Blade Comparisons, Please: Merkur, Feather, Derby, Other

[dadwasright]

I did not take Dad's advice on this (that's right, Dadwasright refers to my Dad, not me). He's been right about the badger brush all these years, though he never said anything to me! But when I discussed the famous Corey Greenberg article, he advised me to stay away from the DE razor. Way too dangerous.:eek:

Which I did for several weeks, and then caved into peer pressure from this board and others:wink:, only to discover the best shave of my life 4 days into my Merkur Long Handle:thumbup1: .

So, the next question is blades. I am using the Merkur blades and having great success. I read that the Feathers are not for beginners, for example. How do other blades compare with the Merkur?

With the Merkur, I have no irritation, my face is soft as a baby's behind, and with great care I have avoided casualties to date but recognize that I am bound to get overconfident and careless at some point. Anyway, I did some searching in this site and can't get a clear picture of the comparison between blades.

I recognize that "YMMV", but for those of you who have tried multiple blades, what are your comparative reviews?

[rtaylor61]

The "Swedish" Gillettes (http://www.auravita.com/products/AURA/GILL12120.asp) are the smoothest I have ever used. Followed by the Merkur blades, but I prefer the Gillettes.

Randy

[Kyle]

dadwasright,

Ease of adaptation into one's shaving style, skin & beard type, and cost are just a few of the factors that play in when picking a favorite blade. Every gentleman on this board can likely give you a varied answer to this question.

As it stands, you have found a blade that you are currently enjoying success with, and that is fantastic. My advice would be to stick with the Merkur's for a few months, until your technique has started to become somewhat polished. At this point you can begin to experiment with different blades and know that if bad results occur, it is not a product of bad technique but of a blade that disagrees with you.

If you are dead set on making a blade purchase NOW, then I can personally recommend the Derby blades (check this review to read about them (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1726)). Also, as stated by Randy, there are many folks who enjoy the Swedish Gillette's.
http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style3,Wet-spc-Shaving.png (http://www.sloganizer.net/en/)

[HlSheppard]

Well, as you've no doubt heard countless times:

Feather Platinums are the sharpest damned things available. You could basically split atoms with them. They are nice, but fairly unforgiving. If your're after the ultimate in baby-smoothness, and your technique is up for it... these are a good pick. I can actually shave closer with a Slant Bar w/ Feather than I ever could with a straight.

Merkur Stainless blades are a nice "mix" for me. Not so incredibly sharp that I'll nick myself, but not so baby smooth, either. Also (compared to Feathers), I feel some pulling/actual cutting of the whisker. Not that it's BAD r uncomfortable, it's just a difference. Many folks actually like this feeling as it lets them know when they're at the proper angle! At first, I was not a fan of Merkurs, but now I see them as a very nice "all around" blade.

Swedish Gillettes are probably my "go-to" blade these days. I still mix-and-match depending on the razor used, etc. But these blades are just a touch sharper than the Merkurs and still smooth and less aggressive than the Feathers. I can (and do) shave with a Merkur Progess opened up all the way with a Swedish Gillette blade and a good soap. I end up with a wonderfully smooth face and no nicks. Granted, if you're careless, you can cut yourself with a piece of loose-leaf paper... But with little pressure and a smooth stroke; you'll be rewarded with a good shave.

I've tried both Astra blades and the U.S. made Gillettes, as well as Personnas. To me, and my face, they all seemed fairly similar and truly dull in comparison to the three blades listed above. Granted, they're pretty forgiving - but for me, the smoothness just wasn't there (without 8 passes or more!). Wilkinson Swords would be smack dab in the middle of this group as well. Not to offend anyone who enjoys these, but I mostly refer the the blades in this paragraph as "second-tier."

I have not tried Derby blades.

Hope this helps.

[htownmmm]

The Israeli Blades for me have been nirvana.

The store brands( wilkinson,personnas, and various clones) just don't cut it-pun intended.





Marty

[rtaylor61]

I answered the "What I started with" part of this thread, but failed to post my "recommendation" for a starter kit:

Merkur HD Classic (http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/522941/284057.htm)
Crabtree & Evelyn (http://store.crabtree-evelyn.com/acc130147.html) Best Badger brush by Edwin Jagger
Taylor of Old Bond Street Shaving Cream (http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/522960/1165231.htm): You pick the flavor!
Proraso Pre/Post Shave Cream (http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/522960/381280.htm)

Need to cut a corner? Drop the Taylor's for Proraso Shaving Soap.

Randy

[SSLStudio]

Blades in my short wetshaving career I started out with the Israeli''s Platinum from ebay good price and decent sharp blade first 2 shaves pretty good results no nicks. then my Derby's arrived they simply feel amazing sharp compared to Israeli's I had a good shave, the next shave yes some nicks they are sharp for a newbie or careless speed I'd pressume for me.

Then my Gillettes arrived I think they are less sharp then the Israeli's so with my new aquired Gillette Superspeed I could almost go as fast as with a Mach3 razor I had no nicks and a decent shave not baby butt Im affraid these are NOT the Swedish Gillette's Im using perhaps US Gillette's ? anyone here can vouch for them ? these are the blades...

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5676715767&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

Then my Lord blades arrived (sample 30 pieces) and I havent tried them so I cant advice yet I
think they will be inbetween a Derby and Israeli but thats just guessing LORD used to be the people that are behind Wilkinsons. at the moment these are the cheapest around at ebay for around the price of 100 Derby's you get 200 Lord's.

good luck your on the right path

-Rene

[guenron]

Blades in my short wetshaving career I started out with the Israeli''s Platinum from ebay good price and decent sharp blade first 2 shaves pretty good results no nicks. then my Derby's arrived they simply feel amazing sharp compared to Israeli's I had a good shave, the next shave yes some nicks they are sharp for a newbie or careless speed I'd pressume for me.

Then my Gillettes arrived I think they are less sharp then the Israeli's so with my new aquired Gillette Superspeed I could almost go as fast as with a Mach3 razor I had no nicks and a decent shave not baby butt Im affraid these are NOT the Swedish Gillette's Im using perhaps US Gillette's ? anyone here can vouch for them ? these are the blades...

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5676715767&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

Then my Lord blades arrived (sample 30 pieces) and I havent tried them so I cant advice yet I
think they will be inbetween a Derby and Israeli but thats just guessing LORD used to be the people that are behind Wilkinsons. at the moment these are the cheapest around at ebay for around the price of 100 Derby's you get 200 Lord's.

good luck your on the right path

-Rene
De bladen in het beeld zijn Russische baldes.

[Brett G]

This is how I look at blades;

There are two basic ways that a shaver can irritate himself, with nicks and cuts that are usually caused by excessive pulling and draging, or with abrasion that comes from scraping away excessive amounts of skin. A sharper blade will cut easily with minimal drag but with increased risk of abrasion, particularly when trying to get skin close such as you would on the final pass. A blade with less sharpness will experience more drag on the longer hairs but will finish smoother and be less likely to abrade. Keep in mind that this only takes the blade into account and not other factors such as products used or razor technique

With that said, here is how I rank the most commonly used DE blades;

Feather: Without question the sharpest blade available. It will laser through the toughest beard like it isn't even there. On the other hand they can be very difficult to finish with. Though some gents love them, many (including myself) can't use them without significant abrasion.

Euro Gillette: Not a sharp as the Feather but very sharp nevertheless. Doesn't require quite the deft touch or tough skin that a Feather needs. A very popular blade with experienced shavers who like the lack of friction on the first couple of passes but appreciate the relative smoothness it offers at the finish.

Israeli Personna: A very well balanced blade. Not as sharp as some but makes up for it with a nice finish. I would probably pick this as my favorite all-around blade, especially given the price.

American Personna (common drugstore blade): Sharper than the Israeli version yet doesn't finish as smoothly as the Euro Gillette does. Seems to be a hint of harshness. Though they are not among my favorites, many gents like this blade because it is cheap and locally available.

Merkur: These blades are considered the gold standard in wet shaving. They strike a nice balance as they can handle heavy hair OK and will do a decent finish as well. Similar to the Israeli blades which I think are just a hair better, especially given their value.

Derby: The opposite of the Feather blade IMO. These things pull and drag like crazy on the first couple of passes but are the smoothest finishers I have ever used. Because they are relatively un-sharp, you can really muscle them down to skin level. An outstanding choice for gents with lighter beards or for guys who have trouble banging themselves up on the final pass.

There are a couple of other blades that I have tried such as Wilkinson, Schick, and American Gillettes. The Wilkinsons and Schicks are good blades and are comparable to Merkurs. The American Gillettes are complete garbage. They cut OK but have a harshness to them that is flat-out unpleasant. I also have a five pack of Zorrick blades but haven't tried them yet.

I will qualify all of this by saying that I do things a little differently than most wet shavers. I normally use two razors for each shave, one loaded with a Euro Gillette blade for the first two passes and one loaded with a Derby for the finish (I will also use a Merkur or Israeli from time to time.) that way I get the best of all worlds. Although if I was forced to use only one razor/blade it would be the Israeli because I think it strikes the best balance.

I did not include any opinion on how long each blade lasts because I do not know. Since I use two blades per shave I want to keep them on the front-end of their usability curve. I replace both after three shaves whether they need to be or not. That said, many gents find they get the best shaves after a blade has been used a couple of times, particularly with the sharper blades like Feather and Euro Gillette. This is because they are still sharp enough to avoid friction but they have lost enough of their edge to produce a smoother finish. Although I am quick to replace blades, IMO double-edge blades are cheap enough and plentiful enough that it is penny-wise and pound foolish to stretch a blade beyond a week.

[PoshRichM]

I can't add too much, other than to say that I've obviously calibrated myself to the characteristics of Merkur blades, because I had my first-ever Feather shave this morning, and the operative word is: ouch. Feathers will teach you the weaknesses in your blade technique. Not too many nicks or spots of irritation, considering, but my whole face felt for an hour or more like one more pass would have drawn blood. Very tender.

-Rich

[SSLStudio]

De bladen in het beeld zijn Russische baldes.
What the F.... Russian blades ? it shouldnt get anymore freakier...

Ron you wrote in Dutch ! can I have the twighlightzone tune going...thats
freaky aswell !

[SSLStudio]

Hi Brett,

interesting statements you claim, Ok I got the russian blades apparently so will need to try the Swedish Gillettes everyone raves about.

Your approach to using two razors I very much like because im beginning to understand wetshaving a bit better and the finishing up routing why not use a different blade that makes a lot of sense. like a painter will use different brushes to get a different result.

Feather I havent tried Id like to use them for the final pass, then again you claim the Derby's are better for that. to me the Derby's felt sharper then the Israeli's blades and the Derby''s nicked me the most so in your book scraped me the most.
Israeli Personna are those you got off ebay ? they are called Israeli Platinums are we talking about the same personna's ?

I got a free personna blade with my superspeed razor the blade feels and looks thick and heavy... like two blades glued on top of eachother.

replacing them after 3 shaves is quite bold !

[Brett G]

Rene,
The golden rule here is YMMV (your mileage may vary.) My comments about each blade represent my interpretation and not everyone may agree. That said, it needs to be understood that blades do not perform in a vacuum. There are other factors to consider such as the products used, the type of razor, and overall blade technique. All of these things (and several others) factor into how good the shave is. Being quite experienced, I think I have a pretty good feel for how each blade performs independent of other factors. Gents with less experience may interpret other variables as blade related.

I believe that my take on irritation is accurate but may not be experienced exactly the same by every man. Generally speaking, nicks and cuts are caused by not enough cutting power (be it blade related or whatever) and abrasion (aka razor burn) is caused by too much cutting power. If I understand you correctly and the Derbys nick you up, then that would be consistent with my opinion of them. Feathers, on the other hand, probably won't nick you but they may make your skin burn (abrasion.)

Yes, the Israeli Personnas are the blades that are available on Ebay.

Give the two razor shave a try. You may find it improves your results. It certainly does mine. Once I reached a point where I knew my own skin and beard, knew what products I liked, knew what razors I was comfortable with, and knew that my technique was rock-solid, I knew the only real problems come from using blades that are past their prime. Shaving is too important so I never give them that chance. Three shaves and out the door they go.

[guenron]

What the F.... Russian blades ? it shouldnt get anymore freakier...

Ron you wrote in Dutch ! can I have the twighlightzone tune going...thats
freaky aswell !
There was a Dutch commentary on that web page, so.... As we used to say, "There are two kinds of people in this w(ar)orld, the quick and the dead." And I'm slowing down...:Yawn: :wink1:

[zacharydz]

There was a Dutch commentary on that web page, so.... As we used to say, "There are two kinds of people in this w(ar)orld, the quick and the dead." And I'm slowing down...:Yawn: :wink1:

Ik kan Nederlands lezen, omdat ik het Duits spreek. Vele mensen begrijpen de Nederlandse taal (ich weiß nicht ob ich das furchtbar geschrieben habe...ich mischte ein bißchen Hochdeutsch und Plattdüütsch, und hoffte, das es noch verständlich ist.:confused: )

[guenron]

Ik kan Nederlands lezen, omdat ik het Duits spreek. Vele mensen begrijpen de Nederlandse taal (ich weiß nicht ob ich das furchtbar geschrieben habe...ich mischte ein bißchen Hoch Deutsch und Platdüütsch, und hoffte, das es noch verständlich ist.:confused: )
ich wisse nicht ob ich das furchtbar geschrieben habe
Platdeutsch

'Wiederschreiben..

[zacharydz]

ich wisse nicht ob ich das furchtbar geschrieben habe
Platdeutsch

'Wiederschreiben..

Ich vergaß ein T - "plattdüütsch" oder "platdütsk". Ich bringe Dinge durcheinander wenn ich versuche zu sprechen Dialekte, die ich nicht gut kenne. Ich vermutte das ich nur mit Hochdeutsch sprechen sollte (oder ein bißschen Berlinerisch):lol:

mais les langues étrangères sont très amusants:biggrin:

[Kyle]

This is how I look at blades;

There are two basic ways that a shaver can irritate himself, with nicks and cuts that are usually caused by excessive pulling and draging, or with abrasion that comes from scraping away excessive amounts of skin. A sharper blade will cut easily with minimal drag but with increased risk of abrasion, particularly when trying to get skin close such as you would on the final pass. A blade with less sharpness will experience more drag on the longer hairs but will finish smoother and be less likely to abrade. Keep in mind that this only takes the blade into account and not other factors such as products used or razor technique

With that said, here is how I rank the most commonly used DE blades;

Feather: Without question the sharpest blade available. It will laser through the toughest beard like it isn't even there. On the other hand they can be very difficult to finish with. Though some gents love them, many (including myself) can't use them without significant abrasion.

Derby: The opposite of the Feather blade IMO. These things pull and drag like crazy on the first couple of passes but are the smoothest finishers I have ever used. Because they are relatively un-sharp, you can really muscle them down to skin level. An outstanding choice for gents with lighter beards or for guys who have trouble banging themselves up on the final pass.

Very interesting points, Brett, and I agree wholeheartedly with your description of what to expect from blades of varying sharpness. Surprisingly enough, however, based on these "symptoms", the results I get from Feather's and Derby's are nearly opposite of yours.

Strange how a blade can treat each man's face a little differently.
http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style3,Wet-spc-Shaving.png (http://www.sloganizer.net/en/)

[SSLStudio]

Ach so Die Ron :biggrin:

Ich habe nochmals versucht zu gucken am website aber konnte gar nichts finden uber Russian blades. Sollte man denken ich brauche eine neue bril

hoffe das es zu verstehen ist den meine deutsch unterrichtung war schon 13 jahre vorher och och..bin ich schon ein alter ? :mad3:

Meine Lehrer war eine echte Deutscher , und ich hatte die Berliner Mauer besucht im Januar dieses Jahres wirklich eine enge platz zu sein..da wird man still von....

[guenron]

Ach so Die Ron :biggrin:

Ich habe nochmals versucht zu gucken am website aber konnte gar nichts finden uber Russian blades. Sollte man denken ich brauche eine neue bril

hoffe das es zu verstehen ist den meine deutsch unterrichtung war schon 13 jahre vorher och och..bin ich schon ein alter ? :mad3:

Meine Lehrer war eine echte Deutscher , und ich hatte die Berliner Mauer besucht im Januar dieses Jahres wirklich eine enge platz zu sein..da wird man still von....
Die Russicher balden heisst "Ruby Gillettes" in die mündlich von web.:001_rolle

[Jim Whiting]

After learning w/ Merkur DE blades, I took the plunge and purchased some Feathers. Using a GENTLE 3 pass system now-north/south, followed by oblique, followed by south/north, my face is like glass (Actually, I think glass is rougher).
Cheers!
Jim

[javyn]

I have used Merkur, Derby, Gillette Platinum, Swedish Gillette, Israeli Personnas; and this week popped in a Feather for the first time.

To me, the Swedish Gillettes, Derbies, and Feathers are the sharpest; in that order. I was intimidated by the Feather yesterday, trying it for the first time, so I dialed it down and shaved with a setting of 3 and lower on my Gillette HD. It was ok, but not very close. So today I used the settings that I'd use for any other razor blade and wow....totally smooth shave. I was fascinated with the huge amount of stubble I was seeing while rinsing off the blade, after doing the lightest passes on my neck.

I think Kyle's review for the Derby blades was right on 100%. I don't know if it is because those were the brand I started out with back in October, or what, but I think they are both sharper and smoother than the Swedish Gillettes. Not that there is that much of a difference between them to me really. I tend to nick myself a little with the Swedes though, not so with the Derby.

I think the Merkurs are nice, but I do feel them cutting the hairs and sometimes drag a little. This is especially true for me with the Israeli blades, too. I used them in my non-adjustable 1904 razor and really burned myself from having to make so many aggressive passes, and still had stubble left over. I am going to save those blades for my Futur, where I can really crank up the setting on them.


In my 5 or so months of experience with all this, "sharper" has been synonymous with "smoother". If I nick myself, it is because of a duller blade. So in a nutshell, I like Derby, and now, Feather.

[enlightenment]

I too find that "Sharper is Smoother." That's why i use feathers in my vision. It's like they say in the kitchen; "A sharper knife is a safer knife." For me, i find that i have to over work the swedish gillettes to get a smooth shave, which in turn leads to irritation. I have been so happy with the shaves the feathers give that i went to cottonblossom and bought the 10 pack deal.

[DoubleE]

I too find that "Sharper is Smoother." That's why i use feathers in my vision. It's like they say in the kitchen; "A sharper knife is a safer knife." For me, i find that i have to over work the swedish gillettes to get a smooth shave, which in turn leads to irritation. I have been so happy with the shaves the feathers give that i went to cottonblossom and bought the 10 pack deal.

Agreed. There's no contest as to which razor/blade combination gives me the closest and most effortless shave: Vision/Feather. While I can get good shaves with others, it tends to take more work. That said, it always feels like I'm living on the ragged edge when shaving with the Vision/Feather combination. I can zip the others around without too much fear of pain but I must concentrate when I use the V/F. If I could only keep one razor and one blade........well, except for that under the nose thing.

[Wet]

The "Swedish" Gillettes (http://www.auravita.com/products/AURA/GILL12120.asp) are the smoothest I have ever used. Followed by the Merkur blades, but I prefer the Gillettes.

Randy

I agree.

Wet

[Elgar]

I have experience with American Personna, Feather, Merkur and now Derby. I don't know if I agree that the smoothest equals the sharpest (smoothest here meaning smoothest feeling whilst shaving, not smoothest results). For me, the smoothest shaver seems to be the Merkur, but it tends to pull and drag; Feathers are the sharpest, but tend to give me weepers everywhere before I know what happened; Personnas don't pull and drag, but give me uneven results and require extra attention in certain spots; and the Derby blades fit my shaving style the best of all. They seem to be plenty sharp and plenty smooth. Haven't tried Swedish Gillettes, Wilkinson Sword or Israeli Personnas. That's next week. :wink2:

BTW, maybe I've missed this somewhere, but anyone know where these Derby Extra blades are manufactured?

-Ken

[guenron]

Howdy Ken,
From reading the package it appears to be Turkey. Then again.. I hope I can agree with your assessment.. I just bought 500...
I am absolutely astonished by those extolling the Euro (Swedish?) Gillettes. Nowhere nearly as sharp as the Feather, nor not nearly as smooth as the Merkur. When shaving with them, I find myself getting a 5 o'clock shadow at 5 o'clock.

[Elgar]

Howdy Ken,
From reading the package it appears to be Turkey. Then again.. I hope I can agree with your assessment.. I just bought 500...
I am absolutely astonished by those extolling the Euro (Swedish?) Gillettes. Nowhere nearly as sharp as the Feather, nor not nearly as smooth as the Merkur. When shaving with them, I find myself getting a 5 o'clock shadow at 5 o'clock.

Ron,

They do appear to be Turkish. I see that in Turkey, a blister pack of 5 Derby Extra blades will set you back 2,300,000 TL. 2.3 million of anything sounds a bit pricy - I certainly hope their currency isn't at parity with the dollar. That would account for the inordinate number of beards (as depicted in my meerschaum pipes).

500? You must shave more often or in more places than I can imagine. :w00t:

-Ken

[guenron]

Ron,

They do appear to be Turkish. I see that in Turkey, a blister pack of 5 Derby Extra blades will set you back 2,300,000 TL. 2.3 million of anything sounds a bit pricy - I certainly hope their currency isn't at parity with the dollar. That would account for the inordinate number of beards (as depicted in my meerschaum pipes).

500? You must shave more often or in more places than I can imagine. :w00t:

-Ken
Hi Ken,
FYI from Wikipedia:

On January 1, 2005 a new currency, the Yeni Türk Lirası (YTL, ISO 4217: TRY), was introduced to Turkey. The currency was revalued and is worth one million of the old lira. The new lira is divided into 100 new kurus, and is issued in denominations of 1, 5, 10, 20, 50 and 100 YTL notes, and 1, 5, 10, 25, 50 kurus and 1 YTL coins.
So what you are seeing is about $1.73..
Man, you had me thinking I could retire on my razor blade buy!:lol:

[Pilot]

I'm perplexed by the Swedes - I'm on my 4th shave and I've got to really watch my technique as I've got some burn going on. I can't say they've provided me a great experience with my Merkur Progress yet. I'm awaiting a 40's SS to arrive and will try with it. I've only tried Merkur to date and have only been DE shaving for like 6 weeks - so hardly the expert yet.

[guenron]

I'm perplexed by the Swedes - I'm on my 4th shave and I've got to really watch my technique as I've got some burn going on. I can't say they've provided me a great experience with my Merkur Progress yet. I'm awaiting a 40's SS to arrive and will try with it. I've only tried Merkur to date and have only been DE shaving for like 6 weeks - so hardly the expert yet.
Greetings Pilot! (I assume you have a name aside from a vocation?) Expertise is not really necessary here. You have ventured into the area of personal preference, variety of equipment, and hutzpah! The mis-issue of Mr. & Mrs. Greenberg's chance union is proof positive that expertise doesn't count. If you don't mind my asking, how open do you have your Progress and what soap or cream do you use?

[Elgar]

I got really curious about the blades in this thread and what made them so different when they looked so similar. I ventured into the attic this evening and found the old dissection scope I used to use for Roman numismatics. It tops out at only 30X magnification, but I could easily note a number of interesting differences in the edges of the blades and how they must have been made. I've been searching the internet on a comprehensive guide to the processes involved in making blades and the terms used in "blade anatomy" without too much luck. I'd like to know a little more about what I'm seeing.

I wish I could photograph what the stereomicroscope is showing and post the results. We have an image scanner at work with a very high native resolution, so I'm thinking about "scanning" the blades at full resolution and seeing what I can come up with. I'm also sniffing around for a good micrometer I can borrow from someone at work to compare the thicknesses.

Is anyone interested in this?

-Ken

[Scotto]

I got really curious about the blades in this thread and what made them so different when they looked so similar. I ventured into the attic this evening and found the old dissection scope I used to use for Roman numismatics. It tops out at only 30X magnification, but I could easily note a number of interesting differences in the edges of the blades and how they must have been made. I've been searching the internet on a comprehensive guide to the processes involved in making blades and the terms used in "blade anatomy" without too much luck. I'd like to know a little more about what I'm seeing.

I wish I could photograph what the stereomicroscope is showing and post the results. We have an image scanner at work with a very high native resolution, so I'm thinking about "scanning" the blades at full resolution and seeing what I can come up with. I'm also sniffing around for a good micrometer I can borrow from someone at work to compare the thicknesses.

Is anyone interested in this?

-Ken

Heck yeah!

[Kyle]

Definitely! I think this could be a very cool/informative thread.

[guenron]

I got really curious about the blades in this thread and what made them so different when they looked so similar. I ventured into the attic this evening and found the old dissection scope I used to use for Roman numismatics. It tops out at only 30X magnification, but I could easily note a number of interesting differences in the edges of the blades and how they must have been made. I've been searching the internet on a comprehensive guide to the processes involved in making blades and the terms used in "blade anatomy" without too much luck. I'd like to know a little more about what I'm seeing.

I wish I could photograph what the stereomicroscope is showing and post the results. We have an image scanner at work with a very high native resolution, so I'm thinking about "scanning" the blades at full resolution and seeing what I can come up with. I'm also sniffing around for a good micrometer I can borrow from someone at work to compare the thicknesses.

Is anyone interested in this?

-Ken
Great stuff Ken. Somewhere in the tomes of B&B is a link to an article dealing with the product R&D done by Gillette. The technology is incredible and really sounds like an abstract from Buck Rodgers. (You know who he is/was?) Carbon like diamond, one or two atoms thick, low grav vapor deposition techniques for platinum coating. Man, this is great stuff.

[Elgar]

This is by no means scientific, but here is a bit of information I've gathered on some of the different blades discussed in this thread.

I found the following in a Pakistani magazine written in English. Apparently, the DE razor is still the standard for shaving in Pakistan:

"...the modern type of disposable safety razor blade did not appear until 1901, when a Wisconsin travelling salesman, King Camp Gillette, and an engineer, William Nickerson, were granted a patent.

A razor blade starts its life as a continuous coil of rolled steel strip about four thousandths of an inch (0.1 mm) thick, about the same thickness as the hair it is designed to cut.

The steel is an alloy containing about 13 percent chromium, which gives it increased hardness and resistance to corrosion. The hardness is increased further by heating the steel and then plunging it into cool fluid. The shaving edge is produced by grinding. The strip passes through three sets of grinding wheels, each grinding finer than the one before. The wheels are set at different angles to give what is called a gothic-arch (curved) cross-section. The shape is stronger than a straight-sided wedge. The sharpness of the blade is expressed as the radius of the curve forming extreme tip of the cutting edge: about five hundred thousandths of a millimeter.

After grinding, the cutting edge is polished by rotating leather wheels. On a microscopic scale, however, the edge is still rough and because of friction, liable to snag the hairs and cause discomfort. To protect the cutting tip and reduce friction, the blade is given three successive coatings: chromium, ceramic and the plastic PTFE, more familiar as the slippery non-stick coating on pans. The chromium resists corrosion, the ceramic reduces wear and the PTFE produces lubrication.

The coating are each less than one hundred thousandths of a millimeter thick. The razor blade fits into a holder with a handle, which may be adjustable and may screw open to take the blade."

The above is more than probably the process of one particular manufacturer. I modified a stereoscope with some paper towel tubing and was able to get some images of blades (right out of the package) with a cheap Kodak digital camera.

Derby Extra
http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=1867

Merkur
http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=1870

Personna (US)
http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=1869

Feather
http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=1868

Seeing these in their sharper, 3D glory, I can say the following:

The Derby Extra blade evaluated has two distinct angles on its edges. Judging by the discontinuity of the grooves from the grinding process, each of these two angles is made at made by a different step in the process. The different angles on these blades have distinct, medium-sized grooves, but look evenly polished. The surface of the angle approaching each tip is fairly wide, but the very tip of the cutting edge can't really be studied at this magnification; still, the cutting edges are straight and have no obvious anomalies. These blades are in keeping with a gothic arch shape described in the article.

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=1871

The Merkur blade sampled has three distinct angles on its edges. Judging by the discontinuity of the grooves from the grinding process, each of these three angles is made at made by a different step in the process. The different angles on these blades have coarse grooves that appear somewhat deep and relatively unpolished compared to the other samples. The surfaces of the last angle before the edges are very abrupt. The final cutting edges appear straight and have no obvious anomalies, but the blades have some splotches of coating or paraffin (presumably from the paper or the packaging process). These blades are in keeping with a gothic arch shape.

The American Personna blade sampled has two distinct angles on its edges. Judging by the discontinuity of the grooves left by the grinding process, each of these two angles is made at made by a different step in the process. The different angles on these blades have distinct medium-sized grooves, but look smoothly polished. The surfaces of the last angle before the cutting edges are relatively narrow. The final cutting edges are straight but have a lot of splotches of a coating or paraffin that make the cutting edge appear jagged and ununiform. These blades are made with the gothic arch shape.

The Feather blade sampled has two non-distinct, gently tapered angles on its edges. The continuity of the grooves from the grinding process indicates the entire tapered surface was made in the same grinding process. The edges of these blades have distinct fine grooves, but look smoothly polished. The entire ground portion of each edge is wide and the edges are somewhat wedge shaped. The cutting edges look straight and have no obvious anomalies. The blades have a long taper that, while having two slightly different angles, seem to have a shape of their own. A remarkable product that is understandably unlike any other.

I find that the wider the surface of "final approach" (or the more acute the last angle) to the very tip of the blade, the sharper the blade seems to my face; more abrupt final approaches seem to product fewer cuts and weepers, but more uneven shaving results. The residual coatings/paraffin on some the blades studied might explain the common observation that some blades shave more smoothly and evenly after a pass or two because these residues are likely to wear off.

I'd now like to get a look at the very tips of these blades and also see how they change with use.

-Ken

[Kyle]

Excellent writeup, Ken.

[guenron]

Ken,
For some reason I am unable to see the ATTACHED images you have embedded in your message. Do you think you could post them in the Gallery?

[Elgar]

Ken,
For some reason I am unable to see the ATTACHED images you have embedded in your message. Do you think you could post them in the Gallery?

Ron,

I hope they are displaying for everyone now. I can't tell for sure from here because the attached ones displayed on my browser.

Thanks!
Ken

[Scotto]

Now it works. Awesome post, Ken!! :thumbsup:

[KUJO]

Excellent Post! :thumbup1:

[DoubleE]

Nice job Ken!! Now, which one is sharper?:rolleyes:

[SteveL]

Wow, that's a great post.

[PoshRichM]

Ken, outstanding job! I wonder if it'd be possible to get a cross-sectional view...

I'm also interested in how the blades change with use.

-Rich

[guenron]

Ron,

I hope they are displaying for everyone now. I can't tell for sure from here because the attached ones displayed on my browser.

Thanks!
Ken
Great SHOW! (THANKS!) Now, can you bring on an electron-photo-microgaph and give us the REAL DEAL?:lol:
I have been unable to resurrect that R&D Treatise on Gillette's use of CLD tech on the edges.. I wonder what they look like up front and personal?

[Joe Lerch]

I believe that my take on irritation is accurate but may not be experienced exactly the same by every man. Generally speaking, nicks and cuts are caused by not enough cutting power (be it blade related or whatever) and abrasion (aka razor burn) is caused by too much cutting power.
I really have to disagree with this.

Razor burn (irritation) is an abrasive effect. I can testify to that after years of suffering with the most sensitive skin imaginable. Assuming you have a good cutting angle and use the same blades, a sharper blade has less friction than a dull one and requires less pressure to cut, so the irritation will come with the dull blade. (I'm assuming a lot here, but both of us practice some form of reduction, so I'm ignoring the effects of aggressive shaving). So, from simple physics and experience, the dull blade will cause more burn, everything else being equal. In fact, those of us who use str8s will remember having a slight irritation when we first started out. That's friction caused by a blade that cannot be sharpened as well as a machine made razor blade. Eventually, that little bit of abrasion goes unnoticed, but it produces a kind afterglow on the skin.

That's not to say that a sharp blade will not cause discomfort. But that 's not the same thing as razor burn. The sharp blade, if not handled carefully, will shave off a little bit of skin and expose fresh skin. That will be noticed as a sensitivity to touch, but it's very different from abrasion. And it should be easier to control. This is the only way cutting power produces irritation. It's not razor burn.

In my opinion, sharpness is the ultimate characteristic. I find it gives the ultimate shave and the best (closest) finish. It may be that because of my sensitive skin I prefer finishing with an extremely light touch, which I can only do with the sharpest blade- the Feather.

But there is one other feaure that comes up often and is not discussed much- smoothness (again, prep and everything else being equal). It's more easily achieved with a sharp blade, because it has to be smooth to be sharp and because you can work with minimum pressure. But there are other ways to get it, namely coatings, and most companies do it. In their latest blades (Fusion), Gillette has a PTFE (teflon) coating. This can account for the smoothness of those blades long after there no longer very sharp.

As far as nicks go, although they can be caused by not enough cutting power, more often they're caused by a mismatch between cutting power and shaving technique or not holding the skin flat. That's the kind of mismatch you have when an aggressive shaver uses a Feather blade. If you use a delicate touch and hold the skin flat you will not nick yourself, but it has to be delicate enough. The professional barbers who shave you with a Feather blade prove that, as did a certain master barber (regular str8) I knew in my youth. I suppose that mismatch can also come about when a guy is using a duller razor and doesn't have the skill to control the extra pressure, but I don't think that's what happens most often. Most often the blade is just too sharp for the person and is characterized as less forgiving.

I can understand how some guys can play around with sharpness vs. pressure as you do in using the two razors if their skin can tolerate the duller razor and additional pressure required. For my sensitive skin, that has always been a problem, and it may be for others.

[Joe Lerch]

For me, the smoothest shaver seems to be the Merkur, but it tends to pull and drag; To me that's a contradiction. Smooth means not pulling and dragging. How are you defining smooth?


Feathers are the sharpest, but tend to give me weepers everywhere before I know what happened This is a typical indication of a mismatch between blade sharpness and technique. THe Feathers are so sharp that they require an adjustment in your shaving style, both a reductionin the aggressiveness of your shave and an extreme reduction in pressure- mch lighter than you might expect. If you're not willing to make that adjustment, those blades are not for you.

[Joe Lerch]

I'm perplexed by the Swedes - I'm on my 4th shave and I've got to really watch my technique as I've got some burn going on. I can't say they've provided me a great experience with my Merkur Progress yet. I'm awaiting a 40's SS to arrive and will try with it. I've only tried Merkur to date and have only been DE shaving for like 6 weeks - so hardly the expert yet.I'm wondering whether you really have razor burn. Razor burn is a frictional effect, like a rope burn. The likely culprits are too steep a blade angle, too much pressure and overly aggressive shaving. The Swedish Gillettes are quite sharp and not likely to be causeing burn, assuming you're getting good prep.

On the other hand, you could be overshaving, which is easier with a sharp blade. If you shave too close, you'll remove a fine layer of skin and expose new, more sensitive skin. It may be sensitive to the touch, a kind of tingling, but it's not burn. If you're more careful at the finish (or reduce blade exposure) you can avoid this.

[Joe Lerch]

I got really curious about the blades in this thread and what made them so different when they looked so similar. I ventured into the attic this evening and found the old dissection scope I used to use for Roman numismatics. It tops out at only 30X magnification, but I could easily note a number of interesting differences in the edges of the blades and how they must have been made. I've been searching the internet on a comprehensive guide to the processes involved in making blades and the terms used in "blade anatomy" without too much luck. I'd like to know a little more about what I'm seeing.

I wish I could photograph what the stereomicroscope is showing and post the results. We have an image scanner at work with a very high native resolution, so I'm thinking about "scanning" the blades at full resolution and seeing what I can come up with. I'm also sniffing around for a good micrometer I can borrow from someone at work to compare the thicknesses.

Is anyone interested in this?I'm extremely interested, and I've been working on this kind of thing with str8s. Radio Shack makes a pocket 60-100x zoom microscope which is useful. It costs $10.

[Joe Lerch]

Great post Ken. I don't know what magnification you used. I looked at the Feather super pro str8 blades under 200x to compare them to regular str8s. The Feather seemed concave at the very edge of the bevel. I couldn't see grinding striations there, so they must have been very fine, but the interesting thing was that the very edge was not just ground. It seemed to have an edge like a carbide tool, but microscopic. I assume the razor blades are the same because they're equally sharp (but they don't last as long).

[DoubleE]

In my opinion, sharpness is the ultimate characteristic. I find it gives the ultimate shave and the best (closest) finish. It may be that because of my sensitive skin I prefer finishing with an extremely light touch, which I can only do with the sharpest blade- the Feather.



Joe:

I'm with you on this one! We agree on the Feather and the tecnique in which to use it.

[SSLStudio]

Good post Ken keep it comming perhaps you could add more blades for comparison ? Russian Gillettes, Lord, Swedis Gill, ISraeli Person.

I have a love hate relationship with Derby Extra at the moment they keep nicking me. while other blades dont im still to new with all this shaving so cant tell at the moment if I ever will by Derby's again or not. Feather's I have never tried im waiting for Obsessis package to arrive and anticipate some fun shaving with them...