Gentleman's Best, B&B and Unfulfilled Orders...

[joel]

Hi All,
This is without hesitation the hardest post i've had to make here on B&B, but i'll be direct and to the point. Ray, the proprietor of the Gentleman's Best (http://gentlemensbest.com/default.aspx) is no longer a member of this community, and will no longer be a "vendor" on B&B. As many of you know, Ray has had some major health issues as of late, piggybacking with other personal issues. Member's here have complained regarding their orders from GB having not been fulfilled, and have claimed to have sent razors and other items to him to have sharpened, repaired, etc several months ago and haven't received them back. Many folks here have also stated their attempts to contact Ray have gone unanswered and he has been unresponsive with regards to fulfilling orders, as well as returning members' property.

Several moderators have been in touch with Ray - offered to travel to his shop and assist him in fulfilling orders, etc - to which he has refused. Another moderator got in touch with him, and was told all orders (save for possibly one) have been caught up on, and shipped, however as of today (more than 1 week after this conversation took place) more than 5 individuals claim to have outstanding orders which have not been fulfilled, and several others claim that Ray has property of theirs (ranging from razors to wallets) which have not been returned to them. All of them however, claim he has not returned their communications to him. At this point, the only assumption we can draw is that it is no longer a function of him merely being sick, but that he may not have the merchandise or for some reason have the ability to execute these remaining orders, since we know he has the labor to execute the orders (since multiple moderators from B&B have offered their assistance/labor).

For the allegations above - which were filed by long standing, active members of our community, as a mod team, we're forced to take action against what we would classify as a "delinquent vendor." This was discussed at length by the mod team here at B&B, and it was the groups unanimous decision to treat this situation as we would any other vendor, which would be to remove Ray from Badger & Blade, and recommend to the community that all folks who have standing orders with Gentleman's Best which have not been delivered: contact paypal, their credit card companies and pursue whatever methods available to them by law to achieve restitution.

This is a crushing blow. Ray has done dozens of PIF's here on B&B, and spent countless hours ID'ing razors for folks, assisting newbies and otherwise being an upstanding member of the community. We wholeheartedly wish Ray the best, but most of all, we hope all members who have not received their orders, soon find restitution.

An additional related note to the community. As a result of this situation, as of today no moderator on B&B will be allowed to become a vendor/retailer (save for grandfathering in John of WestCoastShaving.) Should a moderator wish to provide products, services, etc to this community, they'll be required to step down as a moderator.

[Tha Baron]

It's a shame.

Have to admit that I had a nagging suspicion something was off here even after I got my refund. I saw that he had about 10 eBay sales go through around the end of November, which I thought was odd given the "missing orders".

Either way, glad to see that B&B took care of the situation.

[htownmmm]

Wow-sad news indeed.

I feel sorry for those whose orders were not fulfilled and also for the downfall of one of our own.


marty

[Mr. Scruffy]

This breaks my heart.

[ibrewbeer]

Wow, I truly hope everyone gets their belongings back, and at least shipment/refund of purchased goods

[Kevan]

How....odd. :huh: Not to mention unfortunate. I hope all the situations get resolved.

[mr. s]

It is nice to know that action has been taken, although obviously a last resort.
However, it is also unfortunate that many, myself included, were misled and put down for voicing our innocent concerns time and time again by mods, and others.

I suggest that mods do not play favourites in such matters in the future. Some of us are looking to lose hefty amounts. I imagine the mods that also offered to personally refund our loses will be changing their minds......

[joel]

It is nice to know that action has been taken, although obviously a last resort.
However, it is also unfortunate that many, myself included, were misled and put down for voicing our innocent concerns time and time again by mods, and others.

I suggest that mods do not play favourites in such matters in the future. Some of us are looking to lose hefty amounts. I imagine the mods that also offered to personally refund our loses will be changing their minds......

I understand your frustration, and your situation so your response neither comes as a surprise nor is seen in a negative light, but this would have been more helpful had it been positioned differently. You see, you make powerful statements and suggestions, without knowing all the facts, or understanding the entire situation.

To address your comments though - I am not aware of any members being knowingly misled by anyone on the mod team. You see, the entire mod team was misled and was told time and time again items were to be "sent out this week" or "there was a problem with the post office", items were "lost in the mail" etc - however one things for sure - multiple mods visited him in person and can confirm he was hospitalized and in a desperate fight for his life.

Why is this relevant? Well, this is step one in explaining to you why things did not progress as quickly as they might seem they should to you. You see, there are vendors (like the late Sue of Saint Charles Shave) who had spent literally thousands of hours (no exaggeration) helping folks on this forum, donating items for charity events, and providing outstanding customer service to customers for years... all the while blind, wheelchair bound and fighting terminal cancer. Compare that to some vendors who merely post the occasional "Here's our special of the month" and have shown no longstanding actions of good will, and clearly there's going to be a difference in how we're going to treat the two, not because of favoritism, but because of their place, impact, role and reputation within this community.

Put yourself in our shoes... we've known Ray for years. I don't say this in a negative or condescending way AT ALL - but realize, you've been a member here for barely over 1 month... all of which time Ray has been on the fritz. You've seen a mere sliver of Ray, yet we've seen the whole pie. He was a merit award winner here at B&B. Why? He was running fund raisers for charities here on B&B, doing copious amounts of PIF's, was spending countless hours toiling over helping folks, was restoring and sharpening razors for folks FOR FREE, and was otherwise being about as solid a guy as they come. There have been few individuals who have impacted this community in a more positive manner than Ray. Nearly every mod on the mod team had met him face to face, many of which spent considerable face to face time with him as a friend - and none of us had ever been given reason to distrust or otherwise question him.

Take the above into consideration understand, Ray had a massive life threatening heath issue, then another life threatening complication. While the guy is in a fight for his life, the last thing we'd allow to happen to him OR ANY OTHER RESPECTED VENDOR with an untarnished reputation (regardless of them being a mod or not) is to get beat up on the forums while they're incapacitated and near death. He told us he'd be out for a few weeks, and would be back to shipping orders shortly thereafter. It took a few weeks longer than expected (due to health complications) and there's no way at that point we'd have gone after him... or ANY other vendor. We can't expect the guy to ship orders in a hospital bed and we can't beat the guy up, or punish him (nor allow others to) when recovery takes longer than expected.

Another fact to consider, orders were sporadically being shipped out after he got out of the hospital and folks here had mentioned they were getting refunds and/or their orders shipped to them. When we were told there were post office complications and some of the packages were returned, there was no reason to question it. Once the rubber hit the road - it still took us a week and a half of waiting until we could verify the items had still yet to be received after they were "re-shipped" (PM any of the folks who mentioned they had outstanding orders with GB that had gone unfulfilled in this thread (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=181492&page=2) and they'll all tell you I was in contact with them all to see if they got their order) Now, I'm not going to mince words here - he was given more slack than the average joe... but adding up all the facts above and the timeline, we're talking about an extra week or two of good faith that was extended when there were "order mix-ups" and again - with a trickle of folks receiving orders and refunds (one fella posted in the shopping and deals thread on this a few days ago that he JUST received his order) there was no red light which would cause concern. This additional week or two extension wouldn't have affected the 30 day paypal limitation and wouldn't have disabled or made the process of attaining recompense any easier for those affected. One last thing to consider - once we let fly with a public statement, and remove an offender from the community, our leverage is immediately dissolved. We have merely one bullet, which must be used wisely - so when these situations unfold, we extend our leverage to the greatest effect to help attain restitution for our members, however once we've removed a vendor from the community, and/or allowed their reputation to be mortally damaged by members on the forum, their willingness and the potential benefit/value to make good on outstanding commitments/deliverables is nill.

While you may feel the comments which were frowned upon were "innocent" - asserting that someone may be dishonest, or a "shiester" while they're in a hospital bed, they're not. Had we allowed that discussion to continue, could you imagine how this situation could have unfolded if the end result were different? Also, the incentive to service individuals who are bashing you to bits dwindles quite fast, and the willingness to return to a community that allows you to be tarred and feathered whilst incapacitated is non-existent.

The bottom line is this - none of us would have expected this in a million years and we're all hurt. The closer the individual was to Ray, the greater the pain, but with that said, if god forbid something terrible were to happen to another one of our well known, respected and trusted vendors - we'd still stand by 'em, until we were able to compile the facts, understand the situation and make sure we were doing the right thing. Could you imagine owning your own business and not having any employees - having a stroke or a heart attack, then a week or two later being crucified have paypal and credit card companies all over you, and have your reputation dragged through the mud? We're a community here... we suport and care about one another... whether you're a vendor, a member or a mod - we haven't, wouldn't and won't let anyone here at B&B get kicked while they're down, at least - without good cause.

In the future, will we be more vigilant, and perhaps a little more cautious if a situation like this were to arise? Absolutely... but in the past when somewhat similar situations have come to fruition (which has been VERY few and far between), we've always had quick, concrete fact/data which has afforded us the luxury to take quick action. In this instance, we didn't.

RE: mods offering refunds, they were and are serious, however they made these comments on their own, without consulting Nick or I (and to be honest, I hadn't been following these threads and this situation closely so Nick and I didn't catch that until late last week) and we cannot allow this. B&B is a registered corporation, and we do not want to assume the liabilities of ANY vendor or give any indication that we can, will, might or could do so. If folks operating under the guise of B&B, associated with the corporation are making conciliatory payments to members for debts owed by vendors, we're inviting future claims and potential litigation. Mods have been asked as a personal favor to Nick and I to NOT make any payments to members on behalf of The Gentleman's Best, or ANY other vendor, and we've made it clear if they do so, we will promptly remove the offending moderator(s) from the community.

A miserable situation? Yes... but as owners of B&B - Nick and I are also responsible for protecting this community and sometimes that calls for making hard decisions. In this one, the mods who made these offers are embarrassed they're not allowed to make good on their claims, and members who would have accepted their offer will be unable to do so, and as a result, upset - so this is a decision which leaves both mods and members upset, so i'm getting hit on both sides here, but it's unavoidable.

This is a problem/issue which exists between The Gentleman's Best and its customers, and should and will stay that way. As a community, all we can do is warn members, disallow the offending party to come back to the community, and support our members in any way we can, to help them receive recompense.

I, like many here are hurt by what's happened and deeply troubled by the events which have unfolded. Should you have any questions, or should the above not satiate you (same goes for any other member) please contact me and we'll hash it out over the telephone. You, along with every other member of B&B are of the utmost importance to us, and the last thing I'd want to happen is for you to be left feeling like you got a raw deal, were treated unfairly, or this situation wasn't dealt with properly - but at the end of the day, while we may have been able to brute force the issue to the same result a week or so ago (which would have been the quickest possible resolution), the end result and the final effect would have been the same...

[Jethro1984]

I have been following this thread closely and have read through one of the other threads as well. I must say I did not know Ray, nor did I ever do any business with him, so I am saying this as an impartial third party. After reading a great deal of this material, I personally feel as though Joel and the Mod team did their absolute best to resolve amicably a very difficult situation. I understand what Joel is saying above and again, while I am not involved in this issue financially or property wise, I would certainly appreciate the benefit of the doubt as I feel was offered to Ray in this situation.

Many of us say regularly that we love the community we have here...well, community is a lot like marraige; it is around through good times and bad. And while I think 99.9% of the time we share here is excellent; in a community as large as this, things are bound to happen from time to time. And, the mark of strong community leaders is the ability to stay objective and professional in any situation. Although the outcome was less than desirable for all involved, I feel they certainly met the charge of staying as professional as possible.

Overall, I feel for everyone involved in this, it is an extremely unfortunate situation. As a community, however, we will band together and heal going forward.

[nicknbleeding]

It is sad to hear about this. I had the same issuses with Ray but live 40 min away so i was able to drive there and pick up my razor. 2nd batch he had for 15 weeks honed only one maybe 2.
I will say that if someone did send him anything. I would highly doubt that he doesnt have it. Im sure it is in his store. I get the feeling he is distracted or not motivated to complete the orders. I do wish everyone the best in getting their items back. Dont give up on getting your items. Maybe a friend of Ray can travel to his store to retrieve them.

[Bertilak]

Joel,

It is easy to take B&B for granted. Reading about this situation and how it was dealt with makes one step back and appreciate the work, dedication, and hard choices that go into making B&B the premier place that it is. Thanks for that.

It is also easy to take vendors for granted. My only knowledge of Ray is occasionally running across a post of his here on B&B. From that I could see he was well respected and deserving of that respect. I am sorry to hear of his troubles. I wish him the best.

I also hope his "stranded" customers are able to resolve their situations.

[BlackAngus]

I had a situation with this vendor a few months ago...this isn't really new. I ordered a couple of scales in early September, and waited three weeks. No response from multiple inquiries through email, paypal dispute and even through the messaging system here. I knew he was a well-respected member here, so I was willing to give some leeway. The breaking point came when I finally received a single email from him, stating that the website states that scales can take several weeks to produce. I knew it didn't say that when I ordered, so I found a cached copy of the page from several days AFTER I ordered, and indeed that warning was not there...it was added after I complained. That to me was the straw that broke the camel's back, and I escalated my dispute to a claim with Paypal. Ten days later I had my money back. I hated to do it, knowing how he was regarded here, and I didn't mention it here for fear that something exactly like this was happening...Ray was sick or otherwise unable to fulfill his orders due to circumstances beyond his control. But I felt like I had been deceived by the adding of that disclaimer after the fact, so I finally filed a claim. I would recommend anyone who has an outstanding order to file a claim immediately.

[mr. s]

Joel, I appreciate your explanation.

[TonyH]

Joel, I appreciate your explanation.

I agree. Many times these situations arise with no info given. I had a bad experience with Ray myself last year, regarding the Carnival of Smiles. He was utterly classless in that situation, but I kept it to myself out of fear of retribution.

Those things aside, I hope his health improves, and that he makes a full recovery.

B&B will ultimately be better for this.

[drewmac]

Three emails, paypal dispute, and now a paypal claim as a result of a product ordered in November. Hopefully I can get this resolved.

[Greyfox]

Very sad situation indeed.

[CapnPanther]

Situation is unfortunate for all involved and I hope it's resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

I placed an order as part of this offering. The next day, I got an e-mail from Ray apologizing that the order had been cancelled because an item comprising most of the order value was OOS. Ray indicated that my money would be refunded and that he'd honor the discount on my next order. Sure enough, the money was back in my PayPal account the same day.

From my limited perspective, the order couldn't have been handled any better considering the circumstances of which I was aware of at the time, and moreso of which I learned of later.

Guess I should consider myself lucky.

[global_dev]

Joel, spectacular communication, thanks for the info and the follow-up.

there are still some things on my mind about this..

as a vendor, GB had a non-existent CONOPS plan. This should be a lesson to all small business owners.

as a board community, some the mods and some members really made me feel like the bad guy. i have about 1/2 a Grand currently sitting in GB's coffers. I never expected B&B to compensate nor even offer, but next time i think some more "gentlemanly" controversial thread mod response posts would be much appreciated.

thanks for a great board that i thoroughly enjoy.

[Drybonz]

as a board community, some the mods and some members really made me feel like the bad guy.

I saw this too, in another thread, and felt bad for global_dev for having to take heat from people just for making some inquiries.

I'm relatively new around here, and as I have been reading up on this I went to Ray's website and watched a couple of the news videos about him and his store. He seems like a really neat guy, and this whole thing is really sad. I don't know what health problems he is dealing with, but I wish him the best.

Ultimately, it doesn't seem like there could really be any good outcome here. Reading over this thread, I feel like B&B has taken some difficult steps to protect it's community even though it required making difficult decisions involving a friend to many of the staff... and I appreciate this aspect.

I hope that any hard feelings between guys like global_dev and the staff and community members that may have been harsh on him can be mended as well.

This situation, again, even for a relative outsider, like myself, is tough to hear about, and I hope everything turns out as well as it can. I hope Ray is in better health.

[Loner16]

I find all this very sad.

I had a problem with an unscrupulous member (not a vendor, although he is one now at other places), and Ray stepped up to help me out. He couldn't get the situation resolved, and the offending member was banned, but he still did some good things for me on a personal level to ease the loss.

I look at this situation in terms of.. "There, but for the grace of God, go I..."

Serious and debilitating health problems can strike any of us at any time, and without warning. If each of us were in Ray's position, would we be risking our very lives to attend to today, something that can be attended to tomorrow.

Ray shipped my order once product came in, so maybe I can look at things differently. I'm not trying to minimize anyone's predicament... It's just a sad situation all around.

I know from past experience that Ray is an honorable person. All I can say, is that I hope his health returns, and everyone gets the products and services they contracted for. I could not envision Ray having it any other way...

[global_dev]

I look at this situation in terms of.. "There, but for the grace of God, go I..."


vendor CONOPS fills this need for vendors with contracts.
and bad luck does not fully describe the whole of this situation...

GB could have provided some post tracking numbers to track parcels, but opted not to, which could have alleviated some issues.

i thing fubar better describes the whole of it.

vendors take note, have a plan...

[joel]

I had a situation with this vendor a few months ago...this isn't really new. I ordered a couple of scales in early September, and waited three weeks. No response from multiple inquiries through email, paypal dispute and even through the messaging system here. I knew he was a well-respected member here, so I was willing to give some leeway. The breaking point came when I finally received a single email from him, stating that the website states that scales can take several weeks to produce. I knew it didn't say that when I ordered, so I found a cached copy of the page from several days AFTER I ordered, and indeed that warning was not there...it was added after I complained. That to me was the straw that broke the camel's back, and I escalated my dispute to a claim with Paypal. Ten days later I had my money back. I hated to do it, knowing how he was regarded here, and I didn't mention it here for fear that something exactly like this was happening...Ray was sick or otherwise unable to fulfill his orders due to circumstances beyond his control. But I felt like I had been deceived by the adding of that disclaimer after the fact, so I finally filed a claim. I would recommend anyone who has an outstanding order to file a claim immediately.

Please, in the future - bring any issue like that to the mod teams attention - regardless of who the vendor is. If you're not comfortable approaching any specific mods, would like to remain anonymous, or just have a preference to come to me directly, please do so. We try not to get involved in "individual" situations - but if there are multiple members who are involved in a dispute with a vendor, or who are not receiving ample services or responses, what we can/will/have done for members, and will continue to do, is contact the vendor, use our leverage, and support the group in making their claims public if quick and reasonable actions aren't taken by the vendor. To our knowledge, situations like the one you outlined had been kept private, yet had we been aware, this situation likely would have come to resolution much quicker.

Again - please don't contact me if a vendor charged you too much shipping :wink: but if you have a critical issue with an order and it has gone unfulfilled by a vendor, or a vendor has done something you feel is ungentlemanly, unjust or deceitful and as a result should be distrusted or watched closely - please do not hesitate to contact me directly (PM preferred) with the proviso that we're not private investigators, and will not get in between a vendor and their client on an individual issue (a he said she said), but if there are multiple issues (a trend/pattern) and/or a critical ungentlemanly act, contact us. My commitment to you is that when/if we're contacted, we'll take what you say to heart, and either alert the mod team and we'll all be on "watch" for additional similar activity from said vendor, and if necessary and required, we'll step in to protect the community from further offenses and use our leverage to the best of our ability to help all parties come to an equitable conclusion.

In B&B's 5+ year history, issues like this have only arisen a select few times, and it's our goal to keep it that way.

[Loner16]

vendor CONOPS fills this need for vendors with contracts.
and bad luck does not fully describe the whole of this situation...

GB could have provided some post tracking numbers to track parcels, but opted not to, which could have alleviated some issues.

i thing fubar better describes the whole of it.

vendors take note, have a plan...

I'm, not up on the latest acronyms or buzzwords, so I have no idea what you're talking about...

My only hope, and it is a sincere one, is that no one else here is put in Ray's position, and unfortunately, is forced to walk a mile in his shoes.

I was never much for kicking a guy when he's down...

[global_dev]

I'm, not up on the latest acronyms or buzzwords, so I have no idea what you're talking about...

My only hope, and it is a sincere one, is that no one else here is put in Ray's position, and unfortunately, is forced to walk a mile in his shoes.

I was never much for kicking a guy when he's down...

I use the acronym CONOPS here as "Continuous Operations" - what would happen to your business, life, if something should take you out of the picture. An insurance of sorts so systems critical like this are minimally damaged ...

My family is involved in a 2 person business (father & son), only 1 for many years. If Dad hurt his back when son wasn't around in the business, new accounts stop coming in and if your response rates are poor, sustained accounts are probably gonna dry up too.

IMO...this is not kicking while he's down, this is past down... this is sifting through the rubble.

[lz6]

For what it's worth. Joel and all the mod's involved in following this whole thing through to the bitter end, Thank You! I very much appreciate your looking out for the entire community regardless of the personal pain. Your pursuit of the truth absent a rush to judgement is as fair as fair can be.

One of many, my order situation went south completely on me in September.
I was saddened to have to resolve it with a paypal complaint a few weeks ago. 10 contacts zero direct reply only an extremely misleading statement to
paypal.

[Dennis]

Thanks for the explanation Joel - sad situation.

[davecmu]

How horrible a situation, and how well handled by our mod team. Thanks to Joel and the mods for their professional communication in the face of such personal distress.

[joel]

Joel, spectacular communication, thanks for the info and the follow-up.

there are still some things on my mind about this..

as a vendor, GB had a non-existent CONOPS plan. This should be a lesson to all small business owners.

as a board community, some the mods and some members really made me feel like the bad guy. i have about 1/2 a Grand currently sitting in GB's coffers. I never expected B&B to compensate nor even offer, but next time i think some more "gentlemanly" controversial thread mod response posts would be much appreciated.

thanks for a great board that i thoroughly enjoy.

I didn't see their responses, nor your initial comments, so i can't really say much here, other than this situation has been emotionally charged for most involved, and the outcome was totally unexpected. It's really hard to jump in everyones shoes and see things from all sides, but I can assure you their intentions were honorable, and they would have done the same for you, had you been on the opposite end of the statements.

Having heard your situation over PM though, I can only say, you got what appears to be an incredibly raw deal from the vendor, and I have a terribly hard time understanding why your razors haven't been returned for months.... honed or not. One thing I can relate to however, is how upset i'd be in your shoes, so I can imagine how you must have felt when this conversation on the forum took place.

I'm glad you enjoy this community though... we're certainly glad to h ave you here. :001_smile

[global_dev]

I didn't see their responses, nor your initial comments, so i can't really say much here, other than this situation has been emotionally charged for most involved, and the outcome was totally unexpected. It's really hard to jump in everyones shoes and see things from all sides, but I can assure you their intentions were honorable, and they would have done the same for you, had you been on the opposite end of the statements.

most likely...



Having heard your situation over PM though, I can only say, you got what appears to be an incredibly raw deal from the vendor, and I have a terribly hard time understanding why your razors haven't been returned for months.... honed or not. One thing I can relate to however, is how upset i'd be in your shoes, so I can imagine how you must have felt when this conversation on the forum took place.

not me... but i hope that guy gets his razors back...


I'm glad you enjoy this community though... we're certainly glad to have you here. :001_smile

thanks, much appreciated.

[joel]

most likely...



not me... but i hope that guy gets his razors back...



thanks, much appreciated.

Yikes, my apologies I mixed you up with another chap who's got a Bismarck and a Le Grelot over there for honing. :blushing:

[Antique Hoosier]

Sad to hear this news however I applaud the owners and Moderators of our community for making what had to be a very difficult decision.

[Ihorn]

Now I know that I am very new to this community, and I have never had any kind of business with Ray. As being a veteran I truly understand what a sense of community is. The job that I did while I served was a very tight nit group. I know that when we had one of our own screw up in any way it was a huge blow to all of us, and we all took it personally. We would stand by that person though until everything was said and done. I understand that is what the Mods and Owners of this site was doing due to his upstanding reputation, and knowledge of his illness. This is to be expected.

I understand also what they must have been going through in making the tough decision that they were ultimately left with making. As someone who is now studying business I also understand what they have instructed the Mod team about with the current situation. They are just making sure that they dont leave themselves open to possible litigation in the future. This is a very understandable thing to do. While it might make some people angry that they feel they possibly wont receive compensation from the Mod team, you have to think about it from the owners stand point.

I truly hope that everyone receives what they are owed. And I truly wish Ray a speedy recovery, and a long healthy life.

[Mama Bear]

vendor CONOPS fills this need for vendors with contracts.
and bad luck does not fully describe the whole of this situation...

GB could have provided some post tracking numbers to track parcels, but opted not to, which could have alleviated some issues.

i thing fubar better describes the whole of it.

vendors take note, have a plan...

this is such a hard thread to read.. my heart is bursting for everyone here.. CONOPS is an interesting term tho and it is very valid. I have been thru 3 surgeries and am looking at a 4th one on my knee next week. Without the help of Vicki, orders would have been a real mess.. at this point, I don't do much shipping, I let her do it.. she can make some money and I know that if I am going to be down for a week or two the orders will go out. Getting those orders out is the most important part of being a vendor without a question, especially in a situation like this where customers prepay for those orders.

I have talked to Ray in the past and know that he had health issues.. I can only think he didn't have anyone to help him and may have been too proud to get help. He is an awesome guy.. is there any chance that if he can straighten this out he can come back?? I truly hope and pray that he can get this all resolved one way or another. I am so sorry to read this. Praying for everyone involved.. Hugs!

[Baloosh]

Kudos to the Mod team for the professional handling of a very personal issue.

Doing that is one of the hardest things to do sometimes. You guys can rest easy, knowing you did everything you could to help everyone involved. :thumbup:

[Mr. Scruffy]

I have talked to Ray in the past and know that he had health issues.. I can only think he didn't have anyone to help him and may have been too proud to get help. He is an awesome guy.. is there any chance that if he can straighten this out he can come back?? I truly hope and pray that he can get this all resolved one way or another. I am so sorry to read this. Praying for everyone involved.. Hugs!

I feel this way too.

[craig87c]

This whole issue (for lack of a better term) sucks for everyone.

Thanks to the mods for doing what seems like was one of the only options, and I hope Ray gets well soon. Oh and Joel, thanks for taking the time for giving a few great explanations to everyone.

[Walter Sobchak]

I feel this way too.

Me too. I know Ray a bit. I've met him and hung out with him several times. I believe he's a good guy. He's always been informative, inviting, and upstanding.

Health issues + poor economy + a new business = dire circumstances.

Unless you've faced it, it's hard to understand what happens to a man in that predicament. I don't the whole of his situation, obviously. But if there's a bankruptcy involved the proprietor is usually the last one to accept it. You try like the devil to keep the wheels turning and you don't turn away business until an attorney or judge tells you to.

To the people who have losses in this situation. I'm sure the things that have happened were not out of malice or poor character. If Ray has items you've sent to him, I believe he'll do what he can so you can eventually see them again.

It's sad and painful to see this happening. I've had three friends close their businesses in the last six months. They are all good guys and they all had unhappy people at their doorsteps when the walls crashed in. Their customers all thought the owners were unscrupulous but really they were just trying to bail the Titanic.

[LittleJon]

sad situation, I don't post much, but I do enjoy's Ray's posts and understand he is a friend of B&B and a respected member, first I hope he comes thru his health issues well. second, I thank Joel and the mod team for always looking out for the community, even thru these difficult sometimes heartbreaking decisions.

[TonyH]

... is there any chance that if he can straighten this out he can come back??


I feel this way too.

Harry and Sue, I really truly like and respect you both. A couldn't agree less in this situation. It seems like a bad idea to be asking for reinstatement for a vendor that has been banned for what amounts to fraud. Joel stated how much effort was put into helping Ray, and he refused. There are several members, so many that Joel can't even keep them straight (see above), that still haven't received their products/refunds/etc.

There have been several members on this forum that have been banned in the past that were good people who had bad circumstances, or made bad decisions. I was personally bullied by Ray and did not speak up because he was a mod. Harry, there's a reason I sold you my GB products. When I won them, I found that they hurt my skin. I pm'd Ray to ask about trading them to another member, as I didn't want to seem ungrateful. I got a rude message back about hurting his fledgling business, and that it wouldn't be fair to him, and that ended with a very aggressive "Do whatever you want". I have refused to deal with Ray ever since. And I am not the only member to have this kind of dealings with him.

Until ALL of the members that he has left in the lurch are compensated for their losses, it seems awfully tasteless to even consider a return.

And again, personal issues aside, I truly wish Ray good health and a speedy recovery. It sounds like he has had an exceptionally hard time of late, but that doesn't excuse his behavior.

[BentonClay]

Nothing wrong with voicing compassion, nor daring to hope for restoration - not only of health but stature, both of which are more linked than many would care to admit (especially, perhaps, those younger among us).

[Shavely Manden]

Oh, no...it's a real pity, since Ray was such a good fellow...both times I visited (once right before all this happened, and I'd just dropped off a razor for honing) he was more than gracious, and I've been really worried about him since. I do hope I see the razor again, but I hope more than Ray turns out OK...I hate to see good people driven to this extreme.

[TonyH]

Nothing wrong with voicing compassion, nor daring to hope for restoration - not only of health but stature, both of which are more linked than many would care to admit (especially, perhaps, those younger among us).

Harry and Sue are both extremely compassionate people, a fact that I greatly appreciate. I also wish for good health for Ray.

[Greybeard]

Nothing wrong with voicing compassion, nor daring to hope for restoration - not only of health but stature, both of which are more linked than many would care to admit (especially, perhaps, those younger among us).

Very well said.

[Loner16]

Nothing wrong with voicing compassion, nor daring to hope for restoration - not only of health but stature, both of which are more linked than many would care to admit (especially, perhaps, those younger among us).

What an incredibly insightful and intelligent post!

Thank you, good sir...

[Jethro1984]

Nothing wrong with voicing compassion, nor daring to hope for restoration - not only of health but stature, both of which are more linked than many would care to admit (especially, perhaps, those younger among us).

Very eloquent...how true!

[The Nid Hog]

Ray, my thoughts and prayers go out for your speedy recovery and I hope that everything works out for the best with your business.

Semper Fi.

Gentlemen, I hope that those of you who have had problems have them resolved to your satisfaction in short order.

[Aaron622]

I don't have anything in this since I've never dealt with Ray either as a customer or on the forum. I remember he had a series of particularly informative threads "Safety Razor of the Week" or something like that, and he seemed like a generous guy generally (hell, he won a B&B Merit Award). Obviously, I hope that his health issues are resolved quickly.

However, I'm writing mainly to applaud the decision that the mods made to not allow a vendor to be a mod:


An additional related note to the community. As a result of this situation, as of today no moderator on B&B will be allowed to become a vendor/retailer (save for grandfathering in John of WestCoastShaving.) Should a moderator wish to provide products, services, etc to this community, they'll be required to step down as a moderator.
To me, there was always a weird vibe when it came to Gentlemen's Best on the forum (and I can't say I'm too surprised to see that some members were encourage to keep quiet if they had an issue). Like I said, I was never a customer of Gentlemen's Best, mainly because he wasn't selling anything I was particularly interested (I also thought his prices were not good, for example, you could get Merkur razors cheaper at AOS). I was vaguely interested in trying some of the Gentlemen's Best line, but no one would ever post an ingredients list, nor was Ray encouraged to do so (at least that I could find). I don't think this would fly with other vendors who are often immediately asked to post ingredients. Also, there is one very prominent member who, to me, was very heavy-handed in promoting Gentlemen's Best, and I feel that had this been your average member and your average vendor, this would not fly as well. So all-in-all, I think this was an excellent decision to disallow a moderator/vendor.

[Obsessed]

I have mixed feelings on the ban that I won't bore you guys with, but I think the decision not to allow moderator vendors is very wise, for reasons both stated and implied in prior posts.

Best wishes to Ray for a speedy recovery and I hope everyone is able to resolve the business issues to their satisfaction.

[Shavely Manden]

I always had mixed feelings on Ray's moderator role at B&B...I don't think he was a bad guy (I definitely got the impression he was a good man, and as forthright as a businessman can be), but I had heard members of other communities use his role as a mod as a negative example about B&B. However, I hope Ray recovers, and I really hope GB becomes a viable business again. (I loved the B&M shop...I regret I never made an appointment to get a straight shave there. It was an incredibly picturesque, quaint little storefront in a wonderful little town.)

It's true that GB never had the best prices (though I can see why...he seemed to be running an incredibly low-volume operation in a rather high-rent area), but I always thought the best part about GB was going into the store and chatting with Ray. He'd always chat up a storm, and never felt like a salesman. In fact, when I brought my ill-fated Solingen in for restoration, he brought me over to the microscope, showed me the blade pitting, recommended breadknifing and edge rebevelling, and didn't expect any kind of honing business afterwards...I had to ask for that explicitly. He was absolutely zero-pressure, which honestly made him one of the best salesmen that I'd ever met.

I do hope he gets back on his feet. I don't know if the internet shop was really the right line of work for him...he obviously wanted a full-service establishment, which made him really uncompetitive on pricing. If only he'd fell in love with a hobby with more of a local fanbase, where a come-and-chat corner-store business model would work, I think he'd have been in a much more secure position when all the health issues cropped up.

[cooncatbob]

Very chagrined to hear about Ray's health and business problems.
My dealings with Ray have always been exemplary.
In the past he was always the Mod who I went to with a problem or question and my business dealing with him have been equally satisfactory.

[rosborne]

My best wishes go out to Ray. I never had anything but a good interaction with him and his products are among my favorites. When his online store re-opens, I will continue to purchase from him. I'm one of the people with an order still pending. My wife ordered the Patchouli shave soap for me for Christmas. It didn't make it here yet but I'm OK with that. I believe it will come when he can get it sent out.

I'm sure he's under a lot of stress with both his health concerns and his business. I'm not certain, but I believe his GB line of products were produce by Saint Sue, who recently and sadly passed. If he kept a small inventory, then I'm sure Christmas time would have quickly consumed what he may have had on hand. Both he and Wendy at Saint Charles Shave have had a lot to deal with during the end of this past year. My heart and prayers go out to both of them. Note, I'm not saying he's hasn't sent stuff out because he doesn't have anything inventory, that's just an idea of what he may be facing and I recognize some of the complaint are regarding the service of personal property.

I think Ray is a very matter of fact guy as well, maybe more direct then some people prefer. I don't think that makes him a bad person, I think it makes him Ray. I've been accused of being a little too direct myself a time or two. And as for pricing, I always thought his prices were very fair. Fair meaning that some people seem to expect to get everything at someone elses cost these days. I price-shop everything and never found his price to be out of whack. He may not of been the cheapest, soemtimes he was, but he wasn't overpriced IMHO.

I guess in all, I recognize that the actions by B&B rightfully needed to be taken. I'm one that hopes to see Ray back here at some level.

[_JP_]

I've just read through all of this with some shock. While I've known about Ray's health, I didn't know about all of this other stuff going on. And I'm having a hard time believing it because I have spent time with Ray.

I can only hope for the best for everybody involved, and hope that Ray's health improves.

[Walker]

I just found this. Wow, a sad day for me. I love GB products. Hope it all works out for everyone.

[jansob]

Well, crappity, guess my attempt at being patient and waiting for things to work out has had predictable results...it's now too late to pursue a Paypal claim. Glad it was only $36 bucks and not a prized razor that I lost.

Live and learn.

[mretzloff]

Well, crappity, guess my attempt at being patient and waiting for things to work out has had predictable results...it's now too late to pursue a Paypal claim. Glad it was only $36 bucks and not a prized razor that I lost.

Live and learn.

Did PayPal take the funds from a credit card? If so, you can still file a claim with your credit card company.

[jansob]

Did PayPal take the funds from a credit card? If so, you can still file a claim with your credit card company.

Unfortunately, no...they came from a couple of ebay sales I had made to fund my RAD. I waited longer than the 45 days because a month after the order I got an email saying the order would be shipped soon and was giving him slack knowing his medical condition was not good. A couple more emails went unanswered, and when I saw this post it was too late.

I won't regret a loss incurred through excessive empathy and trust...but it won't happen again.

[global_dev]

With almost everyone saying what a stand-up guy and how great GB's been in the past,my experience ... what I provide are strictly facts, not opinion:
since OCT 30, 2010 GB has never managed to respond, or follow-up, with any status w/ real content to my 2x a month, at max, inquiries via email and voicemail. Only brief correspondence that GB would look into it and no further status on anything i have asked about specifically including actual shipment info, refunds, cancellations, cc company correspondence, or something...

It's as if GB has no intention of ever contacting me for resolution, even if resolution was a cancellation of my order with refund. So to all those that can't believe it... my request of if a cancellation with refund was being processed by GB, but they hadn't notified me yet, was met with no reply...

The reason I present this is not an attack on GB, but offering up as a rhetorical question to those that continue to say GB is a stand-up, take no sh!t, too direct, too honest it hurts, down to earth person. With such an easy solution/remedy available to GB, why wouldn't they take it if could save face, instead of letting it get out of control...

I am not asking for a boycott of GB from you in any such way, this situation just got me thinking on a personal/spiritual level, how bad does a situation have to be before I decide when I won't continue to interact with a friend or acquaintance based on direct and indirect experiences... Do they have to resolve issues or at least attempt to resolve them to a certain level of satisfaction can they just keep sweeping them under the rug, ignoring them and I'll ignore them as well... I have to think if the few times a friend or vendor metaphorically "flips the bird" to someone who justifiably doesn't deserve it, like an auto detailer that puts swirlies and/or cuts to primer in a client's sweet new ride and tells them to piss off.. would you let them detail your car or have pride in the company you keep?

[The Nid Hog]

As I said, I hope that your situation is resolved promptly and to your satisfaction. At the same time, it must be clear to you that Ray has been a good friend to many here, and is liked and respected by many others. The situation is what it is. Would it be too much to ask you to stop stirring the pot? GB has been banned: I can't see any upside in turning this into a teachable moment by encouraging us to consider the limits of our personal loyalty. Let it go.

[rosborne]

as i said, i hope that your situation is resolved promptly and to your satisfaction. At the same time, it must be clear to you that ray has been a good friend to many here, and is liked and respected by many others. The situation is what it is. Would it be too much to ask you to stop stirring the pot? Gb has been banned: I can't see any upside in turning this into a teachable moment by encouraging us to consider the limits of our personal loyalty. Let it go.

+1

[BentonClay]

Given that Ray no longer has a voice here and cannot defend himself, am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with a gentleman's forum being used to malign someone's character and motives behind his back?

[jansob]

As I said, I hope that your situation is resolved promptly and to your satisfaction. At the same time, it must be clear to you that Ray has been a good friend to many here, and is liked and respected by many others. The situation is what it is. Would it be too much to ask you to stop stirring the pot? GB has been banned: I can't see any upside in turning this into a teachable moment by encouraging us to consider the limits of our personal loyalty. Let it go.

Yeah, I have my beefs with the moderation here, but in this case, they've done what they can by banning GB...and they only waited so long out of sympathy for a medical issue. I can't fault them for being too patient under the circumstances. I did exactly the same thing, and let my chance for resolution lapse. Swallow your losses and realize that they are really small potatoes in the big picture. It's really not worth staying angry about. I've never in my life held a grudge that was worth the damage it did to my own peace of mind. Despite my disappointment, I truly wish Ray good health and happiness,. I won't be his customer again, but I won't obsess over it either. I'll move on. My suggestion from a few more years of experience, is that you do the same.

[rosborne]

Given that Ray no longer has a voice here and cannot defend himself, am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with a gentleman's forum being used to malign someone's character and motives behind his back?

Nope, I'm with with you on this. Which is why I felt compelled to reply to the thread in the first place. I think Ray has plenty of friends here. I don't know what exactly has happened or is going on, but I won't turm my back on a friend until I understand their side as well.

[markb]

It is very sad. I too have an outstanding order with him since last November. Guess I'll try to go through PayPal and see if I can get a refund.

[Shavely Manden]

The reason I present this is not an attack on GB, but offering up as a rhetorical question to those that continue to say GB is a stand-up, take no sh!t, too direct, too honest it hurts, down to earth person. With such an easy solution/remedy available to GB, why wouldn't they take it if could save face, instead of letting it get out of control...

I'm not going to say that Ray's handling this in the best possible way, but I think I can speculate on why things are going the way they are...

We're talking about a man in very poor health, who's probably lately had some very big bills in relation to that health and who's under quite a lot of stress because of that health. He's doing what he can, I think--his website is closed for new orders, at least--but having been ordered not to work for health reasons, what he can do is pretty limited.

He clearly had many, many more orders than he usually would have (given the timing of the heart trouble with the Halloween sale), and that probably translates to many more problem orders than he'd be used to, right when he's in no condition to handle them. He probably can't just issue refunds for every order that's had an issue...that might mean bankruptcy, given the volume of orders beforehand and the likelihood that he's strapped for cash at the moment, especially since he's been unable to conduct business (i.e., lost his income) for this time, too.

This leaves him in a pretty sticky situation: he doesn't have the time or energy to deal with every problem order, and it's probable that he doesn't yet know what the financial consequences are. I doubt he wants to stiff the community, given how involved he always was, but he also can't deal with it in the "gentlemanly" way we expect...he'd almost assuredly go bankrupt right when he can't afford to. That, coupled with the stress associated with severe health issues, probably drives him to denial.

I don't want to say this's excusable, but have a bit more pity for the guy. He's not your average low-life scammer...clearly, he's invested too much in this community to throw it away lightly. He's a good man in desperate straits, and he's handling them in a poor but understandable way.

[mr. s]

I do not like the idea of speaking poorly of anyone. On the other hand, for every person that is allowed to post something positive of what an outstanding person he is, someone should be able to explain the other side. Personally, I would worry about those who are sitting on the fence. A thread full of positive comments about a vendor who has just been banned seems odd. I think that the explicit purpose of banning ANY vendor is to inform the community to NOT do business with one who cannot be trusted, (feel free to correct me if this is not an important part of banning). Should we then be persuading members who have no experience with such a vendor to actually give them business?

I have heard many things about Ray, and I do not doubt peoples personal experiences, nor do I ask them to change their attitudes towards Gentlemen's Best. I wonder though, if not solely to consider in our own lives, at what point in the challenges we face is it the best option to put our values aside? When is it that our morals matter the most?

[craig87c]

Given that Ray no longer has a voice here and cannot defend himself, am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with a gentleman's forum being used to malign someone's character and motives behind his back?

That's kinda been the policy here with banned vendors, I believe. Let sleeping dogs lie (once everyone's orders get refunded/sent out/resolved to their own satisfaction) I say.

[Mr. Scruffy]

http://www.newsrealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Pile-On.jpg

[Tha Baron]

EDIT: Removed image

[global_dev]

The window of opportunity to defend reputation continues to be unexploited. Nowhere does it say that GB's avenue to respond to customers issues is via B&B and now that that vehicle is no longer available, GB's responsibility is absolved. So if GB is to "defend" themselves, actions, not forum posting, is the appropriate maneuver.

I am not trying to stir the pot, kick while down, or malign the image of GB through mudslinging or defamation. It's honest feedback and gentlemanly discussion. For all the positive comments, my comment is just as truthful as much as it stings...

I don't think I have been mean to GB. done anything underhanded, despicable nor anything ungentlemanly... I think I may have touched a sore nerve though on folks that he has served well.

If someone thinks that my opinion or comment is way out of line, please fell free to think that and call me out.

I understand many feel that your future relationship with Ray is viable and believe have better insight into his character. Great! Enjoy! He is very lucky to have your support. I hope he gets well.

[joel]

http://pictures.funnyforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/IN-BEFORE-THE-LOCK-3.jpg

This is puerile at best. :thumbdown

[Obsessed]

I am not trying to stir the pot, kick while down, or malign the image of GB through mudslinging or defamation. It's honest feedback and gentlemanly discussion. For all the positive comments, my comment is just as truthful as much as it stings...

Look, you are absolutely right to be infuriated about the fact that Ray has hundreds of your dollars and you can't get what you paid for or get your money back. And, frankly, I think you are justified in being upset about how you were treated by some of the people here when you initially voiced your concerns. But now that you've voiced those concerns over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, you really shouldn't be surprised that people might think you're just grinding an ax at this point.

[joel]

Given that Ray no longer has a voice here and cannot defend himself, am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with a gentleman's forum being used to malign someone's character and motives behind his back?

This isn't a direct response to you - so please don't take it as such - I wanted to pull your quote to make a point.

Folks - stop, take a step back. This thread exists for 1 reason and 1 reason only. To inform the membership of news which can/will affect them, and to allow those affected to share their issues, again for ONE purpose, to inform the membership/community.

This is not a venue to bash someone, to make multiple follow-up posts after already voicing your situation, etc. If you're one of those individuals, stop doing so, before you have to be asked by a mod. We're all gentlemen, let's act accordingly.

Why should/do members have the ability to share their experiences without the vendor having the ability to respond? Well, because this individual did have the ability to address and rectify all issues, or respond to members. A large contingency of members (a small portion have come forward in this thread) have reported time and time again, unanswered emails, calls, etc. Posts made on this forum from his account making statements about all items having been shipped, and all communications to be returned, etc (which to my immense disappointment were moved out of the public's eyes by a mod) which conflict with what members have shared publicly, and myself and other mods privately. This is important... really important. 1. It allows members to band together to try to come up with a solutions/resolution if needed 2. It shows the community the experiences these members had, and helps explain why action was taken and lastly 3. It stands to warn prospective customers/members of issues. Hiding this, which might allow other members to have similar experiences, isn't viable.

This isn't fun, it isn't easy - but it is fair. There was considerable time and ability to service these customers/members, and remains no resolution from the vendor to these customers from what they have stated. Mods (multiple) made an attempt to help rectify this situation, and gave the vendor more than sufficient time to exercise upon outstanding issues. Rope was given, and the choice of hanging was not ours...

[joel]

Look, you are absolutely right to be infuriated about the fact that Ray has hundreds of your dollars and you can't get what you paid for or get your money back. And, frankly, I think you are justified in being upset about how you were treated by some of the people here when you initially voiced your concerns. But now that you've voiced those concerns over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, you really shouldn't be surprised that people might think you're just grinding an ax at this point.

+1. You've said your piece and made your point abundantly clear. Further posts add no value, you've communicated you've been wronged and the extent to which you've been wronged. We all feel for you, and empathize, but there's no sense in beating a dead horse.

[bbarton713]

This isn't a direct response to you - so please don't take it as such - I wanted to pull your quote to make a point.

Folks - stop, take a step back. This thread exists for 1 reason and 1 reason only. To inform the membership of news which can/will affect them, and to allow those affected to share their issues, again for ONE purpose, to inform the membership/community.

This is not a venue to bash someone, to make multiple follow-up posts after already voicing your situation, etc. If you're one of those individuals, stop doing so, before you have to be asked by a mod. We're all gentlemen, let's act accordingly.

Why should/do members have the ability to share their experiences without the vendor having the ability to respond? Well, because this individual did have the ability to address and rectify all issues, or respond to members. A large contingency of members (a small portion have come forward in this thread) have reported time and time again, unanswered emails, calls, etc. Posts made on this forum from his account making statements about all items having been shipped, and all communications to be returned, etc (which to my immense disappointment were moved out of the public's eyes by a mod) which conflict with what members have shared publicly, and myself and other mods privately. This is important... really important. 1. It allows members to band together to try to come up with a solutions/resolution if needed 2. It shows the community the experiences these members had, and helps explain why action was taken and lastly 3. It stands to warn prospective customers/members of issues. Hiding this, which might allow other members to have similar experiences, isn't viable.

This isn't fun, it isn't easy - but it is fair. There was considerable time and ability to service these customers/members, and remains no resolution from the vendor to these customers from what they have stated. Mods (multiple) made an attempt to help rectify this situation, and gave the vendor more than sufficient time to exercise upon outstanding issues. Rope was given, and the choice of hanging was not ours...

I appreciate the posts you've made thus far, Joel, and think that stating your dissatisfaction, once, is fair just like you said. GB had many chances to have it done a different way and chose this one instead.

That being said, I do want to echo the sentiment of dissatisfaction with the way that this was handled to start. Many people either voiced their concerns and were told that they weren't being gentlemen or had similar problems and just kept their mouth shut because they didn't want to deal with the negative fallout that might happen from having something to say.

Too many times, in my experience, the response has been directed at how someone said something rather than the why and their lack of time on B&B is given as the reason why the why doesn't really matter.

I applaud the idea of not allowing vendors to be mods and I'd like to suggest a look at how these types of things are handled overall. There are a number of people on this thread with contributor badges or high post counts that basically said nothing because they feared mod reprisal. That needs to be fixed.

And because going back and forth in written form is counter-productive I invite you to PM me and get my phone number if anyone wants to talk this over with me.

[Shavely Manden]

That being said, I do want to echo the sentiment of dissatisfaction with the way that this was handled to start. Many people either voiced their concerns and were told that they weren't being gentlemen or had similar problems and just kept their mouth shut because they didn't want to deal with the negative fallout that might happen from having something to say.

Too many times, in my experience, the response has been directed at how someone said something rather than the why and their lack of time on B&B is given as the reason why the why doesn't really matter.

I agree with the sentiment that, often, dissenting opinions are brushed off as being either ungentlemanly or stemming from unfamiliarity with the forum. However, I'm not sure, in this case, that this should've been handled more stringently from the beginning...after all, Ray was in the hospital at the time, and, from a purely practical stance, couldn't have done anything. He'd just had a huge sale (30% off), so it felt understandable that there'd be more mix-ups than usual. It wasn't until much later (after the initial hubbub had died down) that things started to get really worrying.

[jgkeegan]

I saw this thread for the first time today.

I read through it. Then I read through it again.

It is disturbing on several levels. Having visited Gentlemen's Best several times, and having posted of those wonderful experiences, I want to say "No, No, No, it isn't true," but I know it is true.

I want to say, "Have a heart you heartless jerks," but I don't really believe anyone was truly heartless, more angry and frustrated, perhaps.

I want to recite the magic words and make the whole thing go away and have things be the way they were 90-days ago. But I can't.

I am sad and, in a way hurt, although I lost no good or cash.

I like Ray. I like him a lot. I will try to catch him at his shop sometime and talk with him if I can.

The other very visible issue shouldn't be related to only Ray and/or Gentlemen's Best. It is broader than that. It is the issue of how to raise differences of opinion or to present facts without fear of backlash. Whether for good reason or not, that fear clearly exists. I'm not smart enough to know what to do about it. I'll bet the group is.

--James

[global_dev]

I apologize guys (and ladies) if I came off as going on and on about my issues. I hadn't meant to and i tried to not talk about my wronged order, but more so the kick em while he's down point and other stuff. I guess my message was unclear amid the other thoughts i have and getting caught up in the fray amidst all of the "Ray is a good guy" posts.

I am over not getting my order and i believe it will be resolved to my satisfaction.

However, if this was really an issue of GB not having enough funds for satisfactory healthcare, this is concerning to me and i truly feel sorrow for Ray and his family.

Again my sincerest apologies to all of the good & kind B&B membership for the misunderstanding. .

[craig87c]

The other very visible issue shouldn't be related to only Ray and/or Gentlemen's Best. It is broader than that. It is the issue of how to raise differences of opinion or to present facts without fear of backlash. Whether for good reason or not, that fear clearly exists.

B&B seems like it's always had a problem with this...kind of. The Mods are very dedicated to the Terms of Usage; when someone feels like they have been unfairly reprimanded, rightfully or no, they tend to voice their concerns loudly. When people are banned (pretty rarely I think), they tend to go off on an anti-B&B spread all over the shaving forums/blogs online. Some of them even start their own shaving forums. You'd never think there was so much drama over shaving!

At a certain point, it would seem to me that if I lost money to GB and had missed the Paypal deadline, I would have to start thinking about bumping it up to the next step. Talking about it online may help your frustration, but I'd think there would be legal steps to take to get back your money which would be a lot more effective. Just an opinion, of course, but it's what I'd personally consider.

[joel]

I appreciate the posts you've made thus far, Joel, and think that stating your dissatisfaction, once, is fair just like you said. GB had many chances to have it done a different way and chose this one instead.

That being said, I do want to echo the sentiment of dissatisfaction with the way that this was handled to start. Many people either voiced their concerns and were told that they weren't being gentlemen or had similar problems and just kept their mouth shut because they didn't want to deal with the negative fallout that might happen from having something to say.

Too many times, in my experience, the response has been directed at how someone said something rather than the why and their lack of time on B&B is given as the reason why the why doesn't really matter.

I applaud the idea of not allowing vendors to be mods and I'd like to suggest a look at how these types of things are handled overall. There are a number of people on this thread with contributor badges or high post counts that basically said nothing because they feared mod reprisal. That needs to be fixed.

And because going back and forth in written form is counter-productive I invite you to PM me and get my phone number if anyone wants to talk this over with me.

Had you have been here longer than three months.... TOTALLY KIDDING :lol:

Seriously though, while this relates to the topic in a "dotted line" - I don't want this thread to be about B&B policy, how it handles situations, etc... this isn't the place for that, this is a community announcement.

With the above said, I don't want to ignore your point either. I'll say this... if the same situation happened again... i'd still do the same thing for another valued/respected vendor OR member. We are a community, and i'd sooner shut our doors than allow someone to be defamed whilst they're cut open in surgery, unable to physically respond and without them being granted reasonable time to make good on whatever their debts were - given the situation. As far as any of us knew, ALL orders would be expeditiously filled once he could physically do so and we had no reason to believe otherwise. We KNEW there was a contingency of members who hadn't received their orders - so allowing an active discourse on it would do nothing but damage his reputation, and without not solve any issues. He was granted time to fill the orders and we continued to receive complaints, so we took action... I don't (and won't) see a problem with how this situation was handled.

RE: your other points, we'll just have to agree to disagree. How you say things matters, and how long you've been here (in this instance) matters. If you've only been here as long as there's been an outstanding issue, you've seen only 5% or so of that individuals activity, and will have a completely different understanding of the situation. You see how many people in this thread are crushed by this? It's for a good reason, and if you can't/don't understand it - it means you either haven't been here long enough to have known him, or you've just been asleep at the wheel.

[joel]

The other very visible issue shouldn't be related to only Ray and/or Gentlemen's Best. It is broader than that. It is the issue of how to raise differences of opinion or to present facts without fear of backlash. Whether for good reason or not, that fear clearly exists. I'm not smart enough to know what to do about it. I'll bet the group is.

--James

Raise the issue by coming to me. Naturally, I don't want to be a choke point, but if you come to me (or another mod) via PM, we'll help and it'll be a totally different tone. If someone starts making strong/sensitive public statements, it often forces a moderator to respond, and snap judgements are never as good as planned actions. We can, will and have helped folks position and investigate issues, helped and supported them going public, etc.

Think of it like this... if you're working for a big company and while at a companywide meeting you raise you hand and start bringing up sensitive issues directly to the exec team in front of the entire company - you're going to get a TOTALLY different response, and reaction, than if you had gone through a more appropriate channel. Contact someone from the exec team and raise your concern, and clearly if it's valid they'll push it up the chain, present it to the other execs, get alignment within the team - then proceed to execute a plan.

Help us, we'll help you. Many folks don't realize how active/busy the mods are here and how many little issues pop up each day. Compare us to other forums (any type/topic of forum) and you'll find we have substantially more activity than many forums with substantially greater membership statistics. With all the activity, comes a lot of little problems resulting in 116,000 posts in the mod forum. That's not playing grab ass either... that's working through problems/issues, helping resolve conflicts, etc. It's a stressful job, and it's hard to understand until you're in the hot seat, but we all have day jobs, families, and other responsibilities, so it's a LOT of work and when things happen quickly, in public and haven't been run through the right channels, don't expect the most ideal reaction.

If you (or anyone else) feel a mod isn't being fair, etc - it's my job to help correct that, so come to me with issues when they arise. If I do nothing, well... then kick and scream :wink:

Alright folks - now lets keep this back on topic...

[Blue_2]

I saw this thread for the first time today.

I read through it. Then I read through it again.

It is disturbing on several levels. Having visited Gentlemen's Best several times, and having posted of those wonderful experiences, I want to say "No, No, No, it isn't true," but I know it is true.You and me both. This is the first I've seen this and I echo your sentiment.


I want to recite the magic words and make the whole thing go away and have things be the way they were 90-days ago. But I can't.

I am sad and, in a way hurt, although I lost no good or cash.

I like Ray. I like him a lot. I will try to catch him at his shop sometime and talk with him if I can.Again, same here. All things considered I think I'll make a trip myself once his website shows his health is improving.

I know there are a bunch of you that have outstanding orders with GB, and for what it's worth you have my sympathies. I'm truly saddened by this announcement for reasons already spelled out in detail by others.

[jgkeegan]

Raise the issue by coming to me. Naturally, I don't want to be a choke point, but if you come to me (or another mod) via PM, we'll help and it'll be a totally different tone. If someone starts making strong/sensitive public statements, it often forces a moderator to respond, and snap judgements are never as good as planned actions. We can, will and have helped folks position and investigate issues, helped and supported them going public, etc.

Think of it like this... if you're working for a big company and while at a companywide meeting you raise you hand and start bringing up sensitive issues directly to the exec team in front of the entire company - you're going to get a TOTALLY different response, and reaction, than if you had gone through a more appropriate channel. Contact someone from the exec team and raise your concern, and clearly if it's valid they'll push it up the chain, present it to the other execs, get alignment within the team - then proceed to execute a plan.

Help us, we'll help you. Many folks don't realize how active/busy the mods are here and how many little issues pop up each day. Compare us to other forums (any type/topic of forum) and you'll find we have substantially more activity than many forums with substantially greater membership statistics. With all the activity, comes a lot of little problems resulting in 116,000 posts in the mod forum. That's not playing grab ass either... that's working through problems/issues, helping resolve conflicts, etc. It's a stressful job, and it's hard to understand until you're in the hot seat, but we all have day jobs, families, and other responsibilities, so it's a LOT of work and when things happen quickly, in public and haven't been run through the right channels, don't expect the most ideal reaction.

If you (or anyone else) feel a mod isn't being fair, etc - it's my job to help correct that, so come to me with issues when they arise. If I do nothing, well... then kick and scream :wink:

Alright folks - now lets keep this back on topic...

Thank you Joel. I appreciate your response.

--James.

[2b1ask1]

given that ray no longer has a voice here and cannot defend himself, am i the only one here who is uncomfortable with a gentleman's forum being used to malign someone's character and motives behind his back?

+1

[CaptainK]

This is not directed at anybody in particular, but I am reminded of the adage:
Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

[arghblech]

It sure does feel like we lose a lot of vendors this way. I can think of a few without having to wrack my brain.

[Crazy Legs]

I too have been caught up in this. I sent a razor to Ray in October. This was a razor I bought 14 years ago while working in Spain and visiting near-by villages with friends. This razor meant a lot to me and I wanted to start using THIS razor to begin my straight razor experience. It is not to be. I am sorry that Ray is not 100%. I hope he recovers completely. Perhaps if he were to have posted a thread telling of his situation things might have gone better.
I wish to apoligize to a few of the moderators that I have contacted about this and thank them for their heartfelt explanation. I have enjoyed this forum very much, looking and reading in it every day. I am glad to be a part of this community.

[Greyfox]

A very sad situation. A lot of emotions have been released. Hopefully everyone will be made whole. The situation is what it is. Time to move on IMHO for the good of the forum.

[Obsessed]

It sure does feel like we lose a lot of vendors this way. I can think of a few without having to wrack my brain.

Unfortunately, that doesn't surprise me. If you spend enough time at B&B you can forget what a small niche market the wetshaving community really is. It's only going to support so many vendors -- and only so much overhead for the vendors it does support -- and I'd imagine the margins are not huge.

[drewmac]

A very sad situation. A lot of emotions have been released. Hopefully everyone will be made whole. The situation is what it is. Time to move on IMHO for the good of the forum.

+1 :thumbup1:

[closer]

As one of the people who's orders are still pending, I've got strong opinions on this situation all around. But, I've held off on posting publicly for a couple of reasons. For now, I just wanted to provide an update - I received word from Renee earlier this week that my order, including razors, should be ready to ship by week's end. That gives me hope, and should give hope to anybody else who's orders are still pending.

At the end of all of this, ill health is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. I hope Ray recovers fully, and is able to come out stronger after this experience.

[troy1979]

to bad............

[Sluggo]

This is sad indeed...it was just last year when I went to Ray's shop the week before it had its official opening. Ray was a pleasure to meet and he even purchased my wife and I lunch at that awesome BBQ place.

But, no one is above the rules here, and while messy/unpopular...it is needed.

I certainly hope he gets back on his feet health wise.

[kap49]

This reminds me of the Shaving Essentials debacle where a well respected vendor suddenly becomes vapor. These episodes unfortunately are regular events in the world of web commerce and their eradication will always be an ongoing operation. My hat's off to the Mods, who when necessary drop the hammer on these bad apples.
Well done gentleman.

[BigFoot]

This is not directed at anybody in particular, but I am reminded of the adage:
Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

I had a manager who used that quote. At first I found it humorous but when you really break it down, there is a lot validity in that one statement. I think it applies here.

I wish the very best to all who have lost something in this ordeal. But I also can't help but wish Ray the best as well. I did not know him personally but looking back over some of the archives, he was an instrumental part of B&B.

Again...I hope those effected recover there losses, and I hope B&B can recover there loss as well.

Take care,

[CaptainK]

I had a manager who used that quote. At first I found it humorous but when you really break it down, there is a lot validity in that one statement.
Agreed. Again, these comments are not directed toward anyone in particular. But, when one holds a grudge and harbors anger or resentment towards another, one usually wishes ill on that person (perhaps under the surface). But, is the offender agonizing at all? Hardly. So, who is suffering the festering wound? One poisons oneself, when they ultimately wished to poison their offender.

[arghblech]

Unfortunately, that doesn't surprise me. If you spend enough time at B&B you can forget what a small niche market the wetshaving community really is. It's only going to support so many vendors -- and only so much overhead for the vendors it does support -- and I'd imagine the margins are not huge.

There has to be a better way. We *know* that some member-led businesses will fail. It is decidedly suboptimal to lose the person even if the business fails. In reality, lots of entrepreneurs fail only to rise from the ashes on a subsequent attempt. Our current system doesn't allow for this. Maybe it should. There isn't a simple one-size-fits-all solution but maybe the lot of us could figure something out.

Note: I'm not friends with Ray and I've never done business with him as far as I can recall.

[Obsessed]

There has to be a better way. We *know* that some member-led businesses will fail. It is decidedly suboptimal to lose the person even if the business fails. In reality, lots of entrepreneurs fail only to rise from the ashes on a subsequent attempt. Our current system doesn't allow for this. Maybe it should. There isn't a simple one-size-fits-all solution but maybe the lot of us could figure something out.

Note: I'm not friends with Ray and I've never done business with him as far as I can recall.

I only meant that it would not surprise me if some or all of "our" vendors have a tough time making it. I wasn't referring to the actions taken by the mods in this or any other case.

[jgkeegan]

There has to be a better way. We *know* that some member-led businesses will fail. It is decidedly suboptimal to lose the person even if the business fails. In reality, lots of entrepreneurs fail only to rise from the ashes on a subsequent attempt. Our current system doesn't allow for this. Maybe it should. There isn't a simple one-size-fits-all solution but maybe the lot of us could figure something out.

Note: I'm not friends with Ray and I've never done business with him as far as I can recall.


I very much like the thinking reflected here.

--james

[TonyH]

There has to be a better way. We *know* that some member-led businesses will fail. It is decidedly suboptimal to lose the person even if the business fails. In reality, lots of entrepreneurs fail only to rise from the ashes on a subsequent attempt. Our current system doesn't allow for this. Maybe it should. There isn't a simple one-size-fits-all solution but maybe the lot of us could figure something out.

Note: I'm not friends with Ray and I've never done business with him as far as I can recall.


I only meant that it would not surprise me if some or all of "our" vendors have a tough time making it. I wasn't referring to the actions taken by the mods in this or any other case.


I very much like the thinking reflected here.

--james

These are all good points that bear further thought. However, they do not account for Ray's refusal to accept assistance. While many vendors do fail, it is generally while kicking and screaming to the last, and on their own. This situation could have been neatly resolved for all parties had the vendor only swallowed his pride.

There is a vast difference between a simple business failure, with proper communication and due diligence, and just leaving your "friends" and customers twisting in the wind. Every circumstance is different, and maybe there is a way to further vet our vendors in the event that they want to try their hand at business again. But again, the difference is a lack of demand vs. getting yourself banned over lack of humility.

[Haiku]

I would like to join those who wish Ray a speedy and complete recovery and I would also like to express my hope that all who lost something here get full recompense to their complete satisfaction.

To Joel and the other Mods: what a hard, hard decision you folks had to make. Your offers to Ray to assist him in this doesn't surprise me. The folks at B+B have repeatedly shown themselves to be exemplars.

[arghblech]

I only meant that it would not surprise me if some or all of "our" vendors have a tough time making it. I wasn't referring to the actions taken by the mods in this or any other case.

Agreed. I wasn't actually arguing as much as quoting you so the posts made sense :001_smile


I very much like the thinking reflected here.

Thanks! I'll go back to being a jerk as soon as I get this out of my system :thumbup:

[mikromicke]

Wow just saw this. I had a razor in for sharpening that I had been waiting for since the end of September. Last thing I heard from Ray was that he had sent it back together with my uncashed check the 16th of December. Unfortunately I was away over Christmas and I can't find the package here. It might have gotten lost while waiting for me to get back though ...

Sorry to hear that it went this far

[Roobaix]

So has anybody heard what's going on at the B&M GB store? The website says the store is open and that someone will be there for walk in customers. I tried calling yesterday during normal hours...no answer. My friend and I drove up there yesterday afternoon (again, during normal hours) to stop in...the store was closed for the night. We did have a rather large snow storm last night so they might have been closed due to that, but with everything going on I can't help but wonder if that was really the case.

When I first heard about this I was heartbroken. For those of you who have never met or chatted with Ray he really is a nice, down to earth guy. He's the epitome of a shaving junky. He's got all of his personal razor collection on display in the store, which is all mint condition vintage razors...tons a Gillette. I've been to GB a few times and spent at least an hour just talking with him about everything each time. I know he's had his medical problems in the past, but I really hope that he's ok and that he has a good recovery.

Since I'm localish, I was going to offer him help on getting everything back on track with these outstanding orders. I knew he wouldn't accept it, but I wanted to try anyway. I also hope that he can get the store back to a functioning business. The GB line of products is really great stuff on it's own...I hope I don't need to stockpile it if I ever get the chance to walk in the doors again.

[rm71]

I hope Ray gets better soon. I bought a couple of DE razors of him with no problems at all.

[Loner16]

I know that when Ray returns to good health, and the store is again up and running, he'll have a customer once again in me...

[colday]

i know that when ray returns to good health, and the store is again up and running, he'll have a customer once again in me...

+1

[Brush_with_Fame]

Sent him some money a few weeks ago for an order,
and no response or anything...
Logged in to B&B to learn if anything was up.

Best wishes for Ray and family, but would be nice of them to post a message or close the site, temporarily at least. They are fully capable of taking money, so someone is working it.

[Shavely Manden]

Best wishes for Ray and family, but would be nice of them to post a message or close the site, temporarily at least. They are fully capable of taking money, so someone is working it.

Currently, there is a message on the site saying that they're not taking orders.

[Brush_with_Fame]

oh really? dang.
i wish i saw that note saying they are not accepting orders,
before they went and accepted my order.
and money.

[craig87c]

Currently, there is a message on the site saying that they're not taking orders.


oh really? dang.
i wish i saw that note saying they are not accepting orders,
before they went and accepted my order.
and money.

This shouldn't happen. He should disable the ability to even take orders/money if he won't be carrying them out.

[Shavely Manden]

This shouldn't happen. He should disable the ability to even take orders/money if he won't be carrying them out.

The only thing I currently see on his site to accept money is the PayPal link for a gift certificate...all the product listings are gone. I think the note & stopping orders is a pretty new thing, so it might not've been up when Brush with Fame made his ill-fated order.

[texquill]

oh really? dang.
i wish i saw that note saying they are not accepting orders,
before they went and accepted my order.
and money.

How did you pay? If it was with PayPal and within the last 45 days, file a grievance. If it was direct with a credit card, contact your credit card company.

[Austin]

How did you pay? If it was with PayPal and within the last 45 days, file a grievance. If it was direct with a credit card, contact your credit card company.

Use this option.

[bbarton713]

The only thing I currently see on his site to accept money is the PayPal link for a gift certificate...all the product listings are gone. I think the note & stopping orders is a pretty new thing, so it might not've been up when Brush with Fame made his ill-fated order.

I went into the new product section and there are two items in there where you can click on pay with paypal and when you do get redirected to the paypal site in order to pay.

[mr. s]

I would be surprised if their paypal account would be working even. Would paypal continue to allow it even after so many claims?

[Shavely Manden]

I went into the new product section and there are two items in there where you can click on pay with paypal and when you do get redirected to the paypal site in order to pay.

You're right...I guess they forgot to modify the bottom of the page, just the sidebar. I don't see anything on the sidebar pointing to products, though.

[Eric V]

I did not read all the posts in this thread, but feel compelled to add my 2 cents also. I appreciate the way this was handled by B and B. I feel frustrated that many lost time and money through Gentlemen's Best. I wish a good recovery for Ray, who, from the sound of things, has had his judgement affected by health issues. Dang!

[Brush_with_Fame]

I purchased replacement scales,
after I found his page thru a google search...

(tried to purchase them, I should say).

I have the case pending in PayPal and my credit card company...

[bandit82ta]

This is truly sad news. Life's been busy and I've been away from B&B more then I wish and to return again to more sad news is just disheartening. I hope all with a stake can find resolution.

[mikromicke]

I just got my package (USPS held it for a month) and unfortunately it wasn't my razor he sent back to me. If anyone is missing a razor that was sent in for honing, PM me with a description so I can post this to the right owner. I have no idea where my razor is but it feels wrong not trying to find the right owner of this razor.


Wow just saw this. I had a razor in for sharpening that I had been waiting for since the end of September. Last thing I heard from Ray was that he had sent it back together with my uncashed check the 16th of December. Unfortunately I was away over Christmas and I can't find the package here. It might have gotten lost while waiting for me to get back though ...

Sorry to hear that it went this far

[Tha Baron]

I just got my package (USPS held it for a month) and unfortunately it wasn't my razor he sent back to me. If anyone is missing a razor that was sent in for honing, PM me with a description so I can post this to the right owner. I have no idea where my razor is but it feels wrong not trying to find the right owner of this razor.

Very commendable! I am sure the rightful owner will be very pleased. I would PM Joel the description since I think he might know of the owner if they happen to miss this thread.

[Austin]

Very commendable! I am sure the rightful owner will be very pleased. I would PM Joel the description since I think he might know of the owner if they happen to miss this thread.

Unfortunately, the admins and mods have done everything we can do with Gentleman's Best.

[merchantbanker]

This is insane! I was in Southington (where his store is) visiting family over Christmas and I went in his shop while I was there. He wasn't there when I first arrived, must have been his wife or female relative standing in for him, because he was at the doctor's office. Seemed like a nice guy. There were many straights sitting on a table by the honing blocks, and he mentioned to me that he offers straight razor honing as a service. I bought some CF 1445 EdP from him! Seeing this thread made me recheck my bank statement. I'm not accusing him of anything, but this thread is reason for caution.

Simply put, this is a tragedy, both to the customers whose items are indefinitely out of their possession and the community as a whole. From what I understand, Ray or "thirdeye" was considered an upstanding member of this community. Don't know what happened to him, but I hope is ok and gets his act together to bring resolve to this situation.

I understand how the customers must feel, and I applaud the mods for handling this situation. Though it wasn't handled as quickly as some would have liked, I believe the mods handled it as quickly as they were able to. Best wishes to all suffering from this tragedy.

[merchantbanker]

Raise the issue by coming to me. Naturally, I don't want to be a choke point, but if you come to me (or another mod) via PM, we'll help and it'll be a totally different tone. If someone starts making strong/sensitive public statements, it often forces a moderator to respond, and snap judgements are never as good as planned actions. We can, will and have helped folks position and investigate issues, helped and supported them going public, etc.

Think of it like this... if you're working for a big company and while at a companywide meeting you raise you hand and start bringing up sensitive issues directly to the exec team in front of the entire company - you're going to get a TOTALLY different response, and reaction, than if you had gone through a more appropriate channel. Contact someone from the exec team and raise your concern, and clearly if it's valid they'll push it up the chain, present it to the other execs, get alignment within the team - then proceed to execute a plan.

Help us, we'll help you. Many folks don't realize how active/busy the mods are here and how many little issues pop up each day. Compare us to other forums (any type/topic of forum) and you'll find we have substantially more activity than many forums with substantially greater membership statistics. With all the activity, comes a lot of little problems resulting in 116,000 posts in the mod forum. That's not playing grab ass either... that's working through problems/issues, helping resolve conflicts, etc. It's a stressful job, and it's hard to understand until you're in the hot seat, but we all have day jobs, families, and other responsibilities, so it's a LOT of work and when things happen quickly, in public and haven't been run through the right channels, don't expect the most ideal reaction.

If you (or anyone else) feel a mod isn't being fair, etc - it's my job to help correct that, so come to me with issues when they arise. If I do nothing, well... then kick and scream :wink:

Alright folks - now lets keep this back on topic...

Hey Joel, just some thoughts on conflict resolution best practices going forward. I respectfully disagree with your points about bringing up sensitive points in a private closed door session. Haha, if you've ever worked for a big company, then you know that nothing is handled privately. Even emails sent between colleagues usually have someone else cc'd on them haha. I work for and with big companies and can say that nothing gets resolved when you raise an issue privately. Obviously, personal matters should be raised privately, however, when a personal issue can not be resolved privately, it should be made public. I believe most of the members here tried to handle the issue privately, with Ray, and when that failed, they turned to B&B. When an issue is raised publicly, two things happen: 1) it forces parties to address the problem and encourages accountability, and 2) it gives other people the chance to voice their concerns on the matter, which might shed light onto whether the issue is a systemic problem, or an individual isolated incident. I don't think anyone did anything wrong by publicly inquiring about the status of their order or calling Ray out. Had someone not voiced this concern, they would have mistakenly believed it was an individual isolated incident instead of a systemic problem that many are dealing with. I for one would never have thought to run to a mod and cry about a problem I had, but if I did have an issue with vendor, I think it's fair that members be allowed to ask the members of this forum their experiences.

Granted I do not know how the members presented or positioned their concerns, but it seems like most the members of this forum have the capacity to understand levels of escalation. I'd be willing to bet most of the people who posted their grievances publicly had waited several weeks beyond what they would reasonably expect for their orders to be filled. These members probably also emailed and called Ray too. You see, it was probably the case that most members waited several weeks past their order ETA, and after several failed attempts at contacting Ray that they posted their grievances publicly. If you recognize that snap judgments were made on the part of the mods, then perhaps you and other mods should rectify that. The benefit of the doubt should have been given to most of the members on this forum, and it should have been realized that they probably went through the appropriate levels of escalation before calling out someone who, before this incident, was highly respected. The point is, I believe most members did try to handle this matter privately with Ray. It was after failed attempts at resolving this with him that the members sought to still their confusion in each other.

I have seen many of your posts where you openly commend certain vendors, when deserved. Why not allow others to condemn certain vendors, when deserved? It seems like you're allowing one side of the coin, and not the other. I'm not suggesting that B&B should be allowed to turn into a vendor bashing forum, but members shouldn't experience retribution when someone airs a grievance about a vendor to see if other members have had similar issues.

I met Ray literally 3 days before you posted this thread, and thought he seemed like a nice guy. I for one am very surprised to see that he is a culprit in a very tragic situation. I wish the best to everyone involved, and as I've mentioned to you in private, you do a wonderful job at modding this forum, and your reviews are the very reason that I am into wet shaving today. Hats off to you and the mod team. I don't think this could have been handled any quicker than it was, and your decision was fair. With that said, good luck to everyone involved. B&B is where I turn for my daily solace and I'm sure it will heal from this toxic situation.

Have to run to a continual learning class :001_rolle Happy Saturday!

[Crag]

This is such an unfortunate situation for all those members whose orders have not been filled, and have not found restitution. I know that it was a hard decision for the Mod Team. I think it was a right and good decision for the community to permanently ban Ray, albeit an extremely difficult one.

Fortunately I was able to get a full refund through my credit card company, so I feel for all who did not.

[danrobles]

So I just stumbled across this as I also have an outstanding order with Ray and 3 Str8ts and 1 DE I am outside of the 45 day window with paypal as I had placed my order during the Halloween sale. I would not have waited so long had it not been for a recent trend of unfortunate events any suggestions on contacting him I have attempted email and phone neither of which has seen a response?

[rosborne]

I've tried to get in touch with him as well with no luck. I don't know if he is not able to respond or what is going on. I hope the best for him. I was even interested in carrying on the Gentlemen's Best line of products if he was closing up for good. It's a shame because he had some good stuff. I hate to see another quality shave product disappear. I know who made the products for him and the soap itself can still be purchased, but not the actual scent as it was created for Gentlemen's Best. ( or so I believe ).

[Tha Baron]

So I just stumbled across this as I also have an outstanding order with Ray and 3 Str8ts and 1 DE I am outside of the 45 day window with paypal as I had placed my order during the Halloween sale. I would not have waited so long had it not been for a recent trend of unfortunate events any suggestions on contacting him I have attempted email and phone neither of which has seen a response?

I think your only recourse is calling the credit card company if your PayPal payment was made through a CC. If not, you might be out of luck.

I can't but help think that the timing of the 30% sale and his "absence" are a little curious... I am sure there are plenty of people who waited beyond the 45 days given his then solid reputation. Easy money...

[Roobaix]

I was going to take a ride up to the store tomorrow afternoon, but I can't get ahold of anyone. His website says someone will be in the store for walk ins, but it's not exactly around the corner and I'm not wasting that much time/gas just to get to a closed store again. Does this person not know how to answer the phone, or is the store just plain closed now?

[jansob]

I think your only recourse is calling the credit card company if your PayPal payment was made through a CC. If not, you might be out of luck.

I can't but help think that the timing of the 30% sale and his "absence" are a little curious... I am sure there are plenty of people who waited beyond the 45 days given his then solid reputation. Easy money...

That is curious...

[michiganlover]

I can't but help think that the timing of the 30% sale and his "absence" are a little curious... I am sure there are plenty of people who waited beyond the 45 days given his then solid reputation. Easy money...

I am inclined to think he may of had some unexpected health expenses come up, and the 30% off sale was to raise some quick capital, along with liquidating inventory. Some/ Many people who participated in the 30% off sale did get their merchandise.

[Tha Baron]

I am inclined to think he may of had some unexpected health expenses come up, and the 30% off sale was to raise some quick capital, along with liquidating inventory. Some/ Many people who participated in the 30% off sale did get their merchandise.

I guess nobody will ever really know... However, I do tend to think that some people who received packages (some of which were Mods) inadvertently helped perpetuate his legitimacy for a while longer (i.e. his "working on the glut of orders and I'm still catching up" story).

Scamming Peter to pay Paul... Maybe we can send Irving Picard after him.

[FL shaver]

I can't but help think that the timing of the 30% sale and his "absence" are a little curious... I am sure there are plenty of people who waited beyond the 45 days given his then solid reputation. Easy money...

I am so surprised nobody posted this earlier (Maybe I missed it.). You'd like to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who has been a solid vendor and who was known to have some health issues. The first thing that came to my mind, though, when I saw the sale (I mean, 30% off EVERYTHING?), was that the store would be closing soon or he needed money fast. Seemed too good to be true. How could he offer 30% off Castle Forbes products, but no other vendor could? Guess it was too good to be true. Unfortunate for those who lost money and razors...

[coolbluewater]

Given that Ray no longer has a voice here and cannot defend himself, am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with a gentleman's forum being used to malign someone's character and motives behind his back?

+1
I find it appalling to read some digs here directed at Ray by members who are only seeing a later "slice" of his presence here at B&B, as Joel has stated. While I hope those customers in discord get things sorted out on a positive note, deteriorating health tends to deteriorate all other aspects of life, as others have mentioned. I've dealt with Ray when his health was better, and he was always a stand-up guy.
I only wish the best for Ray and his health.

[Baloosh]

+1
I find it appalling to read some digs here directed at Ray by members who are only seeing a later "slice" of his presence here at B&B, as Joel has stated. While I hope those customers in discord get things sorted out on a positive note, deteriorating health tends to deteriorate all other aspects of life, as others have mentioned. I've dealt with Ray when his health was better, and he was always a stand-up guy.

People tend to not remember much of the past, except the last few instances. Just like the old "customer service" adage: It takes a lot less effort to lose 10 customers than it does to get 1.



I only wish the best for Ray and his health.

I don't think anyone throughout this entire forum would disagree with that sentiment. At the same time, I also wish the best for all gents who still have outstanding orders/products/issues. In the best of worlds, everyone, including Ray and all his customers, will see the best outcome for all involved.

[Roobaix]

And the phone number is now out of service...

[CapnPanther]

I can't but help think that the timing of the 30% sale and his "absence" are a little curious... I am sure there are plenty of people who waited beyond the 45 days given his then solid reputation. Easy money...

Perhaps, but I placed an order for a not insignificant amount and received a e-mail from Ray indicating that it had been canceled because a number of items were out of stock. Sure enough, the full amount was immediately refunded to my Paypal account. That is not the behavior of someone who intends to fleece you.

[Tha Baron]

Perhaps, but I placed an order for a not insignificant amount and received a e-mail from Ray indicating that it had been canceled because a number of items were out of stock. Sure enough, the full amount was immediately refunded to my Paypal account. That is not the behavior of someone who intends to fleece you.

Maybe you should check your logic with the number of people who haven't received anything, are still missing razors, or those he intentionally misled over the phone etc. I have heard from a few people who said they spoke to him directly in which Ray promised their package was "going out the next day" and then blaming the post office for the non-delivery.

[The Nid Hog]

Perhaps, but I placed an order for a not insignificant amount and received a e-mail from Ray indicating that it had been canceled because a number of items were out of stock. Sure enough, the full amount was immediately refunded to my Paypal account. That is not the behavior of someone who intends to fleece you.

I had a similar experience. I also hardly think that Ray feigned his heart problems in order to swindle some of our members out of their straights. It is what it is, but it isn't that.

Joel and the Mods have done an exemplary job of trying to straighten things out for members who lost money or gear. Beyond that, I don't see what we gain by raking over our speculations about the intentions of a member who most of us have never met. That isn't going to put a penny back into your pocket or a razor on the sink. Each person who reads this thread is free to do whatever they want. However, I suggest we let it go and move on.

[mikromicke]

Could it be interesting to start a lost and found thread regarding razors that were sent in for honing. I still have not been able to find the owner of the razor I received and have no idea where my razor might be.

I've PMd with a couple of guys who also had lost razors and who knows, maybe we can get some of the razors to the right owners. I'm guessing that Ray had a lot of customers who aren't members here though so some might be lost for good :sad:

[livingontheedge]

I also hardly think that Ray feigned his heart problems in order to swindle some of our members out of their straights. It is what it is, but it isn't that.

Joel and the Mods have done an exemplary job of trying to straighten things out for members who lost money or gear. Beyond that, I don't see what we gain by raking over our speculations about the intentions of a member who most of us have never met. That isn't going to put a penny back into your pocket or a razor on the sink. Each person who reads this thread is free to do whatever they want. However, I suggest we let it go and move on.

+1 with the cost of medical care in the US he probably desperatly needed the funds to help pay, When a man is fighting for his very life, it's difficult to think about anything else but survival.

[Shavely Manden]

Maybe you should check your logic with the number of people who haven't received anything, are still missing razors, or those he intentionally misled over the phone etc. I have heard from a few people who said they spoke to him directly in which Ray promised their package was "going out the next day" and then blaming the post office for the non-delivery.

It's possible that Ray's intentions changed after he'd had heart trouble and his business started faltering. However, it doesn't really seem likely that the 30% off sale was intended as a scam.


+1 with the cost of medical care in the US he probably desperatly needed the funds to help pay, When a man is fighting for his very life, it's difficult to think about anything else but survival.

Also, considering that he was a small businessman, I wonder how good his health insurance was. Running a business is rather different proposition than having a desk job...you don't just get benefits because your employer said you do, you have to pay for them yourself, which is money that could otherwise be invested in the business. It's really tempting to skimp on insurance going into business, and GB seems like the sort of business that sorta needed all the money it could get...Ray mentioned once not having the capital to buy a brush a customer had explicitly ordered. (Admittedly, a preban-ivory Plisson, but still...) He didn't keep any stock beyond what he had on display in the store, and he could never really lower prices enough to be that competitive with, say, WCS...it seems like the business was always on something of a razor edge (no pun intended), so I can imagine that he might've bought a suboptimal insurance plan and be paying for that now.

[texquill]

It's possible that Ray's intentions changed after he'd had heart trouble and his business started faltering. However, it doesn't really seem likely that the 30% off sale was intended as a scam.

+1

First, in the spirit of full disclosure, I was one of the folks who ordered during the sale, and I didn't received the merchandise until a LOT of time had gone by. Although we had no prior relationship, Ray returned my telephone calls and, to my delight, he sent me all that I had ordered.

I agree with the comment about the sale likely not being a scam. I would imagine that Ray's gross profit on most of the items in his catalog was in the general range of 30%+. What many businesses do when they get into a situation where cash is low and inventories are high is to "monetize" the inventory - that is, turn it into cash. If Ray was facing an expensive hospital stay and wanted to make sure he could cover the bills while he was out of commission, he may well have decided to monetize the inventory through the 30% off sale.

[bradyarz]

i must have been living under a rock; i just stumbled across this thread today. i knew of his health issues, but i didn't hear anything else past that.

dark times indeed.

[Will P.C.]

crazy thread

he must have needed money fast to reduce everything by 30%. The markup on most of these products is around that figure.

[KittensAndRainbows]

i must have been living under a rock; i just stumbled across this thread today. i knew of his health issues, but i didn't hear anything else past that.

dark times indeed.

I just found this yesterday. I had a little problem with GB back around November, but it wasn't anything major. I knew there were health problems, so I didn't worry about it. What really sucks is that GB was hands down my favorite product line.

[Walker]

I just found this yesterday. I had a little problem with GB back around November, but it wasn't anything major. I knew there were health problems, so I didn't worry about it. What really sucks is that GB was hands down my favorite product line.

+1 me too. I'm watching my Signature Series dwindle and thinking "it's gonna suck when it's gone".

[mikromicke]

I started a thread here: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=192079 if people who have missing razor would like to put up pictures of them. Also if anyone knows the owner of the one I have posted a picture of there, just contact me.




Could it be interesting to start a lost and found thread regarding razors that were sent in for honing. I still have not been able to find the owner of the razor I received and have no idea where my razor might be.

I've PMd with a couple of guys who also had lost razors and who knows, maybe we can get some of the razors to the right owners. I'm guessing that Ray had a lot of customers who aren't members here though so some might be lost for good :sad:

[novice]

After reading the postings to this thread, I'm extremely saddened at the losses of money, product and personal items by fellow B&B members, I'm also saddened at Ray's loss of reputation (and health). I had 2 shopping experiences with him, 1 this past summer where I received excellent advice and the products he suggested have been superb, I regret that I can't replace them as I'm running out. The second was a vintage razor purchased off the bay, it took about 45 days before the item arrived, but arrive it did, well packaged and as described. I can ony hope for restitution for those who have, as of this moment, lost money or product.

[DapperJames]

This is all sad to read. Ray spent over 2 hours talking with me in regards to straight shaving & giving his recommendations when I walked into Gentlemen's Best for the first time. I went in knowing nothing and left with a wealth of knowledge. In later months he helped me several times over the phone when I'd stumble upon a straight and had questions about the maker or if it was a good purchase. I wish him well. To the members who have had problems it's a real shame and I hope all your issues get resolved.

[newboy]

On a whim I just thought I'd check into B&B and see what ray was up to and found this thread much to my surprise.
I stopped coming here after being ripped off by ray on an ebay sale.
Ebay and my transaction with him had nothing to do with this site, so never said anything about it here. But I didn't want to participate in a forum where he was a moderator anymore so I left for good.

I was just looking at ebay for other things today, (I don't buy any razors anymore :) ) and was reminded about Ray and in association B&B so came here to see if any others have had bad dealings with him.
Interesting it wasn't just me he ripped off though.

[miamimoe]

Having never purchased from GB, I have no comments on that matter. I do want to give a tip of the hat to the moderators for their great work on behalf of the B&B community. On three occasions in my lifetime, I have been the president of not-for-profit community associations, meaning it was unpaid, volunteer work. I think I have an understanding of what the mods do in terms of presiding over a large on-line community, and based on my experiences, it is a lot of work, which is done from the heart and for the best interests of the community. I salute the moderators for their work and commitment to B&B, and hope that all of us understand and appreciate their time and effort.

[jeffpofutah]

This is a crushing blow. Ray has done dozens of PIF's here on B&B, and spent countless hours ID'ing razors for folks, assisting newbies and otherwise being an upstanding member of the community. We wholeheartedly wish Ray the best, but most of all, we hope all members who have not received their orders, soon find restitution.

Sad to watch as someone fails. Good job to the moderators for doing the hard work.

[Shavely Manden]

Looks like his site's finally down.

[closer]

For anybody still following this thread - my order, which was promised to be shipped to me at the end of December, never arrived. As usual, email and phone messages were never returned. About a month ago, I actually drove up to Southington, CT (about 2.5hrs) to see if I could find somebody at his shop physically. I got there about 4pm on a Saturday, and the shop was closed. I asked around the area, and the owners (Paul) at the smoke shop across the street said Ray had been there that afternoon. It seems Ray was going to move shop down the road, but I couldn't find him at the new location either. I left my phone number with Paul, who promised to deliver it to Ray, but I never received a call back.

Ray still has 2 of my razors (Dovo Bismarck, TI Le Grelot - both in pristine condition) that had been sent for honing, and I've officially given up hope of ever seeing them again. I contemplated filing a suit in small claims court, but don't think its worth the time.

[Tha Baron]

For anybody still following this thread - my order, which was promised to be shipped to me at the end of December, never arrived. As usual, email and phone messages were never returned. About a month ago, I actually drove up to Southington, CT (about 2.5hrs) to see if I could find somebody at his shop physically. I got there about 4pm on a Saturday, and the shop was closed. I asked around the area, and the owners (Paul) at the smoke shop across the street said Ray had been there that afternoon. It seems Ray was going to move shop down the road, but I couldn't find him at the new location either. I left my phone number with Paul, who promised to deliver it to Ray, but I never received a call back.

Ray still has 2 of my razors (Dovo Bismarck, TI Le Grelot - both in pristine condition) that had been sent for honing, and I've officially given up hope of ever seeing them again. I contemplated filing a suit in small claims court, but don't think its worth the time.

Wow... looks like Ray even lied to his neighbors... "moving the shop" down the road - give me a break. Pride certainly got the best of him and it seems a lot people here paid the price. At least those Canadian scammers are quick about the hits... this one from "Gentleman's Worst" just keeps on giving...

Sorry to hear about your Bismarck and LeG. There is a "missing from GB" thread over in the straight section you should check out. Perhaps someone received your razors.

[chongyixiong]

Having never purchased from GB, I have no comments on that matter. I do want to give a tip of the hat to the moderators for their great work on behalf of the B&B community. On three occasions in my lifetime, I have been the president of not-for-profit community associations, meaning it was unpaid, volunteer work. I think I have an understanding of what the mods do in terms of presiding over a large on-line community, and based on my experiences, it is a lot of work, which is done from the heart and for the best interests of the community. I salute the moderators for their work and commitment to B&B, and hope that all of us understand and appreciate their time and effort.

Nicely said. I have been in similiar positions myself and had been suspected by members for being on another side of the fence.. it's hard trying to justify yourself when you are already putting your best at heart for the community just because this was a community of people who loved what you also loved.

Kudos to the moderators and the wonderful people who had made this place a truly wonderful site to browse.

[Obsessed]

I'm hesitant to get this started again, but it really offends me that Ray has not returned people's property, and I'd like to help them track it down.

Here's his new website:

http://lasersnrazors.com/default.aspx

Here's info from his Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gentlemens-Best-Lasers-N-Razors/173501794555?sk=info

[nole1]

I'm hesitant to get this started again, but it really offends me that Ray has not returned people's property, and I'd like to help them track it down.

Here's his new website:

http://lasersnrazors.com/default.aspx

Here's info from his Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gentlemens-Best-Lasers-N-Razors/173501794555?sk=info

Wow... just... wow :thumbdown

[goby]

I'm hesitant to get this started again, but it really offends me that Ray has not returned people's property, and I'd like to help them track it down.

Here's his new website:

http://lasersnrazors.com/default.aspx

Here's info from his Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gentlemens-Best-Lasers-N-Razors/173501794555?sk=info

Wow, that takes balls. Has anyone filed a criminal complaint? What about EVERYONE calling the local police on the same day? What about friending him on Facebook and asking where your razor/product/money is?

[mr. s]

I posted a discussion on the facebook page with a link to this discussion.

I don't know if I should just post on the main page and call him out.

[Brush_with_Fame]

mind boggling...

[insomniac]

What an asshat.

I wonder if we'll see some familiar razors for sale :thumbdown

[mr. s]

I think people need to be posting things on that facebook page at the very least. People need to be informed.

[goby]

He's deleted a few of the comments. Time to post some more.

[insomniac]

If you mailed him razors and he hasn't returned them, it could very well be considered mail fraud.

Call your local postal inspector.

[Antique Hoosier]

I've never been one for pitchforks, torches, and tar, but I believe it might be just about time to remove this former member from the Merit Award Hall. Not that it does any good to our members who have been wronged but rather as a gesture that reinforces the Gentlemanly principles our B&B Community is founded upon. I'm also a strong advocate of "innocent until proven guilty" however, this latest revelation strikes me as a direct thumbing of the nose at the entire process of what's right and what's wrong.

[CapnPanther]

Initially, I was inclined to give Ray the benefit of the doubt. Now all doubt is removed and he's not the beneficiary.

[Loner16]

Ray has been pretty good to me in the past.
Ray has done alot for underpriveledged people, and alot for many here. Some may not remember, and some may not know in the first place.
Hopefully, many people here will not have to struggle through the same type of problems that Ray experienced.
To that end, when the new website is operational, I will support him.

I've already got some new laser cut scales picked out..

[Baloosh]

It looks like the address of his new store is on that Facebook link, so at least it's possibly a start to contacting him and getting some answers and/or missing items. At this point, I would think it's the least he could do. If he's ready to start a new business venture, he can at least clean up the mess of the old one before he gets too far into it.

[mr. s]

Ray has been pretty good to me in the past.
Ray has done alot for underpriveledged people, and alot for many here. Some may not remember, and some may not know in the first place.
Hopefully, many people here will not have to struggle through the same type of problems that Ray experienced.
To that end, when the new website is operational, I will support him.

I've already got some new laser cut scales picked out..

Have you read this entire thread yet?
I believe he has done good in the past...... and then he took thousands of dollars of peoples things and money and didn't give them back......

[Loner16]

Have you read this entire thread yet?
I believe he has done good in the past...... and then he took thousands of dollars of peoples things and money and didn't give them back......

Yes, I have!

And, if you have, you will have noticed that I've posted in this thread before. I have not heard Ray's side of the story, and I don't know if anyone else has either, or even cares to... Until I have, I will decline making accusatory and inflammatory remarks about an otherwise good a decent individual that suffered financially crippling health problems...

I can only hope that if I was walking in Ray's shoes, that folks would do the same for me. But, judging by what I've read, that seems highly doubtful.

[mr. s]

I really hope that you are able to find out all the details, and I hope he has a great reason for doing this to so many people.
I also hope that if you do business with him that he doesn't do the same to you.

[michiganlover]

Yes, I have!

And, if you have, you will have noticed that I've posted in this thread before. I have not heard Ray's side of the story, and I don't know if anyone else has either, or even cares to... Until I have, I will decline making accusatory and inflammatory remarks about an otherwise good a decent individual that suffered financially crippling health problems...

I can only hope that if I was walking in Ray's shoes, that folks would do the same for me. But, judging by what I've read, that seems highly doubtful.

How do you reconcile the fact that he clearly has taken members of this board for $1000's of dollars? A person of sound moral character doesn't do such a thing.

Even when faced with crippling health problems, I doubt most of us would toss our entire moral structure aside, and somehow reason that outright theft would be ok.

I would rather be dead than have a body of friends view me as a slime bucket!!

[Thelonius1]

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I never had the opportunity to do business with GB, although I read great things about products and service. Without weighing in on the man, I'd offer three points that don't tend to allow for any empathy on his behalf;

1. The lack of communication with most, if not all of the folks who sent him goods, or purchased goods and services from him, in regard to what may have happened to their items. While he doesn't owe the site at large an explanation, he ought contact those who gave him money or goods to explain what happened and how (if possible he can make it right).

2. The mods on this site have been nothing short of exemplary in conduct and management of Badgerandblade.com. I can only guess, but I think for them to create a very public posting indicating that they have had to expel a colleague from not only status as a vendor, but as a member of the site itself, speaks as to how egrigious the conduct must have been to cause it.

3. That there is a new site up and a facebook site established seems a solid slap in the face, when the possiblity exists that he may be selling/using some of the goods that belong to other people to promote his site. All while ignoring those who do try to contact him and deleting negative posts rather than dealing with those individuals one on one.

Like I said, far be it from me to judge the man, but his conduct seems beyond the pale and he seems the only one who won't acknowledge or address it. We've all got problems and I've yet to see a perfect life, but the recent history casts a lot of doubt on whether or not a sympathetic hand should be extended in his direction.

[Osborn Cox]

^^^^^^^^^amen brother

I'm all for affording some leeway to someone down on his luck, but it seems that time has come and gone without the slightest hint of apology or remorse.

[mr. s]

Agreed. Absolute slap in the face that he is starting up another company with no attempt at reconciliation.

[CapnPanther]

Yes, I have!

And, if you have, you will have noticed that I've posted in this thread before. I have not heard Ray's side of the story, and I don't know if anyone else has either, or even cares to... Until I have, I will decline making accusatory and inflammatory remarks about an otherwise good a decent individual that suffered financially crippling health problems...

I can only hope that if I was walking in Ray's shoes, that folks would do the same for me. But, judging by what I've read, that seems highly doubtful.

There is no other side to stealing from others. Given the generosity exhibited on this board, Ray could have made an honest, aboveboard appeal for help.

[mr. s]

He deleted my comments and blocked me from the facebook page.
We need other people to comment on the page.

WRITE A REVIEW ON THE FACEBOOK PAGE. It seems as though he can't block those.

[davecmu]

Strangely, he has now struck the "Gentlemen's Best" part from the Facebook page name. It is now just Lasers & Razors.

I'll be honest, that suggests he is trying to cover his tracks now that he realizes he has been found out, maybe in an effort to avoid responsibility for restitution for his previous behavior. Despite Loner16's insistence on the moral uprightedness of it in this situation, taking another's belongings is, at its base, theft.

Too bad that such a respected member has chosen this path of action.

[texaninkc]

Strangely, he has now struck the "Gentlemen's Best" part from the Facebook page name. It is now just Lasers & Razors.

I'll be honest, that suggests he is trying to cover his tracks now that he realizes he has been found out, maybe in an effort to avoid responsibility for restitution for his previous behavior. Despite Loner16's insistence on the moral uprightedness of it in this situation, taking another's belongings is, at its base, theft.

Too bad that such a respected member has chosen this path of action.

you weren't kidding. He deleted everything that would tie this new site to GB. He didn't delete the two negative reviews I see from two B&B members linking back to this post. I wonder if he can't delete them. If so, people should post there rather than trying to post in the wall where he can easily delete people's comments.

[davecmu]

you weren't kidding. He deleted everything that would tie this new site to GB. He didn't delete the two negative reviews I see from two B&B members linking back to this post. I wonder if he can't delete them. If so, people should post there rather than trying to post in the wall where he can easily delete people's comments.

The only thing remaining he can control is that he still has the old GB logo in his profile pictures album. Sad.

[bbarton713]

My review is still there but the other one is missing.

[insomniac]

Looks like he wiped his wall and discussion forum clean, but I'm not sure he has control over reviews.

He's got four one-star reviews now :thumbup:

[michiganlover]

Looks like he wiped his wall and discussion forum clean, but I'm not sure he has control over reviews.

He's got four one-star reviews now :thumbup:

Looks like the wall is in private mode, preventing anyone from posting to it. :mad3:

If everyone posted a negative review, it would certainly be beneficial. I think that is about all we can do at this point.

[insomniac]

Looks like the wall is in private mode, preventing anyone from posting to it. :mad3:

If everyone posted a negative review, it would certainly be beneficial. I think that is about all we can do at this point.

Make sure to write a review on Yelp as well.

[Loner16]

For those that have been truly wronged, and I genuinely feel for those that were, pursue your claim for restitution if you feel the need. There are avenues to do just that.
Otherwise, all I see is a crowd of internet bullies attempting to deny a man a living.

It's too bad that the internet is replete with those that feel the need to pile on an individual for any reason, whether real or perceived... Whether they have been personally wronged or not.

Thankfully, I can look myself in the mirror to shave everyday.

[Austin]

Gents, the mods have left this thread open as a place to disseminate information about your orders and razors. We do not condone attacks to GB. It's unfortunate that things have gotten to this point. I suggest if you have issues with GB you pursue civil or criminal measures to get restitution. Mob mentality or attacks will not get you restitution. It will only keep you enraged.

[Baloosh]

For those that have been truly wronged, and I genuinely feel for those that were, pursue your claim for restitution if you feel the need. There are avenues to do just that.
Otherwise, all I see is a crowd of internet bullies attempting to deny a man a living.

This is the only avenue remaining for many. Make no mistake, Ray brought these events upon himself, by his action (or inaction, depending on how you look at it).



It's too bad that the internet is replete with those that feel the need to pile on an individual for any reason, whether real or perceived... Whether they have been personally wronged or not.

Thankfully, I can look myself in the mirror to shave everyday.

So can everyone who has had items stolen by Ray, and by those who are actively trying to help get those items either returned or compensated. It's too bad that some are blaming these events on everyone else *but* the person responsible (Ray).


EDIT: After reading Austin's post, I agree. I'll stop posting in this one, since it's clear there are still strong feelings on either side. Good luck to all in finding closure.

[bbarton713]

I deleted my review because I didn't want it to be on my Facebook wall. I try to talk up B&B to friends and didn't like the idea of airing our dirty laundry.

[mr. s]

If anyone is enraged, I don't think that is healthy. Personally, I feel genuine concern for any and all who trust Ray with their money. I am also appreciative that we have the opportunity to inform one another on this thread and find out the avenues we can take for restitution.

How does one go about involving the law? I don't live in the states. Would it not be internet or credit card fraud?

[Antique Hoosier]

Gents, the mods have left this thread open as a place to disseminate information about your orders and razors. We do not condone attacks to GB. It's unfortunate that things have gotten to this point. I suggest if you have issues with GB you pursue civil or criminal measures to get restitution. Mob mentality or attacks will not get you restitution. It will only keep you enraged.

"He who laughs last, laughs best"

[Aaron622]

"He who laughs last, laughs best"

:lol::lol: nice.

[global_dev]

Is that the proprietor of "Gentlemen's Maybe not-so-Best"?

[nicknbleeding]

Is that the proprietor of "Gentlemen's Maybe not-so-Best"?

Yes that is Ray. I have delt with him in person and he is great to deal with. I understand when you get sick you need to focus on getting better. Now with that said. If there are still items that dont belong to him and he is trying to get back on his feet. Opening a new site. To me that seems like he is feeling better. I dont understand why, if he does still has items not belonging to him, that he just doesnt send them back. Maybe he doesnt know who they belong to. Paper work or emails missing. I dont know. Maybe send him a message in Facebook with a description of your items and see if you can get them back. He doesnt seem like the type that would willfully want to take someone elses items.

Noe if someone has recieved thier property back i wish they would let us know.

[CaptainK]

I will decline making accusatory and inflammatory remarks about an otherwise good a decent individual that suffered financially crippling health problems...
I can truly empathize with life threatening health problems and the financial chaos they can create. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. I have never wished for anything but the best for Ray, and I believe everyone here has said similar at one point or another.


I have not heard Ray's side of the story, and I don't know if anyone else has either, or even cares to...
I know you haven't heard Ray's side of the story. Neither has anyone else. That's where the problems start. From what I understand, he has had ample opportunities to let folks know what's going on. But he didn't take advantage of these, and instead chose to remain quiet. This is where his reputation as a good and decent individual started to crumble, and he has chosen to allow that to continue.

Even today, I am sure he could start turning things around and rebuilding his reputation as a decent and upstanding gentleman. All he need do is open the lines of communication.

[CaptainK]

Huh - looks like the Facebook page is gone. :blink:

[Obsessed]

I have not heard Ray's side of the story, and I don't know if anyone else has either, or even cares to... Until I have, I will decline making accusatory and inflammatory remarks about an otherwise good a decent individual that suffered financially crippling health problems...

I can only hope that if I was walking in Ray's shoes, that folks would do the same for me. But, judging by what I've read, that seems highly doubtful.


It's too bad that the internet is replete with those that feel the need to pile on an individual for any reason, whether real or perceived... Whether they have been personally wronged or not.

Thankfully, I can look myself in the mirror to shave everyday.

I resent the implication that I was piling on by posting the information I found, so I'll also point out Ray's personal Facebook wall (at least until he reads this and deletes the posts) indicates that he built himself a forge on or around April 9. It would thus appear that his health has improved.

I don't feel bad about trying to help people whose money and property have been stolen.

[insomniac]

I resent the implication that I was piling on by posting the information I found, so I'll also point out Ray's personal Facebook wall (at least until he reads this and deletes the posts) indicates that he built himself a forge on or around April 9. It would thus appear that his health has improved.

I don't feel bad about trying to help people whose money and property have been stolen.

It also looks like Ray has been busy making knives.

[Kevan]

I disagree with the mods in this instance. Though I can see how the "mob mentality" of posting bad reviews on his new shop's Facebook page is ungentlemanly, I think everyone who has been wronged by this man's unscrupulous behavior should post a poor review to warn off other people. Those who haven't had their property/money stolen should leave it alone, but I see nothing wrong in jilted customers airing their grievances.

[Austin]

I disagree with the mods in this instance. Though I can see how the "mob mentality" of posting bad reviews on his new shop's Facebook page is ungentlemanly, I think everyone who has been wronged by this man's unscrupulous behavior should post a poor review to warn off other people. Those who haven't had their property/money stolen should leave it alone, but I see nothing wrong in jilted customers airing their grievances.

I can live with that if you were personally affected by this guy. Otherwise, if you were not ripped off, don't post a phony review.


Edit: I only speak for myself and not the other mods.

[Kevan]

That's what I'm saying; people who were not ripped off leave it alone. I don't belong to Facebook and wasn't ripped off by Ray (I only ordered from him once, and that was right before this stuff began) so I can't post a review on his FB page but potential customers should be informed. It would be different if he were openly trying to resolve all his issues from the GB outstanding orders. So far he seems to be sweeping it under the rug and starting up a new business to boot.

[Saxmoore]

Perhaps the news crew that did the story on his shop would be interested in doing a story on his "new" shop?

[nicknbleeding]

WOW He did close his Facebook page. I wonder if its because i said to send him a message on FB about your things. Really shady!

[mark the shoeshine boy]

I can live with that if you were personally affected by this guy. Otherwise, if you were not ripped off, don't post a phony review.


Edit: I only speak for myself and not the other mods.

I agree on this....

[Antique Hoosier]

I can live with that if you were personally affected by this guy. Otherwise, if you were not ripped off, don't post a phony review.


Edit: I only speak for myself and not the other mods.

"this guy"? I understand that certain individuals and Moderators of our community would like to totally distance themselves from "this guy". "This guy" Ray, was banned and his actions as a vendor are horrendous. His discussion thread in the Merit Hall has been removed... that is a good start. Now, ban him from the Merit Hall all together. To have him in there alongside the Lady and Gentlemen who remain doesn't make sense. This isn't Ty Cobb we are talking about, but rather a person who better hope that those whose property was stolen don't take it to the next level and prosecute in a criminal or civil manner. True, I personally wasn't affected by any of Ray's actions. In fact, I sold him items on more than one occasion and had nothing but a GOOD outcome. I had considered sending him some razors and or placing an order with his now defunct business but didn't.

Moderators, Joel, Nick.... I strongly urge you to remove "this guy" from the Merit Hall. Thank you.

[Tha Baron]

Ever since the 30% off sale, this whole thing never smelled right. Not all that surprised by the new venture, but I am amazed at the blatant and intentional theft. Truly pathetic.

Makes me think of the Big Lebowski quote...

" It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh... "

[BlackAngus]

Ever since the 30% off sale, this whole thing never smelled right. Not all that surprised by the new venture, but I am amazed at the blatant and intentional theft. Truly pathetic.

Makes me think of the Big Lebowski quote...

" It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh... "

"I am the walrus?"

[goby]

I'm glad we got him to take down his Facebook page. He is a danger to the wetshaving community---a group of consumers that are forced to buy most of their products online.

Ray is a crook. He is a thief. We should not allow him to steal from fellow wetshavers and get away with it. We are protecting future customers.

My family went through a medical crisis. It was horrific, and was horrific for a long time. Me or my secretary regularly called clients and others to let them know that I had not forgot about them. They were all very understanding.

We have had medical emergencies on B&B. Sue passed away, Mama Bear had a fire, and another vendor got very sick (I forgot who). All it takes are emails, a public public post on their website, or a post here on B&B. We are a very understanding group.

[Dr.LeroyJeffries]

"Gentleman Ray" sounds like a real case of abuse of power , any ballpark figures of how many thousands of dollars this person stole from folks on this site ?

there is a threshold for small claims court lawsuits and this may quite exceed that


no need to turn the other cheek just becuase it is shaving goods , no pun intended

[Roobaix]

"Gentleman Ray" sounds like a real case of abuse of power , any ballpark figures of how many thousands of dollars this person stole from folks on this site ?

Ray was a great member of this community with many informative/helpful posts. I've met him on a few occasions and he was nothing but nice to me and we talked each others ears off about shaving and cigars. Many people either don't know that or are very quick to forget it.

I wasn't affected by this, and I'm not really sure what to think about the possibility of him continuing a business without any sort of restitution for the people that lost money or items to him. It bothers me, but I still have yet to hear his side of the story. I'm not about to run out with a pitchfork and hang him.

If people feel this truly is a case of blatant theft they should get the police involved. If a person broke into my house and stole items from us that would be the first thing I would do.

As far as a ballpark, not a clue. I'm not sure how many people actually placed orders or how many people sent razors in for honing.

[superspot]

Ray was the first person here on B&B i bought from. Whatever is wrong with him, I hope it works out and he comes back.

Take care "Thirdeye"

Richard

[luvmysuper]

This isn't a direct response to you - so please don't take it as such - I wanted to pull your quote to make a point.

Folks - stop, take a step back. This thread exists for 1 reason and 1 reason only. To inform the membership of news which can/will affect them, and to allow those affected to share their issues, again for ONE purpose, to inform the membership/community.

This is not a venue to bash someone, to make multiple follow-up posts after already voicing your situation, etc. If you're one of those individuals, stop doing so, before you have to be asked by a mod. We're all gentlemen, let's act accordingly.

Why should/do members have the ability to share their experiences without the vendor having the ability to respond? Well, because this individual did have the ability to address and rectify all issues, or respond to members. A large contingency of members (a small portion have come forward in this thread) have reported time and time again, unanswered emails, calls, etc. Posts made on this forum from his account making statements about all items having been shipped, and all communications to be returned, etc (which to my immense disappointment were moved out of the public's eyes by a mod) which conflict with what members have shared publicly, and myself and other mods privately. This is important... really important. 1. It allows members to band together to try to come up with a solutions/resolution if needed 2. It shows the community the experiences these members had, and helps explain why action was taken and lastly 3. It stands to warn prospective customers/members of issues. Hiding this, which might allow other members to have similar experiences, isn't viable.

This isn't fun, it isn't easy - but it is fair. There was considerable time and ability to service these customers/members, and remains no resolution from the vendor to these customers from what they have stated. Mods (multiple) made an attempt to help rectify this situation, and gave the vendor more than sufficient time to exercise upon outstanding issues. Rope was given, and the choice of hanging was not ours...

I'm reposting a comment Joel made early on in this thread. The highlighted portion is by me.

There are a few who keep coming back in here and making additional posts and comments. As per the direction in the post that Joel made, if you have posted and made the membership aware of your situation and your opinion, that's it.

If you are one of the guys who keep coming back in to make additional follow up posts, either for or against Thirdeye - knock it off. That isn't and never was the purpose of this thread.

[joel]

Guys - let's all step back for a moment and put this in perspective. No one, I mean NO ONE - not a single mod, nor member - is saying what happened to some of GB's customers is either fair or acceptable. No one - mod or member, is saying they don't empathize with folks who've been put in the position whereby they've purchased items which were never delivered, or WORSE yet - provided EXPENSIVE razors to have an inexpensive service performed, and never had their property returned.

What everyone IS saying, and where everyone IS in violent agreement - is the fact that what happened with Ray and the Gentleman's Best was horrifying, unexpected, and sad. Looking at some of the additional information and events shared in this thread has elevated the "status" of this situation to downright shameful - I think we're all in agreement there.

Stepping back however, everyone has to remember where we are and what's a productive course of action. This is B&B - an incredibly friendly, productive and revered community of gentleman, and it's all three of those aforementioned qualities for two reasons - #1 the incredible quality of our membership and #2 the tremendous amount of blood, sweat and tears the mods put in, primarily behind the scenes. Sometimes they/we have to step into issues like these, and make sure they stay on track and remain productive, and sometimes that can be unpopular, or come off the wrong way - but rest assured our efforts are sincere.

This situation has been dealt with. This announcement was stickied for over a month, we discussed the situation, the offending member/vendor is no longer a member of the community, and we've moved on. There has been some incredibly valuable and WELCOMED information added to this thread in subsequent weeks, and I understand tensions and emotions are high regarding this issue, but again - we're all gentlemen here and we want to keep our actions and comments gentlemanly. A heads-up to folks RE: this gentleman starting a new venture in the same market/industry is both welcomed and valuable. With the issues members have shared, we'd want to make sure any potential customers would be well aware of some of the outstanding problems/issues our membership has reported, to ensure our members can make informed decisions on who to do business with. On the other hand, comments mustering a "tar and feather" session, or suggesting folks write poor reviews of this gentleman's new venture (especially when folks who were not directly affected are likely to do so) and other unproductive "mob mentality" comments or calls to action, neither get anyone their money/items back, nor allow us to move onward in a gentlemanly manner. Frankly, it serves little value, other than rile up members, continue to wring out anger/emotion and make us think (and sometimes act) in an ungentlemanly manner - fueled by emotion.

Sharing factual information/data is why this thread exists and remains open. Should you wish to share the FACTS of your situation/dealings with this vendor/individual, this is the medium to do so. Should you wish to inform members of a new venture by this member, to be aware of - this is the medium to do so. Should you wish to inform members of any legal remedy you aim to seek, which can address other members outstanding issues, this is the medium to do so. Should you wish to add unsubstantiated commentary, personal opinion, arguments, suggested "revenge" activities not befit of gentlemen (and do not result in restitution), or other comments/dialogue not captured in the aforementioned categories in this paragraph, then this is not the right medium to do so. Just remember though - don't take it out on the mods - they're doing their best to keep the discussion moving in the right direction, and that's what they're here for. Should you have any disagreements or issues with what is considered a positive/productive direction for this conversation - direct them to me, as I had set the guidelines and made it clear what is (and isn't) considered acceptable in this thread.

Remember, we're all taking a swig of curdled milk, and we've all got a bad taste in our mouth. The goal is to do everything we can to help members who have been wronged attain restitution, inform existing (and new) members to help them avoid having a similar experience, empathize with your property and monetary losses and move on - but not at the cost of this sites morals/tone, and not at the expense of going down an ungentlemanly path.

This isn't a medium to tar and feather, this is a medium to inform and educate.

[Olive Drab]

what a shame. i shopped there in person last year and bought a few items which have run out. I was searching google for the address to stop by this week and came across this thread. I wish everyone the best in luck with this mess.