Are reviews a waste of time?

[jhclare]

Hi Gents,

As much as I love this hobby and reading the forums, I'm starting to believe that product reviews aren't as reliable as you would think. I think they should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

The fact is, we all have different tastes and preferences, different faces and beards, different water supplies, live all around the globe. Added to that, brushes vary so much between batches in terms of loft, knot shape, and hair quality. I speak from experience of various Rooney and Simpsons brushes I've owned. Not to mention the reformulation of soap ingredients.

Added to that the hype that surrounds certain products and personal bias for certain brands/ingredients, makes it all even less reliable.

Discuss! :wink2:

John

[Slivovitz]

We've probably all read someone's opinion of a brush, soap, or razor, one that we have our own experiences with, and not been able to believe that the reviewer is describing the same thing.

One of us will have a wonderfully good, or excruciatingly bad, experience with a soap, razor, or brush, and rush to share it here. I've done it myself. It's just one person's opinion, often based on a very short trial, and of course others should not put too much reliance on it.

There's a reason that "YMMV" is used so frequently around here. Still, I'm glad to read how products have worked out for other people. There is often useful factual information, such as how a blade loads in a particular razor, or how bad the glue spots are on some brand of blades. There are some things, such as whether a scent is pleasant or not, or how "aggressive" a razor is, that you just have to decide for yourself.

[Drybonz]

I think a number of reviews are pretty helpful. 1 review about a product just gives you another person's opinion... but if 40 out of 50 B&B members tell me that a soap is no good, that will probably save me some time and money.

I have a finite amount of money and shaves left in my life, so I just can't try all the products out there... reviews are pretty helpful to me.

[Alec79]

I do question people who have a really bad experience with a product. I have all the easily available creams and soaps and all work as intended. Some may dry my skin a little more than others, I may prefer the scent of one or the other, but they still do what they are supposed to once you get the soap/water ratio correct to make a good lather.

Same with razors. Now that I understand the shaving process and just don't hack mindlessly at my face with a cartridge, I can get a perfectly good shave with anything and indeed, the Bic Sensitive is my favoured weekday morning razor. Cheap, sharp, lasts longer than any DE blade and readily available in probably every corner shop in the developed world, what's not to like about it?

[The Count of Merkur Cristo]

John:
I think not because of the vast range of negitive & positive opinions on products. I would likekly to steer away from products that have gotten a vast amount of bad press coverage :detective:

Christopher http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/SerraTijn/smileys/smiley_shaving.gif

[jhclare]

For me, a brush review tells me about the handle and general appearance of the brush, but cannot tell me how it feels on the face, as this will depend on the hair and how the knot is packed.

This definitely varies between brushes/batches.

I've had three Rooney 3/1s and all were totally different in feel. One even had a loft of 55mm! I hate the inconsistency of Rooney and Simpson brushes. Take the Duke 3 - I've seen pics where the knot is 50mm or so! Mine was 46mm. BIG difference in face feel and performance, it's a different brush really!

I had a Grosvenor LE from Bullgoose with was a different brush to those described in the reviews. Its tips were very prickly, more than any other brush I've owned!

John

[ryeblade]

What's the alternative? As with any opinion it is prudent to consider the source and that is the challenge, to better know the reviewer. Takes time to discover resonance. I also appreciate the education. Discussion and review often articulate points and issues that may not appear on my radar yet.
It's better than soliciting shave info from the Bicycle page (or whatever else the interest is...).
Build your internal filters, get a shovel, put yer waders on and have at it. Enjoy!

[Wemshie]

The reviews when taken together give you a general opinion of something. Like any review in any format in the world, you may not agree, but a collection of reviews can be considered a good solid foundation on which to decide whether you want to try a product. They are also useful for when you are trying to find a product with a particular set of properties; for example an easy to lather soap with menthol or a strong smelling balm with top end moisturising. Let's face it, a manufacturer is always going to say their product is the best, so you need first hand reviewing to get the detail.
Oh and they can be fun to read.

[Pulley]

John:
I think not because of the vast range of negitive & positive opinions on products. I would likekly to steer away from products that have gotten a vast amount of bad press coverage :detective:

Christopher http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/SerraTijn/smileys/smiley_shaving.gif

+1 - I like the review section a lot. As stated above if a product is getting mostly all bad reviews I'll stay away from it.

Reviews are the starting point for me in my search for new and different DE shaving products. For me there are members whose reviews and comments seem to echo my thoughts after trying the product so their reviews carry a little more weight with me. StylinLA, Vertigo1234 & Marco are just a few B&B members whose reviews I really rely on.

Remeber YMMV!

[Dennis]

I disagree. There are many reviewers I trust and know they like similar products as I do. I give weight to reviewers that have a similar experience with a product and it gives me more confidence to try something new. The more people in this pool and the more reviews per person, both good and bad, make this work even better.

[Drubbing]

Reviews are inherently biased. Most reviews are favourable because people generally only want to talk about stuff they like.

Reviews that provide minimal info, or show narrow experience are unreliable. I liked a great deal of stuff I now find very ordinary, now that have better technique and a wider range of product to provide comparisons and benchmarks.

I make it a point to chip on stuff that I found poor, even if the consensus is otherwise.

Sure, they're not perfect, but you make your own judgements based on the quality of reviews and some experience of what you know you may like.

[Mike'sWorld]

Most shaving products are so personal in nature. Smell, slickness and ease of lathering of soaps are all variable.

For example, I love Jack Black shave cream. Great smell and works well for me. This product is generally reviled here. On the other hand, I also love Cella, which is beloved here.

[CraigarTA]

One must remember reviews (opinions) are like a-holes.
Everybody has one.

So no two will really be alike.

[stobor]

I certainly find the reviews here helpful.

They point me to products I would never have found otherwise.

They (occasionally) warn me not to try bad stuff.

And many reviews, even reviews of things I already own, provide me with valuable tips and techniques about their use that really give me a better experience.

-Scott

[njpaddy]

I like the review section, although it usually leads to buying something. I use the reviews much like the reviews on sites like amazon or epinion. I look for the negatives of the product or direct comparisons with products I already have. Lately I've been concentrating on the cream and aftershave reviews. First I read the reviews, then search the forums, then it's off to the vendor sites.

[garyg]

I appreciate the review section, more so when a product has received a number of reviews from different people. Even where the number of reviewers is limited, they may be helpful by raising an angle that I hadn't considered that might be helpful. At the end of the day, any extra knowledge is good as long as you allow for your mileage being different.

[jhclare]

Great responses everyone - interesting reading.

I wasn't bashing reviews, just opening a topic for discussion.

I think one should be careful when reviewing and also reading reviews. I think to review a product you should have some experience with other similar products in order for your points to be useful.

When reading, it does help if the reviewer is held in high regard, and/or has similar tastes/requirements that you do.

However, there is still the issue of water hardness/quality and differences in production runs of brushes.

I agree, they provide an excellent starting point.

John

[justinp]

I treat online reviews at B&B the same way I treat online reviews on Yelp or other rating services-- useless individually, hugely helpful in aggregate. 1 person's experience with a product (or restaurant, or barber) isn't worth worrying about either way. 40 people, though, is a reasonable sample size.

[Crixus]

I've had three Rooney 3/1s and all were totally different in feel. One even had a loft of 55mm! I hate the inconsistency of Rooney and Simpson brushes.Haven't you heard? Why, they're handmade. 8-10mm loft differences only amplify their charm and "one of a kind" originality. :lol:

[Jim]

One thing I learned early in my B&B tenure-if a couple of specific guys posted a review, their results mirrored my own very closely on some products in kind, so it stood to reason that any new product they positively reviewed would also be a good fit for me.

The B&B review system is terribly flawed- it's done by humans.:lol:

[Sledgehammer39]

I believe that many of the shaving products are so different from person to person. However, the review section gives me sort of a guaging point to see if a product is worth it or not. Merkur blades get a bad rep, but I still purchase them in small packs. YMMV

[Austin]

Reviews are a good starting point. Just like fragrance reviews, other product reviews are similar. They are influenced by the product of the moment. Gents tend to get excited by new products until they move on to the next new product. Another point is that reviews by new members are not always accurate due to inexperience. Nevertheless, I enjoy reading reviews.

[gearchow]

For me, it's like reading basenote's reviews where there are an equal number of thumb ups and downs. I hope I'm like the reviewers who gave a thumb up, but I know I'm like the one's that gave the thumb down.

Any characterization based on human experience and senses are bound to be YMMV.

Ultimately, you won't know until you do the review.

-jim

[tvldatsi]

as a new wetshaver, I've found the reviews to be both a curse and a blessing. The words of an experienced user are invaluable in this hobby, especially because most products have to be purchased sight unseen through the internet. The only problem is that most review pages have at least one negative post, and that plants the seed of doubt. I am on a budget too, so it makes coping with ADs very difficult. in the end I just stare at my computer looking like this guy :confused1

[ackvil]

I disagree. There are many reviewers I trust and know they like similar products as I do. I give weight to reviewers that have a similar experience with a product and it gives me more confidence to try something new. The more people in this pool and the more reviews per person, both good and bad, make this work even better.

+1. There are some people on this site who when they write a review I generally know it will mirror my opinion. As a result, there are many products I have tried after a review that I might not have known about. For example, if Marco gives a soap or cream high marks, I generally will try it since I have found his likes and dislikes are similar to mine.

[Slartibartfast]

You need to look at who is writing the reviews also.

I know when I was new this, every time i tried a new soap/cream it was "The best soap i've ever used!!!!!".

[miamimoe]

I find the reviews useful to a point. In other words, they are a general indicator of the item, and no more. Now that I have been back to wet shaving for 10 months or so, and have experimented with lord knows how many soaps, creams, razors, blades, brushes and aftershaves, I have a very good idea of what I am looking for in a product. One example is razors. If most reviewers say it is a "mild shaver", I won't even think about it, because I have learned that I like a moderately aggressive razor. That said, someone's idea of mild may be another persons idea of a blood machine. So, yes, you have to take them with a grain of salt, but given the huge variety of product, where else can you go for information?

[David in Boston]

Reviews are helpful but not the final word on a product.

Before I purchase a product I will read the reviews first. If I see a majority of positive ratings then I will consider purchasing it. Still even if the product has positive reviews I'm also considering its' properties. For example, I like short loft, scrubby boar brushes. It is understandable that some folks don't.

I know it does sound redundant but YMMV.

[Dave in the basement]

I like the reviews because they usually contain more depth about a product than you usually receive from a marketing fluff piece about the same product. The reviews I find the most helpful contain the "If you like product x, you will probably like this. If you prefer product y, though, I'd suggest staying away" type of approach.

Good topic!

[Crixus]

I would like to see B&B instill at least a 12-month membership criteria before being able to post reviews. We've all been newbies at one point, so I can say this without condescension: Inexperienced shaver reviews are worse than no review.

[Don B]

As someone said earlier, the usefulness of reviews of any kind are inherently limited because they're based on one person's opinion. Couple the opinion aspect with the huge YMMV aspect inherent in the skin-razor interface and the relative value of shaving-related reviews diminish even further. However, all this is highly mitigated by the broad experience and passion for shaving that exists on this thread. I'd much rather come here for shaving-related opinions than on Amazon. And besides, for some reason, Marco's reviews always make me smile.

Don

[ouch]

One thing I learned early in my B&B tenure-if a couple of specific guys posted a review, their results mirrored my own very closely on some products in kind, so it stood to reason that any new product they positively reviewed would also be a good fit for me.

The B&B review system is terribly flawed- it's done by humans.:lol:

This post saved me a lot of writing.

Eventually you'll find a small, select group of folks whose tastes most closely mirror your own. The opinion of just one guy from that group is far more valuable than reading 47 different reviews on the same miracle brush or soap. If xx or yy tells me that they think I'll dislike a product, they're probably correct to the extent that I simply won't bother. This is far different from sheeplike obeyance- they really do know my tastes, pro and con, and have proven themselves correct time and again.

[jgkeegan]

Collectively, reviews are informative and helpful.

Taken individually, they can be informative and helpful and also entertaining even if the entertainment part comes only from having mentally predicted what was about to be said, and I think it comes from a far wider spectrum.

I like them.

--james

[ouch]

I would like to see B&B instill at least a 12-month membership criteria before being able to post reviews. We've all been newbies at one point, so I can say this without condescension: Inexperienced shaver reviews are worse than no review.

Great point. Someone recently contacted me to withdraw a review he made three years ago, as he now realizes that he was incorrect in his published assessment.

[jgkeegan]

I would like to see B&B instill at least a 12-month membership criteria before being able to post reviews. We've all been newbies at one point, so I can say this without condescension: Inexperienced shaver reviews are worse than no review.


Great point. Someone recently contacted me to withdraw a review he made three years ago, as he now realizes that he was incorrect in his published assessment.


I disagree strongly.

First, the number of months a person has been a B&B member is in no way related to their relative newbieness to wet shaving.

Second, the opinions of those who are now when they are new are as valid as their opinions years later.

Third, to observe people making distinctions on the value of opinions based on the length of time of B&B membership is, to say the least, warped.

No offense intended; just one man's opinion.

--james

[Crixus]

I disagree strongly.

First, the number of months a person has been a B&B member is in no way related to their relative newbieness to wet shaving.

Second, the opinions of those who are now when they are new are as valid as their opinions years later.

Third, to observe people making distinctions on the value of opinions based on the length of time of B&B membership is, to say the least, warped.

No offense intended; just one man's opinion.

--jamesJames, I respectfully disagree with every point you have listed here.

If they have been here a year, it means there is a good chance they have been wetshaving for a little while. No assurance in every case, but what is?

Secondly, an opinion of someone wetshaving for six weeks or less is their opinion, but they have very little to base it on in comparative reasoning. It is not reliable info for the most part.

Your third point I feel is answered in the first two points. I'm not warped for wanting information from someone whom I feel has a little better handle on a product COMPARED to the multitude of other choices.

I'll reiterate: Hopefully B&B will look seriously at newbie reviews.

[Laney1566]

Reviews aren't always telling us what is good and bad....They often reveal to us what a person is like. What their preferences and biases are. So I find them very useful for not only product descriptions, but people descriptions as well.

[Wil Dorenbos]

I would like to see B&B instill at least a 12-month membership criteria before being able to post reviews. We've all been newbies at one point, so I can say this without condescension: Inexperienced shaver reviews are worse than no review.

I think you have a point here. Some experience is necessary to do a review. Noobs often give their favorite product 100% (or something quite close). I think a 100% rating is not really possible. Nor is 0% btw, in case some one does not like it.

[bbarton713]

I would like to see B&B instill at least a 12-month membership criteria before being able to post reviews. We've all been newbies at one point, so I can say this without condescension: Inexperienced shaver reviews are worse than no review.

I think it is important to remember that reviews serve two purposes, in my opinion. The first is the obvious, people write about a product, rate it on a pre-set number of categories, and perhaps even compare and contrast that product with other ones that are similar to the one they tested.

The other purpose is a little more subtle but equally important. It lets us try new products, think about what we like, or don't, about a product and then do our best to write a review that we KNOW other people are going to read. It not only gets us thinking about the product that we've purchased but it is also part of building that sense of community that is so important to other aspects of this forum.

We see post counts and we have the ability to make decisions based on the quality of the post that we're reading. THIS SOAP IS THE BEST EVER will likely get skipped by me and I'll instead read the post that is more comprehensive and isn't written with all CAPS. :w00t:

I think that there are people that join this forum and are able to articulately review a product and talk about what they like and don't like from day one. Likewise there may be members that have been here for 12 months or more and wouldn't be able to write a good review if their life depended on it. You can't make enough rules to account for this.

[diverdoug]

I think Jim's point of noticing and remembering people who like the same soaps, or creams, or razors as you, since they have similar tastes is spot on. I might put in a reveiw that I think that the Merkur Slant is a very mild shaver (my honest opinion), but I know most people don't share this veiw. So when I feel RAD coming on, I might look for people who have reveiwed the slant as mild, because their face likes that type of shave. So of course, all reveiws must be taken with a grain of salt. If there was no variation in our perception of shaving products, we would all be using the one or 2 best soaps, creams, blades, razors ect. B&B would also be pretty pointless and boring from a shaving discussion standpoint.

[binowatch]

Most of us live where you cannot physically examine most of the products/gear rev'd and we obtain it over the net, by phone etc. I find it helpful to read the reviews, con granis salis, just to get an impression and some details not provided by the sellers before making a purchase. Its not foolproof but it is useful.

[SiBurning]

I would like to see B&B instill at least a 12-month membership criteria before being able to post reviews. We've all been newbies at one point, so I can say this without condescension: Inexperienced shaver reviews are worse than no review.
I'd rather impose the criteria that you have to post at least 365 reviews before you can post a review. :cool:

There's a difference between consumer reviews and professional reviews. The main difference is an experienced reviewer understands themselves, the needs of their audience, and knows how to get the essentials across, probably through making a lot of mistakes and reading a lot of other good reviews.

But people have to start somewhere. The only thing I'd ask of a reviewer is to think about how to make it useful to the readers. Come to think of it, that's not a bad criteria to apply to any post.

[LarryAndro]

I agree with the thought of finding reviewers you trust, and have similar tastes.

What this brings to mind is reviews of Gold Dollar razors. Without making any comment, this razor illustrates some of the difficulties with reviews.

Gold Dollar...

One man's straight razor.
Another man's poison!

[mandoman]

EVERY TIME I WANT BUY SOMETHING NEW THAT I HAVE NEVER I CHECK OUT
THE REVEWERS ON IT IT HELPS ME :thumbup1:

[bbarton713]

EVERY TIME I WANT BUY SOMETHING NEW THAT I HAVE NEVER I CHECK OUT
THE REVEWERS ON IT IT HELPS ME :thumbup1:

:lol::lol::lol:

[LarryAndro]

I have read before about that Baby Boomers search for authoritative information on products, and guys in their 20s ask their friends. Significant? True? Who knows! But, if true, it might be significant to this conversation.

[SiBurning]

I have read before about that Baby Boomers search for authoritative information on products, and guys in their 20s ask their friends. Significant? True? Who knows! But, if true, it might be significant to this conversation.
That runs a lot deeper than product information.

[Walker]

Yea reviews are a wate of time to me. I'll ask opinions and they can be helpful but i usually find out for myself

[Genie]

When the majority of people slam a product being reviewed, I stay away. If the average rating is in the high 80%'s I jump on it. Its been working so far. :)

[jgkeegan]

I disagree strongly.

First, the number of months a person has been a B&B member is in no way related to their relative newbieness to wet shaving.

Second, the opinions of those who are now when they are new are as valid as their opinions years later.

Third, to observe people making distinctions on the value of opinions based on the length of time of B&B membership is, to say the least, warped.

No offense intended; just one man's opinion.

--james


James, I respectfully disagree with every point you have listed here.

If they have been here a year, it means there is a good chance they have been wetshaving for a little while. No assurance in every case, but what is?

Secondly, an opinion of someone wetshaving for six weeks or less is their opinion, but they have very little to base it on in comparative reasoning. It is not reliable info for the most part.

Your third point I feel is answered in the first two points. I'm not warped for wanting information from someone whom I feel has a little better handle on a product COMPARED to the multitude of other choices.

I'll reiterate: Hopefully B&B will look seriously at newbie reviews.



I'll reiterate too. Wet shaving was here before B&B, believe it or not. The length of time a terson has been wet shaving is in no way related to the length of time they have participated in B&B.

Your proposal to censor new B&B members from posting reviews would remove from B&B something that is not very, very valuable. That value grows from the opinion of many, not just those who have been here for a long time.

You needn't read the reviews of people you judge to be new based on the length of their membership in B&B. But a proposal to censor their views from the reviews sections is very bad, in my opinion.

I like reading the views of someone who has been wet shaving for 6 weeks. Heck, I like reading the views of someone who has been doing it for 6 hours. What would justify your wish to remove that pleasure?

Let's agree to disagree and leave this one alone and trust in the decision makers to do the right thing.

--james

[DFrancis]

The B&B review system is terribly flawed- it's done by humans.:lol:

And here's me thinking we were all robots.

I love the reviews and have scoured them to find things that may or may not work for me. Some members here write fantastic reviews and have caused me to buy products i may not have otherwise (I'm looking at you Marco :biggrin1:)

[Royall Lyme]

The reviews give some insight as to what the product is like. In fact one of my favorite things to do on the B&B is read the reviews! Before I buy any soap or cream I start my research with the B&B reviews. Generally if the masses say a product is bad...I tend to stay away from it....especially if laying down big bucks plus shipping.

[Azza]

I look at the reviews before every purchase.

Since it has been raised, I think a common sense approach is necessary. Sometimes a new wetshaver wants to get in on the action and give his opinion on a product, I found a few guys mention in their reviews that they are new. As long as the inexperienced guys mention they are new i'm ok. Length of time here almost guarantees one thing ... that the shaver has at least one year under his or her belt.

I think that all blade reviews should state what razor it was used in, that would help a lot. I'm guilty of not including this info.

- Aaron

[gull]

I like reading the review section.

Soaps and cream reviews are usually spot on I think. I might not care for a particular scent or something, but usually if a lot of people think it's good, then it's good.

IMHO, razor blade reviews are worthless. I don't care if a thousand people hate or love a particular brand, that still doesn't mean anything to me. I saw how almost everyone hates the 7AM blades, but when I tried them, they were fine!

[Greyfox]

Reviews are only helpful to me if they come from someone with whom I share similiar likes/dislikes. There are a handful of folks on a couple of shaving forums whose opinion I value highly. The rest I ignore.

[mblakele]

Great point. Someone recently contacted me to withdraw a review he made three years ago, as he now realizes that he was incorrect in his published assessment.

That's why I'm waiting another two years before I write any reviews.

[California Cajun]

Hi Gents,

As much as I love this hobby and reading the forums, I'm starting to believe that product reviews aren't as reliable as you would think. I think they should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

The fact is, we all have different tastes and preferences, different faces and beards, different water supplies, live all around the globe. Added to that, brushes vary so much between batches in terms of loft, knot shape, and hair quality. I speak from experience of various Rooney and Simpsons brushes I've owned. Not to mention the reformulation of soap ingredients.

Added to that the hype that surrounds certain products and personal bias for certain brands/ingredients, makes it all even less reliable.

Discuss! :wink2:

John

I think they're helpful. They are like movie reviews. I could care less what a critic thinks of it. I want to know what the consumer thinks of it, because I'm more likely to have that opinion.

When I read several reviews on a product it gives me as reliable a basis as I think I can get on how I would like it. I can sift through and come up with an educated guess as to how it would work for me.

[talibeard]

I love the review section and don't think it is a waste of time unless you are seeking for universal truth. Positive reviews can keep me away from certain products just as much as negative ones can make me very curious. When well written (comparisons!) a lot more information can be found than just an opinion. It is all about interpretation and I think it is one of the most interesting parts of B&B. Not much interaction but a lot of info!

The only thing of no use IMO is the average score of a product; that is just a popularity poll.

[mdevine]

I find the reviews useful but look for names of members I know. I do wish that the post count and join date of the reviewer was listed like it is with posts in other areas. I find myself searching for this information when assessing a review. I find it more important to know with reviews than any other topic.

Mike

[diverdoug]

I would like to see B&B instill at least a 12-month membership criteria before being able to post reviews. We've all been newbies at one point, so I can say this without condescension: Inexperienced shaver reviews are worse than no review.

Just because someone has not been on B&B for a year does not mean they are a noob to shaving, and have nothing to offer in a reveiw. I joined B&B in October, but started DE shaving in 1976 (albeit with a recent hiatus). Fortunately, I am in a situation where if I see a shaving product I would like to try, I can buy it and try it, and and have about 30 creams that I am rotating through currently. I have 9 DE's and 9 brushes that I am rotating through. I admit to being jaded with respect to blade selection and only use Feathers with an occasonal SE departure with a GEM. I am not saying that I am any type of authority or overly knowledgible in any arena of shaving, but I do try a lot of products, and have enough experience to formulate a cogent opinion. If you personaly distrust a reveiw by someone who joined B&B less than a year ago, why don't you just take the responsibility of checking the reviewers join date yourself (instead of trying to limit other board members access to a potentially helpful review)?

[jgkeegan]

Just because someone has not been on B&B for a year does not mean they are a noob to shaving, and have nothing to offer in a reveiw. I joined B&B in October, but started DE shaving in 1976 (albeit with a recent hiatus). Fortunately, I am in a situation where if I see a shaving product I would like to try, I can buy it and try it, and and have about 30 creams that I am rotating through currently. I have 9 DE's and 9 brushes that I am rotating through. I admit to being jaded with respect to blade selection and only use Feathers with an occasonal SE departure with a GEM. I am not saying that I am any type of authority or overly knowledgible in any arena of shaving, but I do try a lot of products, and have enough experience to formulate a cogent opinion. If you personaly distrust a reveiw by someone who joined B&B less than a year ago, why don't you just take the responsibility of checking the reviewers join date yourself (instead of trying to limit other board members access to a potentially helpful review)?


Indeed!! Bravo. Nicely said.

--James.

[jgkeegan]

I find the reviews useful but look for names of members I know. I do wish that the post count and join date of the reviewer was listed like it is with posts in other areas. I find myself searching for this information when assessing a review. I find it more important to know with reviews than any other topic.

Mike


And here I always thought a review should be based on its content. :ohmy::ohmy:

--james

[Laney1566]

Just because someone has not been on B&B for a year does not mean they are a noob to shaving, and have nothing to offer in a reveiw. I joined B&B in October, but started DE shaving in 1976 (albeit with a recent hiatus). Fortunately, I am in a situation where if I see a shaving product I would like to try, I can buy it and try it, and and have about 30 creams that I am rotating through currently. I have 9 DE's and 9 brushes that I am rotating through. I admit to being jaded with respect to blade selection and only use Feathers with an occasonal SE departure with a GEM. I am not saying that I am any type of authority or overly knowledgible in any arena of shaving, but I do try a lot of products, and have enough experience to formulate a cogent opinion. If you personaly distrust a reveiw by someone who joined B&B less than a year ago, why don't you just take the responsibility of checking the reviewers join date yourself (instead of trying to limit other board members access to a potentially helpful review)?

Thanks for that post. If you looked at my post count you would think I still had peach fuzz for a beard. Fact is I have been wet shaving for 30 years. :thumbup1:

[jgkeegan]

Just because someone has not been on B&B for a year does not mean they are a noob to shaving, and have nothing to offer in a reveiw. I joined B&B in October, but started DE shaving in 1976 (albeit with a recent hiatus). Fortunately, I am in a situation where if I see a shaving product I would like to try, I can buy it and try it, and and have about 30 creams that I am rotating through currently. I have 9 DE's and 9 brushes that I am rotating through. I admit to being jaded with respect to blade selection and only use Feathers with an occasonal SE departure with a GEM. I am not saying that I am any type of authority or overly knowledgible in any arena of shaving, but I do try a lot of products, and have enough experience to formulate a cogent opinion. If you personaly distrust a reveiw by someone who joined B&B less than a year ago, why don't you just take the responsibility of checking the reviewers join date yourself (instead of trying to limit other board members access to a potentially helpful review)?


Thanks for that post. If you looked at my post count you would think I still had peach fuzz for a beard. Fact is I have been wet shaving for 30 years. :thumbup1:


I think my photo gives a hint at my age. i have been wet shaving for most of 50 years.

I have certainly learned much since i discovered B&B though.

--james

[bbarton713]

I think my photo gives a hint at my age. i have been wet shaving for most of 50 years.

I have certainly learned much since i discovered B&B though.

--james

I've got razors older than you! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Laney1566]

I think my photo gives a hint at my age. i have been wet shaving for most of 50 years.

I have certainly learned much since i discovered B&B though.

--james

:ouch1:

[Go West Young Man]

The good thing here is that you can judge a reviewers credentials for yourself.
The review from the guy who's obviously used a lot of products and knows what he's talking about is given a lot more credence than the newbie raving about his first ever soap.

[jgkeegan]

I've got razors older than you! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yeah, but those old razors came from me!!!!:laugh:

Plus, "your opinion is worthless as you haven't been on B&B long enough.":lol::lol::lol::lol:

--james

[bbarton713]

Yeah, but those old razors came from me!!!!:laugh:

Plus, "your opinion is worthless as you haven't been on B&B long enough.":lol::lol::lol::lol:

--james

If only you had kept your baseball cards. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[jgkeegan]

If only you had kept your baseball cards. :lol: :lol: :lol:


...and maintained my leadership of the gang stealing daniel boone hats.
:gun_bandana::gun_bandana::gun_bandana:

[mdevine]

And here I always thought a review should be based on its content. :ohmy::ohmy:

--james

No offense meant James, but I feel I have the right to base my opinion of a review on those criteria that make me the most confident. The quality of a review is partly based on who writes it. The more information I have about the writer, the more I trust what I read. This doesn't only apply to ratings of shaving gear.

[jgkeegan]

No offense meant James, but I feel I have the right to base my opinion of a review on those criteria that make me the most confident. The quality of a review is partly based on who writes it. The more information I have about the writer, the more I trust what I read. This doesn't only apply to ratings of shaving gear.


No offense taken. I can understand clearly what you said here and wouldn't argue with it. My argument is with the idea of equating wet shaving knowledge and experience with length of time in B&B or the ever-present post count. I view those last two items as irrelevant to the poster's knowledge and/or wet shaving experience.

--james

[Crixus]

My argument is with the idea of equating wet shaving knowledge and experience with length of time in B&B or the ever-present post count. I view those last two items as irrelevant to the poster's knowledge and/or wet shaving experience.

--jamesFor every person like you and Diver that have wetshaving experience before coming to B&B, I'd wager there are at least 50 that don't. It seems like B&B is getting nearly a thousand new members a month lately. The 12-month criteria would help assure that posters would have a little experience. Will it keep a couple of experienced new members from posting reviews for a short period. Of course. But it will keep lots of spanking new shavers from assigning rating points to software and hardware when they may not have really learned some basic and intermediate skills.

[jgkeegan]

My argument is with the idea of equating wet shaving knowledge and experience with length of time in B&B or the ever-present post count. I view those last two items as irrelevant to the poster's knowledge and/or wet shaving experience.

--james


For every person like you and Diver that have wetshaving experience before coming to B&B, I'd wager there are at least 50 that don't. It seems like B&B is getting nearly a thousand new members a month lately. The 12-month criteria would help assure that posters would have a little experience. Will it keep a couple of experienced new members from posting reviews for a short period. Of course. But it will keep lots of spanking new shavers from assigning rating points to software and hardware when they may not have really learned some basic and intermediate skills.


First, I think you are wrong. There is no data whatsoever to support your allegation that people new to B&B are new to wet shaving.

And even if you aren't wrong, so what?

You have already read posts from several saying they like to read reviews regardless of the length of time someone has been a B&B member.

How do YOU justify taking that away from them? You didn't respond to that question when I asked you in a previous post?

Should not members be free to read the opinions of those they elect to read? What can justify the kind of censorship you have suggested repeatedly?

Can't you just skip the authors you dislike for whatever reason and allow others that same freedom?

As, I said in an earlier post, let's agree to disagree here.

--james

[Slartibartfast]

12 months may be a little excessive.
But some type of a waiting period so people around the forum know more about the reviewer does not seem like a bad thing....

[diverdoug]

[QUOTE=Crixus;2734838] The 12-month criteria would help assure that posters would have a little experience. Will it keep a couple of experienced new members from posting reviews for a short period. /QUOTE]

I agree with Mr. Keegan that you might consider just ignoring the reviews that you do not deem worthy, and let the rest of us enjoy sharing our experiences. That is not why I am doing this particular post though. This post is to ask Crixus to please TRULY appreciate that he is in a state of health where he feels 12 months is a short period of time. I know this is off topic, but a year is nearly a lifetime for some.:closedeye

[gearchow]

So far this has been a nice Gentlemanly discussion, but I can easily see it slipping off the tracks. Please, let's continue to keep the discussion friendly as it has been.

:thumbup1:

-jim

[jgkeegan]

So far this has been a nice Gentlemanly discussion, but I can easily see it slipping off the tracks. Please, let's continue to keep the discussion friendly as it has been.

:thumbup1:

-jim


I agree. Actually, I think that the nature of the discussions answers the basic question asked in the thread quite clearly. :001_rolle:001_rolle:blushing:

--james

[Go West Young Man]

First, I think you are wrong. There is no data whatsoever to support your allegation that people new to B&B are new to wet shaving.



Based on the Hall of Fame posts, seems to me that the large majority of new B+Bers were using aerosol foams/gels before starting up here.

The problem isn't that new user isn't qualified to review, it's that a lot of new B+Bers post raving reviews of the first wetshaving products they've ever used. "I just used my first puck of VDH and got the best shave of my life!!! 10/10 !!!!1!1!" isn't a helpful review for people who are looking to read a considered analysis of the strengths/weaknesses of the soap.

[jgkeegan]

Based on the Hall of Fame posts, seems to me that the large majority of new B+Bers were using aerosol foams/gels before starting up here.


What is the percentage of new people who post to the Hall of Fame? Less that, your "large majority" is not statistically meaningful.

--james

[diverdoug]

If the 1 year limit were in place, gearchow our forum steward, would not qualify to reveiw a product!

[jgkeegan]

If the 1 year limit were in place, Gearchow our forum steward, would not qualify to reveiw a product!

:oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops:
:a29:

----james

[Crixus]

If the 1 year limit were in place, gearchow our forum steward, would not qualify to reveiw a product!A minor restriction I'm sure he would gladly accept. Apples and oranges, anyway, for to me a steward is a trusted housekeeper, not a subject matter specialist.

[brothers]

In my opinion, having read hundreds of reviews, and posted a few, I've come to have a feel for objectivity, and I am pretty cautious about raves or condemnations, but I do want to see what the reviewer has to say. I like facts, and I disregard opinions, particularly about fragrances. I like descriptions, but I disregard, and in my reviews I try to avoid adjectives and hyperbole.

[diverdoug]

Crixus, I don't think that a review needs to be done only by a subject matter specialist. Short of moderating mean-spirited inappropriate comments, or protecting members from cheats, I am glad that I have seen censorship of ideas on this forum usually kept to a minimum (with a few exceptions). I simply don't understand why you want to keep others from seeing the reveiws that you don't think are worthy? If you don't like them, why don't YOU just disregard them, instead of proposing censorship? You have been asked this question numerous times without an answer. Wouldn't you rather be able to choose, instead of having someone else choose for you?

[Crixus]

If you don't like them, why don't YOU just disregard them, insteead of imposing censorship? You have been asked this question numerous times without an answer.I'm certainly posting a lot for not answering numerous times, but here goes:

The people that spend hours and hours in the review section are mostly the new members. A new member, fresh from Barbasol and Mach 3s, or possibly still haven't taken the plunge to our brand of wetshaving yet. All that stuff in the Review Section is a new, undiscovered world for them. THEY very possibly do not have the knowledge to separate the wheat from the chaff. They don't have the knowledge to know what is a realistic CONTENT review and what is not.

To have RELATIVELY new wetshavers, novices themselves, doing the review posting, we run the real risk of the blind leading the blind. Yes, I can certainly pick and choose the reviews I feel are most helpful to me, and as other members have stated, many only "use" the reviews of posters they are familiar with.

It is mostly brand new shavers that rely heavily on those reviews. Many of us might enjoy them, but we have been around long enough to somewhat handily pick and choose. The new folks mostly lack the wetshaving knowledge to do that. So, when 6-week member Peter says XYZ brand of soap is just too dry, doesn't give glide, cushion, lube, etc.--yet many of us know different. The brand new guy saving his money to get a real wetshaving soap probably doesn't know that the reviewer wasn't using enough water in the lather. So he now avoids the soap forever.

So it's not me I'm concerned about. I would just like to see B&B possibly curtail a little of the new guiding the newer. And I don't call it censorship, or draconian in nature. You put a little time in before you make official reviews. That doesn't stop anybody from posting their experiences in the cream forum, soap forum, etc. I'm not calling for a gag order. Just to increase the credibility of our review section for the shavers that need it the most. The guys that are putting their initial den pieces together.

[diverdoug]

Thanks for the well measured resopnse. If the concern is for noobs being led astray, I was trying to think af a way to have our cake and eat it too. Perhaps keep the limit of 50 posts before reveiw, but have the reveiw sections have a "disclaimer" explaining potential pitfalls to noobs of putting too much faith in the reveiws (could also be part of the new shaver forum).

[Laney1566]

Hi Gents,

As much as I love this hobby and reading the forums, I'm starting to believe that product reviews aren't as reliable as you would think. I think they should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

The fact is, we all have different tastes and preferences, different faces and beards, different water supplies, live all around the globe. Added to that, brushes vary so much between batches in terms of loft, knot shape, and hair quality. I speak from experience of various Rooney and Simpsons brushes I've owned. Not to mention the reformulation of soap ingredients.

Added to that the hype that surrounds certain products and personal bias for certain brands/ingredients, makes it all even less reliable.

Discuss! :wink2:

John

No reviews are not a waste of time........
But this thread sure has become a big fat one!!!!
See what you did!!! :lol::lol::lol:

[jgkeegan]

Crixus, I don't think that a review needs to be done only by a subject matter specialist. Short of moderating mean-spirited inappropriate comments, or protecting members from cheats, I am glad that I have seen censorship of ideas on this forum usually kept to a minimum (with a few exceptions). I simply don't understand why you want to keep others from seeing the reveiws that you don't think are worthy? If you don't like them, why don't YOU just disregard them, instead of proposing censorship? You have been asked this question numerous times without an answer. Wouldn't you rather be able to choose, instead of having someone else choose for you?


I'm certainly posting a lot for not answering numerous times, but here goes:

The people that spend hours and hours in the review section are mostly the new members. A new member, fresh from Barbasol and Mach 3s, or possibly still haven't taken the plunge to our brand of wetshaving yet. All that stuff in the Review Section is a new, undiscovered world for them. THEY very possibly do not have the knowledge to separate the wheat from the chaff. They don't have the knowledge to know what is a realistic CONTENT review and what is not.

To have RELATIVELY new wetshavers, novices themselves, doing the review posting, we run the real risk of the blind leading the blind. Yes, I can certainly pick and choose the reviews I feel are most helpful to me, and as other members have stated, many only "use" the reviews of posters they are familiar with.

It is mostly brand new shavers that rely heavily on those reviews. Many of us might enjoy them, but we have been around long enough to somewhat handily pick and choose. The new folks mostly lack the wetshaving knowledge to do that. So, when 6-week member Peter says XYZ brand of soap is just too dry, doesn't give glide, cushion, lube, etc.--yet many of us know different. The brand new guy saving his money to get a real wetshaving soap probably doesn't know that the reviewer wasn't using enough water in the lather. So he now avoids the soap forever.

So it's not me I'm concerned about. I would just like to see B&B possibly curtail a little of the new guiding the newer. And I don't call it censorship, or draconian in nature. You put a little time in before you make official reviews. That doesn't stop anybody from posting their experiences in the cream forum, soap forum, etc. I'm not calling for a gag order. Just to increase the credibility of our review section for the shavers that need it the most. The guys that are putting their initial den pieces together.


As far as I can see,you are STILL not answering the question which was asked at least four times.

What gives YOU the right to decide for others what they can read, particularly after you have repeatedly seen that others strongly disagree with you.

No one is forcing you to read or ignore anything. Yet you willingly and repeatedly assert that you know what is right for others to see.

As for increasing the credibility of B&B's review section, no one but you has claimed that anything wasn't credible much less demonstrated it.

--james

[Crixus]

As far as I can see,you are STILL not answering the question which was asked at least four times.

What gives YOU the right to decide for others what they can read, particularly after you have repeatedly seen that others strongly disagree with you.

No one is forcing you to read or ignore anything. Yet you willingly and repeatedly assert that you know what is right for others to see.

As for increasing the credibility of B&B's review section, no one but you has claimed that anything wasn't credible much less demonstrated it.

--jamesYou are completely out of line with this entire statement. It's like you're not even reading my posts. They don't address my post at all. You're coming off like an angry old man.

[Go West Young Man]

Perhaps keep the limit of 50 posts before reveiw, but have the reveiw sections have a "disclaimer" explaining potential pitfalls to noobs of putting too much faith in the reveiws (could also be part of the new shaver forum).

Similar to the stickie at the top of every review section?
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/announcement.php?f=38&a=7

[bbarton713]

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
— C.S. Lewis

Just to clarify, this post was directed at the desire to change the existing policies and make them more limiting in terms of who could post a review or not.

I don't consider the existing policies tyrannical and think that Ouch said it best when he said, "If there is any place where men are able to decide things for themselves, it's here." :badger::a14:

[jgkeegan]

As far as I can see,you are STILL not answering the question which was asked at least four times.

What gives YOU the right to decide for others what they can read, particularly after you have repeatedly seen that others strongly disagree with you.

No one is forcing you to read or ignore anything. Yet you willingly and repeatedly assert that you know what is right for others to see.

As for increasing the credibility of B&B's review section, no one but you has claimed that anything wasn't credible much less demonstrated it.

--james


You are completely out of line with this entire statement. It's like you're not even reading my posts. They don't address my post at all. You're coming off like an angry old man.


One of us is, which was predictable and one of the reasons i repeatedly suggested that we agree to disagree. You seem to have handled that like you handled the unanswered question:

"What gives YOU the right to decide for others what they can read?"


Let's you and I drop this now.

[blantyre]

I find the reviews to be very useful. I have read many of them and written several as well. The YMMV applies twice since the reviewer's biases come in and individual's product reactions vary. I know reviewers whose judgment I agree with and other who I don't so I generally read a review with this in mind. Also, I am willing to blind buy to some extent and simply pass it along on BST if it really doesn't work for me.

Bottom line, the reviews are useful and a valuable resource. Use them for what they are - opinions from informed users.

[GDCarrington]

This website is a large review / opinion pit. The review section is one small cross section which serves a very useful purpose, especially to me. I enjoy finding out what someone else thinks about a product sometimes more than my own opinion, because I may have missed some or many things in my trials. Also, it is interesting to find out how someone else approaches a product to arrive at usefulness for them.

If you feel that you are not well served by the reviews, then don't use them. If you feel that you are well served by the reviews, then use them.
What you will make of it is up to you, not the reviewer!

[garyg]

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
— C.S. Lewis

Wonderfully on point! My vote is to decide for myself rather than be fed only those truths that x number of posts or y number of months may engender. I just remember that advice obtained on the internet is often worth just about exactly what you pay for it ...

[diverdoug]

Similar to the stickie at the top of every review section?
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/announcement.php?f=38&a=7
Yeah, I know, but I was just doing my best to try and get along & play nice in the sandbox:laugh:
I did appreciate Crixus taking the time to explain the reasoning behind his view (even though I don't agree with it).
I still think the 50 post limit is more than enough of a requirement to reveiw something. My libertarian DNA causes my hackles to rise at the mere scent of censorship. I think that the concern that noobs will be led astray if reveiwers are not allowed to post untill they have been B&B members for a year is off the mark, and underestimates the intelligence of someone who is trusted to drag a sharp implement across their throat.

[ouch]

Your proposal to censor new B&B members from posting reviews would remove from B&B something that is not very, very valuable. That value grows from the opinion of many, not just those who have been here for a long time.

You needn't read the reviews of people you judge to be new based on the length of their membership in B&B. But a proposal to censor their views from the reviews sections is very bad, in my opinion.

--james

We already do.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/announcement.php?f=38&a=7

I find the use of the word "censor" to describe this policy to be tiresome.

[jgkeegan]

We already do.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/announcement.php?f=38&a=7

I find the use of the word "censor" to describe this policy to be tiresome.


I'm surprised you misread my statement and the suggestion it was directed towards. To clarify, it certainly was not the current B&B policy.

Thanks for raising the curent policy. It seems to fit the perceived need.

--james

[bbarton713]

We already do.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/announcement.php?f=38&a=7

I find the use of the word "censor" to describe this policy to be tiresome.

I find running on a full stomach to be tiresome. :-)

[GDCarrington]

I find running on a full stomach to be tiresome. :-)

I find that running, whether my stomach is full or empty, to be tiresome. :laugh:

[ouch]

I'm surprised you misread my statement and the suggestion it was directed towards. To clarify, it certainly was not the current B&B policy.

Thanks for raising the curent policy. It seems to fit the perceived need.

--james

We're not trying to stifle any opinions, other than those of blatant shills and the overly enthusiatic newbie. No discussion currently exists regarding expanding the requirements for posting reviews.

If there is any place where men are able to decide things for themselves, it's here.

[jgkeegan]

We're not trying to stifle any opinions, other than those of blatant shills and the overly enthusiatic newbie.

If there is any place where men are able to decide things for themselves, it's here.


That's the point. You said it nicely. Thanks,

--james

[GDCarrington]

We're not trying to stifle any opinions, other than those of blatant shills and the overly enthusiatic newbie. No discussion currently exists regarding expanding the requirements for posting reviews.

If there is any place where men are able to decide things for themselves, it's here.

The policy is a good set of checks and balances as Ouch has stated to provide a more stable forum for all users. :thumbup1:

There is no tyranny here, but freedom to use or ignore each forum that is available to members. :thumbup1:

[diverdoug]

I like OUCH a lot more since he changed his avatar to a cute cartoon chick from from the Peter Griffin avatar. He seems so much more approachable :) The cryptic Chinese characrers still creep me out a bit still though!

[Walker]

I like OUCH a lot more since he changed his avarar to a cute cartoon chick from from the Peter Griffin avatar. He seems so much more approachable :) The cryptic Chinese characrers still creep me out a bit still though!

That's a chick? I thought it was a dude :lol:

[diverdoug]

That's a chick? I thought it was a dude :lol:
That avatar deff. has boobs Dude!:laugh:

[Walker]

That avatar deff. has boobs Dude!:laugh:

Haha hard to tell on this iphone :blushing:

[Azza]

Def a chick.

- Aaron

[Wendy]

I love reviews, it only helps me better my product. Thanks to all who spend the time to review any product mine or otherwise. :thumbup: I take them all to heart.

[jgkeegan]

I like OUCH a lot more since he changed his avatar to a cute cartoon chick from from the Peter Griffin avatar. He seems so much more approachable :) The cryptic Chinese characrers still creep me out a bit still though!


the cryptic Chinese, I am told, is incorrect usage but means something like "badger and blade."
:thumbup::thumbup:

--james