Shotgun or Pistol for Bear Defense [Archive]

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kzoo1

03-11-2011, 06:11 AM

I tried searching, but was unable to find any topics like this.
(maybe I not search so good? :001_rolle )

Anyway, here in Michigan there are reports of bears moving further south than they have in the past, and at several of our favorite camping spots, there have been signs of bear activity. In fact the DNR confirmed it several times to my wife and me.
She has indicated that we need a gun for bear defense, I agree. I have been around guns my entire life, she has been instructed about gun safety and has shot a few times (more training is in order for her). So my question really boils down to what some of our more experienced members think on this issue.

I'm of the opinion that a shotgun and slugs/sabots would be the best defense around camp, and on hikes, but really have been thinking it might be something like a .357 revolver...

I want something with real stopping power, reliable, and easy to operate.

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, my choices are between a .357 as above or a 12 ga. "special purpose" pump like a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870.

Any advice/opinions are greatly appreciated.

hometownhero

03-11-2011, 06:24 AM

I would go with a rifle the main reason is because we cant carry hand guns here lol. Between those 2 I'd go with the .357 having shot one its got some power to it. If you do end up with a shotgun are you going to use slugs? If not you might as well toss your shoe at it unless its right up close.

mattface

03-11-2011, 06:24 AM

Actually a pack of fire crackers is better defense against bears. I'm no expert on guns, but I know that once a bear gets close enough for a pistol or a shotgun to be effective you've waited too long. If you shoot a bear, you better be damn sure you killed it especially at close range, because a scared bear will run away, but a pissed off bear will maul you until you cry like a little girl. Better to scare the bastard away before they get close enough for it to matter. At my Uncles cabin in Ontario when I was a kid we had a .22, and a Pack of firecrackers. Both were tried to scare away bears. The bears were not impressed by the sound the .22 made, but the firecrackers sent them running.

Troggie

03-11-2011, 06:29 AM

I have family that go to Alaska and hunt bear ( Kodiak primarily).. their side arm of choice is a .45 with hollow points as a backup with a high powered rifle as their primary choice of weapon.

You may want to check out http://www.chuckhawks.com/protection_field.htm as it has some good information.

hometownhero

03-11-2011, 06:59 AM

406shaver

03-11-2011, 07:04 AM

probesport

03-11-2011, 07:04 AM

Mossberg 500 w/defensive loads and a Raging Bull 454 Casull :w00t:

Cover all your bases....

americanarmsdealer

03-11-2011, 07:07 AM

Mossberg 500 w/defensive loads and a Raging Bull 454 Casull :w00t:

Cover all your bases....

+1. I think I'd load the shotgun with slugs,though!

406shaver

03-11-2011, 07:10 AM

A .45 would be an excellent choice for defence. In fact the .45 is my favourite hand gun lol :thumbup1:

Yes for humans, not bears. My opinion only as a firearms dealer.

406shaver

03-11-2011, 07:11 AM

+1. I think I'd load the shotgun with slugs,though!

Yes slugs only. Pistol for back up. No smaller in caliber than .44 Mag.

Troggie

03-11-2011, 07:20 AM

Handguns are for people. Shotgun with slugs is the way to go. BTW I live and play in bear country.

Even time when I can't bring a shotgun, I carry a S&W .44 Mag and I feel that's not enough, but better than nothing. Take it for what it's worth.

I would agree a handgun would be my last choice as protection from bear and a shotgun would be a better option.

The only other problem I see is that if it is a Michigan State Park it is against the law to discharge a firearm or even carry fireworks into the park. If it is a private camp ground you may need to contact the owner/operator to see what they allow. I am not sure how flexible the DNR may be this year with the firearm/fireworks regulations if there are a large number of sitings though.

Crag

03-11-2011, 07:40 AM

I have spent every summer since I was 12 in Denali, AK and while we do not get your backyard variety of bear, we do get grizzly Bear, and the weapon of choice for hikers in that area is a long barreled .357 or 44 mag. The reason is that with a pistol you can fire off a barrage of shots if a bear is attacking. And unless they allow semi-auto shotguns in your state, more rapid shots mean better survivability. A bear will not likley continue fighting if it is wounded.

Another thing that the back-country authorities recommended was a bear fogger. That is basically a pepper spray fogger for bears. My dad used one on a bear in northern California and it was impressive...Basically on a bow hunting trip we came upon a bear about 5 feet in front of us with no time to pull his sidearm, my dad sprayed it with his fogger... The bear basically ran away...they have REALLY sensitive noses....

The fire crackers are for when a bear is in the area, not when you are face to face, because you have to light them first so this is not a good choice in my opinion...

I'd like to mention that just because there are bears, does not mean that you automatically have to kill one when you encounter it. People encounter bears when out on hikes all the time...the casual encounter itself is not usually what triggers an attack...it's usually startling a bear with cubs, if they are on a kill or the person runs away that triggers the chase reflex.

Best bet is always make alot of noise when hiking so the bears will know you are there and will vacate the area...I carry a harmonica and play notes on it about every 20 minutes or whenever I encounter a switch-back on the trail. In rough country I play it all the time....Especially before I bed down for the night... This will not work for Polar Bears, since they are extremly inquisitive, but I don't suppose you have many of those in Michigan. :001_tt2:

In any case, I vote the sidearm, unless you can get a semi-auto shotgun, but seriously...who wants to go on a relaxing hike carying a 20 pound rifle? Something else to think about...

Leche

03-11-2011, 07:50 AM

I'm an avid shooter and backpacker/camper. I have also backpacked in bear country for a long time, never once with a problem. I was taught from a young age about good prep; cooking away from camp, suspending or submerging food, etc. Never had fancy containers or anything. However you can't go wrong with a 12 gauge with heavy slugs or a 30/30 repeating rifle.

auk1124

03-11-2011, 07:50 AM

If you go with a pistol, be sure to take a bench grinder and grind the front sight off.

mikey

03-11-2011, 08:05 AM

Why?

If you go with a pistol, be sure to take a bench grinder and grind the front sight off.

auk1124

03-11-2011, 08:09 AM

Why?

When the bear takes the pistol away from him and shoves it up his butt, it won't hurt as bad.

Roobaix

03-11-2011, 08:10 AM

If you go with a pistol, be sure to take a bench grinder and grind the front sight off.

Why?

+1. Unless you want to make the sights completely useless for no reason there is absolutely no need...

probesport

03-11-2011, 08:26 AM

If you go with a pistol, be sure to take a bench grinder and grind the front sight off.

Not all Pistols are .22's. There are some large caliber handguns that could remove the face from a charging bear without question.

auk1124

03-11-2011, 08:32 AM

Not all Pistols are .22's. There are some large caliber handguns that could remove the face from a charging bear without question.

It was a joke.

BrianL

03-11-2011, 08:44 AM

+1 on the 357. When I lived in Alaska thats what most carried when fishing. I have seen lots of bear, but never felt like I needed to pull a gun on one. As the saying goes I leave you alone you leave me alone. Do not leave food or trash around and you should be fine.

kopio

03-11-2011, 08:44 AM

When I was a kid we spent a lot of time hiking in bear country. My father always carried a Ruger 357 Blackhawk. It is the same gun I now carry.

I have carried in in bear country and cougar country (in the northwest). I like it for a few reasons:

1) It is fairly light for the punch it packs....it's not as light as my ultra-compact 9mm, but it is a very comfortable carry with a full-grain leather side holster. It's not the best for concealed carry, but for outdoors carry it works great.

2) It has a nice long barrel = easy to aim! My dad did carry a 6 inch-barrel version for some time, but he settled on the 4-1/2 inch barrel as his main go to gun. It is deadly accurate. I can still shoot this handgun more accurately than any other handgun I've shot or owned (which is quite a few.)

3) It's very reliable. Wheel guns don't fail to feed, they just plain work. In a forum dedicated to some of the finer and more simple things in life, this jives with me very well.

4) Simplicity. No safety, no chambering a round, just point and shoot. FWIW, my wife LOVES my 357. You pull it out, point it, and pull the trigger. It's always ready to shoot right now.

A 12 guage is a good idea as well, but those suckers are heavy, especially fully loaded.

There are other ideas good ideas as well. A while back I was looking into moving to Alaska....and the 454 was a gun I was really looking at. But then again...Alaska has BIG bears....not the little blacks that live in the Northwest and in Michigan. I would think that a 357 with good heavy +p+ hollowpoints would more than stop anything coming to eat you.

All that being said....the most important factor is to be constantly on guard. Keep your head about you, look and listen intently. Have your feelers on, or even better yet....take the dog with you (if you have one)! They are really an early warning guard against other animals. So...look, listen and pay attention if the dog starts acting squirrelly!

Just my two cents worth.

smitty

03-11-2011, 08:46 AM

i like the pistol = more likely to have it on your side when you need it:thumbup:

willyb

03-11-2011, 09:04 AM

i know its not one of the available selections you listed but I would take

a 2 bore rifle. Nothing like a brick traveling at 1500 feet per second. Ammo is kinda hard to find though. :lol:

deandroid

03-11-2011, 09:18 AM

I agree with Craig, having backpacked in Alaska and checking with locals. It of course depends upon which kind of bear(black or brown-Grizzly) you are dealing with. Most locals carry large bore handguns or rifles, shotguns are great against human threats but dont have enough velocity to penetrate into vital areas of a Brown Bear unless a head shot is made.(hard to do I imagine if being charged by a raging bear).

alexseraph

03-11-2011, 09:28 AM

As a CCP holder I know the laws on this all can get very confusing based on your state. Here's my advice for what it's worth.

A shotgun with a rifled barrel and slugs is great, but heavy for long hauls when you're not actually hunting. In addition, it tends to make other hikers with less aggressive stances on being bear chow nervous, and no one needs that.

A legally concealed gun in an adequate caliber, such as the Rugers mentioned above is an excellent choice. It is concealable (admittedly marginally so if you go for a long barreled model) and makes others less skittish. There's actually a more compact Ruger Alaskan designed for bear defense which fits the bill well.

Regardless of which firearm you choose practice is ESSENTIAL. If Yogi gets uppity you're going to be nervous, and that means you will fumble. Unless you practice with your weapon of choice regularly enough to make accurate shooting an instinctive action you're in for a world of hurt, possibly due to your own mishandling of the weapon in question.

kzoo1

03-11-2011, 09:41 AM

Thanks for all the replies! Keep 'em coming!

A few notes: We DO plan on practicing, and practicing often.

We do not camp in State parks, reminds me too much of a NASCAR race, we camp to get away from people, not be with them.

We haven't seen a bear, we hope to not see any bears (unless it's at Soldier field! :lol: )

Most of the time I suspect the gun would be stored with arms reach around camp, and rarely be on my back (sling) or hip (holster).

Right now I'm leaning toward the shotgun, starting with one or two light loads for noisemakers, followed by hard slugs for stopping power. Along with a bear fogger/spray type of device.

Thanks again for all the input.

alexseraph

03-11-2011, 10:00 AM

Right now I'm leaning toward the shotgun, starting with one or two light loads for noisemakers, followed by hard slugs for stopping power. Along with a bear fogger/spray type of device.

I'd recommend strongly against this plan If you shoot a live round there's no such thing as a warning shot.

If you need to have a noisemaker, instead of light loads I'd say use rock salt or better a starter pistol.

A light round is still a wounding tool and no one should wound an animal to chase it off. If you shoot, especially at a predator you need to finish it off. A wounded predator is a danger to you and others.

Wsamsky

03-11-2011, 10:25 AM

Thanks for all the replies! Keep 'em coming!

We do not camp in State parks, reminds me too much of a NASCAR race, we camp to get away from people, not be with them.

Right now I'm leaning toward the shotgun, starting with one or two light loads for noisemakers, followed by hard slugs for stopping power. Along with a bear fogger/spray type of device.

Thanks again for all the input.

I just wanted to chime in my two cents after spending some time hiking in the backcountry of Yellowstone (major bear country) and in northern Az (very few bears but still a possibility).

First I just wanna say follow your comfort level as far as if you want to carry a gun or not. I cannot chime in on this because I do not carry guns when I hike, but wanted to add a few other tips to prevent you from having to see a bear. First it is important to use your voice when you hike. As someone else mentioned he played his harmonica or some use bear bells but bears are more sensitive to the human voice and will hear you coming and avoid you before you can even see them. When I hiked in Yellowstone I made sure I was either talking to my hiking partner or singing because in most cases you will never see a bear that is close to you. This is more true when you hike away from other people, humanized bears may seek out food but nonhumanized bears will avoid hikers like the plague. It is highly unlikely to find a humanized bear in the backcountry as most are around established campsites and most are killed by the park service.

Second it is important to practice good bear safety in camp this includes bear bagging food at least 10 feet or more and away from other trees. It is worth it to google PCT method for bear bagging to see some alternative ways to hang a bear bag. Also never sleep with food or anything with scent including deodorant, toothpaste, etc. In the unlikely event that you do encounter a bear bear mace is a tested and trusted deterrent by park rangers in Yellowstone and recommended to every hiker. Also cook far away away from your tent and don't sleep in the clothes that you cooked in (put those in your bear bag!)

Rossmeister

03-11-2011, 11:42 AM

I want something with real stopping power, reliable, and easy to operate.

Both a shotgun and a .357 will have this. However, how many circumstances are you willing to account for?

Once trained, it's "easy" to operate anything, but bear in mind:

A shotgun might be unwieldy inside a tent, if a bear tears through on another side than the opening. (You'd sleep with the shotgun on your right/dominant hand side, facing the entrance.)

As for caliber.. 12-gauge is great for multi purpose, but if you're just gonna use it for one thing (shooting at a monstrous, attacking bear-beast), get a 10-gauge with slugs and stick with it. (Might be a bit much for your wife though, depending on her build). These are priorities you must consider. But then again, you might struggle with controlling a 10-gauge. Weighs more, too.

WHEN will you be facing a bear? Obvious rhetorical question as you might not ever know this, but my point is: be ready for EVERYTHING.

What if you slip in the mud and the bear strides out from a tree? Did you lose your shotgun? Did you lose your pistol? Will it discharge? What about canoing? Is there a bear at the only available landing? Even worse, is there a bear around if you keel over and have to swim to shore? Is your weapon at the bottom of the lake? Is it tied to your canoe? Is it holstered on your backpack? Or do you have it on your person still?

The reason I'm asking all these hypothetical questions is that you truly have to think this through. In the end, will you feel safer with your gun or not? It's not an obvious "yes," and I hope everyone who's ever fired a weapon realises this.

Is visibility poor? Is it raining? Did you surprise the bear unwillingly? Is it slippery on the ground? Are you comfortable with your firing stance in rough terrain (if you are a casual shooter, you are most definitely NOT)? Do you have the stamina to drag those extra kilos around? Will you sling it over your shoulder or put it in a pocket/holster out of reach because it was more convenient to carry?

In my opinion, you go through ALL this, get as ready as you can be, or don't bother at all.

Can you reload with gloves or mittens on? Will your weapon freeze in cold and wet environments? Where is your spare ammo? Did you bring any? Where is your backup? If you fire and a bear charges you, you better be damn ready to stab that thing with that giant knife you.. should've brought.

I mean, are you getting ready to fight bears, or aren't you? You and your wife seem pretty intent on making hiking safer for the both of you with a gun. Nothing wrong with that! Just.. once you pull that trigger, there's no going back for either of you. (Meaning you actually shooting at the bear to kill.) You KILL the bear, or you die. There's no room for oh-that-won't-happen-thinking. Do you have the guts to pull the trigger? Do you have the discipline (again, training)? Maybe if the bear is mauling your wife's head you can shoot at it no problem, but can you really if there's no such direct factor? Will you train yourself to react to any situation?

(Sorry to paint such a gruesome picture, but I'm only trying to help by bringing out some less-than-pleasant realities)

As for the specific weapon, I can make many suggestions, but I will recommend only one: .357 revolver.

Now, there are pros and cons to every solution. I would bring a revolver because it will simply not fail. At least not in the way other weapons do. Consider the mud example, or freezing rain. Or even if you just get sand in your holster or a grain of it in your magazine. Malfunctions do happen all the time. Real-life is not the shooting range.

(I shoot the supposed wonder-weapon HK416. It jams just as any other weapon if the conditions are of a certain factor. Magazine troubles, mostly.)

A revolver has some bad cons, though. It has a very short range. And I'm sure you realise this already, but since a pistol/revolver barrel is so short, shots fly wildly if you are not trained very well. Nervous? Expect to miss.

Here's where the compromise kicks in though. You have five rounds left if you miss. Oh sure, you might have seven shells left if you miss with your shotgun, but the reloading is gonna take you just a bit longer. And in that little bit, the bear is ten feet closer... If the bear is close on you, you can unload the revolver. You just can't with a shotgun, even if you buy a semi auto (unless you've mastered recoil absorption, which you just won't). Miss with a shotgun and you'd wish you'd have more time.

And again, if you come upon a bear, you're gonna get nervous! Heck if you're sane, you're nervous on the firing range too! What's it gonna be like when you stumble across that bear, or even worse, a cub, and you hear your wife gasp and you get that feeling in the pit of your stomach. Expect to fail, and train so you don't. How many hours "0week are you going to train with whatever weapon you end up getting? It's going to matter.

Okay, so after painting this scary picture, do I personally feel you should get a gun? Honestly, I'm not sure if I care! I'm not trying to be mean, but I don't know you. Obviously I don't want you to be eaten by bears, but every man that is going to use a gun has to consider for himself his motivations. I think I'm honest enough to say that I would not train as much as I would have to, to master an encounter with a bear where I would have to discharge a weapon. Then again, does anyone? Does my big post and the advice of gentlemen here really matter when you're facing a bear? Hopefully, you never have to find out.

Other than this, I would just like to say that the easiest ways you can prepare yourself against a bear is by being a clever woodsman, like others have said. Hang your food away from camp, in the air, don't litter food, all that stuff. Talk to people with experience in handling or confronting bears, it's the smartest thing you can do. Talk to wildlife rangers etc.

Watch this, 2:38
Norwegian adventurer and outdoorsman Lars Monsen has a bear come near his camp. Watch his reactions (he's stressed), and pay attention to what happens when he discharges.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0mKv5Hn-D4

I hope my post was some help to you.

EDIT
I just want to make it clear that I'm not advocating a "combat" way of looking at this. My reasoning is connected to the lethal situation though. You're being attacked, and you have to fight the bear off, you have to try and kill it. What happens BEFORE all this, is what I have NOT talked about. Warning shots etc. You obviously escalate as the situation demands.

Rossmeister

03-11-2011, 11:58 AM

(...) Right now I'm leaning toward the shotgun, starting with one or two light loads for noisemakers, followed by hard slugs for stopping power. (...)

I just read this. In my opinion, it's a mistake. Load with ONE type of ammunition. What if your first shot needs to go at the bear? What use is your light load then? You're just creating problems for yourself.

A slug will make noise too.

Riot police don't load up with two bean bags, then two slugs, then a buckshot, then Dragon's Breath . See what I'm getting at?

EDIT
I'm not shotgun expert, but if you're getting a semi auto (don't know if you're allowed to, or will), don't use shells with different loads. You want consistent recoil energy. Light loads might leave you with short recoil and thus a jam. Possibly deadly.

jwhite

03-11-2011, 12:38 PM

First off I'm no raging anti, I hunt, fish, and camp regularly. Have a decent camp gun if it makes you feel comfortable but the best defense against bears is good planning. Know how to stow both food and waste so that you don't attract them, when hiking in bear country use hiking stick with a couple of small bells tied to it, they will hear it and either retreat or stay a distance. It is bad to surprise bears. You cannot be lazy about camp maintenance. Bears are looking for food not a fight, they are not interested in attacking you unless you make yourself a threat. A loud noise can cause bears to run away in an emergency, but the tend to run in whatever direction their facing. Sometimes that's the wrong direction. If you have stowed your food an garbage properly, hoisted up a tree outside of camp or in a hard sided vehicle, and a bear tries for it let him have at it. The chances for things to go wrong with a bear when your up close and personal, I don't care what kind of gun you have, is huge.

rosborne

03-12-2011, 04:07 AM

The Shotgun is the better choice for stopping power. The revolver is easier to pack. DO NOT use your light load idea....one ammo, stopping ammo.

Noise can get a bear to avoid you and stop a surprise encounter. Your asking about what to take incase the noise doesn't work or you surprise a bear. Firecrackers a bad idea for emergency defense.

Oh, if you do go to a State Park in Michigan, and if it's correct as the member posted before that it is illegal to DISCHARGE a firearm in a Michigan State parks, then do ME this one favor....... if you're in an emergency situation, don't even think about that. Kill the bear and worry about the (surely misdemeanor) charge later while your still alive self comforts your still alive wife.

As for calibers...12 GA slug or .357/.44Mag/.45 Long Colt should be fine. Research bear encounters and practice your gun safety and shoooting.

One last thing.....have a good time in the woods! It's like playing in Gods back yard.

PedroNavaja

03-12-2011, 06:36 AM

For bears, nothing less than a S&W .44 magnum

Rossmeister

03-12-2011, 06:39 AM

I'm changing my mind, .44 it is :biggrin1:

SeattleSparky

03-12-2011, 06:56 AM

http://teejaw.com/2010/08/30/bear-attack-in-alaska/

"No doubt that God was with me, as I brought my Ruger .454 Casull (and some “hot” 350 grain solids) just for the heck of it. And managed to draw and snap shoot (pointed, never even aimed!) from the hip! Total luck shot!"

This guy was VERY LUCKY!

Rossmeister

03-12-2011, 06:58 AM

What's that? I get a 404 error.

probesport

03-12-2011, 07:00 AM

For bears, nothing less than a S&W .44 magnum

http://www.rc-trucks.org/Taurus-Raging-Bull-454-Handgun.jpg

You're right - so go MORE. :w00t:

Thats the .454 I mentioned on the first page - droolworthy.

Gaz

03-12-2011, 09:01 AM

I would suggest going with someone you know you can outrun as a backup.

art803

03-12-2011, 09:11 AM

no one has said the 500 s&w. i would think that would be the way to go as a hand gun.

alexseraph

03-12-2011, 09:50 AM

no one has said the 500 s&w. i would think that would be the way to go as a hand gun.
There's such a thing as too much gun, even for bear. Damn pretty though.

Gravy

03-12-2011, 10:37 AM

How fast can you run? While bears are reported to be as fast as horses you don't have to outrun the bear, just your wife. :lol:

Seriously though, the term "loaded for bear" means bringing something big.
They have very thick skulls that can deflect pistol rounds so if you decide on a pistol they better be big, heavy rounds.

I've seen "bear survival kits" advertised that include bear spray and a .500 S&W.
I'm not a fan of spray but I've heard the bear spray can be effective and has pretty good range. Maybe something your wife could carry.
I've never shot a short barreled .500 but I have shot a long barrel .454 and the recoil was manageable. Smaller than a shotgun and easier for you to carry.

ScoutHikerDad

03-12-2011, 11:22 AM

Okay-I'm going to piss some people off with this post, but that's okay-I've done it before. And on THIS issue, if no other, I've done my homework.

Alaska's dense population of grizzlies notwithstanding (never been there, so can't comment on that), anywhere in the lower 48, including grizzly havens like Southwestern Montana and Yellowstone (both of which I've backpacked without issue), as well as the black bear populations in my own Appalachians, if you are uncomfortable going into the wilderness without a firearm, maybe you shouldn't go.

I don't want to continue to stir the hornet's nest that these gun debates always seem to become, but I remember reading a story about a guided elk hunt in the MT mountains just north of Yellowstone. It may have been in the excellent Mark of the Grizzly. Anyway, the jist of the story was that a hunter was charged by an enraged sow if I recall correctly. She hit the charging bruin with a rifle shot (was either a 7 mag or a 300 mag- either way, serious firepower), and it didn't stop the bear immediately. Either she or her guide was attacked and seriously injured before it ended.

I also remember reading that the average bear attack takes place within 14 seconds after initial sighting/contact. How many of us would have the nerves to bring a weapon into firing position, get an accurate sight picture, and get off a kill-zone shot at a running, enraged bear just before it slams into you and starts tearing you a new one? And that quick shot that might kill it when it bleeds out later won't do you any good when the full force of its savagery is increased exponentially by the wound you have just inflicted. Whichever poster said that a wounded bear won't fight hasn't done much reading or studying of the subject-I have heard numerous stories to the contrary.

That is why I carry the magnum-sized can of bear spray, and try to be just "bear aware" and meticulous in avoidance/scent management when in grizz country. Here in our Western NC mountains, I run into black bear scat on many back-country fishing trips. But frankly, if a campground or back-country area develops a problem with habituated bears seeking food, I wouldn't go there until this dangerous issue is dealt with. "A fed bear is a dead bear," and Yellowstone in Wyoming, and the Smokies rangers here in my neck of the woods at least, are very proactive in doing this.

Having said all that, however, far be it for me to judge the savvy Montanan or Alaskan who packs his .454 Casull, 12-gauge with slugs, or what have you as insurance. I'm just saying, it may give a false sense of security, if the extensive research I've read by Herrero and others is true.

Whatever we use, our best "weapon" is our brains and gaining as much knowledge as we can about the habits of these magnificent predators. I am always amazed by the stories of people with decades in the back country, and only a few non-threatening bear sightings. Then you have the family of casual picnickers attacked a few years ago in the Cherokee National Forest, in which a child was killed, so you never know...

Be safe. Aaron

Don Barbiere

03-12-2011, 11:58 AM

Sorry had to :)

http://www.stardusttrailers.com/gallery_film/The_Edge(movie_wallpaper_pictures_photo_pics_poste r)(260310092953)the_edge_movie_2.jpg

Blue Raccoon

03-12-2011, 01:19 PM

I MI I assume you mean black and not grizz.. first thing keep all food away from your camp and hung from a tree out of reach. Clean up spotlessly after cooking. Shooting bears will probably get you in a heap of trouble. When hiking make noise they will general move on and not bother you unless you surprise them. Get both of you a can of bear spray. I do a lot of fishing in the GSMNP and see a few black bears but they always seem to mind their own business and keep moving. I fish Yellowstone a couple of weeks every summer and have seen Grizz but never while fishing. BTW, all the guide around Yellowstone carry 12 gauge pumps with extented tubes loaded every other shell 00 then slug.

delisle

03-12-2011, 02:09 PM

It does not matter what firearm you carry if you are proficient with it. Make sure your skill can match the threat at hand, your brain is such valuable asset, use it.

Mazeman

03-12-2011, 04:43 PM

Shotgun with slugs is best, but heavier/harder to carry around.

For handgun, .44 Magnum or better.

I wouldn't trust the .357. If that's the only handgun choice, I'd carry the shotgun.

TonyH

03-12-2011, 04:53 PM

What you really need is Leslie Neilsen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS14w5AKj34

Clovis Man

03-12-2011, 05:02 PM

I think ScoutHikerDad has the right idea. I've always felt more threatened by bad PEOPLE than bears, and making noise will almost surely make ANY wild animal move away from you.

If I KNEW I was going to have to shoot a charging bear, though -- I think I'd have some BIG rifle -- maybe an 8MM Mag or something similar. (Yes, I can handle such a rifle, I've been shooting center-fire rifles since I was 12 in 1966.)

gaseousclay

03-12-2011, 07:33 PM

I agree with some of the comments here about using common sense when in bear country. if you leave the bear alone, chances are it will leave you alone.

with that said, i'd probably feel comfortable carrying a 30-30 lever gun because they're lightweight and depending on the model could easily get 5-6 rounds off. BUT, a charging bear would more than likely sh*t me up really good, so getting an accurate shot may not happen.

probesport

03-12-2011, 07:36 PM

How about option "C"?

http://www.wanderinggoblin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/hand-grenade.jpg

falkon

03-13-2011, 12:30 AM

Yea, this really isn't that hard..... Big bores, short barrels. Some wise-guy made the "grind the front site off" joke to me once about my short barreled .454 and tried telling me a 10mm glock was better. He was stupid, and he'd never been to AK. Short barreled, large caliber revolvers are the only way to go. .44 mag/.45 LC +P minimum while in grizz country, .454 minimum for large bears. Loaded with hard cast bullets only. The Ruger Alaskan is not a marketing ploy, it's carried a lot up here. S&W now makes one too. They're easier to shoot than most people think. Sure it ain't a range gun but a couple shots isn't hard to take. Most come with overmolded rubber grips that do a great job of taming recoil. A shotgun with slugs would be great, if it was carried in the low-ready. I'm not convinced that carrying it in a backpack sling can be drawn quickly enough. However, you'll get more than a few seconds warning if you have a dog. He'll be alert and acting funny a while before, though he can also get you in trouble...

I'm in the middle about bear spray. It seems like a holstered pistol might be easier to use in a pinch than a mini fire extinguisher. I've fired a helluva lot more guns than i've used fire extinguishers..... Seems awful easy to fog/spray yourself too. There's a lot of propaganda about "bear spray is more effective than a firearm" up here. Personally, I think that the granola-crunchers at REI are responsible for that possible myth.

Edcculus

03-13-2011, 04:13 PM

Obviously, as a lot of people have said, proper bear awareness is really the most important part. I don't regularly pack heat when I'm in the back-country, but someone I'm hiking with always does. Its more for personal protection rather than protection from wildlife though.

Be smart. Learn how to use and properly hang a bear bag. Put anything that might smell in it. I usually don't adhere strictly to this policy, but I've been told on occasion to put clothes you wore while eating in the bear bag at night. That might be a little overboard, but if you are in bear country, it might not be. Make a triangle between your tent, the eating area and the bear bag. Meaning, don't eat or have any food in the tents, and dont cook or eat where you hang the bear bag. Really, the point is to make yourself as unattractive to a bear as possible.

Make noise when youre hiking. I've seen people hang small bells from their packs. If you come on a bear on the trail, you probably won't have time to fire the gun. Group together as fast as possible, and make yourselves as big and loud as possible.

The Count of Merkur Cristo

03-14-2011, 08:29 AM

If I needed a weapon for Bear defense, my weapon of choice (and the Mrs. too [she was also in the Army]), would be my 'good ole trusty' (Army issue type), pump action, 6round (+ one in the chamber), 12 gauge Mossberg M590 Shotgun. http://www.htloz.net/forums/images/smilies/awesome/shotgun3.gif

Christopherhttp://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Dragonwiz/clipart/ShotGun5.gif

life2short1971

03-14-2011, 08:38 AM

Good shoes and a slower hiking partner:lol:

mmack66

03-14-2011, 08:48 AM

garyg

03-14-2011, 08:56 AM

I read that the last bear fatality in Michigan was 1948, a three year old carried off in the UP. The next most recent 1941, Detroit, when a circus trainer let one out of a cage to play with .. I've camped & hunted all over this state, the only bear damage occurred when I forgot & left a badly sealed cooler of food out in the Porcupine Mountains & it got rolled over & cleaned out during the night. There was a highly publicized bear attack last fall where the victim according to the DNR may have been covered in fried food ... and he escaped, albeit injured, without blowing away the bears

You stand only a slightly lesser chance chance of being accosted by Babe the Blue Ox .. for whom only a double elephant gun seems reasonably heavy :001_rolle

alexseraph

03-14-2011, 10:14 AM

kzoo1

03-15-2011, 04:49 AM

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, gents! Good discussion all around. I agree that the best defense is being prepared and aware of what is around you. Taking the proper precautions, and using common sense. That said, my wife will feel better with a firearm in camp, even if the possibility of using it is extremely low.

I think I've decided to go with a Mossberg 500 "Special Purpose" as it can do double duty in camp and on the home front.

I read that the last bear fatality in Michigan was 1948, a three year old carried off in the UP. The next most recent 1941, Detroit, when a circus trainer let one out of a cage to play with .. I've camped & hunted all over this state, the only bear damage occurred when I forgot & left a badly sealed cooler of food out in the Porcupine Mountains & it got rolled over & cleaned out during the night. There was a highly publicized bear attack last fall where the victim according to the DNR may have been covered in fried food ... and he escaped, albeit injured, without blowing away the bears

You stand only a slightly lesser chance chance of being accosted by Babe the Blue Ox .. for whom only a double elephant gun seems reasonably heavy :001_rolle

If you saw a fresh pile of bear dung 25 ft. away from your camper like we did last year, you might change your tune...
This was at a State forest camp groud outside Grayling. The DNR worker said he was having a hard time keeping the bear out of the dumpster!

MoonshineXXX

03-15-2011, 05:15 AM

Check out the S&W .460 or .500 revolvers. Both will serve your purpose well.

Crag

03-15-2011, 07:12 AM

no one has said the 500 s&w. i would think that would be the way to go as a hand gun.
The 500 S&W is too big to handle properly. You want to be able to get off more than one shot in case you miss. The 454 is about as big as you want to go...I have a Dan Wesson .44 Mag that is about as big a gun as anyone would want or need in the wilds against a bear.

I say you should go to the range and shoot all the handguns mentioned and see what works best for you and your lady friend.

alexseraph

03-15-2011, 07:40 AM

I say you should go to the range and shoot all the handguns mentioned and see what works best for you and your lady friend.

+1 I agree, especially if you plan to share the responsibility of toting the firearm, you should both be able to handle it well and accurately for multiple followup shots.

My wife is probably a more accurate shot than I am (hell, why is it every woman I train gets better than me faster) but she prefers a 9mm over the beastly .45s I like.

professorchaos

03-15-2011, 07:50 AM

Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 Government.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/images/bigbore/zoom_1895G.jpg (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895G.asp)

garyg

03-15-2011, 07:53 AM

If you saw a fresh pile of bear dung 25 ft. away from your camper like we did last year, you might change your tune...
This was at a State forest camp groud outside Grayling. The DNR worker said he was having a hard time keeping the bear out of the dumpster!

I didn't realize that the bears had taken to defecating in the woods, or that they had become attracted to garbage. To Arms!
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/JohnnyCharger1968/Emoticons/th_fudd.gif

In all seriousness, you have a right to bear arms, and if it helps make SWMBO feel safer it is the thing to do, if not the only one. The Mossberg is a good choice, it will work on the two legged yogi's also .. :thumbup1:

Thebigspendur

03-15-2011, 08:17 AM

Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 Government.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/images/bigbore/zoom_1895G.jpg (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895G.asp)

Thats it. With a 45/70 you can dispose of Godzilla.

binowatch

03-15-2011, 08:24 AM

The 500 S&W is too big to handle properly. You want to be able to get off more than one shot in case you miss. The 454 is about as big as you want to go...I have a Dan Wesson .44 Mag that is about as big a gun as anyone would want or need in the wilds against a bear.

I say you should go to the range and shoot all the handguns mentioned and see what works best for you and your lady friend.

Agree! A friend bought a SW 500-5 shot cylinder-I fired one, the range master 1 and it took the rest of the afternoon for my friend to finish the cylinder. Forget rapid follow up shots in a stressful situation. I use a Smith 44 mag or a Colt Anaconda for this purpose although an old Smith 1006 has been getting an outing for this recently. It is roughly = 41 mag power, easier to control, more rounds and easier to carry.

alexseraph

03-15-2011, 08:35 AM

Agree! A friend bought a SW 500-5 shot cylinder-I fired one, the range master 1 and it took the rest of the afternoon for my friend to finish the cylinder. Forget rapid follow up shots in a stressful situation. I use a Smith 44 mag or a Colt Anaconda for this purpose although an old Smith 1006 has been getting an outing for this recently. It is roughly = 41 mag power, easier to control, more rounds and easier to carry.

There's another option too in the affordable range, the Taurus Raging Bull. http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=rb2

It certainly has points in the "oh my God you're holding a cannon" category and it is large enough to absorb some recoil for followups.

gaseousclay

03-15-2011, 10:10 AM

Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 Government.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/images/bigbore/zoom_1895G.jpg (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895G.asp)

I like :thumbup1:

professorchaos

03-15-2011, 11:16 AM

Thats it. With a 45/70 you can dispose of Godzilla.

I like :thumbup1:

I read somewhere, perhaps in Guns & Ammo's review of it, that the gun can handle rounds ballistic profiles similar to what you'd want in Africa. All I can vouch for is that it is fun to shoot and makes a hell of a noise!

LinuxMintyFresh

03-15-2011, 02:24 PM

You were doing good up until that point. :001_rolle
Agreed...:glare:

Doc4

03-15-2011, 04:25 PM

Weapons not required for good bear defence tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-xNO5HETOE

... seriously though, the best weapon is knowledge.

If you know what you are doing and see a bear at 500 yeards, you should be fine, unarmed. The real danger comes if you stumble on a bear at close quarters in dense brush, and have only a split second to react ... not enough time to bring a firearm to bear.

Avoiding the dangerous situations is 99% of the battle, and the last 1% ... 375 Holland & Holland ...

DavyRay

03-15-2011, 06:11 PM

I have been hiking solo in woods with black bears. Some times you just have to rely on luck and knowledge. I am a pretty lazy hiker, so the idea of lugging a gun large enough to be effective in stopping a bear is just too much weight for me to carry on a backpacking trip. Anyone who actually carries one of these barbells on a multi-day hike, please chime in.

Bear bells are worthless. Bears ignore them totally. The best way to keep from surprising a black bear is to snap twigs. Bears pay close attention to the sound of a twig snapping underfoot, as it indicates the presence of another large animal (possible another bear in my space?).

falkon

03-16-2011, 12:51 AM

You were doing good up until that point. :001_rolle

Hey, REI gets enough of my money. If they only sold booze, firearms and tobacco, I'd never shop anywhere else.

LinuxMintyFresh

03-16-2011, 08:20 AM

Hey, REI gets enough of my money. If they only sold booze, firearms and tobacco, I'd never shop anywhere else.

I don't think the issue was with REI...

binowatch

03-16-2011, 08:38 AM

The best thing is really a large can of bear spray-I was at a conference when it was new and a number of park rangers told their own experiences with it-the stuff really works. Black bears are rarely a real problem, Grizzlies are something else. That said, it is my understanding that no one using a hand gun as successfully defended against a Brownie without injury. For bears carry spray. I carry a handgun around here because of Mountain Lions and two legged predators you might encounter on the hike. One reason I am comfortable with the 10mm.

kzoo1

03-16-2011, 09:41 AM

Can anyone recommend a specific brand/style of bear spray?

Can't have too many back up solutions!

Thanks!

binowatch

03-16-2011, 05:52 PM

Can anyone recommend a specific brand/style of bear spray?

Can't have too many back up solutions!

Thanks!

Counter Assault Bear Deterrent - this is the brand issued to the authorities in British Columbia. It is made in Kalispell Mt. 8.1 oz size

AdamBomb

03-16-2011, 06:17 PM

Instead of reading all four pages of recommendations I'm just gonna give my two cents worth here. I am by no means an expert but I've had the pleasure of living in two different parts of Alaska, Kodiak and Sitka, both inhabited by the brown bear.
As most know Kodiak brown bears are considered some of the largest in the world. I've also been fortunate enough to attend training or discussions on "living with the bear". While killing a bear during self defense is not looked at as a first choice it's sometimes the only choice. When a bear is charging you you only have a matter of seconds to sight in and shoot. If you pull the bear spray you better hope the wind is to your back, and it's likely your not gonna think about something like that with your adrenaline pumping and hands shaking. Firepower is better than no firepower. A rifle is good but you gotta get it off your shoulder and swing it around. Hopefully you'll have it around and ready to go before the s*^~ hits the fan. I use a Taurus 44 Magnum revolver with a 320+ grain slug not hollow point. Hollow points start to spread when they hit and may not penetrate the skull if aiming for the head. I get to the range as much as possible so that I feel comfortable and confident with my firearm should the need arise.

One final recommendation. Even though they are large they are stealthy and smart. They track their prey. If you're hiking and get the feeling a bear is around then he probably is. Turn around and leave before you pass him and he walks out on the trail and blocks your way out.

Good luck.

smokelaw1

03-17-2011, 11:11 AM

www.wildwestguns.com/copilot.html

never fired one, but want one. Probably not in .50, as I don't live or hike in Brown Ber country. I think .45/70 maybe.

Nishnabotna

03-21-2011, 06:06 AM

Can anyone recommend a specific brand/style of bear spray?

Can't have too many back up solutions!

Thanks!

UDAP is a good one, too.

rupertbear

04-01-2011, 07:53 AM

A lot of people have made a lot of good points here, wspecially regarding the necessity for being aware of what you are doing and having a clean camp.

I will respectfully disagree with most choices of firearms. I prefer a twin trigger double barrel shotgun with slugs. In a real bear attack you don't have time for fiddling about and the first shot is the most important. Forget about "warning shots" because studies by the USFS in AK have shown that they mostly don't work. By the bye, this has also been my own experience. A double barrel is the fastest for a second shot, and if you need more than that and haven't bought yourself sufficient time to reload, you are likely being mauled. If the first barrel goes "click" you have a second chance. Should you choose to go with a pump practice. A lot. Short stroking and failure to fully seat the bolt forward are easy events when the SHTF.

Just remember that you have a far greater chance of getting in an accident on the drive to the camping area than you do in encountering a bear that really wants a piece of you.

Good luck, and good camping.

ofelas

04-01-2011, 08:22 AM

I use a cutdown Model 12 loaded with Brenneke slugs.

SO758

04-01-2011, 08:47 AM

Shotgun with slugs or a handy .44 mag.

hometownhero

04-01-2011, 09:14 AM

Just get a full auto whatever you want. No need to worry about slow shooting. Something like this should do a good job

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=762Ds0VqXYg&feature=related

mandoman

04-01-2011, 09:30 AM

Shotgun all the way :wink2:

arghblech

04-01-2011, 09:48 AM

I generally just tell the bear that I'm flattered by their interest but not into their particular lifestyle. They generally apologize and excuse themselves tout suite.

fireengineer2004

04-01-2011, 10:21 AM

Greyfox

04-01-2011, 10:47 AM

A good pair of tennis shoes might be a good backup to any weapon you chose unless you are proficient with it.

hometownhero

04-01-2011, 10:52 AM

A good pair of tennis shoes might be a good backup to any weapon you chose unless you are proficient with it.

I wouldnt wear tennis shoes in the woods. Hikers is the footwear for outdoors.

73mountaineer

04-01-2011, 11:01 AM

A good pair of tennis shoes might be a good backup to any weapon you chose unless you are proficient with it.

I wouldnt wear tennis shoes in the woods. Hikers is the footwear for outdoors.

Pssst, he was joking :wink2:

:biggrin1:

rfm2

04-01-2011, 05:01 PM

This question is endlessly debated here in Alaska. If you want to kill some time, go to

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/

and search "bear gun". People have strong opinions...:ohmy:

Personally, I carry a .44 magnum when in areas of limited visibility because I believe it is easier than a shotgun to swing quickly, but a 12g shotgun with slugs has more stopping power. I also carry bear spray on hikes around my house.

As has been stated before, whatever you choose, practice and become comfortable with it so you aren't hesitant or afraid to use it should the time come.

Aku Aku

04-01-2011, 06:49 PM

If it's a handgun, the .500 S&W Magnum is a fifty-caliber and that is what I would want with bears nearby. One shot may be all you will get. Better make it count.

DavyRay

04-01-2011, 07:24 PM

I generally just tell the bear that I'm flattered by their interest but not into their particular lifestyle. They generally apologize and excuse themselves tout suite.

I think that is mostly true with city bears.

Linyx

04-01-2011, 07:34 PM

a Raging Bull 454 Casull :w00t:
+1 for the Raging Bull.

And there is always: How To Survive a Bear Attack (http://artofmanliness.com/2008/01/30/how-to-survive-a-bear-attack/)

OLDMAN

04-07-2011, 04:12 PM

Dennis

04-07-2011, 07:32 PM

goby

04-12-2011, 07:23 AM

I am shaking my head a bit at this thread. I've hiked all over Michigan - upper peninsula, lower peninsula, out for days and weeks at a time in really remote areas. In all that time, I've seen 1 bear, and it was while I was in a car driving to a trail head. Just because I haven't seen one doesn't mean I haven't seen evidence of them. Michigan has Black bears. These bears are still quite scared of humans and the hopes are that they stay that way. Take standard precautions - if you are in the back woods, don't cook where you sleep. Hang your food and utensils that contacted food. Don't put food in your tent or shelter while you sleep.

I've never carried a weapon while hiking and never felt the need for it, but I can understand people that do. I hunt whitetails and turkeys regularly and had a CCW permit for years that I recently let lapse. Keep in mind also that if you are going to take a firearm into the woods, you best have a hunting license. I've seen way more DNR officers in the woods than bears.

I agree. I hike where there are black bears, and have always just yelled when I see one. They are so damn big, but luckily they are afraid of humans. I hang my food and cook away from camp. Humans are much more dangerous than bears. I also talk loud (even when I'm by myself) when I go through thick blackberry patches.

The only scary bears are Grizzlies and Yosemite bears. But there are plenty of rangers in Yosemite that will protect you.

vaquer03

06-20-2011, 09:28 PM

Been charged twice, both grizzly. What are you fastest with and feel the most comfortable with? Often you're only going to get one shot, but it will be at very close range. Aim center mass.

El Comanche

06-21-2011, 03:55 AM

Obviously there are many opinions on this subject. IMO many come up short because they do not have a comprehensive plan when it comes to bear avoidance and defense. These are my suggestions.

1. Start reading. Get Gary Shelton (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=gary+shelton+bear&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Agary+shelton+bear&ajr=0) and Stephen Hererro's (http://www.amazon.com/Bear-Attacks-Causes-Avoidance-revised/dp/158574557X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308653073&sr=8-1) books on bear behavior; they are the most up to date and authoritative on the subject. How you handle various situations with both black bears and grizzly can be totally different. These things can save your life before a weapon can. Learn how to handle your food, and how to hike and camp in bear areas.

2. Carry pepper spray with a hip or chest holster that is always on you. Counter Assault and UDAP (http://www.udap.com/) are good. It can be very effective but there are two major problems with it. One, if the wind is in your face, it is useless. You will disable yourself. If conditions are perfect, it works about 72% in documented cases from what I remember. Between the wind and that 28%, the odds are not enough for me to rely solely on this. But there are situations that I would.

3. I carry a lightweight .357 revolver in Washington with 180g hard cast rounds from Buffalo Bore and a .44 mag when in Grizzly territory. A perfect grizzly rig for me is a stainless Ruger Redhawk (http://www.ruger.com/products/redhawk/specSheets/5004.html) with 5 1/2" barrel, Garrett's 330 hard cast rounds (http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html)(Randy offers proof these have more than twice the penetration of a .375 H&H), and a Diamond D guide's choice holster (http://www.diamonddcustomleather.com/Chest_Holsters.php). You want a rig you can carry comfortably all day and that can be drawn quickly, with a round that hits hard and penetrates. NO hollow points. For me, a shotgun though effective, simply won't be in your hands all the time, and in certain situations, they are not as quick to action as a chest holstered .44 magnum. A handgun on you is better than a shotgun 20 feet away.

Take classes. Safety with firearms is paramount. If you are going to carry a gun, don’t make those of us who are responsible look bad. Practice, practice, practice. If you cannot draw fast enough and place a head or spine shot, then you will certainly seal your death by shooting a grizzly. It is a last resort. Still, don't listen to people that say you can't save yourself with a handgun against a grizzly. Alaskan guides do it every year. You just have to take on the responsibility of learning safe gun handling, and effective marksmanship.

4. UDAP (http://www.udap.com/) makes a light weight (3lb 7oz) portable 27’ X 27’, 6,000 volt electric fence that you can set up around your tent/camp in 5-10 minutes. These are effective and being used a lot in Alaska now and meet USDA Forest Service Recommendations. Not only does this keep a nosy bear away, but can help you sleep a bit better.

Yes, these things can add up to some $. But for $1000, I have everything I need to keep my family safe. That is a small price to pay if you are in bear territory often. My wife carries the pepper spray, I carry the gun. I’ve discussed this further with Gary Shelton via email and he agrees this is a good way to go.

We also carry a small air horn for tall brush/loud river areas where we might spook a bear and as another deterrent.

So far so good. Had one yell at me once and one sniff the tent before I purchased the fence, but they are usually on their own trip not worrying about you to be honest. It’s the bad seed or bad situation that you have to be prepared for.

Hope this is helpful. This post is not to point out that any one of your ideas are wrong or to start another debate, but to point out that there is not one simple solution for all situations. Sometimes a person’s politics, feelings and/or lack of knowledge of the subject do not hold up to the complex truths of bear behavior. Someone saying the chances are too slim of anything bad happening to bother worrying about it is just not enough for me. I choose to err on the cautious side when it comes to 600-1000 pound predators. It is not about whether pepper spray or guns are more effective for me, but rather when it is appropriate to use either one. More important, I respect bears enough to try and understand them and avoid them. The last thing I ever want to do is to kill a bear. But I would if it came between him and my family. - E

eastomjac

06-21-2011, 04:10 AM

I would agree a handgun would be my last choice as protection from bear and a shotgun would be a better option.

The only other problem I see is that if it is a Michigan State Park it is against the law to discharge a firearm or even carry fireworks into the park. If it is a private camp ground you may need to contact the owner/operator to see what they allow. I am not sure how flexible the DNR may be this year with the firearm/fireworks regulations if there are a large number of sitings though.
+1.you better check the regs,it would probably be better to be mauled by the bear than deal with the charges of killing one .i know its a sad state of affairs when the bears are more important than we are,but MIhas some different ideas about guns and things

Jwolf24601

06-21-2011, 03:51 PM

Black/Brown bear a .357 would be good choice. Make sure you are proficient with it, should take some self defence classes specializing in quick draw and accurate fire. You should also consider a concealed weapons permit too. Some rangers like to be dicks and consider a weapon concealed if your jacket falls over it.

Shotgun seems unweildy, unless you're going to carry it like you're going through the jungles of Vietnam it might be to difficult to bring to "bear" in time. (yay pun!)

KM-instructor

06-21-2011, 04:28 PM

luvmysuper

06-21-2011, 04:45 PM

I'd like to hear why bear spray in a pocket or holster would be faster than a chest holstered .44?
FWIW - a .44 round has no problem traveling against a prevailing wind.

KM-instructor

06-21-2011, 05:44 PM

I'd like to hear why bear spray in a pocket or holster would be faster than a chest holstered .44?
FWIW - a .44 round has no problem traveling against a prevailing wind.
Your right.

Some info.

Individuals who panic, run, or fight an aggressive grizzly bear usually end up with the worst injuries. Keep in mind though that in most cases during a surprise encounter grizzly bears will run or leave the area once they have become aware of your presence.

Humans are NOT on the list of preferred food items for grizzly bears, and most bears want to avoid humans as much as possible.

During a close surprise encounter a grizzly bear may knock a person down, possibly claw them or even bite them but only in rare cases has a grizzly bear eaten a human and probably only after the bear inadvertently killed the person and then considered the body as a potential food item. In most cases a grizzly bear will run away even after they have knocked a person down and mauled them.

Here is the Key:

In virtually every mauling, each and every time a hiker has been charged and attacked by an angry, surprised grizzly bear. Once the person quit fighting, quit screaming and laid quiet.........the bear has in nearly every case..........run or walked away. Grizzly bears want nothing to do with humans and are only mauling you, the hiker because they feel threatened and will continue to maul you as long as you are fighting and threatening them.

In a recent research project conducted in Yellowstone Park, bear researchers approached radio collared grizzly bears, and in 90% of the encounters each bear ran or moved off once the bear noticed the researcher nearby. The remaining 10% of encounters resulted in one or more of the following; the bear standing, making aggressive noises and/or making a short bluff charge BEFORE turning and running or moving away from the researcher.

As of 2010 firearms are allowed within Yellowstone National Park, but must be in compliance with applicable federal and state law. Firearms are not allowed in any Federal Building---Visitor Centers, Post Office, etc........The way I understand it is, Yellowstone Park is within the boundaries of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. If you happen to be within the Montana section of Yellowstone you must comply with Montana state laws regarding the holding, possession and transport of firearms as well as the permits for each state. The same is true if you happen to be in Idaho or the Wyoming sections. Outside of Yellowstone Park boundaries hunters or individuals who have shot at grizzly bears have generally ended up with serious injuries about 40% of the time. Shooting a charging grizzly bear can be very difficult and will require nerves of steel. If you miss or just wound the bear you can count of getting seriously mauled, or killed.

Boat Air Horns are not allowed in the backcountry, or on hiking trails inside Yellowstone Park but can be used while boating on Yellowstone Lake.

Hikers and hunters who have stood their ground, stayed calm, played dead or have sprayed "bear spray" have generally walked away with few, or no injuries. Spraying pepper spray (bear spray) and or falling to the ground and "playing dead" should ONLY be done as a last resort. Remember, most bears will run or move away once they have noticed or heard you. Dealing with an aggressive or pushy black bear should be handled differently. More on this below.

The majority of all bear mauling's have been with female (sow) grizzly bears and cubs and the majority of those mauling's could have been avoided had the hiker or hikers made noise while hiking and paid more attention to the area they were about to hike into. More on this below too.

Bear attacks can be classified as two separate types:
Defensive and Predatory

A defensive attack, the most common type of bear attack, is generally the result of a surprise encounter and almost always with a sow (female) and her cubs. In nearly every mauling that has occurred in the past during a surprise encounter, once the hiker quit fighting and laid quiet, the sow has grabbed her cubs and run or walked away,
Hikers in this situation could have avoided the charge and possible mauling by paying closer attention to the area they were about to hike into. Making plenty of noise, and alerting any nearby bears of their presence. Most bears will approach to within 30 feet or so, before deciding to attack or retreat.

Predatory attacks are much different and are generally a result of a black bear or even mountain lion, but there have been a few reported cases of grizzly bears being involved in a predatory attack.

Predatory attacks by bears usually start off slowly and calmly when one or two hikers encounter a bear at some distance and the bear slowly approaches them and the hikers try to move away only to have the bear follow them. Basically what is happening is the bear is testing the hikers, and possibly the bear may have done this in the past and had a timid hiker drop their pack or even food on the ground and the bear has obtained a food reward and has learned that pushing people will result in a "reward". Or, the bear may actually be looking at the hiker or couple as a potential food source.

This latter scenario is more common with black bears although it has happened with grizzly (brown) bears and if the bear is not aggressively pushed back or sprayed with "bear spray" the bear has finally attacked and then consumed the person.

The following are general rules of thumb. Keep in mind that bears are unpredictable and what worked for one hiker with one particular bear may not work the next day................. even with the same bear. And once in awhile no matter what you do is going to result in a mauling. It could be as simple as "sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you".

In a defensive attack, if a grizzly bear does charge it will probably be very fast and explosive:

Stay Calm

Be prepared for an encounter or emergency at any moment. Heading off into the backcountry thinking "it won't happen to me" , will only get you into trouble.

Never run or scream. Grizzly bears can sprint between 30-35 miles per hour .......about 44 feet per second. You can not out run a charging grizzly bear.

Climb a tree only if you have time. In most cases people who have tried to climb trees did not have enough time, and were dragged out of the tree they were attempting to climb. Grizzly bears have been observed climbing 30 feet into trees, so climb at least 31 feet http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/GIFS/smile.gif. The average distance hikers have first noticed that there was a bear nearby prior to a charge is 14 feet! More on this (http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/b_spray.html#close)

Stand your ground initially and see what the bear is going to do. If you are in a large group of 4 or more, stay together in a group mass to look larger.

There is some evidence that you should not look the bear directly in the eye, but look down and to the side acting submissive keeping the bear in your vision. Wild animals communicate with body language. Any bear encountering larger, dominant adult bears move their heads to the side and slightly downward while backing up, or off to the side which is a sign of submission.

Dropping a hat or coat seems to work, while slowly backing up,

Talking softly seems to work very well and helps to diffuse the situation. A few individuals have had success at yelling and waving their arms but the evidence suggests that you are better off staying calm and not yelling.

Never take your pack off. If later on you are forced to drop to the ground you will want your pack on your back for protection. Plus, there is some evidence that bears can become conditioned when encountering hikers that panic and drop their packs at first sight of a bear and then raid those packs for food, making the next human encounter very dangerous for the next hikers.

Drop down and lay flat on the ground with your hands on the back of your neck.....only as a last resort when it becomes obvious that the charging bear is not going to stop and is about to make contact. Do not move or make noise until it is obvious that the bear has left the area. Grizzlies will often re-attack if the person moves or makes noise.

Spray "Bear Spray" only as a last resort, but before dropping to the ground. In most cases the sound of the first shot from a canister of bear spray has stopped or slowed a charging bear.

Stay together in a tight group. Bears are more reluctant to attack or charge a group of people than they are one lone person.

Pay attention to your surroundings!! In most cases hikers could have avoided encounters with bears by paying attention to the surrounding area they were about to hike into and left the area once they spotted a bear nearby.
With the average distance of 14 feet that hikers have first noticed a bear nearby prior to an attack tells us that most people stare at the ground while hiking. Over the course of two summers I walked down several trails 100 yards and then stepped off to the side of the trail 6 feet, sitting in plain sight with a cooler and clipboard, not one single hiker ever noticed me. Its a wonder we don't have more mauling's each year, and probably due to the fact that most bears would rather avoid humans.

If you encounter an aggressive black bear or mountain lion react aggressively. Fight back aggressively. Black bears and mountain lions are predatory and have been known to stalk, or test humans and eat them if given the chance. On average 3 people a year are killed and eaten by black bears in North America. Most of those deaths have occurred in the Great Smoky Mountains, and Canada. Often with women napping or reading a book while their husbands were fishing nearby.

Bears In Camp At Night

Having a bear in camp late at night is completely different than a chance encounter during the day. If you have a bear come into camp at night, this is a bear that has possibly been fed or received some sort of reward (food) in the past when it has come into a campground or residential area or it could be a very old or very young bear during a "bad bear food year" when natural bear foods are hard to find and could possibly be looking at you as a potential food source. React aggressively, no matter what specie of bear.
When a bear comes into a camp, especially at night, we know that this is not a typical bear encounter but a bear that has possibly been conditioned to humans and human food, trash, etc...."Grizzly bears usually enter camping areas at a walk and at night. Before an attack, a person seldom sees any signs of aggression." Writes, Dr. Stephen Herrero in his book "Bear Attacks, Their Causes and Avoidance". Individuals who have aggressively yelled at the bear or thrown rocks or other objects to distract the bear, generally have then had time to move away to safety or, they drove the bear away with the first yell and aggressive action.
Stay together in a group. Never leave your tent area alone. Bears are more reluctant to attack a group of people than they are a single person.
Identifying (http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/bears.html) the type of bear you are dealing with can be a problem for some folks. Remember, color can not be used for identification. You wouldn't want to act submissive to a predatory black bear, nor would you want to act aggressively towards a defensive grizzly bear.

A Note On "Bear Bells"

Bear bells are generally a grouping of several small bells, sometimes just one bell, often attached to hiking boots, walking staff's, backpacks, etc.. The responses of grizzly bears to the sound of bear bells has not been studied experimentally. However, there have been rumors of data collected which indicate that hikers wearing "bear bells" have reported seeing more bears. Possibly due to curiosity, if in fact this data exists.
Obviously the more noise you make the better, but the locals call the sound of bear bells "ringing the dinner bell"http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/GIFS/smile.gif, and I have to admit the sound of bells ringing off in the distance seems a bit intrusive to me. After all, we are the visitors when we step on the trail.
Periodic sounds of clapping and maybe a "Hey Bear!" once in awhile just seems to fit better and do as well, or better than the constant ringing of bells. Your choice.
Generally groups of 4 or more will make enough noise talking while they hike to alert any bear, much less any other nearby animal of their presence.

Examining a real life "typical" bear encounter in Yellowstone.

Sept. 14, 2005
3:15 PM
Pat McDonald, 52, of Bismarck, N.D., and Gerald Holzer, 51, of Northfield, Minn., were hiking on a trail near Shoshone Lake in the park's southern portion. They were roughly a mile from their designated campsite when they met two hikers who said they had seen a black bear or a grizzly. "So we were alert," Holzer said. A little farther up the trail they came upon a loose, splatty pile of bear scat.

The pair were on their way to a backcountry campsite and decided to continue, although they "began making noise in an attempt to deter a possible bear encounter," a news release said.

Just spotting bear scat on the trail is no cause for real alarm, but should be a caution. Bears use trails as much as people do. It is the point of least resistance. Hike down a perfectly good trail, or climb over deadfall? Grizzly bears also prefer open grassland meadows, unlike black bears who prefer the timber. Most hikers are unaware of this fact and generally "watch the timber". A 3.5 foot tall (from ground to top of back) grizzly bear can disappear like a ghost in an open, rolling grassland meadow.

The hikers did the right thing in this case by making noise, but I wonder if they were making enough noise? Without speaking with them directly, I'm not sure, but feel pretty confident that they probably continued to hike at their normal pace and probably watched the trail too closely (the use of hiking poles). It is possible that they hurried their pace in an effort to see the bear for themselves. A very common occurrence each year.

Hikers in this situation should slow down, and stop frequently. Look at the trail less, and watch the surrounding area they are about to hike into more closely. Look for ears, or hair blowing in the wind through the grass. In most cases you are not going to see a full sized animal in rolling meadow terrain. Maybe just the top of the back of the bear, or the top of a head. Maybe just some hair blowing, or other slight movement which you would not see if your staring at the trail.

Make plenty of noise. Depending on the season and how fresh I thought the scat might be, I would probably also unstrap the bear spray and have it ready for use, just in case. Especially if hikers heading out of the area reported spotting a bear just down the trail, and depending on my "sixth sense", I might even stop the hike and return to the road.

About a quarter-mile further along the trail, they crossed a knoll and "were charged by a grizzly at full stride," the release said.

Holzer, who was in front, side-stepped the bear. McDonald stepped behind some trees and dropped to the ground. The bear ran past him, but returned and swatted at him, then turned to Holzer, who had dropped to the ground and was lying on his stomach.

The bear jumped on Holzer's back, swatted at him, then retreated about 50 yards "where they could hear it snorting." Huffs and snorts are signs of an agitated bear.

Perfect response. Both hikers kept their packs on their backs, which protected them during the swatting.

However, it is unknown how far apart they "sidestepped" from each other. It may have been better had they sidestepped together in the same direction. Possibly moving behind the tree together, while slowly backing up would have been a better option. Bears are less likely to attack multiple people than they are one person. Once hikers have moved apart, charging bears have been more likely to attack.

McDonald then began removing the wrist straps from his hiking poles so he could reach the bear spray at his waist. The bear then attacked, and started working on McDonald's leg.

This is where McDonald did the wrong thing. At this point in the attack it was too late to think about bear spray and moving only forced the bear to re-attack. ( I hate hiking poles, It requires you to look at the ground much more so you don't get the poles tangled up in underbrush and makes grabbing the bear spray more difficult).

Bear attack victims who have "gone to the ground" should remain motionless until they are certain the bear has left the area. The majority of bear attacks are a result of a surprise encounter and a perception on the bear's part that the hiker is a threat. Usually ending when the bear perceives that the threat has been removed. Bear attacks are rarely fatal

Nevertheless, he was able to retrieve the spray and doused the bear in the face. The bear then ran off.

He was probably lucky that he was able to get to the can and not lose it during this re-attack. Most victims lose the can during the attack, or are so nervous and excited that they are unable to make use of the spray.

Again, it would have been better if they both had layed quiet until they were certain that the bear had left the area and not moved. The only time I would consider reaching for the bear spray or moving in any way after dropping to the ground would be; if the bear were seriously mauling my friend. Don't worry, you'll know when its a serious case. The sounds of your friend and the attack itself will tell you.

kopio

06-21-2011, 08:31 PM

Your right.

Some info.....

Good info and all....but you could have just put up a link rather than paste a page of stuff. BTW...since you found it on the internet it must be true :bored:

FWIW....I'll carry my 357 that I've been shooting for over 20 years. If I have time to sidestep, I have time to draw and shoot.

You can keep your bear spray and backpacks.....if you don't mind getting swatted a couple of times by a bear and hoping it will run away once you calm down enough to "stop moving" have right at it.

For me...I'll just shoot the dang thing and be done with it.

KM-instructor

06-21-2011, 08:51 PM

Good info and all....but you could have just put up a link rather than paste a page of stuff. BTW...since you found it on the internet it must be true :bored:

FWIW....I'll carry my 357 that I've been shooting for over 20 years. If I have time to sidestep, I have time to draw and shoot.

You can keep your bear spray and backpacks.....if you don't mind getting swatted a couple of times by a bear and hoping it will run away once you calm down enough to "stop moving" have right at it.

For me...I'll just shoot the dang thing and be done with it.

Your welcome.
I'm sure in Texas it's not against the law to shoot anything, but here there are ramifications for shooting bears, which can include prison time.

Slash McCoy

06-21-2011, 09:39 PM

If you need a pistol to defend yourself against a bear, or bear spray, you are already in deep doo-doo. First priority is to avoid a bear encounter in the first place, obviously.

If you have to shoot a bear, remember that they have really tough skulls and a lot of flesh and bone covering the vital organs. .357? Not me, no way. I wouldn't bother with less than a .44 mag. There is a big difference between hunting a bear, and taking an aimed shot from 40 yards or more away, and being surprised by a charging bear only a few yards away. Dropping such a dangerous animal in its tracks is imperative in a defense situation.

Whether you go with a pistol or spray, HAVE IT IN YOUR HAND, READY TO DEPLOY INSTANTLY when the possibility of a bear encounter is high. It could mean the difference between getting two or three shots off, or only one, or none at all.

JM2C, and I will state for the record that I have never been attacked by a bear and have only ever seen two in the wild so I'm no bear expert. But I would not feel much more comfortable with a .357 for bear defense than nothing at all. A .44 would be much more reassuring, and in the event of an encounter, I am sure it would perform much more effectively than a .357.

MrMurphy

06-22-2011, 05:32 AM

.44 Mag and a shotgun or a rifle.

To me the weight is effectively irrelevant, i've gone 'hiking' with 30lb machine guns and coming home alive is a priority. If i'm crazy enough to go hike in bear country i'm smart enough to go properly equipped. Also more aware of surroundings than your average hiker.

Oddest technique i knew of surviving a bear encounter was a friend, a Boy Scout, was hiking with his dad and 3 other scouts. They ran into a black bear. At his dad's command they all froze and kept talking to each other. Apparently the multitude of voices from "nowhere" weirded the bear out and it left.

If it had been somewhere other than California, dad would have been armed and much happier.

luvmysuper

06-22-2011, 05:46 AM

I had to laugh at this;
"Outside of Yellowstone Park boundaries hunters or individuals who have shot at grizzly bears have generally ended up with serious injuries about 40% of the time. Shooting a charging grizzly bear can be very difficult and will require nerves of steel. If you miss or just wound the bear you can count of getting seriously mauled, or killed."

You gotta love statistics eh?

First of all, if in a position where you'd have to shoot at a grizzly, I'd think that you were probably in iminent danger of being mauled.
Most sane people don't hike around and try to shoot random bears like some kid with a BB gun and a flock of birds. Is there a small number of people who are just plain stupid? Sure. You betcha. Do they number in any amount that would significantly contribute to this statistic? unlikely.

Reading it that way, this statistic means that of the iminent maulings by grizzly bears, 60% were effectively deterred by the use of a firearm. There appears to be no statistical data on how many were deterred by the sound of the shot, even if the bear was not hit. The account stated that bears were deterred by the "sound" of the bear spray going off. So are we saying that bears are deterred by the sound of bear spray going off but are not deterred by the sound of gunfire?

Stay away from bears. Know what bears behavior is at certain times of the year. Do what you need to do to make yourself audible so as not to surprise any.

Folks can quote stats all day long but the bottom line is this;
If I had a bear approaching me with obviously bad intent and had to choose either a can of bear spray or a .44 - you can bet it won't be bear spray.

Follow the law. If it's illegal to carry a firearm - DON'T DO IT.

FWIW - If I had to choose between the possibility of a fine or some county jail time for carrying a legal firearm and using it against a bear or the possibility of being killed by a bear - that's a pretty darned easy choice.

KM-instructor

06-22-2011, 09:40 AM

FWIW - If I had to choose between the possibility of a fine or some county jail time for carrying a legal firearm and using it against a bear or the possibility of being killed by a bear - that's a pretty darned easy choice.

LOL don't forget your soap on a rope then.

chuckr9

06-22-2011, 09:49 AM

My last trip to Yellowstone the wife bought a bear size can of pepper spray (intended to fend off Yogi or Boo Boo). A lot less likley to get someone (or thier kids) injured than a firearm. In Michigan the danger is when someone tries to interfere with the bear getting into food at a campground - best to not have the food where they are atrtracted to it, or just move away and let them have it!

mandoman

06-22-2011, 10:17 AM

how about a 357 that should stop anything

Slash McCoy

06-22-2011, 02:16 PM

how about a 357 that should stop anything

ROTFLMAO! No, it won't! Certainly not reliably and quickly enough. Even a .44 is marginal in this case, but for most shooters it is the heaviest caliber handgun that can be practically used. A .50 AE or a .454 Casull would be much, much better if the shooter is comfortable deploying a hand cannon like that. I say only settle for the heaviest caliber weapon that the shooter can proficiently handle, and in most cases this will be a .44 magnum revolver. Remember, if a charging bear lives even a couple of seconds after being shot, you could die or be horribly injured. A .357? It is a possible case of little gun beats no gun at all, and that's about the best thing I can say about it. For a charging bear that MUST be INSTANTLY incapacitated, a .357 is pretty small.

rajagra

06-22-2011, 02:55 PM

Apologies if this excellent advice has been posted elsewhere. (Be sure to read right to the end.)

178506

mandoman

06-22-2011, 03:03 PM

how about a machine gun oozy then that should stop a bare they shoot fast and you could strap it around your shoulder

luvmysuper

06-22-2011, 03:30 PM

How about a small tactical nuke?

:lol:

BigFoot

06-22-2011, 06:47 PM

How about a small tactical nuke?

:lol:

I go into bear country armed with Bigfoot.

kopio

06-22-2011, 08:35 PM

Apologies if this excellent advice has been posted elsewhere. (Be sure to read right to the end.)

178506
That there is funny....I don't care who you are.

I think one of the issues that is coming up in this thread is people who are more opposed to handguns or guns period, and people who happen to like them. The OP is obviously comfortable with guns, so he is asking advice from other gun owners. A lot of people have weighed in on this thread that I would guess have never owned or perhaps even shot a gun.

The above sign is funny, but it's also worth noting that it's from B.C. Canada, where gun ownership is HIGHLY curtailed. Here in the US....we own guns. Here in Texas, everybody owns guns. It's part of our country's make-up for better or worse. We gained our independence from England, because a lot of Joe Blows got ticked off enough to pick up their guns and thumb their nose at England. I can understand people coming from a different from a different standpoint...and that's fine....you're entitled to your opinion. However, it's just that...we and yes we all have one!

The bottom line is....if you're carrying for bear...I'd go with a minimum of a 357 loaded with 180 grain hard cast rounds. I looked into moving to Alaska before I came to Texas, and I started looking at getting a Taurus Raging Bull in a .454 Casull. I have a good buddy from school who is from Alaska, and that's what he carries with him. You do want to make sure you have enough to drop a big target with one shot. With a 6 foot black bear....a .357 would do the trick....anything bigger than that and it's better to have too much gun than not enough.

kopio

06-22-2011, 08:35 PM

I go into bear country armed with Bigfoot.

One of my favorite quotes is, "I carry a gun, because a cop is too heavy."

BigFoot

06-23-2011, 05:16 AM

That there is funny....I don't care who you are.

I think one of the issues that is coming up in this thread is people who are more opposed to handguns or guns period, and people who happen to like them. The OP is obviously comfortable with guns, so he is asking advice from other gun owners. A lot of people have weighed in on this thread that I would guess have never owned or perhaps even shot a gun.

The above sign is funny, but it's also worth noting that it's from B.C. Canada, where gun ownership is HIGHLY curtailed. Here in the US....we own guns. Here in Texas, everybody owns guns. It's part of our country's make-up for better or worse. We gained our independence from England, because a lot of Joe Blows got ticked off enough to pick up their guns and thumb their nose at England. I can understand people coming from a different from a different standpoint...and that's fine....you're entitled to your opinion. However, it's just that...we and yes we all have one!

The bottom line is....if you're carrying for bear...I'd go with a minimum of a 357 loaded with 180 grain hard cast rounds. I looked into moving to Alaska before I came to Texas, and I started looking at getting a Taurus Raging Bull in a .454 Casull. I have a good buddy from school who is from Alaska, and that's what he carries with him. You do want to make sure you have enough to drop a big target with one shot. With a 6 foot black bear....a .357 would do the trick....anything bigger than that and it's better to have too much gun than not enough.

I agree with your statement, but if you want to carry a .454 make sure you shoot the heck out of it so you can hit something with it. That baby packs a punch. I remember the first time I shot a Desert Eagle I about had the big one.:w00t:

El Comanche

07-21-2011, 11:35 AM

Neither one will work that great, by the time you where to shoot off a couple of rounds you'll be bear meat, just grab a bear spray you'll have more of a chance , armed with spray, make noise when coming into wooded areas, they will more than likely run from you over confrontation.
This simply is not true, or based on any significant data. Alaskan guides save their lives and those they are guiding every year with firearms. Pepper spray is worthless in high winds or light wind in your face, but we do carry it for the right conditions. But I agree about making noise, avoidance is always best.:001_smile

Hornwort

07-22-2011, 05:25 AM

A lick of common sense, a spot of resourcefulness and a small measure of situational awareness are all you need.

Save yourself the weight and currency.

KM-instructor

07-22-2011, 06:43 AM

This simply is not true, or based on any significant data. Alaskan guides save their lives and those they are guiding every year with firearms. Pepper spray is worthless in high winds or light wind in your face, but we do carry it for the right conditions. But I agree about making noise, avoidance is always best.:001_smile

Swings and roundabouts, some places you can carry a firearm and some you can't, the places you can't then a spray is your only defense, so better to have that than nothing at all.

hgrail

07-23-2011, 07:26 PM

I would take a rifle over a shotgun (30 cal or better), a 12ga with slugs over a handgun, a 44 over a 357 and a 357 over a 45. Of course even a 38 beats throwing rocks..

As I understand it the biggest problem with bear is their skulls are incredibly thick - and penetrating the bone is difficult with pretty much anything but a high powered rifle. A handgun is useful when portability is necissary - I'm surprised to see recommendataions on the 45 since it's a fairly slow and heavy round - not sure it would really help you much in this particular situation. Handguns are problematic also (as mentioned) because if the bear is in handgun range - you are already too close.

Given the opportunity I would steer clear of bear when possible and this means being smart about your travel and espec your food and trash.

If I couldn't avoid a confrontation I might also fire a warning shot to see if it spooks the bear and he runs. That would be ideal as far as I am concerned.

Godan

07-23-2011, 07:46 PM

Among the sensible posts above are those stressing practice. From any practical carry mode, a long gun is usually much slower to bring into action than a pistol, but both are worthless if the bear arrives at you before the bullet arrives at the bear. I don't recommend warning shots, ever. Ask yourself if you are temperamentally suited to practice enough to hit a head-sized target at 25 feet within three seconds after the threat is perceived. Talk to somebody who can, and who knows you, and understand how much constant practice that takes. Willingness, legal issues, etc., are part of the equation, but nothing matters if you cannot shoot quickly and accurately. It is not as easy, under threat, as those who have not been under threat imagine.

plpenn

07-23-2011, 07:51 PM

I would go with a 44 mag.

echotron

07-23-2011, 07:57 PM

RE: Michigan Firearm Discharge/Fireworks in park: Save yourself from the bear first then worry about some law/regulation ... remember it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 !

MrMurphy

07-24-2011, 09:53 AM

Some years back Gunsite did a dangerous game class focused on bears.

Majority of those in the class worked for the state of Alaska or a variety of companies (oil, power, etc) who were out in the boonies a lot.

issued weapon of choice or picked weapon of choice was the 12ga pump with Brenneke slugs, backed up by or augmented by a good DA .44 magnum as that's about the biggest most can control in a hurry.

.45-70 Marlins were next in popularity and I think there was also a .375 bolt action, iron sighted in the mix.

From all i've ever heard from a lot of people i know who've spent years if not decades in the Alaskan wilds, 12ga/slugs or a .45-70 or .375 backed up by a .44/.45 Colt or .454 Casull would do well.

Acmemfg

07-24-2011, 10:04 AM

My choice for such situations....12 Ga. 3 1/2 chamber with a rifled slug or (preferably) a rifled barrel set up for sabot slugs. Painfully accurate up to 300 metres and enough knockdown power to remedy most situations. The Marlin .45-70 is a good option also, but I'll still take the Remington 870 12 Ga.

Doc4

07-28-2011, 12:28 PM

A lick of common sense, a spot of resourcefulness and a small measure of situational awareness are all you need.

Save yourself the weight and currency.

I had to read that twice ... though it said 'lack' at first. :crying:

jloneill17

07-28-2011, 07:42 PM

Mossberg 500 w/defensive loads and a Raging Bull 454 Casull :w00t:

Cover all your bases....

This is the best bet. 12gauge with either slugs or 00 buckshot, preferably slugs. And nothing smaller than a 44mg. A 454 Ruger Alaskan would be plenty.

Ozgun

07-29-2011, 12:28 AM

buy a .577 T-rex :behead:

Ron991

07-29-2011, 06:40 AM

A would prefer a rifle over a shotgun, and or a hand gun. Realistically I would want something that puts a-lot of hard hitting lead down range, and fast.

Blue Raccoon

07-29-2011, 06:47 AM

just always go with a fatter/slower guy than yourself and run for it!

MickRussell

07-29-2011, 06:51 AM

A would prefer a rifle over a shotgun, and or a hand gun. Realistically I would want something that puts a-lot of hard hitting lead down range, and fast.

Will this do?

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2200/2289.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.950_JDJ

Ozgun

07-29-2011, 08:01 AM

Believe me, these would do the job :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8DehAUimRA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q4zv2QGdos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BYnG4vrb-U&feature=related

"HOW IS THE SHITTING GOING?" ROFL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow6Rr0wNq2s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVqT3XEzss&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYOHFaVFp3o&feature=related

if the bears are too big you may try this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs9m5-k_vro&playnext=1&list=PL9C87A93A2E7FFD84

and this is may be a little bit overkill for bears :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUeqSseERo&feature=related

:clap::clap::clap:

rajagra

07-29-2011, 08:17 AM

Why hold back?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DRmuljq9yw

ScoutHikerDad

07-29-2011, 11:25 AM

Great videos, guys!

rupertbear

07-29-2011, 07:24 PM

As I understand it the biggest problem with bear is their skulls are incredibly thick - and penetrating the bone is difficult with pretty much anything but a high powered rifle.

If I couldn't avoid a confrontation I might also fire a warning shot to see if it spooks the bear and he runs. That would be ideal as far as I am concerned.

First, the skull. Bear skulls are not noticeably thicker than other large mammal skulls. The perceived problem is that bears attack on all fours, like a dog, and the angle is such that a projectile can bounce off the skull without penetrating it. Mostly, this is a bogus issue; if you are firing for the center of mass, which you ought to be doing, the skull is a long way off target. In my DLP (Alaska-speak for Defense of Life and Property) situation with a black bear, I was armed with a .30 Carbine; with such a pipsqueak caliber, my options were reduced to one, Kneel down and shoot him through the throat to reach the spine. It worked, but I sure wished I had something bigger.

As far as a warning shot goes, it depends entirely on the firearm. A 1987 study by the US Forest Service showed that warning shots weren't all that worthwhile. If you've got a semi, try it, but elsewise, put the first round where it'll do the most good.

ShaveJacket

07-30-2011, 01:35 PM

This thread got REALLY long, so I skipped much of it to add my two cents. Apologies if my thoughts are just a reiteration of anything someone else said.

I worked at REI for a while and have been an avid backpacker, though I've only had to deal with black bears since I do most of my adventuring the SE US. A big part of the equation is going to be what kind of bear you expect to come up against. We always had a joke:

Q: How can you tell the difference between grizzly scat and black bear scat?
A: The grizzly scat smells like pepper and has bells in it.

That being said, I encourage people to: 1) Follow best practices regarding food prep and storage during trips; 2) Do your best to make yourself known in bear country and avoid bears; 3) Use bear bangers where appropriate.

Bear bangers are basically a rocket with a very loud report and are usually contained in a small cartridge or fired from a pen-style launcher. Various version are available, including flares and whistles. The idea is to fire the banger so the report sounds just in front of the bear and between you, to scare the animal away. If you're walking any distance to camp, this is far easier than carrying a firearm. (We also usually recommend them because it is not as dangerous as carrying a firearm, but you sound pretty well versed in firearm safety, so that's not as much of an issue here.) Another big factor in that recommendation was that until Feb 2010, it was illegal to carry firearms onto National Park Service property; it remains illegal to discharge a firearm on park land. It wasn't clear whether you would be on Federal land, from what I'd read.

For me, if I ultimately had to choose between a handgun and a shotgun, I'd take the handgun. You'll be able to acquire your target more quickly and fire multiple rounds.

Regarding bulletproof bears, the only stories I've heard about being unable to take down a bear with a reasonably large weapon were about Kodiak bears.

The Count of Merkur Cristo

08-06-2011, 10:06 AM

"WEST GLACIER, Mont [August 6 2011 5:32:26 AM ET]. — Glacier National Park says a grizzly bear mauled a 50-year-old hiker but the man was able to walk for help [God was watching over him].

Spokeswoman Denise Germann says the St. Paul, Minn., man was hiking alone from Many Glacier to Piegan Pass around noon Friday when he encountered a mother grizzly with an older cub.

She says in a release that the animal attacked and bit the hiker on an arm, leg and foot and then shook him before leaving. The man had bear spray but couldn't use it in time.

Despite the wounds, the man walked until he met up with a ranger who called for help. The hiker was hospitalized in Browning, but his condition was not immediately available [and], his name was not released.

Germann says the trail from Piegan Pass to Feather Plum Falls has been closed as rangers investigate.

Park officials say cases of grizzly or black bears injuring people at Glacier occur less than once a year [but once is all it takes...to be dead or alive],".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44044112/ns/us_news/?gt1=43001

So much for using Bear Spray...if you can get to it. :a46:

That said, I wouldn't even think or dream or be 'caught dead' of entering any National or State Park or woods or fields or 'boonies' known to have bears without a firearm for defense. If I couldn't be armed and 'at the ready' http://www.htloz.net/forums/images/smilies/awesome/shotgun3.gif because of local, state or federal laws....you won't be seeing me there my friend.

Again, if I needed a weapon for Bear defense, my weapon of choice (and the Mrs. too [she was also in the Army]), would be my 'good ole trusty' (Army issue type), pump action, 8 round (+ one in the chamber), 12 gauge Mossberg M590 Shotgun. :thumbsup:

Christopherhttp://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Dragonwiz/clipart/ShotGun5.gif

Comet

09-06-2011, 03:09 AM

It was a joke. I loved it! TFT smile

Comet

09-06-2011, 03:11 AM

Just to be clear a Grizz and Black Bear are two different beasts. There are no Grizzly's in the east. The knock down power to put down a Black Bear is nothing compared with what is needed for Grizz.

JayM

09-06-2011, 04:58 AM

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, my choices are between a .357 as above or a 12 ga. "special purpose" pump like a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870.

Any advice/opinions are greatly appreciated.

If these are your only choices.... Take the 12 ga, with 3 inch magnum slugs/00 buck.

A 357 mag - is not enough gun for bear. Dick Casull - created the 454 casull in the late 60's to address the hunters need for a more powerful handgun than the 44 mag. There are many hunters who have been mauled after emptying their 44 mag in the bear. Consider a charging bear - what target you are presented with... A massivly thick skull plate and heavy bone of the shoulders and forearms. a 44 mag has a hard time getting enough power to penetrate the bone.

Ruger makes a short barrel 454 casull, try to pick one up - your wife may not be able to shoot this as the recoil is very strong.
I would suggest a 454 casull for your waist band, and a 12 ga for the tent/camp area. - Last resort kind of stuff...

The firecrackers work really well as a deturent...

thebikingengineer

09-06-2011, 04:35 PM

You're better off using a short barreled .308 or similar rifle on a bear. Shot placement is everything and bears have enough depth that you're going to have a hard time over-penetrating. It's all explained in this article. (http://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm)

Acmemfg

09-07-2011, 05:06 AM

.30-06...in the real world you really don't need another rifle for much of anything else, except perhaps for a .22 (so now what should I do with the .270, .30-30, and .223??):001_huh:

Clovis Man

09-07-2011, 11:21 AM

.30-06...in the real world you really don't need another rifle for much of anything else, except perhaps for a .22 (so now what should I do with the .270, .30-30, and .223??):001_huh:

My dad was a big Jack O'Conner fan -- so I grew up with .270's in the instead of .30-'06's. Therefore, keep the .270 instead of anything else!

Altair

09-07-2011, 11:34 AM

A good pair of tennis shoes might be a good backup to any weapon you chose unless you are proficient with it.

I was gonna say RUN too

JayM

09-07-2011, 12:24 PM

I was gonna say RUN too

You guys are not really serious are you?

bears can run near 35 MPH - that is 109 yards covered in 6 seconds...

I would prefer to watch the impact of my 1700 FPS 350grain 454 casull rip thru the bears head and heart instead of watching the bears teeth rip thru my flesh.

You go ahead and run - I will place 6 rounds into the beast and then reload and do it again, if needed

El Comanche

09-08-2011, 07:45 AM

there is a lot of talk about caliber here and not much about ammo and what is effective with bears. With the right ammo like Garrett or buffalo bore, a .44mag can out perform a .454 What you want is a super hard cast round, as heavy as possible with maximum penetration. BB makes a 180g hard cast for .357 that could possibly work as a minimum for black bear. Whether it's a black bear or Grizz, you gotta get though that thick skull or fur. If you don't get a head or spine shot, it will kill you before it dies. For that reason I don't recommend carrying a firearm unless you put the practice in. I do, and feel it is well worth the time and money for the protection it gives.

Also, please don't run from ANY bear, it will only trigger their chase reflex and you will not win the race . . .

JayM

09-08-2011, 08:26 AM

your right about the ammo - but I figured too much detail for this forum...

Your specs on the .44 mag are a little incorrect...
I am not trying to start anything here - just the facts on ammo and the energy expectations from it... please accept my applogies if I offend you.

I prefer to load my own and run the Hornady XTP (Rated for Magnum calibers) in 300grain with a Ballistic Coefficent of .180, and a sectional density of .210.
In 300 grain loaded to 1650 fps - produces 1813 ft-lbs of engergy at the muzzle.

Buffalo Bore's hottest 44 mag = Heavy .44 Magnum Ammo - 305 gr.L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,325fps/M.E.1,189 ft.lbs.)

About a 700 ft-lbs differnce - that is like the addition of 1.5 45 acp energy added to the 454 over the 44.

Even the exact same bullet from Buffalo in 454 = 454 Casull Ammo - 325 gr. L.B.T. -L.F.N. (1,525 fps/M.E. 1,678 ft. lbs.)
is still several hundred ft-lbs short in the energy department.

I hand load for both of these calibers - trying to get a 44mag to equal a 454 will most likely result in a blown up gun.

I do agree with you fully on - don't carry it if you don't practice shooting it.
Any hunting handgunner shoudl be able to put all 6 rounds in a standard paper plate at 25yards.

Again - sorry if I offended you - but handgunning is kind of my thing and I take the numbers seriously

El Comanche

09-09-2011, 03:37 AM

no offense taken. As I do not hand load, this is what I carry now: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html

JayM

09-09-2011, 04:58 AM

Wow - those rounds are really pushing the maximum CUP 43,500 is up there - I like their caution... Notice the wimpy Smith and Wesson is not recommended for these rounds...

Maximum CUP on the 454 is 53,800, and they must use small rifle primers instead of large pistol primers. the .223 max CUP is only 60,000.

If you shoot a lot of these - inspect your pistol regularly for stress - I have had a 44 Mag by Smith and Wesson explode on me - S&W ruled it "Metal Fatigue" (now I will not own a S&W)

Also a little know fact... Never shoot these heavy loads with empty cylinders - even if you just have empty shells in the other cylinders keep all the cylinders full - this reduces stresses during firing and recoil - save your pistol

Have you taken any game with these? how is penetration? How is bullet deformation? Some times the Ultra hard cast over penetrate and don't deform or expand well...

I still shoot 44 mag, and I down load them for my wife to have a nice pig pistol, how is the recoil?
A great low recoil round is Hodgen powder "Lil-Gun" about 29.5 grain and a 200 gn Hornady XTP - these run at 1794 FPS and 36,200 CUP muzzle energy is 1429

These penetrate well, but shoots should be keep to 50 yards or under as energy bleeds off fast at range

Sorry folks I kind of hijacked a few posts of this thread...

Slash McCoy

09-13-2011, 11:17 PM

A word about running away...

You don't have to be able to outrun the bear. As long as you can outrun your buddy.

jkingrph

09-20-2011, 03:57 PM

Get a combo, a revolver and rifle in the same caliber. In the pistol choose the longest barrel you can carry, if allowed. For the rifle, usually a lever action in these calibers, go for a shorter barrel.

In pistol calibers either .357mag or .44 mag, the rifles are a whole different game power wise compared to the pistol. Although I have both calibers for handguns, my 44 are much bigger and heavier and handle recoil better than the smaller more concealable .357. I do not have a rifle in .357, and only one in .44 mag, and it is a Marlin cowboy model, with 24" barrel and tang sights for long range accuracy. I think they have made them as short as 16 or 18 " which would be much handier, but I prefer long barrels. In the rifle the .44 will reach out 125-150 yards easily, and will handle heavier bullets that would give excessive recoil in the handgun.

Deacon Frank

09-21-2011, 12:59 AM

Some times the Ultra hard cast over penetrate and don't deform or expand well...

I still shoot 44 mag, and I down load them for my wife to have a nice pig pistol, how is the recoil?

If you're talking defense against bear or other large animals, you don't want expansion anyway. You want total penetration. I really like the Speer 270gr JFN, and Buffalo Bore makes an excellent load using this bullet.

One of the great things with 44mag is being able to step down to 44spl -- like shooting a .22 in a heavy revolver or carbine!

Ron991

09-21-2011, 09:16 AM

191775

In an earlier post #133 to be exact, I posted I wanted something that put a-lot of lead down range fast. I did so because in 1978 Ronnie M. Richie P. and myself were bow hunting Elk. in the Northwest Wyoming area near the Teton Wilderness. This was a five day hunt, and for lack of a better word we rented a Mule from a good ole boy who had a small cabin in that area. It cost us $30.00, and a fifth of Old Grandad for the "rental fee" Back packing was not a problem, as we could have easily done that, but if we made a kill it is hard to pole, and or for that matter to quarter an Elk, and hump it out with all our equipment. At any rate we came upon a clearing maybe 200 feet across, and rather than cross, and be in the open we walked the tree line around the clearing. Now out of no where we heard a tremendous roar, and about 25 feet or so ahead was indeed a huge Grizzly Bear. We frooze the mule was going crazy, but we managed to hang on to it. This Bear charged, and stood in front of us at about 15 feet or so. Ronnie, and Richie flanked me, and nocked an arrow. Well this Bear started to stomp on It's front legs 4, or five times. Once again it stood, and I discharged two rounds from the revolver you see above, and that Bear was dead on It's feet. Both rounds hit center mass, and exploded It;s heart. I don't remember what kind of loads I was using at that time being so long ago. This is not something that I was proud at having to do, but by the same token I did not want to tangle with that Grizzly Bear either. Now having said that I would much rather have had an M16, or an AK47.

Acmemfg

09-22-2011, 04:36 PM

Had you a .223 (5.56 mm) M 16 I don't think you would be around today to share your tale. The Model 29 is a much better choice.

Wildalaska

09-22-2011, 04:41 PM

Unless you can use your revolver to hit a softball tossed at you by Hoyt Wilhem at 45mph, get a 12g with buckshot

rupertbear

09-22-2011, 08:56 PM

Wildalaska

09-22-2011, 09:18 PM

Uhh, buckshot has no penetration. Little mass, small diameter = no penetration. Go with a slug. If you're using a pump gun, practice so that you rack the slide back so far that it slams into the stop; short stroking isn't something you want to do when the SHTF.

Buckshot doesnt have to penetrate, all it has to do is turn the charge. Thats per more than one Alaskan Guide. I know one Guide that uses a buckshot filled 10 gauge to get 'em in the thickets.

Ron991

09-23-2011, 03:21 PM

Had you a .223 (5.56 mm) M 16 I don't think you would be around today to share your tale. The Model 29 is a much better choice.

Knowing from experience that when presented with the perfect target of opportunity, which lucky for us that it did when it stood once again, you start at center mass, and work your way up to the face until the threat stops. This is rather hard to do with a .44 mag. I am a long time mag. shooter, in fact .357 mags have always been my favorite platform. When shooting Mags, you have to lock your wrist, and elbow to control muzzle flip, and recoil. Your whole arm will lift, but will drop down on target faster than just locking your wrist. With an M 16, and a 30 round magazine even on semi auto, and I am thinking about my old service days you can spit out rounds, and indeed start at center mass, and work your way up faster than with any Mag. that I have ever fired. IMHO

Gordy2

09-24-2011, 06:09 AM

I live in an area that has a lot of black bears. We have had them walking around the house staring into windows, getting into feeders, tipping over and getting into grills. Obviously the best weapon would be a rifle with good knock down power but when the bears are really visiting I have my .45 Glock handy in case one decides to break in. A bear's fur is usually so dense and their skin so tough a shotgun with pellets would not be too useful. A shotgun with slugs would be better if you would want that route. If you carried a pistol, it would have to be one with good knock down ability, such as the .45 and probably a .357.

echotron

09-24-2011, 06:14 AM

Both! Pump shotgun w/OO Buck and extended capacity & 357/41/44 Magnum/454?

Third item would be running shoes of course, so you can out run the people around you ... you can't outrun the bear! :devil:

(Depends® brand adult diapers makes after the attack clean up easier!) :lol1:

5 over

09-24-2011, 06:18 AM

If you're going to have to rely on a handgun, please go with a .44 mag. With it, you stand a chance; the .357, well it's iffy at best. You'll have one very loud round to put a shot in the ground ahead of the bear and 5 more for the bear itself if necessary. Just my .02 worth.

Gordy2

09-24-2011, 06:53 AM

I would prefer the large guns as I stated in my post but there are also made for bears pepper sprays that shoot far distances and bangers for bears that shoot some distance and produce extremely loud bangs to scare them off. Personally I don't want a dead bear, not fond of the meat, and have to explain to a warden why I shot it. In the eastern U.S. deadly attacks on people are rare and the bears can be scared off fairly easily. But, if one breaks into my house we will play by different rules.

DavyRay

10-01-2011, 04:30 PM

Just carry some whitebark pine nuts in your pocket. If a grizzly threatens you, toss the pine nuts and run.

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2011/02/bison-pine-nuts-trout-and-grizzlies-perfect-storm-yellowstone-national-parks-wildlife-managers7592

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_8a1c5794-ae15-11df-b401-001cc4c03286.html

joshua82

01-17-2012, 12:47 PM

You guys are not really serious are you?

bears can run near 35 MPH - that is 109 yards covered in 6 seconds...

I would prefer to watch the impact of my 1700 FPS 350grain 454 casull rip thru the bears head and heart instead of watching the bears teeth rip thru my flesh.

You go ahead and run - I will place 6 rounds into the beast and then reload and do it again, if needed

Are you serious, you'll put six rounds into a charging bear that can cover 109 yards in six seconds? Have you ever shot a 454? I have to assume you are joking.

noelekal

01-17-2012, 02:55 PM

Wow! A "bear thread" on a shaving forum! Who'd have thunk it?

A .44 Magnum is the most powerful revolver I own or have any desire to own. I'd rather not have to face shooting an attacking bear with any handgun. Any sort of compact rifle from .30-30 up would be a better choice as would a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs.

craigruhl

01-17-2012, 03:17 PM

When the bear takes the pistol away from him and shoves it up his butt, it won't hurt as bad.

Knew that one was coming. :biggrin1:

Slash McCoy

01-17-2012, 06:18 PM

Are you serious, you'll put six rounds into a charging bear that can cover 109 yards in six seconds? Have you ever shot a 454? I have to assume you are joking.

More than likely it will be impossible to put more than five rounds ANYWHERE without reloading. I may be mistaken but I don't think there are any six shot .454 Casulls. And me, I think I would rather take the extra second for a properly aimed shot, and hope that one is all that I need. Anything bigger than a .44 magnum will be pretty hard to manage quick follow-up shots, anyhow, so better try to make the first one count.

Since these hand cannons do NOT lend themselves to rapid fire, I figure if you are gonna go bigger than a .44, you may as well go for this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.500_S%26W_Magnum

A 440 grain bullet at over 1500 fps at the muzzle is a LOT of hitting power. Not much difference from a standard 12ga slug.
I'm just glad we don't have bears in New Orleans. This way I can talk the talk without having to walk the walk.

GladiusGSF

01-24-2012, 08:57 PM

garyg

01-25-2012, 09:04 AM

I'd go with the pepper spray...easier to handle than a firearm and probably won't get you into trouble in the anti gun paradise of Michigan. If you HAVE to get a gun, not that an excuse is needed, I'd go with a .44 Mag or the .454. Taurus makes a fine line of inexpensive revolvers in those calibers but be prepared, they are heavy. Remember you have to pack that weight around. Or if you are so inclined Marlin makes a fine .44 Mag lever gun that is crazy nice.

Just curious - by what measurement is Michigan considered "anti-gun"? It is a rhetorical question, of course, like the best bear defense in a state where the most recent fatal bear attack occurred when Harry Truman was President ..