5/8 Dovo Tortoise..... 8 ways

[joel]

So it begins....

The test begins with 8 brand new, sealed Dovo 5/8 Tortoise Specials.
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7138

Each one was opened and carefully inspected....
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7139
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7140

Each one was labeled with a piece of masking tape - denoting what it's honing/finishing would be...
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7141

I honed up each razor with my Norton 4K/8K to shaving sharp, and tested each razor. One razor (see picture below) was kept at this stage to use as a comparison against the others.
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7142

50 strokes on the Chinese 12K.....
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7143

10 Strokes on the Belgian
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7144

10 Strokes on the Escher
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7145

10 Strokes on a barber hone (this partcular one is a Carborundum)
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7146

10 Strokes on a Kitayama
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7147

25 strops on the .5 diamond paste, then 25 strops on the .25 diamond
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7148

30 Strops on Green Chrome Oxide Paste (.5 micron)
http://www.badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7149

I'll use each of these razors a few times, taking notes after each use, compare/contrast the results, and report back! :thumbup1:

[ouch]

You know what I always liked about you Joel? You're nuts! :lol:

Who else would go through the time, expense, and effort to prove such a valuable point? :thumbup1:

I don't care what anybody says: this ranks right up there with the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887.

I anxiously await the results.

[mparker762]

:confused: No test on newsprint?

[Steerpike]

This appears to be a very interesting experiment, and I look forward to seeing the results. The one question that I believe it will not answer is one of beard type- old barbers manuals meantion that the honing of a razor should be different depending on the beard type to be shaved, be it light or coarse. What sort of stubble do you have?

[Mottern Man]

You know what I always liked about you Joel? You're nuts! :lol:

Who else would go through the time, expense, and effort to prove such a valuable point? :thumbup1:

I don't care what anybody says: this ranks right up there with the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887.

I anxiously await the results.


If it would prove to be of any use, Joel would probably shave with a steak knife just to do a review (or shut some one up). :thumbup:

[Xert]

The only word for this is....wow.

[xChris]

Awesome! :drool:

Looking forward to the results of your latest grand experiment.

[Howard Newell]

Is there going to be a pool to see which blade is the sharpest? :biggrin:

[daniel]

I know almost nothing about straights, so this is going be very educational for me. Good think Joel is around to do this sort of thing. :001_smile

[sergio]

This is something very usefull, i can't thank you enough.
cheers.

[Scorpio]

I would like to offer a safe and comfortable home to one of the subjects of this experiment. I promise not to use for any diabolical experiments:biggrin:

I am also very interested in the results!!!!

Raf

[BrianP]

It'll be VERY interesting to see how significant the differences are from each different type of finishing. That and how much of a perceived gap there is from just finishing with the 8K Norton vs any of the finer finishes.

Even if I don't make the queue to provide a home for one of the test subjects, I plan on buying a 5/8" tortoise special anyway.

[Amyn]

Very nice!!:thumbup1:
I have ventured into str8s and all my DEs are collecting dust. Also purchased a 4K/8K stone.
The results should help me figure out my next stone purchase..:thumbup:

[Kyle]

As usual, Joel always comes up with a unique and cool experiment. :thumbsup: I'll anxiously be awaiting the results.

[joel]

I've actually been thinking about trying out these 8.... then possibly honing up 7 of the 8 (all but the norton 4/8K) again with different finishing hones to have an even broader test group. Yeah.... I really have to many hones!

:lol:

[Doc4]

You know what I always liked about you Joel? You're nuts! :lol:

Who else would go through the time, expense, and effort to prove such a valuable point? :thumbup1:

I don't care what anybody says: this ranks right up there with the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887.

I anxiously await the results.

+awholebunch

Hey, just looking at all those photos of razor & stone porn is worth it for me!! :tongue_sm

[Thebigspendur]

The only comment I have is: I have found that even with multiple razors of the same type, even when consecutively numbered by the maker the condition of each blade can vary widely out of the box. Therefore, the blades are probably of unequal sharpness so after honing each how do you determine the starting point vis a vis there is no absolute way to get equal honing keanness for each razor. So your starting out with unequal blade qualities. I only mention this because I had the same problem doing a stropping experiment with 3 razors a while back on SRP.

[ouch]

I'm hoping that the Escher and the Belgian, which I don't have, don't fare much better than the Kitayama, which I do.

I heed more stones like I need a hole in the head.

[joel]

The only comment I have is: I have found that even with multiple razors of the same type, even when consecutively numbered by the maker the condition of each blade can vary widely out of the box. Therefore, the blades are probably of unequal sharpness so after honing each how do you determine the starting point vis a vis there is no absolute way to get equal honing keanness for each razor. So your starting out with unequal blade qualities. I only mention this because I had the same problem doing a stropping experiment with 3 razors a while back on SRP.

I honed all of them on the Norton 4/8K and test shaved with them - then finished 7 of the 8 razors in the aformentioned manner.

Hope this helps...

[ouch]

My only tiny little complaint, and this is really just nit picking, is that rather than give each blade a specific number of strokes, why not just hone each to the best of your ability with each stone? That's what the typical user would do, anyway.

Honing razors is one of the most counter intuitive and frustrating things imaginable. The blade may be perfect after, say, eight strokes, and then then ninth will result in a setback. If the chinese 12K is good after 40 strokes, why go on? And if it needs 60, why deny it?

[izlat]

Interesting, quite interesting. Not really sure what will be achieved, though.

The results should not be used for any "scientific" general conclusions regarding Belgians and Eschers - because as major experts concede there is so much natural variation, that any one specimen of them can be *better* than the other, depending on the individual stones which happen to be used for the comparison.

If anything, it seems we'll know what Joel thinks about his particular hones. For some perspective: same model razors can exhibit variation in the way they respond to the same hone, if we assume that all other things can be kept equal (angle, pressure, length of path on hone, slurry consistency, etc.) - which seems a bit much to expect... But of course, this experiment is not as simple, as we are talking about different hones...

Nevertheless, it's refreshing to see such work, this is the right attitude (e.g. I can talk much more about why this might not work or why it doesn't have as much value as some seem to expect - but the truth is that we need positive inquisitive minds and practical efforts to improve our understanding

Cheers
Ivo

[Suzuki]

To all the comments rearding the differences between consecutively numbered razors of the same make/model and the variations between natural hones from the same area/quarry, the reality is that no test is perfect, but that this is as good as it likely gets as far as a controlled hone comparison.

In fairness, the point about the variation in natural stones only really applies to the Escher and Belgian and I think the point about the variations in natural hones is worth remembering when deciding to plunk down your cash for a particular hone (assuming those are the hones that fare the "best" in this experiment)

Joe - can you be more specific about your Escher and Belgian hone - vintage vs. current (not sure if they still quarry Eschers - but I'm sure someone will let me know). I would also be interested in how the Thuringen hones Tony is selling compare with these hones, but that might be something for stage two!

Finally, to the point about using a set number of strokes vs. honing to the best of one's ability - while I think the number of strokes used for control purposes is about right, if a razor doesn't shave right after the initial honing, it would be interesting to take it back to the same hone/paste to see whether more strokes brings the edge up to snuff and, if so, approximately how many.

This is very interesting and I thank Joel for going to the trouble and time to run this hone "shootout".

[heavydutysg135]

One thing that I would recommend would be performing the test more than once to see if the same results are repeatable. Also it might be nice to find a way to make the testing "blind" so that you don't naturally favor one of the more expensive stones such as the coticule or escher. Maybe put a random number instead of the stone on the blades, then have the wife make a sheet that says the actual honing media that was used on each razor that you would not see until the test was done. This might remove some of the bias in the final review.

[izlat]

so what point is Joel trying to prove (or who is he trying to shut up)?


Is there going to be a pool to see which blade is the sharpest? :biggrin:

I'd actually prefer to know which blalde feels smoothest on the face, if possible.


To all the comments rearding the differences between consecutively numbered razors of the same make/model and the variations between natural hones from the same area/quarry, the reality is that no test is perfect, but that this is as good as it likely gets as far as a controlled hone comparison.

True, true on the "no test is perfect part." On the "as good as it likely gets... controlled hone comparison" - this test is too limited and leaves too many variables out to be considered "controlled" by me but kudos to Joel for taking the time and efforts


In fairness, the point about the variation in natural stones only really applies to the Escher and Belgian and I think the point about the variations in natural hones is worth remembering when deciding to plunk down your cash for a particular hone (assuming those are the hones that fare the "best" in this experiment)

Yup, I feel one is basically faced with a leap of faith in purchasing a Belgian or Escher hone. This is why I try to go with vendors who have a good reputation.


Joe - can you be more specific about your Escher and Belgian hone - vintage vs. current (not sure if they still quarry Eschers - but I'm sure someone will let me know). I would also be interested in how the Thuringen hones Tony is selling compare with these hones, but that might be something for stage two!

Right on, Chris: what is the grade of the Belgian (standard, select, kosher), vintage; is this a Green / Blue Escher, what's the slurry stone, etc. I thought they still cut Thuringens from old blocks quarried in the past; Did you mean the NOS Thuringens Tony is selling or the Hunsruecks?

Anyway - a poll about results! I'd venture that for a truly shave-ready razor off 8K, the 30 laps on "Green Chrome Oxide" will give the smoothest shave - which is what I am after - ceteris paribus, as much as possible.

(lately I myself follow 8K with a kosher Belgian and y/g Escher and then move on to chromium. Next I'll incorporate one more step for my chosen ones - newsprint to see where this takes me. I have tried newspaper in the past and results were good, but I have never done it after the above progression)

Cheers
Ivo

[izlat]

One thing that I would recommend would be performing the test more than once to see if the same results are repeatable. Also it might be nice to find a way to make the testing "blind" so that you don't naturally favor one of the more expensive stones such as the coticule or escher. Maybe put a random number instead of the stone on the blades, then have the wife make a sheet that says the actual honing media that was used on each razor that you would not see until the test was done. This might remove some of the bias in the final review.

Great points, David. I was thinking of actually having other advanced users shave with the razors and report to Joel, who would be the only one knowing what got what treatment. Of course, these complicate the experiment but I think they are great ideas.

This is still possible - Joel can use the razors for some time, and then pass them along marked with numbers to others, in a vacuum sealed package to ensure nobody handled them at the post office or something...

Cheers
Ivo

[joel]

To all the comments rearding the differences between consecutively numbered razors of the same make/model and the variations between natural hones from the same area/quarry, the reality is that no test is perfect, but that this is as good as it likely gets as far as a controlled hone comparison.

In fairness, the point about the variation in natural stones only really applies to the Escher and Belgian and I think the point about the variations in natural hones is worth remembering when deciding to plunk down your cash for a particular hone (assuming those are the hones that fare the "best" in this experiment)

Joe - can you be more specific about your Escher and Belgian hone - vintage vs. current (not sure if they still quarry Eschers - but I'm sure someone will let me know). I would also be interested in how the Thuringen hones Tony is selling compare with these hones, but that might be something for stage two!

Finally, to the point about using a set number of strokes vs. honing to the best of one's ability - while I think the number of strokes used for control purposes is about right, if a razor doesn't shave right after the initial honing, it would be interesting to take it back to the same hone/paste to see whether more strokes brings the edge up to snuff and, if so, approximately how many.

This is very interesting and I thank Joel for going to the trouble and time to run this hone "shootout".

First - the number of finishing strokes are the "rough" numbers that are agreed upon by the majority. When "properly" honing a blade on the 4/8K and honing it to it's "max" level on the 8K.... you have a really outstanding shaver as is - so the "finish" if you will isn't going to take much. While I COULD have honed each one to their "max" level - I didn't think it would make all that much sense, as then the argument could have been made that for instance "If I did 10 strokes with the Belgian, and 25 with the Escher" I may have overhoned the escher, etc etc. 10 Strokes isn't "perfect" but I feel it gives a really good idea of the characteristics of the finishing stone, and is more than enough to generate a full conclusion.

As far as the particular stones - the belgian is a "current" production, and the escher is vintage. I DO however have vintage Belgians, as well as a Thuringen from Tony, so for round 2, I might have to give those a go.

[Suzuki]

First - the number of finishing strokes are the "rough" numbers that are agreed upon by the majority. When "properly" honing a blade on the 4/8K and honing it to it's "max" level on the 8K.... you have a really outstanding shaver as is - so the "finish" if you will isn't going to take much. While I COULD have honed each one to their "max" level - I didn't think it would make all that much sense, as then the argument could have been made that for instance "If I did 10 strokes with the Belgian, and 25 with the Escher" I may have overhoned the escher, etc etc. 10 Strokes isn't "perfect" but I feel it gives a really good idea of the characteristics of the finishing stone, and is more than enough to generate a full conclusion.

As far as the particular stones - the belgian is a "current" production, and the escher is vintage. I DO however have vintage Belgians, as well as a Thuringen from Tony, so for round 2, I might have to give those a go.

Joel - this makes perfect sense.

While there are lots of variables and we could spend days developing the "perfect" protocol, I agree that this test will really help people get a sense of how these hones/pastes perform.

Another major variable is the shaving technique/skin/preferences of the shaver. I tend to finish on diamond pastes - for some razors the .25 seems a little too sharp, for others its just right. I also think the edge I get off of my finishing hones tends to last a little longer. Finally, there are lots of folks who say the chrome oxide puts a smoother edge on a blade than the diamond - I could go on (and on and on...).

My point is that people should take the results of this or any similar test as a great guide, but there is no "best" hone/paste - as with every other aspect of wetshaving, there is a lot of personal preference involved.

Joel - thanks again for undertaking this project.

[izlat]

... this test will really help people get a sense of how these hones/pastes perform.

Um - for the sake of accuracy: this test will really let people know what Joel says about these hones / pastes, based on his skills, etc. If people can test-shave with the razors - then they will get a sense what Joel can do with a hone / paste, given his methodology. Which may be very different from what say Lynn can do with the same razor and the same hone, based on his approach and skills.


My point is that people should take the results of this or any similar test as a great guide, but there is no "best" hone/paste - as with every other aspect of wetshaving, there is a lot of personal preference involved.

Joel - thanks again for undertaking this project.

Agree 100%: Joel certainly deserves recognition for undertaking the experiment, and people may choose to use it as a guide - but they should be very clear of the risk that their results and experiences may diverge quite significantly.

Cheers
Ivo

[Joe Lerch]

A very ambitious undertaking, Joel! I awate the results with bated breath.

I just wonder about a few things. How do you know that the razors are all starting at the same point (after the 4K/8K). Did they have to meet some standard? After all, if we don't start in the same place how can a comparison be fair?

How do you justify the choice of strokes for each grit at the second stage? It seems to me that you should be looking to meet some standard, like the best you can do, regardless of the number of strokes. Otherwise, it could be argued that you didn't give some grit a fair chance because you went too far or didn't go far enough. I would love to see the best result with each grit. After all, that's what we'd be doing. And maybe if you go for the best result with each grit it doesn't matter so much what you did on the 4K/8K, because you could just be compensating for it at the second stage.

What will you be testing with each razor? How easily it cuts? How close it shaves (time to stubble up)? How long it remains useable with only stropping? In other words, what properties are we really looking for and testing?

[Wil]

Still very new to this particular style of shaving- thank you Joel- your work is appreciated. :a14:

[mjsorkin]

One thing that I would recommend would be performing the test more than once to see if the same results are repeatable. Also it might be nice to find a way to make the testing "blind" so that you don't naturally favor one of the more expensive stones such as the coticule or escher. Maybe put a random number instead of the stone on the blades, then have the wife make a sheet that says the actual honing media that was used on each razor that you would not see until the test was done. This might remove some of the bias in the final review.

I also think that a blind test would be best. I have a few additional suggestions on how that could be done:

1-The razors could be honed by one person, and then sent to another person to be shaved with. The shaver would not know what, if any differences there are between the razors. He would take notes on each shave and post the notes. After the test, the razors would be revealed.

2-The razors could be used by the user to shave another person. The shavee and shaver both take notes on each shave and post them. They would have no idea what razor is being used and if they are different.


Ideally the tester should just be handed 8 numbered blades and told to "test these". This way the tester doesn't even know that they may be different. The result in this case could be that all the blades are the same. A test that isn't blind, excludes the possibility, however unlikely, that all the honing methods achieve the same result.

I think this is a great idea and it's certainly a lot of effort. I think in the end a lot of people will buy the stone that Joel determines to be the best. If anyone really disagrees, or finds fault with the test then they will just say the oft repeated phrase "YMMV". I can't imagine that anyone will be worse off in the end.

----Michael

[HoustonianYankee]

Joel,

I would like to buy the second best rated razor from you. I assume you'll keep the best for yourself.

[heavydutysg135]

Joel,

I would like to buy the second best rated razor from you. I assume you'll keep the best for yourself.


I think that there is already a line at least long enough for about three people for every razor. LOL

[joel]

For what it is worth, the buyers will have the option of choosing which finishing they want on their razor, so I will re-hone/finish it before it is shipped.

[izlat]

I am really curious (as, I am sure, many others) to hear about the test progress :biggrin:

Cheers
Ivo

[Kyle76]

Put me on the list of potential buyers, please, if it's not already full.

[joel]

Ivo,
I'm currently in in the midst of round 2 (more hones :biggrin: ) - however the testy should be completed by next weekend!

[jscott]

my money is on the chromium and the chinese 12k... i really like the feel of both of those 2 finishes.

can't wait to see the results.

~J

[izlat]

Ivo,
I'm currently in in the midst of round 2 (more hones :biggrin: ) - however the testy should be completed by next weekend!

Thanks for the update, Joel - this sounds great! Looking forward

Cheers
Ivo

[The Invisible Edge]

Well for what it's worth I honed one of these out of the box last week for a customer and after 10 strokes on a 10k jap waterstone it popped hairs wholesale on the HH test. What an edge. After I stropped it it was scary. Maybe this will help in Joels quest - I'm glad to see there's a few of us left! :c6:

[Lynn]

This kind of experimentation is fun, but at the end of the day, each person's ability, type of stroke and pressure of stroke will be as different as every razor and the media being used. I hone these things up by the dozens and many times with either 6 or 12 of the same razor at a sitting. Of interest, sometimes 5 of 6 will be perfect and one won't. Sometimes 8 of 12 will be fine and the 4 will not be as nice. What's really interesting at that point is how much touch up. I try to run them all through the same routines, but sometimes one will be fine with a .5 micron diamond paste and then one will be fine after going to the .25. Go figure. Then there is the difference of using the finishing hones with slurry and without. There was a day when I only used a Norton 4K/8K. Then I went to the Norton with green and red pastes. Then diamond pastes. Then indvidually all the finishing hones being used here. At every stage I was able to get a razor to give a nice comfy shave, but with each new addition, my level of comfy improved. Typically certain razors did better than others with different media. This could go on and on and on. The continuation here should get interesting.

Have fun,

Lynn

[BrianP]

Is it wrong that I keep coming back to this thread just to look at the pictures? I think I'm developing and unhealthy fascination with the 5/8 Dovo Tortoise.

[The Invisible Edge]

Is there going to be a pool to see which blade is the sharpest? :biggrin:

May well be a very large one if his hand's got the shakes from all that honing!:eek:

[vcowman]

I cant wait until the razors become available for sale, I may have missed it but have there been any announcements so far? THanks

[LarryBob]

Joel,
I don't know if you have given up on this project. I also don't know if all the razors are spoken for? I could not wait any longer so I went out and bought one from classic shaving. (Unfortunately after getting it honed by Lyn, my stropping skills were sufficient to immediately dull the razor)
I could use a second one ( While I am sending out my handiwork to get re-sharpened!)
I am now thinking I need a hone.......(to really see how much damage I can do.)
Eagerly waiting for your results before I make my investment in a stone.
Thanks
LArry

[izlat]

I am also looking forward to the results :)

Larry - this was funny. You can certainly do more damage with a hone. But that's the only way to learn. Maybe get a junker razor for starters to avoid wrecking your new Dovo

Cheers
Ivo

[mparker762]

Don't worry too much about it Larry - I dulled my first razor on the strop after only one shave, and dulled the second one after only three shaves. But the third one - the third one stayed sharp. Then I dulled my first razor on the hone...

It took a few weeks to really start getting the hang of it, but it was a very rewarding experience.

[Doc4]

Don't worry too much about it Larry - I dulled my first razor on the strop after only one shave, and dulled the second one after only three shaves. But the third one - the third one stayed sharp. Then I dulled my first razor on the hone...

It took a few weeks to really start getting the hang of it, but it was a very rewarding experience.

"son, one day all this will be yours"
"what, the curtains?"

[Rik]

I am also looking forward to the results :)

Larry - this was funny. You can certainly do more damage with a hone. But that's the only way to learn. Maybe get a junker razor for starters to avoid wrecking your new Dovo

Cheers
Ivo

Excellent advise. Larry, I'd recommend you master your stropping technique before moving onto honing. When starting out, it pays to keep a journal of your stropping and honing sessions.

If you do decide to pursue the junker, make sure it's capable of holding an edge. Many of the eBay "specials" truly are junk. If you're having a hard time finding a practice razor, PM me.

[Mottern Man]

Long time no see Rik.

[Rik]

A short break in my schedule has allowed me to spend some leisure time on the net. I certainly have missed B&B.

[joel]

Alright fellas - the experiment is complete - and all 8 razors will be available for sale sometime tomorrow in the decant club (it will open tomorrow) - first come first served. A lot of fellas have expressed interest in purchasing one of these pre-honed, new Dovo Special Tortoise razors, so Nick and I felt the only fair way to offer them to everyone was first come first served.


Note: In the comments section when you checkout - you can state in which manner you desire the razor to be finished in, for example: Belgian Coticule, Green Chromide, Diamond Paste, Chinese 12K, etc - and I will hone it in that particular manner - test shave with it (to be certain it shaves well) and steralize it. If you don't care which manner the razor is finished - leave the comments section blank.

These are superb little shavers, and shave as well as razors 3-4X their price.

:smile:

[Buzz]

Did I miss the write up on the results of this experiment?

[joel]

Did I miss the write up on the results of this experiment?

Nope - just need to finish it.... too many B&B "to-do's" on my list right now!

[blantyre]

You know what I always liked about you Joel? You're nuts! :lol:

Who else would go through the time, expense, and effort to prove such a valuable point? :thumbup1:

I don't care what anybody says: this ranks right up there with the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887.

I anxiously await the results.

Didn't those guys get a Nobel prize in physics? It would be cool if someone got one for services to shaving science.