Ignore List

[Day]

A minor complaint: I tried to place Kyle and goosemeplease on my Ignore list, and was advised that I could not do so as they were moderators of the forum.

I think both these members were intemperate in their responses to Leisureguy's comments in the Treet review thread. Perhaps they have a lot to offer in terms of experience and advice, but so does Leisureguy -- and Leisureguy generally writes as if he believes that others may experience shaving differently than he does. These moderators, however, have seemed to me to expect others to take their opinions as the only true view of the world.

If the forum won't permit me to ignore these guys, maybe a word in their shell-like ears suggesting that they lighten up might be appropriate.

[Xavier]

Refer to this thread (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25545) and add your comments. Lets try to keep it to one thread.
B&B is a community and there is bound to be disagreements.

[Day]

With respect, Xavier, I don't care to participate in that thread.

[Aztecface]

With respect, Xavier, I don't care to participate in that thread.

Understandable.

[joel]

A minor complaint: I tried to place Kyle and goosemeplease on my Ignore list, and was advised that I could not do so as they were moderators of the forum.

I think both these members were intemperate in their responses to Leisureguy's comments in the Treet review thread. Perhaps they have a lot to offer in terms of experience and advice, but so does Leisureguy -- and Leisureguy generally writes as if he believes that others may experience shaving differently than he does. These moderators, however, have seemed to me to expect others to take their opinions as the only true view of the world.

If the forum won't permit me to ignore these guys, maybe a word in their shell-like ears suggesting that they lighten up might be appropriate.

It's always unfortunate when something like this occurs, it can sometimes be very tricky. See, a lot goes on behind the scenes, there are a lot of PM's and so on and so forth, and sometimes some of these heated emotions and frustrations can find their way into posts/threads, as it makes sense to the individual posting it, the individual it is intended to, and those who are privy to the PM (For instance, in most cases - someone is intentionally doing something they were not asked to do in order to sneer at, or piss off a moderator - and trust me, it gets old when the same fellow does it month after month)

In this case, I do feel it is necessary to give the forum more information, more background, and a little insight as to what went on - as I can assure you, both Kyle and Jim (goose) are stand up gentlemen of the highest order - and I assure you if everything were laid out on the table for you, you'd not only understand their actions, but be surprised they were able to be so gentlemanly about it... as hard as that may sound to you.

I plan on making a more detailed post this evening regarding this issue, however the jiist of it is - in order to "qwell emotions" and keep you guys in the loop - is this gentleman (LeisureGuy) has been spoken to by moderators dozens, upon dozens, upon dozens of times for violating Terms of Usage on our website, then immediatly finding ways to "go around" the rules in order to do the same thing... over and over and over again. LeisureGuy is extremly helpful to newbies, and does care about teaching the community, but he also cares (very much) about self promotion, selling his book and being popular... Now - as I am certain you're starting to realize, the comments I am making are beginning to become quite inflammatory, and this is precisely why we try to keep this sort of thing off of the forum, and do not usually like to release details regarding issues like this, as in my 4-5 years on these forums - not ONCE has releasing all the background info/details helped the issue at hand, or qwell and issue - instead, it throws gasoline on the fire - and in the past, banned individuals have created multiple accounts, started posting responses and defending their position, and so on and so forth - thus again, only confusing the matter, and increasing tension and further getting things off topic...

People are here to talk about shaving and to relax, not get into pissing matches, and get in the middle of big heated debates. The larger a site becomes, the harder and harder this is to keep in check. When we were small, we were THE most personable/calm site on the internet... and in fact barely had to ban one individual in the sites first year, but almost like clockwork, once we became the biggest, we also started getting hit with a TON of problems, and really a lot of pain in the ass issues.

What this really boils down to is the following... Myself and Nick have soley paid for this website, up until about 1 month ago or so when we enabled others to contribute, as so many have requested to do so in the past, but getting back on point - the jiist of it is, Nick and I have for years paid a considerable amount of money to have this site the greatest up time, fastest response time, most features/options, and 100% ad free - no intrusive and invasive ads - just pure B&B fun. We offer you, and everyone one else this service, and this site - 100% free of charge, and at NO time do we ever ask for a penny from any member, and this site will ALWAYS be free to everyone, and ALL we ask in return, is that the site, what it's here for, and it's membership be respected, and I do not think that's too much to ask, and frankly - anyone who does not wish to abide by that simple concept in our terms of usage (http://www.badgerandblade.com/index.php?page=terms) isn't welcome here... regardless of how many posts they have, or how special they think they are.

B&B is the largest, most active shaving site on the internet... in our ONE B& B branded offering, we sold more items than ALL other shaving forums/sites have combined - so SRP's razor, SMF's Brushes, The shave den's swag, etc - in ONE week, we sold more than all of the aformentioned sites combined. Why is this important to harp on? One answer - free, and HIGHLY effective marketing. When something is given attention on our site, it sells... and really, really a lot - and some individuals cannot, and will not respect the rules we have in place to prohibit absuing this FREE ABILITY we give vendors and refuse to abide by our requests.

Example - Giovanni would vehemently argue and attack anyone who didn't like his shaving soap on our site, and would create POST after POST recommending it, pushing it, etc - and I would get PM after PM from fellas buying it - telling me it was bad, and asking moderators to calm him down. When we attempted to do so, it went sour quickly, he repeatidly attacked moderators, did not abide by VERY simple/easy requests and continued to do as he desired - then proceeded to basically steal our forums concept and create his own, and created post chastizing us - calling us nazi's etc - and as a result was banned. I can assure you this - NO moderator wants to deal with this, and NO moderator wants to ban ANYONE, as it just leads to well... pain in the ass arguments, debates, upset members, etc. We (moderators) are here for 2 reasons, first and foremost to have fun... secondly to prohibit others from abusing, taking advantage of, and thus ruining the site we have put thousands upon thousands of hours into building.

Case in point - if every vendor on our site... 4-5 Sue's, Colleen, Vintage Blades, and so on and so forth were able to relentlessly hawk their items in every/any forum/thread, and would vehemently attack any/every member who did not lke their products... this would be a pretty miserable place no?

Nearly ALL of this websites problems/issues with memebers stem from one of two areas - 1.) Some sort of vendor/advertising/marketing abuse and 2.) Some sort of political or off topic conversation.

Now - on numerous occasions we have considered putting the kaibash on the barbershop, and not allowing ANY advertisments, ANY posting of specials/sales/deals or ANY marketing or vendor participation of any kind, but then - what would this place be? Taking these areas from our site would be taking the "value added" benefits of the site in the first place, and would take away from B&B. We decided, as a mod team, no matter what B/S we had to deal with, and no matter how stressfull it may be, we would tirelessly fight for the spirit of the site, and we would be its protector if you will.

Being a moderator is a terribly miserable job and has caused a lot of our most senior members to "burn out" as you'd be mortified at the way in which some of these "well respected gentlemen" treat you when you ask them to abide by the set rules, or ask them to tone something down, and so on and so forth... in some instances, it is sickening, and in the case of LeisureGuy - I actually got physically sick to my stomache that someone could/would be so rude and low.

You fellas seem to really want to be in the heart of these issues/matters, and I feel many of you do not trust what we do, and the decisions we make... but you know what they say about curiosity killing the cat.....

In the mod forum - I have asked permission (eventhough I founded this site - NOTHING is done as an individual "rambo" it is all done by a democratic GROUP action - and we're a pretty big group - so obviously if we've got a majority voting, there's mighty good cause for an action to be taken) to post the details of this latest "fiasco" as the gentleman did not do as he had promised to do, and had lied to me and not done as we had agreed - which would have enabled his account to be left fully active and his abilities to be a member here, untarnished.

The short of it is, I did ban LeisureGuy after he (yet again) lied to me and did not do as we had specifically agreed upon, however he was banned literally, one hour ago - so this was not something that was done in haste, without the mod groups approval, and without MONTHS, and MONTHS of negotiation, and attempting to work with Michael over and over and over again.

Again - pending there are no mod objections - I will make a more detailed post this evening regarding this issue, but honestly - I feel it is going to do more harm than good, create more tension, etc.

This is a place to enjoy, and to have fun at.... not deal with "high-school" popularity contests, drama, and nonesense. I say we leave it be, and save the man some pride... but for those who *must* know, the guy simply could not follow VERY specific and VERY reasonable requests, and went out of his way - time and time again, to figure out a way to go "around" what we had asked of him, and get the same desired result.

We got tired of spit in our face and feeling like dummies when he figured out cheeky loopholes, and of course most of this stuff is "behind the scenes" and each instance does not seem like a big deal, but combined, month after month after month... well... you can only poke a bull in the eye so many times before you get the horns.

I hope this helps for some... and again - I beg of you all to just accept, and trust that our TEAM has your best interests, and the best interest of the site at hand - and for us to drop this issue... but if it *must* be done, we can have a muckraking session were we throw knives at a guy who cannot defend himself - so others do, as they personally had not experienced say actions and so on and so forth, and it becomes a big - unfair pissing match.

There is no honor in bringing embarassment and throwing knives at someone who cannot defend himself, and there is no honor in creating a duel.

I guess in writing this - I've changed my mind... if you guys really want to know the details - please, let me know and if I get an overwhelming response requesting info, and there are no mod objections - I will... but again - I think it is pointless, and will do no good.

I am sure Michael means well, he has shown an acute desire to help and educate individuals within our fun hobby, and he has been quite generous to many of our members here.... and I think that's all that the forum and its members need to think of when we think of LeisureGuy.... throwing knives need not be necessary.

[Groundhog]

Thanks for the post Joel. Your thorough explanation was more than sufficient for me. I'll admit that I've been somewhat saddened today since reading what happened with regards to Michael, but I also felt that there had to be more than one side to the story.

I visit here because I got hooked on the idea of traditional shaving last winter, and have enjoyed my time here. I do come here to relax as you suggested, and with a desire to avoid the "pissing matches" & "heated debates" (I get enough of that at work). With the exception of my recent defensive tirade in the thread on the doofus (ex) Senator Craig from Iowa, I usually avoid controversial threads like the plague.

I hope everyone can get past this, and perhaps look to a possible reconciliation down the road.....

Signed "The Eternal Optimist"

[Bucnak]

Joel you did a good job of explaining yourself and the mod's decision. If he violated policy after many attempts to have him cease, than a ban was rightfully done.
Just my .02, but you guys do a good job.

John

[Xavier]

I think B&B Terms of Usage seem pretty simple to follow. Joel, your explanation is far enough for me. Thanks.

Though I just have to comment that it will be an odd place being that Leisureguy and Corey Greenberg (not related to this discussion) brought me to B&B.

[Aztecface]

Giovanni called you nazi's???

[joel]

Giovanni called you nazi's???

That - and a whole lot more.

[Aztecface]

That - and a whole lot more.

I would never have guessed that.

Some things i suppose bring out the worst in man.

Edit: I don't know why you felt you had to include Giovanni in the discussion but i feel for my own sake to let you know that i hope this discussion comes to an end and very soon. I frequent this place quite a lot and I have been helped by quite a lot of gentlemen here especially in regard to a rather long personal matter. But including people that have no way of defending themselves defeats the purpose stated earlier. We are here because we enjoy shaving. Let's leave it at that.

[Straight Arrow]

I visit B&B for fun, relaxation, information, and a chance to buy/sell/trade a few goodies to fool with in front of the mirror. Good grief fellas, we're talking about shaving on this forum. SHAVING!!!!!!!!!!!! Get a hold of yourselves. :biggrin:

[Aztecface]

I visit B&B for fun, relaxation, information, and a chance to buy/sell/trade a few goodies to fool with in front of the mirror. Good grief fellas, we're talking about shaving on this forum. SHAVING!!!!!!!!!!!! Get a hold of yourselves. :biggrin:

I think that says it all. Thank You Straight Arrow.

[Little Joe from Mexico]

Joel - Thank you very much for your explanation in the matter. I understand why you shared some information that doesn't concern most of us at all, but was part of your responsibility.

Have no regrets. You know what you're doing. This is a great forum. It still is the only forum I have ever joined and I certainly don't regret it.

Thanks again!

[RJSquirell]

Joel - Thank you very much for your explanation in the matter. I understand why you shared some information that doesn't concern most of us at all, but was part of your responsibility.

Have no regrets. You know what you're doing. This is a great forum. It still is the only forum I have ever joined and I certainly don't regret it.

Thanks again!

Ditto

[Shave Ice]

Mahalo Joel (thats "thank you" in Hawaiian) for keeping this site as spin free as possible. I appreicate the time and money you have invested to create this wonderful community. I have learned so much from everyone here. I also rely on the opinions of the many users of this site to help guide my buying decisions. Thanks again for your commitment of time and money to keep this community going.

Shave Ice

[copperhead]

Joel i would like to thank you for the long and detailed explanation provided above. As my fellow members have stated before this post, i am more than happy with the amount of clarity given to this issue.

[JeffNYC]

Not to continue to take this off topic (the original comment wasn't about Leisureguy but about setting up "ignore" for others making disrespectful comments), but this appears more appropriate here in Site Feedback than the other post in blades...

Personally, I liked Leisureguy's contributions and am curious to know why he was banned. Perhaps I'm in the minority here given most seem OK with a "trust us", but part of this just seems, wrong.

I certainly don't want any more name calling or mud slinging or whatever, just simple objective facts of which of the forum guidelines he broke and maybe even a couple examples or links to his posts to understand. The guidelines definitely seem fair:

1. Behave like ladies or gentlemen.
2. Comply with the requests of the moderators (we will gladly discuss with you any requests we may make).
3. Maintain a positive atmosphere.
4. Remember that in the end, it's not solving world hunger, or political science, it's just shaving.

(I presume #2 is to enforce the others, but if you asked him to stop doing something else that isn't in the rules, that's fine to know, too.)

If you don't want to say, that's OK, too. Or you can PM if I'm the only one that seems to care.

Jeff

[FloppyShoes]

There's enough people giving opinions here, so I'll spare you all mine. Instead, here's a bunny with a pancake on its head:
http://www.swordplay.net/stuff/bunny_pancake.jpg

[biomesh]

There's enough people giving opinions here, so I'll spare you all mine. Instead, here's a bunny with a pancake on its head:
http://www.swordplay.net/stuff/bunny_pancake.jpg

LOL +1 :biggrin:

[Straight Arrow]

There's enough people giving opinions here, so I'll spare you all mine. Instead, here's a bunny with a pancake on its head:

I beg to differ. It's obviously two pancakes. For me it is anyway. YMMV.

[Groundhog]

Big deal.....my bunny can hold 4 pancakes on his head, flip 'em up in the air, and take a bite out of all 4 on the way down.:biggrin:

[Prince]

Thanks for the laugh. That was needed by the time I got to the end of this thread.

Above all, we are here to enjoy each other's company, while at the same time, share a common passion.


Thanks to all the individuals who make this site what it is.

[joel]

Not to continue to take this off topic (the original comment wasn't about Leisureguy but about setting up "ignore" for others making disrespectful comments), but this appears more appropriate here in Site Feedback than the other post in blades...

Personally, I liked Leisureguy's contributions and am curious to know why he was banned. Perhaps I'm in the minority here given most seem OK with a "trust us", but part of this just seems, wrong.

I certainly don't want any more name calling or mud slinging or whatever, just simple objective facts of which of the forum guidelines he broke and maybe even a couple examples or links to his posts to understand. The guidelines definitely seem fair:

1. Behave like ladies or gentlemen.
2. Comply with the requests of the moderators (we will gladly discuss with you any requests we may make).
3. Maintain a positive atmosphere.
4. Remember that in the end, it's not solving world hunger, or political science, it's just shaving.

(I presume #2 is to enforce the others, but if you asked him to stop doing something else that isn't in the rules, that's fine to know, too.)

If you don't want to say, that's OK, too. Or you can PM if I'm the only one that seems to care.

Jeff

Jeff,
Rules are lame... and as a result, we don't have many - but we do try to do what's right. When someone pushes something - whether it is a product, service, etc that they have a personal interest in, we consider them a "vendor" even if they do not have a store front, and as a result - their opinions/posts can change their intent. For instance - if someone has a link to something they sell in their signature - and proceeds to post to EACH and EVERY newbie's post - it can change a "good intention" to a potential marketing scheme.... literally - one is basically able to create hundreds upon hundreds of advertisements when they create a link within their signature. Now - that was one of the battles for instance, as he had quite a few links to his blog, book, so on and so forth - and it took weeks upon weeks or back and forth arguing just to get him to tone it down. Situation after situation like this gets old... fast.

One thing to also point out in the terms of usage is the following you forgot to mention
""Badger and Blade", the badger head logo, "B&B", and all combinations thereof when referring to men's grooming, are trademarked and the sole property of Badger & Blade. All content submitted becomes property of Badger & Blade however is free to use for non-commercial purposes. "

There are excerpts from B&B in Micheal's book - of which he sells for profit, which is a blatant violation of the TOU's - which I think are quite fair. Listen - we don't care in the slightest if people want to use info on this site to educate and help - but the second they are making money off of material/content from OUR site - that crosses the line, and in my opinion is poor form.

I support the gentleman for writing his book... but with our content and direct posts copied verbatim - to me, that's not cool. Thousands upon thousands of our members hours have gone into creating the 300,000+ articles here, and the biggest/most comprehensive database - and we certainly didn't create this database, and our posts for someone elses profit - and as a result - we, as a website, value and protect our members work.

This list of "offenses" goes on and on... and Micheal was given more chances and more open hands than ANY other member prior (spammers who come on our site selling wacky stuff are banned their first post) as his help to our members, and his time here is/was appreciated.

Listen - not one moderator... hell, not one member feels good about what went down - futher it's not how we wanted it to occur, and makes NONE of us happy... but what it really boils down to - is we as a mod team would rather spend our time HELPING the members here, by creating new programs, contests, content and so on and so forth - than dealing with problems/issues - and after months, upon months, and at least half dozen VERY firm, direct warnings (with outline consequences) it's quite clear he wasn't banned from B&B - he chose to leave.

One thing to mention.... many users do not try this on SRP, SMF, etc - as they are much firmer/quicker to pull offenders in line - whch is something I hope we do not have to resort to.

No matter what we do, we'll never please everyone - but we try our best, to do whats right for the "greater good" of the community.

[Prince]

Thanks Joel.

[judge]

its surprising about the ban but the purpose is to share, learn, and grow. some promotion is ok, but differing opinions is what this site is all about. having said that, I got to say thanks to everyone here...you have helped bring me up to speed on shaving and fix my technique in super short time.

[norman931]

There's enough people giving opinions here, so I'll spare you all mine. Instead, here's a bunny with a pancake on its head:
http://www.swordplay.net/stuff/bunny_pancake.jpg


"Ehhh. . . What's up, Doc?" :biggrin:

Norm

[OldSaw]

Not to continue to take this off topic (the original comment wasn't about Leisureguy but about setting up "ignore" for others making disrespectful comments), but this appears more appropriate here in Site Feedback than the other post in blades...

Then maybe the thread should have been moved over here. But when I asked the question, I was completely clueless to what was happening.

I do appreciate the update. It is unfortunate and I do not feel I need any further explanation.

The only area of concern that I now have is how many bogus accounts have been set up for the sole purpose of pushing a product. I put a lot of weight on Kyle's reviews. I know we kid around a lot about things like Proraso, "love it or hate it", kind of fun stuff, but are these blades that have become the tipping point really that polarizing? I find it hard to believe that there could be that much YMMV in a product, unless there was some special interest.

And just in case anyone is interested. I have no connection with the Kohler family or business. I just really like their ASB. If I was a Kohler, I would be too busy managing the engine/generator/plumbing business, figuring out how to spend my millions and sailing my yacht on Lake Michigan, than to plug a single $16 product to my signature on a shaving forum.

[JeffNYC]

Joel, thanks for the details. Glad to hear it wasn't anything he posted that got him banned (which is what confused me).

[MarSellus Wallace]

Thanks Joel for you clarification on the matter. No further explanation is needed. I was a mod myself for a major flemish/dutch photography forum. I know what it is like to be a moderator. It's a job from hell.

It's a good thing to hear the other side of the story and I thank you for your candour. Keep up the good work (I will).

[FloppyShoes]

Thanks Joel for you clarification on the matter. No further explanation is needed. I was a mod myself for a major flemish/dutch photography forum. I know what it is like to be a moderator. It's a job from hell.

It's a good thing to hear the other side of the story and I thank you for your candour. Keep up the good work (I will).

+1, bunnies and pancakes aside, I was an admin/mod for a major online gaming community for 3 years. I burnt out and it left me with a horrible distate for everything related to online gaming. What pushed me over the edge was all the ego and self promotion (similar to the situation you describe here). So, instead of adding more "self" to this, I presented a bunny with breakfast on his head :P I think everyone should take themselves less seriously sometimes.

[Sabledog]

+1, bunnies and pancakes aside, I was an admin/mod for a major online gaming community for 3 years. I burnt out and it left me with a horrible distate for everything related to online gaming. What pushed me over the edge was all the ego and self promotion (similar to the situation you describe here). So, instead of adding more "self" to this, I presented a bunny with breakfast on his head :P I think everyone should take themselves less seriously sometimes.

Thank you (all) for giving us:

Honesty and a peek behind the scenes (politics in shaving! :ohmy: )

Not simply saying "Don't worry about it, nothing happened" or the like.

Warning to NEVER be a MOD!

A great place to talk, buy, sell, chat, learn, and

Pics of bunnies with pancakes! :biggrin:

[OldSaw]

So am I the only one who is suspicious (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showpost.php?p=308751&postcount=25) about certain members motives since this thing developed?

I like B&B and am behind the mods on this one. Especially Joel, he owns it and lets us play here. If I am wrong, I am sorry, but I have not seen an unreasonable exercise of power by the mods, yet the ones who do, cause me to be more suspicious of them rather than the mods.

[bonzo60]

WOW!! What happened? I haven't posted much this week, been very busy with work, out of town with friends, volunteering for my church picnic. I had some time this a.m. to look in and this really serious. I'm sorry to see this type of thing. I hope that it all works out on both ends and thanks for the explanation. I really enjoy participating and will continue to do so. Some of you appear to be very close and i hope that this doesn't detract from the spirit of fun and enjoyment that this site offers, but most of all...the friendship and commaraderie amongst its members.

[judge]

i need a pancake bunny!

[bjrn]

i need a pancake bunny!Watch out, they're stickier than a sticky!

[Little Joe from Mexico]

So am I the only one who is suspicious (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showpost.php?p=308751&postcount=25) about certain members motives since this thing developed?

I like B&B and am behind the mods on this one. Especially Joel, he owns it and lets us play here. If I am wrong, I am sorry, but I have not seen an unreasonable exercise of power by the mods, yet the ones who do, cause me to be more suspicious of them rather than the mods.

+1

I too have noticed: Once in a while members seem to forget that we have joined this forum to participate in it. It is not "our" forum.

[Stauff]

+2 Thanks for this awesome playground.:smile: :cool:

[Suzuki]

+1

I too have noticed: Once in a while members seem to forget that we have joined this forum to participate in it. It is not "our" forum.

While Joel and Nick may own B&B in the legal sense, I truly believe that its "our" (meaning the collective membership) forum in the sense that all members contribute time and knowledge (not to mention financially).

While legal ownership gives Joel and Nick certain rights, if they decided to use them arbitrarily, it would soon be a forum with two members!

My experience is that no one has been banned who didn't deserve it - at the same time, Joel, Nick and the other mods are clearly willing to tolerate a variety of views (including views that they don't agree with) so long as people are respectful and follow the rules.

If B&B was allowed to become a free-for-all, I certainly wouldn't spend as much time or derrive as much enjoyment from being a member - the same would apply if it was run like a dictatorship.

So to that extent, I appreciate the explanation and I think that the fact that Joel took the time to explain the situation (as have other mods in similar types of situtations) confirms (at least to me) that Joel and Nick haven't let the fact that they legally own B&B result in their treating it as "their" forum.

Thanks to all the mods for all their hard work - including making the difficult/ugly decisions that make B&B a more enjoyable place.

[Scotto]

Nonsense like this is why there is an "Emeritus" tag under my avatar. It is amazing how much policing you have to do with such an ostensibly "adult" forum. Hats off to the mods for doing such a fine job, and making the tough decisions when it counts.

[SirAdrian]

I am also a forum administrator and work with other admins all day. I can definitely sympathize with the staff who are trying to do their jobs of making the forum a friendly place for discussion. Though I haven't been here long, I would say they are doing a fantastic job.

Keep up the good work, and stick to what you guys believe is right -- even if members disagree.

[castlecraver]

I'll leave my specific thoughts on the situation out of this aside from my very high personal regard for Michael and my wishes that I understood the specific grievances a little better, as I don't want my personal friendship with Michael to cloud my opinion of what I want to hope was a very objective decision by the admin crew here.

But I would like a clarification on this:



All content submitted becomes property of Badger & Blade however is free to use for non-commercial purposes.

There are excerpts from B&B in Micheal's book - of which he sells for profit, which is a blatant violation of the TOU's - which I think are quite fair.

I understand that point on it's face, but round about back when his book was published, I asked him about that specific point and he indicated to me that he had permission from the members whose posts he was quoting. Assuming this is indeed the case, are you asserting that the original poster no longer holds any rights over his work once it is posted here -- that he/she is relinquishing all ownership and rights over to B&B? Regardless of what the "legal" language entails, I had simply assumed that making those things "property of B&B" would be akin to giving the owners and all the members full rights over my posts for derivative works, reposting, etc etc for non-commercial purposes. This is TOTALLY fine with me. However, if this means as soon as I hit "submit post" that I retain no rights over my own work to give it to someone for commercial purposes at my discretion, I do have a big problem with that. That's not fair, and frankly, against the spirit of a friendly, member-supported community.

[joel]

I'll leave my specific thoughts on the situation out of this aside from my very high personal regard for Michael and my wishes that I understood the specific grievances a little better, as I don't want my personal friendship with Michael to cloud my opinion of what I want to hope was a very objective decision by the admin crew here.

But I would like a clarification on this:



I understand that point on it's face, but round about back when his book was published, I asked him about that specific point and he indicated to me that he had permission from the members whose posts he was quoting. Assuming this is indeed the case, are you asserting that the original poster no longer holds any rights over his work once it is posted here -- that he/she is relinquishing all ownership and rights over to B&B? Regardless of what the "legal" language entails, I had simply assumed that making those things "property of B&B" would be akin to giving the owners and all the members full rights over my posts for derivative works, reposting, etc etc for non-commercial purposes. This is TOTALLY fine with me. However, if this means as soon as I hit "submit post" that I retain no rights over my own work to give it to someone for commercial purposes at my discretion, I do have a big problem with that. That's not fair, and frankly, against the spirit of a friendly, member-supported community.

It means precisely what it extolls.... once posts are submitted, they belong to B&B. Here's why this is the case... if someone posts say - 500 times, all good content, then they decide to become a troll and they are banned - they cannot say "Hey - delete all of "my" posts" thus leaving many, many holes in 500 threads. If this was done by everyone who had left, or had been banned, a lot of threads wouldn't make sense, and so on and so forth. Everyone agrees to these terms when they register for an account, and every time they are on the site by the terms of usage.

Anyone can take their knowledge, thoughts or opinions and make it commercial - however you CANNOT say "This post from B&B" and/or take a post from B&B for commercial purposes... period. If the individual user has sole discretion it can/will become a huge headache on numerous levels, as who then will police which individuals have permission to use content for a commerical purpose from the originator of the post, and who does NOT have permission from the individual poster, and so on and so forth? EVER single moderator on this site has a full time job... this is merely a hobby for us, so we don't have the time, nor the capacity to "police" this.

Above all - and most importantly, when someone takes a post from B&B, and states "This post from B&B" and inputs the post in question - it is now adding B&B, and at this point B&B's credibility, reputation and good standing is now a "selling point" within an indviduals book, store, catalogue or whatever, as B&B IS the biggest shaving forum - and if it appears something is condoned, or given a big thumbs up from us, that carries A LOT of weight.

Bottom line - we're not here for commerical purposes, and we're not here to support commercial purposes, this is a hobby for us, and those of which who are here for commerical purposes are welcome (with very few restrictions upon them) and able to take advantage of this incredibly powerful and FREE marketing medium - however again, we're not here to make things easier for individuals to profit from our site. If you - or any other member is/are creating posts under the auspices of one day turning their content into value/money for yourself, or someone else - quite frankly I don't think the group would readily welcome you... or anyone else looking to post here, and create content for their own benefit.

This is a place for fun... if you're looking to create/make money off of helping other gentlemen, and sharing information, i'm sorry but you've missed the auspices of why B&B exists - and if you feel protecting our site, our members, and the best interests of the community is not "fair" and against the "spirit of the community" there are many other shaving site of which you may wish to frequent.

Pat - I like you, and we (the community) like you, but for god's sake - I can't imagine why you, or ANYONE else would have a problem with this issue. REMEMBER - ANYONE can use content on this site, and it is freely shared PROVIDED IT IS NOT FOR COMMERICAL INTERESTS. Guaranteing the information on our site is both compiled and available to ALL, and for FREE, should be applauded and admired.

We want this place, and this hobby to grow... and it isn't going to grow as much, or as fast if everyone is trying to make money off of any/everything they can.

This policy is in place for protection, and to promote the FREE sharing of information - not to undermind members or "control."

Frankly... anyone posting here thinking they can/will create/use their postings for commercial purposes, or the data here for commerical purposes is highly suspect as to their intentions here, as well as the validity and the honesty of the content within their posts.

Bottom line - this is a community for fun, and to promote wetshaving... for free.

[htownmmm]

Part of being a gentleman is knowing and following the rules of life-no matter where we may be. The rules for this site have been posted & they can be read and reread at any time when in doubt.

When we do not follow the rules, we know there will be consequences. The consequences of our actions may not catch up to us soon, but they will catch up to us eventually.

I try to stay away from inflammatory subjects but have found that a reasonable viewpoint may add something to the discussion.It's only when I feel that I must defend my idea(like it's the only right one) to the death that I get out of hand-hence, my personal reason for staying out of inflammatory subjects.

Now off my soapbox and off to shave!


Marty

[castlecraver]

Joel,

Thanks for the explanation, and I hope you didn't misunderstand why I asked it -- I have absolutely NO commercial ambitions as far as shaving (or the other pursuits we discuss here) is concerned I don't have a problem with anything I've posted here being used freely by whoever. If I did, I wouldn't have put it on the internet. Anyone who honestly thinks they still retain control over their works once they've been unleashed to the whole WWW is kind of delusional, if you ask me.

That being said, if Michael had asked me to use something I posted here for a quote in his book (just a hypothetical), I would want to grant that permission and not have to worry about it. There are many other members I would act similarly towards. I honestly didn't think this was prohibited or even a gray area before I read this thread.

[norman931]

if someone posts say - 500 times, all good content, then they decide to become a troll

Joel has been watching my post count! (This is my 501st post.)
Now crossing over to the DARK SIDE! :biggrin:

Norm

[ravkesef]

I've been on the Forum for a bit over a year, and I've benefited tremendously from the good advice I've received, and in turn, hope I've benefited others by the advice I've passed along. I have felt the friendship of other B&Bers, and hope that I've managed to pass a bit of that along as well. I've managed to acquire Charles' last batch of Wild Rose shaving soap, bought products from Mama Bear and others, am a proud owner of the B&B brush, and so forth. We've discussed shaving, religion, freemasonry, and a host of other topics, and for the most part, managed to do so in an appropriate adult fashion. We managed all this by sticking to the rules.
LeisureGuy (Michael,) has been someone I've looked to for advice from time to time, and I suspect the same is true for many others on this forum. But the rules are the rules, and if Michael couldn't live by them (as indeed we all must,) then sadly he had to go.
Kyle, Jim, Joel, I've never met you, but I've come to know you as the gentlemen of the finest sort, whose love and caring for this forum have made it what it is. I'm certain you didn't take this action lightly--I'm sorry that it had to be done, but I trust you enough to know that you acted with the best interests of the entire forum membership in mind.
For everyone else on this forum, may I respectfully and in all humility suggest that we accept the decision of our moderators calmly, knowing that they didn't act out of haste or malice, but with everyone's interests at heart. This forum is what it is because of what they've made it into, and I would hope that we all want to see its high standards maintained. Let's not lose ourselves in acrimonious debate--these guys are not nazis or anything else of an uncomplimentary nature. They try and manage the forum so that all of us can benefit, and I for one am mighty happy that they do so.
Thanks, Joel, Kyle, Jim, and others for all your hard work. Please keep it up.

[ouch]

Joel has been watching my post count! (This is my 501st post.)
Now crossing over to the DARK SIDE! :biggrin:

Norm

That's something I'd love to see, Norm. In fatc, I'm buying. :thumbup1:

[norman931]

That's something I'd love to see, Norm. In fatc, I'm buying. :thumbup1:

I'll have a lemonade! (Not too strong. . . :redface: )

Norm

[Mama Bear]

There's enough people giving opinions here, so I'll spare you all mine. Instead, here's a bunny with a pancake on its head:
http://www.swordplay.net/stuff/bunny_pancake.jpg

I will raise you a donut... (and a glass of lemonaide).... :biggrin:

[Lynchmeister]

Joel,

Thanks for the explanation, and I hope you didn't misunderstand why I asked it -- I have absolutely NO commercial ambitions as far as shaving (or the other pursuits we discuss here) is concerned I don't have a problem with anything I've posted here being used freely by whoever. If I did, I wouldn't have put it on the internet. Anyone who honestly thinks they still retain control over their works once they've been unleashed to the whole WWW is kind of delusional, if you ask me.

That being said, if Michael had asked me to use something I posted here for a quote in his book (just a hypothetical), I would want to grant that permission and not have to worry about it. There are many other members I would act similarly towards. I honestly didn't think this was prohibited or even a gray area before I read this thread.

Joel, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand it as the following:

Example A: Joe Blow posts the the following on WhiskerWhacker.net-->

"I've found that using motor oil as a pre shave is great!"

Jimmy Jam read this and cites it in his book as such-->

"Use motor oil as a pre shave! Joe Blow swears by it."

Example B: The same exept for Jimmy Jam's exerpt in his book reads as follows-->

"Use motor oil as a pre shave! Joe Blow, of WhiskerWhacker.net fame, swears by it."

See the difference? Example A is fine, but B is clearly using the forum's influence as an endorsement to lend more credibility to the statement and, in turn, hopefully sell more books.

[zachster]

Joel, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand it as the following:

Example A: Joe Blow posts the the following on WhiskerWhacker.net-->

"I've found that using motor oil as a pre shave is great!"

Jimmy Jam read this and cites it in his book as such-->

"Use motor oil as a pre shave! Joe Blow swears by it."

Example B: The same exept for Jimmy Jam's exerpt in his book reads as follows-->

"Use motor oil as a pre shave! Joe Blow, of WhiskerWhacker.net fame, swears by it."

See the difference? Example A is fine, but B is clearly using the forum's influence as an endorsement to lend more credibility to the statement and, in turn, hopefully sell more books.

Motor oil, you say? I'll have to try that and report back tomorrow... :biggrin:

Seriously, though, copyright law would dictate that the overall compendium of B&B belongs to the owners of B&B -- the members are essentially contributing authors. On the other hand, it is generally fair game to paraphrase or quote published works, as long as one gives credit and does not plagiarize. Appearance on the web, with content generally available to anybody who can use a search engine, would render B&B a published work, regardless of whether it is published for for profit or not. I have not read Michael's book, but I should think that, as long as he gives credit to B&B, and/or the individual poster, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with publishing a work with such references. Consequently, whatever the "rule" may be at B&B as to this issue, enforcement would probably be fruitless as long as quoting or paraphrasing the board, with credit, does not fall afoul of common copyright law. Caveat: while I am a lawyer, I do not deal with copyright law -- my opinions come almost entirely from a class I took in law school way too many years ago.... :blushing:

[ltlsuz]

I will raise you a donut... (and a glass of lemonaide).... :biggrin:

Is that a JELLY Donut? YUM!:w00t:

[Mama Bear]

Is that a JELLY Donut? YUM!:w00t:

I hope so... :blush: kind of looks like motor oil, doesn't it... :blink:

here is a cookie just in case... :badger:

[norman931]

Just TRY to put a pancake on my head!!!

[TimmyBoston]

I love that picture, the little guy is smiling. :smile:

Eric, thank you for your cool and level-headed response.

[joel]

Motor oil, you say? I'll have to try that and report back tomorrow... :biggrin:

Seriously, though, copyright law would dictate that the overall compendium of B&B belongs to the owners of B&B -- the members are essentially contributing authors. On the other hand, it is generally fair game to paraphrase or quote published works, as long as one gives credit and does not plagiarize. Appearance on the web, with content generally available to anybody who can use a search engine, would render B&B a published work, regardless of whether it is published for for profit or not. I have not read Michael's book, but I should think that, as long as he gives credit to B&B, and/or the individual poster, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with publishing a work with such references. Consequently, whatever the "rule" may be at B&B as to this issue, enforcement would probably be fruitless as long as quoting or paraphrasing the board, with credit, does not fall afoul of common copyright law. Caveat: while I am a lawyer, I do not deal with copyright law -- my opinions come almost entirely from a class I took in law school way too many years ago.... :blushing:

According to the attorney who created the wording (who is an internet copyright attorney) when it is specified as a term of usage, and EVERY page on the forum states "By accessing Badger & Blade, you agree to abide by the Terms of Usage." (and it does) whenever someone accesses data, clicks on our site, or views ANY content - they are entering into a contract, and agreeing to the terms of usage. Even if (and it does) copyright law would not protect this potential copyright breech, the agreement made by the user to the website would - and we could sue for damages under those auspices.

Having BOTH measures in place allow us the ability to insure no abuses are made, as we are protected in both manners and "theoretically" can/could sue 2X - both for copyright violations, and usage violations/damages - so theoretically, if it ever had to get ugly with someone refusing the cease and desist, we'd have a tremendous amount of leverage.

As with all things legal - there are fuzzy/grey areas, but we did a lot of research, and spent a lot of money in hiring and having the proper wording/agreement drafted, so i'm very confident in our ability to protect the groups information from commercial interests.

:smile:

[bjrn]

I will raise you a donut... (and a glass of lemonaide).... :biggrin:I see your donut, and raise you a waffle :lol:
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9867/oolonglastheadperformanfj1.jpg

[Sabledog]

I see your donut, and raise you a waffle :lol:
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9867/oolonglastheadperformanfj1.jpg

Is this some form of animal testing? 'Cause that's bad, Mmmmmmm'k!?

[Tinzien]

I see your waffle and raise you insanity! :biggrin:

[FloppyShoes]

Wow guys, I feel like an old guy. Back in the day (the Counterstrike and RTCW days), the pancake bunny was the only rabbit with pastry on its head out there.
Incidentally, it's not that I don't care about the topic of the thread, it's just that the decision has already been made. Anything I say now would be an opinion based on second or third hand information. If I'm going to waste your time, I'm going to do so in a random, hilarious way. Not by writing a novel justifying my stance on an issue which is over.

Anyone see this before?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/drunkcat.jpg

[joel]

Wow guys, I feel like an old guy. Back in the day (the Counterstrike and RTCW days), the pancake bunny was the only rabbit with pastry on its head out there.
Incidentally, it's not that I don't care about the topic of the thread, it's just that the decision has already been made. Anything I say now would be an opinion based on second or third hand information. If I'm going to waste your time, I'm going to do so in a random, hilarious way. Not by writing a novel justifying my stance on an issue which is over.

Anyone see this before?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/drunkcat.jpg

I know you all are trying to make light of a serious topic, but let's not let this get too out of hand and off topic - as while you (and others) are making fun/joking/good hearted remarks to lighten the mood, you're also simultaneously bumping up the thread, and bringing it back up into everyones view, and pretty much everyone has read it - and regardless of them agreeing or disagreeing with the actions taken, wants to move on. If people have more to say - then have at it... but if it's just off topic stuff - this probably isn't the right hot-button issue to keep bumping - know what I mean?

:smile:

[qhsdoitall]

I would suggest the moderators please clean this thread up of off topic material and close it. In truth, I believe the lengthy explanations from forum management were misplaced. It does no good to tell the forum membership why a member was banned. I know people want to know why such a high profile member was banned but it's none of their business. They do not need to know nor should they. It is a matter between forum administration and the banned member. Forum rules are clearly stated and should be followed. End of story. I think forum management needs to rethink their procedures for responding to such threads in the future. This is only my opinion and as such people can take it with a grain of salt.

[JonEdangerousli]

According to the attorney who created the wording (who is an internet copyright attorney) when it is specified as a term of usage, and EVERY page on the forum states "By accessing Badger & Blade, you agree to abide by the Terms of Usage." (and it does) whenever someone accesses data, clicks on our site, or views ANY content - they are entering into a contract, and agreeing to the terms of usage. Even if (and it does) copyright law would not protect this potential copyright breech, the agreement made by the user to the website would - and we could sue for damages under those auspices.

Having BOTH measures in place allow us the ability to insure no abuses are made, as we are protected in both manners and "theoretically" can/could sue 2X - both for copyright violations, and usage violations/damages - so theoretically, if it ever had to get ugly with someone refusing the cease and desist, we'd have a tremendous amount of leverage.

As with all things legal - there are fuzzy/grey areas, but we did a lot of research, and spent a lot of money in hiring and having the proper wording/agreement drafted, so i'm very confident in our ability to protect the groups information from commercial interests.

:smile:

Seems like in order to invoke contract law there would have to be a valid contract. Since one of the required elements of a contract is consideration I'd think one could make a case that the "contract" is not in fact enforceable due to a lack of consideration.

Damn that Holiday Inn Express!!

[MarSellus Wallace]

I would suggest the moderators please clean this thread up of off topic material and close it. In truth, I believe the lengthy explanations from forum management were misplaced. It does no good to tell the forum membership why a member was banned. I know people want to know why such a high profile member was banned but it's none of their business. They do not need to know nor should they. It is a matter between forum administration and the banned member. Forum rules are clearly stated and should be followed. End of story. I think forum management needs to rethink their procedures for responding to such threads in the future. This is only my opinion and as such people can take it with a grain of salt.

Yes, but you must never leave room for speculation. That is far worse! That said, it would be best to close these threads. They kept being bumped and brought under the attention of unsuspecting members.

[JonEdangerousli]

Yes, but you must never leave room for speculation. That is far worse! That said, it would be best to close these threads. They kept being bumped and brought under the attention of unsuspecting members.

*ignoring MarSellus' bump:rolleyes:

/irony? we don't get that around here...

[qhsdoitall]

Yes, but you must never leave room for speculation. That is far worse! That said, it would be best to close these threads. They kept being bumped and brought under the attention of unsuspecting members.

Then at least keep it simple if management must respond. This was the rule(s) broken that resulted in the banning. Quote the rule right off the Terms of Usage Page.

[JonEdangerousli]

Then at least keep it simple if management must respond. This was the rule(s) broken that resulted in the banning. Quote the rule right off the Terms of Usage Page.

My guess is that the mods felt it much easier to write a few posts clarifying their reasoning rather than spend hours in endless private message threads rehashing the same questions from different members.

In general I think the mods do a great job. It is a very frustrating thing this moderating.

[Suzuki]

Seems like in order to invoke contract law there would have to be a valid contract. Since one of the required elements of a contract is consideration I'd think one could make a case that the "contract" is not in fact enforceable due to a lack of consideration.

Damn that Holiday Inn Express!!

Ask Holiday Inn for your money back - you only got 1/2 of the info on the law of contracts.

Consideration does not have to be financial - it need only have value (quantum is not important and "peppercorn payments" (payments of nominal value) are suffucient to create a binding contract).

So, in this case, the consideration is being allowed to participate in B&B - which is , since you're actively posting, someting I believe you'll agree is of some value.

While we can get into a lengthy debate about standard form contracts/contracts of adhesion, etc... the fact remains that the BETTER (and likely successful) argument is that the contractual analysis that Joel (no doubt validated by his fancy-pants lawyer) expressed.