Celluloid Rot

[BillEllis]

Some of you may have heard of celluloid rot, but never quite understood it... probably never saw what it looked like either. There might even be a few of you who knew of it, never saw what it looks like, and might not really understand it until it bites you.

To put it simply, celluloid rot is when the celluloid scales on your razor go south and the gasses emited from the breakdown of the composition causes the steel to rust quickly. It will even chew through light coats of oil to do its business. It's ugly and it can ruin a razor collection because it's basically contagious. That means that a razor with celluloid rot will stimulate the same process in the celluloid scales of your other razors that may be stored in the same box or container or whatever.

I have noticed a couple of things. Black scales don't seem to ever get celluloid rot, and the ones that get it the most are the semi-transparent amber and orange colors. If any of you have had different experiences, please share them. I have found almost a perfect illustration of celluloid rot, as sad as it is, because I could have fixed this razor up really nice and added it to my site. Because of the "disease", it will be quarantined and be relegated to a life of experiments. Vile experiments.

To see what the razor looked like on eBay, where I got it, go here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190112053018&rd=1&rd=1). There isn't exactly a whole lot of info there, and the pictures sure don't show the detail I would have liked to see. I must admit that I might have missed the pattern of damage anyway, mainly because celluloid rot isn't running rampant through the razor population.

This first pic shows the razor closed. Notice that there isn't a whole lot of rust above the edge of the scales. This is one of the things to look for when trying to discover if the scales have rot, or not.

http://home.comcast.net/~cherylellis01/forums/IMG_5224_1rot.jpg


In this second pic you can see the areas of the blade that are affected by the gasses being emitted. Looking at the "stains", it's hard to tell that those are relatively rough areas well on their way to forming their own colony of pitting.

http://home.comcast.net/~cherylellis01/forums/IMG_5228_1rot.jpg


This third pic shows a little closer look at the damage. Can any of you spot anything different or similar about the pattern?

http://home.comcast.net/~cherylellis01/forums/IMG_5225_1rot.jpg


Picture 4 shows the detail on the other side of the blade. Look at the pattern closely and see if you spot what is going on.

http://home.comcast.net/~cherylellis01/forums/IMG_5220_1rot2.jpg



OK, I will remove the mystery. Look at the areas I have circled in this last picture. Can you see the correlation between the colors and the rusting patterns? The yellow areas do not have the disease, wheras the orange shades have it bad.

Remember, the most prominent characteristic of celluloid rot is that the rust will be within the confines of the scales as opposed to the area exposed to air. The areas exposed to air usually would rust first.

http://home.comcast.net/~cherylellis01/forums/IMG_5220_1rot.jpg

There will be a pop quiz on this subject at the end of the year, so remember it....

[mparker762]

Celluloid (aka Rayon) rot is also what killed all those old movies from the 20's and 30's. They just rotted away inside their canisters in the movie studio vaults; once one of them started then it spread throughout the vault. Some of the ones at the bottom, corners, and near the door survived, but that's about it.

[farace]

Celluloid and Rayon are not the same; celluloid starts out as nitrocellulose and camphor, rayon as cellulose and caustic soda.

The poor temperment of celluloid is well known to guitar pick collectors (geez I have some weird hobbies) and is well documented in the book Picks! It's a gorgeous plastic but is unpredictable as to if or when it might start misbehaving. It's also extremely flammable (think of the fire scene in Cinema Paradiso; and a celluloid guitar pick will disappear in seconds if lit) and because of the danger, there aren't very many facilities manufacturing it anymore. The only items it's commonly used for these days are guitar picks and Ping-Pong balls (and to a limited extent, some fountain pens).

[mparker762]

The name Rayon has been used on a variety of plastics over the years (currently cellulose xanthanate), but AFAIK the original Rayon was cellulose nitrate aka celluloid.

[farace]

Was Rayon ever made with camphor? (I'm not being a smartass, I really don't know,) AFAIK, camphor is one of the distinguishing characteristics of celluloid. If you scratch or abrade a celluloid object, you should be able to detect the scent of camphor.

[BillEllis]

Regardless of the specific technical chemical properties of celluloid, hopefully I have provided enough illustration for some of you to recognize it when you see it in the future.

I am going to spiff this razor up a little and then store it with a couple junkers I have to see if the contageous theories are an immediate cause for concern for your other razors. I'll report back.

:em2300: Then I may try some neutralizing techniques I have in mind to see if it can be put in remission. Don't know exactly what I'm gonna do for sure. Heck, I may just pee on it to see what happens. I think I may have to lower my cholesterol a bit before I try that one, though.

[farace]

Would you think that the rot is caused not by the celluloid itself, but by the coloring agent?

[BillEllis]

Would you think that the rot is caused not by the celluloid itself, but by the coloring agent?
Could be, but don't know if it matters much, unless someone were to start a business making more celluloid razor scales. Then, addressing the specific cause may make a difference during the manufacturing process to prevent it from happening again. Otherwise, I think it's a bit late to change the color... :biggrin:

I'm hoping to hear from those who have had razors with the leper curse to see if maybe there were other colors besides amber and orange that have been affected. The ones with photographs on the scales also seem to be a problem from time to time.

[BOGARTUS]

Hows this one
http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7318

[FloppyShoes]

Interesting post, Bill. Jokes aside, what kind of sealing/neutralizing products or procedures might be able to help with this? If it is in fact contagious maybe there's something out there that can remove/neutralize the catalyst being released. Any organic chemists present?

[BillEllis]

Well...

It looks like it could be the rot. When the blade is closed, is most of the blade within the scales? Does the edge of the spine come close to the edge of the scales? If so, it probably is celluloid rot.

To be sure, repair the blade by removing the rust and then store it again for a couple of weeks without putting oil on it. If the rust has returned, it's celluloid rot.

Do these areas in the photo line up when the blade is closed? Until you find out, I'd quarantine that puppy.

http://home.comcast.net/~cherylellis01/forums/Bo.copy.jpg


FloppyShoes...

I think the answers to your questions would be most helpful to those who do some serious collecting. I'm certainly not a chemical analyist, but I don't think that sealing the scales will help unless it is oxygen that fuels the degrading process. If you have ever run across a set of scales that practically crumble in your hands, my guess is that it is rot and I don't think having sealed them would have helped. I'm only guessing, but if anything can be done at all, I think it would have to involve neutralizing the gasses and that may not be possible.

[BOGARTUS]

Bill

the answers to all questions is, yes. No matter how clean I get the blade, the rust comes back. Only in those spots. I sent the razor to its own room.

Joe

[Steerpike]

I may be stating the obvious, but why not strip the scales off, and make some new ones, from something harmless like wood. Burn the scales in an incinerator just to make sure.
Thanks for the information, Bill. You learn something new every day...

[BOGARTUS]

I am going too take mine off and coat themwith CA, reattach and see..

[BillEllis]

I am going too take mine off and coat themwith CA, reattach and see..
Once you have removed the pivot pin, the "true" collector value of the razor has been diminished, however slight it may be. Of course, a razor with rot doesn't have much value anyway. With that said, I kinda agree with Steerpike about just replacing the scales with something nice, and gas free.

Unless, that is, you just really like the scales or are interested in the experimentation to find a possible solution for diseased razors. Heck, finding a cure could nominate you for the Nobel. I'd vote for you... :biggrin:

Applying CA was one of the things I had in mind, as well. The other was removing the scales and submerging them in a baking soda solution for a day or two. Baking soda fixes everything.

Seeing your razor adds one more multi-colored set of scales to the celluloid-rot pile. I have had a few with evenly colored translucent scales, but most have been the several-color variety.

Have any of you heard of those opaque yellow/green mottled scales with the gas problem? They are the ones referred to as the-end-of-the-day scales. From what I know, the name came from when colors left over at the end of the working day in a plant were mixed together and used up so as not to waste any material. Although these scales were purposely mixed yellow/green, they were just referred to as "end-of-the-day".

Oh boy! With the garble of that last paragraph, I can envision some of you looking at your computer screen and emulating the Geiko caveman when he says, "WHAT!".

[BOGARTUS]

As always informative, Bill.

The deteriorated part of the scales seem to soften a bit with the appliication of the CA but does dry hard. I will coat them about 5 times.

I have a similar razor with a bad blade but nice bone scales. I am going to test the bad scales with the bad blade. After bringing the nice, hand forged Adoration back, for the third time, I am not going to take the chance. By the way bill. I used those neat 6" bristle wheels you taught me about, 60,200,400 grit.

I think I will tape the stuff together and zip lock bag it. If all goes well I will finish the scales.

You are right WHAT

Joe

[Steerpike]

It would be good to find a cure- those multi coloured scales are fun!

[BOGARTUS]

so far no rust

[BOGARTUS]

CA does not cure the rot problem. 5 coats anad sstill rust!!!

[ouch]

Sorry. Thought this thread was about this summer's lineup of Hollywood blockbusters.

[mparker762]

CA does not cure the rot problem. 5 coats anad sstill rust!!!

Have you tried plain old polyurethane?

[JBHoren]

Have any of you heard of those opaque yellow/green mottled scales with the gas problem? They are the ones referred to as the-end-of-the-day scales. From what I know, the name came from when colors left over at the end of the working day in a plant were mixed together and used up so as not to waste any material. Although these scales were purposely mixed yellow/green, they were just referred to as "end-of-the-day".

Like these? Fortunately, nary a sign of the dreaded "celluloid rot"!

[Steerpike]

Wow! A camoflaged razor! Is that for when you are a sniper, getting a shave while still wearing a Ghillie suit under a scrimnet cover?

[The Invisible Edge]

Hell, beans give me gas too - wups, wrong forum..............:eek:

[Incroyable]

This is a problem that is somewhat common in older fountain pens as well. Some people suggest that the darkening of the celluloid in say, Sheaffer pens is due to the gas emissions of a rubber filling sac:

http://www.stylophilesonline.com/images/07-06/07vint2.jpg

[SavantStrike]

I think I found a way to trigger cell rot.

I have found that soaking in barbicide is a sure fire way to make celluloid scales smell strange for a while. The stink dies down after a while, but depending on the color of the scales, it can be quite acrid at first. I also found that a coat of ballistol can help stop the stink for a few days, but it needs to be re applied frequently. Eventually the scales stop stinking ballistol or not, but it has me wondering...

If any of you guys have a blade with cell rot, can you try giving the scales a shot of ballistol and seeing if it slows the rusting?

[LessLemming]

I just saw this thread, and maybe I have an explanaition for the rusting effect.

Celluloid is a remake of natural polymers. Any type of plastic/polymer will eventually "crack down" in time. That means its molecular structure will start to desintigrate. Polymer bonds will get broken and the material will lose its stability. If these Polymers will start to break down often times hydrogen chloride will be formed. HCl is a very stable compound that "likes to be formed" and it is a very strong acid and what most people don´t know at room temperature it is not a liquid. It is a gas.
So your celluloid will with time emitt sour gases that will make your razor rust.
Eventually even the stainless ones.

The formation of HCl is to blame that fire in a house does so much damage.
Not everything inside will get burnt, but the gasous HCl will settle down in every electrical device, and will stay in the air and eventually will settle down in your lungs.

Maybe you could verify this by putting a wet tape of chemical indicator between the scales. The gases will get trapped in the water and the indicator will tell wether it is a sour or an alkaline gas.
Because celluloid being made of Nitrocellulose and Camphor I can not make out a source of chloride. Mybe the Nitro-groups will break down into NH3 wich would be a alkaline gas...

However there is no solution to this. There is no way of stopping these Polymers from crumbling down.
And alkaline and sour gases are extremely hard to keep away from your razor.
I think changing the scales is the only solution to that.

Ah and btw. I could not make out a reason why this should be contagious,
other than the formation of HCl could induce the formation of radicals in other scales. But I am not sure of course.

[PhatMan]

LessLemming,

The corroding element generated when celluloid goes bad is nitric acid.

best regards

Russ

[LessLemming]

LessLemming,

The corroding element generated when celluloid goes bad is nitric acid.

best regards

Russ

That makes sence! Thank you =)

[humber burns]

It seems to me that in order for rust to form it requires oxygen. So if you were only a collector and just had the razors to look at, wouldn't a vacuum seal do the trick? (alternatively you could store them in one.) You guys might want to try that, I'm not 100% on the science but I figure it's worth a try. This wouldn't be a permanent fix but it would greatly increase the life of the razor.

[Tony1951]

It seems to me that in order for rust to form it requires oxygen. So if you were only a collector and just had the razors to look at, wouldn't a vacuum seal do the trick? (alternatively you could store them in one.) You guys might want to try that, I'm not 100% on the science but I figure it's worth a try. This wouldn't be a permanent fix but it would greatly increase the life of the razor.

I'm not a chemist, but I think Nitric acid (used in making celluloid) has its own oxygen (HNO3 - three oxygen atoms in every molecule). If this was caused by nitric acid being released, an airtight bag would probably make it worse.

[Puerco]

Found THIS ARTICLE (http://yarchive.net/electr/celluloid.html) on how to stop/slow it down, as I don't have any rotting celluloid scales I'm not able to test it but worth a shot.
Quoted from this article:



Yes, cellulosic plastics are very sensitive to many solvents. But the solvents DO NOT start the degradation reactions. The degradation begins the day the cellulosic plastic is made. There are residual acids present including sulfuric, nitric for cellulose nitrate, acetic for cellulose acetate, etc. These acids are supposed to be washed out of the plastic during its precipitation and neutralized. But a little always remains. Over time, this acid hydrolyses the cellulose "backbone" breaking the polymer chain. When this happens, the esterification acid is also released which further promotes the degradation. In a fairly short time, the plastic can turn into a gooey mess. Once the process gets started, there is little you can do. On the earliest sign of this, usually a slight acid smell (acrid, like vinegar with the cellulose acetate), take the plastic and wash it in warm water. Then soak it overnight in a solution of baking soda. Wash again and dry thoroughly. This will neutralize any surface acids and may prolong the life of the item. To minimize the future decomposition of cellulosics, keep them dry but with air flow around them. Museums have learned the hard way that celluloid and other old plastics, kept under glass still decompose. The moving air tends to remove acid vapors that are formed, and thus slows the reaction.