Help with apple cider/wine

[Phog Allen]

Evening gents. The wife and I were visiting a cousin of hers for Easter today and I noticed straight away that he had this nice, brand new fruit mill and press in his front yard. Immediately my thoughts went to making a nice hard cider this coming fall(lord help me through the coming hot months:frown: ) when the harvest starts coming in. This chap was most amenable to the idea and told me to grind away this fall. Now I've read a bit about making cider and it seems you need a good balance of apples for the must. Well, I guess it would be must if you use a wine yeast or is it a wort if you use an ale yeast? Suffice it to say that you generally need a 3-3-3 mix of sweet, sharp, and bittersharp type apples. Okay, sweet-ish dessert apples would work fine for one part I'm thinking. Without resorting to ordering special cider apples from somewhere else and incurring the shipping charges, do any of you know of common varieties here in the guts of the country(Kansas City area)that would suffice for the others? I have heard tell of using crab apples for the bittersharp portion and that would be a good option because we have a goodly number of crab apple trees around here. Besides my aunt's fabulous crab apple jelly, I know of not much use for these tangy little buggers.

I have made both beer and wine before but it has been a long time. It would seem that the apple juice is one of the easier products to ferment. Maybe that's why it and honey have endured all these years as alcoholic drinks. I have even considered doing two fermentations. One that is all apple juice and one that is a cyser. An apple and honey combo. We have a most accmodating local bee keeper who always has loads of honey on hand. I am especially intrigued by which yeast to use. Different types make very different ciders. A champagne yeast supposedly makes a very dry, light bodied cider and an ale would make a bit sweeter brew since it won't live at the higher alcohol content that the wine yeasts will tolerate. If you would care to offer up ANY ideas or links to this I would really appreciate it.

BTW, he ground a bunch of store bought apples today just for fresh juice for the kids. Wow, so much better than the bottled stuff. I was amazed at how much juice he was able to press from less than twenty pounds of apples. Easily over a gallon and maybe closer to two. The apple grinder is the only way to go. It made pressing the juice out super easy.

Regards, Todd

[galopede]

Hi Todd

I have a friend in the Forest of Dean, here in England which is cider making territory. Quite alcoholic, which is what I think Americans call Hard Cider? (we don't have any other type!) Here it's also called scrumpy.

His house came with an old cider mil and a large press so every year, we make about 4 forty gallon drums of cider and another 2 of Perry, which is a similar brew but made with pears rather than apples. I prefer the perry!

I don't know the availability of cider apples on your patch but I can tell you that you wouldn't want to eat a true cider apple as they are VERY sour! Oddly enough, when they've been milled and pressed, the juice is very sweet.

We don't use eating apples in cider as they make a very thin and tastless brew but we like our cider quite dry (can take the enamel off your teeth sometimes!) Your 3/3/3 mix would probably be a good start and you could adjust on the next brew. Crabs would certainly work as a fair proportion of the sharps. (crab apple jelly - mmmm)

The way it's made here in the West Country is simple. The apples are first crushed in the mill and then the resulting mush is piled into a sort of sacking material on the press, which is placed in a moveable frame to keep it tidy. The frame we use fits the square base of the mill and the wooden frame is about 8 inches high. When the frame and sacking is filled and levelled, the sacking is wrapped over the top of the apple and the frame is removed, placed on top and a new bit of sack placed in. These wrapped portions of apple are called Cheeses by the way.

I remember an old cidermaker on the tv about 30 years ago saying that they used the "brown rotten" apples but not the "black rotten"! we also seem to get a lot of wasps in our mix! They do like cider mills.

This goes on until we have a fair stack of cheeses, around 4-5 foot high. The press is then wound down and the juice appears. we keep collecting and winding down for several hours to squeeze out as much juice as possible.

The must is then poured into a selection of second hand 40 gallon plastic fruit juice and concentrate drums we've picked up form various factories. Traditionally it would be wooden barrels but they are hard to come by and expensive. Plastic drums work just fine.

Next, a few layers of cloth are tied over the filling hole to stop rubbish getting in and we wait for nature to take it's course!

No yeast is added to traditional cider but it might be safer if your natural yeasts are different to ours.

when the fermentation stops we just put the cap on and leave if for a few months.

Perry is made the same way.

it might be a good idea for you to make two brews with a different blend of apples to make a sweet and a dry version. You can then mix the ciders to your own taste.

Going back to that old farm hand talking about cider making and drinking at the turn of the last century. Farm hands drank a lot of cider and beer in the fields. he was talking about a famed drinker in his part of Somerset. "Arr, John looked his cider. Drank six or seven pints in the morning, and another six or seven in the afternoon. in the evening he'd have a proper drink and have another ten or so. Good bloke John, dead now..."

Gareth

[Phog Allen]

Hello Gareth. Thank you for the response. I knew that cider had a good followng in England as well as Brittany. I am thinking strongly of using your technique of letting the natrural yeasts on the apple must do the fermenting work. Two things will need to be thought out before I do this. Even in September we can have days approaching 30C. This may play havoc with nartural yeasts at that time of year and they may not be able to out muscle the mold spores. Did I mention mold? We have this incredibly humid atmosphere here in the summer. I mean it is nothing to in the mid 90s F and have humidity levels well over 60%. It is why I dread the summer so. The sticky heat really kicks my arse. Anyway, suffice it to say that mold runs amuck and I fear a natural fermentation may wind up being drain cleaner. If I do go for a pitched yeast, I am hesitant to pasteurise beforehand. I don't want to destroy the natural flavours of the apple must.

I am most intested in perry as well. I love pears and this sounds delicious. BTW, there are a couple of English commercial ciders available here locally. One of them is Strongbow. I know nothing of it except it comes in yellow and black cans(1 U.S. pint-16oz.) in a four pack. It's a bit pricey at about $2.50 per can. If someone would hazard an opinion of this before I go buy it, I would apprreciate it.

Regards, Todd

[Lynchmeister]

Todd,

My fiancee's go-to drink of choice is Strongbow. She doensn't drink beer and has found this to be a good equivalent in terms of "social drinkablity", if that makes sense.

Compared to Woodchuck or Hornesby ciders (also available in US), which are sweeter, she is partial to the much dryer Strongbow and even goes as far as to put a wedge or slice of lemon in it!

[Ginns]

Cider making, like winemaking, has been around for a LONG time. I have limited experience with Cider, but a lot with wine. When processes exist for so long, they often evolve in very important ways over time. Ways are found to make things easier, more reliable, or just plain better. There are most often good reasons to respect and adhere to practices that have evolved over thousands of years (in the case of wine).

About using indigenous (natural, present-on-the-fruit yeasts):

There are many genera of yeast which can ferment sugar to produce alcohol, Hanseniaspora, Candida, Pichia, Saccharomyces among many others. All have been EXTREMELY well studied. Many of them can NOT ferment beverages up to 12-14% alcohol, and die off anywhere from 3% to 9% alcohol. The major problem is that while they ferment sugar to alcohol, they also produce secondary metabolites that cause off-flavours in your ferment. Saccharomyces is the yeast used in both beer and wine, although the species and strains are very different. But it is the ONLY genera used in wine, because it produces the highest amount of alcohol and the lowest amount of off-flavours. The problem is that Sacch. is only present naturally on the fruit in numbers of about 5 - 30 cells / mL of pressed juice. The others are around a few MILLION cells / mL. This means the bad guys outnumber the good guys a few million to one. Not good for your ferment.

I would STRONGLY recommend that you use a yeast purchased from a local "make your own" wine shop. The brewer can help you choose a strain. You probably want a good, strong, fast fermenter. I would recommend strain EC 1118.

The Difference Between OK Wine and Good Wine:

Sulfur Dioxide (called SO2 for short) is added to ALL COMMERCIAL WINES IN THE WORLD (with EXTREMELY rare exceptions), most juices, and many fruits and vegetables, especially in packages. It is a VERY safe and relatively natural (non-toxic, non-synthetic, non-carcinogenic, etc) preservative.

It acts as both an anti-oxygen agent (reacts with oxygen and gets rid of it) and also an anti-microbial agent. Oxygen is bad in your ferment, and in your fresh-pressed juice, as it starts to oxidize your flavour molecules. You told us how much you liked the taste of the fresh-pressed juice, right? What happens over the next few hours when it starts to taste not-as-good, is oxidation, and it CAN be prevented, by adding SO2. SO2 also acts as an anti-microbial, helping to kill off some of the "bad guys" in your ferment, so your yeast has a better fighting chance. Saccharomyces can tolerate up to 50 ppm SO2, which means you can EASILY throw in 40 ppm SO2 IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU PRESS. Throw it into the pail/jug that will recieve the pressed juice, so it starts to work immediately. You will end up with the freshest, cleanest tasting cider possible (given the fruit you are working with). You can buy SO2 as "Potassium Metabisulphite" from a make your own wine shop. The brewer should be able to help you out with calculating how much to add to get a given ppm level. If not, PM me and I can calculate it for you.

SO2 IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR WINE/CIDER. IT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOME-MADE "CRAP" AND GOOD STUFF. I CAN NOT STESS THIS ENOUGH.

Most home-doers do not use it, because it requires some figuring out to calculate ppm level, and understand the chemistry you are working with. But it is easy with a bit of know-how. Many people "set in their ways" may tell you not to add it, that they haven't heard of that before, or that adding ANY chemicals to your drink, no matter how time-proven and safe, is a bad idea. I would emplore you to use your best judgement, and do what we as a species know is the right way.

If you have any questions about SO2 or anything else related to winemaking, don't hesitate to post here, or PM. I love to help out when I can, and would gladly even provide custom-calculations for you if a local brewer could not be of assistance.

I hope this has given you some insight, and I wish you all the best of luck in your endeavor. When you make cider/wine you are participating in one of the oldest rituals of our species, and the feeling of sipping something you have made from fruit to glass yourself is truly beautiful. Have fun!

[Phog Allen]

Hi Cory. Glad to hear it. I suspected it was of the drier variety. I don't know why but I get the impression, maybe erroneously, that most of the English and Continental ciders are closer to dry than sweet. I could be all wrong about that. I may give that Strongbow a try. I have had the Woodchuck's and it was okay but if memory serves, I didn't get too excited about it. Thanks for the input.

Regards, Todd

[Phog Allen]

Ginns, I most appreciative of your reply. When you speak of S02 I am guessing you are talking about the same thing as "Camden tablets"? Yes/no? If so, then yes I am familiar with using them. In fact the chap who taught me to make wine very much insisted on them. His take was the same as yours. Hence my fear of making a subpar product with natural fermentation. Every region in the world is somewhat of it's own micro ecology/climate. Here in the guts of the U.S. it is erratic weather changes with super hot and humid summers. I have met folks from all over the place who have ZERO sinus and allergy problems who simply cannot take the pollen and mold count here. We have wildly varying temperatures and air conditions. Two weeks ago it was touching the upper 70's every day and then last week it cooled off. I mean it COOLED off. Yesterday was one of the coldest Easter Sundays on record. I had been in the 30's/40's all last week and then dropped to about 15F overnight the last few days. The wind chills were down in the single digits. South and west of here a few miles they had 6" of snow. So, all this heat/rain/humidity/dampness leads to some serious mold and spore problems.

I would personally hesitate to try the natural fermentation here. What I did not want to do was pasteurise. The S02 is a good bet. When you figure the amount you need, is it based on specific gravity of the must or does volume make the difference? I believe the chap who showed me the way used two Cambden tabs per five gallon batch as rule of thumb. I don't much care for rules of thumb when it comes to this. I've tasted some wines that were way over done with the Camden tabs. It did not tasted good. I would be more than happy for you to provide some information about this. Thanks again for the help.

Regards, Todd

[galopede]

Hello again Todd. I didn't know it would be that hot at harvest time with loads of mould spores! get a good yeast and perhaps even an airlock if you can buy or make one.

The weather here in cider country, England, at harvest time is comfortable in the days with cold nights. Certainly not in the 90s!

Strongbow is looked down on as artificial cider, full of additives and sugars to build the alcohol up as they add quite a bit of water to the must at Bulmers, Gord bless 'em.

I find it a bit sweet but they class it as a dry cider and I'm used to the proper stuff. My favourite commercial cider is Weston's from Much Marcle, Hereford. it's a small family business and I very much doubt it would make it over there. Lovely stuff and their perry is to die for!

The biggest seller at the moment is an Irish cider called Magners in the UK. Very sweet and nasty! Funnily enough, it's called Bulmer's in Ireland, the people who make Strongbow, as it's the same company as the Hereford Bulmers. They've been making cider in Clonmel, Ireland for many years. It's a triumph of advertising over quality, selling at half as much again as the same thing made by Bulmers of Hereford. The kiddies buy it by the gallon as they are easily influenced by advertising. Bulmers are competing against themselves! Makes oi laarf...

By the way, another thing a decent cider needs is plenty of tannin, which is present in cider apples but not a lot in eaters. Crabs have quite a bit so if you have a ready supply of crabs, use 'em!

Gareth

[Phog Allen]

Thanks Gareth. Good information all around. Yep, it gets bloody hot here on the prairie. While 90's are not super common after the fall equinox, they sometimes persist till the first week of October. I can't stand it. I've lived my entire life in this area and I still can't get used to the infernal humidity! The older I get the worse it bothers me. So yes, mould spores run rampant till the air dries out with the changing of the jet stream. I have been tickled pink the last week and a half at our "misfortune" of having a bunch of days in the upper 40's. It makes grand sweater and woolen cap weather. I wish it would persist till May!

BTW, apple harvest time runs a LONG time here. We get apples all year round(I don't know the particulars of where)but yes, the main harvest time is fall. The best come on in late September early October but it seems the earlier the heat leaves, the better the apples are. So the airlock is must. I have several laying about. Looks like a good wine yeast is in the mix as well. Last september was a real bollocksed up month. It stayed WAY above avarage(lots of 80's) till mid October. We then had a fine regular winter and it has been a cool spring so far other than a two week period of upper 70's and humidity. We'll see how many apple trees lost their buds in this litte mini freeze we had last fortnight.

I shall ask at our local spirits shop for the Weston's. A LONG shot to be sure but if any business can get it, they can.

Regards, Todd

[Lynchmeister]

Strongbow is looked down on as artificial cider, full of additives and sugars to build the alcohol up as they add quite a bit of water to the must at Bulmers, Gord bless 'em.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't tell my fiancee. :whistling:

[galopede]

Yep, it gets bloody hot here on the prairie. While 90's are not super common after the fall equinox, they sometimes persist till the first week of October. I can't stand it. I've lived my entire life in this area and I still can't get used to the infernal humidity! The older I get the worse it bothers me.

I think I'll stay here then! I'm a Welshman and we are born waterproof not heatproof!

The apples and pears come in from September/October here, though with all the talk of global warming, who knows! I reckon apples from cooler climes are the best! producing all tear round just ain't natural!

Gareth

[_JP_]

When making apple wine, you want to start the fermentation with 100% apples, not just the juice! It is common for fruit wines to start off with fermenting whole fruit. Here's a simple recipe for a medium style apple wine that should be delicately flavored with a faint cidery bouquet. Proper wine making tools can help, but aren't necessary.


18 lbs Apples
2 1/4 lb Sugar (to the gallon of juice
Sauternes Wine Yeast (recommended, other types can work)
1 gallon Water

Chop the apples into small pieces. Put the apples, yeast, and water into your primary fermentation tub and cover to keep the bugs out. (The water will not cover the apples. Let it go for a week, stirring several times so that the apples on the bottom come to the top. Now strain and press out the juice. Add 2 1/4 lb sugar to every gallon of juice that you get and put it into your air lock sealed secondary fermentation vessel. Rack as needed. The wine should be ready in six months, but improves if you can give it a year.

I'll post a dry apple wine recipe also if someone wants it. It's a little different, involves boiling and a different combination of ingredients.

[Phog Allen]

Hi JP. Very interesting. When I made a sparkling blueberry wine a number of years ago, I used a "fruit pack" from a brew and wine making store. This was a #10 sized can filled with blueberries packed in what I assume was a sugar syrup. Very thick and not really pourable. If memory serves, I added simple sugar syrup to increase the specific gravity. It worked famously. However, I hesitate to add sugar of any kind to this apple wine/cider/brew or whatever you want to call it. I would like to see the specific gravity of the must first. If it is below .1050, which I strongly suspect it will be, I may go the honey route to increase the gravity. If you can explain the 2-1/4 lb. of sugar per gallon of juice ratio, it would help me a bit to understand better. I'm not in any way questioning your judgement, only trying to figure out if this is rule of thumb thing or if you are aiming for a very sweet product. My goodness, for a five gallon batch that is 11-1/4 lbs. of sugar!

As to fermenting with the chunks of apple, I would certainly like to do this as the skins contain most of the tannins I'm thinking. A question. Do you try to strain out the seeds before pitching the yeast? I have been under the impression that fermenting seeds and especially something like a peach pit is a big no no. Any problems with the apple seeds?

When I did the blueberry wine, I started it in a food grade ten gallon fermenting barrel. The fruit was put in a nylon mesh bag so as to keep from having to try to separate it from the must after the intial fermentation. This was covered by a lid for the first twentyfour hours or so till it really started bubbling, then I covered it with a dense netting to keep out the beasties. After the really heavy duty, bubbling, foaming fermentation was over 72 hours later, I wrung out the bag of fruit as best I could by hand into the must and racked it all to a five gallon carboy. This was fitted with an air lock and left for 30 days. Another racking to a clean carboy and another 30 days wait. A final racking to yet another carboy and 30 days later I bottled it in cap-able sparkling wine bottles. Yep, I sparkled it even though everyone told me I was crazy. It dissapeared so fast amonst my skeptical friends that I barely got any for myself! Thanks again to all who are replying to this thread. I have a feeling this will be a super nice project for the fall. Never to early to start planning. Besides, it will give me time to find a source for the bittersharp apples. Heck, I'll likely have to make ten gallons just to manage some for myself.

Regards, Todd

[galopede]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't tell my fiancee. :whistling:

Don't worry, it's for our eyes only! There are even worse ciders here that make Strongbow seem good.

Cheap, nasty cider has always been one of the medicaments of choice for our winos.:w00t: They now make so called "White Cider" which is very strong and almost tastless. Very popular amongst the kids and the winos. I think they must throw in an apple per gallon of water and top up with sugar syrup.

Gareth

[Ginns]

Campden Tablets

Says on the web that they are potassium metabisulphite (KMS), which is the stuff I was talking about. The tablets are just an "easier" way to add it to the wine, you can also buy powdered KMS. But then you have to weigh it out yourself, at least to the hundredth of a gram.

It is based only on volume of the wine, not on specific gravity. Specific gravity relates only to the amount of sugar you have in your wine, and how much alcohol you will have at the end.

It is good to hear you will not be trying a natural ferment. Like you said, a good shot of SO2 as soon as you crush will be a great help to knock some of the bad guys down.

To use the tablets effectively, you must know how much SO2 each tablet has. To know this you need to know what weight of KMS each tab has. This may say "each tab has .55 grams KMS", or "tabs are .69 grams, and are 57% KMS".

The tabs would be easier for you if you do NOT have a scale that will go to a couple decimal places of a gram. If you DO have that scale, the powder may be easier.

So go out and get your tablets, and check the package to see what the weight is of each tablet, and what percent is KMS. You want 40 ppm SO2. That is 0.04 grams per litre.

You will also need to buy an SO2 test kit, apparently only about 10$ US. You can NOT let your SO2 get too high or the ferment will not go at all. From what I have read, 1 tablet per gallon ends up giving you 67 ppm, which is way too high. Apparently they just let it die off for a couple days and then innoculate, but it would be better to just add the right amount in the first place and start the ferment immediately. Also, you must re-adjust the SO2 as time goes on, and this can ONLY be done by first testing how much SO2 is still in your wine from the last time you added it. Over time it diminishes, but how much and how quickly it diminishes always varies. Any time it is exposed to oxygen it diminishes, racking, bottling, even lifting the lid, etc. But you MUST test it. If you let it get too high, by just adding it whenever you "feel" like you should, it can make a HORRIBLE flavour, and can be toxic when it's at very high levels. Just like anything else. Peanut butter is safe, but eating 20 lbs of it is not. Even pure water can kill you in too high a dose (not a joke).

Here is a site with some info on SO2, test kits, etc. You can PM me or post here for some help calculating how much KMS or how many tabs to add to your wine if you wish, but I'll need to know the weight of your tabs and percent KMS.

One thing you should know is that the amount you will be working with is EXTREMELY SMALL. Let's say you have 5 gallons of wine. To get 30 ppm SO2, you will only add 0.83 GRAMS of KMS. That is like half a fingernail clipping. So you know what to expect; it will be SUPER small quantities.

When it comes to making a sterilizing solution, to clean your carboys, pails, and ANYTHING THAT WILL TOUCH THE WINE, it is far better to just use the powder. The brewer will give you instrucions such as "1 tsp per gallon" or something like that to make a sterilizing solution to rinse everything with as a last step in cleaning (then rinse with water one last time to get the SO2 out). No need to get Campden tablets for this, as accurate measurement is NOT necessary, just has to be super strong. Watch your nostrils, do not inhale. This stuff will burn your lungs for hours if you huff it too strongly.

http://winemakermag.com/mrwizard/142.html

Good luck.

[Crag]

Just thought to add my .02 cents. I grew up in a little town outside Fort Smith Arkansas called Huntington. Every year my GrandDad and I would make what he called "Sippin Cider", and I can tell you that it was darn good, and we could also use it to start the tractor!

We would mash a 1 to 3 mix barely of rotten apples to hard Pippin apples and stack the mash in cheese cloth. Once the clothing was done we would wind the press around it and collect the must. We then put it in old Whiskey Casks, (many of which were around since prohibition) and add a dash of yeast and let it sit about 3 months. When the top came off the cask we would filter the cider, Hard Pastuerize it, and bottle it for consumption and sale.

This cider is very smooth, but hard as heck, and is great for sipping when chilled on a hot summer day...THIS WAS NOT A WINE or anything like that...It was Southern Sippin Cider, and my Grand Dad did the same process with his Grand Dad who did it with his, and so forth since before the Civil War.

Easy Peasy!

Enjoy!

[galopede]

Southern Sippin Cider sounds just like West Country Scrumpy as I described above! Don't know about starting your tractor with it but you could certainly remove the paint or degrease the engine before you worked on it!

Gareth

[Lynchmeister]

Don't worry, it's for our eyes only! There are even worse ciders here that make Strongbow seem good.

Cheap, nasty cider has always been one of the medicaments of choice for our winos.:w00t: They now make so called "White Cider" which is very strong and almost tastless. Very popular amongst the kids and the winos. I think they must throw in an apple per gallon of water and top up with sugar syrup.

Gareth

:eek: :eek: *Memories of a semester in Scotland flooding in* :eek: :eek:

Would you happen to be familiar with one called/branded "White Lightning?" It came in a 2 (possibly 3) liter blue plastic bottle and cost something like 75p...

...hehe, now this has got me thinking of all the "purple tin" references in all of those Irvine Welsh novels I've been reading...nothin' like a little White Lightning and Tennant's Extra-Super-Duper Strength Lager to chase those nasty, hungover memories of the night before away.

[galopede]

White Lightning is probably the best known of the wino ciders. As you say, they are fond of the Tennant's Super and a few other of those high strength lagers. I did try a can of Carlsberg Extra once and it was foul!

White Lightning for breakfast! AAAArrrghh...

Gareth

[Phog Allen]

Just thought to add my .02 cents. I grew up in a little town outside Fort Smith Arkansas called Huntington. Every year my GrandDad and I would make what he called "Sippin Cider", and I can tell you that it was darn good, and we could also use it to start the tractor!

We would mash a 1 to 3 mix barely of rotten apples to hard Pippin apples and stack the mash in cheese cloth. Once the clothing was done we would wind the press around it and collect the must. We then put it in old Whiskey Casks, (many of which were around since prohibition) and add a dash of yeast and let it sit about 3 months. When the top came off the cask we would filter the cider, Hard Pastuerize it, and bottle it for consumption and sale.

This cider is very smooth, but hard as heck, and is great for sipping when chilled on a hot summer day...THIS WAS NOT A WINE or anything like that...It was Southern Sippin Cider, and my Grand Dad did the same process with his Grand Dad who did it with his, and so forth since before the Civil War.

Easy Peasy!

Enjoy!

Thanks Matt. Another nice way to try this. I have a friend whose dad grew up in Mountain Home Arkansas. They may well have heard of this style of cider too. I'll ask.


Southern Sippin Cider sounds just like West Country Scrumpy as I described above! Don't know about starting your tractor with it but you could certainly remove the paint or degrease the engine before you worked on it!

Gareth

Gareth, I love the constant reminders of my Celtic/Anglo background and how I keep discovering that many of the things passed down through my family(especially foods)are directly descended from the isles.

Again, thanks to all who are sharing this great information with me. I foresee a total triumph this fall. Of course, sometimes you wind up with drain cleaner!:w00t:

Regards, Todd