Mosin Nagant score

[auk1124]

I love my wife. :001_tt1: Today she surprised me with a 1942 Izhevsk Model 91/30 Mosin Nagant. I have a few other Mosins in the gun room but this is my first Soviet wartime piece - and there is no mistaking that this rifle is a wartime piece! Lathe marks down the full length of the exterior of the barrel, a large stock repair, and a receiver that looks as if it was beaten out of a plowshare in about five minutes.

The whole rifle just screams "Oh my God the Germans are coming!" and it has a character that is somehow different from my other Mosins, even my Finns. I imagine some of the usable Last Ditch Arisakas have this same character. The unique looks of this one, plus it being a gift, make it special. I look forward to firing it as soon as I can get it cleaned up and out on a firing range.

[Aaron W.]

Nice score! All those marks make it unique.What caliber are they? I sold my russian sks a long time ago it was a great shooter.

[auk1124]

7.62x54r, a 30 caliber round with a bit more oomph than your SKS had. I don't expect super accuracy out of it - Mosins were basically intended to be minute-of-the-guy-trying-to-kill-you. :001_smile If it will stay on a paper target at a reasonable distance I'll be happy.

[DavyRay]

My only reservation with some of these old bolt-action rifles is the location of the locking lugs. I had a Mauser-action rifle which was quite frightening to fire. It had locking lugs at the rear of the bolt, (not at the chamber). It also cocked the firing pin on the closing stroke.

Watching the bolt jump as the piece was fired was an exercise in personal restraint.

It is really cool that your wife bought you such a museum piece. A relic of that epic battle on the Eastern Front is certainly thrilling.

[Groat]

This thread is useless without pictures! You describe the rifle, but I'd love to see it.

[Voomie]

I was thinking about using this rifle as an introduction to firearms as I learn about them. Does anyone else think this is a good choice?

[commanderkeen]

Don't you mean "Oh my god the Finns are coming!" Nice score, certainly not as good a gun as the Finns, but probably has a lot of that Russian spirit. I always have liked mossins, an offshoot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_Tkiv_85 is still used in the finnish army, using the old 1891 designed receiver.

[Rossmeister]

I love my wife. :001_tt1: Today she surprised me with a 1942 Izhevsk Model 91/30 Mosin Nagant. I have a few other Mosins in the gun room but this is my first Soviet wartime piece - and there is no mistaking that this rifle is a wartime piece! Lathe marks down the full length of the exterior of the barrel, a large stock repair, and a receiver that looks as if it was beaten out of a plowshare in about five minutes.

The whole rifle just screams "Oh my God the Germans are coming!" and it has a character that is somehow different from my other Mosins, even my Finns. I imagine some of the usable Last Ditch Arisakas have this same character. The unique looks of this one, plus it being a gift, make it special. I look forward to firing it as soon as I can get it cleaned up and out on a firing range.

Interesting weapon (AND the fact your wife got it for you!). Where do you live? I would be interested if you have other WWII-era rifles and if you could compare their performance in very cold weather?

[auk1124]

Sorry for the crappy pics, I am horrible with a camera. Anatomy of a Soviet Wartime rifle:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3595.jpg

Prewar and post war stocks had metal escutcheons to support the front and rear cutouts for the rifle sling. This step was skipped in the early years of the war for the rear sling cutout:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3596.jpg

The front sling cutout did not get a full escutcheon, but it did get a single piece of thin metal on the bottom of the cutout:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3597.jpg

The trapezoidal area in this pic is a stock repair, and it actually appears to be quite a good one:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3598.jpg

The pic sucks, but if you look closely you can perceive a difference in diameter between the very last few inches of the barrel and the rest. In real life this difference is very noticable - my guess is the Soviets were only concerned with milling down the first few inches of the barrel enough to slip a socket bayonet on the front, and then moving on to the next barrel.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3602.jpg

Another bad pic, but you can just barely make out shadows of some vertical striations in the barrel. In real life these lathe marks are so prominent that the entire barrel is rough to the touch, like a bastard file. These lathe marks extend the full length of the barrel.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3603.jpg

A bad pic of the receiver. The bumps and gouges aren't just a blurry photo - they are rough areas on the receiver itself, imperfections from the forge I guess.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3604.jpg

Another pic of the receiver. Again, those imperfections aren't dirt, they are gouges and bumps in the metal itself.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3606.jpg

The underside of the receiver tang. It is every bit as rough and gouged as it appears in this pic, with what looks like grinder marks all over it:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3605.jpg

Topside of the receiver tang. The uneven looking area has deep grind marks, where some laborer ground and gouged enough metal out to let the bolt operate:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/TLUpchurch/DSCF3607.jpg

I wish my camera skills were better but hopefully this conveys a little bit of just how desperately this rifle was thrown together.

[MaritimeFanatic]

You've got a good lady there. Nice addition to the collection as well. I have a 1942 Tula M91/30, and I have found it to be a very accurate rifle. How has yours turned out?

To the fellow asking about Mosins as a "starter rifle": if you are experienced with shooting and are looking for something basic to learn gun-smithing/other work, they would be great. If you have never had a rifle before, I would not recommend the M91/30. Kicks like a 'roid-raged mule as is loud as Thor's Hammer.

[bamafan64]

The stock repair is from where the stock was originally on a sniper rifle. It was cut out to allow for the scope mount. Sometime after the war, they decided they didn't need as many sniper rifles, so they converted many of them back to basic infantry rifles to sell to satellite countries or to arm their populace if they were invaded again. The imperfections in the steel was from fast wartime production. Earlier models were finished out a little nicer.

[litework]

I was thinking about using this rifle as an introduction to firearms as I learn about them. Does anyone else think this is a good choice?

I don't think it's the best choice. The safety on the Nagant is really different, though the trigger pull is heavy and long. I really don't care for the flimsy stripper clips on the Nagant and the caliber isn't popular. These aren't really obstacles and certainly would not keep you from enjoying the firearm. I love my Sako Nagant, but I don't really think it's a great gun to learn the basics. It's a unique firearm and a lot of its characteristics cannot be applied to other firearms.

I think a Swedish Mauser would be a better choice. It's a high quality gun, with a more traditional three position safety and available in a more commonly available round.

[BrianK]

It was accurate enough for sniper work. Of course the action was smoothed up to make it as smooth as butter, and who knows what else was done to it. But don't discount it's accuracy. The rifle is featured in the movie "Enemy at the Gates". Which is about a historic match between a 3rd Reich sniper Koenig (sp?) and the Russian Zaitzev (again sp?) at Stalingrad. It's worth a look for those who haven't seen it.

Carlos Hathcock can also attest to its use during the Vietnam War (if he was still with us). He was the sniper who put the bullet through the scope of the M/N that was drawing a bead on him. That was portrayed in the movie "Sniper?, but it was CH who did it and lived it.

That's a good woman you have there, and the rifle is a great addition to the collection.

Oh, I forgot (edit) the round is something like our .30/06, recoil included.

[orchestrion]

I know next to nothing about guns, but that looks like a nice Nugget. They have a lot of cool history behind them.

[Splat]

Very nice! I have three Izhevsks, two M44's and a 91/30. Two have war-time dates while one is a '46, if I remember right.

It's great fun to hand an M44 to someone who has never shot one before :laugh:

[SliceOfLife]

7.62x54r, a 30 caliber round with a bit more oomph than your SKS had. I don't expect super accuracy out of it - Mosins were basically intended to be minute-of-the-guy-trying-to-kill-you. :001_smile If it will stay on a paper target at a reasonable distance I'll be happy.

Seeing you mention Finns above, I'm surprised you forgot their Caveat.

Finns restocked (much heavier stocks) retuned and refitted nagants into some pretty wickedly accurate rifles. My M39 is a beast when I do take it to the range, especially considering that aim of the guy firing it.


The kick isn't too bad on a Nagant with 162gr ammo (and there is some surplus kicking around from eastern European countries, maybe Yugoslavia?)... Now with the 180-208gr stuff that is a lot more common, it can be pretty mighty. (Another thing that makes the Finn great, it's got a few extra pounds there, and really tames the heavier ammo).

7.62x54r may not be a popular round, but up until at least five years ago, it was extremely cheap to shoot if you didn't mind carrying a little Windex with you. I don't know exactly what .22r rounds cost, but I'd doubt I paid much more for the 2-3k of Milsurp 7.62x54r I picked up back in the day.


But yes, the stripper clips are total garbage. If you try to load 3x by stripper, odds are two will jam up. In the end loading by hand is almost always faster on average.



As for accuracy of the unmodified 91/30's. I have five. Two are pretty good shooters. The rest are pretty bad. I believe only one or two are rebores, but all have good boring. The best can group 6 shots in about 3" diameter at 100 meters if I'm positioned well on a bench. The worst, make it 4" at 50 meters. Now my 44? It is lucky if it hits paper at 50meters. That thing is the biggest hunk of garbage I've ever held. I'm surprised it didn't blow up when I fired it.

[Hansel]

That's a nice rifle you've got there! I've got a 1943 91/30 with similarly rough machining. The good news is that even though the machine work looks like crap, it doesn't seem to have any effects on the rifle other than the appearance. Just stick to shooting "Light Ball" ammo and you'll be good to go...The "Heavy Ball" is apparently machine gun ammunition.


For any readers who have a Mosin or a similar rifle, and shoot surplus ammunition:
Essentially ALL Combloc (Russia, Poland, Czech, Yugoslav, Serbian, East German, Hungarian, Chinese, Romanian, etc) surplus ammunition has corrosive primers. Anybody who's selling it and claims the ammunition is non-corrosive, slightly corrosive or mildly corrosive (No such thing, ammo either is or is not corrosive, there is NO middle ground!), is either ill informed, or full of BS.
If you shoot this, you MUST clean the rifle IMMEDIATELY after shooting, and clean using something that can remove the corrosive salts. The ONLY way I know of to be 100% sure that you've dissolved and removed the corrosive salts from the rifle (All areas that the gases from the fired rounds touch should be cleaned) is to use a solution of about 1/3rd of a teaspoon of liquid dish soap and 2-4 cups of HOT water. Swab the barrel down with this solution, and use tons of it, get the insides of the rifle good and wet, focusing most of your attention on the barrel and bolt face.

When you're done with that, pass the brush through the barrel a dozen times, and use patches to dry the water off. At this point, if you choose, you can use some acetone on patches (Don't get it on plastic, wood, or painted surfaces! It melts most plastic and paint! Your cleaning rod's plastic tips ARE usually resistant to acetone though.) to completely rid the gun of water, acetone helps evaporate water pretty quick. Otherwise, wait maybe 10-15 minutes for the rest to evaporate, and then oil the rifle heavily and you're good to go. Before shooting, wipe away excess oil, and run a dry patch down the bore.

Another poster here mentioned Windex. Windex accomplishes essentially the same thing, and you can use it in the same way. Just be warned that windex contains ammonia, and this has some corrosive properties of it's own, so I can't recommend it. If you do use it, don't let it sit for very long, and use a little plain hot water to be sure you've removed it all when you clean. You'll probably be AOK.

Sorry for the long rant on cleaning corrosive ammo, but I feel like I have to do it. When I was back in highschool, almost 10 years ago now, I got a brand new M48 Mauser (A post WW2 Yugoslavian made Kar-98 copy) for my birthday. One of my friends got an identical rifle a month later. Over the 10 years I've had it, I must have put something like 7000 rounds of ammo through it, and every single round was corrosive surplus ammo. My buddy put maybe 2000 rounds of the same stuff through his rifle, but never used anything more than regular powder solvent and oil...

His rifle is rusted out and unusable now, and mine still look practically brand new...


The stock repair is from where the stock was originally on a sniper rifle. It was cut out to allow for the scope mount. Sometime after the war, they decided they didn't need as many sniper rifles, so they converted many of them back to basic infantry rifles to sell to satellite countries or to arm their populace if they were invaded again. The imperfections in the steel was from fast wartime production. Earlier models were finished out a little nicer.

Good point, IF the receiver has a few weld marks on it to cover up the old screw holes. Otherwise it's probably just a repair. My 1943 ex-sniper hasn't got a stock repair, so I don't know if it was re-stocked or if the mounts didn't require it.



As for accuracy of the unmodified 91/30's. I have five. Two are pretty good shooters. The rest are pretty bad. I believe only one or two are rebores, but all have good boring. The best can group 6 shots in about 3" diameter at 100 meters if I'm positioned well on a bench. The worst, make it 4" at 50 meters. Now my 44? It is lucky if it hits paper at 50meters. That thing is the biggest hunk of garbage I've ever held. I'm surprised it didn't blow up when I fired it.

I've never run across a 91/30, or any Finnish Mosin, with "bad" accuracy. 5 shots in ~3" seems to be par for the course with Mosins, better for the Finn ones I've had the chance to shoot, and the ammo you're shooting seems to make a difference. That said...I've shot three M44 carbines, and one M38 carbine, and each and every one of them was WILDLY inaccurate at 50 yards...One of them was so bad that we fired 5 rounds at a piece of paper from 50 yards and had only a single hole in it. We then went on to put 5 shots from my Mauser into about a 2" area from the same distance, so it was NOT the shooter's fault!

[bamafan64]

Good point, IF the receiver has a few weld marks on it to cover up the old screw holes. Otherwise it's probably just a repair. My 1943 ex-sniper hasn't got a stock repair, so I don't know if it was re-stocked or if the mounts didn't require it.

Most likely restocked. I've got one rifle that has the ex-sniper stock but the rifle itself wasn't, and another that is the exact opposite. Some of these rifles will have matching serial numbers, but many of the stocks will also have four x's stamped into them. Some Soviet arsenals would stamp x's over the old serial number, then force match the new receiver's number onto it.

[auk1124]

The butt plate serial number matches the receiver with no overstrikes or x-outs, and there are no signs of any scope mounting on the receiver itself. While an ex-sniper stock or whole rifle would have been cool, I think the stock repair is just an ordinary one.

I haven't cleaned or slugged the barrel yet but will try to get around to it some time soon. Given the haste in manufacture I wouldn't be surprised if the barrel is just a tad bit overbore. :001_smile I did check for counterboring, and none present.

[bdev]

Wow....it's been years since I collected MN's but when they first started being imported to the USA, I used to get 3 for $100.00.

I remember going to Sarco in NJ and picking through their stock. Since I held a Fed C&R, they used to ship them directly to me in NYS.

At one time I must have had at least 60 of them.

At the time, no one selling them really cared about the markings so Finn rifles were mixed in and I sometimes scored some rare rifles.

Those days are gone, probably forever.