Questions about Method Shaving

[Steerpike]

OK, I only read a little about this, because all the obtuse and flowery language puts me off, besides taking ages to decipher.

But my understanding is that instead of having a soap, which contains a vegetable or animal fat soap base, and some ingredients to make the lather thicker and longer lasting, in Method Shaving, you have a vegetable soap, and a separate mix of the ingredients to improve the lather. Is there actually a reason for this, or is it just to get you to buy two products by chopping one in half?

Also, after reading all the rants about the evils of shave oil, it seems to me that the "cutting balm" is in fact basically a shave oil- is this the case, or have I got the wrong end of the (shave) stick?

[mantic]

This video might help answer some of your questions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSv_0MpKJU4

Cutting balm is an oil but not meant to be used until the very end of the shave to get those little bits of stubble left (unlike "shave oil" which is supposed to replace shaving cream for the entire shave).

--Mark

[gse123]

method shaving just seems very gimmicky to me.

[Brad]

However it may seem, the results make it worth giving it a try IMHO. My skin has never been in better shape.

Brad

[Magnulus]

method shaving just seems very gimmicky to me.


Mantic's comparison of Method Shaving to a martial art in its rigidity is spot on, maybe in a way he didn't intend.

I have read a little of Charles Roberts stuff... rather arcane, some of it very dogmatic. Very much in line with what you'll find in many martial arts.

I was a martial artist myself. I studied Korean Tang Soo Do (basicly Korean Shotokan) as a kid, Tai Chi as an older teenager, and later Jeet Kune Do privately/ semi-publicly with a teacher for about a year, before financial circumstances forced his school to close. I really enjoyed studying Tai Chi but JKD had a great influence on me.

Jeet Kune Do, in case you didn't know, is the martial art assosciated with Bruce Lee. It is dogmatic in being anti-dogmatic, and heavily influenced by 1960's college-campus thingking, particularly the writings of Indian ex-Theosophist-Messiah Jiddu Krishnamurti and Kahlil Gibran. In practical terms JKD and Bruce Lee's philosophy were based on exploration, empiricism (use only what works), and economy of motion (use the smallest movements or techniques possible and the shortest, effective paths- in RL sparring and practice Bruce Lee did not favor kicking high, flying kicks, and he did not use his famous catlike wailing). There are various drills to do, of course, but theer are not held as dogmaticly as other martial arts- there are no forms per se, and the drills are a means to an end. Later in his short life Bruce Lee even renounced doing drills and focused more on exploring other martial arts, such as Filipino martial arts or wrestling.

So back to method shaving. It obviously works for some people. But it seems very regimented and arcane, and how many of the assertions are based on empiricism? To quote:

"It is helpful to remember that beard hair, as with every other form, becomes increasingly elastic as it is infused with higher volumes of water. This means that hair stretches much farther when loaded with water than it does when in a dry state. This fact explains why it is possible to "dry cut" a light beard with a multi-track razor in a way that would never be possible with a single track. Not surprinsingly, therefore, adding water to the action of a multi-track blade only increases the likelihood of ingrown hair."

I've never found using alot of water (hydrated whiskers) makes ingrown hairs more likely with a multi-blade razor. Quite the opposite. I'm sure method shaving has many good insights and knowledge, and 3-5 blade razors may indeed be more marketting hype and "fast-food" shaving, but this assertions (water can cause ingrown hairs) strikes me as tentative to say the least

[ouch]

Charles Roberts is the Ken Burns of shaving. He can do an 18 hour documentary on dry cleaning.

[Brad]

It was my understanding that cutting the whiskers off below the skin due to the multi blade "lift and cut" was the culprit. I do not profess to be an expert on Charles' writing, but I do not recall seeing that water causes ingrown hairs. Water is essential to the method shaving system, so I think you are missing something.

Brad

[Magnulus]

I've been reading some on method shaving, and as an outsider it appears to me method shaving is basicly akin to "superlather" that some people do with brushes. The cube is basicly a shaving soap, the paste is basicly shaving cream, "cutting balm" is basicly shaving oil and they are combined togther in different amounts according to the method. The shaving products and techniques in the method are created based around a particular idea about how shaving should work- lots of water, few ingredients, no petroleum ingredients or synthesized chemicals, very sharp blades, fast shaving aiming for progressive reduction.

The specialized terminology may seem like mystical mumbo jumbo but it's really just a specialized jargon to talk about techniques in a technical manner. Sort of like a martial art or sport has its own jargon. In fact I think the martial arts comparison is again apt because most martial arts were not developed in a purely/rigidly scientific manner (breaking problems down into smaller problems, analyzing the smaller problems and then re-assmbling the small solutions into a "macro-solution"), so too I get that feeling from method shaving. In many marital arts they emerged from some monk imitating nature to obtain the powers of a particular animal or philosophical concept, and the monk/kung fu fighter would then explain their techniques in terms of the chosen animals or philosophical concepts. I think the same is true of method shaving. In order to understand it, you probably have to immerse yourself within it to a certain extent and as an outsider you can't fully grasp it.

Sounds sort of like Scientology or Amway, doesn't it? I think that's the big "gotcha" for many people. If Charles Roberts could explain his techniques in plainer language and maybe do a double blind study, maybe more people would be able to buy into it. Most people are used to "Brand A is better than Brand B laundry detergent, and our tests prove it", not learning a whole new vocabulary for describing laundry detergent. Still, I think this kind of approach does deserve some credit because once you buy into it, it creates a coherent framework for peolpe to use. But it can be off-putting to outsiders. Lets face it, traditional shaving is rather confusing and there is very little agreement on the how or why of anything (other than a few basics like hot water is good, brushes are generally good, single blades are better than multi-blades, etc.), , and very few rationalizations for why things are done other than tradition- but that's true of many, many things in life.

Sure, there is some science behind behind traditional shaving- we know why wet hair cuts better than dry hair, shaving creame and soap are both technically emulsions of water that stick to the skin. But very little of this has been put together into a coherent system. Gilette and Schick will claim otherwise, of course, but their products are not really designed to be used as a coherent system with any particular fundamental techniques- they base their products off marketting surveys, samples, and observations of shaving techniques from paid volunteers without regard to any particular skill level (eg, some may shave badly, starting against the grain, making multiple dry passes but the designers don't care, in fact they factor that into the design). To me that's not a "system" because there is no fundamental groundwork, just pure empiricism, trial and error. Eventually you end up with semi-trained monkeys banging on keyboards. Eventually they will churn out Shakespeare but it will be a long wait.

[Xert]

Charles Roberts is the Ken Burns of shaving. He can do an 18 hour documentary on dry cleaning.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Brad]

The specialized terminology may seem like mystical mumbo jumbo but it's really just a specialized jargon to talk about techniques in a technical manner. Sort of like a martial art or sport has its own jargon.

I find that while reading his writing is difficult, if you visit his store or talk to him over the phone, you will get a simplified version. Charles is attempting to develop a system, intended to work together to get the desired result. I think he has succeeded, much in the same way that AOS or the three T's. He continues to refine and test new products, many of which you can only get to try by visiting him at the store. While many people are put off by his writing, I have heard very few people (if any) who have tried the products and are not satisfied. Give it a shot. It takes some getting used to, but even if you do not make a trip here to Austin, many people have had extensive conversations with Charles over the phone. I personally enjoy the visit when I get low on Hydrolast products. Set aside an hour or so though, of you have the time, CAR loves to chat about his vision and where he is trying to go. I have found this to be very interesting.

Brad

[Magnulus]

We've got a CAR shop selling shaving stuff in one of the downtowns in Orlando. Maybe I will check it out one of these days.

[michaelskar]

strictly going by what I have read (I haven't tried this), the method shaving is not very fun but very very effective.

[Kyle]

We've got a CAR shop selling shaving stuff in one of the downtowns in Orlando. Maybe I will check it out one of these days.

It's not the same stuff. Unless Charles has recently branched out, there is only one location from which you can purchase Hydrolast products, and it is located in Austin, TX.

[mantic]

We've got a CAR shop selling shaving stuff in one of the downtowns in Orlando. Maybe I will check it out one of these days.
The place in Orlando is Carr's, not CAR. Two different places. :wink:

--Mark

[Brad]

Sorry, CAR is Charles Robert's of Enchante here in Austin. CAR is just a simple abbreviation. Sorry for the confusion. If you are thinking about method shaving, you owe it to yourself to call Enchante and talk to Charles about any questions you have. He is much clearer in person than in his writing. He is also not high pressure at all on selling. His passion for what he does is clearer than his writing, but you will learn a ton, then his writing will also make more sense.

Brad

[msandoval858]

Even if you skip all of Charles' writing and decide not to adhere to the cutting forms he recommends, the products still hold their own. The forms and techniques that make up the Method are great for someone who is new to DE and has no idea where to start and I highly recommend them for that. If you are an experienced DE shaver, Hydrolast will turn out great shaves no matter how you cut it. I routinely shave using Hydrolast with a straight razor and get fantastic results. If I'm in a hurry I can put a Feather in the DE and fly through the cutting forms and a few finishing touchups and I'm out there door in 10 min.