LE Simpson Brushes

[A. E. Simpson 1919]

Chubby 2, Colonel X2L & Duke 2 LE Ivory Fleck.

Limited availability in both Super & Best.

[email protected] for pricing & delivery information.

Thanks.

:001_smile

[Tha Baron]

How much for one of each?

[Blue-EyedSon]

Wow! Those look very nice. It makes me all the more anxious to see the special handle stock for the Gary Young signature line ...

[TYdeFan05]

YGM on the CH2 in Super, but in all honesty, I wouldn't mind seeing the other 2 prices in Super (feel free to include in your response e-mail). I like Ivory Fleck more than (faux) horn these days.

[truegreen]

YGM on the CH2 in Super, but in all honesty, I wouldn't mind seeing the other 2 prices in Super (feel free to include in your response e-mail). I like Ivory Fleck more than (faux) horn these days.

What is ivory fleck? is that the stripe thing?

[nole1]

What is ivory fleck? is that the stripe thing?

I believe its a faux ivory look.

[kaban]

Looks like rooney's faux ivory to me

[maxman]

Looks like rooney's faux ivory to me

I have a Rooney 3/2 that has a similar handle.
It's very nice. I'll bet Simpsons is just as nice. :thumbup1:

[JPDyson]

Looks like rooney's faux ivory to me

Hard to tell in these photos, but it might be a TAD more subtle (which is a good thing) than Rooney's faux ivory. I always found the faux ivory that Penworks uses to be the best. Very subtle, almost unnoticeable until you really look for it.

I think I prefer the standard stock over this, though (and we each have our own tastes).

[Mr. Scruffy]

If I were a retail vendor of shaving brushes it would make me unhappy to see my supplier consistently going around me to sell directly to my customers. Especially if he were also being secretive about pricing.

But then again, I'm not a vendor.


Just my 2¢.

[Baloosh]

In this particular example, the brushes are not available through any other vendor, thus there is only the one source to get them from. No conflict of interest exists (my opinion).

In overall theory I agree with you, however this particular situation doesn't apply - YMMV.

[Perished]

In this particular example, the brushes are not available through any other vendor, thus there is only the one source to get them from. No conflict of interest exists (my opinion).

In overall theory I agree with you, however this particular situation doesn't apply - YMMV.

I agree.

Nice brushes...

[Doodi1]

In this particular example, the brushes are not available through any other vendor, thus there is only the one source to get them from. No conflict of interest exists (my opinion).

In overall theory I agree with you, however this particular situation doesn't apply - YMMV.

I agree with this also. I have no problem with a supplier to do LE's directly. If it catches on, then they can designate a few dealers who carry the LE brushes. Beautiful brushes all in all!:thumbup:

[bbarton713]

I agree with this also. I have no problem with a supplier to do LE's directly. If it catches on, then they can designate a few dealers who carry the LE brushes. Beautiful brushes all in all!:thumbup:

+1 on the beauty of the brushes

I would only consider the pricing secretive if someone calls or writes for that information and they are told no. I've noticed that many vendors direct people to their websites for pricing and most posts on here deal with specials related to shipping and discounts.

[Xman74]

It seems to me that this is a gesture to Simpson's most important client/fan base - i.e. us. The fact is that something "special" is being offered to B&B members through this one channel. Why is it, then, that we feel the need to always crap on it? At some point, Mark/Simpson is going to get tired of dealing with us complain-aholics and we ain't gonna get didley squat from that point on! (Of course, I could be wrong, we do spend ridiculous sums of money on Simpson's stuff. But sometimes I'm surprised by the negativity against seemingly innocuous stuff.)

[A. E. Simpson 1919]

Disappointing post from a Moderator, that's all I'd say publicly.


If I were a retail vendor of shaving brushes it would make me unhappy to see my supplier consistently going around me to sell directly to my customers. Especially if he were also being secretive about pricing.

But then again, I'm not a vendor.


Just my 2¢.

[JackRapture]

I agree with this also. I have no problem with a supplier to do LE's directly. If it catches on, then they can designate a few dealers who carry the LE brushes. Beautiful brushes all in all!:thumbup:

I agree with this. I don't think Mark has any intentions to undercut business from the various Simpsons vendors. Just offering beautiful brushes and probably gauging interest in this particular stock.

[franz]

I can see where this thread is going, so I'm just going to say:

(1) Lovely, lovely brushes. Nice work.

(2) In before the lock.

[nole1]

These brushes look great Mark. I need to figure out where my shaving budget is before I can order!

[nathanb]

Seriously? Even when said "supplier" also sells their brushes as a vendor online?

I also don't see anything wrong with this. Other "suppliers" of brushes have come here to B&B and offered specials without consulting their vendors either.



If I were a retail vendor of shaving brushes it would make me unhappy to see my supplier consistently going around me to sell directly to my customers. Especially if he were also being secretive about pricing.

But then again, I'm not a vendor.


Just my 2¢.

[mretzloff]

Mark, what is the difference between this Chubby 2 and the non-LE one?

[psram]

Wonderful looking brushes. I thought I had my SBAD under control, but see it slowly rising again...

[jgkeegan]

how much for one of each?

+1

[vertelselaar]

I would appreciate a "limited edition" range on your site, with all the marvels you develop a click away.

[ramon]

They looks very sexy , I wish have the money right now to make the invesment on that simpson , I have a rooney and a vulfix but am not complete without a simpson and a plisson :001_tt1::001_tt1:

[Aaron622]

If I were a retail vendor of shaving brushes it would make me unhappy to see my supplier consistently going around me to sell directly to my customers. Especially if he were also being secretive about pricing.

But then again, I'm not a vendor.


Just my 2¢.

So Vulfix/Simpson pays B&B to be an official Vendor and then gets chastised for trying to sell their product in the Vendor Corner :001_rolle.

[kehern]

Didn't Bullgoose have a Limited Edition brush? A 2 band Grosvener or something? I don't see how that is much different that Simpsons selling anything here. I highly doubt that Phil went around asking other venders if it was ok that he had a LE brush.

[life2short1971]

Disappointing post from a Moderator, that's all I'd say publicly.
Why pricing is not public information is disappointing. Just like the fleecing on another brush where the price hasn't been set yet to maximize profit by seeing just what the market will bear before announcing a price. jmo

[Jim]

I have no comment on Marks Business practices,however I will remind everyone that the moderators of B&B are members first and foremost. If the Mod team had a problem with this thread it would be addressed via PM with the OP.
Thank you-

[Shavely Manden]

If I were a retail vendor of shaving brushes it would make me unhappy to see my supplier consistently going around me to sell directly to my customers. Especially if he were also being secretive about pricing.

But then again, I'm not a vendor.


Just my 2¢.

Then again, were I a shaving-brush vendor, I'd also be pretty unhappy to see my supplier offer a beautiful LE brush solely through one of my competitors. Then again, I'd also be pretty unhappy to only be able to stock a couple of pieces, since the supplier had to divide a limited number of LE brushes among all the vendors that wanted to stock them. And, really, if a vendor was to get huffy, is there really anything he could do? Simpson's brushes are insanely popular in this community...ceasing to stock them would probably do more to drive away customers than to get revenge on Simpson's.

I'd normally be the last person to directly criticize a moderator -- I appreciate how difficult and thankless a job it is, and I'm really grateful for the hard work y'all do -- but I'm simply shocked at the negativity directed at Simpson's over these brushes and the LE M7. When Simpson's first started posting here and announced they'd do some LE's, we were all really excited. Sure, the excitement waned when we realized that the M7 would be fscking expensive, but, well, we wanted a top-notch brush. Now, it seems that anything Simpson's does is somehow interpreted as price-gouging, viral marketing, shady dealing, undercutting honest, hardworking vendors...seriously, guys? Enough with the conspiracy theories already! :thumbdown

Simpson's is working hard to give us beautiful limited-edition brushes, like we wanted, in a hobby where the normal news we see from vendors is top-quality products being either discontinued or reformulated in favor of cut-rate, overpriced alternatives. We've lately seen Iridiums go off the market, we're bidding farewell to the AoS Rose line, we horde Penhaligon's and Trumper's tallow, but we attack a small company that's making a top-quality product especially for folks like us? It'd be nice to see a bit more appreciation for a vendor that's working with the community to continue delivering top-quality products.

Also, Simpson's actually sells its entire catalog directly from their website. Plenty of companies sell directly...it's really not that unusual.


Why pricing is not public information is disappointing. Just like the fleecing on another brush where the price hasn't been set yet to maximize profit by seeing just what the market will bear before announcing a price. jmo

Seeing what the market will bear isn't "fleecing"; not in a capitalist economy, at any rate. Almost every product you see is priced at what the market will bear, as learned & adjusted over years of experience. In fact, any sort of discount you see, from physical coupons to discount codes to Groupon, is just an attempt to price items at the maximum the market will bear for different market segments. For instance, a vendor might give a 10% discount code to B&B members because we're more likely to know about their competition and shop around, whereas less connected consumers would likely be willing to pay more for the same items...I've yet to see anybody complain about vendors offering too many B&B discounts, though. :laugh:

In short-term, limited-run terms, seeing what the market will bear is probably a good thing for everyone involved. For instance, if Simpson's discovers that, because it's misjudging the market price of its LEs, it's only making, say, a 20% profit on the LEs vs a 30% profit on its regular-production brushes, it might decide to stop making LEs, since those resources would be better spent on normal brushes. We want quality businesses like Simpson's to be as profitable as they can, so they can keep providing us with more great brushes for years to come!

[Mike...CDN]

To bad I just bought a new Chubby 2 in best so I will have to hold off on another brush for a while or my wife will kill me.

I will also add that Mark provides an excellent service and product and it dose feel like a witch hunt when he posts. Also members first and foremost don’t close active threads.

Mike

[bbarton713]

+ a bunch for Shavely's post.

[noahpictures]

then again, were i a shaving-brush vendor, i'd also be pretty unhappy to see my supplier offer a beautiful le brush solely through one of my competitors. Then again, i'd also be pretty unhappy to only be able to stock a couple of pieces, since the supplier had to divide a limited number of le brushes among all the vendors that wanted to stock them. And, really, if a vendor was to get huffy, is there really anything he could do? Simpson's brushes are insanely popular in this community...ceasing to stock them would probably do more to drive away customers than to get revenge on simpson's.

I'd normally be the last person to directly criticize a moderator -- i appreciate how difficult and thankless a job it is, and i'm really grateful for the hard work y'all do -- but i'm simply shocked at the negativity directed at simpson's over these brushes and the le m7. When simpson's first started posting here and announced they'd do some le's, we were all really excited. Sure, the excitement waned when we realized that the m7 would be fscking expensive, but, well, we wanted a top-notch brush. Now, it seems that anything simpson's does is somehow interpreted as price-gouging, viral marketing, shady dealing, undercutting honest, hardworking vendors...seriously, guys? Enough with the conspiracy theories already! :thumbdown

simpson's is working hard to give us beautiful limited-edition brushes, like we wanted, in a hobby where the normal news we see from vendors is top-quality products being either discontinued or reformulated in favor of cut-rate, overpriced alternatives. We've lately seen iridiums go off the market, we're bidding farewell to the aos rose line, we horde penhaligon's and trumper's tallow, but we attack a small company that's making a top-quality product especially for folks like us? It'd be nice to see a bit more appreciation for a vendor that's working with the community to continue delivering top-quality products.

Also, simpson's actually sells its entire catalog directly from their website. Plenty of companies sell directly...it's really not that unusual.



Seeing what the market will bear isn't "fleecing"; not in a capitalist economy, at any rate. Almost every product you see is priced at what the market will bear, as learned & adjusted over years of experience. In fact, any sort of discount you see, from physical coupons to discount codes to groupon, is just an attempt to price items at the maximum the market will bear for different market segments. For instance, a vendor might give a 10% discount code to b&b members because we're more likely to know about their competition and shop around, whereas less connected consumers would likely be willing to pay more for the same items...i've yet to see anybody complain about vendors offering too many b&b discounts, though. :laugh:

In short-term, limited-run terms, seeing what the market will bear is probably a good thing for everyone involved. For instance, if simpson's discovers that, because it's misjudging the market price of its les, it's only making, say, a 20% profit on the les vs a 30% profit on its regular-production brushes, it might decide to stop making les, since those resources would be better spent on normal brushes. We want quality businesses like simpson's to be as profitable as they can, so they can keep providing us with more great brushes for years to come!

+1

[huracan]

Fantastic looking brushes.....Is that the Simpson's shave cream I've been reading about? How's that coming along :biggrin1:?


Chubby 2, Colonel X2L & Duke 2 LE Ivory Fleck.

Limited availability in both Super & Best.

[email protected] for pricing & delivery information.

Thanks.

:001_smile

[DSB]

Beautiful brushes, Mark. Please keep up the good work!

[Blue-EyedSon]

Is that the Simpson's shave cream I've been reading about? How's that coming along :biggrin1:?

Good question! How about throwing in some of the new shaving cream with each order of a limited edition brush, Mark? :thumbup: :lol: I'm just kidding as it's probably not even ready for release yet. But it could be a great way of getting the product out for testing and reviews if it was ... just a thought ... :thumbup:

Also, is there any chance that some closer up and more detailed / clearer photos of the brush handles could be added? I can't quite get a good sense of the handle material from the existing photos. I can tell they look very nice, but it'd be helpful to see a little clearer photos.

[inkwell]

Number one thing that caught me about these is the beautiful more "fan-type" knots.....def interested in that duke 2, emailed!

[bluemantra]

Then again, were I a shaving-brush vendor, I'd also be pretty unhappy to see my supplier offer a beautiful LE brush solely through one of my competitors. Then again, I'd also be pretty unhappy to only be able to stock a couple of pieces, since the supplier had to divide a limited number of LE brushes among all the vendors that wanted to stock them. And, really, if a vendor was to get huffy, is there really anything he could do? Simpson's brushes are insanely popular in this community...ceasing to stock them would probably do more to drive away customers than to get revenge on Simpson's.

I'd normally be the last person to directly criticize a moderator -- I appreciate how difficult and thankless a job it is, and I'm really grateful for the hard work y'all do -- but I'm simply shocked at the negativity directed at Simpson's over these brushes and the LE M7. When Simpson's first started posting here and announced they'd do some LE's, we were all really excited. Sure, the excitement waned when we realized that the M7 would be fscking expensive, but, well, we wanted a top-notch brush. Now, it seems that anything Simpson's does is somehow interpreted as price-gouging, viral marketing, shady dealing, undercutting honest, hardworking vendors...seriously, guys? Enough with the conspiracy theories already! :thumbdown

Simpson's is working hard to give us beautiful limited-edition brushes, like we wanted, in a hobby where the normal news we see from vendors is top-quality products being either discontinued or reformulated in favor of cut-rate, overpriced alternatives. We've lately seen Iridiums go off the market, we're bidding farewell to the AoS Rose line, we horde Penhaligon's and Trumper's tallow, but we attack a small company that's making a top-quality product especially for folks like us? It'd be nice to see a bit more appreciation for a vendor that's working with the community to continue delivering top-quality products.

Also, Simpson's actually sells its entire catalog directly from their website. Plenty of companies sell directly...it's really not that unusual.



Seeing what the market will bear isn't "fleecing"; not in a capitalist economy, at any rate. Almost every product you see is priced at what the market will bear, as learned & adjusted over years of experience. In fact, any sort of discount you see, from physical coupons to discount codes to Groupon, is just an attempt to price items at the maximum the market will bear for different market segments. For instance, a vendor might give a 10% discount code to B&B members because we're more likely to know about their competition and shop around, whereas less connected consumers would likely be willing to pay more for the same items...I've yet to see anybody complain about vendors offering too many B&B discounts, though. :laugh:

In short-term, limited-run terms, seeing what the market will bear is probably a good thing for everyone involved. For instance, if Simpson's discovers that, because it's misjudging the market price of its LEs, it's only making, say, a 20% profit on the LEs vs a 30% profit on its regular-production brushes, it might decide to stop making LEs, since those resources would be better spent on normal brushes. We want quality businesses like Simpson's to be as profitable as they can, so they can keep providing us with more great brushes for years to come!

Um... yeah... what this guy said is how I feel. Thanks for putting my thoughts into words. I've been wondering why it seems Simpson's is getting jumped on lately.

[ben74]

Nice, I want one of each in super!

[Picaro]

If I were a retail vendor of shaving brushes it would make me unhappy to see my supplier consistently going around me to sell directly to my customers. Especially if he were also being secretive about pricing.

But then again, I'm not a vendor.


Just my 2¢.

Bravo Shavely. ! and Bravo Simpsons, a great company with a great product.

Certain words and phrases along the lines of protectionist and favourititism keep rattling round in my head...I could really get wound up about this.....

Rob, with great restraint...signing off.:angry:

[brucered]

ah man...i just ordered a Colonel in Best (not that i'm not happy) but these look intersting as well.

[Austin]

Gents, I am simply put off by the comments made about the mods. We work hard to keep this site running smoothly. We get attacked on a regular basis by members here and on other forums with accusations of being heavy handed, arrogant, etc. It does not sit well with me. There is a lot of activity going on behind the scenes that you gents do not know. I do not buy brushes. The last one I bought was 4 years ago. I don't get excited by the newest super duper offering no matter who offers it. Some of the mods are brush collectors. They have a right to their opinions. No conspiracy theories here.

[GreekGuy]

Gents, I am simply put off by the comments made about the mods. We work hard to keep this site running smoothly. We get attacked on a regular basis by members here and on other forums with accusations of being heavy handed, arrogant, etc. It does not sit well with me. There is a lot of activity going on behind the scenes that you gents do not know. I do not buy brushes. The last one I bought was 4 years ago. I don't get excited by the newest super duper offering no matter who offers it. Some of the mods are brush collectors. They have a right to their opinions. No conspiracy theories here.

Austin, I completely understand what you are saying. Just to add my 2 cents, I think sometimes it is difficult for members to discern when a Moderator is posting their opinion as a member, and when they are serving more in the "moderator" function. And perhaps some of the comments made were due to uncertainty in the capacity of which some thoughts were expressed

[Picaro]

I, for one, certainly did not point at Mods in any way. When I saw the post in question, i simply saw a member of some profile and, i presume influence. I didnt notice the mod badge 'til the 2nd or 3rd time i looked at the post.

And I certainly am not suggesting a conspiracy, but I have presumed the individual's motivation stemmed from ingrained attitudes which may be acceptable in a nationalistic environment, but not in an international community.

I may well be wrong in my assumption, but its the only response I came up with proceeding from a pretty strong reaction to the post.


In the meantime, it looks like there are no fan shapes in the LE's? 'Twould be nice.:thumbup1:

[kooshman7]

In this particular example, the brushes are not available through any other vendor, thus there is only the one source to get them from. No conflict of interest exists (my opinion).

In overall theory I agree with you, however this particular situation doesn't apply - YMMV.

+1 On this. I would say that I feel a base price could be listed. I could see why to e-mail as there is VAT and shipping to consider, and shipping can be more so annoying depending upon its destination, but if it were me I would simply have the info up and listed. Just a few minutes of extra work, but for me it's fine. Great looking brushes btw Mark! :thumbup1:

[ssultan]

Lovely brushes, if they did a 2-band CH2 or a CH3 I'd have placed my order right away :)

[Intrigued]

I have a Wee Scot and Duke 3 in best and an Emperor 3 in two-banded Super. It has been my plan to add a Chubby 2 in Super three-banded to my Simpsons family. Now seems like a great time to do it.

Chubby 2 LE Ivory Fleck in Super ordered! :thumbup:




http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=161377&stc=1&d=1304601255 http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=161378&stc=1&d=1304601272 :001_wub:

[brianw]

I have a Wee Scot and Duke 3 in best and an Emperor 3 in two-banded Super. It has been my plan to add a Chubby 2 in Super three-banded to my Simpsons family. Now seems like a great time to do it.

Chubby 2 LE Ivory Fleck in Super ordered! :thumbup:




http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=161377&stc=1&d=1304601255 http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=161378&stc=1&d=1304601272 :001_wub:


How much was it ???

[Shavely Manden]

How much was it ???

Here's the price-list as emailed to me...I'm hope Mark doesn't mind me sharing. (Actually, I ended up getting two price lists, one immediately after they were announced and another one a day or so ago...both were the same.)

Colonel X2L Best £60.00
Colonel X2L Super £95.00

Duke 2 Best £75.00
Duke 2 Super £105.00

Chubby 2 Best £125.00
Chubby 2 Super £165.00

Personally, I like the normal white handles more than the ivory fleck...I'm really tempted by the Colonel in Best (I've already got a Duke, and the Chubby's too much for me), but I'm saving my $$$ for the M7. :w00t:

[OldSaw]

I have a Wee Scot and Duke 3 in best and an Emperor 3 in two-banded Super. It has been my plan to add a Chubby 2 in Super three-banded to my Simpsons family. Now seems like a great time to do it.

Chubby 2 LE Ivory Fleck in Super ordered! :thumbup:

Or you could go to the grocery store and get a pint of Chubby Hubby (http://www.benjerry.com/flavors/our-flavors/). Or get several pints and serve them to your hubby and you will have your very own chubby hubby. :lol:

[Antique Hoosier]

I like the normal white handles more than the ivory fleck

Already the very best in the business I agree:thumbup1:

Ivory Fleck:thumbdown

Simpson/Vulfix:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[maxman]

You have to see them in person.
The pictures dont' do that handle justice.

[SirWhiskers]

Colonel X2L Best £60.00
Colonel X2L Super £95.00

Duke 2 Best £75.00
Duke 2 Super £105.00

Chubby 2 Best £125.00
Chubby 2 Super £165.00


Quite some prices! Now only if the numbers were in US$, maybe, just maybe I would be able to try a Simpson Super...

I hope they are as nice as the prices imply. Looking forward to the reviews.

[PozzSka]

As of 4pm EST on the 6th of May (according to the almighty Google) : 1pound = 1.64 dollars

SO:
Colonel X2L Best £60.00 = $98.40
Colonel X2L Super £95.00 = $155.80

Duke 2 Best £75.00 = $123.00
Duke 2 Super £105.00 = $172.20

Chubby 2 Best £125.00 = $205.00
Chubby 2 Super £165.00 = $270.60

Obviously, this could change at any time.

[Intrigued]

Personally, I like the normal white handles more than the ivory fleck...I'm really tempted by the Colonel in Best (I've already got a Duke, and the Chubby's too much for me), but I'm saving my $$$ for the M7. :w00t:

Oh, I'm ordering a M7 too. I ask Mark to hold off shipping the Chubby until it can make the trip with it's little brother. I swear, this is the end of my brush buying for a long time........ well as long as Mark and Gary don't offer a LE Wee Scot, 'cause then all bets are off. :lol::lol::lol:



Or you could go to the grocery store and get a pint of Chubby Hubby (http://www.benjerry.com/flavors/our-flavors/). Or get several pints and serve them to your hubby and you will have your very own chubby hubby. :lol:


I make him eat the 1/2 the fat kind of ice cream so he doesn't become a chubby hubby. :biggrin1:

[nole1]

As of 4pm EST on the 6th of May (according to the almighty Google) : 1pound = 1.64 dollars

SO:
Colonel X2L Best £60.00 = $98.40
Colonel X2L Super £95.00 = $155.80

Duke 2 Best £75.00 = $123.00
Duke 2 Super £105.00 = $172.20

Chubby 2 Best £125.00 = $205.00
Chubby 2 Super £165.00 = $270.60

Obviously, this could change at any time.

The question is whether that is VAT included or not. If it includes VAT, then for those of us state side, it should be about 20% cheaper. Right?

[franz]

The question is whether that is VAT included or not. If it includes VAT, then for those of us state side, it should be about 20% cheaper. Right?

Per the email I received from Mark, the quoted prices do not include VAT.

[OldSaw]

Oh, I'm ordering a M7 too. I ask Mark to hold off shipping the Chubby until it can make the trip with it's little brother. I swear, this is the end of my brush buying for a long time........ well as long as Mark and Gary don't offer a LE Wee Scot, 'cause then all bets are off. :lol::lol::lol:





I make him eat the 1/2 the fat kind of ice cream so he doesn't become a chubby hubby. :biggrin1:

I wish my wife had your zeal for shaving brushes. I guess I'll just have to settle for full flavored ice cream.

[denim]

So Vulfix/Simpson pays B&B to be an official Vendor and then gets chastised for trying to sell their product in the Vendor Corner :001_rolle.

Very nice point.

[inkwell]

i got the prices in this morning too, i was itchin for a duke 2, but 172 is just not an option for me....i dunno if its the increase of the raw material cost or the sad performance of the dollar, but i just cant do it for that, i could buy a duke 3 and still have 50 or 60 dollars to spare....congrats to those who scoop em up though, they look amazing!

[Shavely Manden]

i got the prices in this morning too, i was itchin for a duke 2, but 172 is just not an option for me....i dunno if its the increase of the raw material cost or the sad performance of the dollar, but i just cant do it for that, i could buy a duke 3 and still have 50 or 60 dollars to spare....congrats to those who scoop em up though, they look amazing!

~$1.60/GBP isn't really a bad exchange rate...it's not the $1.40 we had for a while, but much better than the $2+ we had to pay for quite a while there. Probably the raw materials cost is way higher (after all, they're buying the normal white rods in bulk, and probably paid a lot more for just a few ivory-fleck rods), and, of course, there's always going to be a premium on limited editions.

[SliceOfLife]

we are in the throws of launching some one off 'Simfix' brushes ... Crazy, mutated, off the wall, fun offerings ... who'd be up for one? -Twitter

I might be, depending on price and what exactly they were. Of course I'd be much more inclined to buy another brush if I knew what the GYLE was gonna be exactly both in form and price. *hint hint*

[TYdeFan05]

I might be, depending on price and what exactly they were. Of course I'd be much more inclined to buy another brush if I knew what the GYLE was gonna be exactly both in form and price. *hint hint*

Same here

[maxman]

I might be, depending on price and what exactly they were. Of course I'd be much more inclined to buy another brush if I knew what the GYLE was gonna be exactly both in form and price. *hint hint*

I hear ya. I'm interested in one that is wacky and off the wall.... but the GYLE looms close and puts everything else on hold.

We want information.....information.....information
(oh yeah, tossin' a little "The Prisoner" at ya)

[ssultan]

24mm knot...hmmm...

[hatmpita]

24mm Knot! Now we're talking!:thumbup:

[Velomane]

24mm knot...hmmm...

I saw that tweet, too. :tongue_smIs that the only info we have? Where are the damn photos?

[Harvitz81]

24mm knot...hmmm...


24mm Knot! Now we're talking!:thumbup:


I saw that tweet, too. :tongue_smIs that the only info we have? Where are the damn photos?

If that is true then I'm probably in...

[SliceOfLife]

Denser than a...


Do want.

[Harvitz81]

Denser than a...


Do want.

Yep, just read that as well. No way I can hold back now.

[maxman]

Time to start digging through the couch.
This sounds just my speed.

[TYdeFan05]

Time to start digging through the couch.
This sounds just my speed.

Same here...wish mine was a sectional.



From some digging, I'm seeing that the M7 used to have somewhere around a 23-24 mm knot with a 50 mm loft. Spill it :tongue_sm

[jgkeegan]

Lovely brushes, if they did a 2-band CH2 or a CH3 I'd have placed my order right away :)


Now that is an appealing thought.......

--james

[Bestarrkin]

The knot diameter sounds good to me. I hope the handle colour will be maroon-brown which is used in royal cars.

[maxman]

Pics are coming soon.
Can't wait. :thumbup1:

[Hex]

Yep, just read that as well. No way I can hold back now.

I saw that and was intrigued, especially since it is on the larger size at 24mm.

[denim]

I'm getting a bit sick of this. What is GYLE? Who actually uses Twitter? I don't.

Look Mark, if you want us to consider a brush, show us the freaking brush. Tell us the price, specs, and show us the image. Until it's more than vaporware, I, for one, am not interested. :mad3:

[nole1]

I'm getting a bit sick of this. What is GYLE? Who actually uses Twitter? I don't.

Look Mark, if you want us to consider a brush, show us the freaking brush. Tell us the price, specs, and show us the image. Until it's more than vaporware, I, for one, am not interested. :mad3:

:huh: Woosah... it's just a shaving brush... No need to get worked up about it.

[PozzSka]

What is GYLE? Who actually uses Twitter? I don't.


Gary Young Limited Edition (Gary Young is Alex Simpsons' great nephew).

Over 105 million people are registered on Twitter.

Hope that answers your questions.:001_rolle

[denim]

Gary Young Limited Edition

Hope that answers your questions.:001_rolle

Yep! No one important uses Twitter, and I know who Gary Young is, but at least the acronym is now defined. Thanks.

[PozzSka]

Yep! No one important uses Twitter, and I know who Gary Young is, but at least the acronym is now defined. Thanks.

The President uses Twitter...http://twitter.com/#!/BARACKOBAMA

I would argue (whether you like him or not) he is important. Haha!

:tongue_sm

[kmfrank]

Yeah, I came VERY close to biting the bullet on a Chubby 2 LE (I totally would have if it was offered in 2-band) but then I heard about the GYLE and...

[Shavely Manden]

Yep! No one important uses Twitter, and I know who Gary Young is, but at least the acronym is now defined. Thanks.

Heh...I'm sure a lot of Twitter users would say nobody hangs out on shaving forums. And, honestly, chill out...it's a shaving brush. If you don't want to follow the pre-release stuff, I'm sure there'll be an announcement when it's done.

[TYdeFan05]

Heh...I'm sure a lot of Twitter users would say nobody hangs out on shaving forums. And, honestly, chill out...it's a shaving brush. If you don't want to follow the pre-release stuff, I'm sure there'll be an announcement when it's done.

Agreed. It's not like it's paternity results or something. It's a work in progress and it's supposed to be fun. If anyone isn't a fan of the "dramatic" casual hints then wait around until the final unveil. For that matter, you don't even have to be a twitter subscriber. I put a link to it in the second post of the GYLE (Gary Young Limited Edition) thread and all the information is there. Outbursts like that have to be demotivating for someone trying to have a little fun with the development process.

[jkh]

It seems to me that the drama and hype of releasing tidbits of information is supposed to be fun.

[bbarton713]

it seems to me that the drama and hype of releasing tidbits of information is supposed to be fun.

+1

[bbarton713]

I'm getting a bit sick of this. What is GYLE? Who actually uses Twitter? I don't.

Look Mark, if you want us to consider a brush, show us the freaking brush. Tell us the price, specs, and show us the image. Until it's more than vaporware, I, for one, am not interested. :mad3:

I'm thinking that these types of reactions and attitudes are why some of this has moved to Twitter in the first place.

Since its inception in 2006 Twitter has gained about 200 million users with about 65 million tweets a day. News organizations and companies of all sorts use Twitter as a way to immediately disseminate and extract information that is important to them and their business. Everyday users are attracted to the text-like messages that are sent and received via the Internet. It is a vibrant part of what is considered social media. I hope that answers your question, unless your question was rhetorical and you were just venting your spleen. :w00t:

The start of this was to gauge interest and then it grew because everyone is interested and excited that Gary Young would be involved with such a venture. Take a look back at the December time frame and see how much excitement and fun was had by all when Gary joined and started sharing stories and knowledge about the Simpsons legacy.

I understand that everyone isn't the same which is why YMMV is part of our collective vocabs but bearing that in mind, realize that as much as it bugs you there are people out there (count me in this group) that thinks it is fun and exciting to see how this plays out. Consider that our reactions and feedback could be affecting the design so we're part of the design process, exciting! :w00t::w00t::w00t:

[Baloosh]

I'm thinking that these types of reactions and attitudes are why some of this has moved to Twitter in the first place.

Since its inception in 2006 Twitter has gained about 200 million users with about 65 million tweets a day. News organizations and companies of all sorts use Twitter as a way to immediately disseminate and extract information that is important to them and their business. Everyday users are attracted to the text-like messages that are sent and received via the Internet. It is a vibrant part of what is considered social media. I hope that answers your question, unless your question was rhetorical and you were just venting your spleen. :w00t:

The start of this was to gauge interest and then it grew because everyone is interested and excited that Gary Young would be involved with such a venture. Take a look back at the December time frame and see how much excitement and fun was had by all when Gary joined and started sharing stories and knowledge about the Simpsons legacy.

I understand that everyone isn't the same which is why YMMV is part of our collective vocabs but bearing that in mind, realize that as much as it bugs you there are people out there (count me in this group) that thinks it is fun and exciting to see how this plays out. Consider that our reactions and feedback could be affecting the design so we're part of the design process, exciting! :w00t::w00t::w00t:

But... but... but... *I* don't like it, and thus I immediately dismiss the entirety of the concept! And I'm getting all :cursing:HULK SMASH:cursing: about it on an Internet forum!!! :mad3: GGGGRRRRRrrrrrr


:wink2:

[maxman]

Please I'm begging you guys... don't have this one locked.
It's just not fair that eveything from Simpson is seen as evil in advertising.

Please. Imagine a guy on his knees begging and typing.
It's a ugly sight I assure you.

[bbarton713]

But... but... but... *I* don't like it, and thus I immediately dismiss the entirety of the concept! And I'm getting all :cursing:HULK SMASH:cursing: about it on an Internet forum!!! :mad3: GGGGRRRRRrrrrrr
:wink2:

:lol::lol::lol:

[Merv]

I do not twitter nor am I planning on buying the new brush--BUT I am enjoying to the pleasure of others who are excited about the new Gary Young Edition. New "toys" are always exciting. New additions to the Simpson Line is exciting to witness.

[MajorBurnz]

I don't want to jump down 'denim's' throat, but, if you look at the posts on this thread, you'll see that Mark makes no mention at all about the GYLE brush, so it seems strange to be admonishing him about it.

He came on here to announce the release of the LE brushes in ivory fleck. He did that, and stuck to the B&B rules as far as I can see. It was other members who brought up the GYLE brush.

----

To get back on topic: I like these brushes. They look elegant, but I won't be spending the $$$ on them. I'm not going to pay extra money for a handle. If the grade of hair or the density were different from a regular Simpsons, then perhaps I'd be interested, but the Chubby (which is the one I like) is already available in those grades of hair.

[huracan]

Please I'm begging you guys... don't have this one locked.
It's just not fair that everything from Simpson is seen as evil in advertising.

Please. Imagine a guy on his knees begging and typing.
It's a ugly sight I assure you.

Too funny.

Hope this helps, my genie here will attempt to wave off all unreasonable posts before they happen.

:sorcerer:

[denim]

I hope that answers your question, unless your question was rhetorical and you were just venting your spleen. :w00t:
Mostly. I don't tweet. I'm not a twit... usually. I've always been reluctant to use Facebook, let alone something even more annoying.



The start of this was to gauge interest and then it grew because everyone is interested and excited that Gary Young would be involved with such a venture. Take a look back at the December time frame and see how much excitement and fun was had by all when Gary joined and started sharing stories and knowledge about the Simpsons legacy.
Me too. It's just that he and Mark are seeming more like a tease. I think I'll just tune out until they have product ready to sell. I'm not a big fan of getting all excited just to get priced out.

[denim]

I don't want to jump down 'denim's' throat, but, if you look at the posts on this thread, you'll see that Mark makes no mention at all about the GYLE brush, so it seems strange to be admonishing him about it.
I'm not sure that I was. It was more "wtf are these people talking about," and "Twitter? If it's on Twitter, I'll never see it." but nevermind.


To get back on topic: I like these brushes. They look elegant, but I won't be spending the $$$ on them. I'm not going to pay extra money for a handle. If the grade of hair or the density were different from a regular Simpsons, then perhaps I'd be interested, but the Chubby (which is the one I like) is already available in those grades of hair.

Oh gosh but I agree with this! Maybe if the handle was actual ivory or ebony or made out of bone harvested from Paul McCartney. ...nevermind that last. :mellow:

[MajorBurnz]

Mostly. I don't tweet. I'm not a twit... usually. I've always been reluctant to use Facebook, let alone something even more annoying.



Me too. It's just that he and Mark are seeming more like a tease. I think I'll just tune out until they have product ready to sell. I'm not a big fan of getting all excited just to get priced out.

Agreed, on both points. I don't use Facebook or Twitter much (though I do have accounts), but I can't fault Mark for publicizing his forthcoming products there.

Also, while I'm potentially interested in the GYLE, I also think this teasing has not been handled well. It may have beet better to gauge interest, then say 'no more updates for 3 months', then show a prototype, mention the price and go ahead and sell the brushes.

The long, drawn out suspense with piecemeal information release is irritating me more than it's whetting my appetite for the brush.

[A. E. Simpson 1919]

GYLE prototype ...

60mm handle, 55mm loft (two band shown), 24mm knot.

The brush will not be manufactured in Cream, nor two band. This is purely a mock up.

Posted purely & simply to give you a handle shape taster & anticipated specs.

The actual grade of hair being used is in transit & the rod colour a secret at this stage.

Hope you like. I've held her in my hand and, oh my ...

No doubt I'll be castigated again by a few for imparting information here.

Daily updates on twitter.

[bbarton713]

GYLE prototype ...

60mm handle, 55mm loft (two band shown), 24mm knot.

The brush will not be manufactured in Cream, nor two band. This is purely a mock up.

Posted purely & simply to give you a handle shape taster & anticipated specs.

The actual grade of hair being used is in transit & the rod colour a secret at this stage.

Hope you like. I've held her in my hand and, oh my ...

No doubt I'll be castigated again by a few for imparting information here.

Daily updates on twitter.

Love what we see so far, Mark! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[maxman]

She's a pretty one, that's for sure.
You won't hear unkind words from me.
Thanks for sharing.

[JPDyson]

It does look rather nice - perhaps a slightly different shape from the M7 (and my own AS2) - I expected more curve in the lower portion. Of course, my chips are off the table at the price point, so take that for what it's worth.

[GreekGuy]

That sure is a nice looking brush :001_tt1:

I'm looking forward to hearing more details as they become available

[Shavely Manden]

GYLE prototype ...

60mm handle, 55mm loft (two band shown), 24mm knot.

The brush will not be manufactured in Cream, nor two band. This is purely a mock up.

Posted purely & simply to give you a handle shape taster & anticipated specs.

The actual grade of hair being used is in transit & the rod colour a secret at this stage.

Hope you like. I've held her in my hand and, oh my ...

No doubt I'll be castigated again by a few for imparting information here.

Daily updates on twitter.

Oh, that's beautiful. So, now we know that the special grade isn't normal two-band, so it's going to one-up the Astor...oh, I'm excited! :w00t:

Normally, a 24mm brush wouldn't be my thing...I think I'll likely make an exception, however...:tongue_sm

[Blue-EyedSon]

The brush looks great! I look forward to seeing the final product!!

[Greyfox]

Looking good to me.

[Harvitz81]

Really interested to hear the grade of badger that will be used. Sounds like it will be different than the current 3 top grades of Simpson's regular stock. Hope it has enough backbone at a 55mm loft though. Hope it also is as dense as a Rooney Finest.

[bbarton713]

It does look rather nice - perhaps a slightly different shape from the M7 (and my own AS2) - I expected more curve in the lower portion. Of course, my chips are off the table at the price point, so take that for what it's worth.

Here's a picture of my AS2M after I had it reknotted by Mark and crew! Just so you can see what JPDyson was talking about in terms of the shape of the new handle.

[maxman]

I've been waiting for the best bowl/scuttle brush.
this might just be the ticket.
I'm getting a little tired of custom face lathering brushes.
I do face lather, but i'd like an extra fine brush for the scuttle.

[TYdeFan05]

Very nice.

[kaban]

Very elegant brush, beautiful

[Bestarrkin]

Thank you for the pictures, Mark. GYLE prototype seems good to me. I wish that base could be a little wider and height of neck portion is somehow short but those are not problems. The knot seems to have enough backbone at 55mm. This brush is so interesting and keeps my interest to the final product.

[kbuzbee]

Hope it has enough backbone at a 55mm loft though. Hope it also is as dense as a Rooney Finest.

I'm with you, Joe. Looks like 48 would be a better loft:lol: but that's just me.

Nice Picture, Mark!

Ken

[ctkelly]

Thank you for the pictures, Mark. GYLE prototype seems good to me. I wish that base could be a little wider and height of neck portion is somehow short but those are not problems. The knot seems to have enough backbone at 55mm. This brush is so interesting and keeps my interest to the final product.

Uh....how can you tell that 55mm the knot will have enough backbone? The knot in the photo is not the one they are going to use, its a mock up.

Too high loft, high price tag, not a 2 band breed of hair. I'm out on this one.

I agree, 48mm would have been better in my book.

[Shavely Manden]

I find it a bit odd that folks are second-guessing Simpson's on the loft. Simpson's seems to have a pretty good track record in terms of loft settings...I'm tempted to trust them on this one, or at least wait to see it with the final hair.

[franz]

Thanks for the prototype, Mark! GYLE looks like a great project so far.


I find it a bit odd that folks are second-guessing Simpson's on the loft. Simpson's seems to have a pretty good track record in terms of loft settings...I'm tempted to trust them on this one, or at least wait to see it with the final hair.

For my own preferences, 24mm knot set at 55 would sound too high. I can understand where the concerns are coming from. But it depends on the hair used, maybe it won't bloom at all :001_tongu

[Bestarrkin]

Uh....how can you tell that 55mm the knot will have enough backbone? The knot in the photo is not the one they are going to use, its a mock up.

Too high loft, high price tag, not a 2 band breed of hair. I'm out on this one.

I agree, 48mm would have been better in my book.

I want to say it will have enough backbone even if it has not 2 band hair or it will become an expensive cream brush. My assumption was based on 50-52mm at most. Yet the biggest question about this brush is not answered. Which hair type will have they used?

[TYdeFan05]

Thanks for the prototype, Mark! GYLE looks like a great project so far.



For my own preferences, 24mm knot set at 55 would sound too high. I can understand where the concerns are coming from. But it depends on the hair used, maybe it won't bloom at all :001_tongu

This is true. I have a copper scrub brush that has bloomed after dozens of uses. :w00t:

[jkh]

Mark, thanks for the update. That is a mighty regal looking brush, very nice. Is that knot shape the bulb/fan hybrid? I know you probably aren't taking requests or feedback for this project, but I think a number of folks would really like to see more of traditional Simpson fan shaped knot.

Thank you for sharing! I am looking forward to future updates.

[maxman]

The loft is less than my Rooney 3/2 which is a delight for my scuttle.
I think it's perfect the way it is.

[Perished]

Chaps, can someone tell me exactly what a 'rod' is then? Keep it clean...

[maxman]

Chaps, can someone tell me exactly what a 'rod' is then? Keep it clean...

The material the handle will be made from.
Mark has something special for this particular brush.

[mcgee]

Great looking brush, really nicely shaped handle. It has essentially the same dimensions as the Semogue 2000, which is a beast of a brush. I am very curious about a badger brush in those dimensions. Thanks for the update!

[Xman74]

Looks perfect, Mark!

[Perished]

The material the handle will be made from.
Mark has something special for this particular brush.

Cheers

[ouch]

No doubt I'll be castigated again by a few for imparting information here.

Wow.

[ssultan]

It seems to be taking design elements from the original rather than a direct copy of it. I personally prefer the original as I do larger knots so am undecided about this brush. I didn't particularly take to the ivory fleck even though I know a lot of folks love it, will wait and see what Mark has in store for us. I just wish this had been a larger knot...but it appears the ongoing trend is increasingly towards smaller brushes...

[Baloosh]

Wow.

I was wondering when someone would notice and/or comment on that one. :sad:

[vertelselaar]

Very interesting indeed. I'm really curious how things pan out. Nice work!

[GreekGuy]

I was wondering when someone would notice and/or comment on that one. :sad:

Guys, lets please please pretty please keep this on topic. Some of us NEED brush porn....

[captp]

Let the naysayers castigate away, I kind of love the anticipation. I'm still on the fence about the Gary Young LE, but I'm liking the handle shape and overall size a lot; a wee bit smaller than my PJ2 with a slightly bigger knot. I forget the price point, but do remember it's way up there; if I like the final product, I doubt the price will put me off.

Anyone willing to repeat the approx price?

[GreekGuy]

Anyone willing to repeat the approx price?

I think it was mentioned that it will be ~£150

[maxman]

Let the naysayers castigate away, I kind of love the anticipation. I'm still on the fence about the Gary Young LE, but I'm liking the handle shape and overall size a lot; a wee bit smaller than my PJ2 with a slightly bigger knot. I forget the price point, but do remember it's way up there; if I like the final product, I doubt the price will put me off.

Anyone willing to repeat the approx price?

Depending on the exchange at the time it was around $240 USD
I think that was shipped, but I'm not sure.

[nole1]

I believe it was in the ballpark of $225+

[maxman]

Not too far off the price of a Kent BK 8 I might add.
Now they come in a fancy box....

[GreekGuy]

Not too far off the price of a Kent BK 8 I might add.
Now they come in a fancy box....

But the money you would spend for the Kent box is instead going to stuff this brush with extra badger hair :wink2:

[Perished]

I'll wait and see the final product. Has to be 'better' than my Simpsons Douglas to justify buying it, the Douglas is a mean brush, and I've just ordered a Simpsons chubby 2 in best.

I'm intrigued though by the hair used, softer than regular super badger aye... Mmmm, soft.
Ah who am I kidding, of course I'm gonna buy one! Stick a Simpsons sticker on a dog turd and I'd ask 'how much'?

So come on Simpsons, quicker the better. I'd like to see this brush in production BEFORE the Playstation Network is back up, so you've got till 2078 before I go buy a Thater!!

[BRuhling]

Ah who am I kidding, of course I'm gonna buy one! Stick a Simpsons sticker on a dog turd and I'd ask 'how much'?


I'm game. I'll sell you one for $150... :001_tt2:

[Shavely Manden]

For my own preferences, 24mm knot set at 55 would sound too high. I can understand where the concerns are coming from. But it depends on the hair used, maybe it won't bloom at all :001_tongu

It sounds too high to me, too, but I'm holding off judgement because Simpson's has a great track record with density & backbone (ala Chubby and Eagle), they know what demographic they're targeting with this brush (and that we value density and backbone), and Gary's got enough faith in the brush to have his name on it, and that's a fellow that shaves with a CH2 every day, so he probably also values density & backbone. If this were a company with a history of making floppy cream brushes (say, Kent or Vie-Long), I'd probably have written this brush off already, but Simpson's tends to make good brushes (even relatively lofty ones, e.g. the Harvard H4).


Wow.

Hey, I'd feel that way in his shoes. We can be a pretty demanding crowd, sometimes. :tongue_sm

[maxman]

Hey, I'd feel that way in his shoes. We can be a pretty demanding crowd, sometimes. :tongue_sm

I'm only demanding when it comes to food.

[40boy]

Looks good Mark!

Looking forward to the final product.

So, can I buy that prototype? :w00t::w00t:

[Perished]

I'm game. I'll sell you one for $150... :001_tt2:

I'll take two!!

[MajorBurnz]

Well, it's nice to see this brush coming together. I now feel bad about my previous (peevish) post. :blushing: Sorry, Mark.

I'm not convinced about the loft, but will wait to see what the final product looks like and what they describe the hair to be like.

[captp]

I think it was mentioned that it will be ~£150


Depending on the exchange at the time it was around $240 USD
I think that was shipped, but I'm not sure.

Thanks, guys. That's about what I was thinking. A serious possibility, as long as I don't have to order and pay before the final design comes out. I'm liking it more and more; that's a big piece of my tax return, but doable.

[hatmpita]

Nice looking brush! Can't wait to see the final brush with the proposed hair type in it!:001_tt1:

[SliceOfLife]

So the jist of what I'm gathering is this...

That handle in some special mystery colored and/or patterned rod stock.

24mm knot 55mm loft

Today's equivalent of the "Manchurian" hair (extra high grade, soft super).

Cost in the $200-250 USD ballpark.

[joel]

GYLE prototype ...

60mm handle, 55mm loft (two band shown), 24mm knot.

The brush will not be manufactured in Cream, nor two band. This is purely a mock up.

Posted purely & simply to give you a handle shape taster & anticipated specs.

The actual grade of hair being used is in transit & the rod colour a secret at this stage.

Hope you like. I've held her in my hand and, oh my ...

No doubt I'll be castigated again by a few for imparting information here.

Daily updates on twitter.

:001_rolle the childish, ungentlemanly, snarky remarks simply will not be tolerated and will not go unchecked. You're embarrassing your brand and acting foolish. Play nice and act like a gentleman, or you'll be leaving the playground.

I will happily discuss your inability to follow the rules here on B&B in public if you feel you need to bring it to the communities attention as you've done so here, but I can't imagine that positions your company in a positive light. You've also made it clear by explicitly stating to myself and other moderators you are only here to promote this limited edition brush, which to me, is a tremendous let down.

It's as simple as this - you're the only vendor on B&B making snarky comments, disobeying the rules, and being rude to moderators both in private and in the open forum. You will stop, or you will leave.

[A. E. Simpson 1919]

Hi Joel,

We'll play by the rules, understood.

I must bring a point of order though.

Your second paragraph is factually incorrect. We are not here solely to promote product. I receive numerous PM's in regards brush specs, QC matters, words of kindness & support, general shaving advice etc etc. I do my best to get around to answering everyone in addition to emails from B&B members within a 24hr timeframe.

We are caught between a rock and a hardplace in terms of posting in the 'Shaving Brush' arena as anything said there, could be misconstrued as underhand marketing. I prefer if members contact me via email or PM as that way the issue is avoided.

If you feel our presence here is unwelcome, please delete our account. If not, please respect our position here also.

Mark



:001_rolle the childish, ungentlemanly, snarky remarks simply will not be tolerated and will not go unchecked. You're embarrassing your brand and acting foolish. Play nice and act like a gentleman, or you'll be leaving the playground.

I will happily discuss your inability to follow the rules here on B&B in public if you feel you need to bring it to the communities attention as you've done so here, but I can't imagine that positions your company in a positive light. You've also made it clear by explicitly stating to myself and other moderators you are only here to promote this limited edition brush, which to me, is a tremendous let down.

It's as simple as this - you're the only vendor on B&B making snarky comments, disobeying the rules, and being rude to moderators both in private and in the open forum. You will stop, or you will leave.

[nav]

Your second paragraph is factually incorrect. We are not here solely to promote product. I receive numerous PM's in regards brush specs, QC matters, words of kindness & support, general shaving advice etc etc. I do my best to get around to answering everyone in addition to emails from B&B members within a 24hr timeframe.


Mark

Yep. Mark has been great with non-product sales aspects of his membership. He has helped members with info, great customer service and even offering a member a tour of the factory. This is fantastic to see from a vendor!

Plus, Simpson brushes are awesome!!!

[MajorBurnz]

Joel -

I didn't want to get involved in the issues the mods have with Mark, and perhaps there's stuff I'm not aware of, but I did follow the 'LE announcement' thread and this one and I can say that Mark's comment (while it was snarky) was probably warranted (judging by the comments made by some mods in his threads).

It seems to me that mods have a responsibility (because of their position and influence) to moderate their comments in open forum - because of the bad impression a negative comment can make. I know you guys have a thankless job, because we don't see what communications you have with the members off the open forum, but it does look like some vendors get targeted more than others.

The first post by a mod in this thread was a negative one that was pretty dumb (when you think about it). A manufacturer offering a 'special item' 'not available in stores' is not something strange. There were some comments about that later, but no explanation or retraction by the mod. Later comments by other mods were also not positive, and some were not warranted.

If Mark felt harried by these posts, I can understand that - and by extension, I can understand his post (though it would have been better not to say that).

-----

Look at this thread. What did Mark say: Here are some Limited Edition brushes that you can only buy directly from us. Contact me for pricing.

- Nothing strange here - yet some people took exception with it.

- Then they attacked the fact that the prices were not listed. Big deal! You contact the seller, ask for the prices and post them here.

- Almost every comment by a mod in this thread has attacked the seller directly or indirectly. (There's probably a reason for this, but it's not transparent in the thread.) Still, can you blame the seller for getting irritated about this?

-----

Finally, this is a vendor forum. Vendors sell stuff. So they promote their wares. Some vendors may be less obvious about it than others, but at the end of the day - they sell stuff, and want to convince you to buy things.

-----

Please don't take this as an attack on the mods. It's not meant to be. It's just me saying that if people replied to my posts in the manner that some people here have replied to Mark's, I'd probably have written something similar to what he did in reply.

Oh! And I'm not a fanboy here. I was interested in buying the LE brush, but it's probably going to be out of my price range. I also pointed out that some aspects of the promotion of this brush could have been handled better. I just hate it when it seems like someone is being ganged up on.

[DustBow]

The handle looks like the spawn of an Emperor and B&B LE '08 :)

[Merv]

This probably could have been done by a PM. "Food for Thought".

[Merv]

This probably could have been done by a PM. "Food for Thought".

My remark was about Moderator and Vendors discussions of policy.

[Perished]

:001_rolle the childish, ungentlemanly, snarky remarks simply will not be tolerated and will not go unchecked. You're embarrassing your brand and acting foolish. Play nice and act like a gentleman, or you'll be leaving the playground.

I will happily discuss your inability to follow the rules here on B&B in public if you feel you need to bring it to the communities attention as you've done so here, but I can't imagine that positions your company in a positive light. You've also made it clear by explicitly stating to myself and other moderators you are only here to promote this limited edition brush, which to me, is a tremendous let down.

It's as simple as this - you're the only vendor on B&B making snarky comments, disobeying the rules, and being rude to moderators both in private and in the open forum. You will stop, or you will leave.

Normally wouldn't bother taking any side, and I'm not going to here, but having followed this 'LE' brush and all its fuss, if anyone is acting childishly, ungentlemanly and bringing anything in disrepute, it's the B&B moderators, and this paragraph by 'Joel'. Surely you should keep matters like this private?
Plus I think 'mods' openly attacking a vendor for, good god, VENDING is quite frankly bizarre.

I notice no such castigation when it comes to Rudy Vey, SCS, Bob's Razor Works...

I like Badger and Blade, i really do. i enjoy reading the forums and especially the reviews. I've bought brushes from the likes of Rudy and razors from Bob because I read about them on here.
I like the site so much i even contribute financially to help with the running of it. Not much but still, it's something.
But, in my opinion, based on various thread I've read through over the months I've been on here, there's an impression given that 'it's our way or the high way' with the mods here.
Or, to put it another way, if they like you/your brand, fine do what you want, but step on their toes and it's a 'get out of our playground'.

Now that is childish.

Simpsons going on the 'banned vendor list' any time soon? Wouldn't surprise me the way the Simpsons threads are being attacked OFFICIALLY.




Looks like I did choose a side :angry:

[joel]

Yep. Mark has been great with non-product sales aspects of his membership. He has helped members with info, great customer service and even offering a member a tour of the factory. This is fantastic to see from a vendor!

Plus, Simpson brushes are awesome!!!

Direct quote from Mark:


"My decision to go as a vendor was based purely and simply to inform forum members of up and coming Limted Edition brushes that are going into production."

[ssultan]

Guys...let's all breath and count to 10...seriously...aren't we taking this a bit too far...

[Baloosh]

Ugh. This thread has devolved into the ugly... for everyone involved. :bored:


Hope we can all get as much info as possible on the LE brushes, and everyone makes his/her own decision. :thumbup1:

[JPDyson]

Direct quote from Mark:

Hey, Joel - just a semantical problem at this point, really. Mark did say in that quote "as a vendor". Perhaps he meant that springing for Vendor status was for product promotion, but that general presence here on B&B is not. This seems consistent with history and his statements.

I'm not defending the remark (it struck me as untoward) just offering a way to see this that makes sense of both sides.

[A. E. Simpson 1919]

Joel,

I'm here both as a businessman & an information source, wearing two caps if you like.

I'll leave others to judge who's being childish or out of line ...

Quite frankly, this sideshow is ridiculous and your not the first Moderator on here to point a disparaging finger our way either.

That 'person' was PM'd ... I didn't even receive a response. 'He' went into hiding after mouthing off ...

Not good, not good at all.

Let's try and move on?

[MajorBurnz]

Direct quote from Mark:

Why the (implied) indignation at a vendor saying that he's here to sell stuff? Isn't that the purpose of the vendor forum? :blink:

I, for one, am happy when WCS posts that they have stuff in stock or on sale, or Bullgoose announces that he's got a 'special' Simpsons brush available. How's that different from Mark announcing that he has LE brushes coming up?

If you don't want commercialization of the Vendor forum, you'd have to ban all the vendors.

[Greyfox]

Joel,

I'm here both as a businessman & an information source, wearing two caps if you like.

I'll leave others to judge who's being childish or out of line ...

Quite frankly, this sideshow is ridiculous and your not the first Moderator on here to point a disparaging finger our way either.

That 'person' was PM'd ... I didn't even receive a response. 'He' went into hiding after mouthing off ...

Not good, not good at all.

Let's try and move on?

Amen to that.

[psram]

:001_rolle the childish, ungentlemanly, snarky remarks simply will not be tolerated and will not go unchecked. You're embarrassing your brand and acting foolish. Play nice and act like a gentleman, or you'll be leaving the playground.
:redface: For some reason, I expected much much better from you than this.


Direct quote from Mark:
"My decision to go as a vendor was based purely and simply to inform forum members of up and coming Limted Edition brushes that are going into production."
I see many other vendors do just this. Inform about existing/new-products-in-the-pipeline and request members to go to their respective sites and purchase. I am not referring to vendors who essentially resell other products, but those who produce their own.

In this particular case, I see a particular vendor getting chastised for trying to (transparently) do the same, and a moderator implicitly suggesting to him on how to distribute wares.

Can you kindly explain what the difference is between these two cases (from a rules perspective)?.

[MajorBurnz]

Amen to that.

Yep. Let's move on.

Even though I won't be buying the GYLE brush (the resulting divorce would make it an expensive proposition) - I look forward to seeing the final product.

Bob - if you ever sell that AS2M, look me up. :lol:

[joel]

Joel -

I didn't want to get involved in the issues the mods have with Mark, and perhaps there's stuff I'm not aware of, but I did follow the 'LE announcement' thread and this one and I can say that Mark's comment (while it was snarky) was probably warranted (judging by the comments made by some mods in his threads).

It seems to me that mods have a responsibility (because of their position and influence) to moderate their comments in open forum - because of the bad impression a negative comment can make. I know you guys have a thankless job, because we don't see what communications you have with the members off the open forum, but it does look like some vendors get targeted more than others.

The first post by a mod in this thread was a negative one that was pretty dumb (when you think about it). A manufacturer offering a 'special item' 'not available in stores' is not something strange. There were some comments about that later, but no explanation or retraction by the mod. Later comments by other mods were also not positive, and some were not warranted.

If Mark felt harried by these posts, I can understand that - and by extension, I can understand his post (though it would have been better not to say that).

-----

Look at this thread. What did Mark say: Here are some Limited Edition brushes that you can only buy directly from us. Contact me for pricing.

- Nothing strange here - yet some people took exception with it.

- Then they attacked the fact that the prices were not listed. Big deal! You contact the seller, ask for the prices and post them here.

- Almost every comment by a mod in this thread has attacked the seller directly or indirectly. (There's probably a reason for this, but it's not transparent in the thread.) Still, can you blame the seller for getting irritated about this?

-----

Finally, this is a vendor forum. Vendors sell stuff. So they promote their wares. Some vendors may be less obvious about it than others, but at the end of the day - they sell stuff, and want to convince you to buy things.

-----

Please don't take this as an attack on the mods. It's not meant to be. It's just me saying that if people replied to my posts in the manner that some people here have replied to Mark's, I'd probably have written something similar to what he did in reply.

Oh! And I'm not a fanboy here. I was interested in buying the LE brush, but it's probably going to be out of my price range. I also pointed out that some aspects of the promotion of this brush could have been handled better. I just hate it when it seems like someone is being ganged up on.

First of all - love the feedback, i'm always open to both positive, and constructive feedback, it's the only way we learn and the only way we grow.

Onto this issue at hand and your comments.

1.) There are a lot of things you are unaware of, and that weren't dealt with in public. As you may or may not know, there are different "levels" of vendorship available, hence the different color badges. Vendors get very specific benefits based on their "level" and are expected to follow the guidelines outlined for that level. You see, when they exceed these levels, grossly - it causes a substantial problem, as other vendors who are at the same level, or a higher level than the vendor/manufacturer violating these guidelines get upset, and rightfully so - as what's to stop them from doing the same, and why aren't we policing the offending vendor to keep things fair? 99.9% of the time when a moderator politely asks a member OR vendor to follow the rules, or maintain their activities within our provided and agreed upon guidelines, they promptly apologize (as it's usually a complete mistake or miscommunication). .1% of the time, they argue, complain, call foul play, go to other sites/communities and publicly complain/attack us, etc. Again, this is a TINY minority, and this small .1% causes 95% of the stress/work we deal with. Do some vendors get targeted more than others? YES! - but this is due to two things 1.) the way they react to our request 2.) their failure to comply to our requests and/or the guidelines set forth. Frankly, the biggest issue was that we didn't address this quick enough BECAUSE it is Simpson, and the result of asking a company of this nature to comply has historically been problematic - but this is unfair to our other vendors, and isn't reasonable.

2.) RE: the first mods comment. I don't think it's fair to say it's "dumb" and I don't want to debate the pro's and con's of it, but did it add value to the conversation? No. Did it need to be said? No. But was it likely spurred by things going on "behind the scenes?" - yes, I know it for a fact. This doesn't change the fact that it was written, and if it were a perfect world, it wouldn't have. We're only human, we all have emotions, and none of us like to get the finger behind the scenes, and have little recourse/power to respond. A private back and forth results in nothing, and a public discourse immediately causes members to support a brand they love, and understandably so. Point blank - this is a horrifically miserable job, and that's why until about 2 weeks ago, I hadn't gotten involved in ANY member/mod issues for 2+ years. I'd rather stick my finger in a pencil sharpener.

3.) Confrontation. For some it's easy, almost natural. For others, it's to be avoided like the plague. Your post is a beautiful example. Clearly, you have no problem with confrontation and have gone about it in a direct, gentlemanly and productive manner. For others though, you must realize, they look for forum leaders, moderators and others to fight their fights for them, and there is no shame in that. B&B is here for everyone's enjoyment, and only the truly deranged enjoy regular confrontation. What am I getting at? Public outcry is almost always done in private (don't you love the irony?). If no one complains, and there are no issues, mods don't get involved. There are over 130K posts in the mod forum, and rest assured, NO ONE has the time, energy or desire to look for trouble. When we get 10, 20, 30 PM's/emails and growing on a subject/issue/matter - we jump on it, hence the report a post feature here. Doing so starts a thread in the mod forum, and alerts us via email. So moving along - what's my point? A lot more folks are pissed off than you'd think, and they're coming to us about it. Hawking a "product" that didn't have any real information on it, pricing, etc to those who are versed in marketing is testing the market. It's increasing demand and increasing value. If they have tens of thousands of views in their threads, and hundreds of fellas frothing at the mouth, they can charge more. If they release a product with NO fanfare and merely say "Here it is, here are the specs and here is the cost" the months of excitement (which translate into value) to the prospective buyer are all but lost. There is an overwhelming number of vendors AND MEMBERS who feel this is a seedy proactive and does not better the community. If EVERY manufacturer/vendor did this, frankly it would be miserable, and the vendor forum would quickly lose its value. They're getting away with it because of their name/reputation and the resulting excitement/loyalty the community has over their product - but if a new soaper were to come onto the site (or an existing one) and do something along these lines, there would be vocal, and ungentlemanly "tarring and feathering." Know how I know this? It's happened dozens of times. Simply put - this sets an unfair president, it is unfair/unreasonable to other vendors/manufacturers and it is NOT in the communal, open spirit of B&B.

4.) RE: being ganged up on. I understand your willingness to "fight for the underdog" and frankly, I too have the same mentality, but in this instance, this is not the case. Mark has violated our rules, ignored our requests, has been rude, argumentative and ungentlemanly, and has proceeded to publicly speak poorly of us elsewhere. He's also made comments intimating how the community will respond to our actions. Playing the victim is one of the most effective means of garnering public support and figure this - what would the reaction be if he didn't? Wouldn't he irreparably damage his business by saying "I refused to follow the guidelines I agreed to, I refused to listen to gentlemanly mod requests, I bad mouthed these guys in public and cried injustice, then proceeded to make snide comments on THEIR forum as a nice little middle finger" - would you do business with that company? I would and will NEVER. The rules/guidelines are in place to be followed... enforcing them is not cause for crying wolf, and failure to adhere to them, is also not cause to be "the victim." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, naturally your conclusion may be different.

5.) This being public. There have been quite a few PM exchanges both with me and other mods. Snarky comments by Mark have been made in public casting an evil shadow on the team here, and a snarky comment was posted here, in this thread, within our community. While I understand some of you feel this should be handled in private, this situation is cause for extenuating circumstances. In the 6 years of me being on B&B, I can count the number of situations like these being out in the public on one hand. We have an unparalleled reputation for dealing with these situations in a gentlemanly manner, and there will be changes in upcoming weeks (which will be made public) to further this goal. With more than 3 MILLION posts and hundreds of thousands of daily visitors, the amount of "moderation" that is seen by the public is nearly non-existent. We break our backs, sacrifice countless opportunities, personal relationships and time to deal with these situations... all while not being paid. Well - why do you care? For us to bring something like this out into the public, means there are some wild circumstances, and the situation is SO extreme that it warrants a public response. Please, don't misunderstand or take this lightly. All a man, community or company has is its reputation and its track record. Look at ours, and you'll quickly find ours is remarkably clean, given the activity we deal with (don't just look at member #'s look at posts). This is no witch hunt, this is us getting beat up in private, and in public, and us drawing the line, and showing we've had enough and will not tolerate it. If you feel vendors/members should be allowed to not follow rules, argue with mods, be disrespectful, bash us in private and in public on other sites, then make snarky comments here - then unfortunately, with my hat in hand I offer my sincerest apologies, because there's just no way we'll ever see eye-to-eye. Without our ability to enforce rules, ensure fairness, and protect our reputation, we have complete chaos and no B&B - and frankly, I think most folks are here, because we've got one of the best communities on the internet. Like everything, we have our faults/flaws (and again, we're going to be making an announcement and some changes in the coming weeks site-wide to further improve) but take a step back, and understand our position and our motives.

6.) Vendors are here to sell. Well... they're not. Sure, they do, and they can/do promote their products, but vendors can't just join B&B. They have to apply, go through an approval process, pay a VERY nominal fee and add value to the community. Vendors being here, don't make B&B a great place to visit. They need us, we don't need them. We have them here to inform the community of new developments/products for sale, make announcements, and yes, promote themselves, but we cannot, do not and will not ever "sell out" or allow a vendor/manufacturer to do as they please or take advantage of the community. If they do, they'll be shown the door, just as we've done with vendors who have ripped off members, even if they were once a mod, like in the case of the Gentleman's Best. Yes.... most (not all - case in point the late Saint Sue) vendors are ultimately here to market to and attain profit from the community, but they are also here to add VALUE to the community, not just peddle product. We charge $120 a year for a basic vendor subscription. $10 a month (that's about 2 to 10 google ad clicks, depending on the key word). We're not allowing vendors here so we can make money, and they're getting TREMENDOUS marketing value out of their subscription, which in turn helps support this community. Add up the total number of page views Simpson has received on B&B JUST for vendor posts, it's a shocking number. Assume this brush is $200. I know first hand what the cost of making shaving brushes is (keep in mind, i've done 7+, talked to hair and brush manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers, etc). For this brush, you're probably looking at less than $5 for the handle materials, less than $20 in labor, and less than $25 in the knot - and these are all INCREDIBLY HIGH figures, realistically it's 1/2 this number, because I can purchase these parts (assembled by a manufacturer in the EU) for less, and of identical quality. My first hand experience would lead me to believe you're looking at MAX $50 involved in this brush, MAX. Factor in only 200 being made, they're looking at a minimum of $30,000 in profit for just this ONE project. I may not be a business mogul, but I know if I can get $30K in items sold through a channel that costs me a few hundred bucks, i'm not going to be a jerk to 'em, make snarky comments, and refuse to follow the rules.

Hopefully this puts things in perspective.

[bbarton713]

And just as I click send on this masterpiece Joel sends his post that explains what is going on and how/why things happened. :blush: :thumbup:

-------------------------------------------------------------


Mark, did you in fact become a vendor so that you could dominate the entire vendor forum by slowly trickling out information about the Gary Young and/or other LE brushes?

Quote:
"My decision to go as a vendor was based purely and simply to inform forum members of up and coming Limted Edition brushes that are going into production."
==============================================

Mark, did you in fact become a vendor so you could share the breadth of knowledge that comes with the history represented by the Simpson brand and by doing so enrich the experience of all that have an interest in the brushes and their history?

Quote:
"My decision to go as a vendor was based purely and simply to inform forum members of up and coming Limted Edition brushes that are going into production."

See what a difference is made when you have some context? Since there wasn't any context I made up two scenarios just to make my point.

I think that unless Joel and the mods are willing to give us the background and context that has led to Mark being treated this way their comments should be moderated so that there isn't this negative vibe to what is GREAT news.

That all being said, it is Joel's playground so we have to play by his rules.

[Shavely Manden]

Joel,

I definitely appreciate your hard work, and I'm sure there's been a misunderstanding somewhere along the line. However, it's quite difficult to appreciate that when we're totally in the dark about how the whole vendor thing works...I hadn't even noticed the different colors of badges until today. To the majority of folks on this site, it has looked for all the world like Mark and Gary have been trying to bring us a great brush, and they've been constantly harassed for either not having the exact brush that B&B'ers want at the pricepoint we want, being too popular and answering too many questions, or promoting their products when they've clearly paid for a vendor tag, and evidently one at the silver level.

Most of the best (and least painful) enforcement tends to be through community pressure...e.g., from what I've seen, mods usually don't have to get involved in B/S/T pricing issues, since the community brings most of the easy cases in line. Given that, why not make the vendor rules public? If you feel the rules are reasonable, then surely B&B'ers will understand and help enforce them. I'm sure the average B&B'er would be happy to provide a gentle reminder that, e.g., silver-level contributors aren't allowed to sell things directly through their threads. (Which doesn't seem to be the case, since SCS, a bronze-level contributor, has sold stuff through her thread, but just for sake of argument.)

I'd like to help out the mods in this one, but from where I sit, I can't see any problems...all I see is a vendor doing perfectly normal vendor-y things and being quite helpful, and people chewing him out for no apparent reason. And, to be quite frank, telling someone that they just don't know what's going on and aren't qualified to have an opinion feels to me to be exceedingly ungentlemanly.

[bbarton713]

Hopefully this puts things in perspective.

It does and I appreciate you taking the time to articulate a response that provided enough detail to make sense of your position. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[Hex]

Why the (implied) indignation at a vendor saying that he's here to sell stuff? Isn't that the purpose of the vendor forum? :blink:

I, for one, am happy when WCS posts that they have stuff in stock or on sale, or Bullgoose announces that he's got a 'special' Simpsons brush available. How's that different from Mark announcing that he has LE brushes coming up?

If you don't want commercialization of the Vendor forum, you'd have to ban all the vendors.

+1

I too have a hard time figuring out where that quote from Mark is offensive or outside of policy.

Can we shake hands and move on ?

[A. E. Simpson 1919]

Joel,

I was reading along nicely, nodding my head here and there, 'almost' agreeing with large parts of it ...

'THEN' ... you start banging on about the costs of manufacturing our brushes, our business & perceived profits therein, effectively trying to undermine my company and those who work so bloody hard to keep it at the forefront of the industry. You are conveying the message that people are being ripped off ...

What the hell is this about?

This is ludicrous, to the point of slander ... I'm amazed, shocked and frankly disgusted with that final paragraph.

This isn't the playground underdog talking here, this is a Managing Director of a global brand and I ain't looking for anyone's side, trust me.

Do NOT undermine the name of my business. You are BANG out of order.

[MajorBurnz]

Joel -

Thank you for the explanation about why the mods were targeting Mark's threads.

I knew there had to be a reason for the universal aggressiveness displayed by the mods in this thread, and now I know that I was right.

Of course, I don't really know the details of your communication with Mark, so I cannot comment on that.

I can, however, apologize for Mr. Scruffy for my comment about his post. I am sorry for my choice of adjectives there. I ask for his forgiveness, and I hope he won't hold it against me.

----

It seems to me that in cases like this, where a vendor (or any other member), has a fractious relationship with the mods, it would be best for the mods to refrain from commenting at all in the open forum ---- until a rule is obviously broken (in a particular thread) -- at which point the axe can fall (with a brief explanation of why).

I know that the original GYLE announcement thread got out of line; but that was, for the most part, caused by over-excited members (myself included). I did also feel that there was some gamesmanship going on (in retrospect), and I felt that it was handled properly at that point, by the mods - by closing the thread. To Mark's credit, he acknowledged in another thread that things had got out of hand, and that he agreed with the Mod's actions.

I did not feel that this thread warranted any similar action by the mods, until Mark reacted to several negative comments by mods in this thread.

I wasn't aware of any off-forum comments made by Mark or anyone else, though I see how that could have irritated the people against whom said comments were directed.

My apologies to the mods and to Mark too for derailing this thread. Leaves a bad taste in the mouth. :tongue_sm

EDIT: Any comments about how a business is run are probably out of line here. A business exists to make a profit. Simpsons brushes are regarded as being luxury items that people pay a premium for. I've used many high-end brushes, and my Chubby 3 2-band is in my top two. Do I think it, and any other brush over $60, is overpriced? - Yes! But since I can't get the same performance in a cheaper brush, I pay for it. Anyway, the market gets to decide if a business is overpricing their items.

[Hex]

Assume this brush is $200. I know first hand what the cost of making shaving brushes is (keep in mind, i've done 7+, talked to hair and brush manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers, etc). For this brush, you're probably looking at less than $5 for the handle materials, less than $20 in labor, and less than $25 in the knot - and these are all INCREDIBLY HIGH figures, realistically it's 1/2 this number, because I can purchase these parts (assembled by a manufacturer in the EU) for less, and of identical quality. My first hand experience would lead me to believe you're looking at MAX $50 involved in this brush, MAX. Factor in only 200 being made, they're looking at a minimum of $30,000 in profit for just this ONE project. I may not be a business mogul, but I know if I can get $30K in items sold through a channel that costs me a few hundred bucks, i'm not going to be a jerk to 'em, make snarky comments, and refuse to follow the rules.

Hopefully this puts things in perspective.

Joel, yeah this is your house, but I think bringing this profit analysis stuff into this discussion is way out of line. Sheesh.

Just my .02 cents

[Shavely Manden]

I can, however, apologize for Mr. Scruffy for my comment about his post. I am sorry for my choice of adjectives there. I ask for his forgiveness, and I hope he won't hold it against me.


Even though Mr. Scruffy's comment may or may not have been apropos, I feel making it public was inappropriate if the rules it's based on are not.

[bbarton713]

Have you two talked on the phone? I can't believe what I'm reading and I just wonder if any of this would be taking place if it was hammered out in a 10 minute phone call.

[Baloosh]

Is Simpson making ~$150 profit off each brush in this project?

If so, is that the norm (average) profit for a standard, run-of-the-mill, roadmap brush that's (hypothetically) $200?

If not, the term "LE" certainly seems to bring a hefty final cost to it, regardless of the vendor.

[Perished]

Why the (implied) indignation at a vendor saying that he's here to sell stuff? Isn't that the purpose of the vendor forum? :blink:

I, for one, am happy when WCS posts that they have stuff in stock or on sale, or Bullgoose announces that he's got a 'special' Simpsons brush available. How's that different from Mark announcing that he has LE brushes coming up?

If you don't want commercialization of the Vendor forum, you'd have to ban all the vendors.

Amen.

Opened a can of worms here.

[A. E. Simpson 1919]

In a word, NO.


Is Simpson making ~$150 profit off each brush in this project?

If so, is that the norm (average) profit for a standard, run-of-the-mill, roadmap brush that's (hypothetically) $200?

If not, the term "LE" certainly seems to bring a hefty final cost to it, regardless of the vendor.

[Perished]

So the crux of Joel's complaints is the profit margin Simpsons makes on its brushes?

That and Simpsons not paying the correct vendor fee?

Or in layman's terms, not getting a big enough slice of the pie?

Forgive me. That's how it reads to me, but then I'm a cynical old fella at the best of times. This thread has turned into something ridiculous, it stinks like a brand new boar straight outta the box.
I'll just follow Simpsons on Twitter for updates on the brush itself, and stay clear of these threads, way too much head work going on, and politics :thumbdown

[Shavely Manden]

All right, guys, let's settle down...I definitely feel for both the mods & Simpson's, but it's not going to do anybody any good if one of the most beloved brush vendors gets banned. (Or, worse, filtered. :scared:)

In the end, though I think Mark ought to be able to run his business as he likes, B&B's a business, too, and Joel can do with it whatever he likes. I'm sorry I've been rather unpleasant, and I think there's some unfair stuff going on on both sides, but couldn't we all settle down? We don't want Joel deciding that Simpson's needs to be banned, but we also don't want Simpson's deciding that LEs are too much trouble, and they shouldn't do us any more favors.

[psram]

Joel,

Thanks for taking time to post that perspective.



Most of the best (and least painful) enforcement tends to be through community pressure...e.g., from what I've seen, mods usually don't have to get involved in B/S/T pricing issues, since the community brings most of the easy cases in line. Given that, why not make the vendor rules public? If you feel the rules are reasonable, then surely B&B'ers will understand and help enforce them. I'm sure the average B&B'er would be happy to provide a gentle reminder that, e.g., silver-level contributors aren't allowed to sell things directly through their threads.
My guess is this (community enforcement) is not needed when rules/guidelines are followed, and surprisingly counter-productive when implemented on subjective matters. It works in B/S/T because things results (price listings) are clear. There has to be (is?) some subjective moderation in vendor rules. Like say when a vendor who follows rules to the T most of the times has an occasional slip, the mods will most likely let that instance slide. If you make this into a rule-based, reporting feature, the RP section will most likely overflow with well meaning, but 'false' reports which is a huge time sink for the mods.

Enough of me taking this thread off course. Let's get back to some brush PRON :biggrin1:

[Scott0079]

Time for a breather. Right now neither "side" and I hate to use that term, is looking good. Simpsons (Mark) keep cranking out awesome brushes! Joel (Mods) keep running a fantastic forum ! There are far fewer great products available than I wish there were and most definitely far fewer great forums. I hope this can once again become a healthy cohabitation. :thumbup:

[MajorBurnz]

Time for a breather. Right now neither "side" and I hate to use that term, is looking good. Simpsons (Mark) keep cranking out awesome brushes! Joel (Mods) keep running a fantastic forum ! There are far fewer great products available than I wish there were and most definitely far fewer great forums. I hope this can once again become a healthy cohabitation. :thumbup:

+1 I also want to stress:

- Thanks to Joel and the mods for putting together and running a great forum.

- Thanks to Mark and the Simpsons company for producing great brushes. I may complain about the cost, but never about the performance of those brushes. Hey! Don't blame me, I like holding onto my money! :lol::lol:

[JackRapture]

Time for a breather. Right now neither "side" and I hate to use that term, is looking good. Simpsons (Mark) keep cranking out awesome brushes! Joel (Mods) keep running a fantastic forum ! There are far fewer great products available than I wish there were and most definitely far fewer great forums. I hope this can once again become a healthy cohabitation. :thumbup:

+100
I really hope that things can be smoothed over. I love B&B and I love Simpsons brushes. I want to thank the mods for looking out for the B&B community so vigilantly. Let's try to move this into a more positive direction.


BTW, the GYLE brush looks absolutely beautiful in shape.

[altshaver]

Threads like these can be stressful, but I think they are good for the community in the end. It is good to let off the steam, and it is good to have a frank dialog between parties with different points of view in an argument. While I probably can come up with comments on various issues that have cropped up on this thread, I will withhold them for later I think. I do have two things to mention that might help for the future:

Vendors: Do not market anything on forums until what you're marketing is fully realized. Fully realized means in stock or in full production and with a stable price. Asking for feedback is OK in my book when looking for ideas for products. Also, I think that showing the in-production process of a product is best left on a Vendor or Manufacturer's Website or personal blog. Note: I do not believe that Mark was trying to do anything underhanded here.

B&B: I would recommend getting rid of bumps in the Vendor forum. This would make it more fair for all of the vendors while allowing members to ask questions in the various threads in the Vendor forum. I have found that this tactic has worked wonderfully in the BST.

[TYdeFan05]

I think that showing the in-production process of a product is best left on a Vendor or Manufacturer's Website or personal blog.

I enjoy seeing the process and prototypes. Rudy Vey, Bill Ellis, and others (including Mark) have really helped me better appreciate the time and effort each craftsman puts into each piece. I'm not comparing the products, people, or tactics of any of these posters and or vendors. I'm just making a point.

In fact, I'd like to see some (more) in-production insight into some of our soap makers' and pen/brush handle turners' lairs.


Obligatory YMMV.

[joel]

So the crux of Joel's complaints is the profit margin Simpsons makes on its brushes?

That and Simpsons not paying the correct vendor fee?

Or in layman's terms, not getting a big enough slice of the pie?

Forgive me. That's how it reads to me, but then I'm a cynical old fella at the best of times. This thread has turned into something ridiculous, it stinks like a brand new boar straight outta the box.
I'll just follow Simpsons on Twitter for updates on the brush itself, and stay clear of these threads, way too much head work going on, and politics :thumbdown

NO - I miscommunicated big time if that was the case. My point at mentioning profit margins was to illustrate the fact that they're benefitting greatly from this community, and as a result, should respect it's rules.

[franz]

I'm surprised nobody has come to bat for Joel.

It's thankless to moderate a forum like this. It would make my blood boil to read snide comments about me coming from a vendor who should be nothing but thankful for the captive audience this forum offers.

Mark is in the business of selling brushes, and he does a very good job at it. I think he is a good guy, too - but that is beside the point. The revered status of Simpson brushes shouldn't give him a free pass to flout the rules of the site and thumb his nose at the moderators and, by extension, the rest of us.

It doesn't help that some folks seem to be tying themselves into knots attempting to justify Mark's behavior because they've been teased into a gigantic erection over the GYLE brush.

Joel may have been harsh in his assessment (and shouldn't IMO have brought up the sidebar about profit margins), but it doesn't make it any less true.

Carry on.

[insomniac]

i'm surprised nobody has come to bat for joel.

It's thankless to moderate a forum like this. It would make my blood boil to read snide comments about me coming from a vendor who should be nothing but thankful for the captive audience this forum offers.

Mark is in the business of selling brushes, and he does a very good job at it. I think he is a good guy, too - but that is beside the point. The revered status of simpson brushes shouldn't give him a free pass to flout the rules of the site and thumb his nose at the moderators and, by extension, the rest of us.

It doesn't help that some folks seem to be tying themselves into knots attempting to justify mark's behavior because they've been teased into a gigantic erection over the gyle brush.

Joel may have been harsh in his assessment (and shouldn't imo have brought up the sidebar about profit margins), but it doesn't make it any less true.

Carry on.

+1

[nEver-Ready]

Just read on another forum that Gary Young is completely bowing out of participation in all internet shaving forums because of the Simpsons/Gary/GYLE controversy/issues, and his perceived treatment by, presumably, members/Mods of this forum. Not laying any blame, but man, what a sad outcome and loss of such a great resourse of knowledge and connection with history...:crying:

[insomniac]

Just read on another forum that Gary Young is completely bowing out of participation in all internet shaving forums because of the Simpsons/Gary/GYLE controversy/issues, and his perceived treatment by, presumably, members/Mods of this forum. Not laying any blame, but man, what a sad outcome and loss of such a great resourse of knowledge and connection with history...:crying:

How sophmoric. Had he actually stuck to being a resource instead of violating guidelines by hyping up a brush in the Brush forum, then blaming the mods in private for taking action, he'd have been welcome.

EDIT: and was welcome, I don't remember many people having problems with Gary until he started stealth-marketing his brush.

[joel]

Joel,

I was reading along nicely, nodding my head here and there, 'almost' agreeing with large parts of it ...

'THEN' ... you start banging on about the costs of manufacturing our brushes, our business & perceived profits therein, effectively trying to undermine my company and those who work so bloody hard to keep it at the forefront of the industry. You are conveying the message that people are being ripped off ...

What the hell is this about?

This is ludicrous, to the point of slander ... I'm amazed, shocked and frankly disgusted with that final paragraph.

This isn't the playground underdog talking here, this is a Managing Director of a global brand and I ain't looking for anyone's side, trust me.

Do NOT undermine the name of my business. You are BANG out of order.

OK - so it sounds like you're essentially admitting you were refusing to follow the rules... and you were being snarky. At least we got that out of the way, I appreciate you being a gentleman about that.

RE: the $. You've read far too much into this. If you'd like - and you want to go toe to toe, and you want to bring ALL of this out in the open, i'll post up contact info for HIGH QUALITY badger sources, brush tooling, etc. Yes - there are a TON of additional costs, and i'm not saying you're putting that figure of $ into your pocket (there are marketing expenses, tooling costs, costs of equipment maintenance, electricity and so on and do forth), but can you argue the RAW COST OF MATERIALS i've outlined?

Everyone must realize the provided numbers are merely empirical data. For retailers to carry simpsons brushes, they must see at least a 30-50% profit (i've been told the specific figures by MULTIPLE retailers, and at one point Nick and I looked at becoming a retailer and we have that info as well). From that, the manufacturers must purchase the materials, pay labor and fixed/overhead costs. So a $200 direct to market brush means at least a large chunk of that is going to the retailer. When they sell direct, they get all of that $.

Bottom line. I don't care how much money you make, you're a business - by all means you should make money, but I also know what the cost of marketing entails, I know what a killer deal you're getting here, and I know what the cost of raw materials is - and by promoting your product on B&B, you're able to go to market, and sell this product direct and present it to a large audience, for peanuts. With THAT in mind, copping an attitude with the mod team, and admitting to not following (or caring about) OUR rules is what chaps my ass. It's one thing if you're getting ripped off, or if we're making money off you, but you're not. You are being given a tremendous opportunity and instead of being appreciative, respectful, courteous and gentlemanly, you're taking advantage of the community, disrespecting moderators and other vendors, and care only about promoting this brush.

All you had to do was follow the rules. You didn't, you won't and now you're making snarky comments here, and other places. That just doesn't cut it for me.

While some have been vocal in this thread, and have had issues, i've been getting an overwhelming positive response via PM and email from members here.

Fellas - your voices are being heard. I'm holding my ground.

[Scott0079]

1st time request here, PLEASE lock this thread.

[Merv]

I am surprised no vendor has complained about the unfair advantage WCS has had by having the interview on the home page for such a long time. Great interview but unfair advantage being up so long. Yes, I do use WCS and they are good. But fair is fair.

[Shavely Manden]

How sophmoric. Had he actually stuck to being a resource instead of violating guidelines by hyping up a brush in the Brush forum, then blaming the mods in private for taking action, he'd have been welcome.

EDIT: and was welcome, I don't remember many people having problems with Gary until he started stealth-marketing his brush.

He was answering questions put to him about a project he was working on, and which (from what he's told me in PMs) he's got no financial interest in. I can see how that can be read as stealth-marketing, but he admittedly did remove his posts when he was informed. However, I can also see where the massive, public backlash against him would drive a fellow away...the negative tone has nearly driven me away, and I'm not even an interested party.

[Suzuki]

I did not want to jump into this fray as I think Joel has expressed the views of the moderator team and don't want us to be accused of "ganging up" on Mark or Simpson.

The only reason for this post is to respond to the following comment made by Mark in this thread:


Joel,

I'm here both as a businessman & an information source, wearing two caps if you like.

I'll leave others to judge who's being childish or out of line ...

Quite frankly, this sideshow is ridiculous and your not the first Moderator on here to point a disparaging finger our way either.

That 'person' was PM'd ... I didn't even receive a response. 'He' went into hiding after mouthing off ...

Not good, not good at all.

Let's try and move on?


I believe I am the one Mark said "went into hiding after mouthing off".

Here are the facts:

The offending post, which I made in a thread where a member was complaining about his Duke shedding:


My experience is that Simpson (both pre and post-Vulfix took ownership) has more than its share of QC issues. This is based on my participation here, as well as personal experience.

I will not get into the pre-Vulfix issues, as they aren't relevant to the current manufacturing operation.

I do know that, post-Vulfix there have been several QC issues ranging from serious (i.e. shedding) to cosmetic (uneven knots, inconsistent knot shapes/sizes within the same model).

I'm not suggesting that other high end brush makers don't have QC issues, just that, even accounting for volume, they don't seem to have them as often as Simpson.

That being said, my understanding is that Simpson does what it can to address any QC issues to the satisfaction of the customer.

As I stated in my post, this was based on my observations and personal experience. I also made it clear that Simpson worked well to address QC issues.

The PM I received from Mark:


Scooter,

I find that a rather disappointing post, particularly from a Mod.

I'd love to go public on some of the things I see & hear on a daily basis, but I can't.

We manufacture thousands of brushes a year which are extremely popular in these parts, ergo, more exposure.

I had to express that, I'm sorry if it's blunt.

Best regards & no hard feelings.

Mark

While superficially polite, the tone is of a headmaster scolding a child who has spoken out of turn.

Given that I felt my post was not offensive in any way or that moderators should be prohibited form post negative views (I'm assuming that Mark would have no objections had I made a post praising his company) on a particular product/vendor in a polite way, I saw no need to apologize, justify my post or otherwise respond to Mark's PM - to do so would have added to the ongoing issues. In short, I attempted to avoid furhter conflict by not engaging.

However, I did report the incident to the moderator team for review. In short, I voluntarily subjected my conduct and Mark's complaint to scrutiny by my peers. The collective decision was that no remedial action was required, so none was taken.

If this isn't an example of appropriate forum moderation, I don't know what is.

I apologize to all of you for having to post this, but having felt that I was being called out by Mark, I felt the need to respond and provide you with the facts of the interaction I believe was referred to by Mark in the post quoted above.

[nav]

Direct quote from Mark:

And yet, like a nice bloke would do, Mark has gone well beyond his subscription as a vendor...way beyond, providing information and great customer service in addition to bringing new products to all the forum members...which is at the end of the day why he is a paying vendor.

This is highly gentlemanly IMO and experience.

EDIT: Oh my god! I just read the cost analysis and my jaw has dropped. I can't believe a Mod, actually the "owner" of B&B would make such comments and analysis. Most members have a fair idea that the raw materials are not expensive and yet people buy them, people love them and many people buy lots more (think: SBAD!). Your own Mod team have a healthy case of SBAD and a lot of them are...yep, SIMPSON! You don't know what type of expenses Simpson has and for all we know, they may be supporting their staff very well, charities and other good causes, who knows but what I do know is it is no body's business how much they charge and how much it costs them!!!

That analysis was way out of line and should be removed.

[nathanb]

...

[kooshman7]

1st time request here, PLEASE lock this thread.

I agree with Scott here. It's going downhill quickly towards a meltdown. Lock it down and try to let things cool down.

[Intrigued]

I really wish the everyone concerned here could have a beer summit, talk this out, walk away friends, and declare bygones. :sad:



Please.......

[psram]

Maybe it is just me, but some of the behavior/comments here are just plain juvenile. I am off any Simpson related threads in this forum; seems to turn out to be a slug fest every time for no good reason.

There are other places to get the information I need.

[bbarton713]

i really wish the everyone concerned here could have a beer summit, talk this out, walk away friends, and declare bygones. :sad:



Please.......

+1

[MajorBurnz]

I really wish the everyone concerned here could have a beer summit, talk this out, walk away friends, and declare bygones. :sad:



Please.......

+1

Please let's just all start over again. I know feelings and egos have been hurt on both 'sides' here.

Let's all try and be the adults and gentlemen we claim to be, and let bygones be bygones.

Mistakes have been made on all sides (mine included) - but they're not necessarily terminal mistakes.

----------

One suggestion: Could we truncate this thread to just the first post and the one detailing the prices? Move the rest of the thread into the 'Site Feedback' section. Most of the posts detract from the original purpose of this thread.

[mattymatt]

I also wish they would post the vendor rules, so we will all know when some one breaks them. I find this thread interesting! It is like being at ringside on fight night! Popcorn, peanuts.........:thumbup1:

[Greyfox]

This entire fiasco is just stupid. No other way to say it! What a poor representation of B&B this has painted! A lot of people are to blame here and most disappointing to me it includes some mods and administrators. For the first time since I joined here I am not proud to be part of this forum. The overall tone toward Simpson seems to be negatively biased and has resulted in some real immature behavior and insulting comments in this thread as well as several others. If this is all we can offer to the membership then membership here is not worthwhile.

[ctkelly]

+1 to the mod team and B&B administrators. As a former moderator of a forum I can understand and appreciate what they go threw. I highly doubt this is as one sided as some of you think.

[ben74]

Greyfox has a point, this is getting embarrassing!

Surely the "gentlemanly" thing to do is to solve the problem rather than trying to attribute blame.

Make the Vendor section more transparent. Broadcast the rules so everyone has an ability to moderate (to some degree like in the B/S/T). Perhaps Simpsons could have a sub forum like others do? If conflicts of interest exist then address them. If B&B is being exploited in terms of advertising etc then set up a sponsorship deal, part proceeds or something with the vendor involved. At the end of the day we all buy shaving gear (and some here even sell it too!).

From a member point of view who simply enjoys the wealth of knowledge on offer and the coming together of like minded people I will admit I know little of what moderaters face in trying to ensure a fair forum. But from my lay point of view it seems awfully simple:

The Vendor section allows vendors to promote (and therefore sell) their products.

The forum can only benefit from its relationship with vendors, obviously if a vendor is found to be operating unlawfully then of course they should not be permitted to be a part of this community and members should be warned about them.

Any vendor of shaving supplies conversely is going to benefit from its association with this forum - that's insanely obvious!

Communities also expect transparency from their appointed law enforcers too. How about a thread on the role of a moderator and the issues they face in trying to maintain order in this forum (TV shows such as COPS appear popular and I'm sure people would tune in to "MODS").

I enjoy this forum and praise all who make it possible, but this Simpson saga is reducing that enjoyment.

I am loyal to B&B and rarely visit other forums (and I only contribute to this one). I am loyal to Simpsons and own many of their brushes and will continue to patronise them including any LE brushes that are offered).

This thread seems to be promoting a choice in loyalties. Now thats an un-gentlemanly thing from all parties involved!

[Don_Draper]

I am surprised no vendor has complained about the unfair advantage WCS has had by having the interview on the home page for such a long time. Great interview but unfair advantage being up so long. Yes, I do use WCS and they are good. But fair is fair.

I believe and correct me if I'm wrong, but West Coast Shaving is a "Supporting Vendor", which I'm sure comes with a much higher contribution and therefore more benefits. More importantly, John has been a contributing member of our community and through his honest and straight forward business practices has earned himself a spotless reputation. Now for the other side of the coin, Mark, in his limited time and financial contribution to this forum has been quite transparent about his motive for being a vendor, to peddle his wears. Unfortunately when your acquire a company, you don't acquire their values and integrity. A vendor who has spent less than 6 months here and has been the root of this much controversy, quite frankly is not a company I'll choose to do business with.

Thank you to the Mods for standing by the guidelines which make this a great community to be a part of.

[TonyN]

unfortunately when your acquire a company, you don't acquire their values and integrity. A vendor who has spent less than 6 months here and has been the root of this much controversy, quite frankly is not a company i'll choose to do business with.

Thank you to the mods for standing by the guidelines which make this a great community to be a part of.

+100!!!

Very well said.

[joel]

I believe and correct me if I'm wrong, but West Coast Shaving is a "Supporting Vendor", which I'm sure comes with a much higher contribution and therefore more benefits. More importantly, John has been a contributing member of our community and through his honest and straight forward business practices has earned himself a spotless reputation. Now for the other side of the coin, Mark, in his limited time and financial contribution to this forum has been quite transparent about his motive for being a vendor, to peddle his wears. Unfortunately when your acquire a company, you don't acquire their values and integrity. A vendor who has spent less than 6 months here and has been the root of this much controversy, quite frankly is not a company I'll choose to do business with.

Thank you to the Mods for standing by the guidelines which make this a great community to be a part of.

You hit the nail on the head. John and West Coast shaving pay (like everyone else) but a heck of a lot more - to get their own dedicated forum. In fact, John pays more than just $, he offers up his employee's time to box/ship/send B&B product, for NO CHARGE, and EVERY B&B brush ever done has been from his CAD skills/time. Is he a mod? Yes. Does he get preferential treatment? Most definitely not. It's a non-issue moving forward though, as since the Ray event, we will no longer allow current mods to start a shaving related business (otherwise they have to step down) nor will we add an existing vendor to the mod team - so John is the last, Grandfathered B&B mod who can/will ever be a vendor.

The vendor interview was on the front page for a long time, well - out of laziness, not favoritism. Generating content takes time/effort, and we've been busy with some cool new forum changes, and other add-ons. BTW, Simpsons/Gary Young got one of those as well, if memory serves me correctly.

[Don_Draper]

...we've been busy with some cool new forum changes, and other add-ons.

Excited to see the changes! The progressive nature of this site is what it makes it not only THE best shaving forum but it is quickly becoming one of the best sites for all thing gentlemanly. If you enjoy a fine cigar from time to time, check out the brown leaf section of this forum. I have recently begun my entry to this realm and have got a ton of good advice and recommendations there....I know shameless plug, let's get back on topic. How bout them Simpson brushes, huh?

[azmark]

Not laying any blame, but man, what a sad outcome and loss of such a great resourse of knowledge and connection with history...:crying:

There is plenty of informational history on the Wiki about Simpson (http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/index.php?title=Simpson).

[Tha Baron]

Interesting posts I must say... Can't say I am surprised it has come to this.

To be honest, I have always gotten an 'odd' feeling from the GY/Simpsons accounts here on B&B - right from the very beginning. Not sure if it was the timing at first, then how active GY became overnight and started commenting a lot about "meeting with Mark" and relentlessly defending all things 'Simpson' and mentioning how "they are getting things right with QC". I know we are all Simpsons fans, but it just was so overwhelming.

I remember there was the SimpsonShavingBrushes account that got closed after it was seen on another forum that the account owner was frustrated with the interaction he received on B&B. I can admit a lot of the brush guys here can be highly critical... I guess I'd be frustrated too.

Then Gary joined up and was incredibly surprised that Simpson brushes were so highly regarded in the U.S. I thought some of his posts were great, but I got the sense that he went above and beyond and commented in a way that made me think he could have had other interests than just passing on his love for the name/brand. He always seemed to comment on any negative Simpson post.

Sure enough... Simpsons account back up now we have the GYLE, Simpson Ivory LEs, Bespoke what have yous with extra shipping, engraving and bespoke charges on top of the premium for getting a Super grade in a best handle. I actually posted the prices on the forum that I was quoted for a Super Eagle and was quickly asked to remove my post. I thought that was odd, but decided to comply as I didn't want to hurt any 'bespoke' sales. Now I tend to think it was a way to keep other Simpsons retailers from getting upset.

I tend to think that with the increased demand of Simpson brushes, I can only imagine that selling LEs and direct from Simpson would certainly have more profit. Not saying this is the sole reason for Simpsons being on B&B, but I can't help but think creating a presence here was to steer more sales directly to SSB.com as well as the bespoke series and other LEs.

If I were a vendor/member that helped perpetuate the fanfare around the brand today - this all would make me upset.

Might be out of line with all this, but its my plain and simple opinion of how this whole Simpsons/GY deal has been from the start. I hate to be a cynic, but all signs just point in a certain direction for me. Sorry if that hurts some of you - not my intention at all.

[jgkeegan]

Unfortunately when your acquire a company, you don't acquire their values and integrity. A vendor who has spent less than 6 months here and has been the root of this much controversy, quite frankly is not a company I'll choose to do business with.



If I were going to slime someone's values and integrity, I'd have some pretty hard core examples of what I was talking about. If someone did that I I didn't see those examples, I'd not think much of that person, nor or their values and integrity.

If I were inclined to believe that the length of time someone has been here was particularly relevant, I'd fing it hard to attribute much value to the opinion of someone who has been here "less than 6 months." But I don't believe time here is particularly significant and I try to evaluate what people say based on content rather than length of time in B&B.

Just my 2-cents.

--james

[Tha Baron]

If I were inclined to believe that the length of time someone has been here was particularly relevant, I'd fing it hard to attribute much value to the opinion of someone who has been here "less than 6 months." But I don't believe time here is particularly significant and I try to evaluate what people say based on content rather than length of time in B&B.

Just my 2-cents.

--james

I think Don was trying to explain that having so much controversy in such a short amount of time was the outlier... not that the vendor only had 6 months of membership made their status meaningless. "Based on the content" of what he has seen in only 6 months is the troubling part for him.

[Scott0079]

So is there active ongoing discussion/resolution between the actual parties involved in this, or are we leaving this thread open just to continue to speculate, theorize, and get all worked up over other mens affairs? NONE of us onlookers have all the information, and honestly in my opinion shouldn't have as much of it as we have gotten. This whole thing should have been handled privately IMO. I can throw wild accusations at both parties and it won't sway either one an iota, they have to work this out like adults or part ways period.

[Shavely Manden]

Now for the other side of the coin, Mark, in his limited time and financial contribution to this forum has been quite transparent about his motive for being a vendor, to peddle his wears.

Do you think WCS spends so much time & energy on B&B without getting money out of it? I'm not sure how much John's time is worth per hour, but working as a mod on B&B would be a huge time-sink for a small businessman. However, out of that relationship he's getting the huge benefit of basically being B&B's go-to vendor...much more mention in the forums and a more positive bias basically lead a lot of us to check his site before others, allowing him to set higher prices, offer fewer discounts & free-shipping offers, and sell more wares. I do imagine that John does love this community, and I'm positive he enjoys the work he does here, but the ultimate goal of WCS's involvement in the community is to peddle his wares.

Yes, WCS pays more to B&B than Simpson's does, and for that they get more screen time (and, consequently, more profit) from us. Please don't hold that up as a moral high ground. It's all to sell shaving goods. It's not right or wrong, that's just the nature of business. Please don't keep insulting Mark; if we do, we're just insuring that future vendors think we're not worth their time & financial contribution.

[jgkeegan]

I think Don was trying to explain that having so much controversy in such a short amount of time was the outlier... not that the vendor only had 6 months of membership made their status meaningless. "Based on the content" of what he has seen in only 6 months is the troubling part for him.


His harsh and unsupported slime of integrity and values is what caught my attention. It was uncalled for and inaccurate, unless he has information that was not posted here.

This whole issue should have been settled privately long ago.

--james

[jgkeegan]

so is there active ongoing discussion/resolution between the actual parties involved in this, or are we leaving this thread open just going to continue to speculate, theorize, and get all worked up over other mens affairs? None of us onlookers have all the information, and honestly in my opinion shouldn't have as much of it as we have gotten. This whole thing should have been handled privately imo. I can throw wild accusations at both parties and it won't sway either one an iota, they have to work this out like adults or part ways period.

+1

[Don_Draper]

If I were going to slime someone's values and integrity, I'd have some pretty hard core examples of what I was talking about. If someone did that I I didn't see those examples, I'd not think much of that person, nor or their values and integrity.

Have you read this post? Do your research and draw your own conclusions, but this is mine. I've been in business for myself for a long time, and the only way I have been able to do so is because the way I treat, respect and value the people who drive my income. The actions shown by Simpsons in this thread would definitely call integrity and values into question.


If I were inclined to believe that the length of time someone has been here was particularly relevant, I'd fing it hard to attribute much value to the opinion of someone who has been here "less than 6 months." But I don't believe time here is particularly significant and I try to evaluate what people say based on content rather than length of time in B&B.

Just my 2-cents.

--james

It not about the time spent, it's the timing. In 6 short months, to have caused this much disruption and quite frankly, brand degradation?

[Saxmoore]

Like 'Tha Baron', I have had an odd feeling about some of the threads and the amount of hype that has been in them. I think people don't see every thread, or maybe see them after they've been moderated a bit, so they're not seeing the problems.

From the factory visit thread with a million pics that was moderated down (with a response of "the man is asking me to tone things down" with an eye rolling, winking and nudge-nudging kind of attitude), to the LE interest gauging to the direct from Simpsons threads. (BTW, it DOES affect the other vendors because I might have been about to purchase an expensive brush from them, but now I'm waiting to see the NEW brush and someone else lost my business because of it).

Anyone who has spent time in management knows that a TON of stuff happens behind the scenes before the general population gets info. That's why I'm inclined to understand the mods comments on this matter.

However, I've really enjoyed hearing about history of the company from Gary Young, and love it when a company has an online presence and interacts with their customers.

That being said, I'd like everyone to take a step back and give a little grace to "the other guy" and shake hands. Everyone needs to take stock of where they might've gone wrong, and understand why we are where we are. Then let's move forward with better understanding and closer relationships.

[Don_Draper]

I think Don was trying to explain that having so much controversy in such a short amount of time was the outlier... not that the vendor only had 6 months of membership made their status meaningless. "Based on the content" of what he has seen in only 6 months is the troubling part for him.

This.

[jgkeegan]

The actions shown by Simpsons in this thread would definable call integrity and values into question.
It not about the time spent, it's the timing. In 6 short months, to have caused this much disruption and quite frankly, brand degradation?

Repeating your unsupported slime doesn't add to its credibility.

*You* raised the time issue; no one else did that. *You* did that.

Then you slimed an entire brand line.

Your remarks were uncalled for, unjustified and just plain wrong.


--james

[Shavely Manden]

It not about the time spent, it's the timing. In 6 short months, to have caused this much disruption and quite frankly, brand degradation?

I've followed every one of the threads in question from the beginning, and I'd say we've caused the brand degradation, not Simpson's. They've been quite helpful (at times, too helpful, overstepping forum rules, but they've been good about it), and for it they've been thanked with a constant stream of speculation about whether they're just here to make a profit/sell shaving goods. Well, yes. They're a business. Businesses make profit...that's just what they do. If we can get a good LE out of their profit-making venture, so much the better. Otherwise, don't buy it.

You complain that Simpson's doesn't want to be part of the community. When they were trying to be part of the community, they were accused of "stealth-marketing" their brushes. When they tried non-stealth marketing, they were accused of just being here to make a profit. It's just a no-win.

Now, I've got no financial interest in this. I just don't want to see future vendors look at B&B and think "I'm going to be attacked because I'm not WCS". But, well, I'm thinking vendors are going to be attacked here because they're not WCS.


Like 'Tha Baron', I have had an odd feeling about some of the threads and the amount of hype that has been in them. I think people don't see every thread, or maybe see them after they've been moderated a bit, so they're not seeing the problems.

From the factory visit thread with a million pics that was moderated down (with a response of "the man is asking me to tone things down" with an eye rolling, winking and nudge-nudging kind of attitude), to the LE interest gauging to the direct from Simpsons threads. (BTW, it DOES affect the other vendors because I might have been about to purchase an expensive brush from them, but now I'm waiting to see the NEW brush and someone else lost my business because of it).


I was quite involved in both those threads. Gary might have been overzealous with his factory-visit thread, but he did remove all his pics. And it didn't seem to be with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge attitude...he seemed genuinely upset that he couldn't share those with us. I'm not really sure where you're finding that tone...could you point me to the posts you're thinking of?

And, frankly, we have no business telling Simpson's what vendor to sell its brushes through. If they want to sell an LE brush directly, fine. If you think that negatively affects vendors, organize a boycott. If it's B&B's policy that vendors can't negatively affect each other like that...well, that actually runs afoul of anti-trust regulation, so I trust Joel hasn't instituted any policies like that.

[brianw]

Okay Guys...lets have a time out... lets close this for a little while and cool off