

Thanks for the update and all the time involved with this issued specifically and with resecuring our emails. Is this something that the mods can persue with Paul's IP for having hacked/stolen/misused B&B memebers' email addresses and the B&B system? If so, I'd be in favor of doing so.

Thanks!
Richard

PZBarber
09-04-2007, 06:04 AM
Nick,

Thanks for the update and all the time involved with this issued specifically and with resecuring our emails. Is this something that the mods can persue with Paul's IP for having hacked/stolen/misused B&B memebers' email addresses and the B&B system? If so, I'd be in favor of doing so.

Thanks!
Richard

Yes, harvesting email addresses with the intention of bulk spamming is illegal. I wouldn't think anyone would do anything about a couple of hundred emails sent by a hacked off forum member. On the other hand extracts of private emails have been posted by the board which also contravenes any number of privacy policys. This is why I am saying kill this off as quick as possible. Delete everything and prevent any further public discussion. Both parties are now in severe danger of breaking international laws relating to privacy and data protection and also by publishing content set to deliberately defame someones character. Now THAT is libel. If this continues to be aired in public B&B 'could' be asked to cease operating firstly by their hosting company and secondly by US Law.

And that would be a great big fat waste of time. :biggrin: :biggrin:

Oooh Look I'm a Razor Rajah

Cheers

Mat

joel
09-04-2007, 06:14 AM
Yes, harvesting email addresses with the intention of bulk spamming is illegal. I wouldn't think anyone would do anything about a couple of hundred emails sent by a hacked off forum member. On the other hand extracts of private emails have been posted by the board which also contravenes any number of privacy policys. This is why I am saying kill this off as quick as possible. Delete everything and prevent any further public discussion. Both parties are now in severe danger of breaking international laws relating to privacy and data protection and also by publishing content set to deliberately defame someones character. Now THAT is libel. If this continues to be aired in public B&B 'could' be asked to cease operating firstly by their hosting company and secondly by US Law.

And that would be a great big fat waste of time. :biggrin: :biggrin:

Oooh Look I'm a Razor Rajah

Cheers

Mat

Mat,
Unfortunatly this is not true. Libel and defamation can only exist when the content is UNTRUE and/or a lie. We have evidence, IP strings, and so one and so forth where it clearly pinpoints him - and only him as the culprit. Individuals whose trust has/had been violated on OUR site without question have a right to know by whom.

Also - for what it is worth, he screwed up big time, as one of the gentlemen he emailed works for the Dept. Of Homeland security, and he was actually emailed at his work address - and was rather perturbed and plans on taking action accordingly.

Limey
09-04-2007, 06:33 AM
Also - for what it is worth, he screwed up big time, as one of the gentlemen he emailed works for the Dept. Of Homeland security, and he was actually emailed at his work address - and was rather perturbed and plans on taking action accordingly.

Well...that couldn't have worked out any better if it were planned. It reminds me of when our local news does a piece on "stupid criminals".

PZBarber
09-04-2007, 06:42 AM
Individuals whose trust has/had been violated on OUR site without question have a right to know by whom.

Correcto! I agree entirely but perhaps by PM. Rather than naming the guy on the site, quoting specifics from emails, and posting his business names and aliases kind of lowers the board to his level.

I shall not post anymore on this topic except to say none of this should be public, it is harmful to the forum as a whole which is in turn harmful to our esteemed vendors that do provide a sterling service and do produce magnificent products. I appreciate this forum was never set up to be a showcase for salespeople but it would certainly not be the honourable place it has become without these people.

Good Day Old Chaps :tongue:

Cheers

Mat

RichGem
09-04-2007, 07:20 AM
Well...that couldn't have worked out any better if it were planned. It reminds me of when our local news does a piece on "stupid criminals".

+1

Slant-Fan
09-04-2007, 08:13 AM
How I see it!

(snip)
Delete the damn lot and kill any new threads that start up.
(snip)

Cheers

Mat:biggrin:

First of all I am glad that Nick posted this as I had received the noted email through the grapevine and the reference to LetterK bothered me and it has now been cleared up to my satisfaction. The whole thing is unfortunate. I don't know who is right or who is wrong but I am going to stick around here one way or the other.Whats done is done and all who care know about it by now so why not delete it and move on.

Crag
11-18-2007, 07:57 PM
When I first arrived here at B&B I allowed certain members to guide me in my decision making process because I didn't know where to look for wet shaving stuff. I would say that while 99% of the members on B&B are honest, there is always that 1% who wants to be ungentlemanly either for status for profit.

Everyone on here, if they have done their due diligence, knows that there are some places that have incredible deals on everything from blades to new DE shave kits. It is not in my opinion that we, the members, should call anyone out and make them feel uncomfortable. There is a shopping forum here to advertise deals when we find them, and that is the place we should constrain ourselves to posting regarding them, unbiased.

I think it was wrong for Liesureguy to call out LetterK like that, and would like to say that I know that LetterK provides a wonderful service to us. I'm sure some of it goes for profit, as it should. It is harder than heck to make an investment, keep stock, keep track of all who order, help fund a discussion board, and make a small profit on the venture.

For all that B&B has done for us it's a wonder that they don't charge dues to the members. Obviously, the server and hosting time aren't free... Sooo the next time we take it for granted and start whining we should remember the hard work, long hours, and VOLUNTEERS who make this forum possible, and stop the whining and murmuring.

Shame on those who take this board for granted.

Thank you, B&B for all that you do that goes unnoticed by the masses. For all the group buys, the B&B Brushes, the contests, the information, the guides, the Vendor reviews, the encouragement, and the love that all the Moderators have for Wet Shaving.

Once again, thank you all for making this board possible!

Dr. Mike
11-18-2007, 10:29 PM
I don't necessarily want to keep the old thread going, but I thought I would also follow up on this with my $.02.
I love B&B. Honestly, it has made a drudgery that I would put off doing as much as possible into a luxury that I look forward to each day. I have acquired some great things thanks to this forum. I have discovered great deals from members being helpful and pointing me in the right direction. I know there are other forums out there for this little obsession of ours, and I have lurked around them as well, but this beats 'em all. With so many members, you can post a question and have five or six answers to help you out before you even have time to refresh the screen.
Maybe it is not always run the way I think it should be run. But hey, I didn't set it up, and it isn't my sweat and tears that keeps it running day after day. It works, and I keep coming back. I have made several deals on the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum, and have had nothing but excellent experiences each time. Maybe the mods are a little short with some members at times, but overall, it makes me feel that much more comfortable about the people who are still on here that I might be making a transaction with.
Keep it up! B&B is the first website I log into in the morning and the last one I log out of before going to bed!

Doc4
11-18-2007, 10:47 PM
Mike and Matt, thanks for the words of support.

One of the first things that I discovered when I recently became a Moderator here, is just how much moderating is done 'behind the scenes' (and how much work there is to do!) I'm really impressed at how much effort my fellow moderators put into this site ... and if some Mods occasionally appear to be 'a little short' with the odd member on a rare occasion, you'd be safe in assuming that 'there's more to it' than meets the eye.

Thanks for being gentlemen!