A guy shoots himself on youtube

[aceinyerface]

Some guy shoots himself- He starts cussing, so NSFW, turn the sound off/down as needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

I firmly believe that one needs to learn from the mistakes of others. The lessons here are numerous.

1) Is is a delusion for people to state that a belt holster keeps the muzzle from pointing at yourself. We'd be watching a video about goober shooting the ground instead of his leg, if it were the truth.

2) You don't need to be fast, you need to be smart. Fast on the draw, fast on the trigger, fast to the hospital. Just watched "Defensive Handgun" by Clint Smith again. He says he has never seen a timer in a gunfight. He ain't much of a "fast" fan.

3) I actually heard a guy say on "Gun Stories" on tv, that a .45 acp can hit you in the pinky, spin you around and knock you on the floor. That sure didn't happen to goober. Looks to me like he shot himself and walked off to tend his business. I'd imagine he could have kept fighting if he needed to. So much for magic calibers.

4) It is never just one firearms safety rule that gets ignored when bad things happen. He probably never realized that the muzzle pointed at his leg. Then, he put his finger on the trigger when he wasn't on target. EVERYONE who wears that belt holster points the muzzle at themselves, but that alone isn't quite enough to screw the pooch.

5) Hi end 1911, huh? That's the one with the light crisp trigger, innit? Funny how touchy that trigger is. Even breaking the 2 safety rules, I wonder if a double action would have popped off a round that quick.

6) As a long time martial arts guy, that drill is goofy. It is so fantastical in it's premise that I could give a dozen different options that would need to be "what if-ed" into absurdity before getting to this last ditch option. Even a minimally trained guy could have stepped to the right and started sticking his fingers in the bad guy's eyes while slowly pulling the firearm safely and bringing it to bear. (letting a bad guy get all the way on top of you is not the time to START some kind of defense) Once again, you don't need to be fast, you need to be smart. I could go on and on about this.

I'm sure there are more lessons to take from this.

[DaveNJ74]

Was he really going to shoot that target from 5 inches away from it?? This guy probably has NO training whatsoever. I have had firearms training and do not consider myself an expert but I remember the first thing they taught us... never draw with the finger on the trigger. It seems he did that and was very nervous when he drew out of the holster and he probably anticipates the shot every time making him a nervous wreck when he shoots.
We have to remember just because you wear a camo hunting hat and live in the woods that it doesnt make you an expert in firearms.

[Greyfox]

As Ron White says, " You just can't cure stupid."

[BrianL]

Make sure you have the sound turned down NSFW.
At least he only shot himself and not someone else.

[aceinyerface]

Make sure you have the sound turned down NSFW.
At least he only shot himself and not someone else.

Didn't think about that, I added a warning.

[ackvil]

Was he really going to shoot that target from 5 inches away from it?? This guy probably has NO training whatsoever. I have had firearms training and do not consider myself an expert but I remember the first thing they taught us... never draw with the finger on the trigger. It seems he did that and was very nervous when he drew out of the holster and he probably anticipates the shot every time making him a nervous wreck when he shoots.
We have to remember just because you wear a camo hunting hat and live in the woods that it doesnt make you an expert in firearms.

I have taken a few firearm training courses and as said above the first rule was NEVER draw with your finger on the trigger. This guy either had little training or was dumb. The fact that it never happened before is not relevant.

[Trumanj]

Wow, love the fact that he then tries to teach us. I'm pretty sure that in shooting yourself you lose all credibility.

I will say I am a fan of the 1911. Browning is the greatest gunsmith ever. Plus too many people have glocks, they just don't have any personality to them. They are like the Mach 3's of the gun community :)

[aceinyerface]

Wow, love the fact that he then tries to teach us. I'm pretty sure that in shooting yourself you lose all credibility.

I will say I am a fan of the 1911. Browning is the greatest gunsmith ever. Plus too many people have glocks, they just don't have any personality to them. They are like the Mach 3's of the gun community :)

I razz 1911 guys a little, especially when they get snooty (and they often do). But, I like 1911's, it was the first firearm I ever purchased on my own, and they meet the acceptability threshold for me. I prefer other things, but in all honesty, one can defend themselves just fine with a 1911. It is all preference after a certain point.

[AZShaver]

He spoke of practicing with a Glock, which doesn't even have a thumb or grip safety. Sounds stupid.

[JoshuaNY]

I would say the most important thing we can take away is:
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.

I dont think he intended to fire at his leg, so why was his finger on the trigger.

I agree with the OP. SMART will out play fast any day of the week.

And who shoots at a dude that close? When someone is that close the time for drawing and shooting is over.

[justinp]

Wow, love the fact that he then tries to teach us. I'm pretty sure that in shooting yourself you lose all credibility.

I will say I am a fan of the 1911. Browning is the greatest gunsmith ever. Plus too many people have glocks, they just don't have any personality to them. They are like the Mach 3's of the gun community :)

Heh. At least they don't require a valet and a wet nurse to go bang when you pull the trigger :001_tt2:

[aceinyerface]

And who shoots at a dude that close? When someone is that close the time for drawing and shooting is over.

It's those shooting schools teaching that stuff. That is "professional" training.

What I see is Maslow's Hammer at work. "It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."

If they taught some integrated self defense concepts along with the firearm, that retention drill loses it's logic.

Aikido teaches to move your center off the line of attack, if only even a little. The gun fighter schools are trying to be all things to all people and in this case, it isn't appropriate. Or, they only have a hammer and want to nail everything.

[DaveNJ74]

I have taken a few firearm training courses and as said above the first rule was NEVER draw with your finger on the trigger. This guy either had little training or was dumb. The fact that it never happened before is not relevant.
I would go with both.. he had little training and was (is) dumb... You have to love Youtube, its brings the dumbest people to light.

[ackvil]

Wow, love the fact that he then tries to teach us. I'm pretty sure that in shooting yourself you lose all credibility.

I will say I am a fan of the 1911. Browning is the greatest gunsmith ever. Plus too many people have glocks, they just don't have any personality to them. They are like the Mach 3's of the gun community :)

No, Glocks are like SE razors - not Mach 3s. They are simple to use, uncomplicated, have no snob appeal, and work. In contrast many of the 1911s have the snob appeal of a Pils. A nice gun if you like something that is heavy, has limited ammo capacity, jams more, is more expensive, and must be cleaned after every shooting. :a6:
I have four Glocks and one 1911 handgun and two S&W revolvers and I rate the Glocks far above the others.

[malocchio]

guys like this are a threat to the youth of america..he should be put into cryogenic long term storage...

[Topgumby]

What worries me isn't the broken rules, the attitude that allows for quick draw practice at a target a few inches away, or even the possibility that he severely hurt himself....

What worries me is that you could roll up a ball of ignorant this big and then think it's a good idea to post it on YouTube...:lol:

[aceinyerface]

guys like this are a threat to the youth of america..he should be put into cryogenic long term storage...

His real threat is in being an example for gun grabbers to point to and say "Look at how unsafe those things are... they cannot be handled safely... they should be banned completely".

He seems a bit "slow" or maybe even mildly "special needs", but the friggin guy is a threat to my 2nd amendment rights with his foolishness.

[life2short1971]

I always say ignorance should be painful. Apparently it is. BUT I give the guy credit for Manning up and showing others his mistake. He could potentially save another person from a loss of life injury from his stupidity being caught on camera. If he hadn't had a cell phone and caught a major artery he could have bled out.

[malocchio]

reading all these good thoughts about this guy brought up the memory of dick "I only had one beer" cheney,the time he 12 gauged his corporate lawyer in the face.....a week later the lawyer gets out of the hospital and at the press conference the poor guy VERY nervously apologizes to cheney for getting in his way !!!!.. hard to beat good stories like these...

[Legion]

I always say ignorance should be painful. Apparently it is. BUT I give the guy credit for Manning up and showing others his mistake. He could potentially save another person from a loss of life injury from his stupidity being caught on camera. If he hadn't had a cell phone and caught a major artery he could have bled out.

+1

I give him no points for being a goof, but he gets some back for being brave enough to take all the laughing at his expense so someone else might avoid the same mistake.

Remember kids, nobody likes a premature discharge. Umm...

He's bloody lucky he still has a kneecap.

[life2short1971]

+1


Remember kids, nobody likes a premature discharge. Umm...


That made me spit coffee all over my monitor:lol:

[aceinyerface]

Whooo! I could have called that he was going to shoot someone!

http://www.youtube.com/user/derekgrebner87#p/u/15/7s056MWiJjg

[aceinyerface]

That made me spit coffee all over my monitor:lol:

An Aussie nearly got me on another thread. Humor runs rampant on the board tonight!

[joshgambit]

Was it just me, or did it seem like he was blaming the holster? Even after he said "I don't blame the holster..." he went on to say how the holster basically turned the safety off, and that he needed to press his index finger on it, which slipped and got the trigger.

Either way, it goes to show you - KNOW YOUR EQUIPMENT! And that's not just with firearms.

[aceinyerface]

Yeah, he never did realize "I shot myself because I am a jackass, and I have been one for the last 700 videos", which means he will go back to jackassing and probably shoot himself or someone else again.

Anyone else bother to watch any of his other videos, like him spin cocking a lever action?

http://www.youtube.com/user/derekgrebner87#p/u/15/7s056MWiJjg

[ackvil]

Yeah, he never did realize "I shot myself because I am a jackass, and I have been one for the last 700 videos", which means he will go back to jackassing and probably shoot himself or someone else again.

Anyone else bother to watch any of his other videos, like him spin cocking a lever action?

http://www.youtube.com/user/derekgrebner87#p/u/15/7s056MWiJjg

Wow, it's a miracle he didn't kill himself. You hit the nail on the head: he is a jackass.

[aceinyerface]

Wow, it's a miracle he didn't kill himself. You hit the nail on the head: he is a jackass.

Well, there is a whole subculture of jokers who are practicing exactly like him. The only saving grace is they haven't got as sloppy... yet.

In the "affected faux official police report cadence and dialect", I present the words of ol' Tex- "I have done that drawstroke 1000's of times with no problem."

[KM-instructor]

IDIOT!! pure and simple, Pros don't make those type of mistakes.

[Ron991]

This guy is very lucky he didn't hit an artery. To see yourself bleed is one thing, but to see blood squirtting from your body is another thing. It does not take long to go into shock. If you are alone, and that happens you will bleed out in short order, and at that point about the only thing left to do is tag, and bag.

[ouch]

If it had hit six inches higher and three inches to the left, we would have been spared future generations of "How to safely handle a phaser" videos.

At least he took it like a man, and didn't bitch and moan about it.

[TankCommander1554]

After reading all of the posts, we need to examine a few things about this video.

1. This guy is trained, he received training with a highly rated firearms instructor. I have had the same training course that this guy took and it was certainly a safe and quality course.

2. The holster this guy was using, a Blackhawk Serpa, is known for this exact issue. Drawing a weapon and pushing a release button with your trigger finger is unsafe in my opinion and that's why I don't shoot from Blackhawk Holsters.

3. Although he did shoot himself, he reacted well considering the situation. I am not saying that he wasn't dumb or didn't make mistakes, but he applied pressure immediately to the wound and moved to seek more medical aid. That is more then I can say for other people who have been shot.

4. Whether you like the guy or not, whether you think he is stupid or not; it's a learning experience for all and he does get a few points for swallowing his pride and offering us this lesson.

5. Yes, this technique of shooting is completely valid. It is meant to simulate being in a confrontation with an attacker that either is grabbing your head, trying to hit your head with something, or being confronted with a lock/hold. Most gunfights happen close in and this situation is possible. Yes there are many options that one can take, but using a firearm is one of those techniques and should be practiced if you are going to keep that option in your kit bag.

6. Technique was shaky on this video and speed kills. He got cocky with his skills and paid the price.

7. For all the talk about 1911s, I say whatever you want to shoot is fine as long as it works and you can shoot it safely and accurately. I shoot a Glock 19 - it works, it's not sexy, sleek, or anything else. Simply put, my Glock is a tool and I carry instead of a 1911 because I know it will work.

Hope the guy gets well soon.

[plpenn]

That was great! What a tool!!!!

[ackvil]

After reading all of the posts, we need to examine a few things about this video.

1. This guy is trained, he received training with a highly rated firearms instructor. I have had the same training course that this guy took and it was certainly a safe and quality course.

2. The holster this guy was using, a Blackhawk Serpa, is known for this exact issue. Drawing a weapon and pushing a release button with your trigger finger is unsafe in my opinion and that's why I don't shoot from Blackhawk Holsters.

3. Although he did shoot himself, he reacted well considering the situation. I am not saying that he wasn't dumb or didn't make mistakes, but he applied pressure immediately to the wound and moved to seek more medical aid. That is more then I can say for other people who have been shot.

4. Whether you like the guy or not, whether you think he is stupid or not; it's a learning experience for all and he does get a few points for swallowing his pride and offering us this lesson.

5. Yes, this technique of shooting is completely valid. It is meant to simulate being in a confrontation with an attacker that either is grabbing your head, trying to hit your head with something, or being confronted with a lock/hold. Most gunfights happen close in and this situation is possible. Yes there are many options that one can take, but using a firearm is one of those techniques and should be practiced if you are going to keep that option in your kit bag.

6. Technique was shaky on this video and speed kills. He got cocky with his skills and paid the price.

7. For all the talk about 1911s, I say whatever you want to shoot is fine as long as it works and you can shoot it safely and accurately. I shoot a Glock 19 - it works, it's not sexy, sleek, or anything else. Simply put, my Glock is a tool and I carry instead of a 1911 because I know it will work.

Hope the guy gets well soon.o

A few questions, if I may.

1. What course did he take? I have taken a number of courses on firearms and in every instance I have been instructed to leave my finger on the trigger guard and not the trigger when drawing the gun from the holster. Like you I like Glocks but I would be concerned about drawing a Glock from a holster with my finger on the trigger since the Glock does not have a safety.

2. Did you see the second video that aceinyerface posted? (The video in which he is twirling a lever rifle). That is one that really got to me.

As for your comments on the Glock, I could not agree more. I have shot hundreds of rounds in each Glock that I own and never have had a malfunction. Plus, the pistol you know is the one to use.

[RyanR]

One of the big rules he broke, is never practice drawing from a new holster/pistol combination with a loaded pistol. He should have had an empty pistol or one with blanks that you can buy from Cheaper Than Dirt.

[mandoman]

what a dumb a$$

[TankCommander1554]

o

A few questions, if I may.

1. What course did he take? I have taken a number of courses on firearms and in every instance I have been instructed to leave my finger on the trigger guard and not the trigger when drawing the gun from the holster. Like you I like Glocks but I would be concerned about drawing a Glock from a holster with my finger on the trigger since the Glock does not have a safety.

2. Did you see the second video that aceinyerface posted? (The video in which he is twirling a lever rifle). That is one that really got to me.

As for your comments on the Glock, I could not agree more. I have shot hundreds of rounds in each Glock that I own and never have had a malfunction. Plus, the pistol you know is the one to use.


Be happy to answer your questions...

1. He attended Tactical Response Fighting Pistol. I took the same course and he was never instructed to draw with his finger on the trigger. We were always taught to have your finger as far up and away from the trigger as possible until indexed on target. I agree with you, he should have never practiced on a holster (especially not that type of holster) for the first time with a loaded gun. Using those types of holsters requires practice.

2. The second video is disturbing to say the least. I have seen this guy's videos before and I think he is kind of a dumb a**, but still a valuable resource for us. I wish he understood that a lot of people think he is dumb a**, but I just felt like the guy got a little bit too much crap. I don't think one retard who shot himself is a metric to judge any piece of gear, technique, or training system.

Shoot often, shoot safe!

[rajagra]

I'm not a gun user, but I think some of you are missing some of the points he made. The holster had a THUMB release catch that was in the same position as the safety on that gun. That's a design flaw, or at least a dreadful choice of kit combination (which he should have noticed earlier!) He did not place his finger on the trigger, he (went to) put it on the trigger guard. But because the gun was still locked into the holster when he pulled back, the gun stayed where it was, his index finger slid off the trigger guard and sprang back onto the trigger, and bang!

It seems the problem with this gun/holster type of combo was already known. We now have a documented case of the problem leading to an incident. He may be a dumb showboater, but others may learn from his mistake.

Edit> On watching again he may have changed to a different holster as well as different gun, so maybe I was missing something!

[aceinyerface]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXk0VSjlcf8&feature=related

The hits just keep on coming.

Zero to Hero, baby!

[aceinyerface]

I like some of the things taught at the various gun schools-

Learning how to clear a malfunction or jam, well, that is very prudent.

Learning some of the shooting methods and targeting, double taps, mozambique, pelvic shots and the like.

I think the jackassery starts when they start trying to play a grown up version of GI Joe.
What do I mean-
The civilians wearing paramilitary gear, everything "tacticool"ed out in camo, kydex, nylon web straps, tactical holsters, tactical rails, tactical lights, tactical lasers, tactical clothes, tactical knife, tactical golf club covers, etc... that all is silly and the mentality that tells one that they need all that leads down the road and drops them on the doorstep of jackassery, but not quite there yet.

When they take the next step into the fast draw, run and gun, "gotta practice fighting with my gun", THAT is jackassery.

I think they are selling a fantasy. We are in 2 wars right now, if someone wanted to be a soldier... we got what you need, join the military and fight for freedom. If you are not in the military(or SWAT) and are carrying on like that, thats jackass.

Now, if you tell Tex that "X is faster, but you should go slow right now" Tex is gonna want to go faster at some point. Ol' Tex was set up for failure and he failed, now that is some good training right there.

That drill, I suppose, is intended to save your life and it ended up almost taking his life. I wonder how many times Tex had a bad guy on him like that and how many times he shot his self. Seems like the training is more dangerous than what they are trying to protect themselves from. If one were fighting for freedom, the risky training would be justified, without that justification it is simply stupid.

I'm just throwing it out there that they should skip that drill and teach how to treat gunshots to the leg.

[rajagra]

Given the entry and exit points, it must have been fun cleaning the wound. I bet they only did the visible bits. Can't imagine they'd run a pipe cleaner through the hole! :lol:

[TankCommander1554]

I'm not a gun user, but I think some of you are missing some of the points he made. The holster had a THUMB release catch that was in the same position as the safety on that gun. That's a design flaw, or at least a dreadful choice of kit combination (which he should have noticed earlier!) He did not place his finger on the trigger, he (went to) put it on the trigger guard. But because the gun was still locked into the holster when he pulled back, the gun stayed where it was, his index finger slid off the trigger guard and sprang back onto the trigger, and bang!

It seems the problem with this gun/holster type of combo was already known. We now have a documented case of the problem leading to an incident. He may be a dumb showboater, but others may learn from his mistake.

These types of Holsters are most certainly part of the problem in this case. Most instructors don't even allow these types of holsters for this very reason.

[Doc4]

The civilians wearing paramilitary gear, everything "tacticool"ed out in camo, kydex, nylon web straps, tactical holsters, tactical rails, tactical lights, tactical lasers, tactical clothes, tactical knife, tactical golf club covers, etc... that all is silly and the mentality that tells one that they need all that leads down the road and drops them on the doorstep of tactical jackassery, but not quite there yet. ftfy

I think they are selling a fantasy. We are in 2 wars right now, if someone wanted to be a soldier... we got what you need, join the military and fight for freedom. [edit ... they would join up, but it's not "tactical" enough]

That drill, I suppose, is intended to save your life and it ended up almost taking his life. I wonder how many times Tex had a bad guy on him like that and how many times he shot his self. Seems like the training is more dangerous than what they are trying to protect themselves from. If one were fighting for freedom, the risky training would be justified, without that justification it is simply stupid.



Tex's ability to fend off or run from his attacker after he's shot himself in the leg ... um ... :001_unsur

[TankCommander1554]

I like some of the things taught at the various gun schools-

Learning how to clear a malfunction or jam, well, that is very prudent.

Learning some of the shooting methods and targeting, double taps, mozambique, pelvic shots and the like.

I think the jackassery starts when they start trying to play a grown up version of GI Joe.
What do I mean-
The civilians wearing paramilitary gear, everything "tacticool"ed out in camo, kydex, nylon web straps, tactical holsters, tactical rails, tactical lights, tactical lasers, tactical clothes, tactical knife, tactical golf club covers, etc... that all is silly and the mentality that tells one that they need all that leads down the road and drops them on the doorstep of jackassery, but not quite there yet.

When they take the next step into the fast draw, run and gun, "gotta practice fighting with my gun", THAT is jackassery.

I think they are selling a fantasy. We are in 2 wars right now, if someone wanted to be a soldier... we got what you need, join the military and fight for freedom. If you are not in the military(or SWAT) and are carrying on like that, thats jackass.

Now, if you tell Tex that "X is faster, but you should go slow right now" Tex is gonna want to go faster at some point. Ol' Tex was set up for failure and he failed, now that is some good training right there.

That drill, I suppose, is intended to save your life and it ended up almost taking his life. I wonder how many times Tex had a bad guy on him like that and how many times he shot his self. Seems like the training is more dangerous than what they are trying to protect themselves from. If one were fighting for freedom, the risky training would be justified, without that justification it is simply stupid.

I'm just throwing it out there that they should skip that drill and teach how to treat gunshots to the leg.

Okay...as someone who is both one of those citizens and an active duty soldier I will say that the training courses offered at some schools are sub-standard. Tactical Response is not a sub-standard school. It is a very professional group of individuals who are not weekend warriors. All of them are former law enforcement, medics, soldiers, or contractors.

Tactical Response does offer a wide array of courses including High Risk Civilian Contractor. These courses are obviously not designed for ordinary citizens. They are designed for citizens who will be working overseas as Private Military Contractors. I have to disagree tht these folks don't need the "Tacticool" or "GI Joe" training as you call it. With that said, Tactical Response is a business and if civilians want to pay their money and take the course, that is a decision they make and they accept the risks of practicing those skills. If you look at all the courses offered by Tactical Response, they offer courses in Rifle Fighting, Pistol Fighting, Shotgun Fighting, Immediate Medical Aid, Long Range Marksmanship, and Survival. All of those courses are designed for private citizens, law enforcement, and military. If you have chosen to carry a gun or own a gun for protection as a private citizen, it is logical that training on the use of that weapon is essential. Having been to Fighting Pistol, this course is designed to take shooters with limited skill and give them the basic knowledge to survive a gunfight, it is not to make them into experts by any means. With all due respect, to say that it is "Jacka**ery" is harsh. If private citizens want to get into their hobby and have "Tacticool" gear while they train or while they enjoy their hobby, then so be it.

As for that drill, it is a necessary drill in my opinion for a gunfight. The course is performed in a very safe manner and everyone who trains (not just shoots, but trains) knows that weapons are dangerous and every drill must be respected. It is not the drill that caused this error; it was caused by poor holster choice, bad trigger finger discipline, and speed. Also, before you judge the course, you should know that each day of training starts with a safety briefing and a first aid review. Each course has medical personnel on site. The second day has a detailed medical portion of the course taught in the classroom (dealing with gunshots and blood loss). Finally, students are strongly encouraged to seek out more medical training after the course from Tactical Response or another professional medical course.

[Mako72]

TankCommand1554 you have some good points. We have been discussing this on another forum and the biggest problem was switching holsters. Earlier he had been using the 5.11 with the thumb release which also added taking of the thumb safety simultainiously and then switched to the BH Serpa which you have to push with your trigger finger. The act of practicing these two reflexive actions in the same day added to using both muscle memories together and resulted in the ND.

I would add one other thing. While some may not like the close contact speed rock drill(he was a little close, should be about arm length IMO) one of the largest US LE Agencies uses it, California Highway Patrol. I know because their shorter officers used to richocet rounds off our range ceiling every month! It definitely has its need but must be practiced safely.

Jay

[aceinyerface]

LOL I can't help but remember the Andy Griffith Show! They gave Barney one round and made him keep it in his shirt pocket, because he was a danger to himself and everyone around him.

[rajagra]

His Texan drawl is rather strong. Can someone confirm he says "I just <bleeping> shot myself!" ?

[aceinyerface]

Civilian contractor? That sounds like the fellow who cuts my grass. Let's. Be clear and speak plain, you mean guys who are not in the military but get paid to fight. They used to call those "mercenaries".

So, it is merc school. But, anyone with the $1000 for the class can attend. I think I am following you correctly so far.

And some dummy went to practice what he learned at merc school and shot himself in the leg? I think that is accurate, right?

But, in YOUR opinion, there ain't no jackassing going on. 10-4


Okay...as someone who is both one of those citizens and an active duty soldier I will say that the training courses offered at some schools are sub-standard. Tactical Response is not a sub-standard school. It is a very professional group of individuals who are not weekend warriors. All of them are former law enforcement, medics, soldiers, or contractors.

Tactical Response does offer a wide array of courses including High Risk Civilian Contractor. These courses are obviously not designed for ordinary citizens. They are designed for citizens who will be working overseas as Private Military Contractors. I have to disagree tht these folks don't need the "Tacticool" or "GI Joe" training as you call it. With that said, Tactical Response is a business and if civilians want to pay their money and take the course, that is a decision they make and they accept the risks of practicing those skills. If you look at all the courses offered by Tactical Response, they offer courses in Rifle Fighting, Pistol Fighting, Shotgun Fighting, Immediate Medical Aid, Long Range Marksmanship, and Survival. All of those courses are designed for private citizens, law enforcement, and military. If you have chosen to carry a gun or own a gun for protection as a private citizen, it is logical that training on the use of that weapon is essential. Having been to Fighting Pistol, this course is designed to take shooters with limited skill and give them the basic knowledge to survive a gunfight, it is not to make them into experts by any means. With all due respect, to say that it is "Jacka**ery" is harsh. If private citizens want to get into their hobby and have "Tacticool" gear while they train or while they enjoy their hobby, then so be it.

As for that drill, it is a necessary drill in my opinion for a gunfight. The course is performed in a very safe manner and everyone who trains (not just shoots, but trains) knows that weapons are dangerous and every drill must be respected. It is not the drill that caused this error; it was caused by poor holster choice, bad trigger finger discipline, and speed. Also, before you judge the course, you should know that each day of training starts with a safety briefing and a first aid review. Each course has medical personnel on site. The second day has a detailed medical portion of the course taught in the classroom (dealing with gunshots and blood loss). Finally, students are strongly encouraged to seek out more medical training after the course from Tactical Response or another professional medical course.

[Mako72]

His Texan drawl is rather strong. Can someone confirm he says "I just <bleeping> shot myself!" ?

Since I speak some drawlese I can confirm that is what he said, followed closely by "Son of a Bleep". He did have the presence of mind to safe his pistol and place it in the ground so points for that. Plus it does perfectly illustrate why you only shoot for center mass as a .45 hardball to the leg did pretty minimal damage for an in and out.

Jay

[whavens]

The bullet only hit soft tissue. Nothing to do but go in and out. Had it hit bone, there would definitely been much more than minimal damage.

Since I speak some drawlese I can confirm that is what he said, followed closely by "Son of a Bleep". He did have the presence of mind to safe his pistol and place it in the ground so points for that. Plus it does perfectly illustrate why you only shoot for center mass as a .45 hardball to the leg did pretty minimal damage for an in and out.

Jay

[Mako72]

The bullet only hit soft tissue. Nothing to do but go in and out. Had it hit bone, there would definitely been much more than minimal damage.

Thats actually my point. Except for center mass were you have overlapping ribs, sternum, etc it seems the chances of hitting a bone are a lot less. If it had hit bone it certainly would have been worse, the first time I watched that video I actually thought he got himself in the foot as well and that I figured was going to be mangled. But I have still known a lot of yahoos that think if you shoot someone in the leg they will just go down and that will stop them.

Jay

[DaveNJ74]

That was great! What a tool!!!!

+1 on the tool... I think he just got excited because of the camera.

[TankCommander1554]

Civilian contractor? That sounds like the fellow who cuts my grass. Let's. Be clear and speak plain, you mean guys who are not in the military but get paid to fight. They used to call those "mercenaries".

So, it is merc school. But, anyone with the $1000 for the class can attend. I think I am following you correctly so far.

And some dummy went to practice what he learned at merc school and shot himself in the leg? I think that is accurate, right?

But, in YOUR opinion, there ain't no jackassing going on. 10-4

Yes, if you want to get right down to it - today's contractors are indeed mercenaries. The school on the whole is not a "merc school", it happens to have a set of classes dedicated to that market. Yes, anyone who has the money can attend one of those courses. Tex was not practicing any skills from those "merc" courses - he was practicing a skill from Fighting Pistol, which again is designed for anyone. I think we can both agree he made some serious mistakes, but don't jump all over the school because one person executed a high risk drill incorrectly.

Mako - I tend to agree, he was a little close. Glad to see that CHP is also taught this technique. It certainly has some practical application in a close in fight.

[Kwaka_Chris]

I don't want to watch this video, but from the comments regarding lack of training, sounds like a distinct possibility. Now I've done plenty of close quarters live fire training, and even quick from the holster and quick to the fire, shooting from the hip, I've never once come into any troubles close to this.

Now this is probably due to the design on the holster having protection near the trigger, but probably also from a decent amount of respect where you really want to respect a machine that is capable of ending someones existence, don't have that finger within that trigger area until its time! especially so you don't shoot yourself.

Succinct version; I believe in natural selection.

edit; regarding the training, I am used to performing drills, using safe procedures, ie if it was to learn this drill, practicing ENDLESSLY with a dummy pistol (most common models should have them, ie no firing pins, coloured to mark that etc). Repetitive training with a safe medium is the only way to take the initial steps, leaving that live round training until it is second nature.

[fccexpert]

A good example of why most need to avoid Serpa holsters

[LittleLebowski]

Tactical Response is not one of the top instructors at all. I would avoid them. Yeager's record as a contractor isn't exactly stellar nor long.

[LittleLebowski]

Tex needs to stop "training" himself and seek quality instruction.

[M80]

This seems like a good place to leave this classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY

[TankCommander1554]

Tactical Response is not one of the top instructors at all. I would avoid them. Yeager's record as a contractor isn't exactly stellar nor long.

We'll just go ahead and say that is your opinion and mine is different. There are a lot of people who dislike James Yeager for whatever reason. I think he is a stand up guy and provides very high quality training.

Rather then basing opinions on James and his company on two or three people on this forum, people can go to getoffthex.com and read the reviews for themselves.

[Don Barbiere]

This is how it is done, watch and learn Tex:)

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac281/DonBarbiere/GIF/1236166573_steven_seagal_shooting_kids.gif

[Psychofish]

6) As a long time martial arts guy, that drill is goofy. It is so fantastical in it's premise that I could give a dozen different options that would need to be "what if-ed" into absurdity before getting to this last ditch option. Even a minimally trained guy could have stepped to the right and started sticking his fingers in the bad guy's eyes while slowly pulling the firearm safely and bringing it to bear. (letting a bad guy get all the way on top of you is not the time to START some kind of defense) Once again, you don't need to be fast, you need to be smart. I could go on and on about this.



I have to disagree with this. We train to shoot from a retention position a lot. The so called "hip shot" is a viable defensive skill that needs to be honed. A lot of people get into your kill zone (for those who do not know what that means its the zone in which harm can be done, usually arms length in many classes) every day, and trying to keep people eight or nine feet away from you while you talk isn't normal and can be considered rude. This is true for many in law enforcment as well. Arizona POST ( Peace Officer Standards and Training) has now made it manditory that as part of an annual qualification officers will shoot from retenting at three yards. Its not letting the bad guy get up in your face, its the guy whos walking down the street towards you suddenly steps into your path and pulls a screwdriver. Its walking into your favorite stop-and-rob to get a drink when the guy in front of you decided to hold the place up. I agree that defense starts as soon as you see the person, even if its fifty or more yards away.


He was using a Serpa holster and unfortunatly they are made out to be the best thing ever. I have one for my service weapon when I taught as they are easy to toss on when a full Sam Browne isn't and looks nice for a classroom setting. The problem with them is that in order to remove the weapon you have to push a button in to release it and then draw up. A lot of people who are not familiar will seriously push down on that button and when they draw their finger falls stright onto the trigger guard. Now a lot of schools of thought say to keep your finger along side of the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot which is fine, I personally put my finger all the way up to the ejection port on my pistols. But what happens is people start trying to go too fast and that finger suddenly falls onto the trigger and what we have seen above happens. Now he also says that he was using a 5.11 holster earlier. I'm not a fan of swapping holsters in the middle of training. Of course you will have to change holster since me wearing around my holster I use for work (Safariland LE model) is way too cumbersome to wear when I have to conceal my firearm. It also just isn't practical to wear around. On the same token my in the waist band (IWB) would be a horrible choice for work carry since it is held tight against my side inside of my pants and would too slow to present.

I shoot mostly Glock pistols, and as stated above, they have no real safety on them besides a little do-dad thats on the trigger. If you follow the main rule of "booger hook off the bang switch" a lot of these "accidents" won't be given the chance to happen.

[KM-instructor]

Some people just plain and simple should not handle any weapons.

[Mako72]

He was using a Serpa holster and unfortunatly they are made out to be the best thing ever.... Now he also says that he was using a 5.11 holster earlier. I'm not a fan of swapping holsters in the middle of training. Of course you will have to change holster since me wearing around my holster I use for work (Safariland LE model) is way too cumbersome to wear when I have to conceal my firearm. It also just isn't practical to wear around. On the same token my in the waist band (IWB) would be a horrible choice for work carry since it is held tight against my side inside of my pants and would too slow to present.

I shoot mostly Glock pistols, and as stated above, they have no real safety on them besides a little do-dad thats on the trigger. If you follow the main rule of "booger hook off the bang switch" a lot of these "accidents" won't be given the chance to happen.

Those highlighted couple lines most accurately describe what happened the way I see it. He went from practicing with a 5.11 thumb releasing holster using a Glock to a Serpa trigger finger releasing holster with a Kimber Pro Carry 1911 in the same or nearly the same session. He admits in the video that he was used to drawing a Glock from the 5.11 with his thumb and in reflex he pushed the thumb out and it took off the safety. That combined with the trigger finger releasing Serpa and the natural tendancy to "over push" the Serpa button made his finger, probably unconsciously, slap into the trigger guard resulting in the ND. While the guy seemed from his videos to probably have been an accident waiting to happen it really is something that could have happened to most any shooter who makes an equipment change. I used to watch guys show up to shoot IDPA or IPSC leagues and show off their new gear, luckily most of the guys that RO'd those shoots tended to be very wary of new gear.

I think the best couple things to come of the whole incident are...

A)He had the b*lls to stand up and admit what happened and use it as an example to others so they might learn from his mistake.
B)Hopefully it will get him to rethink some of the stupider stuff he had on his web channel and take it down so other idiots don't try it.

Jay

[Psychofish]

I know when I decide to carry my 1911, I am way over cautious of it. The extra safties, heft, and grip all change compared to my G21, or G19. I also was taught by an officer who has sinced passed away, but I respected very much to always draw that gun five or more times before leaving the house to ensure you know what gun you are carrying and what kind of holster it is in. He made it a point, and I appriciate that very much so. I recently swapped holsters to the exact same holster I have worn for the past three years on duty, but added a light to my gun. After the first night of wearing to work I took it back off. I had to relearn how to draw my gun and how to put it back. I had practiced at home, but when I got to the jail I had a problem getting it out, and then putting it back.

[Mako72]

I know what you mean about the 1911, I don't carry my 1911 because I still prefer something with a longer trigger for CCW. My CCWs are a Kahr P9 or Keltec P32, both are similar triggerwise except the KT is a little longer. But I am comfortable with both and know them and my holsters for them, and when I go to practice with them I do not take any other pistols with me, even for dirt shooting. But its only 5 minutes for me to be in a safe desert range area so I have that luxury.

Jay

[noahpictures]

He clearly stated he did NOT want to be ridiculed.

Nice hat dude.

[aceinyerface]

I have to disagree with this. We train to shoot from a retention position a lot. The so called "hip shot" is a viable defensive skill that needs to be honed.

Yeah, I know. How much did you pay to learn that? See, I learned that technique from watching old westerns. You know, Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Lone Ranger, Wagon Train, western B movies, stuff like that.

It is actually an old movie cliche', the way it usually works is whoever is going to get murdered gets into scuffling with the villain, starts winning, then the villain slips his gun out of the holster and shoots the guy in the belly. Of course the guy dramatically drops dead instantly with the music going "BOM Bom bom".

Some one re-hashed a movie move and is charging a grand a pop to folks who don't know any better. Only they miss the meat that would really make that technique.

It is 16th century Japanese martial arts teaching, so it isn't an innovation or anything. Generally called "tai sabaki", commonly translated as "body movement". The concept, which is a constant in those martial arts, is that if an invisible line is drawn between the center of gravity of the two guys, when the attack is launched, you want to be off that line at least a little. It can be done in as few as a couple inches. That is an integrated martial arts concept.

Having the "gunfighter" freeze up in one spot to execute the "speed rock" is pretty sophomoric, as fighting techniques go.

But, I guess you would need to find a teacher who wasn't one dimensional. Or, heaven forbid, go learn some of this other stuff yourself and start connecting dots on your own.

[LittleLebowski]

Rather then basing opinions on James and his company on two or three people on this forum, people can go to getoffthex.com and read the reviews for themselves.

I'll second that with the caveat that one should also research him at M4carbine.net and lightfighter.net. I have a few technical disagreements with Yeager and the photographer between the targets while people were shooting at his class capped it for me.

[aceinyerface]

A lot of people get into your kill zone (for those who do not know what that means its the zone in which harm can be done, usually arms length in many classes) every day, and trying to keep people eight or nine feet away from you while you talk isn't normal and can be considered rude.

Is that the innovative name they give to another 16th century concept of "maai" or combative distance. Standard maai for people not holding knives/swords/polearms/etc... is roughly 6 ft. The distance of your extended arm plus their extended arm. 90% of the time, it is quite easy to maintain this. 9% of the of the time, you trust who you let in your bubble. It's that 1% that you don't trust where you have to be on high alert, get some force multiplier in your hands, and be sure you have space for movement available.

There ain't nothing new under the sun. Just things you are not aware of.

[aceinyerface]

Nice hat dude.

LOL, don't tell him that deer, hogs, squirrel, elk, etc... can't see red or green.

[LittleLebowski]

At what point in history did techniques stop evolving and it all became repetition, ace?

[Mako72]

Yeah, I know. How much did you pay to learn that? See, I learned that technique from watching old westerns. You know, Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Lone Ranger, Wagon Train, western B movies, stuff like that.

It is actually an old movie cliche', the way it usually works is whoever is going to get murdered gets into scuffling with the villain, starts winning, then the villain slips his gun out of the holster and shoots the guy in the belly. Of course the guy dramatically drops dead instantly with the music going "BOM Bom bom".

Some one re-hashed a movie move and is charging a grand a pop to folks who don't know any better. Only they miss the meat that would really make that technique.

It is 16th century Japanese martial arts teaching, so it isn't an innovation or anything. Generally called "tai sabaki", commonly translated as "body movement". The concept, which is a constant in those martial arts, is that if an invisible line is drawn between the center of gravity of the two guys, when the attack is launched, you want to be off that line at least a little. It can be done in as few as a couple inches. That is an integrated martial arts concept.

Having the "gunfighter" freeze up in one spot to execute the "speed rock" is pretty sophomoric, as fighting techniques go.

But, I guess you would need to find a teacher who wasn't one dimensional. Or, heaven forbid, go learn some of this other stuff yourself and start connecting dots on your own.

I know you don't mean to but you are coming off a little abrasive.

The technique in question doesn't come from Hollywood actually it comes from Col William E Fairbairn at the turn of the century. It is commonly called the Fairbairn 1/4 Position shot and it came from training the Shanghai Police Dept to retain their pistols. It was later perfected and evolved into several other techniques with the help of Eric Sykes and later Col Rex Applegate. And no the Speed rock does not involve the use of the good guy freezing, its actually a very fluid multipart move. Personally when I speak about a technique I don't go into the details often because there are associated moves with it that are designed to improve an officers chances of staying alive. I would suggest two books if you enjoy learning older techniques Rex Applegates Kill or get Killed and Fairbairn & Sykes Shooting to live. The only bad part is many of the techniques are at odds with the later Jeff Cooper styles that are currently taught., But either way good reads!

Jay

[rajagra]

It is 16th century Japanese martial arts teaching, so it isn't an innovation or anything. Generally called "tai sabaki", commonly translated as "body movement". The concept, which is a constant in those martial arts, is that if an invisible line is drawn between the center of gravity of the two guys, when the attack is launched, you want to be off that line at least a little.
They didn't have pistols in the 16th century Japan, or they would have worked out that the attacker's centre of gravity is totally irrelevant when shooting a gun.

[TankCommander1554]

Yeah, I know. How much did you pay to learn that? See, I learned that technique from watching old westerns. You know, Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Lone Ranger, Wagon Train, western B movies, stuff like that.

It is actually an old movie cliche', the way it usually works is whoever is going to get murdered gets into scuffling with the villain, starts winning, then the villain slips his gun out of the holster and shoots the guy in the belly. Of course the guy dramatically drops dead instantly with the music going "BOM Bom bom".

Some one re-hashed a movie move and is charging a grand a pop to folks who don't know any better. Only they miss the meat that would really make that technique.

It is 16th century Japanese martial arts teaching, so it isn't an innovation or anything. Generally called "tai sabaki", commonly translated as "body movement". The concept, which is a constant in those martial arts, is that if an invisible line is drawn between the center of gravity of the two guys, when the attack is launched, you want to be off that line at least a little. It can be done in as few as a couple inches. That is an integrated martial arts concept.

Having the "gunfighter" freeze up in one spot to execute the "speed rock" is pretty sophomoric, as fighting techniques go.

But, I guess you would need to find a teacher who wasn't one dimensional. Or, heaven forbid, go learn some of this other stuff yourself and start connecting dots on your own.

Up until this point, I have tried to maintain a calm attitude...until you have been to this course you have no business commenting on whether or not this course is "one-dimensional" or not. You are basing your whole opinion on an individual instructor and a whole business (one that has taught thousands of people) on one technique you saw in a youtube video from one person. You can make the same argument about movies for almost every shooting technique in the book.

Training for these types of situations should be fluid, different techniques work for different things. Any shooter will tell you that no one technique works for everything. That is what you seem to be implying about this school and its instructors.

Let me just say this...training for these situations is dangerous. The police, the military, and those of us that carry know that a gunfight is dangerous; why should training for one be any different? It is possible to mitigate some risk in training, but the fact of the matter is that when you train with a gun something does come out the end and it can kill you. We ALL (including Tex) accept the risk and possible consequences. Tex is big boy and wasn't forced by any means to attend any of these schools.

[TankCommander1554]

I'll second that with the caveat that one should also research him at M4carbine.net and lightfighter.net. I have a few technical disagreements with Yeager and the photographer between the targets while people were shooting at his class capped it for me.

Agreed. Yeager doesn't pull any punches and while he may do unorthodox things at times, he is very safe. The photographer is between targets at times - wasn't an issue for me personally but if people have issues with it, that's fine. Plenty of other high quality courses out there.

[LittleLebowski]

Did Tex say whose training he had taken?

[DSB]

Did Tex say whose training he had taken?

He posted a video of it here:


http://youtu.be/rXk0VSjlcf8

[luvmysuper]

Let's not get too excited here fellas, it's just a discussion. I mean, it isn't like this is a coticule thread! :lol:


Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what Tex does for a living?

My question about his "training" has more to do with the sequence of events as he describes them;

"After the shot went off, my training took over. I called my parents to let them know what happened, I called 911, I dressed my wound and had the bleeding stopped by the time the paramedics arrived."

Anybody else see a problem with that sequence?

[DSB]

Let's not get too excited here fellas, it's just a discussion. I mean, it isn't like this is a coticule thread! :lol:


Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what Tex does for a living?

My question about his "training" has more to do with the sequence of events as he describes them;

"After the shot went off, my training took over. I called my parents to let them know what happened, I called 911, I dressed my wound and had the bleeding stopped by the time the paramedics arrived."

Anybody else see a problem with that sequence?

I was thinking the exact same thing. "Uh, Tex, unless your parents are trauma surgeons who were 30 seconds away (with a full supply of trauma equipment with them), that first call should always be to 911." I'm not aware of any "training" that teaches you to call mommy or daddy when you suffer a potentially fatal wound. If the paramedic response time is an issue, I'm okay with call number two being to a neighbor or someone who will arrive before paramedics to assist with first aid.

A gunshot to the leg is nothing to take lightly -- if Tex had hit his femoral artery, Tex would be just another paragraph in the Darwin Awards.

[YoungerThanMyRazor]

Twenty-three year old who likes guns. I guess he was too fat to enlist.

[LittleLebowski]

Twenty-three year old who likes guns. I guess he was too fat to enlist.

You don't have to be military to enjoy firearms and be proficient using them in this country.

[aceinyerface]

I know you don't mean to but you are coming off a little abrasive.

Sorry, poking a little fun.

I have those books, though.

[aceinyerface]

Anybody else see a problem with that sequence?

Yeah. Heck, we never got that far into the critique.

[aceinyerface]

I have tried to maintain a calm attitude

Well get you a deep breath and take stock of your world. We are talking on a shaving forum about a dummy that shot himself. No one is talking about your mother, no one is kicking in your door. No need to get excited.

I question the need for the drill he was doing. I understand that lots of people do it, lots of people do lots of things that I don't think is right. Like putting bullet holes in everything. I'm past singling out your guy over other guys, they all appear to teach the same thing. Though, I'll grant there might actually be someone doing it different.

By "one dimensional" I mean Maslow's Golden Hammer. -"If your only tool is a hammer, you treat everything like a nail."
Dreaming up firearms scenarios, and using a firearm to solve them, logical.

Dreaming up hand to hand scenarios, then trying to use the firearm to solve them? Has anyone consulted a hand to hand expert on this, or a couple dozen of them? I don't think they have. I simply point out that the solution is remarkably "Hollywoodish".

The root of police cuffing and restraint techniques is Aikido. If someone went to an Aikido expert and asked "What should one do if someone gets right on top of them and they wanted to keep them from getting the gun?" Then cut them loose to work on it in some intense "trial and error", they would come back with "First thing, move your center". Then do the same with some Judo experts, then some jiujutsu experts, then some karate experts. I doubt any of them will come up with "Just stand there, and pull your gun as fast as you can."

Oh, and an expert in martial arts starts at about 6th degree "blackbelt". Getting your "Blackbelt" in Japanese is Shodan translated as "first step". Rokudan is 6th step.

[LittleLebowski]

Ace, you have a very large and obvious chip on your shoulder towards modern firearms training without the benefit of knowledge of it. When was your last formal firearms training? Who was the instructor?

Now is a golden time to learn from instructors that very often have been seeing combat for years. Suggest you open your mind a bit.

[aceinyerface]

Reading through something someone sent me on th 1911 forum- http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=324019&page=5

I came across something I had not seen before- http://pistol-training.com/archives/183

"“Israeli” Draw is a technique advocated by some for presenting a pistol from the holster. The gun is carried with an loaded magazine but no round in the chamber. As the gun is drawn from the holster, the shooter racks the slide to load the gun. "

"The Israeli draw is just as fast as a regular draw. The well known Summit school (Texas/New Mex/SFO) routinely teaches new shooter to draw and fire three to the head in 1.5 seconds or less. Experienced practioners often find it faster, as the Iraeli draw tends to be more powerful and forceful."

"This draw has been used for decades by literally millions of people, and is still being taught to polics and SWAT here in the US. It is an entirely rational choice, particularly for the common CCW carrier."

Now, that is something that I did not know.

[aceinyerface]

http://www.summitselfdefense.com/shooting_instruction_san_francisco.htm

Wow, I was just talking about one dimensional instructors. Here is a guy teaching self defense as well as firearms skills, and he has a different approach from the groupthink.

[Psychofish]

Yeah, I know. How much did you pay to learn that? See, I learned that technique from watching old westerns. You know, Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Lone Ranger, Wagon Train, western B movies, stuff like that.


I didn't pay, I was paid to attend the total fourty some odd hour class.



There ain't nothing new under the sun. Just things you are not aware of.


Very true, I was just adding that for those who were not aware to attempt to keep them in the loop of the conversation.

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.summitselfdefense.com/shooting_instruction_san_francisco.htm

Wow, I was just talking about one dimensional instructors. Here is a guy teaching self defense as well as firearms skills, and he has a different approach from the groupthink.

What is the "groupthink?" Is Todd Green, Larry Vickers, and Kyle Defoor part of it?

[LittleLebowski]

You don't believe that, do you?





"“Israeli” Draw is a technique advocated by some for presenting a pistol from the holster. The gun is carried with an loaded magazine but no round in the chamber. As the gun is drawn from the holster, the shooter racks the slide to load the gun. "

"The Israeli draw is just as fast as a regular draw. The well known Summit school (Texas/New Mex/SFO) routinely teaches new shooter to draw and fire three to the head in 1.5 seconds or less. Experienced practioners often find it faster, as the Iraeli draw tends to be more powerful and forceful."

"This draw has been used for decades by literally millions of people, and is still being taught to polics and SWAT here in the US. It is an entirely rational choice, particularly for the common CCW carrier."

[JoshuaNY]

"After the shot went off, my training took over. I called my parents to let them know what happened, I called 911, I dressed my wound and had the bleeding stopped by the time the paramedics arrived."

Anybody else see a problem with that sequence?

Well I am sure from the tender age of 3 his mommy taught him to call her if he was ever in trouble. So I guess 20 or so years of mommy telling you what to do is considered training of sorts :001_tt2:

[eastomjac]

just goes to show....guns dont hurt people idiots do.forgeting wich gun/holster you have on is the dangerous part,at least he didnt shoot anyone else.there should be an iq test mabey??

[Mako72]

Sorry, poking a little fun.

I have those books, though.

No need to apologize! You and I have talked before, I just didn't want anyone else to get the wrong impression.

Glad you have those books, an exciting peek sometimes into bygone eras. Always fun to me to see how many times any particular wheel, metaphorically speaking, has been reinvented. Thats the great thing about history.

Jay

[YoungerThanMyRazor]

You don't have to be military to enjoy firearms and be proficient using them in this country.

I'm sure he enjoys them, but he doesn't appear to be very proficient. I'm not about to get into a debate regarding the Second Amendment. I have absolutely no problem with responsible gun ownership. But that was not responsible.

I'm twenty-three too, and IMHO, twenty-three doesn't seem like an appropriate age to be attempting advanced/dangerous techniques with a firearm.

[jumper]

I laughed pretty hard at this idiot in the video, then I waded through the thread and chuckled at those who defended anything that he did. Doing something inconceivably moronic then putting it on YT doesn't mean he has 'balls' it just confirms the fact that he is an idiot. I'm still not sure why he took training, he's obviously too fat and soft to be in any sort of military or para military outfit. Is he just trained up in case a firefight breaks out at the local taco bell?

I think when John Browning sat down to design the 1911 the last portion of the sequence of events prior to the firing pin moving forward had nothing to do with 'disengage safety and pull trigger prior to getting fat leg out of kill zone. I watched another one of his YT vids for a chuckle and I'm sure Ben Henry didn't envision this moron one arming the rifle around.
I send the link to a bunch of my old army cronies and we had a good laugh at Tex's expense.

'Mom? Dad? Yup Tex here. Just shot myself making a YT vid! No no I shot myself in the leg! uhm, do me a favour and look up the number for 911 for me.

[TankCommander1554]

Well get you a deep breath and take stock of your world. We are talking on a shaving forum about a dummy that shot himself. No one is talking about your mother, no one is kicking in your door. No need to get excited.

I question the need for the drill he was doing. I understand that lots of people do it, lots of people do lots of things that I don't think is right. Like putting bullet holes in everything. I'm past singling out your guy over other guys, they all appear to teach the same thing. Though, I'll grant there might actually be someone doing it different.

By "one dimensional" I mean Maslow's Golden Hammer. -"If your only tool is a hammer, you treat everything like a nail."
Dreaming up firearms scenarios, and using a firearm to solve them, logical.

Dreaming up hand to hand scenarios, then trying to use the firearm to solve them? Has anyone consulted a hand to hand expert on this, or a couple dozen of them? I don't think they have. I simply point out that the solution is remarkably "Hollywoodish".

The root of police cuffing and restraint techniques is Aikido. If someone went to an Aikido expert and asked "What should one do if someone gets right on top of them and they wanted to keep them from getting the gun?" Then cut them loose to work on it in some intense "trial and error", they would come back with "First thing, move your center". Then do the same with some Judo experts, then some jiujutsu experts, then some karate experts. I doubt any of them will come up with "Just stand there, and pull your gun as fast as you can."

Oh, and an expert in martial arts starts at about 6th degree "blackbelt". Getting your "Blackbelt" in Japanese is Shodan translated as "first step". Rokudan is 6th step.

I am a little calmer now, hahaha

I can understand your point that one should consider all manner of defensive skills. I think being able to fight without a weapon is equally as important. I think the key with most firearms courses is they are designed for firearms. Other people teach martial arts and other people teach knife fighting, stick fighting, etc. Having one instructor that teaches all seems kind of "jack of all trades, master of none" to me.

Tex was dumb, I think we can all agree on that. Tex was made poor choices and yeah calling the parents before 911 is just stupid.

[LittleLebowski]

I wasn't looking for a debate, I am pointing out the facts. As far as his age, he's more than old enough and so are you. He just needs more training. Whether our current safety obsessed culture likes it or not, stupid people will continue to do stupid things and you can't legislate that fact out of existence.



I'm sure he enjoys them, but he doesn't appear to be very proficient. I'm not about to get into a debate regarding the Second Amendment. I have absolutely no problem with responsible gun ownership. But that was not responsible.

I'm twenty-three too, and IMHO, twenty-three doesn't seem like an appropriate age to be attempting advanced/dangerous techniques with a firearm.

[Psychofish]

I'm twenty-three too, and IMHO, twenty-three doesn't seem like an appropriate age to be attempting advanced/dangerous techniques with a firearm.

I'm sure a sizable chunk of the military would disagree.

[YoungerThanMyRazor]

I'm sure a sizable chunk of the military would disagree.

I was expecting a response like this. Do they teach quick draw techniques in the military? Servicemen use rifles, they're not running around in our warzones quick-drawing on terrorists. I'm sure you can become proficient in the usage of a firearm or rifle without doing stupid stuff like this.

[LittleLebowski]

I was expecting a response like this. Do they teach quick draw techniques in the military? Servicemen use rifles, they're not running around in our warzones quick-drawing on terrorists. I'm sure you can become proficient in the usage of a firearm or rifle without doing stupid stuff like this.

Yes, they do. With regards to your comments on rifles and servicemen, you don't know what you don't know. This also applies to drawing quickly to defend yourself against an attacker that is very close. I don't see how that is so hard to envision given the ample amount of supporting data available.

Your arguments make no sense whatsoever. It's your perfect right to comment on which you provably know nothing about but a little research would help the discussion. I live in your area (NoVA) and should you ever get the urge to further your firearms knowledge and skillet, I can point you to several extremely high quality instructors in this area.

[luvmysuper]

I was expecting a response like this. Do they teach quick draw techniques in the military? Servicemen use rifles, they're not running around in our warzones quick-drawing on terrorists. I'm sure you can become proficient in the usage of a firearm or rifle without doing stupid stuff like this.

Yes they do.

http://www.dvidshub.net/news/64796/usd-c-soldiers-conduct-reflexive-fire-range-enhance-urban-combat-abilities

"The soldiers followed zeroing their weapons with the reflexive fire portion of the range. A reflexive fire range is different than a typical qualification range.

During a reflexive fire range, soldiers are taught to quickly engage close-range targets to prepare properly for close-quarters battle in an urban environment."

[YoungerThanMyRazor]

Yes, they do. With regards to your comments on rifles and servicemen, you don't know what you don't know. This also applies to drawing quickly to defend yourself against an attacker that is very close. I don't see how that is so hard to envision given the ample amount of supporting data available.

Your arguments make no sense whatsoever. It's your perfect right to comment on which you provably know nothing about but a little research would help the discussion. I live in your area (NoVA) and should you ever get the urge to further your firearms knowledge and skillet, I can point you to several extremely high quality instructors in this area.

Thanks for the offer, maybe some day I'll take you up on it. I fully appreciate and respect any training the United States military does and I'm not trying to be critical of the many young men and woman my age who bravely serve.

Can we can all agree that Tex is an idiot?

[LittleLebowski]

Tex did a foolish thing. I hope that he learned something from this and seeks out more quality training.

[aceinyerface]

I wonder how many NDs they get like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGD2j9ks38g

Seems pretty quick. Quick enough, anyway.

All the arguments for and against seem to have been made in the 20 pages here- http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-tactical-training/36663-why-israeli-draw.html I am not going to argue anything, I don't have a dog in the race. Refer any vitriol back to the other forum.

I quite like this- "Carrying chamber empty is simply reassigning risk: you're adding a small risk to some small subset of gunfights, but you're subtracting a real risk of NDs. It's a trade-off, like everything else."

It sounds like something I might want spend a few hundred rounds investigating. I am more than willing to drop a blink's worth of speed for significant decreases in negligent discharges. (I dare say ol' Tex should have done so)

[LittleLebowski]

While not for me, I am curious about your experiment ace, particularly on the timer and with one handed drills.

[Kentos]

As Ron White says, " You just can't cure stupid."

That's not entirely true, depending on your definition of "cure".

[benvh]

A very...real...video.

[rajagra]

Can I say it?...

BOOM! Legshot!!!

[TankCommander1554]

It does seem fast, not gonna lie...my only issue is it's one more variable when you are already stressed. Not for me, but definitely an interesting presentation.

[LittleLebowski]

The myth of the Israeli Condition Three carry comes from the early days of Israel when the settlers had very little training and were issued whatever was handy. Tradition, institutional inertia, and a weird tendency of American gun owners to worship any type of "Israeli" martial technique has given a few "Mossad" trainers an angle to sell.

Considering that the US military has been taking the fight to the other side for about a decade now, I know which school of thought I follow. That and having been shot in the right arm, I know how quickly things go to hell when relying upon a single arm while going into shock.

I will say that anyone selling "Mossad" training also probably has some snake oil to sell. I seen no reason to deal with those dubious characters using unverifiable marketing when vetted trainers from Marine Recon, Delta, and SEAL Team 6 are right here in the states.

A very important note about the video that I'm surprised no one else noticed. At what range were they shooting at? I can personally draw my everyday carry weapon from concealment (real concealment, appendix carry not a stupid vest) and hit a 3x5 card at 25' in 1.5 seconds. I've hit 1.3 seconds but those tenths of a second are hard to shave off. I've been to some of the top shooting schools in America. I've seen the measure of other folk and these yahoos must be shooting ver y close to pull off the claims they are making without showing us the targets and range they are shooting at.

Raising the BS flag and hoisting it high!

[DavyRay]

The only problem I have with the arguments here is the mixing up of self-defense training and military training. I am not commenting on the video of the guy with the cowboy hat shooting himself in the leg, a.k.a. Barney Fife.

Police use sidearms to defend themselves while administering the law. A sidearm is a symbol of authority and a means of defending the same. Military police use sidearms. Officers use sidearms to defend themselves and to project their authority over their subordinates.

A rifle is an offensive weapon. No serious military planner counts on sidearms to win military conflicts.

I have read that there is a tombstone in Boot Hill that lists cause of death as suicide: "He tried to pistol-shoot a man with a Winchester.".

If you want to win a battle, use a radio or a rifle. If you want to police a neighborhood, carry a pistol.

In short, military training and sidearms are oil and water. I do see that some regular military units have sidearms. When did this change? The protocol used to be that the rifle was the weapon.

[LittleLebowski]

DR, no one is mixing up military and civilian training. However, the top military trainers are eminently qualified to teach pistol shooting. I can think of no faster way to get back into the fight at say 50 yards and in when your rifle malfunctions or runs out than to let it swing clear on the sling and bring your secondary (pistol) into the fight. Military training and sidearms are NOT oil and water. Not when I was in, not now.

At certain distances and in, a pistol is a very serious, accurate weapon that is easily concealed. Rifles win gunfights and all that but trying to say the military doesn't or shouldn't use sidearms is betraying your ignorance of the past and the present.

[LittleLebowski]

Officers use sidearms to defend themselves and to project their authority over their subordinates.


While your entire statement is amazingly outlandish, the above is so far out in left field, I have a hard time believing it was written. In what branch and MOS did you serve?

[DavyRay]

While your entire statement is amazingly outlandish, the above is so far out in left field, I have a hard time believing it was written. In what branch and MOS did you serve?

Where were you on D-Day? Imagine yourself as a Lieutenant in a landing craft. Your soldiers are supposed to wade through the water onto Omaha beach. They have rifles. You have a .45 auto. You are not positioned at the front of the landing craft. You are positioned at the back. Guess why?

[aceinyerface]

DavyRay, you're gonna need to put that guy on ignore, until he finally crosses a line enough that he gets booted. Won't be long, though.

[Psychofish]

Regardless of our views, can we all agree that at least this guy owns up to his mistakes, and has let it be a lesson on what not to do (in so many ways) by posting it on the internet. He isn't a Travis Haley, and he had the option of keeping his mouth shut and taping over that video, and no one would have been any wiser to his absence on youtube for a while. I have to at least give him that. Everything else, I just have to shake my head at.

Ace, I'm curious to see your findings. Any idea what setup you will be using? I think the next time I go out I will try also. I know on my last qualification I had a light primer strike and repetition more or less kicked in and I did the whole immediate action drills took over (kind of cool how that works so fast) and only slowed me down a little. I may need to dig out my old shot timer and see what I can find also.

[aceinyerface]

Any idea what setup you will be using?

Well, I haven't given it a ton of thought yet. I don't think you can jump out in an afternoon and get a definitive evaluation on something new, so it will probably be over a few sessions. Some dry fire drawing to kind of work out what works for the one hand part. Probably Glock 22, I want to try it with the shoulder holster (especially since some people are freaking over THAT). Also Serpa paddle. Can probably lay hands on a IWB for the G22. I am not a "speed draw" guy and don't have a timer, so I'm not going to have much quantitative information. I can only tell what I come up with and what I think.

According to the other forum, some people are making it work.- "The last time I was at Gunsite there was a student there that was required to carry e/c, so he trained that way. He did all the one-handed drills and was quite competitive with the others in the class.

When it came to the man-on-man shoot-off, he beat a lot in the class that were no slouches themselves."



I think the next time I go out I will try also.

Heck, why not. If nothing else, you find out exactly why you don't like it.

[Psychofish]

If you have an android (or iPhone) there are shot timer apps that will show your first shot after the buzzer for free out there. Ill probably run with with my g21 and *gasp* a 1911 both in serpas for a constant. I doubt its going to convert me all the way since I will still have to carry on duty with a hot chamber but it will be kind of cool to see what can be done. I better go hit the bench and start pumping some rounds out to shoot!

[LittleLebowski]

Where were you on D-Day? Imagine yourself as a Lieutenant in a landing craft. Your soldiers are supposed to wade through the water onto Omaha beach. They have rifles. You have a .45 auto. You are not positioned at the front of the landing craft. You are positioned at the back. Guess why?

So you didn't serve and don't want to research anything. A moderator posted a link in this very thread to soldiers using their pistols in current training. There's more to backing your point than watching Saving Private Ryan.

[LittleLebowski]

Ace, the Serpa is banned at most reputable training classes because of a whole host of problems. Mainly NDs and the entire mechanism binding up and locking the pistol in the holster when it gets dirty.

[luvmysuper]

I did post a link to current Military Training using sidearms. As part of a boarding party for foreign flagged shipping, we received advanced sidearm training while I was in the Military and it's been a good 15 years since I've been out.
Nothing beats a pistol when moving about confined spaces such as the urban environment or the passageways and compartments on a tanker, cargo or container ship.

Having said that, I've asked guys to be nice once before. Rude comments or statements that put people on the defensive are not welcome here. If you want to continue this conversation, treat folks with respect or risk being booted from this conversation or having it closed.

[LittleLebowski]

Soliod copy, lms.

On topic, here (http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1106) is an interview I did with an old buddy from the Corps that had to use his sidearm. Good reading and it might be very enlightening for you, davey.

[aceinyerface]

Ace, I'm curious to see your findings.

Initial dry fire, using a "Mississippi Timer"

Both hands, with sight picture- I get about the same time with the difference being the first shot will be one handed if I have to rack it. 2nd hand is moving in the other direction and is a fraction behind getting a two handed firing grip.

Two hands, no sight picture- I can get a half beat quicker if I don't have to rack it. If I have to rack it, it is close to the same time as aimed fire.

[DavyRay]

So you didn't serve and don't want to research anything. A moderator posted a link in this very thread to soldiers using their pistols in current training. There's more to backing your point than watching Saving Private Ryan.

Phil, I am playing nice. Just watch.

Lebo,

I have not watched "pvt ryan". I have not been in the military. My Dad was exec on a USN ship. He had an issue .45, which he only learned to shoot after consuming hundreds of rounds. I have friends who were in Rangers and Marines in VietNam. I have read quite a bit of Jeff Cooper, and Applegate, and Fairbairn. I like Fairbairn the best. He was a cop, btw.

I still think that sidearms are mostly defensive weapons used by officers and police. You wanna win a war, get a big gun. Sidearms in military units are mostly used by people like my buddy Al, who was an MP in the USAF.

I have not called you any names or suggested you are stupid. Do not do that to me.

[LittleLebowski]

Davy, sidearms are in use more than you think in the US military. Reading the link I posted would be enlightening as would reading what lovemysuper wrote. They are far from being merely "ornamental" as you think. That is the oddest idea I've heard in some time.

[DavyRay]

Davy, sidearms are in use more than you think in the US military. Reading the link I posted would be enlightening as would reading what lovemysuper wrote. They are far from being merely "ornamental" as you think. That is the oddest idea I've heard in some time.

Sidearms have their uses, especially in law enforcement and MP. If you need to clear a nest of bad guys, though, you would be well advised to get an offensive weapon for the job.

[LittleLebowski]

I don't think you have read the link I posted nor have you thought about "transition to secondary," Davy. If Delta, Force Recon, and SEAL Team 6 guys can't convince you, I guess you win the argument for "internet stubbornness."

A sidearm can be very useful for the offense when carried concealed. Read this (http://www.mensjournal.com/black-ops-and-blood-money) for an example or simply ignore it like you have done with the other links I've posted.

I will say that rifle win gunfights.

[DavyRay]

I do not see any links in your posts. Please check them.

[LittleLebowski]

I do not see any links in your posts. Please check them.

They are certainly there but try these.

http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1106

http://www.mensjournal.com/black-ops-and-blood-money

[aceinyerface]

Coincidentally, On "Shooting Gallery" this week, Michael Bane http://www.downrange.tv/blog/about/michael-bane-bio/ was explaining how the "Wild Bunch" matches (cowboy shooting matches where the pistol is a 1911) are drawn from condition 3 (empty chamber) for safety. He goes on to explain that the Israeli's do it the same, etc... His word for word final sentence-

"So, just because your sport does it, doesn't mean that the whole world does that."

[LittleLebowski]

Maybe you should start a thread about Condition Three carry since you seem to be such a huge advocate of it now, Ace.

[RF1963]

As Ron White says, " You just can't cure stupid."

The fella in the video had a good try.