Newbie has some hone questions

[Shavely Manden]

I'm a straight newbie, and, with my first straight (the Heljestrand from the Octoberfest PIF), natchez was kind enough to include a nice Pike barber hone. (Have I mentioned that natchez is a real gentleman? :thumbup:) A few laps on that when my razor started pulling (newbie strop technique, probably) was enough to get me over my fear of honing, and now I'm almost more interested in hones than the razors themselves. I know I need to stick with occasional touch-ups on my barber hone until I get more experienced with straights, but I'm letting myself start reading up on hones (that I promise myself I won't buy for a couple of months, at least :lol:), and I had a few questions:

In section 7-1 of Joel's tutorial (http://www.badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28539), he straight-up recommends getting a Norton 4k/8k + a finishing stone, but in section 7-10 (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29575), he enthusiastically recommends a DMT 8k instead of the Norton. I'm a bit confused...should a newbie still get a Norton, since everybody seems to have one, or jump straight to the DMT, since it sounds like a better product at the same price?

Also, the Norton would require a lapping stone (and I'd need one if I wanted to eventually spring for, say, the Chinese 12k). Folks seemed to recommend the coarser DMT plates over the Norton flattening stone, but I was a bit confused as to the grit to use for that purpose. Craftsman Studio essentially says using anything finer than the Extra-Extra Coarse for lapping voids the warranty, but I think I've seen references to people using the Coarse or even Fine stones for lapping...is there any advantage to using a finer stone for flattening? Also, if one used a coarser DMT for lapping, could it also be used for, say, honing chips out of blades, or would the lapping forever ruin it for honing?

Thanks in advance for helping a noob's premature curiosity. Part of this is a desire to restore a razor that my girlfriend's parents are giving me (brownie points! :w00t:), but most of it is my love of fixing things...this could turn into a hobby all of its own...

[Luc]

The thing with a DMT plate is that it doesn't need lapping.

Depending on what you want to do with your hones, a DMT 8k + finishing stone can be enough.

If your goal is to hone out chips and reset bevels, you might want to consider a set of stones (1k, 4k, 8k, finisher). If you rather just maintain the edge, either the 4k/8k + finisher can do, but you will need something else to keep your 4k/8k/finisher flat or a DMT + finisher.

I currently have a DMT + finisher stone and it's perfect to maintain the edge.

On the other hand, a barber hone works fine too. I don't like the finish of a barber hone but that's me. YMMV.

[Utopian]

In section 7-1 of Joel's tutorial (http://www.badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28539), he straight-up recommends getting a Norton 4k/8k + a finishing stone, but in section 7-10 (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29575), he enthusiastically recommends a DMT 8k instead of the Norton. I'm a bit confused...should a newbie still get a Norton, since everybody seems to have one, or jump straight to the DMT, since it sounds like a better product at the same price?

It's pretty much a matter of personal taste. Either will work. Personally, I prefer the edge off of the Norton.

Also, the Norton would require a lapping stone (and I'd need one if I wanted to eventually spring for, say, the Chinese 12k). Folks seemed to recommend the coarser DMT plates over the Norton flattening stone, but I was a bit confused as to the grit to use for that purpose.
You can only use the Norton flattening stone on a waterstone. You definitely cannot lap a natural stone with it.

Craftsman Studio essentially says using anything finer than the Extra-Extra Coarse for lapping voids the warranty, but I think I've seen references to people using the Coarse or even Fine stones for lapping...is there any advantage to using a finer stone for flattening?
DMT says that you can use the XX for lapping any hone and that the 325 grit DMTC CAN be used for lapping waterstones, but not other hones. The only advantage of the finer plate is that the final scratch pattern on the hone will be slightly finer, but the scratches have no real effect on the function of the hone.

Also, if one used a coarser DMT for lapping, could it also be used for, say, honing chips out of blades, or would the lapping forever ruin it for honing?
Nope, even an XX can be used for honing out chips as long as it is followed by a more fine DMT or hone.

Thanks in advance for helping a noob's premature curiosity. Part of this is a desire to restore a razor that my girlfriend's parents are giving me (brownie points! :w00t:), but most of it is my love of fixing things...this could turn into a hobby all of its own...
If I got a razor from my inlaws, I would practice restoring a different razor first!

[life2short1971]

If your not buying another razor that is in need of some tlc I wouldn't spend the money. That barbers hone is all you need. You might want a coticle or a nani ss 12K for a nicer finish but even those are luxuries. I personally like coticle =sand Jnats. Mainly coticles because you can use them for just about any fixing to be done and the shave from one is the smoothest you'll find. If you would a shave off a coticle find a honemeister who finishes with one and let them sharpen your razor before you buy one to make sure thats a finish you like. There are other options but dollar for dollar the Coticule is your best value unless you luck up on something nice.

[Legion]

I have a Norton 4k/8k and it seems to work fine. You don't need a lapping plate, either. You can just use wet/dry sandpaper on a piece of glass if you want to.

[danjared]

If your not buying another razor that is in need of some tlc I wouldn't spend the money. That barbers hone is all you need. You might want a coticle or a nani ss 12K for a nicer finish but even those are luxuries. I personally like coticle =sand Jnats. Mainly coticles because you can use them for just about any fixing to be done and the shave from one is the smoothest you'll find. If you would a shave off a coticle find a honemeister who finishes with one and let them sharpen your razor before you buy one to make sure thats a finish you like. There are other options but dollar for dollar the Coticule is your best value unless you luck up on something nice.

You can use Japanese natural finishing stones for removing chips and the like, but it will be painfully slow unless you have a good set of nagura. But I have found using a botan for slurry is still slower than a coticule with thick slurry. That said, I still like using my Nakayama.

[life2short1971]

I have been playing with mine and yes i see what you mean about pianfully slow chip removal. I would use a different method than a JNat. That said I am starting to really like mine too. You can get entry level Jnat and some Naguras for about the same money as a Coticle unless you find a deal on either one. Although the chinese 12k is very inepensive as high grit hones go it is a finisher only and about the slowest stone going for that too I might add. What you save in money you will spend in time.

[danjared]

I have been playing with mine and yes i see what you mean about pianfully slow chip removal. I would use a different method than a JNat. That said I am starting to really like mine too. You can get any level Jnat and some Naguras for about the same money as a Coticle unless you find a deal on either one. Although the chinese 12k is very inepensive as high grit hones go it is a finisher only and about the slowest stone going for that too I might add. What you save in money you will spend in time.

If you're able to get an awasedo and nagura for the same price as a coticule, I'd like to know where! Well, assuming you're talking about high quality awasedo and Asano-stamped nagura.

[life2short1971]

I said entry level my friend. Oops it should have said entry not any. My bad

[BladeRunner001]

and now I'm almost more interested in hones than the razors themselves.


...and so it begins :biggrin1:

[mbrando]

Hi,

When I started my interest in honing I went with the norton combo set 220/1000 and 4000/8000. I already had a strop and swaty barber hone.

Then I seemed like I could do better. So I bought a Shapton M5 12,000. It turned out to be a soft stone. I did not like much. So I went for a natural chinese water stone too add to the set. It is supposed to be around a 12k. I added .3 micron lapping film and now am experimenting with a Maas pasted bench strop.

Since you will progress to where you feel you are producing an edge that works for you. I'd start with the 220/1000 and 4000/8000 norton set and finish on a the barber hone. You can invest more later.

- Mike

[Shavely Manden]

If I got a razor from my inlaws, I would practice restoring a different razor first!

Good point! I'm going to be scouring local antique stores soon -- their sticker prices on straights seem to be high-ish, but considering their willingness to haggle on DEs, they could probably be brought down to reason.

Thanks for all the advice, everybody. One question, though -- assuming I do want a hone that needs lapping (I'm still eyeing that Chinese 12k), does the grit of the lapping plate matter? I assume coarser grits will lap quicker, but would they give an inferior surface?

[life2short1971]

If your only buying and lapping one hone you can do it with wet dry sandpaper usually.