Soap Types? (Glycerin, Tallow, etc.)

[AfterHours]

Can you guys help me understand the different soap types out there and how, exactly, they're different?

I know there's glycerin-based, which is Mama Bear.

I know there's tallow-based...is that D.R. Harris?

Are there any other soap types?

Anyways, I don't even know the difference between the two, and for what kinds of skin they are best for - their lathering characteristics/properties, etc.

How do these factor into skin sensitivity, if at all?

Also, what are the advantages of buying glycerin separately and using a dropper to create your own lather in a bowl?

Drop some knowledge on meh! :thumbup1:

Thanks.

[JimmyD]

I'm far from an expert on the subject, I merely know what I like.

That said, I recommend you check out the Badger & Blade wiki on shaving soaps >>> B&B Shave Soaps wiki (http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/index.php/Shave_Soaps)

[cameraflier]

here is a good starting place...

http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/index.php/Shave_Soaps

[Bestarrkin]

Well D.R. Harris is not tallow based actually. It has some tallow but the formulation is not based on it. Besides the "based" term is a little confusing.:huh:

[jkh]

Here is how I classify of shaving soaps:

Milled soap with tallow (e.g., AOS, DR Harris, etc)
Milled soap without tallow (e.g., PDP, Provence Sante, etc)
Melt-and-pour soap (e.g., QED, Mama Bear, HBS, TGQ, etc)
Note: You can further break down melt-and-pour soaps into those that have clay and those that don't (clay: HBS, TGQ, etc and no clay: QED, Mama Bear, etc)

[mretzloff]

"Glycerin-based" makes absolutely no sense. It is neither a type of soap, nor is the name even remotely correct. You cannot base a soap recipe off of glycerin. The correct term is "melt-and-pour".

There are three types: cold process, hot process, and melt-and-pour. Cold process soaps are made with oils and lye and then allowed to cure for several weeks up to several months, though they are technically ready shortly after being made. Hot process soap are similar to cold process soaps, except they are cooked, and therefore ready right after being made. Melt-and-pour "soap" is made by purchasing a soap base, melting it, and adding additives (glycerin, scent, clay, etc.).

[jkh]

"Glycerin-based" makes absolutely no sense. It is neither a type of soap, nor is the name even remotely correct. You cannot base a soap recipe off of glycerin. The correct term is "melt-and-pour".

There are three types: cold process, hot process, and melt-and-pour. Cold process soaps are made with oils and lye and then allowed to cure for several weeks up to several months, though they are technically ready shortly after being made. Hot process soap are similar to cold process soaps, except they are cooked, and therefore ready right after being made. Melt-and-pour "soap" is made by purchasing a soap base, melting it, and adding additives (glycerin, scent, clay, etc.).

What he said :lol: I was sort of close.

[Mama Bear]

To make a short story long... you have to first understand what soap is.

Wikipedia states: Soap is a chemical compound resulting from the reaction of an alkali (commonly sodium or potassium hydroxide) with a fatty acid. When mixed with water during bathing or washing, they help people and clothes get clean by lowering the chance of dirt and oil to get to the skin or fabric. Soaps are made from animal fats or vegetable oils.

Even easier when you add a lye and fluid mixture to oils/fats... there is a chemical reaction which causes the lye, fluid and oil/fat to become soap.

You can use many different fluids, water is most common, many swear by goats milk and some folks even use flat beer, either way, you put the lye into the fluid to form your lye mixture.

Any oils/fats can be used.... origionally beef or pig fat was rendered and used to make soaps and candles, but as time went on vetable oils began being used.. Palmolive soaps are made with Palm and Olive oils, I believe this was the first vegan soap besides Castille, which is pure olive oil.

Other oils have been added to the list and it goes on forever, Coconut oils and Castor oils came into play, Neem oil is being used, but just about anything can be used.

Different oils will make different soaps with different cleansing, moisturizing and conditioning properties.. professional soapmakers are always experimenting with blends of fats and oils in their soaps.

These soaps can cool down on their own, or be processed faster by putting in an oven.. thus Cold Process or Hot Process Soaps.. Cold Process soaps require a curing period of 6-8 weeks while hot process soaps do not.

[Mama Bear]

continuing on to Glycerin Soaps. Some folks wanted to make clear soap and found out by adding alcohol or sugar to soap you could get a clear soap.. others have futher experimented with Sorbitol.. often when creating these clear soaps additional glycerin with be added.. hence the term glycerin soaps. These are very soft soaps that will actually melt at a low temperature and are referred to as Melt and Pour Soaps.. or M&P.

It is important to know that all products that you purchase at the store are not soaps.. soap has to be a combination of lye, water and oils/fats.. there are chemically reproduced soaps created with surfactants and they use the terms beauty bar, bath bar, luxury bar.. etc to refer to them. Soap can only be called soap if it is real soap, so it is easy to find out what is real and what is reproduced by just reading the label.

[Mama Bear]

ok, I just ran out of wind.. lol Questions?

[csmorris]

ok, I just ran out of wind.. lol Questions?

Fantastic explaniation, thank you! :thumbup1:

[Mama Bear]

last quick thought.. glycerin is actually a byproduct of soapmaking.. it is created as part of soap.. It also makes soap softer and more moisturizing. back in the 19th?? century I believe they discovered other uses for glycerin.. and glycerin became more valuable than soap itself. They devised a method to extract the glycerin by using salt and milling the soap. Milled soap has less glycerin.. and is much harder and lasts longer. Handmade soaps which I prefer still have the glycerin in them.. and glycerin soaps have more glycerin yet.

Interestingly enough, there became a market at some point for lotions made with oils and glycerin so soften skin after washing with the milled soaps.. I don't want to get into that one too much tho.. :001_rolle

[Doodi1]

This thread is very interesting reading. Thank you Mama Bear and Matthew for the education.:001_smile

[expre]

ok, I just ran out of wind.. lol Questions?

What book would you recommend reading to learn the basics of making shaving soap?

Is there a different book you would recommend for advanced topics of creating shaving soap?

Thank you in advance.

[AfterHours]

Okay, thanks for all the replies guys. Very informative :thumbup1:

[CaptainK]

"Glycerin-based" makes absolutely no sense.
THANK YOU! :thumbup1:

Ever since learning soap making, that term drives me nuts!! It's a misnomer and a pet peeve of mine. I wish we would just eliminate it from our vocabulary! :thumbdown

ok, I just ran out of wind.. lol Questions?
Thank you so much, Mama Bear!

Just one clarification, for my own sake: glycerin soap (not "glycerin based soap!") is simply a term for soap that has added glycerin, over and above the naturally occurring glycerin that's a byproduct of saponification, correct?

Forgive me, but I do have one question: after all I've learned about soap making, I'm under the impression that clear, transparent soap and melt-and-pour soap are not necessarily synonymous. As you stated, clear soaps can be made by adding alcohol or sugar. I understand that melt-and-pour soaps are simply cold- or hot-processed soaps with additives (like extra glycerin) that lower their melting point, so they can easily be melted afterward. In other words, while you can have soaps that are both clear and melt-and-pour, you can also have clear soaps that aren't melt-and-pour and melt-and-pour soaps that are not clear. Is that clear? :laugh:

Anyway, am I understanding this correctly?


What book would you recommend reading to learn the basics of making shaving soap?

Is there a different book you would recommend for advanced topics of creating shaving soap?
Personally, I'm finding that published shaving soap recipes aren't very good, and good shaving soap recipes are closely guarded and not published. (I find good melt-and-pour base recipes are closely guarded, too. I wonder why?) I, too, would love to hear from anyone that knows differently.

A good place to start is to learn to make regular bath soap, and go from there. A few good books:

The Essential Oils Book - Colleen Dodt
Perfumes, Splashes and Colognes - Nancy Booth
The Natural Soap Book - Susan Cavitch
The Soapmaker's Companion - Susan Cavitch
Making Cream Soap - Catherine Failor

Good sites:
Teach Soap (http://www.teachsoap.com/)
About.com Candle and Soap Making (http://candleandsoap.about.com/)

[CaptainK]

Can you guys help me understand the different soap types out there and how, exactly, they're different?
I know there's glycerin-based, which is Mama Bear.
I know there's tallow-based...is that D.R. Harris?

Actually, the "base" of a soap is the main type of fat/oil used, though most soaps today use a blend of several different ones. I find if there's tallow in a soap, whether or not it's the most prominent fat/oil on the ingredients list, people refer to it as a "tallow based soap." Soaps with no tallow or lard are referred to as vegetable (or veggie) based soaps. "Glycerin soaps" can be either, and have added glycerin (over and above the naturally occurring glycerin that's a by-product of saponification), and may or may not be melt-and-pour.

I'm no expert, so if anyone knows differently, please correct me if I'm missing something.

[DClassic]

True, Everything that was stated is true. MamaBear & Matthew are qualified soapmakers in business. I too am a soap maker (wanna-be, only a couple of years). Everything I've learned( not much) is right on course with what they implied. I mostly make for myself, but recently I have obtain a few friends I make for. I try and stay with organic & vegan(no animal fat) as much as I can. I purchase alot of my ingredients from organic growers in the Northwest. I have both CP & M&P. My additives include,white kaolin clay, french green clay, bentonite clay, vitamin E, collagen, allatoin, neem powder, grapeseed oils, sunflower oil, safflower oils, glycerin just alot of great stuff. You can get a better soap from a soapmaker then you can in a store. I'm working on Sea Buckthorn Oil & Camelina Oil additives. The Sea Buckthorn Oil is very expensive because of where it's grown (Altai Mountains in Russia Serbia) . I don't want to wait for 6 to 8 weeks with Cold Process to see how it turns out , so I might use a Shea Butter M&P base for now. Really all these organic ingredients are expensive, but it's well worth it in the long run. I have a nice shave cream, you have to use a little more than the other stuff, but it has some top-notch additives.

[DClassic]

I have some 8 oz tubs of my Shave Cream in Almond, Lime or Reserve Scents if anyone wants to try it, I give it to you, if you pay for shipping. And let me know how you like it.

[CaptainK]

I have some 8 oz tubs of my Shave Cream in Almond, Lime or Reserve Scents if anyone wants to try it, I give it to you, if you pay for shipping. And let me know how you like it.
Cool! :thumbup1: How would you describe your Reserve scent?

[Mama Bear]

THANK YOU! :thumbup1:

Ever since learning soap making, that term drives me nuts!! It's a misnomer and a pet peeve of mine. I wish we would just eliminate it from our vocabulary! :thumbdown

Thank you so much, Mama Bear!

Just one clarification, for my own sake: glycerin soap (not "glycerin based soap!") is simply a term for soap that has added glycerin, over and above the naturally occurring glycerin that's a byproduct of saponification, correct?

Forgive me, but I do have one question: after all I've learned about soap making, I'm under the impression that clear, transparent soap and melt-and-pour soap are not necessarily synonymous. As you stated, clear soaps can be made by adding alcohol or sugar. I understand that melt-and-pour soaps are simply cold- or hot-processed soaps with additives (like extra glycerin) that lower their melting point, so they can easily be melted afterward. In other words, while you can have soaps that are both clear and melt-and-pour, you can also have clear soaps that aren't melt-and-pour and melt-and-pour soaps that are not clear. Is that clear? :laugh:

Anyway, am I understanding this correctly?

Most of the melt and pour soaps out there are synthetic detergent based, so even the term melt and pour makes me twitch even tho it is what I love working with the most. Mine is natural.. and made the way you are describing tho.

This is one of those times when I really miss Saint Sue. Before she died she was experimenting with making hot process soap into melt and pour and we had discussed breifly what she was doing. The goal was to create melt and pour from lye soap in her kitchen. I am wondering if Wendy knows any more about how those experiments went, it was fascinating to me. God I miss her so much sometimes..

[DrColossus11]

I have some 8 oz tubs of my Shave Cream in Almond, Lime or Reserve Scents if anyone wants to try it, I give it to you, if you pay for shipping. And let me know how you like it.
I'd like to give some a try.

[DClassic]

My reserve scent is citrusy with a touch of black pepper. Great scent, has a top note, middle note and bottom note. Also in an aftershave moisturizing balm. I have those in 4 oz. Very manly

[DClassic]

Send me a PM, let know which scent you want! I'll be checking back off & on today.

[CaptainK]

The goal was to create melt and pour from lye soap in her kitchen.
Oh, I would love to know how to do that. I would think that any all-natural M&P must be made that way - unless I'm missing something. As far as I know, all that's needed is something to lower the melting point of ordinary CP or HP soap. Why is it so difficult to find tips, tricks, recipes and processes for making your own M&P base? Surely, someone must know how to do this. How about the experts and forums over at Bramble Berry?


God I miss her so much sometimes..Amen.

[eyebright]

Forgive me, but I do have one question: after all I've learned about soap making, I'm under the impression that clear, transparent soap and melt-and-pour soap are not necessarily synonymous. As you stated, clear soaps can be made by adding alcohol or sugar. I understand that melt-and-pour soaps are simply cold- or hot-processed soaps with additives (like extra glycerin) that lower their melting point, so they can easily be melted afterward. In other words, while you can have soaps that are both clear and melt-and-pour, you can also have clear soaps that aren't melt-and-pour and melt-and-pour soaps that are not clear. Is that clear? :laugh:

Anyway, am I understanding this correctly?



All true: "clear, transparent" soap is not synonymous with "melt & pour" soaps. As Mamma Bear and others have said, you can make clear soap from cold process or hot process soap by cooking it with alcohol and sugar. The whole point of melt & pour is that it's commercially prepared and therefore easy to use, and its fans say it affords unique design possibilities as well. It's available in all sorts of versions: clear, opaque, extra transparent, suspension, with shea butter, goats milk or aloe vera, those that claim to be organic, etc., which often makes it difficult for the novice to tell them apart from cold/hot process soap without reading labels. But melt and pour soaps are not just regular soap with extra glycerin added - the ingredient lists are a far cry from the oils and lye that make up a true soap. Here's one taken at random from the internet: "INCI Ingredients: Propylene Glycol, Sorbitol, Glycerin, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Myristate, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Triethanolamine, Water." There are also some newer melt and pour types that are more natural, without the surfactants, I believe.

You can add glycerin to a cold or hot process soap while you're making it, but that does not make it a melt and pour soap. And all artisan soap has retained glycerin in it, so the term "glycerin soap" referring to melt and pour is a pet peeve of mine, too!