The Terrorists Won?

[DavyRay]

I ain't getting on a plane if I have any other choice. Amtrak or a rented car is better. Did these guys learn to emulate east german goons by playing video games, or does it come naturally?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/26/florida.tsa.incident/

[DaveNJ74]

I agree, its all smoke and mirrors. A friend of mine who is a police officer had 4 extra rounds in his jacket pocket left over from the shooting range which he forgot about. He went to Vegas for a wedding and when he got to the hotel he found the bullets in his pocket. You can't take DE blades with you though in your carry on...LOL What a joke.

[Balcmeg]

One reason for me to take my vacations at other places - unfortunately.

[The Nid Hog]

True story: a couple of years ago, I flew to Chicago on business. At the hotel, I was digging around in the outside pocket of my computer bag for something and I found a .45 ACP round. I don't own a .45. I don't know if this was from some kind of a security drill gone wrong or what.

Airport security is a mess and, IMHO, most of the people doing the searching have no clue what their doing. Probably the best thing we could do is to immediately dissolve the Department of Homeland Security and restore operations to whoever was running things when we won WWII. This is just all cosmetic fixes and useless bureaucracy.

[Easttexasman]

I am convinced that there is no one working for the TSA that does not have an attitude problem or any common sense.

[Alraz]

This is exactly what terrorist had in mind: It is about keeping them in our minds all the time by changing our way of living.

Al raz.

[DustMite]

I ain't getting on a plane if I have any other choice. Amtrak or a rented car is better...You might not want to ride the train either. The TSA is targeting train stations and bus stations now. If not in your town, then soon.
I find a private plane, charter plane, drive, or take a boat to wherever I want to go, now.
Now that they are a tax-payer paid government union, I contend the invasion of personal privacy will increase. The TSA has not actually stopped anybody and they are targeting the wrong people. 95-year-old grandmothers, clergy, and children do not exactly fit the stereotype of the kind of people who would hijack a plane in flight. I'll leave it to your imagination to fill in the blank of who would commit such an act.

I don't know about you, but I feel better now after having vented.

[riooso]

It does make one angry. The Israelis have a tried and true methods but because everything we do can't be the least bit outside "PC" everyone suffers! Anything the US government does eventually becomes "broken", it is just the way they do things.

R

[mgiah]

Every time I see one of these stories, my blood just boils.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin

[miamimoe]

I read this story as well, and it really got me upset. I flew back from Barcelona on Saturday night. When I went through the metal detector, I set it off. The security guard told me he had to do a pat down. I cannot complain, as he was extremely polite and courteous about it. He thinks it was the credit cards in my wallet that set it off. I live in Israel and fly out of Ben Gurion airport quite a bit, and I can tell you that here, profiling is what it is all about. The last 7 times I have flown, my bags have not even gone through a metal detector. Why? Well for reasons I won't bother with here, it is pretty obvious to the security people that I am not someone that they need to concern themselves with. As noted above, in the PC times we live in, this is not done in the US, which IMO is plain stupid. When I last came back from the states in December, a young woman was ahead of me in line. When her hand held bag went through the machine, they found a water bottle. This was water that was purchased at the airport. I knew this because at the airport, they sell a "private label" product that I have not seen anywhere else. When the TSA person found it, she took it out of the bag, and held it aloft, high in her hand and said for all to hear: "Lookit what we got here". It was also easy to see that the bottle was still sealed with the plastic wrap around the top. Seems to me that now, stopping people from taking bottled water on the plane is their main mission. I have no respect for TSA, and consider them to be a worthless government bureaucracy. However, they are now entrenched, and they are not going away. I feel horrible for this woman and her daughter, and hope that god has a special place in hell for the agents who subjected them to this behavior.

[BCatl]

I remember well after 911 that a good number of the public were begging for the government to get involved.

The complaints at the time were about the private companies that ran airport security and how horrible they were (and they were pretty bad). In the rush to legislate after 911, we also got Patriot Act I (which was supposed to sunset) and then later (and not surprisingly) Patriot Act II.

The public runs from one extreme to the other.

[chuckr9]

I have to agree that this is a form of victory for the terrorists. I think, for the most part, the TSA staff are trying to follow thier rules - but with so many peolple invloved, and judgement needed in applying the rules these problems will occur.

[_JP_]

While I agree that the screening procedures still needs a major tuneup (if not overhaul) we have to keep in mind that terrorists are willing use the most despicable means possible in order to create destruction. And they already have proved that.

[Obsessed]

True story: a couple of years ago, I flew to Chicago on business. At the hotel, I was digging around in the outside pocket of my computer bag for something and I found a .45 ACP round. I don't own a .45. I don't know if this was from some kind of a security drill gone wrong or what.

Ok, that's really weird.

[Vic2009]

I've flown through BG myself. While the interview by 2 different staff takes a little time, I knew immediately what they were looking out for. I did not get the metal detector nor was I molested. But I sure felt safe.

The BG methods require great skill and intelligence, implying willingness to hire the right persons and to pay a good salary for it.

In the 70s and 80s, Hong Kong's Kai Tak Airport was known for one mean and efficient profiling system for drug traffickers. It was done by eyeballing, and it worked. Again, skill and intelligence are prerequisites. Readers can fill in the blanks themselves.

PC will thrive when there's an unlimited source of money to feed it. In economic systems that still operate with the tacit understanding of scarcity, PC would not survive for long.


... I live in Israel and fly out of Ben Gurion airport quite a bit ...

[Rhon]

"The BG methods require great skill and intelligence" Skill and intelligence...that's two strikes against them. I can't seem to get through security at our court house. I won't even try the airport.

[ouch]

Probably the best thing we could do is to immediately dissolve the Department of Homeland Security and restore operations to whoever was running things when we won WWII.

You know I'm going to be using that line. :ouch1:

[luvmysuper]

Come on...
The terrorists have won?
On any given day there 7500 airplanes in the air in the US, with over 2 million passengers each day.
Given the fact that the TSA is a cross section of society and has its fair share of egotistical, uneducated, and over enthusiastic employees, and the fact that the guidelines they use are ambiguous at best, I'm frankly surprised there aren't MORE stories like this.
Though I agree that the situations described are horrible, and we all need to push in whatever way we can for sensible actions, a few stories don't mean the world is coming to an end.
Or that the "Terrorists have Won".
Contact your Senator and Congressman, write letters to the Airlines.
A combination of Political will due to fear of losing an election combined with Airline money is the quickest way to address this.
That's my perspective anyway. You're free to have yours.

[Doc4]

I get the feeling that a lot of what passes as "airport security" is aimed at creating a public perception that the government is "doing something" and "keeping us safe" ... and how can we tell? Why, because of all the inconveniences at the airport of course! The "back door" at the airport ... the one the passengers never see ... is a lot less secure. :sad:


Probably the best thing we could do is to immediately dissolve the Department of Homeland Security and restore operations to whoever was running things when we won WWII.


You know I'm going to be using that line. :ouch1:

So ... instead of flying straight to Paris for your vacation they're going to drop you in three feet of Normandy beach surf and make you walk the rest of the way. :wink2:

[JellyFox]

Racial profiling is silly. More planes have been hijacked by people who wanted to go to Cuba than by terrorists trying to make political statements. And terrorists come in all colours. Your Arabic neighbour is no more likely to be a member of al-Qaeda than your Germanic neighbour a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Besides, if you deserve not to have your right to privacy trampled over, then so does everybody else getting on your plane, regardless of their skin colour.

If you can walk onto a plane without being patted down, but others can't because they fit a certain profile, it's still a win for the terrorists.

[miamimoe]

Racial profiling is silly. More planes have been hijacked by people who wanted to go to Cuba than by terrorists trying to make political statements. And terrorists come in all colours. Your Arabic neighbour is no more likely to be a member of al-Qaeda than your Germanic neighbour a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Besides, if you deserve not to have your right to privacy trampled over, then so does everybody else getting on your plane, regardless of their skin colour.

If you can walk onto a plane without being patted down, but others can't because they fit a certain profile, it's still a win for the terrorists.

It is not solely an issue of racial profiling. While I admit that an Israeli Arab has a better chance of being stopped than I do, that is not the only thing that they are looking for. They are looking at your responses to questions as well as your physical responses, e.g., facial expression, rapid eye movement, sweat, general nervousness, body twitches and the like. It is based on a number of criteria. While race and ethnicity are definitely in the mix, they are not the only factors.

[DE_Dude]

My stepdad's mom doesn't want to fly anymore--she's an elderly white American lady, and was pretty much traumatized at the airport by getting taken to another room where she had to take off her clothes for a TSA agent a few years ago. She was furious that they did it because she "fit the terrorist profile" by buying a one way ticket with cash, and that while she was being questioned "Arabs were just walking through the metal detector" without a second glance.

I don't know what the answer is, but I feel sorry for people, especially the elderly, who emotionally can't handle getting touched/strip searched, but want to see their families.

[ouch]

So ... instead of flying straight to Paris for your vacation they're going to drop you in three feet of Normandy beach surf and make you walk the rest of the way. :wink2:

Hey, it was good enough for my dad!

Actually, they dropped him off in Okinawa. How he got to Paris is beyond me.

[bamafan64]

Racial profiling is silly. More planes have been hijacked by people who wanted to go to Cuba than by terrorists trying to make political statements. And terrorists come in all colours. Your Arabic neighbour is no more likely to be a member of al-Qaeda than your Germanic neighbour a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Besides, if you deserve not to have your right to privacy trampled over, then so does everybody else getting on your plane, regardless of their skin colour.

If you can walk onto a plane without being patted down, but others can't because they fit a certain profile, it's still a win for the terrorists.
And it is insanity to ignore obvious demographics if they are based on reality. When we are hit again, if it is by someone of Arabic origin who wasn't searched due to fear of being accused of profiling or racism, the terrorists will have won using our own laws against us. Political correctness has no place in the real world.

[npsarros]

I read this story as well, and it really got me upset. I flew back from Barcelona on Saturday night. When I went through the metal detector, I set it off. The security guard told me he had to do a pat down. I cannot complain, as he was extremely polite and courteous about it. He thinks it was the credit cards in my wallet that set it off. I live in Israel and fly out of Ben Gurion airport quite a bit, and I can tell you that here, profiling is what it is all about. The last 7 times I have flown, my bags have not even gone through a metal detector. Why? Well for reasons I won't bother with here, it is pretty obvious to the security people that I am not someone that they need to concern themselves with. As noted above, in the PC times we live in, this is not done in the US, which IMO is plain stupid. When I last came back from the states in December, a young woman was ahead of me in line. When her hand held bag went through the machine, they found a water bottle. This was water that was purchased at the airport. I knew this because at the airport, they sell a "private label" product that I have not seen anywhere else. When the TSA person found it, she took it out of the bag, and held it aloft, high in her hand and said for all to hear: "Lookit what we got here". It was also easy to see that the bottle was still sealed with the plastic wrap around the top. Seems to me that now, stopping people from taking bottled water on the plane is their main mission. I have no respect for TSA, and consider them to be a worthless government bureaucracy. However, they are now entrenched, and they are not going away. I feel horrible for this woman and her daughter, and hope that god has a special place in hell for the agents who subjected them to this behavior.
+1

It is this crazyness that we MUST be PC that will be our downfall
You see it so many times where they are looking for a bottle of water rather than something really dangerous.

I travel with medication that looks like an Epi pin. When the TSA sees it they ask me 1000 questions, problem is they only find it once every 10 times I travel, and only because they see the ice.

Our airplanes are no safer than on 9/10/2001, but no worries no one is on flight xyz with water, granny may try and drown the pilot or something

[eastomjac]

I am convinced that there is no one working for the TSA that does not have an attitude problem or any common sense.

i'll hitch hike before i'll ever try to fly

[JellyFox]

It is not solely an issue of racial profiling. While I admit that an Israeli Arab has a better chance of being stopped than I do, that is not the only thing that they are looking for. They are looking at your responses to questions as well as your physical responses, e.g., facial expression, rapid eye movement, sweat, general nervousness, body twitches and the like. It is based on a number of criteria. While race and ethnicity are definitely in the mix, they are not the only factors.

Okay, well that's a bit different than I thought (and what I think some people are suggesting).


And it is insanity to ignore obvious demographics if they are based on reality.

Fine, but those demographics aren't what you'd think:

http://i51.tinypic.com/slirkn.jpg

Source: http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/

The majority of terrorist attacks on US soil have been from Latino and extreme left-wing groups. And from the small fraction of Muslim terrorists, 32/139 prosecuted terrorists were Arabs, 24 were African-American, 24 were South Asian, 20 were Somali, and 20 were white (source (http://www.sanford.duke.edu/news/Schanzer_Kurzman_Moosa_Anti-Terror_Lessons.pdf)).

[bamafan64]

Okay, well that's a bit different than I thought (and what I think some people are suggesting).



Fine, but those demographics aren't what you'd think:

http://i51.tinypic.com/slirkn.jpg

Source: http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/

The majority of terrorist attacks on US soil have been from Latino and extreme left-wing groups. And from the small fraction of Muslim terrorists, 32/139 prosecuted terrorists were Arabs, 24 were African-American, 24 were South Asian, 20 were Somali, and 20 were white (source (http://www.sanford.duke.edu/news/Schanzer_Kurzman_Moosa_Anti-Terror_Lessons.pdf)).

Loonwatch is not the most unbiased source of information out there....
"Loonwatch.com is a blogzine run by a motley group of hate-allergic bloggers to monitor and expose the web’s plethora of anti-Muslim loons, wackos, and conspiracy theorists.
While we find the sheer stupidity and outrageousness of the loons to be a source of invaluable comedy, we also recognize the seriousness of the danger they represent as dedicated hatemongers. And so, while our style reflects our bemusement, our content is fact checked and our sources well vetted making sure loonwatch.com is a reliable educational – if entertaining – resource on the rambunctious underworld of Muslim-bashing.

Find a reputable and known source of valid information next time.

[DE_Dude]

Okay, well that's a bit different than I thought (and what I think some people are suggesting).



Fine, but those demographics aren't what you'd think:

http://i51.tinypic.com/slirkn.jpg

Source: http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/

The majority of terrorist attacks on US soil have been from Latino and extreme left-wing groups. And from the small fraction of Muslim terrorists, 32/139 prosecuted terrorists were Arabs, 24 were African-American, 24 were South Asian, 20 were Somali, and 20 were white (source (http://www.sanford.duke.edu/news/Schanzer_Kurzman_Moosa_Anti-Terror_Lessons.pdf)).

I don't understand where the writers got the information they used to make their pie graph...on their source (it says to scroll to the bottom of the USA government website which is linked), the final 10 years are almost all from animal rights or Earth Liberation groups. They don't seem that latino to me, which is the overwhelming majority on the graph. Also, a lot has changed since the data collected--it stops at 2005, when this stuff of heightened security levels was just getting warmed up, IMO. The only latino attacks I could find were bombings from the 80s.

It also doesn't show that these left wing and latino groups attacked any planes, just bombings in general, which I don't think have caused big ups in security as much as airport threats have. As far as I understand, Al Qaida has been the big one targeting planes (wasn't the shoe bomber affiliated with them?). I bring this up because I think this whole conversation stemmed from airport security, and that's the place that would make me feel that the terrorists "won." I've never heard of a leftist or latino group hijacking a US plane in recent years.

Your post is interesting though, so if I'm missing something please let me know. I appreciate seeing another side of the story.

[miamimoe]

There is no doubt that racial profiling on its own, is a big mistake. This would subject many, many innocent people to legalized harassment. Profiling is much more than race and ethnicity. True, profiling does take those things into account, of course, but that is a small part of the picture. Behavior, responses to questions, point of origin, destination, baggage, etc., are what they are looking for, to make up a picture of who this person is, and if they need to be scrutinized more carefully.

[IronJohn]

Racial profiling is silly. More planes have been hijacked by people who wanted to go to Cuba than by terrorists trying to make political statements. And terrorists come in all colours. Your Arabic neighbour is no more likely to be a member of al-Qaeda than your Germanic neighbour a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Besides, if you deserve not to have your right to privacy trampled over, then so does everybody else getting on your plane, regardless of their skin colour.

If you can walk onto a plane without being patted down, but others can't because they fit a certain profile, it's still a win for the terrorists.

The Profile method used in Israel has little to do with race. I suggest you read up on the subject and I don't say that to be a smart a**, but because that's a conclusion that a lot of people come to for no really good reason.

Profiling is a tried and true method that causes less invasion of privacy for all passengers. By what you are saying if some of the people have to suffer, then everybody should have to suffer.

As far as race goes, if there is a road block and the criminal they are searching for is a tall, dark haired man, wearing a blue sweatshirt and driving a Pontiac I can't whine because I'm pulled over because I fit that description. I can't say, "Everybody should be searched because I'm being searched because I fit a certain description."

Now if I fly to several known terrorist nations and then fly into Ben Gurion, I can't whine because they are profiling peoples travel to search out potential terrorists. It's just the way it is.

[Vic2009]

"By what you are saying if some of the people have to suffer, then everybody should have to suffer."

+1 A great example of reductio ad absurdum

The position that all profiling is solely based on race is easy to assert, but impossible to prove. Equivocation is the staple of PC.

[davros]

"By what you are saying if some of the people have to suffer, then everybody should have to suffer."

+1 A great example of reductio ad absurdum

The position that all profiling is solely based on race is easy to assert, but impossible to prove. Equivocation is the staple of PC.

Erm, has anyone advanced that position though? Some people have questioned the efficacy and the equitability of straight racial/ethnic profiling, other people have said that Israeli profiling is more complicated than that, and that seems to have been accepted.

This would seem to be a great example of a strawman.

[Vic2009]

You're right, nobody has advanced that position ~explicitly~. The difficulty is reading between the lines to look for the unstated premise, which is what I tried to do (from "Racial profiling is silly"...). Looking at the posts, a more likely unstated premise would be that racial profiling is not admissible as any part of profiling criteria.


Erm, has anyone advanced that position though? Some people have questioned the efficacy and the equitability of straight racial/ethnic profiling, other people have said that Israeli profiling is more complicated than that, and that seems to have been accepted.

This would seem to be a great example of a strawman.

[Confilo]

Erm, has anyone advanced that position though? Some people have questioned the efficacy and the equitability of straight racial/ethnic profiling, other people have said that Israeli profiling is more complicated than that, and that seems to have been accepted.

This would seem to be a great example of a strawman.



I wonder how they would feel in Israel if the people from the Jewish religion are being profiled. It already happened in Europe. Can't we learn something from it?
The terrorist win when we start thinking & behaving like them

[instpasr]

All I know is that the current director of Homeland Security contradicts herself almost daily, about the terrorist winning I'm Not so sure. There has been near misses but no successful attacks in the 10 years since 9-11. TSA needs to be revamped for sure, perhaps the next director will have a law enforcement background.

[mmack66]

http://www.travelsnitch.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/TS_Total_Recall_screenshot.jpg

[instpasr]

http://www.travelsnitch.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/TS_Total_Recall_screenshot.jpg

Total recall....some of Ahnold's better work. :lol:

[rajagra]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

What would Mr. Franklin say about people who give up their liberty and humiliate their own elders just for the illusion of safety?

Having said that, that lady does look familiar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dooGrI0FHkU

[davros]

You're right, nobody has advanced that position ~explicitly~. The difficulty is reading between the lines to look for the unstated premise, which is what I tried to do (from "Racial profiling is silly"...). Looking at the posts, a more likely unstated premise would be that racial profiling is not admissible as any part of profiling criteria.

I think I understand where you're coming from, and cheers for the measured response. But seriously, I think criticising 'unstated premises' has to be done with care and restraint. If someone started complaining about a racist undertone in some posts on this thread, I can well imagine that lots of people would be offended, and things would get rather ugly, because they would quite reasonably feel they were being attacked for something that was being imputed to them, rather than something they actually said.

FWIW, I think that 'racial' profiling, presumably of Muslims, in the US system just wouldn't be that useful a tool, and might even be counter-productive if it encourages complacency about people who don't fit the profile. There are about 200 million Indonesian Muslims who don't look or sound like Arabs or South Asians, and I don't know how many million black Africans, and Al-Qaida has certainly had operatives in both those populations. Given that terrorists can reasonably be expected to lie about their identity and/or travel on fake documents, you end up 'prioritising' anyone from a range of phenotypes that covers 2-3 billion people, most of whom probably aren't Muslim. Can the average Homeland Security/TSA officer readily distinguish between a Muslim Indian and a Hindu one, or, more to the point, a Muslim who says he's a Hindu? I've no idea how many such people are passing through US airports at any given time (though I'd wager it's more than you might think) but I really doubt the practicality of subjecting them all to the kind of scrutiny that the Israelis dish out to people they consider suspicious.

Now, supposedly there are more sophisticated aspects of profiling, and indeed there would have to be, to narrow this pretty vast field down to manageable proportions, and also to cover those cases who just don't fit the ethnic criteria at all, like the Irishwoman who unknowingly carried a bomb planted by her Palestinian boyfriend into Ben Gurion, and the small but very real number of Muslims of European and African-American/ African-Caribbean origin, even aside from the possibility of non-Muslim terrorists. Bear in mind that the Israeli system, from what I can gather, involves questioning everyone, or almost everyone who travels. This kind of approach may or may not render America more secure, but for it to be done in a way that works, I really can't see how it could translate into ostensibly non-Muslim Americans and Europeans being able to travel anything like as easily as they could before 2001.

[franz]

One of the weaknesses of profiling based on how people look is that once that profile becomes known, it can easily be exploited.

The parallels to the security apparatus in Israel are interesting, but the authorities in Israel have a much easier job controlling who flies in and out of Ben Gurion. In the name of security, the Israeli people also tolerate a wide range of practices that most Americans would consider overly intrusive.

[Fairchild86]

There is an email circulating, supposedly by an American Airlines pilot. However, the name attributed, Captain John Maniscalco, cannot be confirmed. It seems to have origins that pre-date the email. It was published earlier by Gazette.net, under the author Kevin Daly.

Regardless of the origin, it is still worth a read. You can google it if you like.

[Vic2009]

I think I understand where you're coming from, and cheers for the measured response. But seriously, I think criticising 'unstated premises' has to be done with care and restraint. ...

Mea culpa. Thank you for your kind words. If I have hurt anybody's feelings, please accept my apology.


FWIW, I think that 'racial' profiling, presumably of Muslims, in the US system just wouldn't be that useful a tool, and might even be counter-productive if it encourages complacency about people who don't fit the profile. ...

Complacency can be dangerous. But any kind of profiling has to be adaptive to work. Thinking on the fly, alertness, reliable instincts... these are some attributes that I think are worth a good salary not just for airport security, but for any mission-critical job. That's what I was alluding to when I mentioned great skill and intelligence in my earlier post.

It's not easy to be objective when feelings are strong, and this applies first to myself :001_smile

[miamimoe]

Now, supposedly there are more sophisticated aspects of profiling, and indeed there would have to be, to narrow this pretty vast field down to manageable proportions, and also to cover those cases who just don't fit the ethnic criteria at all, like the Irishwoman who unknowingly carried a bomb planted by her Palestinian boyfriend into Ben Gurion, and the small but very real number of Muslims of European and African-American/ African-Caribbean origin, even aside from the possibility of non-Muslim terrorists. Bear in mind that the Israeli system, from what I can gather, involves questioning everyone, or almost everyone who travels. This kind of approach may or may not render America more secure, but for it to be done in a way that works, I really can't see how it could translate into ostensibly non-Muslim Americans and Europeans being able to travel anything like as easily as they could before 2001.

Everyone who flies out of Ben Gurion is questioned by a security agent. When you reach the terminal, you may be questioned before you even walk in; happens rarely in my experience. Once you get to the check in line for your airline, you must present your passport and tickets to an agent who will question you before you can even get to the check in desk. You may be told to put your bags through the machine or not, and then proceed to ticketing. Once you are checked in, you will go to another security area where you and your carryon bags will go through the machine, then on to passport control. It sounds daunting, but it is not. The ordinary traveler gets through the whole thing pretty quickly. Of course, your behavior is also scrutinized on camera as you go through the airport. The system has been proven to be very effective. Some people are very inconvenienced of course. All I can say is that in my experience, it is faster and far less degrading than your routine TSA inspection

[mmack66]

This reads like something that likely came out right after 9/11. It fit with the sentiment back then, but this really has no place today. Quite frankly, I find it a little offensive.


This is an email circulating, supposedly by an American Airlines pilot. However, the name attributed, Captain John Maniscalco, cannot be confirmed. It seems to have origins that pre-date the email. It was published earlier by Gazette.net, under the author Kevin Daly.

[franz]

This reads like something that likely came out right after 9/11. It fit with the sentiment back then, but this really has no place today. Quite frankly, I find it a little offensive.

+1. Nobody should be held to answer for their identity as though it bestows guilt.

[luvmysuper]

Well said Franz!

And to anyone else considering posting here;
Please let's not make this another doomed thread.
That would be two in a row for DavyRay, and that doesn't bode well.

If you have to say something racist or insulting, write it on a piece of paper and mail it in, and I'll personally take care of it appropriately.

[BigFoot]

I spend a lot of time in the air. Are some of the things we have to go through silly and an inconvenience.....most definitely. But I have found out if you are polite when going through security it is a breeze. If you check your luggage it is even easier. I have also noticed that airports that hire private security are better trained and much more competent than the ones who work for TSA.

The terrorist IMO have not won nor will they.

[DavyRay]

I do seriously regret the indignity meted out by the TSA employees to the citizens waiting in line to have their papers and bodies checked. I would prefer the Israeli method of using skilled interviewers rather than putting every flier through an MRI or worse.

Sometimes I think the Archie Bunker theory of preventing airplane hijacking would be the best.

Please, fellas, don't pull that racist stuff. Over there, you can't always tell the Israelis from the Arabs by looking at them. It isn't profiling by race. It's experienced, trained security people.

[awolff]

And it is insanity to ignore obvious demographics if they are based on reality. When we are hit again, if it is by someone of Arabic origin who wasn't searched due to fear of being accused of profiling or racism, the terrorists will have won using our own laws against us. Political correctness has no place in the real world.

Shoe bomber: 28 year old British guy with a white mother and black father
Individual who flew a plane into the IRS building: Middle-aged white guy from texas
Underwear bomber: 23 year old black kid from Nigeria

Which one of those fits your racial profile?

Political correctness has nothing to do with this. Singling out a person of a particular race because they or their ancestors are from roughly the same 8,000,000 square mile neighborhood where some jerks are from isn't a defensible security policy; it's racist.


And re: Israel:

It isn't profiling by race. It's experienced, trained security people
This. +42

[riooso]

Sad point to be made here. Now it appears that there are starting to be cancer cluster for the poor TSA agents that work the scanners. This is just a cluster F. Why is it that when the government gets involved that it becomes a F.U.B.A.R mess?

Richard

[instpasr]

Anytime the Fed manages something it gets waaay to big and unmanageable. My cousin works for the TSA and she constantly complains about the layers of stupidity above and below her.

[Confilo]

I do seriously regret the indignity meted out by the TSA employees to the citizens waiting in line to have their papers and bodies checked. I would prefer the Israeli method of using skilled interviewers rather than putting every flier through an MRI or worse.

Sometimes I think the Archie Bunker theory of preventing airplane hijacking would be the best.

Please, fellas, don't pull that racist stuff. Over there, you can't always tell the Israelis from the Arabs by looking at them. It isn't profiling by race. It's experienced, trained security people.




So were the Nazis ...well trained & racist

[luvmysuper]

So were the Nazis ...well trained & racist

Ahah!!!

I get to call

GODWINS LAW

Seriously - I know it was not your intent, but the way it is posted makes it appear that you are comparing what the Israeli Security Forces do with Nazi Germany.

I'll say this ONE LAST TIME

Lay off the racism theme.

[miamimoe]

I think we are getting away from the theme of the subject as noted by Phil, which is whether or not the terrorists won. I personally am torn about the answer. I am old enough to remember when no security even existed when I flew, starting when my parents would send my sister and I off to visit the grandparents for 3 weeks every summer. Then, there was the initiation of some security following the hijackings to Cuba from Miami (my hometown), and of course the beginning of the more "modern era" of airline hijackings, which started in Europe and the Middle East in the early to mid-70's. Then of course, came 9/11. Knowing the extremes involved from no security to what we have now is a sobering experience. One can argue that the terrorists have won due to the changes that have been necessarily made to security procedures, not just at the airport, but in many phases of life. On the other hand, you can argue that since life goes on pretty much as normal on a day to day basis, they have not won.

Here, where I live, day to day security measures are far stricter than in the states or Europe. For example, when I go to the mall, the supermarket, or restaurants that seat more than x number of people, etc., there is an armed guard at the door. You will be wanded, and depending on locale, pass through a metal detector. You will be asked if you have a gun, etc. I also see armed soldiers on a daily basis. Yet, I feel very safe and secure here, and from the point of view of street crime, Israel is far safer than a lot of American cities. I routinely see groups of young people out late at night, without adult supervision. I see small children riding on public buses without adults on their way to school. While I wish the security measures did not even exist, life for me is very normal here, and after a while I got totally used to the routine and what is expected of me when I am at any security checkpoint. In that sense, as long as the country continues to function as a democracy, and there is legal redress for whatever grievances one may have with the security apparatus, which is the case both here and in the States, the terrorists have not won, which I think was the essence of DavyRay's OP. My .02 for whatever it is worth.

[JellyFox]

Bamafan64: Yes, the source is obviously biased, but the statistics were taken from the FBI's data.


I don't understand where the writers got the information they used to make their pie graph...on their source (it says to scroll to the bottom of the USA government website which is linked), the final 10 years are almost all from animal rights or Earth Liberation groups. They don't seem that latino to me, which is the overwhelming majority on the graph. Also, a lot has changed since the data collected--it stops at 2005, when this stuff of heightened security levels was just getting warmed up, IMO. The only latino attacks I could find were bombings from the 80s.

The proportions seem in order - the group 'Omega 7' and any groups that have 'Boricua' in their names are Latino ones. But I see your point on the time frame.


It also doesn't show that these left wing and latino groups attacked any planes, just bombings in general, which I don't think have caused big ups in security as much as airport threats have. As far as I understand, Al Qaida has been the big one targeting planes (wasn't the shoe bomber affiliated with them?). I bring this up because I think this whole conversation stemmed from airport security, and that's the place that would make me feel that the terrorists "won." I've never heard of a leftist or latino group hijacking a US plane in recent years.

Communists have had a history of hijacking planes and demanding that they be taken to Cuba.


The position that all profiling is solely based on race is easy to assert, but impossible to prove. Equivocation is the staple of PC.

Yes, you're right. I was too quick to jump to that conclusion without really doing any research. I'm sorry that I derailed the thread (but I guess somebody has to do it).

Back on the original topic though, terrorism is a means, not an end. Terrorists don't kill just for the sake of killing - they do it because they think it will weaken or destroy those who they perceive to be enemies. Considering that the American government is seized with paranoia to this extent, I'd say they've won, at least to some extent.

[RockyNomad]

How dare you people say such things about the TSA. You are talking about a high speed organization with personnel that have arrest powers and carry guns so they can properly protect the passengers. Oh, wait.........

[Confilo]

Ahah!!!

I get to call

GODWINS LAW

Seriously - I know it was not your intent, but the way it is posted makes it appear that you are comparing what the Israeli Security Forces do with Nazi Germany.

I'll say this ONE LAST TIME

Lay off the racism theme.

You are right it was not my intent, it is just that it seemed to me that there can be such a thing as selected profiling and perhaps I misinterpreted.
I will not bring it up again but it is hard to talk about profiling without thinking of racial prejudice. Let's not forget that the road to hell is filled with good intentions
done with it

[luvmysuper]

You are right it was not my intent, it is just that it seemed to me that there can be such a thing as selected profiling and perhaps I misinterpreted.
I will not bring it up again but it is hard to talk about profiling without thinking of racial prejudice. Let's not forget that the road to hell is filled with good intentions
done with it

I agree sir!

I think that when someone hears the term "profiling" it's just assumed that "racial" is the prefix that is just silent.
Effective profiling means so much more than looking at someone because of where they were born.
It takes highly trained, dedicated and earnest people to effectively profile based on destination, behavior, characteristics and mannerisms.
Any idiot can can profile based on skin color.
We should support those that do the former, and shun those that do the latter.
The TSA isn't a highly trained, skilled force, and as a result we get one treatment for everyone, regardless of whether they may actually be a threat or not.
It's ever so much easier to place the cost of this lack of training on the consumer (you and I) in terms of travel delays and minor humiliations than it is to spend it outright on effective training for the TSA.

[bamafan64]

Shoe bomber: 28 year old British guy with a white mother and black father
Individual who flew a plane into the IRS building: Middle-aged white guy from texas
Underwear bomber: 23 year old black kid from Nigeria

Which one of those fits your racial profile?

Political correctness has nothing to do with this. Singling out a person of a particular race because they or their ancestors are from roughly the same 8,000,000 square mile neighborhood where some jerks are from isn't a defensible security policy; it's racist.



I never said that we should only search and scrutinize only one race or religion. I am saying that there have been numerous reports of elderly, children, etc. being searched while Middle Easterners have been waved through. A likely cause of that is the security people being afraid to search them due to being worried about accusations of racism, and this is a result of political correctness. The 9-11 hijackers ALL fit in one demographic-Arabic muslims. It is insanity to believe that from this point forward no more Arabic muslims will attempt an act of terrorism aboard an aircraft.

[davros]

... there have been numerous reports of elderly, children, etc. being searched while Middle Easterners have been waved through. A likely cause of that is...

Um, a more likely cause is surely just that most people who travel aren't searched?

TSA people make some apparently daft decisions based on rather arbitrary criteria, sure. TSA people don't give all Arab travellers the third-degree, sure. If both these things are true, and if they happen to occurr at the same time, they'll result in episodes like the anecdotes in the thread.

[scottish steve]

when it comes down to it, there's no way to get it right all the time and air-travel has become a pain in the behind. stupid things will happen and planes will still crash. Imagine having to do that job? I used to be an emergency Operator and I heard some very trying things. I knew I'd changed more than I wanted to when I was in the middle of telling a joke once and a girl came on the line, actually in the process of being badly beaten up....screaming and begging for help. I put her throughto the police, switched off my mic and told the punchline. everybody laughed and I let the call go without a moment's thought. A few minutes later i realised what i'd done. It didn't feel good at all.
A Dutch guy almost didn't let me on the plane because I'd SHAVED! I had a full goatee in my photo and was clean-shaven at the airport. I asked him to look into my eyes and we stared at each other for about 10 seconds, then he let me on.

[RF1963]

With all the negative publicity relating to overzealous security officials at American airports I will never fly to or through the United States. I appreciate that the loss of my custom won't make a dent in the American economy but I refuse to accept being treated as a criminal simply because I travel. The fact that a Government, through it's agents, is able to treat it's people in this fashion is testament to the victory the terrorists have achieved.

[luvmysuper]

Yes, I personally saw top secret footage of the minions of Bin Laden celebrating in the streets over the success of preventing a few disgruntled people from flying due to inconvenience.

What a Victory for the Terrorists, it's simply heartbreaking.

[The Nid Hog]

With all the negative publicity relating to overzealous security officials at American airports I will never fly to or through the United States. I appreciate that the loss of my custom won't make a dent in the American economy but I refuse to accept being treated as a criminal simply because I travel. The fact that a Government, through it's agents, is able to treat it's people in this fashion is testament to the victory the terrorists have achieved.

Oh don't be like that. Come on up--we'd love to have you.

[scottish steve]

A friend of a friend had a child in an American boarding school. When she reached JFK she was told she'd visited too many times and it was suspicious. They refused to call the school to verify anything and held her until the next outbound flight. I for one have very little interest in flying again to the US and will be visiting Canada if I want to experience North American culture.

[luvmysuper]

A friend of a friend had a child in an American boarding school. When she reached JFK she was told she'd visited too many times and it was suspicious. They refused to call the school to verify anything and held her until the next outbound flight. I for one have very little interest in flying again to the US and will be visiting Canada if I want to experience North American culture.

You do realize that the people who dealt with this "friend of a friend" was U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and NOT Transportation Security Administration, right?

ICE cannot operate outside the boundaries of what is legally their charter. If someone was held, detained, or turned away from entering the country, then it was legal to do so.

Nevertheless, it is the Transportation Security Administration that is responsible for Airport Security Screenings such as is done for people entering the Airport for the intent of boarding a plane for travel, Internationally and Domestically.

Both Departments (along with several others) are under the Department of Homeland Security, but they are totally separate entities.

[rajagra]

If someone was held, detained, or turned away from entering the country, then it was legal to do so.
The U.S. has been quick to condemn governments' actions in places like Syria, Egypt and Lybia that were also 100% legal within those nations.
It seems unable to comprehend that it's own country is also starting to look like a very unfriendly place to visit. (Yes, a huge difference in scale of the problem, but you implied legal=OK and nothing to worry about.)
I too have lost all interest in visiting the U.S. And yes, I know the U.S. doesn't give a rat's about that.

[Doc4]

A Dutch guy almost didn't let me on the plane because I'd SHAVED! I had a full goatee in my photo and was clean-shaven at the airport. I asked him to look into my eyes and we stared at each other for about 10 seconds, then he let me on.
Wrong ... you shaved off your Van Dyck beard ... which understandably offended the Dutchman. (As an asside, this would also be professional suicide for anyone attempting to teach in a Dutch-run school in China. Just sayin' ... )

I for one have very little interest in flying again to the US and will be visiting Canada if I want to experience North American culture.

... we have culture now? :w00t:

[luvmysuper]

Somehow we have wandered from Airport Security screenings to a few folks who, for whatever bizarre reason, can't resist making it known they don't want to visit the US. :confused1 :confused1
That's fine, vacation, work or visit where you please. What's that got to do with Airport Security?
At least make some attempt to stay on topic.

[instpasr]

we have culture now? :w00t:

:lol::lol::lol:

That's just to funny. Sorry Bro don't you know that North America has no culture.

[DavyRay]

We need some better methods. How about this:

We give travelers a choice. Two kinds of airplane travel.
Modern Class is like the current USA / TSA radiation scan, cavity search, feel-up, etc.
Traditional Class allows pocket knives and fingernail clippers in carry-on, and involves no personal searches.

If you are on a Traditional Class flight, you just take your chances. The flight crew have ejector seats. The passenger compartment is not connected at all to the flight deck.

[Obsessed]

Somehow we have wandered from Airport Security screenings to a few folks who, for whatever bizarre reason, can't resist making it known they don't want to visit the US. :confused1 :confused1
That's fine, vacation, work or visit where you please. What's that got to do with Airport Security?

Isn't it obvious? They tell us they're not coming, so we let our guard down. But the joke's on us, because we don't actually know who they are. So when it they show up here using their real names, they can walk right onto any flight they want with DE blades in their carry-on luggage. A dastardly and nefarious plot.

[rajagra]

Somehow we have wandered from Airport Security screenings to a few folks who, for whatever bizarre reason, can't resist making it known they don't want to visit the US. :confused1 :confused1
That's fine, vacation, work or visit where you please. What's that got to do with Airport Security?
At least make some attempt to stay on topic.
See thread title, please.

[The Nid Hog]

We need some better methods. How about this:

We give travelers a choice. Two kinds of airplane travel.
Modern Class is like the current USA / TSA radiation scan, cavity search, feel-up, etc.
Traditional Class allows pocket knives and fingernail clippers in carry-on, and involves no personal searches.

If you are on a Traditional Class flight, you just take your chances. The flight crew have ejector seats. The passenger compartment is not connected at all to the flight deck.

Maybe Traditional Class could use towed gliders like in "A Bridge Too Far." Any problem and the crew up in the security cleared plane could just cut the tow line and let the unchecked passengers sort it out on the way down.

[RF1963]

Somehow we have wandered from Airport Security screenings to a few folks who, for whatever bizarre reason, can't resist making it known they don't want to visit the US. :confused1 :confused1
That's fine, vacation, work or visit where you please. What's that got to do with Airport Security?
At least make some attempt to stay on topic.

The reason for not wanting to visit the USA is because of the over zealous behaviour of branches of the Department of Homeland Security at your borders. This behaviour is justified as being part of the "war on terror" (as an aside I notice that the practical support for the IRA in Boston didn't qualify for inclusion in this war). I am not a terrorist, never have been and don't think it particularly likely to happen in the future. Nor am I a criminal. I'm not prepared to go to a country where the de facto treatment is to be treated as a suspected terrorist. The fact that many Americans seem prepared to accept this treatment, this incursion into their civil liberties, is a victory for the terrorists.

My reason for not wanting to visit America is perfectly sound, the fact that the American people tolerate the behaviour of the TSA and the prospect of this behaviour extending into rail and bus travel (as indicated in a previous post) is truly bizarre.

(oh, victory isn't always signified by distasteful displays of public gloating)

[instpasr]

The reason for not wanting to visit the USA is because of the over zealous behaviour of branches of the Department of Homeland Security at your borders. This behaviour is justified as being part of the "war on terror" (as an aside I notice that the practical support for the IRA in Boston didn't qualify for inclusion in this war). I am not a terrorist, never have been and don't think it particularly likely to happen in the future. Nor am I a criminal. I'm not prepared to go to a country where the de facto treatment is to be treated as a suspected terrorist. The fact that many Americans seem prepared to accept this treatment, this incursion into their civil liberties, is a victory for the terrorists.

My reason for not wanting to visit America is perfectly sound, the fact that the American people tolerate the behaviour of the TSA and the prospect of this behaviour extending into rail and bus travel (as indicated in a previous post) is truly bizarre.

Some people tolerate it while others are trying to make common sense changes to what the TSA does. Please don't let what the media reports about a few over the top incidents keep you from visiting our beautiful country. I, like a lot of members here fly all time time with no problems.

[RF1963]

Some people tolerate it while others are trying to make common sense changes to what the TSA does. Please don't let what the media reports about a few over the top incidents keep you from visiting our beautiful country. I, like a lot of members here fly all time time with no problems.

A fair and considered response, thank you. Perhaps one day when I visit, it will be to include a B&B convention.

[luvmysuper]

See thread title, please.

Read the very first post please.
You don't actually think the titles of threads here are all encompassing of the actual intent of the OP, do you? :lol:

I'm not going to mince the nuances of someones thread title with you.


The reason for not wanting to visit the USA is because of the over zealous behaviour of branches of the Department of Homeland Security at your borders. This behaviour is justified as being part of the "war on terror" (as an aside I notice that the practical support for the IRA in Boston didn't qualify for inclusion in this war). I am not a terrorist, never have been and don't think it particularly likely to happen in the future. Nor am I a criminal. I'm not prepared to go to a country where the de facto treatment is to be treated as a suspected terrorist. The fact that many Americans seem prepared to accept this treatment, this incursion into their civil liberties, is a victory for the terrorists.

I understand your reasoning, and have absolutely no issue with the thought process behind it. I personally don't agree with the part about the Terrorists Winning, (which I have had issue with since the OP).
I suppose in the long run, whether or not it is a small stage victory for them comes down to a matter of opinion, we can't actually ask a terrorist "Did you guys win?" Yep as a result of Terrorism there is some downright goofy security rules at airports. Yep, we've managed to nab a goofy underwear or shoe bomber here or there. Dependant upon your perspective, one may consider these small victories in the overall scheme, but small victories on either side doesn't mean the overall battle is lost or won, and that is my issue with a broad statement such as "The Terrorists Have Won".
If the Terrorists have already won, why are they still going at it?
No, I don't think ANYONE has won.

[miamimoe]

I suppose in the long run, whether or not it is a small stage victory for them comes down to a matter of opinion, we can't actually ask a terrorist "Did you guys win?" Yep as a result of Terrorism there is some downright goofy security rules at airports. Yep, we've managed to nab a goofy underwear or shoe bomber here or there. Dependant upon your perspective, one may consider these small victories in the overall scheme, but small victories on either side doesn't mean the overall battle is lost or won, and that is my issue with a broad statement such as "The Terrorists Have Won".
If the Terrorists have already won, why are they still going at it? No, I don't think ANYONE has won.

I think that you have isolated the problem. In today's new world, it is next to impossible to crown a victor or name a loser. So many of the conflicts today are not between standing armies, but rather by groups of insurgents, terrorists, guerillas, whatever you call them, that the idea that there is some sort of "victory" as was the case in WWII, seems rather far fetched. I remember reading a retired CIA officer's article somewhere where he predicted that this going to go on for a long, long time.

[Confilo]

I was born in a country with a history of Dictators and terrorism. My maternal grandfather was killed by a terrorist bomb brought to him in a pastry box and delivered by a child before I was even born. A few coup d'etats later, a revolution on which acts of terrorism were common to get the governing Dictator out of power.
What I learned is that when terrorists win they become extremely totalitarian regimes to avoid what else: terrorism against their rule of power.
WE need to be vigilant in two ways, to keep the terrorists from doing their misdeeds against innocent citizens and vigilant that we do not become like them.

[franz]

WE need to be vigilant in two ways, to keep the terrorists from doing their misdeeds against innocent citizens and vigilant that we do not become like them.

Well said.

[Doc4]

Worth watching: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2009-2010/fasten_your_seatbelts/

It's a documentary from the CBC, exposing how poor airport security is. :crying:

[DavyRay]

Phil,

Could you please put a question mark at the end of the title to this thread?

I'd prefer it to read "The Terrorists Won?".

I still believe that our reactions to these threats are not smart, and demean the dignity of our people. I want us to be brave, and to not act like goons in reaction.

[_JP_]

I have flown many times in the past decade and never felt treated as a terrorist. I go though the checkpoints and that's it. Pretty quick except for a possible wait in line.

You have to go through a metal detector and bag search to get into Disney World! The reason again is public safety, and nobody seems to up in arms about that.


when it comes down to it, there's no way to get it right all the time and air-travel has become a pain in the behind. stupid things will happen and planes will still crash. Imagine having to do that job? I used to be an emergency Operator and I heard some very trying things. I knew I'd changed more than I wanted to when I was in the middle of telling a joke once and a girl came on the line, actually in the process of being badly beaten up....screaming and begging for help. I put her throughto the police, switched off my mic and told the punchline. everybody laughed and I let the call go without a moment's thought. A few minutes later i realised what i'd done. It didn't feel good at all.
A Dutch guy almost didn't let me on the plane because I'd SHAVED! I had a full goatee in my photo and was clean-shaven at the airport. I asked him to look into my eyes and we stared at each other for about 10 seconds, then he let me on.

[ouch]

My quips to the flight attendant of "May I please have six unopened cans of coke and a pillowcase" don't get the laughs they used to.

We've all lost our sense of humor. They even seem annoyed when I call them "waitress".

[rajagra]

Read the very first post please.
Okay. The very first post says, in reference to U.S. air travel: "I ain't getting on a plane if I have any other choice."
I posted words to the effect of: I ain't getting on a plane to the U.S. if I have any other choice.
And you're accusing me of being wildly off topic?
Remarkable.

[luvmysuper]

Okay. The very first post says, in reference to U.S. air travel: "I ain't getting on a plane if I have any other choice."
I posted words to the effect of: I ain't getting on a plane to the U.S. if I have any other choice.
And you're accusing me of being wildly off topic?
Remarkable.

I don't recall saying wildly, but thanks for getting back on topic.
It's appreciated. :thumbup1: