Educate about prices please.

[KM-instructor]

This is inspired by the sale of the brush that is marked at $675, what is it that makes a brush this valuable please?, are the knots the key thing OR handles, asssembly, machine made handmade, Name??/

This is not a dig at the one for sale by no means , but merely a question about the value of any brush, and how to know what to look for, and what price goes with that brush.

[eastomjac]

!!HUH!!omg...whish i could sell a dozen of those:}could you provide a link to the brush in question?sounds like a case of over B.A.D. to me.

[eastomjac]

i get chills at paying $50 for a silvertip.guess the world has really gone mad.LOL

[spindlecone]

IMO, is no better than any quality Brush for the intended purpose.
Plisson also has an ivory handled brush for 1850 euro.

[KM-instructor]

!!HUH!!omg...whish i could sell a dozen of those:}could you provide a link to the brush in question?sounds like a case of over B.A.D. to me.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/241676-Plisson-Plexi-HMW-20

i get chills at paying $50 for a silvertip.guess the world has really gone mad.LOL

Well i don't own any brush over 30 bucks, but I would spend more if i knew what I was getting and at what price point is good for the brush.

[KM-instructor]

IMO, is no better than any quality Brush for the intended purpose.
Plisson also has an ivory handled brush for 1850 euro.
What makes it that value though? it has to be a supreme brush to warrant that price tag?

[ssultan]

Then, my friend, you haven't reached out to Plisson to inquire about their genuine ivory offerings which can cost in the thousands (USD) depending on the size you go for! In the equivalent knot sizes, depending on your handle options, shavemacs can get almost as expensive as their Plisson brothers. There are Rooney's costing over $400 a piece...I would argue that the rooney is no better really than my chubby costing a lot less...and that it's all in my head...do I find owning and using the Rooney (or for that matter the Plisson) pleasurable, yes I do...it's very personal really...I know fellows that have purchased limited run chubbys, each costing over $500 a piece and thoroughly enjoy using them...

[franz]

DrP is a noted brush collector. A custom made, large-knotted (Plisson size 20 = 28mm diameter, I think) brush in Plisson's rarest hair varietal ("High Mountain White") is a very expensive proposition.

FWIW, another one of our members bought a similarly sized Plisson in that hair grade recently, the difference being its genuine ivory handle. It was quite a bit more expensive (http://www.rasageplisson.com/epages/161058.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/161058/Products/P955059.20) than $675.

In this territory, you are paying for rarity, just like any collectible.

[eastomjac]

has to name from what i see,that and the ability to say see what i got?i wanted a silver tip but refused to pay for one untill i found tgn,now ive got a silvertip in a nice restored ever-ready 200t and brother what a brush:}o and ive got maybe $30 total in it:}the second set is a c40 er and a china brush with woodcrafter knots that are $10 apiece and they still havet shed a hair.good brushes /razors ect dont have to break the bank if you will look around.

[franz]

Guys, I would recommend deleting any posts you may have made in DrP's BST thread... this thread is the place to get answers without detracting from the sale.

[ssultan]

Good call Francesco...agree with this whole heartedly. Wish Peter the best of luck with his sale. I'll go and the BST thread...

Edit: I cleaned out any irrelevant posts I had made. I suggest we all do the same gentlemen.

[Greyfox]

Above a certain price point the cost goes into horns and whistles and doesn't add one whit to the overall quality of the brush. On the other hand there is something very special about using something like a brush that is unique for some reason and the pride in ownership does add to the owner's pleasure. How much value added is up for dispute and varies among brush collectors.

[ssultan]

+1. That just about sums it up perfectly.


Above a certain price point the cost goes into horns and whistles and doesn't add one whit to the overall quality of the brush. On the other hand there is something very special about using something like a brush that is unique for some reason and the pride in ownership does add to the owner's pleasure. How much value added is up for dispute and varies among brush collectors.

[captp]

Custom made, one off, highest grade of their hair, and it's French; that pretty much says it all. I've been drooling over their genuine horn for many months, but it's over twice the highest I've ever paid for a brush (Chubby2 Super). If I really had the 400 or so to spend, I would get 10 Simpson Specials to add to my Active Duty PIF; the Special is one of my favorites.

[Angry__Panda]

You guys seem surprised at the cost of ivory. This is a material that is probably one of the rarest on the planet (most places it is illegal to sell...Like the US). If I had the cash and the legal mind I would buy an ivory handled brush in a heartbeat. If you have seen ivory up close you know what I am talking about.

Seriously though, as some people have said, at that point it is all about the collectible aspect (some of us collectors do use our collection despite probably devaluing it considerably). I am hoping to work with Mr. Vey to get a quality one of a kind brush made and I expect to pay quite a bit (saving now ;) ). Why? Because a quality craftsman is going to make something that is valuable to a select few people. Will I use this brush? Hell yes, probably daily, but I am weird like that lol.

Anyways the brush for sale is super gorgeous, wish I could afford to drop money like that, unfortunately the reality of it is I can't :( .

[spindlecone]

Ivory is not illegal to sell within the united states,It takes approx 8oz of Ivory to turn a handle the size of the largest simpson.
The currant W'sale price of Ivory is $65.00/lb.

[Rudy Vey]

Ivory is not illegal to sell within the united states,It takes approx 8oz of Ivory to turn a handle the size of the largest simpson.
The currant W'sale price of Ivory is $65.00/lb.

I agree with you in the legal aspect, but you always saying Ivory is not expensive, I really would like to know where I can buy a pound of ivory for $65 - I'd buy 10 lbs immediately. The legal sources I use are way more expensive.
Here is the only reference I found:
Wholesale price of ivory:

1990s: $100 per kilogram
2004: $200 per kilogram,
2006: to $750 per kilogram
2007: to $850 per kilogram

[Blue Raccoon]

Ivory is not illegal to sell within the united states,It takes approx 8oz of Ivory to turn a handle the size of the largest simpson.
The currant W'sale price of Ivory is $65.00/lb.

depends on what Ivory we are talking about..

*African Elephant On the C.I.T.E.S. Endangered Species List. Importing, buying, and selling of African elephant ivory is not allowed internationally. It cannot be imported into or exported out of the U.S. or practically any other country of the world. It is legal to own, buy, sell or ship within the United States and there are no permits or registration requirements (those were required for importation into the U.S.).

The raw elephant ivory we are selling now is all old "estate" ivory which was legally imported years ago.

* Asian Elephant On the U.S. & C.I.T.E.S. Endangered Species List. Importing, buying, and selling of Asian elephant ivory is not allowed internationally or interstate within the U. S.

[doug1066]

Back to the OP's question. What makes a brush worth $675.00? It is a one off, custom brush using the finest materials available in terms of badger hair and it is from one of the most respected and recognized makers of shaving brushes on the planet. I would like you to contact Patek Phillippe and have them quote you a price on a one off, custom watch, cased in platinum and compare the price of that watch to that Plisson brush. It is all about exclusivity and what the market will bear.

[Doc4]

Anytime there's a "why is *that* so darned expensive?" thread, the guy asking is one of two people. Either he's a genuinely-interested fellow who's probably new to the field and wants to understand, or he's "making a point" (and likely to mention that his $50 Timex keeps the same time than a $50,000 Rolex, and so forth.)

The first guy is saying "please explain", and the second guy is saying "dude, that's crazy."

Both discussions have merit, but ... they are two different discussions. If we don't remember that, we risk talking at cross purposes a lot, which take discussions and turn them into debates which devolve into arguments ... which none of us want, really.

****

To the OP, Plisson is an expensive maker of hand-made shaving brushes; basically the pinacle of shaving brush makers. "High mountain white" is a rare and expensive grade/type of badger hair that costs a lot more than other badger hair; it comes from European badgers that live high in the mountains, rather than from common badgers in China. The larger a brush is, the more you pay ... a lot more badger hair and other materials go into the process, and perhaps more time is needed to hand-make the knot of badger hair. You pay more ... often a lot more ... for something that is made "custom", rather than merely part of the regular assembly line. All those factors can add up. :crying:

[Doc4]

Guys, I would recommend deleting any posts you may have made in DrP's BST thread... this thread is the place to get answers without detracting from the sale.


Good call Francesco...agree with this whole heartedly. Wish Peter the best of luck with his sale. I'll go and the BST thread...

Edit: I cleaned out any irrelevant posts I had made. I suggest we all do the same gentlemen.

Very good point.

We've always welcomed discussions and member comments about BST sale prices ... but ...

Comments in the BST about sale priced are to be only about "fair market value" ... so if someone is selling a puck of Tabac for $30 it's fair game to point out that a new puck can be had from any number of sellers for oh $10-15.

[mftoms59]

This is inspired by the sale of the brush that is marked at $675, what is it that makes a brush this valuable please?, are the knots the key thing OR handles, asssembly, machine made handmade, Name??/

This is not a dig at the one for sale by no means , but merely a question about the value of any brush, and how to know what to look for, and what price goes with that brush.

I believe that is the Silver-Tip French Alps Sasquatch Hair :ohmy: :001_wub: :w00t:

[Go West Young Man]

Functionally, after you cross more or less the $100 line there's no difference in brushes. After that point, you're paying for craftsmanship, style and cachet.

[KM-instructor]

Thank you gentlemen for the replies. I must clarify that my original post was NOT in no shape a bashing on any brush price whether it be a $10 or a 2k one, it was a genuine post to "PLEASE educate me on brush prices" I now understand a little more than i did before my question , so Thank you for taking the time for your explanations, I appreciate it.
I now look at the badger in a whole new light.

[Angry__Panda]

Sorry I should have clarified my statement about the illegal ivory thing. I also didn't know you could get it in "bulk" to actually make brushes from. I thought that you could sell old ivory that had been around for a while but that it was already "used" for something, my bad.

Even still, just imagine the prestige feeling using that ivory brush heh. Also cool to dream about right ;) .

[Bestarrkin]

Sorry I should have clarified my statement about the illegal ivory thing. I also didn't know you could get it in "bulk" to actually make brushes from. I thought that you could sell old ivory that had been around for a while but that it was already "used" for something, my bad.

Even still, just imagine the prestige feeling using that ivory brush heh. Also cool to dream about right ;) .

There are old billiard balls too as ivory supplies.

[global_dev]

Functionally, after you cross more or less the $100 line there's no difference in brushes. After that point, you're paying for craftsmanship, style and cachet.

totally disagree with this, but not targeting chris. functionally there is no difference in a $3 CVS brush and all others. they all lather. i do believe that knots and handles truly differ... are they worth it... that's a personal issue... for example, when you see the AdP brush and stand in person vs a normal market brush, you can feel and see a difference and how much you want to pay is subjective.. if a piece of art i can use makes me happy and i can enjoy it, it's worth it.

eastomjac (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/member.php/41037-eastomjac)'s brushes don't really do anything for me.. the luxury of the plisson or similar is quite nice...

you might say a fool and his money are soon parted or a sucker is born every minute, but i don't think that's the case..

everyone has their own areas that they go cheap, frugal, or excessive in.

[Go West Young Man]

totally disagree with this, but not targeting chris. functionally there is no difference in a $3 CVS brush and all others. they all lather. i

Point taken, and I agree completely with you. I was thinking more along the lines that cost and value move together in a straight line up until more or less $100 - higher quality bristles, more care taken in making the knot, better construction, less likely to shed, etc.

[Thebigspendur]

Most of the Ivory you see out there is actually mammoth tusk which is plentiful and relatively inexpensive.

[Doc4]

Functionally, after you cross more or less the $100 line there's no difference in brushes. After that point, you're paying for craftsmanship, style and cachet.

Yes, totally ... and no, absolutely not.

:ohmy:

There are "diminishing returns" as you increase how much you are willing to spend. I'll agree that you can get a pretty super brush at about $100, and there's a lot more difference between a $50 brush and a $100 brush than there is between a $100 and a $150 brush.

(Taken in $50 increments, each new $50 yields less "wow" than the last one did. Is there any difference between a $500 brush and a $550 one?)

[AABCDS]

Most of the Ivory you see out there is actually mammoth tusk which is plentiful and relatively inexpensive.

+1. I see them walking around my backyard all the time.

http://www.doctorramey.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Wooly-Mammoth1-300x217.jpg

[spindlecone]

Most of the Ivory you see out there is actually mammoth tusk which is plentiful and relatively inexpensive.
Mammoth is inexpensive????? Go to the Tucson gem show this year an let it be known that your in the market for Inexpensive mammoth,will be a plus if you speak Russian.:001_tt2:

[wilsonent]

I was also under the impression that Ivory was illegal to buy, unless it was old ivory from before the endangered species laws were in effect. Since we ate all the mammoths in Kentucky, does anyone know if Walrus ivory makes good brushes. The walrus certainly has an impressive set of whiskers. Oh never mind, the walrus was Paul.


Jeff

[spindlecone]

can make anything out of walrus,the eskimos did.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/spindlecone/Wally002.jpg

[lfb]

Plisson has made plexi-handled brushes for many years. They are currently offered in seven sizes and two grades of badger, grey or European white. A EW in size 20 is listed on the Plisson website at about 540 Euros, for delivery in the EC, or 450 Euros, with tax deducted for delivery outside the EC.

Similar brushes with HMW badger were sometimes available as well. For instance, in 2007/2008 one could order a plexi-handled HMW in size 20 directly on the Plisson website at prices about 10% less than what they are asking for the EW version today. These were not one-of-a kind brushes and I wouldn't characterize them as custom-made, but they were available for a limited time only, and produced only on demand and probably in very small numbers. The brush currently for sale on the B/S/T forum appears to be one of these.

Plexi Plissons in size 20, and also 18, are very large, luxurious brushes that work extremely well. One can of course easily get brushes with knots of 30-32mm or more, but overall brush size is determined by the combination of knot size and loft (and knot construction). How many companies produce brushes with lofts of 70mm or more? The large Plissons are in a league of their own, both in quality and in price.

-Leo

[bridger berdel]

I'm a woodworker and a compulsive tinkerer, not to mention a complete cheapskate. so of course I want to make my own. and of course I want to buy a high quality knot for as cheap as I can.


so what is the cheapest way to buy a quality knot?

[alpster]

Maybe a perspective from someone who has built a "High quality" brush (see picture below). I started with a black walnut blank that I paid about $20 for. I bought a 21mm Best Badger knot for $25. My glue & finish costs for a single brush is about $10. Now here is where the difference lies. about 2 hours turning sanding & buffing at say $50/hour. another 2 hours of preparing, mixing and applying several coats of finish. Box it up and ship it insured to California $15. $70 materials & shipping plus $200 labor. $270 for a shaving brush is not unreasonable from my perspective. I don't sell brushes because I can't make one that meets my standards that most folks would find thrifty. JMHO

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j42/alpster/Shaving%20Pics/DSC_0066_zps6244f087.jpg

Ronnie

[Mdkmdk]

What's more odd to me is that you would go through the effort to get a custom made brush made AND pay $700+ AND never use it.... who does that?!