Is more aggressive more advanced?

[BlackBard]

A comment from martiniduck in another thread, relating to aggressive vs mild razors, brought to mind a theme that runs through many similar discussions - the notion of “graduating” from mild to aggressive razors or blades. You can see his post here. (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=209723#post3157725)

I have always believed that whatever works best is the right choice, but the notion persists that the hierarchy of aggressiveness suggests a hierarchy of expertise. What do you think?

[wulfgar1976]

A comment from martiniduck in another thread, relating to aggressive vs mild razors, brought to mind a theme that runs through many similar discussions - the notion of “graduating” from mild to aggressive razors or blades. You can see his post here. (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=209723#post3157725)

I have always believed that whatever works best is the right choice, but the notion persists that the hierarchy of aggressiveness suggests a hierarchy of expertise. What do you think?

Speaking for myself, I graduated by moving away from aggressive razors to using milder razors with better technique. I get the closest results with open comb razors (which I have never considered to be aggressive) but I enjoy using a Super Speed or an early Tech too.

[jeffpofutah]

I'm still somewhat of a newby to DE shaving - YMMV, etc.

I have a variety of razors - old type, The New, several slims, a Merkur HD - and a variety of blades - Feathers, Astra, 7 O'Clocks, Wilks, Sharks, etc....

I've decided that the BBS shave isn't the true goal for me. In fact, BBS might be myth - see Topgumby's reply here: Just what is BBS (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=208274&highlight=baby+badger+bottom)

Yes, I love it when I get a really close shave but I love it more when I get a really comfortable shave without nicks and weepers. I am more for comfortable first then close second. I'm happy with a CCS or better yet a DFS but will take a SAS that is cool and comfortable than a BBS with razor burn.

All this said, I use my Slims on a milder setting - 3 - and get a CCS or DFS that is very comfortable. My open comb The New is much more aggressive. I can get a very close shave with it but I really have to watch my technique A LOT or I get nicks, weepers and razor burn.

To me, aggressive isn't more advanced per se. It depends on whether CLOSE is your goal or COMFORT is what you are striving for.

[Roobaix]

I to believe whatever works best is what a person should use.

I have found that over the years of my shaving evolving that I have gravitated towards what a lot of people would call an aggressive razor and blade combo. A slant and a feather. I don't claim to have an advanced expert technique, but I find that it gives me a DFS shave with the least amount of irritation.

I do still rotate with other combos, a Slim, Aristocrat, Fatboy, Mergress, Vision...all with different blades, but I like the slant/feather the best right now. That might all change in a few months though...

[MarkStar]

A comment from martiniduck in another thread, relating to aggressive vs mild razors, brought to mind a theme that runs through many similar discussions - the notion of “graduating” from mild to aggressive razors or blades. You can see his post here. (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=209723#post3157725)

I have always believed that whatever works best is the right choice, but the notion persists that the hierarchy of aggressiveness suggests a hierarchy of expertise. What do you think?
Everybody knows that if you're not using a slant with a Feather then you're just a shaving poseur... Sheesh...:001_tt2:

[michiganlover]

In terms of the whole graduating to the more aggressive razors, perhaps it is helpful to realize that for much of the existence of the Gillette DE razor an adjustable didn't exist. I imagine the men of yesteryear were getting along just fine with their Superspeeds, News, Techs, and the like none of which adjusted.

In my opinion one of the best shaving DE razors (the Feather All Stainless) is also said to be one of the mildest; but I still get a great shave in two passes (WTG, and XTG).

So aggressive razors, yeah you can keep them. :tongue_sm

[takeshi]

Preference, as are most things around here. That's why "YMMV" is so ubiquitous.

[The Chandos]

I haven't seen any of the threads linked above nor do I intend to (to save any bias on my following comment, I'll go look at them after this post) but my understanding of "aggressive" was best applied to the type of growth one had. For example, tough beards might require a more aggressive razor. I also had the impression that less aggressive razors were simply more forgiving for those of us with a lack of technique. Thus, with better technique, you could actually graduate to a more aggressive razor and not butcher your face and neck but for those with certain beard types, a more aggressive razor might actually help attain that technique. (My impressions only, certainly not the law, but look forward to other comments.)

[ackvil]

I have always believed that whatever works best is the right choice, but the notion persists that the hierarchy of aggressiveness suggests a hierarchy of expertise. What do you think?

I think you have nailed it.

When I returned to shaving some time ago (see here) (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=209316) I thought the way to go was to dial up my FB or Slim to the highest setting and go for it. Of course, irritation followed.

For me the object is to get the closest, smoothest BBS shave possible. If I can do this with a mild razor, great. So my theory is to use the mildest razor possible and still get a BBS shave.

I would rather do my usual four pass shave with a less aggressive razor and get a BBS shave with no irritation, nicks, or cuts than do a two pass shave with an aggressive razor and have irritation, nicks, or cuts.

I have gotten a number of PMs from new DE shavers who tell me that when they have a problem with irritation when they use an adjustable razor because they say they have sensitive skin. When I tell them to dial down to the lowest setting and work their way up GRADUALLY many say their problem disappears. :wink2:

[franz]

Seems to me that from a functional standpoint you have more control over the blade angle when there's greater blade exposure. That doesn't necessarily translate to a better shave even if your technique is excellent. That's YMMV territory.

I think of straights (note: I am not a straights user) as having infinite "blade exposure" and hence offering the greatest control over what the cutting edge is doing.

Jim is spot on. Nobody should be cranking up their Slim or Fatboy to 9 as a new wetshaver simply because that's what you're "supposed to do" or because it's macho. I've been DE shaving for a year (a blink of the eye compared to some of you :wink:) and I've settled on a middle of the road blade exposure as the ideal for my skin type and beard.

[Go West Young Man]

A milder razor is safer to learn on, but that doesn't mean you HAVE to move on to something else.

[Den]

I started off with mild DEs like the Tech and SS, then moved on to more aggressive DEs, and quickly came back to mild. Good prep, technique and blade can make a mild razor shine. :001_smile

[inspiringK]

A milder razor is safer to learn on, but that doesn't mean you HAVE to move on to something else.

When you first start out, using an aggressive razor may leave your face in shreds:w00t:

Newer users get less nicks and irritation from mild razors, so benefit most from using these to experiment with.
More experienced users are able to get nick-free shaves from both aggressive and mild razors - then they can decide which works best for them.

[Alraz]

Work on your technique and you will be in a better position to choose between mild or aggressive. In the meantime, you may want to stay mild. It is all about technique.

Al raz.

[Sir Walter of Mount Royal]

Aggressive razors scare beginners. They shave with apprehension. And the razor gets blamed for all mishaps.

With experience, the shaver knows better which type of tool suits his natural tendencies. Some turn to more aggressive razors, others chose milder ones.

[Pbalkan]

I was the one who started that other post.

The post originally asked what "aggressive" really means to shaving?

I would imagine that this debate has been going on since the very introduction of the safety razor which limited the angle and exposure of the blade.... and presumably the damage that it could do.

Just because a straight-razor user CAN sever his jugular doesn't mean he HAS to, or wants to....

My experience was 4 days shaving with a Silver flair-tip that I grabbed before a trip. I was disappointed and annoyed that I wasn't able to get the shave I wanted without holding it at an unnatural angle and/or applying pressure. I paid the price for both.

When I returned home, I gave the Slant a try and I've been pleased that the razor allows me some control over angle and that my skills have advanced to the stage where I can do it. I must admit that I'm a bit more proficient at controlling the blade angle than I would be at applying pressure... so it's a good "next step" for a newbie transitioning to intermediate.

I may very well reach a point where a particular razor just suits me and I am satisfied with a great shave with no surprises, either way.

But right now, quite honestly, I'm pleased with my progress and interested in what might lie ahead. There's SE and straights as well (I even bought a Rolls Razor) and I see no reason why I shouldn't try them all and see how far I can develop my shaving skills.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I was getting more irritation from trying to make a mild razor "work" than just doing a couple passes with an aggressive razor---I quickly moved on from mild shavers because they just don't work for me.

[DVM2012]

To put it simply, I think improved technique allows a user to use a more aggressive razor safely. An aggressive razor is not necessarily going to lead to a better shave (i.e. closer and irritation-free), but improved technique will likely prevent you from doing real damage to your face. All I can say is: YMMV. Personally, I love a mild razor (Tech, Slim at 2) for everyday shaving and an aggressive razor (Futur at 3, Slim at 8 or 9) for times when I may have a couple days' extra growth.

[Sir Walter of Mount Royal]

i was getting more irritation from trying to make a mild razor "work" than just doing a couple passes with an aggressive razor

+1

[rupertbear]

I have always believed that whatever works best is the right choice, but the notion persists that the hierarchy of aggressiveness suggests a hierarchy of expertise. What do you think?

I have a tough beard but an onion-skin neck. I can shave with with either a mild or an aggressive razor and get a good shave, but if I want a comfortable shave, I know I better use a mild razor. My normal set-up is with adjustables set on 3 or my flare-tip. There are so many different razors because everybody's skin is different.

[GDCarrington]

The most aggressive razor can be mastered if you develop your techinque and more importantly if your skin can tolerate it.

The least aggressive razor can be mastered if you develop your techinque and take your time with more passes.

We discuss hardware (razors, blades, brushes) and software (creams, soaps, A/S, lotions) but in reality the most important item in shaving is and always will be the skin that is being shaved!

Let's not overlook that everyone has different skin to a certain extent and that is the most important determiner of what each individual may or may not be able to use.

[MoJoe]

A year ago I would have said to go aggressive. At the time, I was using a slant with Feathers. Then I had to travel and took my HD with me along with some Astras and Gillette Yellows. The result was similar to my shaves with the slant and no irritation or weepers. So, I've just kept on with a less aggressive kit and I am happy.

[wulfgar1976]

A year ago I would have said to go aggressive. At the time, I was using a slant with Feathers. Then I had to travel and took my HD with me along with some Astras and Gillette Yellows. The result was similar to my shaves with the slant and no irritation or weepers. So, I've just kept on with a less aggressive kit and I am happy.

With the slant and the Eclipse Red Ring, I could get BBS every time but my skin didn't thank me for it. I prefer the irritation-free shaves I get every time with a Super Speed.

[Slivovitz]

Now that I have a large selection of razors, and no present intention to get more, I've stopped even thinking in terms of aggressiveness. I have a pretty good idea of what to expect from different razors, and how to adjust my technique to get the best results with each. The only time I take aggressiveness into account is when answering a "Newbie here, what should I try?" question, and even then I try to answer more in terms of ease of use.

Part of the fascination with aggressiveness may be that people want to prove their "manliness", by apparently courting danger. That's part of the common perception of straight razors, at least by people who haven't used them. Even some of the safety razors we use around here also look dangerous to the uninitiated. I have some very old SE razors that are very gentle and easy to use, but they look scary to somebody who hasn't tried them. More rational sounding reasons, as others have pointed out, are greater control over the shave, and fewer passes needed for a good shave.

I may still try a straight at some point. With the quality of shaves I get from the best SEs and injectors right now, I don't really expect better end results, but you never know.

[Pbalkan]

Now that I have a large selection of razors, and no present intention to get more, I've stopped even thinking in terms of aggressiveness. I have a pretty good idea of what to expect from different razors, and how to adjust my technique to get the best results with each. The only time I take aggressiveness into account is when answering a "Newbie here, what should I try?" question, and even then I try to answer more in terms of ease of use.

Part of the fascination with aggressiveness may be that people want to prove their "manliness", by apparently courting danger. That's part of the common perception of straight razors, at least by people who haven't used them. Even some of the safety razors we use around here also look dangerous to the uninitiated. I have some very old SE razors that are very gentle and easy to use, but they look scary to somebody who hasn't tried them. More rational sounding reasons, as others have pointed out, are greater control over the shave, and fewer passes needed for a good shave.

I may still try a straight at some point. With the quality of shaves I get from the best SEs and injectors right now, I don't really expect better end results, but you never know.

You have to define "manliness" as well as "aggressiveness."

I've had a number of hobbies that are considered "manly;" motorcycles, airplanes, competitive pistol. Some people suggest that I like noise and explosions. To me, manly means taking control of powerful things and taming them... making them perform, precisely and subtlely, to my bidding. Does the race-car driver do it for the noise.... or is he controlling great power with a delicate but firm and precise touch?

Two points. Millions of people shave every day. The don't give a thought to technique, equipment or the "philosophy" of shaving. The people here, on the other hand, spend a good deal of time acquiring skills and equipment... and in discussion of the same. Why? I have two reasons.... pride at being able to master a true skill and... fun.

In retrospect, it seems inevitable that, when ready, I'd try different razors and blades and put my emerging skills to the test for those two reasons... pride and fun!

(If your definition of "manly" is the same as "macho," then I respectfully disagree. I'm too old and shaving is really a lame way to declare yourself "macho.")

[Slivovitz]

You have to define "manliness" as well as "aggressiveness." . . .(If your definition of "manly" is the same as "macho," then I respectfully disagree. I'm too old and shaving is really a lame way to declare yourself "macho.")

My point is not to define manliness for myself. I'm too old (54) to be trying to score man-points, and I'd agree that choice of razor isn't much of a way to do it anyway.

I'm just speculating that for at least some men, seeking out an aggressive safety razor, or better yet, using a straight, is at least partly about courting a macho image. It's not about danger, but about the perception of it. Obviously that won't apply to everybody. If pressed on the matter, we would say that's not it, it's about getting a better shave. That's my story, certainly:001_smile, that and the fascination I have with retro technology.

[Sir Walter of Mount Royal]

Men and tools (http://www.texasescapes.com/Peary-Perry/Men-and-Tools.htm)


You go to any museum in the world today and you will most likely find tools from ancient times being displayed. Not toys, not baby clothes, not greeting cards, but tools.

Men have defied logic for thousands of years and kept tools which have survived the ice age, the industrial age and the rock and roll era as well. Men can throw everything else away except for a tool.

[...]

Men buy tools to be used for projects they will never in this lifetime complete or are qualified to even contemplate.


[...]

One last word of advice to women. Tools and sporting equipment such as fishing and hunting gear are the key connectors to men and their concept of mortality. Once you throw away his baseball glove that hasn't been used in thirty years or clean the garage and sell off those old tools he never uses, you might as well stick a fork in him.

He's done.

[BlackBard]

My point is not to define manliness for myself. I'm too old (54) to be trying to score man-points, and I'd agree that choice of razor isn't much of a way to do it anyway.

I'm just speculating that for at least some men, seeking out an aggressive safety razor, or better yet, using a straight, is at least partly about courting a macho image. It's not about danger, but about the perception of it. Obviously that won't apply to everybody. If pressed on the matter, we would say that's not it, it's about getting a better shave. That's my story, certainly:001_smile, that and the fascination I have with retro technology.

Slivovitz, thank you for expressing your views so clearly. You have made the point I intended to address in my OP.

I have read many posts that refer to "graduating" to a more aggressive razor or sharper blade, as if using a more aggressive razor were a mark of achievement rather than just an individual's choice about which tool was more suitable for him/her.

I have not understood the concept of having a goal of using a sharper blade or more aggressive razor. My goal has always and only been to get the best, most comfortable shave - regardless of the aggressiveness of the razor or sharpness of the blade.

Thanks, also, to everyone who has taken the time to add to the conversation. Your contribution is appreciated.

[bkfist]

Many many years ago I flew model airplanes. Starting out with gentle trainers, progressing to faster and more maneuverable planes, then on to the "pattern" planes that have absolutely no tendency to "correct themselves". The pattern planes are fast, huge power to weight ratio, require constant attention to where they are heading etc. Unless you are on your game, the plane will soon be flying you, rather than you flying the plane.

I was out at the field one day, when an older gentleman, a friend of mine, came out with a big plane he had built many many years ago, huge wing span, lots of lift, in reality more gentle than a beginner's "trainer" plane.

It had this little engine, tiny fuel tank. I watch him prep the plane, taxi out to the end of the field, and roll 3/4 of the way down the field at full throttle before it got up enough speed to take off. By contrast, I could literally take my pattern plane, hold it in my hand, go full throttle and it would climb vertically from my hand.

I just watched as he climbed and climbed with that plane, and after he had it up to a few hundred feet, he throttled back to about 1/4 throttle and continued to fly that plane and a slow, graceful pace for 45 minutes before the fuel ran out. The plane had enough lift and a high enough glide ratio that he continued to circle the track for another 10 minutes before bringing it back to the field as a slow leisurely pace. That thing glided so slow on approach I could have literally ran out into the field, ran along side it and plucked it out of the air. My pattern plane on the other hand had to be brought back in at a screaming pace to keep it from stalling, constantly on the sticks to make sure it was straight and level so as not to crash.

It was then that I realized, yes, I could fly a screaming fast plane that 9 out of 10 people in the flying club could not fly without wrecking the plane in 3 out of 4 flights, but I was not longer ENJOYING the plane. Sure, I could run circles around most of the planes, I could do maneuvers like snap-rolls, flat spins and such in rapid succession climb almost out of sight in a minute, but I wasn't really enjoying the flying like I did when i first started.

I decided then that I was going to put together a nice, simple plane with quality workmanship that would last for years and years like the big old yellow plane he was flying and start to ENJOY myself again.

My shaving is a bit like this. (More so years ago with my straights.) I was able to master the BBS shave with the straight, no nicks, usually no irritation, but it was a lot of work to get that last 5%, which always ran the risk of a little bit of irritation. With DE shaving, I've found that with a non-aggressive razor and a good blade, I could get a BBS shave if i worked at it, or a DFS easily and nearly 100% of the time. With an aggressive razor, it was quicker and easier to get a 100% BBS shave, but almost always with some irritation or some ingrown hairs.

It is rare that I feel like trying for an absolutely 100% bbs shave, but when i do, I prefer to go the "underpowered" slow climb to that altitude, rather than a super aggressive razor where I can get to the end point in a matter of a few seconds. It's like getting up to altitude with a model plane. i can take off vertical with the pattern plane, and I can get to a BBS shave with an aggressive razor, but I'm having to concentrate constantly on the flight to make sure I'm the one in control and not the one "being flown". On the other hand I can pick a less powerful, forgiving plane, enjoy the flight to altitude, enjoy the experience, and safely make it back to the ground every time without any real danger of crashing and burning. The same goes for me with a less aggressive razor. I might have to make 4 passes and some touch-ups, vs. 2 passes and some touch-ups, but I have learned to enjoy the process more.

(BTW. My first big old plane, the one where I decided to slow it down and enjoy the trip... Maiden flight, had a radio failure on my brand-new Futuba digital radio - apparently a design flaw, others had same problem.. the plane lost contact, the failsafe kicked in, set it for a straight line, and travelled at full throttle for about 5 miles before loosing power. It was coming in nice and straight and looked like it was going to land itself... hit a barbwire fence and shredded itself into pieces... :mad3: )