How to order a cocktail the way you want it?

[millertime150]

I don't order cocktails typically when I go out to eat. I usually just order beer. Tonight I am going out to eat and I am in the mood for a cocktail. In the past I usually just order an Old Fashion or a Manhattan. I let the bartender make it their way and 9/10 I am dissapointed. I usually make about 6 Manhattans/old fashions a week for myself and I like it a specific way.

So is there a way to order a cocktail according to my way listed below and not come off as a picky jerk?

For example I like my manhattans as follows:
2 ounces of Bourbon
1/4 ounce of Sweet Vermouth
1/4 ounce of Dry Vermouth
cherry
Shake in a cocktail shaker and strain into a glass. Garnish with cherry.

When I order manhattans, it always comes on the rocks :(

Also I usually just drink cheap bourbon at home.

Is there usually a huge price difference between a house Manhattan and say a Jim Beam or Makers Mark Manhattan which imo are low to mid priced Bourbons?

EDIT: dash of bitters also

[gaj90027]

Sure you can. A Manhattan with equal parts sweet and dry vermouth is called a Perfect Manhattan. If it's a real bartender he will know the difference and hook it up right. You can also specify shaken - not on the rocks and with a cherry "please". I wouldn't get into 2oz this, 1/4oz that or anything as this could be seen as offensive.

Of course, if you can go to the bar yourself to order it makes a huge difference. If you are talking about a cocktail from a local chain restaurant then you might just be SOL and better off with a beer.

Price of the booze will depend on where you live and where you are dining. On average it's usually $2.00 more for call or premium brands. Luxury brands if available will cost even more.


I don't order cocktails typically when I go out to eat. I usually just order beer. Tonight I am going out to eat and I am in the mood for a cocktail. In the past I usually just order an Old Fashion or a Manhattan. I let the bartender make it their way and 9/10 I am dissapointed. I usually make about 6 Manhattans/old fashions a week for myself and I like it a specific way.

So is there a way to order a cocktail according to my way listed below and not come off as a picky jerk?

For example I like my manhattans as follows:
2 ounces of Bourbon
1/4 ounce of Sweet Vermouth
1/4 ounce of Dry Vermouth
cherry
Shake in a cocktail shaker and strain into a glass. Garnish with cherry.

When I order manhattans, it always comes on the rocks :(

Also I usually just drink cheap bourbon at home.

Is there usually a huge price difference between a house Manhattan and say a Jim Beam or Makers Mark Manhattan which imo are low to mid priced Bourbons?

[Go West Young Man]

You can ask a bartender to make a drink a certain way, but you'll get better results through positive reinforcement - compliment the drink, then suggest a small change on the next one to make it "even better".

But honestly, if you're going to be that high maintenance about it, just don't order that drink when you're out. You wouldn't tell the chef exactly how to prepare every detail of your meal, would you?

[franz]

I'd like a perfect Manhattan, shaken and served straight-up. Doesn't sound high-maintenance to me.

[millertime150]

Ok I ordered two last night. I know a Perfect Manhattan is equal parts sweet and dry vermouth but last time I specified that to a bar tender they didn't know what the perfect part meant. Last night I said "I would like a Manhattan with equal parts sweet and dry vermouth shaken with a cherry. He actually was pretty good because he remembered to ask me if I want bitters which I always use but forgot to tell him. He then also asked me if I want it served straight-up which I did (I though shaken was served straight-up but I guess you can shake and then serve on the rocks).

I have purchased about 10 or so different Bourbons since I started getting into Manhattans and Old Fashions. They ranged from low end to mid priced. From my experience, $ amount didn't have much of an effect on how much I liked the taste or how bad of a hang over I may get.

So I stated that I would like just the house bourbon/ manhattan and I am not picky with the bourbon. Makers Mark was the lowest end they had so I just got that. Unfortunately it was $13 each which I was expecting maybe $8 each but oh well.

[TimmyBoston]

If I need a cocktail properly made, I have Pat make it.

[Samurai-5]

This is the reason I have to go to expensive places to get a quality cocktail. It just seems you have to nowadays. :( I have also changed what I order depending on where I go... for example:

Local bar: Beer
Average Restaurant: Vodka Martini straight up extra cold lemon twist
Nicer restaurant: Rye Manhattan, straight up extra cold
Nice Lounge: Sazzerac neat and cold
Expensive Restaurant: Ketel Martini straight up with 4 blue cheese stuffed olives extra cold with dirt on the side.

I always order with a smile and say please and thank you. I also learn the bartenders name and call them their name all the time. If they do me right I go back. :)

[Rusty Wilkinson]

I think it is easier to order in measures rather than ounces, as some vendors use jiggers and others use units.

[stobes21]

I hardly ever order "complicated" drinks at a bar or restaurant. It's unfortunate but few bartenders these days know what the proper terms mean (I fairly regularly have to explain what "neat" means to restaurant personnel) or how to make a proper cocktail. So I leave the more complicated cocktails for my own hands and either order something very simple (beer, G&T, bourbon neat, etc.).

If the bartender knows what he's doing and we have a moment to chat I'll usually let his creativity dictate the drink. So if I'm impressed with the bartender's skill and knowledge I'll tell him what I'm in the mood for like "I want something refreshing with rye whiskey but not too sweet" or "I've never had that particular type/brand of liquor there before, how do you recommend I try it?" and let him make something for me. Usually it comes out very well and I learn something. Sometimes I'll even order something off the cocktail menu if they have something that looks tasty (though those things are usually the refuge of cloyingly sweet vodka "tinis" of various neon varieties).

[Acmemfg]

Wanna have some fun?? Find the most upscale bar in your neck of the woods. Order a "Vespers"...get ready for the doe in the headlights look. Visited the what is regarded to be the "BEST" martini bar in Atlanta (hardly a backwater environment). Bartender had NO clue....few do actually.

[GarageBoy]

You guys need a cocktail bar in your neck of the woods... (upscale implies expensive and not necessarily good and in NYC means they can charge a lot for a Vodka Cranberry)
Ignore the fact that they're hipster-ey and thus sceney and you'll be rewarded with talented bar staff who know what they're doing (and are usually pretty nice about it, unlike the hipster stereotype)

[VaHomebrewer]

I'd like a perfect Manhattan, shaken and served straight-up. Doesn't sound high-maintenance to me.

This.

Much like my standard drink order when out with my wife - "I'd like a Bombay Sapphire martini; up, dry, with olives please."

[Bertilak]

This.

Much like my standard drink order when out with my wife - "I'd like a Bombay Sapphire martini; up, dry, with olives please."

I've found it pays to be redundant: "up, no ice". I got tired of waiters asking what "up" meant, or completely ignoring it and delivering things on the rocks. Perhaps that just shows the low-class national-chain places I go to.

BTW, I'm talking Manhattans here. I think a Martini will always come "up" without asking.

[mparker762]

I have a set of cards with recipes on them, printed out 10/page on the printer and cut up with some scissors. They're just the right size to fit in my wallet. I'll just hand it to the waitress when I place the order "I'd like an X made like this". The waitress may look at me funny but I've never had one get offended. Often the bartender will come out with it to make sure it's made ok. One of the restaurants we go to fairly often now has my recipes entered in their computer, it comes out on the bill with my name on it "Mike's Sidecar" or whatever.

[The Count of Merkur Cristo]

I usally sit at the bar and observe the bartender make my cocktails / drinks...always making polite positive comments (additions, deletions, extras ect...good cocktail = good tip), and then go to my table. :lol1:

Christopher http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n47/circlecity/drinks.gif "[Having a drink],… is a [great], way of ending the day". Ernest Hemingway

[Go West Young Man]

I have a set of cards with recipes on them, printed out 10/page on the printer and cut up with some scissors. They're just the right size to fit in my wallet. I'll just hand it to the waitress when I place the order "I'd like an X made like this".
.

50% of your drinks get spit in, guaranteed!

[rearviewmirror]

50% of your drinks get spit in, guaranteed!

and I dont want to know what happens to the other 50%

[WhiskeyBeat]

I have a set of cards with recipes on them, printed out 10/page on the printer and cut up with some scissors. They're just the right size to fit in my wallet. I'll just hand it to the waitress when I place the order "I'd like an X made like this". The waitress may look at me funny but I've never had one get offended. Often the bartender will come out with it to make sure it's made ok. One of the restaurants we go to fairly often now has my recipes entered in their computer, it comes out on the bill with my name on it "Mike's Sidecar" or whatever.

...wow...I'm surprised you even get served.

[jwhite]

I used to tend bar in nice independents, first if your not familiar with where to find a place that makes a decent cocktail at a decent price go to the courthouse square, in that square or within one block you will find a bar. In that establishment they will likely have long old bar with many, many bottles in plain view on the back bar, there is most likely a lot of old wood, the floor, the walls, the bar. That is where the lawyers, local pols, and their clerks drink. The bartenders there know what they are doing. There are exceptions but thats a pretty good general rule that hasn't let me down yet.

Second regarding specific drink instructions, if you're polite and tip well servers and bartenders have no problem whatsoever and will be happy to see you come in the door. If your pushy or a light tipper they will take care of those that aren't. The tip should reflect service, if you ask a lot you should give a lot. It makes the extra effort worthwhile for everyone involved. That is if your in a nice place, most there have that job because they are good at it, they are expected to be educated in the product the sell and they make decent money for their service and expertise.

[GarageBoy]

I have a set of cards with recipes on them, printed out 10/page on the printer and cut up with some scissors. They're just the right size to fit in my wallet. I'll just hand it to the waitress when I place the order "I'd like an X made like this". The waitress may look at me funny but I've never had one get offended. Often the bartender will come out with it to make sure it's made ok. One of the restaurants we go to fairly often now has my recipes entered in their computer, it comes out on the bill with my name on it "Mike's Sidecar" or whatever.

When you order food, do you give the line cook your recipe too?

[Hornwort]

Too cynical to even try in 99% of establishments.

[Mr. Goodkat]

Well, if you flare your nostrils correctly, and speak with a mild degree of condescension, you can pass yourself off as a connoisseur. Unfortunately it is also expensive, you must specify exactly what to use, and you must choose the best.

[WhiskeyBeat]

Where I live most bars will generally do what your ask as long as you pay the difference if there is any, saying that in a chain bar I used to go to it was £7 for a vodka Martini, yet when I asked for gin because it wasn't on the menu she charged me for the ingredients it worked out cheaper so go figure.

[letterk]

Recently, I've been surprised at how bar tenders seem to be improving on their knowledge of some of the more classic drinks. It's usually a good sign if they ask what bourbon you'd like and suggest a Rye. I'm batting greater than 50-50 on good Manhattans lately, a few have been great.

[winston61]

I keep it simple. I ask for rye and ginger ale with a twist.

[Rushman2112]

If you're paying for it, then it should be how you want it, so I think it's perfectly acceptble to tell the bartender exactly how you want it.

[The Nid Hog]

I have a set of cards with recipes on them, printed out 10/page on the printer and cut up with some scissors. They're just the right size to fit in my wallet. I'll just hand it to the waitress when I place the order "I'd like an X made like this". The waitress may look at me funny but I've never had one get offended. Often the bartender will come out with it to make sure it's made ok. One of the restaurants we go to fairly often now has my recipes entered in their computer, it comes out on the bill with my name on it "Mike's Sidecar" or whatever.

This looks like one of my posts. You're kidding, right?

Actually there are a lot of possibilities here. What about doing the same for conversation topics for your companions. In fact, you could print them out on postcard-sized cards and mail them to everyone before the event. They could review them and home, then slip them in their pocket in case they need to refresh their memories later. And dating? A checklist sent to your date could save so much time. She could fill it out and return it to you at the beginning of the evening.

Gentlemen--my life has been changed.

[stobes21]

This looks like one of my posts. You're kidding, right?

Actually there are a lot of possibilities here. What about doing the same for conversation topics for your companions. In fact, you could print them out on postcard-sized cards and mail them to everyone before the event. They could review them and home, then slip them in their pocket in case they need to refresh their memories later. And dating? A checklist sent to your date could save so much time. She could fill it out and return it to you at the beginning of the evening.

Gentlemen--my life has been changed.

Conversation topics are way too broad. You never know where conversations are going to go. Detailed scripts would be a much better approach.

[Rossmeister]

Over here, you basically need to explain a lot of "classic" cocktails if you want one right. Unless, of course, you go to a good bar. I want to repeat a little story I've told before:

My friend and I go to a steak house, and he's just recently started to appreciate alcohol and cocktails. So I suggest a Martini to enjoy before the meal. Great idea, right! Hah, no. We order it, and after a while I start thinking "gee, this is taking an awful long time." After all, how long does it take to make one? Not long. Anyway, I decide to use this little free time to go check out the whisky selection in case I want something after the meal. Didn't find anything I wanted, but I spied the counter at the bar. There our two glasses were, with the mixing glass filled with the juice, just standing there waiting! The ice was still in it of course, so our martinis were getting watered out already. I also thought I saw something yellow, which disturbed me.

Anyway, I got back to my friend right quick, and our drinks arrive almost at the same time as our food. This is just wrong when you want a Martini as an appetiser. Not only that, but we've been served Martinis with lemon peel, which we certainly didn't ask for! I expected olives. Our drinks were watered down because of waiting in the mixing glass, and I actually felt bad for my friend when I saw his face after he tasted it. Drinks are rather expensive where I live, so it would be a total waste of money. A Martini will cost you between $13.5 and $18.5, I reckon. Anyways, I felt bad for my friend, and I was annoyed that we didn't get what we were about to pay for, so I sent the drinks back for the both of us.

Don't get me wrong, I love lemon peel, I use it in vodka martinis (don't hassle me about the name, please) all the time, but in proper Martinis, I expect olives. That, and the fact that we got the cocktails with the food, and watered down and that.. I'm sorry, I'm just not gonna pay for that.

[The Count of Merkur Cristo]

I usally sit at the bar and observe the bartender make my cocktails / drinks...always making polite positive comments (additions, deletions, extras ect...good cocktail = good tip), and then go to my table. :lol1:

Also, I love :001_tt1: bartenders with a 'heavy hand'!!! :yesnod:

Christopher http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n47/circlecity/drinks.gif "All Cognac’s are Brandy...but not all Brandy’s are Cognac". Christopher

[mhuelskamp]

Be honest with them right from the beginning and drop them a decent tip ($5 min) for the trouble. Most bartenders (good ones anyways) take pride in their drinks and meeting their customers expectations and don't mind the extra effort as long as you take care of them. The little extra you tip upfront will be well worth it... Better service, and better than drinking messed up drinks all night or sending them back over and over (which really displeases bar/waitstaff). Once you find a good Barkeep that knows how you like drink and knows your tastes, stick with him and become a regular.

[dgilman]

I also must say, having tended bar myself, that I didn't care to be told how to make a drink by a customer. It's only fair to tell a bartender if you want the drink to include this or that, if that ingredient is out of the ordinary. But if you want a perfect Manhattan up, ask for that. If the bartender literally does not know what those words mean, either stop trying to order cocktails at that bar, or stop patronizing such an establishment. Don't reward mediocrity, if you can help it.

If you're so fussy about a particular standard-issue drink that you feel compelled to give orders about how to make it, then you probably should just make it yourself at home and save everyone the aggravation. I've seen massively irritating customers compensate for their persnicketiness by leaving really large tips, but I would honestly rather earn an ordinary, decent tip from someone who respected my professional abilities.

As for myself, when I go out to a bar, I almost always order something that I cannot or won't bother to make for myself at home. I'd feel pretty silly getting bent out of shape about a bar's margarita, since no one makes them better than I do at home. But since I don't have any plans to start infusing my own bitters, or concocting honey-thyme syrups, or investing in a big bottle of an accent liqueur like St. Germain, I'm happy to purchase drinks involving such things at good cocktail bars where they know their craft. And thank the heavens, there is one such bar in town. Most bars here (and probably anywhere) are not run by cocktail enthusiasts or liquor experts, and won't know a lot of stuff that we insufferable snobby boozehounds take for granted.

[Rughi]

I keep it simple. I ask for rye and ginger ale with a twist.

Well that sounds good, but even in Texas you might be given a Canadian Whiskey instead of an honest to god Straight Rye. People who think "rye" is shorthand for anything from Canada can be quite argumentative, instead of just giving you a whiskey that actually has "rye" in its name.

[dgilman]

Well that sounds good, but even in Texas you might be given a Canadian Whiskey instead of an honest to god Straight Rye. People who think "rye" is shorthand for anything from Canada can be quite argumentative, instead of just giving you a whiskey that actually has "rye" in its name.

Or, even worse, those who believe that "rye" is simply code for "cheap whiskey." I've even run across bartending instructors who make that claim. :nono:

[proxymoron]

Learn to love your whiskey neat. Or suss out your establishment accordingly--you wouldn't expect haute cuisine at Applebee's, would you? Though to be fair, the hardest thing about making a Manhattan is finding good cocktail cherries.

Alternatively, carry a little instruction card but leave a big tip.

[BlackBard]

Partial quote:

I also must say, having tended bar myself, that I didn't care to be told how to make a drink by a customer. It's only fair to tell a bartender if you want the drink to include this or that, if that ingredient is out of the ordinary. But if you want a perfect Manhattan up, ask for that. If the bartender literally does not know what those words mean, either stop trying to order cocktails at that bar, or stop patronizing such an establishment. Don't reward mediocrity, if you can help it.

If you're so fussy about a particular standard-issue drink that you feel compelled to give orders about how to make it, then you probably should just make it yourself at home and save everyone the aggravation.

As for myself, when I go out to a bar, I almost always order something that I cannot or won't bother to make for myself at home. I'd feel pretty silly getting bent out of shape about a bar's margarita, since no one makes them better than I do at home.

I rarely go to bars, but my favorite bar is at The Pine Inn (Il Fornaio) in Carmel, California. I don't tell Jeff how to make drinks. He is the professional. He shows me how to do it properly.

(After years of research, I do think I make the best Margaritas, so I don't order them out, I make my own at home.)

[ackvil]

We have a number of good bars in my area. However, one private club has some of the best bartenders around. If I order a perfect Rob Roy, Manhattan, or Martini they will ask what brand of liquor I favor on that evening (I like to switch around - except for my Martini which is always Bombay Sapphire) and whether it is straight up or on the rocks. One particular bartender asks if you want the Martini shaken or stirred!

[professorchaos]

Make it simple. Mine is easy. Jack on the rocks.

[bassopotamus]

There aren't many decent bartenders locally. We have a "Martini" bar, but I've never had a drink there that didn't suck. A couple of the higher end restaurants have decent bar tenders, but at one (actually my favorite place for food), I was once asked what was in a Manhattan. I decided to just have a beer instead.

[mparker762]

I also must say, having tended bar myself, that I didn't care to be told how to make a drink by a customer. It's only fair to tell a bartender if you want the drink to include this or that, if that ingredient is out of the ordinary. But if you want a perfect Manhattan up, ask for that. If the bartender literally does not know what those words mean, either stop trying to order cocktails at that bar, or stop patronizing such an establishment. Don't reward mediocrity, if you can help it.

If you're so fussy about a particular standard-issue drink that you feel compelled to give orders about how to make it, then you probably should just make it yourself at home and save everyone the aggravation. I've seen massively irritating customers compensate for their persnicketiness by leaving really large tips, but I would honestly rather earn an ordinary, decent tip from someone who respected my professional abilities.

As for myself, when I go out to a bar, I almost always order something that I cannot or won't bother to make for myself at home. I'd feel pretty silly getting bent out of shape about a bar's margarita, since no one makes them better than I do at home. But since I don't have any plans to start infusing my own bitters, or concocting honey-thyme syrups, or investing in a big bottle of an accent liqueur like St. Germain, I'm happy to purchase drinks involving such things at good cocktail bars where they know their craft. And thank the heavens, there is one such bar in town. Most bars here (and probably anywhere) are not run by cocktail enthusiasts or liquor experts, and won't know a lot of stuff that we insufferable snobby boozehounds take for granted.


This attitude really p*sses me of.

If I prefer 3 drops of peychaud's in my sazerac instead of 7, or if I prefer english sidecars to french sidecars, or if I don't want my absinthe set on fire, I would expect a good bartender to accept those as reasonable requests.

I'm the one paying for it. I'm the one that will be drinking it. He can make the drink just the way he wants it, on his own time, and on his own nickel.

If you're a good bartender and capable of making a decent cocktail (hot slippery nipple on the beach doesn't count) then I'll be glad to give your version a try. I'm not so persnickety that I always insist on getting it my own way. But if I don't like it then I can stop patronizing that establishment, or I can let the bartender know how I want it made. One of these results in a loss of income for that bartender's employer, one of these does not. Which do you think the owner would prefer? Why do you think he cares about the bartender's feelings in the matter?

While "stop patronizing that establishment" is my first line of defense against poor cocktails, it isn't always applicable. There are some very good restaurants and pubs that don't have the foggiest idea how to make a sidecar or sazerac without being told - it's not a matter of making my own particular favorite sazerac or sidecar, they don't know how to make them at all. I'm not going to tell the wife that we're going to the one restaurant in 10 miles that can make me a decent sazerac. I'm gonna take her to the restaurant she wants to go to, and if they don't know how to make whatever cocktail I want that evening, then I'll courteously hand them one of my little recipe cards. And if a restaurant or pub that we really like is prone to putting seltzer in their whisky sours then I'll give them a whisky sour recipe card to use for mine, without a second's twinge over the poor bartender's hurt little feelings, because if he can't make a decent whisky sour for chrissakes then he needs to hear it from somebody.

[langod]

I also must say, having tended bar myself, that I didn't care to be told how to make a drink by a customer. It's only fair to tell a bartender if you want the drink to include this or that, if that ingredient is out of the ordinary. But if you want a perfect Manhattan up, ask for that. If the bartender literally does not know what those words mean...

In that case they should ASK for clarification. Unfortunately, too many bartenders -- even good ones -- won't, they'll just make what most patrons seem to like. This is sadly true even at fairly high-end restaurants and bars.
I like a "standard" martini, dirty and "up" -- with a 5 or 6:1 ratio of gin to vermouth. Sadly bartenders seem to think that a Standard Martini is a cold glass of gin or vodka. They have no idea anymore that Martinis: a) should be gin, unless otherwise specified, b) should contain vermouth, and c) should contain at least 3 olives.
I've tried ordering "standard" martinis, a "dirty martini, medium dry" and various other ways. Still often ends up as a cold glass of gin. I even had a bartender at a particular well-known and well-regarded "Martini Bar" tell me she wasn't sure they HAD any vermouth.
Needless to say, I rarely order a Martini when I'm out anymore.

[GarageBoy]

There's a difference between "can I have a Sazerac, light on the Peychauds" and ::shoves card at the bartender and saying "make this"

[Go West Young Man]

So.... Do you send the chef the recipe you want him to make, too?

[BlackBard]

So.... Do you send the chef the recipe you want him to make, too?

You know, Chris, you asked the same question, in this thread, back in July. As I recall, you never got an answer.

When I want to know how something is prepared, I just ask in advance. If the answer is not to my liking, I don't order that item (food or drink). I would not presume to tell the staff how to do their job. That is the owner/manager's job. I don't mean this to be too uptight, it is OK to ask for more or less of something (say, vermouth in a martini) or a particular brand of gin, but is is not OK to micromanage the process.

So, I'll ask Chris' question again, too. "Do you send the chef the recipe you want him to make, too?"

[mparker762]

There's a difference between "can I have a Sazerac, light on the Peychauds" and ::shoves card at the bartender and saying "make this"

That's very true. Telling a bartender to "make me a Sazerac, light on the Peychaud's" is surpassingly unlikely to result in him giving me a Sazerac that is light on the Peychaud's since very few bartenders have even heard of it, much less know the outlines of how to make it. Giving him the recipe is much more likely path to success, requiring only his ability to read, and possession of the necessary ingredients.

[mparker762]

So.... Do you send the chef the recipe you want him to make, too?

No. But there's a big difference between the two situations. When I go to a restaurant I order from the menu - it is a reasonable assumption that the chef knows how to make his own dishes, if he doesn't then there's no salvaging the situation. When I order a Sazerac or gimlet or mint julep or vesper it is almost certainly "off menu", and it is not a reasonable assumption that the bartender knows how to make one. If I'm at a cocktail lounge that has Sazerac on the menu then I'll just order a Sazerac without the directions. If it turns out that it's not to my liking, then the next one I will order with alterations - "light on the Peychaud's" or "with Demerara sugar". But so far the few places I've found that knew how to make a Sazerac also knew how to make a decent one.

[proxymoron]

This is veering into Springs1 country. Just sayin'.

[BlackBard]

This is veering into Springs1 country. Just sayin'.

+1

[Go West Young Man]

No. But there's a big difference between the two situations. When I go to a restaurant I order from the menu - it is a reasonable assumption that the chef knows how to make his own dishes, if he doesn't then there's no salvaging the situation. When I order a Sazerac or gimlet or mint julep or vesper it is almost certainly "off menu", and it is not a reasonable assumption that the bartender knows how to make one. If I'm at a cocktail lounge that has Sazerac on the menu then I'll just order a Sazerac without the directions. If it turns out that it's not to my liking, then the next one I will order with alterations - "light on the Peychaud's" or "with Demerara sugar". But so far the few places I've found that knew how to make a Sazerac also knew how to make a decent one.


My comments were directed at the gentleman who makes a practice of handing the bartender a laminated instruction sheet....

[mparker762]

My comments were directed at the gentleman who makes a practice of handing the bartender a laminated instruction sheet....

The gentleman to whom you referred is me.

This exchange in a famous book seems germane to the discussion:



"A dry martini," [He] said. "One. In a deep champagne goblet."

"Oui, monsieur."

"Just a moment. Three measures of Gordon's, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it's ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon peel. Got it?"

"Certainly, monsieur." The barman seemed pleased with the idea.

[Ethan.Bassist.]

I don't really want to get involved here, but that's a little different situation. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Bond is giving the barkeep a novel recipe, not a vote of no confidence in the barkeep's ability to make a dry martini.

I hold the opinion that you should order to the bar's ability. I went to Applebees a while back and ordered an Old Fashioned. Our bartender a) Knew what it was and b) Was impressed that I wanted one. He gave me Man Points lol I was surprised though that he knew what it was. I mean, I was at Applebees.

If I ask for a drink and they don't know what it is, I'll choose something simpler.

I feel like cocktailery (I put forth that this be made a word... The activity of making cocktails) is an artform. Each bartender is going to have their own preference as to what the drink should taste like. They should all be in the same arena as each other, but they will have their own nuances. I feel like giving out cards is like commissioning an artist to do a piece for you and then instructing their every brushstroke. It takes the element of art out of it. You tell the artist what you're seeing in your head and they work off of that while being creative and adding their own touch. You tell the barkeep what you're seeing in your head (the name of the drink is sufficient to describe what you want usually, unless you want this or that added or subtracted.) and they run with that and give you something they think you'll like. If you want your own art, make it yourself and forget the artist.

Also, I mean no disrespect here. :)

[BlackBard]

Partial quote:

I don't really want to get involved here, but that's a little different situation. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Bond is giving the barkeep a novel recipe, not a vote of no confidence in the barkeep's ability to make a dry martini.

I hold the opinion that you should order to the bar's ability. I went to Applebees a while back and ordered an Old Fashioned. Our bartender a) Knew what it was and b) Was impressed that I wanted one. He gave me Man Points lol I was surprised though that he knew what it was. I mean, I was at Applebees.

If I ask for a drink and they don't know what it is, I'll choose something simpler.

I feel like cocktailery (I put forth that this be made a word... The activity of making cocktails) is an artform. Each bartender is going to have their own preference as to what the drink should taste like. They should all be in the same arena as each other, but they will have their own nuances. I feel like giving out cards is like commissioning an artist to do a piece for you and then instructing their every brushstroke....If you want your own art, make it yourself and forget the artist.



I feel the same about getting or not getting involved, but it is taking a lot of restraint for me to keep the flames down in the face of such pomposity.

"Mr. Bond" is a fictional character. He was ordering a fictional drink, not a martini (no matter what he chose to call it).

An Old Fashioned is a simple and traditional cocktail. I would expect anyone behind a bar to know how to make one. There are many variations, so his/her recipe may be different from my favorite. That, in itself, will not make him/her wrong.

I can grill a great steak at home, but I still like to order them out, sometimes.

"cocktailery" = mixology

David

[mparker762]

"Mr. Bond" is a fictional character. He was ordering a fictional drink, not a martini (no matter what he chose to call it).

A sazerac, sidecar, vesper, or gimlet may as well be a fictional drink if the bartender doesn't know how to make it. Bartenders don't know how to make them because nobody orders them anymore. It's either vodka martinis, manhattans, slippery nipples or sex on the beach or some other gimmicky drink, and sometimes an old coot orders something exotic like an old fashioned or whisky sour (which will be made with a mix).

I have yet to have a bartender get offended by my little recipes (or they hid it as they should). I've had bartenders mention to me on later visits that they were curious about my cocktail and had made one for themselves after closing (using the recipe card I left with them) and enjoyed it. I think they were happy to get a request that was out of the ordinary. And in at least one pub I later saw sidecar on the menu (didn't last, I was probably the only guy drinking them), and several places now at least have the recipe in the computer.

Maybe it's because I live in a cocktail wasteland (West Houston). I've had very good luck in New Orleans, except for the one bar that thought the proper way to serve Absinthe was set it on fire. The sad thing was they had real absinthe fountains but no idea what they were or how to use them. The old bartender working the midday shift at Pat O'Briens restored my faith in man, he knew every cocktail I ordered and suggested several others and they were all wonderful. He's the one that introduced me to Sidecars. (Sadly the younger hipper bartenders working the evening shift were a waste of time). There is one pub I know of in Houston inside the loop near Rice that is apparently a real cocktail bar, they have something like 100 classic cocktail on their menu, but they're 45 mins away and the wife is a teetotaler, so its not really practical for me.


An Old Fashioned is a simple and traditional cocktail. I would expect anyone behind a bar to know how to make one. There are many variations, so his/her recipe may be different from my favorite. That, in itself, will not make him/her wrong.

I don't have a recipe card for old fashioned's, though I've been tempted - I've had some pretty undrinkable old fashioned's. The usual sin seems to be using seltzer to top up the glass, so a simple "hold the seltzer" sometimes helps.

[BlackBard]

I find the idea of a bar having a menu to be an interesting concept. I have been to restaurants that included bar menus in their food menus, but only recently (about a year ago) saw a bar menu in a bar. I have always thought that a decent bar should be able to make about every drink, except for the most esoteric, without needing a menu to limit the selection. The times they are a-changin'.

[Ethan.Bassist.]

Mixology! That's the word I was looking for! ...But I'm still going to use cocktailery. Give it about 20 years. It'll come around. ;) It's gonna be like 'Google'!

And I'm glad you're having such success with your cards, mparker762. I will not be using them. But I'm glad it's working for you.

[GarageBoy]

Here in NYC's cocktail scene- the young hip bartenders are the ones you want. They're eager to learn, have learned a lot and care for what they do

I wouldn't pull the cards at Death and Co, Employees Only, etc

[BlackBard]

I don't have a recipe card for old fashioned's, though I've been tempted - I've had some pretty undrinkable old fashioned's. The usual sin seems to be using seltzer to top up the glass, so a simple "hold the seltzer" sometimes helps.

Another innovative approach. Do you also ask the bartender to "hold the olive?" Neither olives nor seltzer belong in an Old Fashioned. Why stop there? Ask the bartender to hold everything that does not belong in the drink.

Wait a minute. I have an idea. Why not just have a card that can be given to the bartender that specifies exactly which ingredients and in what proportions and order constitute the proper way to prepare your libation? That way you won't look like an ignorant clown telling a competent professional to leave out something that he/she would not have included in the first place.

Problem solved.

[mparker762]

Another innovative approach. Do you also ask the bartender to "hold the olive?" Neither olives nor seltzer belong in an Old Fashioned. Why stop there? Ask the bartender to hold everything that does not belong in the drink.


If I ever run across a bartender that puts olives in his old fashioneds you can be sure that when I order mine, I will request "no olives". When I discovered that one of the bartenders at a local pub used seltzer liberally in his "personal variation" of an old-fashioned I started asking him to leave it out. Since he got the other ingredients correct, there was no need for a recipe card.



Wait a minute. I have an idea. Why not just have a card that can be given to the bartender that specifies exactly which ingredients and in what proportions and order constitute the proper way to prepare your libation? That way you won't look like an ignorant clown telling a competent professional to leave out something that he/she would not have included in the first place.

I think you missed the part in my post where I indicated that the bartender in question did indeed put seltzer in his old fashioneds - that was not a hypothetical. I'm sure it was just his "personal variation, neither right nor wrong" no doubt. But not one to my taste, so I asked him to hold the seltzer next time.

I really don't understand the furor over this. If I order a cocktail and the bartender asks me how to make it, why not tell him? After the fourth or fifth time this happened, I made up some recipe cards for my wallet. When I order a sidecar and they ask what that is, I can hand them the recipe card. Problem solved. If I order an old fashioned and it comes with seltzer, I ask for one without it. Problem solved.

I know I'm not the only one with a superfluity of incompetent bartenders - there was a thread about it awhile back, which is where I got the idea about the recipe cards:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/147856-The-four-obscure-drinks-every-bartender-should-know

I'm curious why you seem so snarky about my post. Are you a bartender by chance?

[mparker762]

The menus aren't a bad idea actually, especially if they indicate what's in the drink. It's a good way to try new and interesting cocktails of which you may have otherwise been unaware. That old bartender in N.O., for example, noticed that I liked margaritas and whisky sours, and suggested I try a sidecar. Had it been a busy time of day he wouldn't have been able to provide that level of personalized service, but given a reasonably descriptive menu I might well have noted the family resemblance and made the choice myself.

[BlackBard]

I really don't understand the furor over this. If I order a cocktail and the bartender asks me how to make it, why not tell him? After the fourth or fifth time this happened, I made up some recipe cards for my wallet. When I order a sidecar and they ask what that is, I can hand them the recipe card. Problem solved. If I order an old fashioned and it comes with seltzer, I ask for one without it. Problem solved.

Have I misunderstood? I thought you gave the card to the bartender along with your order. You did say in post #14, "I have a set of cards with recipes on them, printed out 10/page on the printer and cut up with some scissors. They're just the right size to fit in my wallet. I'll just hand it to the waitress when I place the order "I'd like an X made like this"."

Now you say that it is only after the bartender failed to make a satisfactory drink, or made it known that he/she had no idea how to make the drink and was not willing to check the recipe book or card file that most bars keep, that you resorted to the recipe card strategy.


I know I'm not the only one with a superfluity of incompetent bartenders - there was a thread about it awhile back, which is where I got the idea about the recipe cards:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/147856-The-four-obscure-drinks-every-bartender-should-know

I'm curious why you seem so snarky about my post. Are you a bartender by chance?

I read all the posts in the thread you mentioned. I guess I don't get out enough. I did not realize the level of mixology incompetence that seems be everywhere. Naturally, some bartenders make certain drinks better than others. Sometimes I have been surprised at how well a certain drink is made, eg. the best Bloody Mary (Moonstone Beach Bar and Grill, Cambria) or Mai Tai (Pine Inn, Carmel).

While you may regard my attitude as snarky, I regard telling a professional how to do his/her job unnecessarily condescending. And, no, I am not a bartender. I leave that job to the professionals.

[mparker762]

Have I misunderstood? I thought you gave the card to the bartender along with your order. You did say in post #14, "I have a set of cards with recipes on them, printed out 10/page on the printer and cut up with some scissors. They're just the right size to fit in my wallet. I'll just hand it to the waitress when I place the order "I'd like an X made like this"."

Now you say that it is only after the bartender failed to make a satisfactory drink, or made it known that he/she had no idea how to make the drink and was not willing to check the recipe book or card file that most bars keep, that you resorted to the recipe card strategy.


It varies by bar, drink, and time. I tried ordering Sazeracs for awhile but after a half-dozen blank stares or worse "Vodka or Gin?" I gave up altogether. Once I poached the card idea from this forum I just give them the Sazerac recipe card with the order; saves time, avoids confusion, and that way the bartender doesn't have to admit ignorance. Same with a sidecar, vesper or gimlet. For a whisky sour, old fashioned, or manhattan I'll go ahead and attempt the order; sometimes they know what it is, sometimes they don't and ask me at which point they get the recipe card. If they fail to make a satisfactory cocktail without the recipe (seltzer/olive in an old fashioned, vermouth-free martini) then I'll ask for alterations. There's only a half-dozen "classic" cocktails that seem to be widely known around here (old fashioned, whisky sour, gin&tonic, manhattan, bloody mary), anything else and you'll have to help them.

I should probably also give an example of one of my recipe cards.

Sidecar
1 cognac/brandy
1 cointreau/grand marnier/triple sec
1 lemon juice
shaken, in an old-fashioned glass

This solves a number of problems besides the fundamental knowledge problem: There's no yelling out directions to the waitress over the noise, no worries that she might mishear something or forget part of it on the way back to the bar, and the bartender knows the acceptable substitutions without having to send the waitress back and forth.

[tchudson]

You know, I have a friend who ran a cocktail bar in Mexico and a wine/bourbon store in Brooklyn. She used to get so fed up going to Manhattan with friends and ordering cocktails at outrageous prices only to have them be made incorrectly. You'd think the places would have some sort of online database for making cocktails....

[Ethan.Bassist.]

You know, I have a friend who ran a cocktail bar in Mexico and a wine/bourbon store in Brooklyn. She used to get so fed up going to Manhattan with friends and ordering cocktails at outrageous prices only to have them be made incorrectly. You'd think the places would have some sort of online database for making cocktails....

Actually, yeah. Why don't they? If I were a burgeoning bartender (which sounds attractive to me), I would absolutely have SOMETHING on hand to look recipes up. Whether it be a little binder I made of classic and popular cocktails or an internet database. I'm not above that. Not at all. I'd be embarrassed not if I didn't know how to make a drink, but if I refused to look it up and made a poor drink. Unacceptable.

Also: Cocktailery. Learn it. Breathe it. Love it. By Georgio Armani...whoa whoa whoa, sorry. I got into my fragrance commercial voice. I couldn't stop myself. Cocktailery.

[BlackBard]

Actually, yeah. Why don't they? If I were a burgeoning bartender (which sounds attractive to me), I would absolutely have SOMETHING on hand to look recipes up. Whether it be a little binder I made of classic and popular cocktails or an internet database. I'm not above that. Not at all. I'd be embarrassed not if I didn't know how to make a drink, but if I refused to look it up and made a poor drink. Unacceptable.

Also: Cocktailery. Learn it. Breathe it. Love it. By Georgio Armani...whoa whoa whoa, sorry. I got into my fragrance commercial voice. I couldn't stop myself. Cocktailery.

No need to reinvent the wheel. There are dozens, even hundreds of drink recipe books. There are on line sources, too. Also, nothing wrong with an index card box full of recipes, either, in case your internet connection goes down. Many bartenders have and use reference books (and other sources).

[Ethan.Bassist.]

No need to reinvent the wheel. There are dozens, even hundreds of drink recipe books. There are on line sources, too. Also, nothing wrong with an index card box full of recipes, either, in case your internet connection goes down. Many bartenders have and use reference books (and other sources).

No I know full well they exist, my dad has one in fact. I know the vastness of drink recipe sources. With all the complaints of getting poor drinks though, I wonder why a bartender (who apparently doesn't know his/her 'classics') wouldn't use one more often. Ideally, with all the resources a bartender can have at his fingertips, every drink made ever should be decent at least.

I haven't had a bad mixed drink yet maybe I'm just picky, I just see a lot of complaining going on.

[mparker762]

My guess is they don't have time, they've got a dozen orders stacked up and it's easier to play dumb and hope I order a beer or whisky on the rocks. It also wouldn't surprise me if they've got the "standards" pre-mixed in a gallon jug under the bar.

[Ethan.Bassist.]

Yeah, I thought about that. It would take more time to look a recipe up. Well either way, a good bartender should be able to make drinks properly.

[Ethan.Bassist.]

Okay, I was at Applebees last night and it wasn't busy, so I ordered a Manhattan (if it were busy, I'd have ordered something more mainstream). The bartender told me she had made them before, but hadn't in a while. I knew it was rye, vermouth, bitters, and whatever, but I didn't know exactly. So she looked it up on her phone, but her phone wasn't working, so my friend looked it up on his. And she made it! I appreciated it a lot.

It was a delicious drink, though I think Manhattans call for a twist of orange, not orange muddled in the drink. Oh well. I'm glad she looked it up! :)