Mantic's Musings: Fusion, Proraso, and What's Next?

[mantic]

Gentlemen--

A number of recent developments in wetshaving have brought us to a cross-roads. Perhaps its time to enlist the collective knowledge and wisdom of the wetshaving community, put on our thinking caps, and ponder "what's next?"

Of course, two significant developments have occurred over the past couple of months, one "hardware" and the other "software:" the introduction of the new Gillette "Fusion" razor, and the introduction of Proraso in (US) Target department stores.

The introduction of the Gillette Fusion has been met with almost universal disdain from the traditional wetshaving community. As near as I can tell, opinion on the wetshaving discussion boards has been running about 15% "pro" and 85% "con." The opinion of the general public has been difficult for me to guage, and I imagine it will take several months for solid information to percolate out (even to Gillette). Anecdotally it appears that Fusion has been met with relative disinterest and even some ridicule from the "water cooler gang." The two-year old article from The Onion has taken on a whole new meaning.

On the other hand, the introduction of Proraso at Target stores has been met with almost universal praise from the traditional wetshaving community. Here is "one of our own" in the unfamiliar isles of a mainstream department store! In terms of public exposure to a "quality" shaving kit (relatively speaking), this event rates right up there with the Weekend Today Show segment on wetshaving of over a year ago.

How are we to reconcile these two developments? What opportunity's (or risks!) exist? What next step should--or could!--the traditional wetshaving community consider? Here are some I see:

First, the introduction of the Fusion could provide an opportunity for an enterprising person or group to introduce, or re-introduce, "competetive" hardware. For example, could both the Fusion introduction and the Proraso introduction be capitalized on by distributing inexpensive DE's from Wasai or Parker (or even the plastic Zorrik) to mainstream department stores as a "spa" or "retro" shaving kit? Could a "new" DE razor be developed that used a pivoting head mechanism like the Sensor/Mach3/Fusion? What about the Injector-style "clones?"

Second, could the introduction of Proraso in a mainstream department store actually be harmful to the mid-range internet vendors such as Em's, QED, Classicshaving, etc.? Because this effectively reduces their mix of products, will they have to make an effort to "brand" and promote their own products (Em's skin care, QEDman, Classicshaving shave soap, etc.) or risk getting squeezed out of business? Or will they always remain a "niche"?

Third, what can we do as the traditional wetshaving community to promote the expansion of our "hobby?" Should we direct a letter-writing campaign praising Target for their decision? Should we offer ourselves as instructors for life-enrichment classes that many communities offer? Should we do nothing and hog the best stuff for ourselves? :tongue:

With about 1000 total members of the internet wetshaving community wandering through a number of websites (SMF, B&B, MSN, ME, etc.), I'd be interested in your thoughts (even if its "dang, you think too much. Its just shaving").

--Mark

[guenron]

Hi Mark,
Good to see you posting. While I find your musings most interesting, I think you are making a bit much of the two (NON)events. The Gillette Fusion, or as I prefer to call it the FUZZ-ON, may be the greatest thing since canned dog food and sliced bread, but its consumable prices are far to grand even for such a grandiose hardware statement as the FUZZ-ON.
I have a tub of the Proraso soap and the delightful crema dopobarba that I find to be a good combination to use. First, I find it unfortunate that this (formerly) niche product will probably disappear from the lists of products offered by our e-tailing community, but worse than that, for the frugal this will be as far as they probably will ever go. While I enjoy my Proraso shaves, if that was all I had to use, I would probably end up turning my Feathers loose on my wrists. Talk about eucalyptus becoming B-O-R-I-N-G. (especially in the winter)
That's my take on it for what it's worth.:001_smile

[mantic]

Hi Mark, Good to see you posting.
Yeah, I need to post here more often. I'm actually here almost every day, I'm just too lazy to log in. :blushing:

--Mark

[Nick]

Mark,

I think it's perfectly healthy to examine the nature and state of the industry.

As far as the Fusion is concerned, it's just further proof that Gillette and Schick are committed to the path they're on, and that none of the heavy hitters (or anyone else that has the potential to act) sees enough money in DEs. The appeal of the 3/4/5 bladed razor is that it gives a brainless, fast, close shave. The DE isn't brainless. There's a steep learning curve compared to a Mach 3/Fusion. The two apppeal to largely different market segments. The Fusion is a mass market razor. The DE isn't. Because it isn't, I just don't see it being offered in a high volume, mass market store like Target. Proraso is different and not constrained by the same rules as it can be used by the mass market and this small niche group.

With regards to Proraso and our favorite retailers, I don't see how them effectively being cut out of the circle with regards to Proraso can be good for them. For me though, it's sort of like Home Depot vs. your local hardware store. Could I stop by Target and buy Proraso? Probably, but can the pimply faced geek in a red vest even pronounce Proraso, let alone give me advice with regards to shaving? Probably not.


Third, what can we do as the traditional wetshaving community to promote the expansion of our "hobby?" Should we direct a letter-writing campaign praising Target for their decision? Should we offer ourselves as instructors for life-enrichment classes that many communities offer? Should we do nothing and hog the best stuff for ourselves? :tongue:
Without making judgement towards the guy, Corey had it right in this regard. The best thing we can do is educate the mass market, and for each 1 in 20 who didn't know about proper wet shaving before, and for whom that message resonates, they'll do some research, and they'll give it a shot.

There does seem to be one universal truth to all of this though; Most of those who are or were once new to wet shaving stumbled across the art after becoming fed up with the shaving status quo. When that happens, we'll be here.

-Nick

[Hephaestus]

Third, what can we do as the traditional wetshaving community to promote the expansion of our "hobby?" --Mark

I’m not so sure that wet shaving is a thing that can successfully be promoted. To me, the decision to spend the time learning how to master a traditional wet shave is not a local one, but rather a broader ideological characteristic. Many people are only concerned with convenience and speed- for these people, shaving will always be a chore. Whereas some choose to take pride in such tasks, and find the added time and effort to be worthwhile.

I know a lot of guys that complain about the nuisance or the quality of their shave, but most are not prepared to do anything about it. ‘I don’t have time’ seems to be the standard dismissal. To me, this ideology is tragic. By taking pride in the shaving ritual (or any other), one can transform an inconvenience into a pleasure. Instead of “wasting” an extra few moments, one gains some added enjoyment.

This schism extends far beyond shaving. For example, I notice that several here are also fountain pen enthusiasts. To me, writing with a nib that compliments your writing, on decent paper, with a shade of ink that you love, adds so much to the writing process. It is not a labour, but a pleasure- and is the reason that I still send ‘snail-mail’ whenever I can.

Sure, there will be a few people that may be ‘converted’ to wet shaving. However, I get the feeling that these people would have found their way regardless, based on the ideology above. At core, it boils down to the difference between people who are only fixated on the destination (or goal), and those people who are interested in the path that takes them there.

-Ryan

[mantic]

I’m not so sure that wet shaving is a thing that can successfully be promoted.
I understand what you're saying, but I must (respectfully) disagree. In my own case, I was completely ignorant of wetshaving until three years ago...I never even knew it existed. I "learned" shaving (such as it was) with a Norelco electric; I tried an Atra and Edge in college (late 70's) but had no idea what I was doing and quickly went back to the Norelco.

Had I known of traditional wetshaving--or at least been taught the proper way to shave with a blade--I would've "converted."

There will always be those who will just want a fast shave and will put up with getting a five o' clock shadow by two, but I think the recent flood of "newbies" partly due to the Fusion is an indication that "the word" can be spread.

--Mark

[htownmmm]

Mark,


Gillette and Schick can keep trying to one up each other on blades for all i care-eventually they will get to the 10-bladed monster and everyone will recognize them as mass producers of weapons of destruction.

i for one am thankful that tarjay has decided to carry proraso-this way, i can try out something (w/o the wait) and then go deeper into my new hobby, addiction, whateva....

maybe tarjays decision will encourage others of the wetshaver purveyors to offer their products somewhere that the masses can reach; this may lead to an increase in the need/desire to improve their shave.

when i was in my teens. i used to wetshave, but i believed the hype and switched to the foam and the cartridge. funny, how as we get older we get wiser. now i'm back to wetshaving(properly) and will do so until my last breath.

the easiest way to convert others to wetshaving is to offer to wetshave them once- trust me, one shave and they will b hooked. then send them to tarjay and turn them loose.


marty

[JeffS]

Sure, there will be a few people that may be ‘converted’ to wet shaving. However, I get the feeling that these people would have found their way regardless, based on the ideology above. -Ryan

I'm only a recent convert to wet shaving, and I would probably still be on the cartridge or electric path, but for a happy accident. On another forum I read, somebody was reviewing the the new Gillette marketing gizmo, er, I mean fusion. A few of the others on the site, touted the virtues of shaving with a DE, and pointed a link to SMF. I found this place from a link over at SMF, and now I'm spending too much time reading shaving forums. :biggrin: but I digress.

When I was young, I wasn't taught how to shave. My dad handed me an electric razor, and said there's the plug, here's the power button, go to town. Not the best way, but it got me out the door and ready for school quickly. At the time I only needed every few days anyway, so not a big deal.

Later I upgraded to a better electric. It was cordless, and had many spinning pivoting heads, so it must have been an improvement. I used this until the battery wouldn't hold a charge, and couldn't even be used while plugged in.

In despair, and lack of funds, I went out and bought a razor. If I recall correctly, it was the sensor excell, or something like that. I figured out how to use it on my own (I was no longer living at home), and contined shaving that way for years. It wasn't a close shave, and it gave me razor burn, but I thought that was just part of shaving. Later still, I bought a new electric, mostly to save time. I got razor bumps from that as well. I used both on various days depending on how close of a shave I needed (date or no date).

Now, I landed on these forums, and have learned the ways of true shaving. Ok, I haven't learned them entirely, but I'm on the path. I had heard of wet shaving, but didn't know anything about it until recently. I saw one my grandfathers old DE's before, and asked my mom about them back when I was little. She said it was a razor, but it was hard to use, easy to cut yourself. I now disagree with that, though there is a learning curve.

The older I get, the more I reject change for the sake of change. I liked my old Western Electric princess phone with the 4 prong plug. It worked great, you could always hear it ring from any room in the house, and there wasn't a battery to die on you in the middle of a conversation. I now have nothing but cordless, and cellular at home. It's a convevience, but it's not an improvement.

I'm glad I discovered wetshaving, and plan to continue doing it until the end. However, I don't know that I'd be here now if it weren't for wanting to find out whether or not to blow more money on the latest shaving "advancement" from Gillette.

-Jeff

[javyn]

I think that the Fusion and Proraso in Target are definately linked. Everywhere you look you are reading and hearing on the news how men are becoming more and more 'metro', caring how they look and whatnot.

Love it, hate it, or just don't care about it (where I am) regarding the Fusion, Gillette took a big risk putting their money and effort into this trend. They were willing to risk it on the belief that men were ready to spend outrageous amounts of money for 5 bladed razor cartridges, if it meant a more luxurious grooming experience, and it looks so far like they were right.

Now that that barrior has been broken by Gillette's pioneering, retailers are going to be riding on their coattails to capitalize on men's new openness to higher end grooming supplies.

Love the Fusion or hate it, I think its success can only be good for us. I've never used it, and don't plan on it, but could care less if 99.999% of men buy it. I still have my DEs, and kind of like being in the minority with it anyway. That's what makes the wetshaving 'clubs' like this so special :)

[Kyle]

I think that Gillette/Schick/whoever is nearing the end of "improvements" that they can make on the cartridge razor. There will be a few more changes made to the Fusion (colors, lubricating strip ingredients, etc), but they have just about tapped out the market. I would not be at all surprised to see them come out with their own line of brushes and soaps/creams as their next "advance".

Of course, I could be wrong. Three years from now we could see a 6-blade cartridge with an old atra placed on the back side of it. The handle will house a weed-eater motor and will have the optional attachment of saddle and reigns.

[Scotto]

I believe that Gillette has already stated that they are working on a brush project. Should be interesting.

[dash]

I think that Gillette/Schick/whoever is nearing the end of "improvements" that they can make on the cartridge razor.

They will have to come up with something.

As they include power models as they launch each new multi-blade system, that's out.

I can't see them going all spa on us, no marketing muscle will make new Gillette brushes and manly shave soaps mass market.

I'd like to see some kind of nick-free waterless shaving with a laser, but that's just me. The razor as Star Wars gadget! (Not "permanent whisker removal," just a daily ritual for the new millennium.)

[Treedoc]

Great post Mark. My own thoughts re promoting wet shaving go along the lines of appealing to the desire for exclusivity in shaving; wet shaving being the preserve of the 'Gentleman', a superior way to shave. With this in mind, I think well written and persuasive articles in the right magazines, (GQ and Esquire spring instantly to mind), would be a good start. New ideas and fashions tend to trickle down, perhaps in a somewhat watered-down form, but good ideas do sometimes take hold.
I like your mention of a swivel headed DE too; I was thinking along those lines myself but think a single edge razor would be less bulky, half of a DE blade was my idea. Realistically, the execution of this idea would be incredibly difficult but not impossible.
John.

[OldSchoolYoungin]

Honestly, I didn't read all of the posts, so excuse me if I repeat something.

I'm not quite sure that spreading the tradition of wetshaving as well as traditional wetshaving supplies so vehemently would lend itself to any greater good.

Sure, it'd be nice to be able to go to a store locally and pick up QED, MB, TGQ, etc., but I think it'd turn out for the negative if these companies lost their "niche" status. Worst case scenario, god forbid, would be reformulation of their wonderful products to appeal to the current market, ala Trumper's, Harris, etc. :eek: I'm sure our fine proprietors would never do such a thing, but it's something to think about.

Perhaps I'm alone on this, but I actually enjoy knowing that I'm not using "mainstream" products. I feel there will ALWAYS be a market for the finer products, I don't feel that Proraso's new distribution, nor increased distribution of any other product in question, is going to hurt Charles or any of the Sues.

The introduction of more DE razors may be a good idea, however. Or Merkur could expand it's distribution, which would put traditional shaving right in front of the face of cartridge users and would provide eye candy and ease of shopping for those of our own ilk.

[Einar]

I could see "tarjay" breaking out some DE stuff but I don't think the average guy is gonna drop 40 or 50 bucks on a "DE starter kit". I've seen some cheap DE's on line that are offered in UK & Europe but never seen them in the USA. I'll bet if ASR started to crank out some entry level DE's they'd be surprised at the results.
Maybe if it was offered with the premise that the long term savings would be substantial it might make a difference. I know I would have pounced on a $10-$15 starter kit with a cheap DE only a few months ago.
The problem that I always had with DE and all types of shaving was not unlike what JeffS was descibing. I was never shown the right way to do it. I think a DE starter kit with some decent instructions would probably go over fairly well. Especially when people start to realize how cheaply it can be done. I saw a 10 pack of Persona's yesterday for $1.54 US, that wouldn't even buy you one half of a Fusion cartridge.
I've been working on my brother to give this a try but he is a die hard Sensor Excel guy. The only way I'll get him on board is to give him a setup and let him try it out for a while. I've even talked to my Dad who started out shaving in the 50's and well remembers injectors & DE's and I'm sure he thinks it just a phase that I'll get over.
Anyhoo, that's my 2 cents.

Einar

[iron maiden]

SO is Target still carrying Proraso?

In one of the other forums on B&B, I saw where it had allegedly been pulled from the shelves.

[Kyle]

Sadly, it is no more.

[Samovar]

I saw today at Ogilvy (a Montreal luxury department store) a duo of Gillette Fusion and a brush. The whole kit is made by The Art of Shaving and it's a combination of a luxury version of the Fusion, a very nice holder and a dedicated brush. It's call the Fusion Chrome Collection
http://www.fusionchromecollection.com
It's a very nice looking package indeed. I might end up buying it for my dad who is an hardcore Mach 3 user. The man shaved all his life with a DE until he saw the Mach 3 .
I'm back to DE and he might move forward to the Fusion.
The basic razor package goes for 145$ CA, it's expensive, but I guess it's X-Mas...
And the super package including the razor, the stand and the brush is 325$


I believe that Gillette has already stated that they are working on a brush project. Should be interesting.

[arcman]

Yeah, Target stopped carrying Proraso a while ago, I think.
You can still buy it at Bath & Body Works stores, it's just rebranded under the C.O. Bigelow brand (looks like attached pic).

Also fyi, Bigelow is selling the red-tube wheat-germ Proraso for half off.
http://www.bigelowchemists.com/product_info.php/products_id/1444

[Aevum]

wilkinson allready sells a pretty poor bristle brush, and keep on selling shaving soap, so, theres hope,

personaly, i think that the next steps will be self heating blades, proboblly using the battery that powers the vibration, its the next logical step, considering that gillette is a P&G company, which also makes duracell bateries, and Wilkinson/Schick is a Energizer holding company (guess that they make), so have to pick up a 5-6 buck pack of batteries with your 15-25 buck pack of fusion blades, well,
Step 1 - Heat blade
Step 2 -?????
Step 3 - Profit

theres also another idea, variable geometry blades, with a small handle on the side on the cartrige to allow you to select agresivity, so you can change blade angle to fit your face,

or devided shave cartriges, make them smaller and modular, for the tigher places or be able to angle them to better fit the shape of the face,

theres enough snake oil to go around to keep making cartrige razors more then popular, add the "cosmetic" evolutions to that, black plastic, titanium, shiney chrome, and others,



now for the forgiving part, we have seen parker, treet and weishi allowing wetshaving alternative in developing markets, which means that people will not be forced upon bic disposables, and then we have seen the evolution of the DE shaver, either improving it by mhuele or merkur, and then seeing companies which wetshaving does NOT favor their market and profit margins actually evolve the DE shaver, take the latest freshly manufactured DE shavers from gillette that are on sale in the south east asia and the gillette rubies in russia (theres still one in the FS section if you look around for russian), and the Wilkinson Classic DE, which is quite cheap and available almost all around the world, i love it personaly, its a shame i dropped it and the metal bar inside moved, shaved quite badly after it and it had to go to the recycle can,

anyways, as you can see, wilkinson and gillette still make DE shavers, they might make them to keep on being competitive in developing market, but i suspect that readapting the product to a western market would be a cosmetic job more then an engnieering issue,

[LegalEagle]

Personally, I think part of the appeal of wetshaving, other than the amazing shaves and the incredible smells, is the fact that it's such a niche market and that most people don't even know it exists.

I like the "back to the good ol' days" feel that comes with it. In that respect, I don't want to see it go mainstream. I'm all for expanding the hobby and introducing new people; I'd just prefer not to be able to buy everything you need at any local grocery store.

[_JP_]

If wet shaving were to go mainstream, there would be more choices and possibly lower prices along with it all being more readily available in the local stores. Nothin' wrong wit dat!

[JulesE34]

It's interesting that things are going full circle.

Straight replaced by Safety, Safety replaced by Cartridge, Cartridde is still with us, albeit in a greatly alterd form with 5/6 blades in the head. Most people I know are actually shying away from them, there seems to be a growing suspicion that lots of blades = lots of irritation. My old man is currently using 2 blade bic disposables because his fusion was giving him the roughest shave ever. Even Safety's seem to be making a resurgence.

Brushes and soap/cream were replaced by canned foam/gel for ease of use and efficientcy. Again soaps and creams (& Brushes) seem to be making a resurgence as people are looking for less irritation.

However this resurgence is restricted to those of us 'in the know' and I cannot see a resurgence of safety razors back into a mainstream supermarket .

Safety's were replaced a long while ago, and for a reason - cartridge razors were perceived to be better, and perhaps in the early days they were (I had an old Gillette Contour which had a heavy handle and twin blades - there was nothing wrong with it, I wish I had not thrown it away now:frown: ). but these replacements to the safety have grown out of all proportion and are unrecognisable from there predecessors. However millions of people are still quite happy using them. We are, after all, a minority.

Spin-off's include pre-shaves, oils, heated shave bowls, ASB's and various post-shave and moisturising products.

I think that it's here that we should look for the next developments - for instance how about a (reduced blade!) Gillette cartridge with a foam, oil or moisturiser delivery system?

How about a razor that has a heat element build into the head?

Or a razor with angle and pressure alarms that go off when you angle is too acute/obtuse, or you are applying too much/insufficent pressure?

Personally, I think Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott had the best attitude - "The more they overcomplicate the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain!"

Jules

[arcman]

I think perhaps the last thing I can think of as any sort of actual "advancement" in shaving may have been the Norelco electric wetshaver with the built-in lotion (as seen in the "Quintippio" ad).

That's really all I can think of. I mean, the cartridge razors have added more (duller) blades, which haven't proven to be at all significant, the battery powered vibration is a complete whitewash, it does nothing other than make the razor handle consume more products (owned by the same company as the razor) and was even ruled in court to be an utterly useless feature.

Kind of makes you doubt the industry can really do much of anything to actually improve the shaving process any more than it has in the last hundred years, aside from making new patents out of old ideas, fluffed up by marketing double-talk.

[TULIP]

Like the fountain pens I use, DE and Straight razors will never be as mainstream they were; the marketing dollars just aren't there. Every product plateaus in terms of sales, and manufacturers are always trying to come up with some new variation. I'd be surprised if things changed at all. Most folks want easy and convenient, and DE shaving, not to mention straight shaving, has a learning curve. Those of us who are intrigued by the past are only so in areas that are interesting to them.

Wetshaving and its accoutrements are a niche market served by some very knowledgeable and dedicated vendors, and if that market were to grow by any measure, the Targets of the world would run the small guys we tend to do business with out of business.

[BroJohn]

for instance how about a (reduced blade!) Gillette cartridge with a foam, oil or moisturizer delivery system?

I suspect that Jules is onto something here. They *can't* keep adding blades, the geometry doesn't work and they run out of space. I suspect that they will re engineer the cartridge to a 'Super' two-blade or three-blade system, new geometry, new handle, different dynamics --proprietary, and patent protected of course.

Look for this new, whiz-bang item to be introduced half-way through the lifetime of the Fusion patent.

-- John Gehman, with crystal ball. . .

PS. In addition to engineers, Gillette has lawyers. Got to protect that intellectual property. . .

[JulesE34]

One risk area that occurred to me is the bull5hit factor.

I for one am totally bedazzled by the shear number of products available to shave with. I wouldn't get through them all if I spent every day of my life using a different products, and the market place is getting bigger.

Both large multi-national companies and small cottage industries are getting involved.

There must be (and I am not aiming this at anyone on here!) less reputable individuals out for a quick buck that introduce products which have not been tested adequately and are totally useless, but make stupendous and incredible claims.

I'm sure that with the internet making the world smaller and allowing these individuals to trade across borders without fear of legal reprisal, instances of us as a community coming across products that are useless, will increase.

And then, there are counterfeit products (would you persue someone for a $10 packet of blades perpurting to be Deby's or Feathers, but are just fake?).

Just my 2p

[MikeNYC]

If wet shaving were to go mainstream, there would be more choices and possibly lower prices along with it all being more readily available in the local stores. Nothin' wrong wit dat!

I absolutely agree. Let the free-market take off in wetshaving.

[rabidpotatochip]

I believe the root problem of this whole mess is that somewhere along the line everybody got caught up in the "more is more" hype. That razor has more blades? It must cut more hair! That conditioner is so thick you need to spread it like spackle? It's got to be better than that $2 stuff that runs out of the bottle like water... Don't even get me started on super-sizing that burger... twice as big or not, it still tastes like it fell off the back of the truck.

I think the main reasons wet-shaving will never catch on as a mainstream thing are that on some fundamental level people are genuinely scared they might hurt themselves and they don't believe that it really is possible to get a good, clean, safe shave with only one paper thin blade.

[Aevum]

thats just the marketing issue,

there are things which are worst for us but the marketing people push it down our mouths,

that bottle of fuji water that costed you 3 bucks ?, it passes less sanitary controls then the water coming from the tap, basicly the water in your toilet bowl has passed more testing then the water in the average mineral water bottle, im not saying its of worst quiality, but i am saying that one passes trough a severe filtering and disinfecting system, and the otherone is pumped from a some lake and passes the basic tests so you dont turn green and crap your kidneys 15 minutes after drinking it,

now, lets check out safety razors,
on one side you have a multiblade monster which is basicly designed by marketing people, not actuall engnieers, which passes some testing, but at the end of the day, they know 5 blades on a razor is bad for your face, hey have been making shaving utencils for more then 100 years, they should know that a blade that goes over unlathered skin will cause some degree of irritation, but insted of correcting they issue, they just spend money on marketing to convince you that the irritation is normal, and to sell you their aftershave, specificly made for that irritation that the blade causes,

and why not make a single blade razor ?
well, its going to be hard to justify 4 bucks a cartrige for a 1 blade razor,
2nd, how do you convince the client that a product you have been calling inferior for around 30 years is now the "best a man can get", you have to invest millions in propaganda to erase all the "the more blades the better" manure,

so, its not in their interest,
and as mentioned in a earlier thread, if they do make a new DE razor, expect it to be of very low quality, and expect a blade redesign to make the cartrige patentable, the double edge blade has had 4 evolutions allready, if gillette sets itself behind DE´s again, expect a DE with a plastic holder in the middle and a different hole configuration,

[brooklynlou]

thats just the marketing issue,

there are things which are worst for us but the marketing people push it down our mouths, (snip water part)

now, lets check out safety razors, on one side you have a multiblade monster which is basicly designed by marketing people, not actuall engnieers, which passes some testing, but at the end of the day, they know 5 blades on a razor is bad for your face, hey have been making shaving utencils for more then 100 years, they should know that a blade that goes over unlathered skin will cause some degree of irritation, but insted of correcting they issue, they just spend money on marketing to convince you that the irritation is normal, and to sell you their aftershave, specificly made for that irritation that the blade causes,

and why not make a single blade razor ? well, its going to be hard to justify 4 bucks a cartrige for a 1 blade razor, 2nd, how do you convince the client that a product you have been calling inferior for around 30 years is now the "best a man can get", you have to invest millions in propaganda to erase all the "the more blades the better" manure,

so, its not in their interest, and as mentioned in a earlier thread, if they do make a new DE razor, expect it to be of very low quality, and expect a blade redesign to make the cartrige patentable, the double edge blade has had 4 evolutions allready, if gillette sets itself behind DE´s again, expect a DE with a plastic holder in the middle and a different hole configuration,

If Edward Bernays has anything to say about the subject it would be that logical arguments are meaningless in the battle between DE and the Monster cartridges. Its all about irrational covetting. The message is that more is better. Two blades are better than on blade. Then three must be better than two and so on. It takes on this whole phallic "my dick is bigger than yours" undertone.

The only way you counteract that is by mass producing a gentle safety razor that can be safely mashed into the face -and- is sexy and individualized enough to be covetted.

Do to safety razors what Swatch did with cheap time pieces and back it up with a strong advertising campaign that mocks the monster cartridges and highlights the coolness of your razor. Then pay some A list celebreties to endorse it in public.

If you make your product desirable and redirect the 'more is better' impetus to the number of razors one owns rather than the number of blades in the cartridge, you'll dethrone the cartridge and make a profit.

[Einar]

If Edward Bernays has anything to say about the subject it would be that logical arguments are meaningless in the battle between DE and the Monster cartridges. Its all about irrational covetting. The message is that more is better. Two blades are better than on blade. Then three must be better than two and so on. It takes on this whole phallic "my dick is bigger than yours" undertone.

The only way you counteract that is by mass producing a gentle safety razor that can be safely mashed into the face -and- is sexy and individualized enough to be covetted.

Do to safety razors what Swatch did with cheap time pieces and back it up with a strong advertising campaign that mocks the monster cartridges and highlights the coolness of your razor. Then pay some A list celebreties to endorse it in public.

If you make your product desirable and redirect the 'more is better' impetus to the number of razors one owns rather than the number of blades in the cartridge, you'll dethrone the cartridge and make a profit.
Please don't take this as an attack brooklynlou but just as an observation regarding what people have been talking about, you referred that "Do to safety razors what Swatch did with cheap time pieces".
Curious the choice of the word "timepiece". It strikes me as more of the marketing hyperbole leaking into the lexicon. Wristwatches are SO pedestrian. Advertisors never refers to them as "mere wristwatches" when they can be *TIMEPIECES*. Kinda reminds me of the push to refer to used cars as "pre-owned". There's just so much nonsense behind a lot of marketing. While we're at it wouldn't anyone who's anyone prefer a "shaving system" to a razor? "Razor!? How gauche."
My wife says I'm crazy but I am convinced that the magic talking picture box in the living room is used to brainwash. The older I get the more I make a conscious effort to tune out advertising because it has gotten so intrusive.

As an aside, does anyone have any "intel" on how many or how often the sales guys at Gillette or Schick visit this and similar forums? They've got to be aware of the existance of these web sites.
Einar

[brooklynlou]

Einar. No offense taken.

Enjoy ....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2637635365191428174

[Einar]

thank you very much for that.
gonna have to wait until Momma & the little one go nighty night so I can savor it

ever heard of this guy >> Clotaire Rapaille

some interesting stuff here >>
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/interviews/rapaille.html

thanks again,
Einar

[BillyR75]

It's interesting reading this post almost two years later. The Fusion really seems to have taken off around here. Yeah, my friends and I made fun of it at first, but some have tried it and now swear by it. And, I can't argue because they have great looking skin and shaves. But multiblades just don't work for me. I don't understand the different strokes for different folks, but it does seem to be true. As to the other point made, sadly the Proraso is gone from Target now, as is the Omega brush, which was probably the best value for a boar brush. But I prefer my Colonel Conk soap anyway, so I'm not too bummed out about that. I just accept that some aspects of my life will rely on internet purchases.

[Must Dash]

As an aside, does anyone have any "intel" on how many or how often the sales guys at Gillette or Schick visit this and similar forums? They've got to be aware of the existance of these web sites.
Einar

Given that the population of the planet is more than 6.5 billion, roughly half of that is male and 70% of those males are over the age of 16, I'm not sure that Gillette or Schick will be overly concerned with the 6,000 or so members of B&B. And if their reps do visit this web site, it's probably in search of a decent shave.

Cheers

Jeremy

[spiffykyle]

And if their reps do visit this web site, it's probably in search of a decent shave.

Cheers

Jeremy

I have a buddy that works for Schick up in CT. He is a product design engineer so basically he is responsible for all the weird plastic handle shapes. He is in the same boat as me and uses an electric razor since the cost of cartridges is so high and the shave leaves my face in horrible shape. He is anxiously waiting to see the results of my foray into DE shaving.

spiffy

[AFG]

Hello everyone, I'm new to all this and have only been DE shaving for a few weeks. I wouldn't have even started this except for a thread I read on a completely unrelated bulletin board that got my interest going and so here I am. So for me the internet was the medium that got me involved and I wonder how many others. I also wonder what was going on in the pre internet days. Since there are almost no brick and mortar stores that cater to DE shaving, how did people learn about it to keep it going and where were they able to get their product information and supplies?. Maybe a lot of this didn't surface until after the internet.

Al

[masonjarjar]

Hello everyone, I'm new to all this and have only been DE shaving for a few weeks. I wouldn't have even started this except for a thread I read on a completely unrelated bulletin board that got my interest going and so here I am. So for me the internet was the medium that got me involved and I wonder how many others. I also wonder what was going on in the pre internet days. Since there are almost no brick and mortar stores that cater to DE shaving, how did people learn about it to keep it going and where were they able to get their product information and supplies?. Maybe a lot of this didn't surface until after the internet.

Al

I would probably say the most common way would be father-to-son. The surprising thing is that the "sons" are carrying on with the old traditions while many of the "fathers" have given it up.

I've always used a brush and soap because I saw my dad do it while I was growing up. Never really discussed it with anyone else.. One day I just bought a puck of soap and a brush and found an old coffee cup and that was it. Even though I don't use a DE, most of my friends over the years considered the mug and brush to be old fashioned. That and I used Old Spice hehe.

-Mason

[Aevum]

i dont think schick/wilkinson will appriciate you telling folk that one of the guys who actually designs the safety razors they make refuses to use them XD,

there are shops, but they are hard to find, i was really annoyed when i crossed madrid to get to the shop thats listed as a stockist on the D.R.H website, only to find they discontinued selling the products (and changed the name of the shop), i also found that kent and merkur products in shops here are really overpriced, with a futur at 110 euros, and a large Kent Silvertip costing upwards of 200 euros, i decided to stick to online shops,

[vcardona]

I agree with Nick. I doubt you'll see department stores carrying DE or SE razors any time soon. Perhaps thats a possibility in more upscale ones, but certainly not Target and the like.

Shaving creams and soaps though are different. Here you could easily see a greater selection of quality shave soaps and creams at major retailers.

So what can we do? Well we continue educating those that want a better shave. Our money advocates for us every time we buy. If you like Proraso, and wish to encourage Target to carry more items like it then buy it there.

[Keljian]

The biggest problem with SE and DE razors is the learning curve.

Any moron with half a peanut sized brain can shred off their whiskers in a semi alert state with a mach 3 or fusion and the latest and greatest shave gel. Sure it costs more, but they are likely to get a "reasonable" shave quicker (1 pass/multiple blades) and the fact that the second/third/fourth blades don't usually have any lubrication in the form of lather just means they'll blunt quicker - which results in better sales.

Before we even go to the other types of shaving there is the consideration of "we could cut ourselves" with the other types of razors. Handling blades required for DE or SE shaving is dangerous if proper care isn't taken, and carrying a SE razor is equivalent to carrying a deadly weapon, as realistically it could be (mis)used as one.

A DE razor user is different, getting a good DE shave requires more than one pass, a good blade angle, a reasonable amount of skill and some way of disposing of the razor sharp blades afterward, as most people don't realise there are slots for storing the blades in the packaging.

A SE razor user is a level up again, with stropping and honing being two necessary skills to maintain and keep a SE in good condition. Not to mention the actual shave which necessitates the use of reasonable pre-shave, shave and post shave products to give it a good finish. Of course you can do the same with the other forms of shaving but it isn't quite as necessary. The skill required in actually shaving with a straight is a major detractor in this world of "need results now"/convenience.

I think a resurgence will start to happen in terms of pampering oneself before/during/after the shave as quality of life becomes more of a consideration in the world, as it already has started to, but I think that the future is along the lines of "simple, low irritation, low maintenance" rather than a reverting to the old style razors. there will be niche communities (such as this one) that will specialise in SE and DE use, but I seriously doubt it will become mainstream again.

[mulepackin]

It is interesting to reread this thread and see how things have waxed and waned in the world of wet shaving. While I'm sure we'll never see things like the Fusion and canned goo go away, I'm equally sure wet shaving won't die out. No, it will probably never become "mainstream" again, but at least for me and I'm sure many others, that is part of what makes it so enjoyable. I enjoy my quest for products and equipment, whether it be on-line, in big box stores, mom and pop's, or junk and antiques stores. Believe me, in my part of the country it really is a quest, but that just makes a good find that much more enjoyable and ultimately the BBS shave I get with the fruits of my labors is also that much more savory. While we are a minority in what we do, I don't think any of us really care about that. This forum and wet shaving unites us, allows us to share our views on our hobby and myriad other topics and ultimatley opens our eyes to many other new (or old) things and makes our lives fuller:thumbup1:

[omarwashington]

As I walked into this new store in our local mall, which has been open for about three or four months long. I was surprised to see (pardon my sexual discrimination) women behind the counter at AOS. I was thinking to myself women don’t have facial hair, duh. Then this is when I began to notice a trend.

Back in the days when both my father and I would get our hair cut at the naval exchange, I remember the barber using a straight razor and some cream which he would use to get the neck hairs with. Then the barber would finish off with a quick shoulder massage and I’m sure there are barbers that still do this.

Where I’m trying to get at is that wet shaving I assume will be somewhat of a status symbol. Kind of like fine wine and almost the same as getting service from a drive up coffee stand where only cute baristas work. Kind of like I drive a Ferrari and you drive a civic(I’m sure a lot of you have heard of this analogy).

[coop1960]

I've tried the Fusion. Someone gave me one as a gift. They are ok. Gillette perfected their razor line when they came out with the MachIII Turbo. This said, Gillette will in 5 or so years come up with something else to separate us from our money.

[coop1960]

Here is the next thing in shaving. The Roomba. Just like the robot that vacums your carpet while you do whatever. The Roomba shaver that shaves you when you do whatever.
http://www.roombareview.com/buy/roomba/

[TorzJohnson]

I went into Target today to look for blades and see what aftershaves they had. Of course I didn't even bother looking for Proraso but in the back of my mind I had fantasies of finding a few leftover tubes in the bargain bin.

On the shaving aisle, there was exactly one aftershave: Aqua Velva. That was it. I mean, no Old Spice or Skin Bracer or awful Gillette aftershaves that you find in the most humble shaving sections. No DE blades at all.

There was also a single bottle of Lectric Shave, yet dozens and dozens of electric razors. :confused: The rest of the two-sided aisle was made up of plastic Adidas-style razors, overpriced cartridges, canned gels and foams. This shaving section was huge - there were literally hundreds of mass-market McShaving items and not one decent thing to be seen besides the AV. It's sad when my own medicine cabinet has more variety than a freaking super-store.

I looked for witch hazel too - they have a huge pharmacy department. There was one brand of witch hazel... generic. Target has nothing left for us whatsoever.

[DEmac]

I am too lazy to read the entire thread, so I'm sorry if someone has already said this, but...

I think Gillett may have shot them selves in the foot with the Fusion. They stuck a single blade on the back of it for doing touch-ups. A good portion of men are going to notice that the single blade by itself does a great job and wonder "hey, why the hell am I spending $4 for a six bladed cartridge when the single blade on the back of it works great?" I think they may have converted more men to traditional wet shaving with that move than we could do by proselytizing (which I think may be a bad idea).

I think you can contribute more of wet shaving’s recent success to the zeitgeist more than anything else. I see this as being closely related to the slow food movement etc. Sort of like the Zen Habits article, I originally found out about wet shaving by stumbling onto a Mother Jones article from the 1960’s while searching for the most environmentally friendly way to remove the hair from my face. The way it’s going appears to be positive. I’m afraid that if we try to actively proselytize we may end up looking like a bunch of obnoxious eccentrics. Plenty of people are finding us on their own; there is no need to go pulling people in.

Besides, if demand for wet shaving supplies increases than prices will go up, we don’t want that now do we?

[prophetic_joe]

I know one thing that brought me over initially was price. Those cartridges are spendy darn it but looking at things it could easily be more expensive to wet shave, some of the products here are pretty expensive as well. I will probably stick with it though as the blade price is much cheaper and i do like the way the DE that I have shaves. So really I agree about Gillette shooting themselves in the foot a little I can't really see myself spending $15 on a pack of 8 cartridges not when I can get a more enjoyable shave with my DE. Gillette did sell me my DE though in a round about way.

[DEmac]

So really I agree about Gillette shooting themselves in the foot a little I can't really see myself spending $15 on a pack of 8 cartridges not when I can get a more enjoyable shave with my DE. Gillette did sell me my DE though in a round about way.

$15? Try $25

[prophetic_joe]

$15? Try $25

You know when I posted that I was trying to determine whether it was the4 pack or the 8 pack that was around $15, I posted that it was the 8 but after your post and checking today I'll be damned it's the 4. That $15 dollars for a 4 pack holy crap, yeah I'll stick with the DE.

[New2DEShaving_Montreal]

Mark raises some really good points. However, with the current state of economy, and research, I found out that people are looking for value more these days than anything.

Fusion and other multi-hack scrape and pray devices are for the masses, but then again, usually in life, there's more rubbish to be found than good. Which is what sets all of us apart right off the bat. Usually, people like us are the ones who create trends, and if one of us happens to be someone in a powerful position to change 'wetshaving' and make it mass marketable, it can happen. After all, wasn't that what the original creators of the now 'most hated by us' shaving devices were trying to accomplish?

I think each type of this hardware has its pros and cons, and the makers usually intended it for the better. So I am wondering, if the Fusion cartridge were to cost $0.15, how many of us would be using it? I can safely say that I would still stick to my DE, because I appreciate the time, and skill required in this honored tradition. So we are a special bunch of die hard old school folks who look forward to the next shave, while the mass population dreads it.

I once carried my father's own Gillette knack in my pocket into stores looking to find blades for it, this was about 4 months ago. Not a single person knew what it even was. It shocked them to see this DE razor. Ofcourse, they had the blades, but they didn't even know they had them! So I think the problem is, many people don't even know about it, and those of us who do, don't speak much of it to the next generation.

My apologies if I have gone off the topic here, it is our small group that can make a difference. But then a question comes to mind, that if our ways became mass marketed, wouldn't big corporations want to profit? Can anyone imagine DE blade prices sky rocketing to 14, 15, 20 dollars a pack? I cannot imagine that at all. That would be death to DE shaving as we know it. However it is not possible ofcourse because most people around the world still use DE razors. Only the Americans/Canadians are into this new type of Mach3 and on hoopla, but it was still worth imagining a world where we pay gold for rocks.

You guys should check out my petition page where we discuss possibilities and ofcourse are seeking a solution, for even more variety. Take a look and let's network together and find some solutions.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=36548

[SpartanIV]

I found a knife shop in the mall here that sells Merkur DE's, Merkur blades, Vulfix brushes, and some other wetshaving stuff. Good prices on it all too!

So if you haven't already, go by your local malls knife/blade shop and look around a bit, you might be surprised!