You want hard? You can't handle hard

[Seraphim]

You want hard?

You can’t handle hard.

Son, we live in a world that has whiskers, and those whiskers have to be shaved by men with razors. Who's gonna do it? You Shick? You, Lt. Gillette?

I have a greater insanity than you could possibly fathom. You weep for sharpness, and you curse having to hone. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Tungsten is hard, super hard, probably the hardest thing you could possibly hone. And my lapping films, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, sharpen tungsten.

You don't want the synthetic hones but deep down in places you don't talk about in the honing forums, you want me on that film, you need me on that film.

We use words like Rockwell, diamond, micron. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent honing razors. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to men who lather and shave under the edge of the very razor that I hone, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a blade, and start honing. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Kaffee: Did you hone a tungsten blade?
Colonel Seraphim: I did the job I...
Kaffee: *DID YOU HONE A TUNGSTEN BLADE?*
Colonel Seraphim: *YOU’RE GODDAMN RIGHT I DID!*


I haven't shave tested it yet, but it is HHTing quite nicely....

Yes, a tungsten blade.:w00t:

[tag-and-log]

This is madness!

[fccexpert]

I presume you mean it is eather a tungsten steel (such as high speed tool steel) or something like tungsten carbide (actually a ceramic, not a metal).

[Seraphim]

I presume you mean it is eather a tungsten steel (such as high speed tool steel) or something like tungsten carbide (actually a ceramic, not a metal).

Tungsten carbide, yes.



Typical Hardness Values for Common Materials

Material
Brinell Hardness

Pure Aluminum
15

Pure Copper
35

Mild Steel
120

304 Stainless Steel
250

Hardened Tool Steel
650/700

Hard Chromium Plate
1000

Chromium Carbide
1200*

Tungsten Carbide
1400*

Titanium Carbide
2400*

Diamond
8000*

Sand
1000*

* Vickers Hardness

[dakotaev]

Subscribed. Interested to see how the shave goes :)

[mvh]

So how did it shave? :D

[LessLemming]

Gott im Himmel!

[ken123]

I can handle hard :) Now you don't want your face to get a 'code red' from a rough shave :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo

Classic! Love the 'rework' of his speech. I'l be chuckling all day thinking about it.

---
Ken

[thatsilverguy]

You have finally found your vorpal blade!

Please let us know if it really does make a "snicker-snack!" sound. :straight:

[honed]

Craig, will you marry me?

[Seraphim]

Craig, will you marry me?

Are you rich?

[honed]

Are you rich?
Dang, I just remembered. I'm all ready married. But she sure don't make Vorpal Blades.

Absolutely friggin' AWESOME work!!

[fccexpert]

Tungsten carbide, yes.





Hard but brittle, like most ceramics.

[Seraphim]

Hard but brittle, like most ceramics.

I can say that from the honing alone tungsten carbide is much less brittle than zirconium carbide:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/238109-Seraphim-Seramix-Redux?highlight=Redux

[Kentos]

I assume one could fit in a Feather?.......

[Seraphim]

I assume one could fit in a Feather?.......

Oh yes.....

[Debrushman]

You need to include more information. For example, the thickness of the material,was it hardened when you received it or after it was shaped, what's the angle of the bevel? etc.
Do you think that a blade like that will shave better with tool oil instead of shaving cream?
Great work, we all look forward to the shave report.

[Seraphim]

You need to include more information. For example, the thickness of the material,was it hardened when you received it or after it was shaped, what's the angle of the bevel? etc.
Do you think that a blade like that will shave better with tool oil instead of shaving cream?
Great work, we all look forward to the shave report.

Came pre hardened with a bevel angle of 37 degrees (see factory fresh edge below). I reset the bevel to ~25 degrees. Blade thickness is 0.015"


Funny you should mention tool oil: I'm also working on my own pre-shave, which will include aloe, glycerine, marshmallow root, vitamin E, and cinnamon oil. I picked up the ingredients just this morning...

[Wid]

Very interesting.

[Brent]

In your other thread I said you are the King of Shenanigans. Now I have to say you're the Titan of Tom Foolery and the Monarch of Monkeyshines.

[JakeBrake]

wow.

[Legion]

Very interesting...

http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy242/p1pe09/Emoticons/artiejohnson.jpg

[mdunn]

Hehehehehehehe.

Shave with it already, man! Im beginning to suspect that YOU CAN'T HANDLE A TUNGSTEN BLADE

[Balcmeg]

+1 This is INSANE! :001_tt1:


Hehehehehehehe.

Shave with it already, man! Im beginning to suspect that YOU CAN'T HANDLE A TUNGSTEN BLADE

[Kentos]

Oh yes.....

Hmmmmmm........
http://tacticalip.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/spock-eyebrow3.jpg

[Alacrity59]

Will you start with sideburns? This is amazing.

[Sullybob]

So, how does she shave?

[DogHair]

And?

[Debrushman]

Shave report or it didn't happen.

[honed]

Oh my :ohmy:

I'm afraid the Mad Scientist finally got overpowered by one of his deranged creations :scared:

[jendeindustries]

Maybe it really went Snicker Snack, through and through!!! :lol:

[LessLemming]

Maybe he shaved himself back in time!
This would make him the first non brazilian to travel backwards in time. Fascinating!

[Seraphim]

Shave report is dissapointing. Edge is not quite there yet...I
think I need to try a lower bevel angle, as the edge was pulling quite a bit.

[PapaFish]

Does it still look good under the microscope? I sure hope that it didn't bust up the edge like it did the Seramic blade you made! What kind of angle are you shooting for next? Where did you pick up such a fine piece of metal?

[honed]

25 is alot, 15-18 is more appropriate.

[Seraphim]

Feathers have a 25degree cutting bevel, which is why I was shooting for that.

[honed]

Feathers have a 25degree cutting bevel, which is why I was shooting for that.
Really?
But sure, they could pull that off, since they are so very thin & "honed" by a machine.
Sure, you are a real machine with those gritty films of yours. But dare I say, not even You could match a Japanese high-tech machine..

I'd spring for a more straight razor like angle.

But on the other side, who the hell am I to come here & throw my opinions around.

After all, you are the King of Shenanigans & a true Wizard of the Whisker Whacking arts.
I mean you have publicly showed that you could make two razors, Gold Dollar & Pakistani PainInflictor, shave-ready & both of these razors where proven with 100% scientific certainty, without any doubt, that they couldn't be made shave-ready.
So surely a pesky piece of Tungsten shouldn't stop you!
You go get him Tiger!

[Seraphim]

The 25 degree measurement was made by a higher authority than I:

http://www.tzknives.com/twobevel.html

And I surely can reduce my bevel angle, but I'll need to redo my honing gizmo to get it there. No problemo.

[honed]

The 25 degree measurement was made by a higher authority than I:

http://www.tzknives.com/twobevel.html

And I surely can reduce my bevel angle, but I'll need to redo my honing gizmo to get it there. No problemo.
I'd love to see a Zowada carbide damascus razor :w00t:

[superfly]

There was a thread on SRP about a company making a tungsten straight razor prototype a long time ago... I believe the deal went off when the guys discovered that tooling tempered tungsten can be quite impossible [and cancerous]...

Nenad

[Seraphim]

I don't believe anything I read on that other forum....:w00t:

[Kentos]

Guffaw!!

[Debrushman]

Was the initial blade a a Valley Grinding razor? Also I concur, 25 degrees wont cut it ( Pardon the pun). 15 to 18 if the blade can take it.

[Debrushman]

Status report update?

[Seraphim]

Update:


Ooooh, Seraphim, this stainless is so hard to hone.....waaaaah!

Seraphim, Carbonsong C135 is so hard to hone.....it is like 63 on the Rockwell scale....I want my mommy!

OK boys, I know you love your coticles and Jnats, but let's be realistic here. If you tried to hone tungsten carbide on your coticle, you'd end up with a pile of coticle dust and a still unsharpened razor.

Tungsten Carbide is 78 on the Rockwell C chart!

I'm still reworking the jig to sharpen at a lower bevel angle. I'll update when completed.

[Debrushman]

This introduces an interesting set of questions. For example, we could hone the blade on anything diamond, but what about stropping on Cro? Would Cro even dent this beast? And for that matter, would the silicates in the leather Strop be capable of adding anything to the blade?
Now don't get me wrong, anything can be honed. But will we be limited to high end diamond and CBN products? Not that we mind that :001_smile
I was wondering if the blade would be tough enough for my son? He's 17 months old, I think I may seen a hair the other day.
Excellent work, everyone here is expecting at least one as a PIF :001_smile

[PapaFish]

what about stropping on Cro? Would Cro even dent this beast?

The hardness information I have found on Cr2O3 (green chromium oxide) says it has a hardness of between 8 and 8.5 on the Mohs scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium%28III%29_oxide). If the scale HERE (http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/12-html/12-08.html)is accurate, then Cr2O3 is between 63 and 70 on the Rockwell C scale, which would mean it is not close to the 78 of Tungsten Carbide quoted above. With that being said, once we start getting to a micron/nano range, particles have smaller defects and can have drastically different properties than large samples, thus the hardness of a 0.5 or 0.3 micron chromium oxide should act harder than large samples. How much harder? It can be anyone's guess. Maybe a test is in order...
Silica Carbide (used in sand paper) and Aluminum Oxide (also used in sand paper) are over 9 on the Mohs scale, as is Ceramic.

[Debrushman]

It looks like we will have to have a special honing routine for this specimen, with new pastes to tame the beast. Can't wait.

[Kentos]

I'm gonna put a foot in my mouth and guess that nothing will polish tungsten effectively except diamond. I have a tungsten wedding band, and none of my buffing compounds make a scratch in it...when I get a new wheel Ill try some CBN and Diamond...

[PapaFish]

I'm gonna put a foot in my mouth and guess that nothing will polish tungsten effectively except diamond. I have a tungsten wedding band, and none of my buffing compounds make a scratch in it...when I get a new wheel Ill try some CBN and Diamond...

Microcrystalline CBN is supposed to be second only to microcrystalline diamond in hardness, and I believe both of these to be harder than diamond. When you use the CBN on your tungsten band, don't be surprised if they don't make a dent just because you have such small particles.
I have a tungsten wedding band also, and have noticed that when working with my Spyderco Ultra Fine (a ceramic stone with Al2O3 abrasive, both ~9 on Moh's hardness) my stainless Order of the Engineer ring leaves residue on the stone, but my tungsten ring does not. I have wondered if it is really doing nothing, or if it is just working so slowly that there is no evidence left behind.

[Seraphim]

Reset bevel to ~17degrees.

Here is the edge at the 6um film level so far....

[Thebigspendur]

Yes I want hard but this ain't it.

What I don't understand is why you are monkeying around with these inferior substances when you should just go with the only logical choice-Boron Nitride or carbide.

This might be an good intellectual exercise but these products are way too brittle and hard to sharpen for real practical every day use.

[Seraphim]

Yes I want hard but this ain't it.

What I don't understand is why you are monkeying around with these inferior substances when you should just go with the only logical choice-Boron Nitride or carbide.

This might be an good intellectual exercise but these products are way too brittle and hard to sharpen for real practical every day use.

Ah yes, why bother actually trying something when it is much easier to say "it'll never work...". Has your own personal experience born out that Tungsten carbide is unsuitable for use in a razor? Or do you simply go by what others tell you to do, ala the modus operendi over at SRP?

Ever hear of the Personna 74 blade? Made of Tungsten (thus the "74", for the atomic number of Tungsten), I don't hear too many complaints about the unsuitabilty of Tungsten in those blades aside from the fact that they are no longer commercially available and command a hefty price on the Bay.

[Debrushman]

They used to say a man would never walk on the moon. Who says tungstan carbide can't work?

[PapaFish]

...we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win!

President John F. Kennedy

[Thebigspendur]

I've dealt with Tungsten Carbide in watch cases and bracelets and the stuff is so brittle you can break it like a piece of cheap plastic with little effort. I can't imagine trying to hone something like that. People have been playing with alloys and materials for some time now and they still haven't surpassed plain old carbon steel for straights anyway. To use a material that does the job and is user friendly in every way precludes most exotic materials. However you still didn't say why you settled on Tungsten and not go to the ultimate Boron.

[Seraphim]

I can't imagine trying to hone something like that..

Well, I'll repeat- instead of having to "imagine" honing tungsten carbide, I've actually gone and done it. Same as I did with ceramic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KvNt5NG-GM&NR=1

Sure, it would have been easier to say to myself "I'll just go with what everyone has always done...", and then proceeded to the outhouse, eschewing such crazy modernities as indoor plumbing, etc. Secure in the knowledge that if it was good enough for my great grandfathers, by golly, it's good enough for anyone! Saddle up the horse, I'm a goin to town....

Please try this little test: go get one of you high quality, full hollow, carbon steel razors and flex the edge....I can promise you that you will also quite easily be able to snap that thing like a piece of cheap plastic, so what's your point?

Yes, tungsten carbide is more difficult and not user friendly, but the exercise here is to see if I can create a razor with much longer edge retention capacity than the tried and true carbon steel razor. Some places quote 100x better edge retention over regular steel. I figure that's worth a shot. Tungsten is also corrosion resistant, so it should also have that advantage over carbon steel.

Did you solve your watch cover breakage issues by switching to boron carbide? Do you know the ratio of tungsten to carbide in those materials you were using? Was it optimized for finest grain structure?

I found tungsten carbide as a fairly widely accepted material for use in many Industrial cutting applications, and so it seemed a good place to start. Boron carbide is a superhard material, but I have not seen much info on it being used as a cutting tool substrate.

[LessLemming]

I don´t see a reason why he should not be encouraged to try to create a tungsten carbide razor *shrug*
Not only did he make a point on how effective and awesome lapping film is,
but he also makes for a good example for a long lost spirit:

If you have an idea, fight for it. You will have a thousand failures but eventually you have a success.
Why? Because with each thing he tries he gains significant experience.
Who the hell in all of the world can say of himself:
I have honed a ceramic blade and shaved myself with it

Nevermind talking about tungsten carbide, or zirconium oxide made razors,
and how it could be done and whatnot. He just did it. And made a point.
Something hundreds of members (including myself) failed to do.
I find that inspiring. Seraphim, please keep up the good work it is always a pleasure to read what you have to say.

[Pkrankow]

I know one way of forming boron carbide is as a case hardening process on medium or high carbon steel. This forms a thin case of boron carbide enriched steel, enhancing strength and wear resistance. I have no idea how this works for razor edge holding, but it is used in some high-end garden implements.

My quick google search seems to indicate that boron carbide is generally used as an abrasive powder, formed with a sintering process (not suitable for razors) or suspended in a softer matrix. The other use is as a neutron absorber in reactors, they use a compressed powder for the high surface area.

Phil

[Balcmeg]

+10


I don´t see a reason why he should not be encouraged to try to create a tungsten carbide razor *shrug*
Not only did he make a point on how effective and awesome lapping film is,
but he also makes for a good example for a long lost spirit:

If you have an idea, fight for it. You will have a thousand failures but eventually you have a success.
Why? Because with each thing he tries he gains significant experience.
Who the hell in all of the world can say of himself:
I have honed a ceramic blade and shaved myself with it

Nevermind talking about tungsten carbide, or zirconium oxide made razors,
and how it could be done and whatnot. He just did it. And made a point.
Something hundreds of members (including myself) failed to do.
I find that inspiring. Seraphim, please keep up the good work it is always a pleasure to read what you have to say.

[danjared]

So, did you manage to get this to shave without pulling?

[Seraphim]

I have to pull this project out of mothballs....

Lately I've actually had to be working at work!

[danjared]

Lately I've actually had to be working at work!

Nonsense...

[Seraphim]

Nonsense...

OK.....

Lately I've had to be a lot more secretive about screwing around at work...that's more like it.

[Kentos]

I wonder if you could put a secondary bevel on it with diamond sprays? Or did you already try...this was a while ago.

[Seraphim]

I wonder if you could put a secondary bevel on it with diamond sprays? Or did you already try...this was a while ago.

A secondary bevel would increase the bevel angle. I need to work to reduce the bevel angle, which requires quite a bit of bulk material removal. I just need to go do it.

When I get around to it...

[kingping]

One word: JaNorton!:001_rolle

[Kentos]

A secondary bevel would increase the bevel angle. I need to work to reduce the bevel angle, which requires quite a bit of bulk material removal. I just need to go do it.

When I get around to it...

Rats...I need to reread to get up to speed again :)

[danjared]

I would think that it depends on the cause of the pulling. How did the edge look under the microscope after trying to shave with it?

[cb91710]

Are those photos from the 400x Veho?

Either your photos look nothing like mine, or my edges look nothing like yours :wink:

212676

I think this was my 4th attempt at honing.
Wacker 15/16. Norton 4k/8k, Naniwa 12k, followed by Mountain Mike's fabric then leather.

[Kentos]

If your edge isnt ceramic it wont look anything like his.

[cb91710]

If your edge isnt ceramic it wont look anything like his.
His Gold Dollars look just like that though. No noticeable bevel.

[Kentos]

I think he goes up to higher magnification....and he strops on pasted hanging leather. His paste is a trade secret :).

[Legion]

I think he goes up to higher magnification....and he strops on pasted hanging leather. His paste is a trade secret :).

Don't even ask. You don't want to know. :tongue_sm

[tomjr]

Hmmmmmm!

[Debrushman]

I heard that his blades are stropped on the hide side of the mythical Golden Fleece.

[jdto]

I want to see this blade in action.

[Giant Kiwi]

Have you tried Chuck Norris' beard as a bevel setter?
Might be tough enough?

[Seraphim]

Are those photos from the 400x Veho?

Either your photos look nothing like mine, or my edges look nothing like yours :wink:

212676

.

I think this was my 4th attempt at honing.
Wacker 15/16. Norton 4k/8k, Naniwa 12k, followed by Mountain Mike's fabric then leather.

Mine is not a veeho. My magnification is much greater than that, basically, on your pic, my scope would show about the last half of the bevel where the dark gray part nearest the edge is. I have no idea what the actual magnification is, as that is a product of the combination of objective lens power, camera imaging size and distance from objective to the camera

[mycarver]

I have nothing to offer in the way of blade materials and their use. I just applaud the spirit of the approach and the willingness to try new things. Bravo! In this case there will be no failures,, only successes in knowledge gained. Personally, my career is based on doing things others said can't be done. I've always been a bit of a contrarian though.

[johnnyxxl]

Nice thread never thought of making own nlade

[Slash McCoy]

This project, like most of its ilk, is a win/win proposition. Either way, something is learned.

But what I really want to learn is WILL IT SHAVE? I am waiting!

[cb91710]

Mine is not a veeho. My magnification is much greater than that, basically, on your pic, my scope would show about the last half of the bevel where the dark gray part nearest the edge is. I have no idea what the actual magnification is, as that is a product of the combination of objective lens power, camera imaging size and distance from objective to the camera
Ahh... that makes sense.

I really need to make a bracket to clip the blade in that is attached to the scope. I'm having two problems, one is holding everything steady, and the other is related... maintaining distance while operating the focusing ring.
I would REALLY like to have a unit that controls both zoom and focus from the computer.

[HyzerFlip]

I apologize for being really stupid but...mind laying out a "this is what I started with, this is what I've done, this is what I tried, this is how I'm going to use it" kind of description?

I mean, I don't need the nitty gritty, I wouldn't understand it anyway..

[Seraphim]

Reset bevel to close to 18 degrees.

Passes HHT

[Seraphim]

I apologize for being really stupid but...mind laying out a "this is what I started with, this is what I've done, this is what I tried, this is how I'm going to use it" kind of description?

I mean, I don't need the nitty gritty, I wouldn't understand it anyway..


"this is what I started with
An industrial tungsten cutting blade



this is what I've done
Reset the bevel from 37 degrees, to a "standard" razor cutting bevel angle of ~18 degrees.



this is how I'm going to use it
I will scrape my face with it to remove whiskers.

[Seraphim]

Did I mention that I can load this bad boy into a Feather?


I'm of to give 'er a go.....

[PapaFish]

Good luck with the results!

[1Speedster]

Whoa or something.

[Seraphim]

Before and after the shave.


The shave itself was nothing to write home about. Definitely BBS, but the feel of the shave still left something to be desired. I'd give it about a "7" on the shave scale.

If a razor doesn't score at least an 8-9, I feel cheated...

I may give it another re-hone at some point down the road, but I'll take a break from it for a while again.

[honed]

Awesome!!

[mycarver]

I have no doubt you'll achieve it. Wonderful thread. Thank you.

[Kentos]

I prefer "unfulfilled" myself. If the edge lasts for 16 years it may be a commercially viable trade off.

[paco664]

that is a pretty dang durable edge....

what does one of your normal edges look like before and after?

[Seraphim]

that is a pretty dang durable edge....

what does one of your normal edges look like before and after?

Check my Gold Dollar 74 review thread for some before end after pics of edges.

[Pkrankow]

I think the GD held up better. You going to try a microbevel edge? take it down to say 15 degrees, and put a 18 degree microbevel on it? That might give a good balance between a fine edge profile to reduce drag and a durable edge. There is an obvious chip in the edge, but that may have been there before the shave...

Phil

[Seraphim]

From my viewing, yes it does appear that there was some edge degradation for the tungsten edge due to shaving.

[paco664]

When will you try obsidian?

[Slash McCoy]

I am fixing to go out and find a piece of flint and knap it with a deer antler, then bind it into a handle with sinew.

[danjared]

Is the next step trying 20-22 degrees?

[Seraphim]

Next step would be to try something along the lines of what pkrankow describes a couple of posts ago. But have the secondary bevel be as you describe; slightly more obtuse for better edge durability.

[Brent]

When will you try obsidian?

He may skip that and go straight to diamond...

[paco664]

i have a line on some M2 steel.......... it is air hardening and reaches 66HRC........

my buddy with the machine shop uses it for special blades they manufacture for the cutting of glitter......

this is a photo of one of the cutting edges taken with a microscope....... those gaps are 4thousandths of a inch apart....

http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/IMG404.jpg

[Jporco]

That blade looks a bit to grippy for my taste!

[paco664]

That blade looks a bit to grippy for my taste!

Lol... Looking at the piece you can't see them... The metal looks lightly textured...

[cb91710]

i have a line on some M2 steel.......... it is air hardening and reaches 66HRC........

my buddy with the machine shop uses it for special blades they manufacture for the cutting of glitter......

this is a photo of one of the cutting edges taken with a microscope....... those gaps are 4thousandths of a inch apart....

http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/IMG404.jpg
Looks just like a Derby!