CCW questions

[Voomie]

I have been interested in getting my CCW but I had some questions. How can you carry you carry your weapon so it is still concealed but does not get in the way. Also have you been in a situation that you needed your CCW? I only ask because I am trying to determine if the times I would need it would outweigh the number of awkward situations.

[aceinyerface]

I carried a full sized Glock 22 in a shoulder holster over a tshirt, under a half unbuttoned oversized Dickies work shirt and was able to do physical labor with minimal printing. My CCW teacher was an ex CIA guy and recommended the set up for sandals, shorts, and hawaiian shirts as well, he carried a 1911 like that. A smaller pistol on a smaller man would reduce printing even more.

Belt carry needs a cover garment. People get "made" a lot with belt carry. The shooting schools make a lot of money teaching belt draw kata, so it is the most popular.

Pocket carry works well for specialized firearms.

Ankle carry requires pants for a cover garment, I find it more of a pain than anything else.

Off body is better than nothing, but I don't like the fact that the firearm is not secured.

[ctkelly]

Never been "made" while belt carrying yet. If you have a good setup, any gun can disappear.

[stobes21]

I carry on my strong side inside the waist band. It very rarely causes problems. My shirt does ride up occasionally, but that is pretty easy to manage.

Fortunately I have never needed to draw my weapon. I hope I never do. Unless you are in a very unusual situation the number of awkward situations will far outweigh the number of times you truly need it. But if you are unlucky you may just find yourself depending on it for your life. That's why I carry every day, everywhere I go (except for the places I am legally prohibited). It isn't convenient, it isn't fun, but it is there if I need it.

[aceinyerface]

Never been "made" while belt carrying yet.

... that you know of.

Criminals are more savvy than they get credit for. If I can spot it, so can they.

http://www.concealedcarryoutfitters.com/PatriotVest.php This kind of stuff only fools soccer moms. Only gay men and CCW holders wear vests.

Wearing a jacket in warm weather, look for the bulge.

Squared away hair and cant see the waistband, look for the bulge.

It works the other way too. You see a thug with a shirt covering his waistband and struggling to hold up his pants, look for the bulge. Jacket in the summer, bet on a gun.

[Deltaboy]

I pocket carry a 38 or I wear it on my waist when I wear a suit or sports coat.

My 40 cal I wear ISW.

[Gravy]

I carry a Sig P239 almost everywhere w/ a galco IWB holster. I tried carrying it strong side w/ a couple different holsters but due to my build (love handles) the grip always pushed out from my waist and was easy to see.

After some experimenting I found that cross-draw worked fine w/ one of my holsters as my gun tucked in towards the front of my belly. I can conceal it under a T-shirt. It's also easier to access while seated/driving. And I can reach it w/ either hand.

When I wear shorts I use "Smart Carry." (smartcarry.com)
It's not as fast to draw from, especially when seated, but it allows me to have a firearm as my shorts usually don't work as well w/ my other holster.

You can read up on suggested holsters but there is a lot of YMMV. Everyone is different and your carry method may be affected by how you dress.
If there was only a way to rent a holster, you really need to wear it for a full day or longer to know if it works.

It took me a 3rd pistol and 5 holsters to find what worked for me.

[Voomie]

Only gay men and CCW holders wear vests.


Say that to a hells angel. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Also what does it mean to be made?

[ackvil]

I carry a Sig P239 almost everywhere w/ a galco IWB holster. I tried carrying it strong side w/ a couple different holsters but due to my build (love handles) the grip always pushed out from my waist and was easy to see.

After some experimenting I found that cross-draw worked fine w/ one of my holsters as my gun tucked in towards the front of my belly. I can conceal it under a T-shirt. It's also easier to access while seated/driving. And I can reach it w/ either hand.

When I wear shorts I use "Smart Carry." (smartcarry.com)
It's not as fast to draw from, especially when seated, but it allows me to have a firearm as my shorts usually don't work as well w/ my other holster.

You can read up on suggested holsters but there is a lot of YMMV. Everyone is different and your carry method may be affected by how you dress.
If there was only a way to rent a holster, you really need to wear it for a full day or longer to know if it works.

It took me a 3rd pistol and 5 holsters to find what worked for me.

Smart carry works great. The only complaint I have about it is if I am driving my auto with it, it becomes uncomfortable.

[MrMurphy]

Inside the waistband. Good gunbelt, untucked shirt. I've only been made due to a chick who went hands-on once unexpectedly.

And i've had federal agents, SWAT cops and others who all knew i carried who couldn't spot it.


Shoulder holsters are discouraged because in some cases you can become disarmed, and they print worse than anything else due to the harness (having made 2 detectives that way....they switched). They're good for drivers and pilots but not everyday.

And yes, I have.

[JCinPA]

Milt Sparks 55BN with a good belt.

All you have to do is be aware of your jacket when outside so it doesn't blow open. I've never had an issue and never use the inside the waistband any more. Confidence comes with experience.

http://www.miltsparks.com/55BN.htm

http://www.miltsparks.com/55BN.htm

[aceinyerface]

Say that to a hells angel. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Also what does it mean to be made?

My Bro in law Ralph (not a HA but he's got colors), I did. He laughed and said "bikers carry, sometimes even legally.":lol:

Made = Identified, that one has a concealed firearm in this case.

[Blue Raccoon]

KelTec P3AT w/Speer Gold Dots in a Nemesis.. front or back pocket of jeans, chinos or shorts.

[ryan020406]

It's a matter of the whole ensamble: weapon, holster, belt, cover garmets, personal preference, body size, ect.

Don't cheap out on a holster or belt. Many people buy an expensive holster and use a cheap belt. A belt that fits the holster properly will make a big difference.

I personally like the don hume products. I generally carry strong side owb with a service model springfield xd. I don't have problems printing, just throw on a button up t-shirt of some sort. A coat, windbreaker, or pull over works well too. For the t-shirt days sob or iwb works great too. I personally am not a fan of the pocket pistols.

You will have to find something that works for you.

Ryan

[bigmo]

Can't say that I've ever been made, I'm probably my own biggest critic. A good holster and a good belt go a long way. Glock 27 in a CompTac Minotaur Spartan and an untucked shirt or a Keltec P-3AT in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster.

[BigFoot]

A Ruger LCP .380 in an Uncle Mikes IWB holster is pretty much invisible with an untucked shirt of any kind.

[Mr. Tettnanger]

Also what does it mean to be made?

It refers to someone noticing that you are carrying a weapon. It could be as subtle as a fellow concealed carry enthusiast tactfully letting you know that "Your gun is showing!", to a huge SUV driving soccer mom screaming and flailing for all in a 347 mile radius that some MANIAC (you) has a gun and is going to use it!

Being made is a bad thing!

[aceinyerface]

It refers to someone noticing that you are carrying a weapon. It could be as subtle as a fellow concealed carry enthusiast tactfully letting you know that "Your gun is showing!", to a huge SUV driving soccer mom screaming and flailing for all in a 347 mile radius that some MANIAC (you) has a gun and is going to use it!

Being made is a bad thing!

Or elbowing your wife, nodding your head in the packer's direction and exchanging knowing glances.

I never "out" someone, or even say anything to them, but I see it. It is like an awareness game, for me.

[aceinyerface]

It's a matter of the whole ensemble: weapon, holster, belt, cover garments, personal preference, body size, etc...

Well said.

[LukeDuke]

KelTec P3AT w/Speer Gold Dots in a Nemesis.. front or back pocket of jeans, chinos or shorts.

+1. This is my set-up exactly. I never leave home without it.

[MrMurphy]

A micro .380 is better than no gun at all, but there are times when six rounds of .380 just won't cut it.

I only go that small if there is absolutely no other choice.

After experiences elsewhere, a 9mm or .45 with two reloads is what i consider my basic setup.

[aceinyerface]

A micro .380 is better than no gun at all, but there are times when six rounds of .380 just won't cut it.

I only go that small if there is absolutely no other choice.

After experiences elsewhere, a 9mm or .45 with two reloads is what i consider my basic setup.

I'll just c+p from the other CCW thread-------------

Wild Bill Hickock killed over 100 men and favored a .36 cal blackpowder revolver firing an 80 grain .375 diameter round ball at approx. 1000fps for approx. 180ft/lbs of energy.

A modern Hornady Critical Defense .380 is a 90 grain .375 diameter hollowpoint designed for maximum stopping power, fired at 1000fps for 200ft/lbs of energy.

Basically, you are using something slightly better than one of the most famous and prolific gunfighters in history.

------------------------

Personally, I prefer something that has a little more "ooomph", and it is reasonable to expect even better performance from larger calibers, but the statement that a .380 is too underpowered to be effective is not historically accurate.

[jwcarlson]

A micro .380 is better than no gun at all, but there are times when six rounds of .380 just won't cut it.

I only go that small if there is absolutely no other choice.

After experiences elsewhere, a 9mm or .45 with two reloads is what i consider my basic setup.

There are times when 15 rounds of .45 won't be enough either.

[Blue Raccoon]

+1. This is my set-up exactly. I never leave home without it.

exactly.. with this setup you don't have to decide it you want to 'lug it along' or what you are going to wear.. if I'm casual as I almost always am since retiring I hate wearing a belt. 99% of the time it's jeans and a polo or shorts and a t-shirt or 'bowling shirt' the wife calls them.

[Pete]

A Ruger LCP .380 in an Uncle Mikes IWB holster is pretty much invisible with an untucked shirt of any kind.

Truth. I carry a XD-9 Sub-Compact, but the LCP is a good buy (@$300brand new). Heck, they're small enough to fit in your pants pocket if need be. They take some getting used compared to a larger sidearm, but you really should practice regularly with anything you intend to carry and expect to trust your life with. My only complaint with the LCP is due to it's size, it's a lot of "bang" very close to your hand. Still, for a handgun so easily concealed, it's a worthy trade-off. A day or two at the range, and it's a non-issue.

[MrMurphy]

Wild Bill practiced every day and most of his fights he knew were coming. He was a better shot than most of us.

I was very nearly in a situation where 21 rounds of .45 would likely not have enabled survival, thus why the 'six rounds of .380' comment. If i'm going down i'm bringing as many of them along as possible.

I've always erred on the side of firepower, previously professionally i carried either 210 rounds of 5.56 or 700 rounds of 7.62mm with 30 rounds of 9mm just in case.

In my profession before that, i saw around 20 people either get shot or immediately postshooting as well as around 300-400 suicides. I am well aware of what works and what does not, and the .380 'can' work. But a lot of the time, even the larger calibers have troubles. I saw a guy get double tapped from contact distance, center chest by a cop with a .40 Glock and it ended up going hand to hand after adrenalin/shock kicked in and 3 large cops were fighting to pin down one small, shot twice in the chest burglar.

[aceinyerface]

Modern pistol technique teaches a Failure Drill (double tap+assess+well aimed shot to head). Hopefully, more folks who carry a gun in the service of the American people are getting up-to-date training. It is disconcerting to know that there are a lot of civilians who are better trained than the people who are supposed to be protecting them, saw it a lot in the martial arts, too.

Protracted gunfights are really beyond the scope of any CCW, no matter if one carried a .45acp, .454 Casull, or .500 S&W. Don't know if combat loadouts and war stories are helpful for the guy who is still trying to figure out if he even needs a firearm.

Sounds like you see plenty of trouble, stay safe.

[plpenn]

I carry mostly IWB, SOB and SS anything from a 1911 to a 380 and have never been made.

I also have a leather vest with 2 HUGE pockets (that will fit a 44mag) for when Im riding my bike.

I have pulled mine twice in 10 years but have not had to go any further than that (luckily)

[Pete]

In my profession before that, i saw around 20 people either get shot or immediately postshooting as well as around 300-400 suicides. I am well aware of what works and what does not, and the .380 'can' work. But a lot of the time, even the larger calibers have troubles. I saw a guy get double tapped from contact distance, center chest by a cop with a .40 Glock and it ended up going hand to hand after adrenalin/shock kicked in and 3 large cops were fighting to pin down one small, shot twice in the chest burglar.

Due to your line of work, you'd know better than I... but I swear I've read somewhere that this sort of thing is characteristic of handguns, in general. They're just not going to drop someone like a rifle, period. If I recall correctly, it was stated that a human is 50% more likely to survive a handgun shot as compared rifle of a similar caliber.

[aceinyerface]

Due to your line of work, you'd know better than I... but I swear I've read somewhere that this sort of thing is characteristic of handguns, in general. They're just not going to drop someone like a rifle, period. If I recall correctly, it was stated that a human is 50% more likely to survive a handgun shot as compared rifle of a similar caliber.

It is a Clintism- "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down." Clint Smith http://www.thunderranchinc.com/director.html

[Blue Raccoon]

I think military/leo/security vs 99% of folks who ccw are totally different things. ccw is to defend yourself from deadly force it's not a license to go looking for trouble. I would think any perp would have a good chance in court turning the table on someone carrying a 45 and 2 additional mags as being the aggressor.

in RVN I carried a m16 and multiple bandoleers of ammo.. and a s&w 6" 357 and a russel on my boot but certainly don't see the need to go to Wally World like that.

of course your mileage my vary..

[Crixus]

ccw is to defend yourself from deadly force it's not a license to go looking for troubleExactly. Discretion, alertness and judgement should rule your travels, not necessarily a need to being well enough armed to "handle" any situation that could come along. For me, if I ever found I needed more than the full cylinders or magazine of a carry piece, I really shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Remember, if you ever do have to shoot a man, and you live to tell about it, your troubles are probably just beginning. Even if the police/courts find it a justifiable shooting, it's the civil suit that can ruin your life.

We're all different, and have different views, so this is just how I view things. To each his own. :001_smile

[denim]

There are times when 15 rounds of .45 won't be enough either.

Gun control: hitting what you shoot at.

[plpenn]

A wise (cc instructor) friend of mine always said "With this licence comes great responsibility"

I think it is important that people remember a concealed handgun should always be the last resort!

[Grumpy_Bottom]

3" 1911 every day with a Milt Sparks VersaMax II and a Beltman 1.5" belt, I'm around police every day and have never been made that any of them said. Most people are flat out shocked if I ever have to remove the gun at work when getting into a car with narrow seats etc and swear they had no idea I was carrying. Heck, my wife didn't realize I'd started carrying for over a month and a half using this setup until she went to put her arm around my waist unexpectedly one morning as I was leaving. The right holster and belt make a ton of difference. Doesn't hurt that I'm 6' 230 with extra fat to hide things, and I can wear an untucked Dickies work shirt to work every day.

[MrMurphy]

All the shootings were civilian, and I was an observer not a participant, except the near miss.

You can hit what you aim at all you want but sometimes, they bring friends.

In my case, they brought four. So 'what's in the gun+a reload" is my bare minimum. Criminals do tend to travel in groups. Five or six shots may not be enough for ONE guy even if you hit him with most of them. People do weird things under stress, and tend to miss a lot, even with training. I carry the biggest caliber i can control (.45, or 9mm with hollowpoints), with as much as i can comfortably hide (gun+2 reloads) whenever possible. Smallest i've gone is a micro-.380 or .38 pocket piece and a reload.

As to military pistol training, it tends to vary wildly, but most don't get much. Ours was once a year, 45 rounds for practice 45 for qual, double taps and triples ranging from 3-25m. Since we were overseas both ammo and range time were heavily restricted or i'd be training on the side, there, we couldn't. Even rifle training was highly restricted and we rolled out every day with them.

Had some very interesting times and a lot of close calls, never ended up dropping the hammer on anyone either in uniform or out. Two times if we had (and it was split second one way or the other) there would have been 60+ rounds of 5.56 going one way and some serious international complications.

[LittleLebowski]

Shoulder carry is a thing of the 80's and bad cop shows. There is a reason no one in competition or the military use it. It's also slow. Inside waist band, either on the hip or appendix is best and very concealable. Appendix carry is NOT for everybody.


I carried a full sized Glock 22 in a shoulder holster over a tshirt, under a half unbuttoned oversized Dickies work shirt and was able to do physical labor with minimal printing. My CCW teacher was an ex CIA guy and recommended the set up for sandals, shorts, and hawaiian shirts as well, he carried a 1911 like that. A smaller pistol on a smaller man would reduce printing even more.

Belt carry needs a cover garment. People get "made" a lot with belt carry. The shooting schools make a lot of money teaching belt draw kata, so it is the most popular.

Pocket carry works well for specialized firearms.

Ankle carry requires pants for a cover garment, I find it more of a pain than anything else.

Off body is better than nothing, but I don't like the fact that the firearm is not secured.

[Psychofish]

G19, plus two extra mags. I don't plan on shooting all those rounds, but a hard fall breaks floor plates, panic reloads may cause a dropped mag etc. I error on the side of caution. For work I carry a G21sf and I love that gun to death! I may be replacing my 19 with a 30 here soon to accept the mags from the 21 for a quick extra thirteen or so! I carry IWB (In the waist band) at maybe a four o'clock position. That way my sides look somewhat normal, but is still easy to defend. I carry Speer Gold Dot ammo for the simple fact that if I have to shoot someone and when I get called to court I didn't use "evil cop killing bullets" since that is what I am given to go out into the public with daily for my service weapon. I will be looking into an OWB kydex holster here in the coming months and may go with a Raven Concealment, or maybe hit an upcoming company that I have been really impressed with, Armadillo Concealment. What ever you carry there are two rules, 1) don't look for trouble, and 2) dont' be a hero.

For instance, you are walking your dog at night and hear a woman screaming. You go to see whats up and see a guy tieing her up to a tree. Do you present your weapon and take control of the situation? You'll be going to jail, that was a concentual "role play" adult act. Introduce the weapon when the situation is at the point it is needed and not a second before. You are not johnny law and LEO likes a great witness more than a hero 99% of time.

[aceinyerface]

Shoulder carry is a thing of the 80's and bad cop shows. There is a reason no one in competition or the military use it. It's also slow. Inside waist band, either on the hip or appendix is best and very concealable. Appendix carry is NOT for everybody.

http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/patton_lifecover_19410707_sm.jpg

That is General Patton.

http://www.adirondackleatherproducts.com/holstersa.html

This is the current issue M9 shoulder holster.

I don't care about your groupthink. It works well for me, as well as others, including the US military.

[LittleLebowski]

Sorry, posting history doesn't support your point unless there is data showing Patton's gunfights drawing from said holster?

Just because the US military does it, does not mean it is right. It maybe good enough for you but go to a match or any of the well known trainers and see what they use and advocate. Such as Kyle DeFoor (SEAL and now trainer of SEALs, uses appendix) and Larry Vickers (Delta Force trainer, IWB, about 4 o'clock position). These guys are the best of the US military. Speaking as an 8 year Marine grunt, the military is very often stagnant, slow to adapt, and trains for a two way range using outdated marksmanship training instead of combat training. I know both men personally and have been trained by them at their civilian classes (carbine and handgun).

However, you can disprove me. What is your time from a concealed draw to hit say a 3x5 card at 25'? Mine from appendix is 1.5 seconds.

I've attached a video of me shooting the FAM Triple Nickel drill. Had a malfunction (improperly seated mag) but you can see the speed of the draw and the concealment. IWB/appendix carry also lends themselves well to hot weather attire. How do you conceal that shoulder rig in the summer?


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/SANY0027.mp4


http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/patton_lifecover_19410707_sm.jpg

That is General Patton.

http://www.adirondackleatherproducts.com/holstersa.html

This is the current issue M9 shoulder holster.

I don't care about your groupthink. It works well for me, as well as others, including the US military.

[aceinyerface]

However, you can disprove me. What is your time from a concealed draw to hit say a 3x5 card at 25'? Mine from appendix is 1.5 seconds.


You assume I want to play your gun games or try to pretend like I can draw down against a firearm already aimed at me.

I know that in the little "tacticool" world there might as well be only one handgun, one holster, one rifle, and one way of thinking. But, there is a whole world outside of yours.

You have already shown that you are so narrow minded that you will make up facts to suit your purpose (IE- military shoulder holster use). But, just about any Wednesday night, you can see Massad Ayoob on PDTV and on occasion he wears a shoulder holster, it is also in his book "The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery" By Massad Ayoob Pages 133-135 It can be viewed online here- http://books.google.com/books?id=wiiUeexIMLIC&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=ayoob+shoulder+holster&source=bl&ots=rwqe4kP28l&sig=m9eSjOcksZM0CRr6zrY24hl8FXc&hl=en&ei=3JzZTY2OM4rn0QGd2c38Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

It always amazes me when people make the jump from " X works well for me, and this is why..." to " nothing other than X will work". It a fallacious argument that most experts will not make, but you see it all the time from people behind keyboards.

[LittleLebowski]

Oddly enough, I'm the person asking for hard facts and posting actual videos of myself shooting. You know, doing more than talking of other's actions and hiding behind a keyboard? Name the drill, shoot it on video and timer and I'll ante up and do the same. There it is on the table. Pick it up and show me I'm wrong. Your method is archaic and has been long, long outdated. It's bad advice. At the range, you flag every one one to your sides with muzzle while drawing. It's slow. It requires additional cover garments ove IWB or AIWB. It does nothing better than IWB and does many things substantially worse. I have posted my points, you have not countered them. You have found some pictures.

You on the other hand, are posting pictures of someone else and not answering the points I raised. You haven't found a single shred of evidence but you have found one gun writer wearing a shoulder holster in a picture on the internet.

I sincerely doubt that you are going to matches or training with that rig. When is the last time you went shooting? How about formal training? Look at what the competitors are using. Look at what the shooters are using overseas. The competitors are using Kydex OWB or IWB, the shooters overseas are using storng side belt or drop mounted Safariland Kydex rigs. No matter how many pics you find of Patton or Ayoob, the reality in competition and combat won't be changed.


You assume I want to play your gun games or try to pretend like I can draw down against a firearm already aimed at me.

I know that in the little "tacticool" world there might as well be only one handgun, one holster, one rifle, and one way of thinking. But, there is a whole world outside of yours.

You have already shown that you are so narrow minded that you will make up facts to suit your purpose (IE- military shoulder holster use). But, just about any Wednesday night, you can see Massad Ayoob on PDTV and on occasion he wears a shoulder holster, it is also in his book "The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery" By Massad Ayoob Pages 133-135 It can be viewed online here- http://books.google.com/books?id=wiiUeexIMLIC&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=ayoob+shoulder+holster&source=bl&ots=rwqe4kP28l&sig=m9eSjOcksZM0CRr6zrY24hl8FXc&hl=en&ei=3JzZTY2OM4rn0QGd2c38Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

It always amazes me when people make the jump from " X works well for me, and this is why..." to " nothing other than X will work". It a fallacious argument that most experts will not make, but you see it all the time from people behind keyboards.

[aceinyerface]

On my cell, you will have to forgive the brevity.

It is not "a" picture, Ayoob has a half dozen, in sequence, fully annotated with specific instructions on performing the draw.

Again you mischaracterize. Just like you trying to use the military issue gear to bolster your position, then when it turns out you are wrong, saying what the military does doesn't matter.

I don't need to get your approval, time my draw, or namedrop, or post pictures or videos or anything else to try to measure my "manhood" against yours. You evidently have some "you" issues to work on, though.

I'll be happy with Ayoob's advice and instructions over random annoying Internet guy. If that makes me slower than you, just smile. And remember the words of Musashi "Slow is fast, and fast is slow."

[LittleLebowski]

You are emotionally invested in a technique and cannot offer substantive evidence to back your claims other than dropping Ayoob's name. You do not have the wherewithal to answer any of the points I've raised nor do you intend to actually do anything other than take your ball and go home. Words are cheap. What's winning in the real world competitions and combat?

I will go with Kyle DeFoor and Larry Vickers over Ayoob. Know who they are? When was the last time you attended a competition or formal training? You know, to better your technique and see what is working for others?

[aceinyerface]

Subtlety obviously doesn't work on you.

You are rude, and 20 posts into your time here, I am the 2nd person to say so.

I could talk shop with you, but since you are a jerk, just spoiling for a fight, I choose not to.

You appear to be an angry person with self esteem issues and an obnoxiously enormous ego. I alway give people like you a wide berth, as they tend to be quite erratic. I hope your relationships do not suffer as a result, as is often the case.

I wish you luck, with a personality like yours, you probably need as much as you can get.

[LittleLebowski]

From Ayoob himself. http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1353281


Lebowski, I don't know of anyone who's used a shoulder holster in competition successfully since Jeff Cooper back in the 1950s or so, when he ran a 1911 .45 out of a Hardy/Cooper shoulder rig for a while, and Jeff himself soon gave up on the idea. Most "practical handgun" sports don't even allow them anymore, because the muzzle tends to sweep the shooter on the weak hand side during the draw.

I personally keep shoulder holsters handy for special needs: they're great for drawing from seated, take the weight off your hips if you have a lumbar injury, and they work well for folks in wheelchairs. I've found more female than male gun carriers like shoulder rigs, because a shoulder holster is hard for a broad-shouldered male to get to but easy for a woman who typically has a narrower torso. The hip holsters that are comfortable for men are agonizing for a lot of women because they tend to ride too high.

That said, while I like shoulder holsters for special purposes, I usually carry strong side hip...a decision that a huge majority of male gun carriers have come to, as well.

Best,
Mas

[Grumpy_Bottom]

From Ayoob himself. http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1353281

Couldn't help but LOL a little

[LittleLebowski]

I do apologize for my tone. Incredulity does not translate well over electrons. I will work on my tone but will always do my best to help people find the right gear and techniques in this lifestyle.

[TankCommander1554]

I carry a Glock 19 in a Raven Concealment Holster IWB at my 4'oclock. I haven't had any issues while carrying and I seen any reason that might might be awkward to carry in. My best advice is carry as often as possible and adjust your wardrobe to fit the weapon. I carry daily no matter what I am wearing and it's all a matter of having a few good holsters so you can make 90% of situations work. I also carry a spare mag, flashlight, and knife.

There are so many options out there for concealed carry - pick one that works for you, conceals well for you, and get a holster and try it out. Once you have selected your weapon and holster, make sure you get some professional training outside your CCW Course. Training is worth it and will help you immensely in dealing with any anxiety, any questions about gear, any questions about the different situations you may find yourself in, etc.

I would recommend Tactical Response Inc in Camden, TN. James Yeager is a professional and will give you the "No BS" info and training you need to be safe while CCWing.

Good Luck!

[aceinyerface]

I do apologize for my tone. Incredulity does not translate well over electrons. I will work on my tone but will always do my best to help people find the right gear and techniques in this lifestyle.

Anyone who is man enough to apologize is man enough to be forgiven, in my book.

[aceinyerface]

Since we are all being friendly now, I can talk a little shop.

I am not a firearms expert, but am not a novice. My family landed in Charlestown 20 years before the American Revolution and have fought in every major action the military has ever had. It is tradition that the males (and often females) are taught to shoot as soon as they can hold the rifle. It is from this that I received my firearms training. My father was a Bullseye pistol competitor in Arkansas and knew the Clarks before they became high end pistolsmiths. I was shooting 22's as a child and handguns about 13. We shot and reloaded every few weeks or so since then, a tradition I still carry on with my family. Doesn't make me an expert. And, I wouldn't presume to get cocky about my shooting skill, but I am confident. I figure I shoot more than most but not as much as some.

The "shooting school" is a recent invention, coming about in the last 10 years or so. I have never been to one, although I was required to take a CCW class. (I could have taught the dang thing, but that is beside the point) I think they are awesome for folks that didn't get brought up shooting, and in this world they are needed badly. I commiserate with all my shooting buddies who have been to the various schools and shoot their drills with them when they go to practice. There are some neat things I have added to my practice as a result, only an idiot refuses to try something new (as long as it is reasonable) or change if something better comes along. So, I am not ignorant of what is being taught at them. They cost as much as an all expense paid week in Disney World, though.

[aceinyerface]

On the merits of the shoulder holster-

I am not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm just relating my experience. If anyone finds value in that, great, if not, it is worth what you paid for it.

I have tried just about every holster, and run in circles where just about anything and everything makes the rounds for trial at the range or in the woods. I settled on the shoulder holster through trial and error, and have some clearly defined reasons for my choice. Again, it is just my preference.

1) I live in a place where, 8 months of the year, we have close to 100 degrees with 100% humidity every day. Standard clothing far the Louisianaian (coonass) is a light shirt (like a polo) and shorts, maybe long pants (like jeans or khakis). We can't do cover garments well. If you wear something out of the norm, the thugs make you. (BTW, the murder rate here is the highest of any state, arguably the most dangerous place in the US) Vests of any kind get you made. A heavy shirt or jacket gets you made. If you don't look like everyone else, a savvy criminal quickly figures "what is his story", coming up with cop or CCW. Either way, they figure "gun". You can try to cover with the light shirt, but 100* + 100% humidity =sweat. Sweat means clinging clothing. Clinging clothing means printing.

I guess I should add what I wear. Most of the year, pants or shorts, tshirt with shoulder holster on top, short sleeved button up oversized shirt either half unbuttoned for access over the top, or untucked for pulling it up from the bottom. I also switch up and do pocket carry and on occasion (mostly in winter) belt carry as the situation or mood calls for.

2) I need deep concealment. I don't sit in a cubicle. I have clients to deal with and there is no telling where they stand on guns. I might lose a client if they make me out. That means my family doesn't eat, can't have that.

3) I am quite active and find myself doing anything and everything. Quick scenario, take your best IWB holster, most expensive 1911, best cover garment, get all ready... now go change the starter on your wife's car in the Walmart parking lot, see the problem. In addition, I drive a LOT. I can't reach it in the car.

For me, where I live and what I do, the belt is often the wrong spot for the firearm. I lot of people do not make the same choice, but since they don't pay my bills I figure they can get over it.

Then there is dealing with the cons

Drawing.

First, I reject the notion of NEEDING to quick draw and fire. I know there is a whole sport grown up on it and there is a lot of money changing hands, which means a lot of folks with vested interests in promoting it. But, having pulled my firearm 3 times in defense but never having fired a shot, my experience is going to be what matters to me.

2) I can pull the firearm from a shoulder holster in about a second. No need to time it, it doesn't matter. People here don't fight "High Noon" style, where someone says "draw" or some timer beeps and you jerk iron and start slinging lead. It comes out quick enough. Situations develop instead of "spring out of nothingness" and there is time to position yourself behind something. If you find yourself surprised, you haven't been paying attention. And, if someone gets that big of a drop on you, you will be shot going for your gun anyway. Many people think they can "Roy Rogers" it, I don't personally think so. But that is just me.

3) Safety. People think that you are required to stand square shouldered to the target to engage it, thus having to move the muzzle in a 180 degree arc. But, dropping into a martial arts stance, blading your body with your left foot and left shoulder forward moves the muzzle 90 degrees of that without even coming out of the holster. In addition, the Galco holster swings free under the arm about 45 degrees. Leaving 45 degrees that the muzzle paints. You can give a twist of the hips if you really want to minimize the angle, but it is generally good at 45*. Arm comes up to get it out of the way. Acceptable, if done right. Reholstering, left hand grabs the holster and points the muzzle down. And yes, I do it like that at my shooting spot in the woods (the ranges do not allow ANY holstered firearms).

Anyway, I don't want to be an evangelical about it. I just find it works for me. But implications of being unsafe or other jabs are going to be taken with offense.

[LittleLebowski]

It is indeed unsafe if you practice it at a range. There is no doubt about it that I would not want to be your weak side if you are drawing at a range. I don't like weapons being pointed at me at the range.

A draw should be fast. Vickers teaches that everything gets worse by a factor of double in combat. That 1 second draw will be slower, probably prone to errors. You group size will double. That's why folks like myself train and compete. My ranges allow holstered firearms.

No one here has mentioned "Roy Rogers" as a technique. I have never been in a quick draw competition but I do see much, much merit in being able to draw from absolute concealment and hit a target accurately. You do not?

I live in Northern VA. While not LA, it does get very humid and hot. I've never thought that having an additional cover garment on top of my regular untucked t-shirt was desirable. IWB allows me to conceal properly and comfortably only using a t-shirt.

You are referring to the isosceles or bladed stance when referring to being "squared off." Two reasons for this.... One, it gives body armor the best chance to protect (yes, I know most civvies aren't wearing body armor. Two.....it wins matches. I know you may pooh pooh competition but it wasn't that long ago that guys like Jeff Cooper and Thell Reed started revolutionizing handgun shooting as the world knew through.....competition. So whether you like it or not, shooting evolves and it evolves through combat and competition. The two compliment each other.

As far as
Quick scenario, take your best IWB holster, most expensive 1911, best cover garment, get all ready... now go change the starter on your wife's car in the Walmart parking lot, see the problem. In addition, I drive a LOT. I can't reach it in the car.

I don't shoot 1911s. Been down that path. Nice piece of history that has been long eclipsed by modern designs. I can access AIWB easily while driving. I wear it everyday to work. I can work on a car with it and have done my truck's front disc brakes carrying AIWB.

[aceinyerface]

I don't shoot 1911s. Been down that path. Nice piece of history that has been long eclipsed by modern designs.

Well, at least we agree on something.

[LittleLebowski]

Yup, my guns are tools, not princesses.

[LittleLebowski]

Ayoob on stance. (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1265715)

[aceinyerface]

On my phone again.

I can shoot from any position, so it is not an issue.

But, on the subject, hanmi is the fighting stance often used in Japanese martial arts, looks just like a Weaver or modified Weaver, and after close to 10,000 hours of training, it is as natural as anything for me to get into.

Integrating all skills into a cohesive unit, it is more natural for me than the competition shooting hunch shouldered, forward leaning jigohontai stance that I used to make aerial displays out of in judo.

I am pretty sure that Ayoob is Uechi ryu, definitely karate. Chinese in origin and they do sanchin horse stances, quite a bit different from it's Japanese counterparts. I could see how he would favor isosceles. For conversation's sake, you might ask him about it.

[aceinyerface]

A draw should be fast. Vickers teaches that everything gets worse by a factor of double in combat. That 1 second draw will be slower, probably prone to errors. You group size will double. That's why folks like myself train and compete.

Yeah, adrenaline dumps into the blood stream, heart rate increases, breathing patterns change, hands can shake, eyesight can diminish or even get tunnelvision, hearing diminishes, decision making is affected, can cause loss of coordination.

I know you think that is super cool and really value your hero's teaching, but that is very old knowledge. Hunters call it "buck fever". Been there done that, on both bucks and bad guys.

I don't even think you realize how condescending you are being.

"Everyone else is wrong, stupid, reckless and ignorant, you know everything for a certainty, if someone doesn't do it YOUR way they suck, your experts (who no one has heard of outside your little world) are the ultimate resource on everything even over other well known experts, you are always right even when you are wrong" You qualify none of your statements and exhibit NO humility.

It is getting old quick, for the second time. I think I'll put you back on the ignore list.

And, the only question you haven't asked is the obvious one- "If I shoot so much, why not go to a competition?"

The answer is "I cannot abide the pseudo ubermacho, resume' waving, condescending know it all's, with affectations of faux militaristic rudeness, cliqued up into their elitist, gear-centric self-important groups. And, it doesn't appear to be getting better".

[LittleLebowski]

So much for civility.....

I was also taught the same in the United States Marine Corps. Heard of them?

You can quote Ayoob and I cannot quote Vickers. Got it.



Yeah, adrenaline dumps into the blood stream, heart rate increases, breathing patterns change, hands can shake, eyesight can diminish or even get tunnelvision, hearing diminishes, decision making is affected, can cause loss of coordination.

I know you think that is super cool and really value your hero's teaching, but that is very old knowledge. Hunters call it "buck fever". Been there done that, on both bucks and bad guys.

I don't even think you realize how condescending you are being.

"Everyone else is wrong, stupid, reckless and ignorant, you know everything for a certainty, if someone doesn't do it YOUR way they suck, your experts (who no one has heard of outside your little world) are the ultimate resource on everything even over other well known experts, you are always right even when you are wrong" You qualify none of your statements and exhibit NO humility.

It is getting old quick, for the second time. I think I'll put you back on the ignore list.

And, the only question you haven't asked is the obvious one- "If I shoot so much, why not go to a competition?"

The answer is "I cannot abide the pseudo ubermacho, resume' waving, condescending know it all's, with affectations of faux militaristic rudeness, cliqued up into their elitist, gear-centric self-important groups. And, it doesn't appear to be getting better".

[johnnyv145]

I have been interested in getting my CCW but I had some questions. How can you carry you carry your weapon so it is still concealed but does not get in the way. Also have you been in a situation that you needed your CCW? I only ask because I am trying to determine if the times I would need it would outweigh the number of awkward situations.

I work in the firearms industry and perhaps I can give you some industry insight. Find a good reputable local firearms specialty retailer in your area and pay them a visit. Many if not most gun specialty stores sell quality holsters and belts. When you work in the gun business you see all types of perceived "effective" concealed carry attempts every day. Once you become conditioned to spot the gun, it really becomes quite easy. Just because no one has ever commented to you about your gun showing does not mean that you have not been outed. Effective CCW really relies on the fact that the average person is so consumed with other personal daily issues that they do not pay attention to the small details of their surrounding environment like the bulge in your cover garment that could be either a Blackberry on your belt or a Glock 19.

One of the realities of carrying and concealing a hand gun is that there is no one gun one holster combo that fits every scenario. You will probably find that you may need several different hand guns and carry options for different environments, social situations, and clothing requirements.

Other considerations such as your body type/shape, physical ability to operate a particular weapon type. Some women cannot physically rack a slide on a semi automatic pistol or someone may have a physical disability that makes semi auto pistols or certain calibers unmanageable, so perhaps a revolver would be a better choice or a lower caliber. Do you have any physical limitations that may inhibit your ability to access a handgun from a particular holster, a bad shoulder rotator cuff may make strongside 4:00 carry impractical so a shoulder holster may be a viable option for you.

One of the most common errors of CCW holders is that they do not effectively alter their wardrobe to account for the added bulk of a handgun. A very simple solution is to wear a shirt one size larger than what you normally wear. Body language is the dead giveaway of a CCW handgun. Constantly pulling up your pants on the side of the holster, many CCW holders are not even aware that they constantly fidget with the gun, clamping the pistol between their elbow and side or using the pistol as an arm rest and other odd body language.

Carrying a hand gun is a PITA. Someone once said that "carrying a hand gun is never comfortable, but it may be comforting".
A good gunshop will spend the time to help you find the best carry options as far a weapon type, caliber, holster/belt that works for your body type and any other special considerations.

Don't get sucked into the caliber debate, it is pointless. A good rule of thumb is to carry the largest caliber that you can effectively manage and shoot accurately. And the same stupid debates rage on about manufacuturers, Glock vs. XD, 1911 vs. striker fired. It all comes down to personal choice. Modern firearms manufacturers are all putting out pretty good products. Go and shoot different guns and different calibers until you find what works for you. Gun and caliber opinions are like A-holes, everyone has one and it seems that some may have two, one for poopin and one for talkin.

There have been many times that I have had to guide a customer to the realization that a firearm is not the best option for them and they would be better served with a non-lethal option such as pepper spray or a Tazer.
There is nothing wrong with the decision to not carry a firearm once you have weighed all the options and considerations of your individual life situation.

Hope this helps.

[LittleLebowski]

Johnny, only caveats I'd add that there are certainly better and worse designed weapons and itertations of good designs that have problems. Most people on the know avoid XDs like the plague for a host of reasons. Also, "biggest" isn't always best if the biggest caliber you can afford to shoot is 50% more expensive than say...9mm.

The long and short of it is do you want to be a gun owner or a shooter? If the latter, take formal training. Find a reputable instructor and learn. Anyone getting a CCW permit should absolutely get formal training.

[johnnyv145]

Johnny, only caveats I'd add that there are certainly better and worse designed weapons and itertations of good designs that have problems. Most people on the know avoid XDs like the plague for a host of reasons. Also, "biggest" isn't always best if the biggest caliber you can afford to shoot is 50% more expensive than say...9mm.

The long and short of it is do you want to be a gun owner or a shooter? If the latter, take formal training. Find a reputable instructor and learn. Anyone getting a CCW permit should absolutely get formal training.
I suggested some very general guidelines as a place for a novice to start from. In the end each person has to choose for themselves what is best for their needs as far as gun manufacturer, design, or caliber. I deal with people everyday, 60 hrs per week, that are new to firearms and you have to learn to look at things from their perspective. The shop I work in has over 2,500 handguns in stock. You can just see the eyes glaze over when a person who is new to the firearms world walks in and sees the overwhelming choices laid out in the display cases.
The top 3 questions I get asked every day from novice customers are:
1. I need a gun but I don't know what I should buy. What kind of gun do you carry?
2. I have been told by my friend that the .40 is the only caliber I should shoot because it has the most knock down power, is that true?
3. Why don't you sell Hipoint pistols?

I am not saying that your caveats are right or wrong, they are simply your personal views as an experienced firearms person and that is ok. I do strongly agree that money spent on quality professional training and a $400.00 used Gen 3 Glock 19 is money far better spent than no training and a $3,000 Nighthawk Custom 1911.

Guns are just one of those polarizing subjects that draw strong feelings and opinions. That is the way it has always been and the way it will always be.

[BrianK]

Shoulder carry is a thing of the 80's and bad cop shows. There is a reason no one in competition or the military use it. It's also slow. Inside waist band, either on the hip or appendix is best and very concealable. Appendix carry is NOT for everybody.

It's not used in competition not because it's slow (it is) but because you point the gun at lots of folks when it's drawn. I use a Mitch Rosen shoulder holster when it's appropriate. I'd rather have my 3" Kimber in a SH than not at all. Not having it at all makes acquiring the gun very slow! If one drives a lot, or sits a lot a SH makes huge sense. The problem with a SH is Joe six pack tries to do it on the cheap and an inexpensive shoulder holster is just terrible, so they get put away and left there.

A SH used to carry a large hunting handgun is almost a must. Now someone may say, but that isn't CCW! Oh really !?? It's -20 in Maine, where are you going to have your handgun? Exposed to the cold? Or under your jacket? Under the jacket is CCW.

Anyone who uses one method of carrying is either not carrying or doesn't change his clothes for the weather. Ones method of carry needs to change as appropriate.

Other than the SH, I also carry strong side belt, OWB, and in an external pack (Maxpedition Fatboy) or Safepacker. The external carry isn't my favorite way, but the way I use most often in the warm weather when I'm wearing next to nothing or when it's -20 and I'm wearing lots of clothing in public.

BTW, I was made once that I know of. A friend saw the front edge of my spare mags in my Maxpedition Fatboy, and knew what they were instantly. But he is a shooter. I agreed he was right and that was that, subject dropped after he told me that no one else would know what they were. If one carries correctly no one will make you. That means not adjusting clothing and not feeling for it to make sure it's there. That requires comfortable carry options. Use what works for you in your situation.

[CyanideJenkins]

Normal: Carry hot with Crossbreed Supertuck at 4 o'clock with a Kimber Ultra CDP II racking 230 gr. Speer Gold Dots.

When wearing shorts: Blackhawk Pocket Holster with a Kahr P380 racking 90 gr. Federal Hydra-shoks.

[jloneill17]

I carry a glock 23 in a theis holster

www.theisholsters.com

can't see a thing

[SB1831]

Johnny, only caveats I'd add that there are certainly better and worse designed weapons and itertations of good designs that have problems. Most people on the know avoid XDs like the plague for a host of reasons. Also, "biggest" isn't always best if the biggest caliber you can afford to shoot is 50% more expensive than say...9mm.

The long and short of it is do you want to be a gun owner or a shooter? If the latter, take formal training. Find a reputable instructor and learn. Anyone getting a CCW permit should absolutely get formal training.

Needless to say I haven't purchased a new pistol in 5+ years, and havent been reading much but whats the knock on XDs for CCW?

[LittleLebowski]

Needless to say I haven't purchased a new pistol in 5+ years, and havent been reading much but whats the knock on XDs for CCW?

Poor reliability and QC. They literally lock up solid, needing disassembly. Poor design for one handed manipulations. Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorne specifically recommend against them.

[LittleLebowski]

Anyone who uses one method of carrying is either not carrying or doesn't change his clothes for the weather. Ones method of carry needs to change as appropriate.


That is most certainly not an absolute. I carry appendix inside waistband year round.

[MrMurphy]

Agreed, i carry IWB and generally, except in very cold weather (when i move to an OWB in the same place) only IWB and have for 10 years. Almost any weather. Even when it's 100 outside, a t-shirt and light patterned button down over it hides anything the right size. In my case a midsize Glock.

[LittleLebowski]

Example of XD problems (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=95638&page=all).