Remington vs Winchester vs Browning [Archive]

gaseousclay

07-21-2010, 05:50 AM

so I started a thread awhile back on shotguns (and rifles, I think) because I was interested in buying one for hunting purposes. I've never fired a gun in my life but i've been looking at taking gun safety courses through the DNR, or have my father-in-law teach me gun safety since he's an experienced hunter.

my question is, is there a noticeable difference in the way a gun fires when i'm looking at brands? whenever I go to hunting/sporting goods stores I make a habit of checking out the pump action shotguns and bolt action rifles. the primary brands I look at are Remington, Winchester and Browning. does anyone have any experience with these companies? If so, could you please elaborate on quality and overall accuracy?

I guess i'm trying to approach firearms the way I approach shaving - YMMV, right? I know several people here have recommended the Remington 870 Wingmaster, so I think this is top on my list of shotguns. what about bolt action rifles? is there any difference between the brands I've mentioned? finally, since i'm completely new to this, what should I be looking for when purchasing a shotgun or rifle? I'm assuming 12 gauge is ideal, but what about barrel length? Ideally i'd like to buy a shotgun or rifle new, but used is ok too, hence the reason I'm asking about gun specs. if I were to buy used, how do I know i'm getting a decent shotgun or rifle? what should I be looking for? are there any decent online retailers that sell used firearms for decent prices? that is of course if firearms are allowed to be shipped online.

straight_razor_dave

07-21-2010, 05:59 AM

IMHO the best shooting rifle you can buy for the money would be a Savage. A no frills rifle. It is rugged and durable. While not the prettiest rifle you've ever come across It realy doesnt have to be. It was built for one purpose. To be Accurate, Deadly, and Dependable. Dont knock them until you've tried them. You can get you a 30-06 or a . 308 for about 250 ready to go w/ a scope. Look into it my man.

TheFlyingFrenchman

07-21-2010, 06:26 AM

Don't have much more advice to offer up. Just wanted to throw in that you'll want to look at the material that the firearm is made of when you get it. Since you haven't fired any guns before, that might be the biggest difference that you notice. Two guns may be of the same caliber, but if one of them has a synthetic stock for instance, then it has the potential to have a lot more recoil.

I've had both a Remington 870 and a Browning Auto 5 that I inherited from my Grandfather. Both were definitely sweet shotguns. If you look around your town you'll most likely find a local shooting club. You'll find that firearms enthusiasts are usually just as friendly and open as us wet-shavers are. You might be able to find a group of guys to go out with that would let you try out several of their diffrent models. They would be more than willing to help you find your first firearm.

All three companies have been around this long because they make a good solid product. A guns are about as YMMV as razors since everybody is built differently. So its up to finding which model you enjoy shooting the most and your most comfotable with.

Jim

07-21-2010, 06:30 AM

Trey45

07-21-2010, 06:55 AM

Any purchases you make online of a firearm will have to be mailed direct to an FFL dealer in your local area. You then have to fill out form 4473 as you would if you had just bought the gun direct from the FFL dealer. You can go ahead and add 50 dollars to whatever price you buy the rifle for online, shipping is going to average $20, FFL dealers normally charge $30 for transfer. Some areas are more, where I live it's $50 for transfer.

Shotguns:
Since you are not experienced with shooting sports, a 12 gauge is most likely going to be a bit daunting at first for you, the recoil can be intense with full house loadings. Even some of the 2 3/4" loads can generate substantial recoil. I would direct you to a 20 gauge instead, the cost of the shells are similar between 12 and 20 anyhow, and honestly, the 12 won't do anything the 20 can't do in capable hands. The 20 is a milder recoil and easier to control. Remington 870 Wingmaster is the flagship of the 870 line, you can get the exact same action for less cash if you buy the 870 Express. I have several 870's, in various gauges, all but one is an Express, the one is a Wingmaster. I see no difference in performance, only the wood is different.
Mossberg 500, tried and true, hard to go wrong here, I prefer wood stocks anyhow, at least on shotguns. My opinion on shotguns is they are supposed to look like a shotgun, not some tacticool tool the high speed low drag crowd drools over. Mossberg 500's have been leaning heavily towards plastic stocks as of late, but you can still find a wood stocked shotgun if you look hard enough.
Browning, hard to go wrong here too, but you'll pay for that reputation. I don;t have much to say about their shotguns since I don't exactly like spending 4 times as much for a tool that my 870's will do the same job for.

Rifles:
Remington 700 series. These are the flagships of the Remington rifles. Stay away from the 770's, in no uncertain terms, they are not reliable. I could get into the whole long action v/s short action rifles for your first, but I honestly think you should start with a 22LR to learn the fundamentals on. Savage MK II with a decent 4x scope will solve that issue. Once you learn the correct techniques of accuracy and shooting skills, move up to a centerfire rifle, 308 Winchester in a Remington 700 will fill that bill just fine. You could also look at Savage model 10 or 11 for this and stay in the whole Savage accu-trigger family of firearms. If you just looking for a "fun gun" I'd direct you towards the Savage M25 in .223, which has the Wylde chamber that allows you to shoot surplus 5.56x45 ammo in it.

Not much more to say here. I could go on for pages, but this isn't a firearms forum, there are firums on the web for just that, let your browser find you a couple of these forums and do some reading and research before you buy.

flylot

07-21-2010, 07:08 AM

TulsaLhorn

07-21-2010, 07:22 AM

All the previous advice is very good. I personally own 2 of the 3 brands you mentioned (remington and browning), and have a custom made Kleinguenther in a 300 winchester magnum action if that counts as the third.

My addition to the previous posts is to find a gun show near you. Gun shows are great places to pick up, feel, sight, shake and otherwise fondle all these brands and more. Not only that if you see something you want you can take it home that day!

Down south there is usually a local gun show about every other month.

flylot

07-21-2010, 07:32 AM

Shotguns:
Since you are not experienced with shooting sports, a 12 gauge is most likely going to be a bit daunting at first for you, the recoil can be intense with full house loadings. Even some of the 2 3/4" loads can generate substantial recoil. I would direct you to a 20 gauge instead, the cost of the shells are similar between 12 and 20 anyhow, and honestly, the 12 won't do anything the 20 can't do in capable hands. The 20 is a milder recoil and easier to control. Remington 870 Wingmaster is the flagship of the 870 line, you can get the exact same action for less cash if you buy the 870 Express. I have several 870's, in various gauges, all but one is an Express, the one is a Wingmaster. I see no difference in performance, only the wood is different.
Mossberg 500, tried and true, hard to go wrong here, I prefer wood stocks anyhow, at least on shotguns. My opinion on shotguns is they are supposed to look like a shotgun, not some tacticool tool the high speed low drag crowd drools over. Mossberg 500's have been leaning heavily towards plastic stocks as of late, but you can still find a wood stocked shotgun if you look hard enough.
Browning, hard to go wrong here too, but you'll pay for that reputation. I don;t have much to say about their shotguns since I don't exactly like spending 4 times as much for a tool that my 870's will do the same job for.

I must chime in here. As an avid bird shooter and competitive sporting clay and skeet shooter, I happen to have some experience in this matter. First and foremost, THE GUN MUST FIT. I can not stress this enough. Most "off the rack" guns are manufactured for "the average man" (what ever THAT is). THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN AVERAGE MAN!!!!!

If it doesn't fit, it will not shoot where you are looking! Please, please make sure it fits and then go pattern the gun! If you don't know what that means, the go out to a skeet/trap/sporting clay range and ask someone! Any serious shotgunner will be more than happy to help. With an ill fitting gun you will not hit squat and the recoil will hurt regardless of the load. Fit is far more important than gun make I assure you!

Now, the 12 ga. vs. 20 ga. thing is another matter. First off, recoil has everything to do with physics and nothing to do with gauge. A 12 ga. often weighs more than a 20. So if you have a 1 oz load at 1100 fps in the heavier 12 ga. the perceived recoil will be less than the same load in the lighter 20 ga. gun. I advise women new to shooting to shoot a 12 ga. with a 7/8 oz. target load. Very little recoil. Their problem is not recoil any longer, it's getting the upper body in shape to swing the heavier gun.

I do agree that for upland birds, a 20 is far superior to a 12, but for many other reasons, recoil not being one of them. I shoot 20s and 28 ga. for upland birds, and 20 ga. even for driven pheasant.

Modern powders negate the old thought of longer barrel for longer shots. That is no longer valid. Barrel length is chosen more for gun weight, balance, feel, and the type of shooting. You do not want a 32" barrel SxS hunting quail in brush for example. A better choice would be a gun with a 26 inch barrel.

A shooter manages distances with chokes AND loads. Inside 10-20 yard, a skeet choke with 8 shot in a 1 oz. load will work when you might need a modified or full choke and 6 shot in a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 oz load for that 45 yard crossing bird.

Also when picking a gun, intended use is important. Remember, a target gun is shot a lot and carried very little. A field gun is carried a lot and shot a little. Two different thought processes here.

TulsaLhorn

07-21-2010, 07:35 AM

Don't know how big this one would be from the ad but....

http://crocodileproductionsinc.com/gkwaconia.htm

Black Adder

07-21-2010, 10:46 AM

Out of the three brands you've mentioned, I've had experience with two. A Remington 870 20 ga. was my first shotgun. I was 16 then, and found that a pump and me just didn't get along in a hunting situation. I don't know if it was because my arms were too short, or I was getting excited, but I always short-stroked the pump action, and got jams. I went to Brownings after this, and never looked back. My first was a Browning 2000 in 20 ga., and then I had a Browning B-80 12 ga. Upland model.

It's been a while since I've hunted, but a shotgun HAS to "feel" right; you need to be able to get it up to your shoulder quickly and with no effort. I'm not kidding when I say it has to become a part of you. I really suggest you try different brands to see what feels right to you. I personally favor semi autos in shotguns, but they can get expensive. No real sportsman in a gun store will laugh at you if you're there spending time with bringing different shotguns up to your shoulder, seeing if that barrel naturally meets up with your eye. Consider weight, too. My Brownings were pretty light; a major plus when you're trudging sloughs or forage sorghum fields in search of pheasants.

Don

WastedResources

07-21-2010, 11:12 AM

I carry a Browning Citori Classic Lightning Feather 12 gauge with a 30" barrel. I hunt doves, ducks, geese, and pheasants. It's one of the fancier Citoris, but you don't need to get crazy with it. Remington, Winchester, Browning, and Ruger all make quality firearms. It's important that you go to a shop and get your hands on the gun. Practice pulling it up into shooting position. You will find that they don't all feel great in your hands. Keep in mind that hunting can be dirty. Your gun will get dinged up a bit, so if you're going to cry if you put a mark on your precious tool, get a cheaper model.

Bullwinkle

07-21-2010, 12:03 PM

the rifle discussion would be way too long for here.. IMHO you will have more fun and can find many more places to shoot a shotgun. Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays, etc.. Plus, birds, rabbits, squirrels.. If you have decided on a pump and you happen to be left handed the Browning BPS would be my first choice. (even if you're not) The spent shells get ejection out the bottom not into your face. The safety is on top and is operated with your thumb. The Remington safety's are on the trigger guard and are a pain and ever worse with gloves on. I have a decent selectiosn of shotguns and more than likely I will grab the BPS. It's a 20ga upland special.. fairly light, short barrel and just feels right.

Jim

07-21-2010, 01:31 PM

Black Adder

07-21-2010, 06:40 PM

I forgot about double barrels. If you go that way, along with the Citori, you may want to consider the Ruger Red Label over and under. An awesome shotgun that sadly, I never had the pleasure of owning. Expensive, but I really think it'd be worth it.

Don

gaseousclay

07-21-2010, 07:51 PM

Compared to selecting a rifle, a shotgun can be much more difficult.

What are you going to be hunting? Quail over pointer dogs? Woodcock over a spaniel? Grouse over a Setter? Wood ducks on a pond? Geese on a tidal flat? Driven pheasant? Each one would use a different gun for a perfect fit. A full bore goose gun would be a handicap over a duck pond or in a grouse covert. A woodcock gun would be equally handicapped pass shooting geese.

ideally, the shotgun would be used for hunting both deer and pheasant. I don't know if all shotguns can do this but I want something that can shoot both buckshot and slugs.

I don't know if i'll ever get to own a rifle since most of the designated deer hunting grounds are way out of the city. I know I can use a shotgun for this so it just seems more practical.

do I need a license to own or carry a rifle when hunting?

anyway, thanks everyone for the tips....you guys were very helpful :thumbup:

garyg

07-21-2010, 08:01 PM

Remington 870 to start, with two barrels, one with sights for the deer. And yes, in most states, there is a license required for hunting.

The key though is to take it out & shoot. Take the rifled barrel to a range & sight it in, or you will just be another tool wandering the woods. Put the other barrel on & get to a skeet or sporting clays course & pony up for a lesson.

The practice is fun, and will keep you in tune when the seasons are closed

blary54

07-21-2010, 08:03 PM

For the price a Mossberg 500 is hard to beat(about $200.00). Used by some of the US armed forces because its so durable. I have one and really like it because im left handed and the safety is on top of the gun much like an over and under, and the slide release is under the gun in a spot i can get to with my left hand.

If I was going to buy an expensive shotgun I would probably go with a Benelli ( I like the M2 Field)
http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m2.php
But Browning and Remington make some fantastic guns.

If I was going to purchase a rifle I would probably purchase a Tikka T3. (Finnish company).

Anyway those are just what I would purchase. I see you are looking at only American companies. I would also recommend looking at Ruger. They make good guns too.

FlatFork

07-21-2010, 08:18 PM

I shot sporting clays years ago and the browning will not let you down if your going to fire a lot of rounds and they will also hold their value well.

DavyRay

07-21-2010, 08:27 PM

We have built sub-divisions out in the woods. The deer do not have anywhere else to go. They are now eating my garden and my landscaping.

A shotgun is ideal for deer at close range. A golf club, in urban areas, would be almost as effective. I prefer the noise of a Winchester pump 12 ga. with no plug and a cylinder bore. That enables me to use slugs to drop these over-populated deer. Unfortunately, I live within the city limits. I can't use firearms to kill deer. I guess I will just have to use an old Toyota Corolla.

gaseousclay

07-22-2010, 04:59 AM

And yes, in most states, there is a license required for hunting.

I know a license is necessary to hunt but what about to simply own a firearm? if I were to go to a gun shop could I just buy a shotgun or rifle or is there some sort of background check they would need to do? I know this is generally done for handguns and that you need to have a conceal and carry permit, but what about shotguns and rifles?

Black Adder

07-22-2010, 06:12 AM

In Minnesota, you must get a permit to purchase a handgun. This is basically a background check done at the county level to see if you have anything on record prohibiting you from owning a handgun. A conceal and carry permit is a seperate thing altogether.

Long guns, rifles and shotguns, do not require a special permit or license and can be purchased from sporting goods stores. You will have to fill out a form 4473 which is a legal statement, made and signed by you, that says you can legally own the firearm you are purchasing. This is in compliance with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Federal law).

Don

SRock

07-22-2010, 06:21 AM

Gents, I'm just marking this thread so I can come back when I get time and try and catch up on what has been said. Guns are my area of expertise and my most expensive hobby.

gaseousclay

07-22-2010, 06:29 AM

flylot

07-22-2010, 07:23 AM

Gents, I'm just marking this thread so I can come back when I get time and try and catch up on what has been said. Guns are my area of expertise and my most expensive hobby.

Kinda tough to enoy your sport where you are located. However, ever visit the Miroku factory in Japan, after all, they are Brownings! :001_smile

WastedResources

07-22-2010, 07:31 AM

Thats a fine ride.

My fowling peice as well.

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=3901

Wow, look at that collection of bands! It looks like you've been out a couple of times. Very cool.

It's great. I came here to talk about shaving, but there are so many people who share common interests, that it keeps me coming back. B&B is a pretty cool place.

gaseousclay

07-25-2010, 07:13 AM

can anyone direct me to any shotgun safety videos? I've found a few via youtube but if there's anything else out there worth looking into I would appreciate it

WastedResources

07-25-2010, 07:52 AM

can anyone direct me to any shotgun safety videos? I've found a few via youtube but if there's anything else out there worth looking into I would appreciate it

I strongly recommend attending a hunter safety course.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/index.html

Check out the NRA site:
http://www.nrahq.org/education/

Topgumby

07-25-2010, 10:16 AM

Surprise! Firearms are like shaving tools...there are guys who enjoy having top of the line stuff, and insist that less is unworthy, and there are some tightwads who glory in cheap for it's own sake.

All of the brands you list are good. The Savage rifles are big bang for the buck. Having a custom fit shotgun is great if you get into shotgun shooting, but there are more hunters with off the rack guns, and they do OK.

As to used, look for buggered up screws. That's the most common sign that Bubba was his own gunsmith. You'd not want a fixed choke shotgun for a "does it all" gun.

The more I think on and read your OP, the more I think the question of "what gun?" is too vague to answer in a forum like this without more specifics...what kind of hunting? Where? When?

I'd advise anyone wanting to learn the basics to invest in a good air rifle and an indoor pellet trap. That, or a .22 if you have the place to shoot it, will teach you more about shooting than a whole bunch of forum advice. I bet there is a club in your area that does small bore target shooting, or an air rifle club. Do that for awhile and you'll be miles ahead when it comes to centerfire rifles.

DavyRay

07-25-2010, 12:19 PM

You have gotten good advice from many people here.

+1 on TopGumby's advice about air rifles. Read Mel Tappan's comments on air rifles if you can find them online. Good reinforcement for a great idea.

Jim's comments about shotguns are certainly more informed than my experience. I do note, though, that the variety of shotguns needed vary mostly with the type of bird shooting.

My suggestion is to start with a shotgun suitable for deer hunting with slugs. This would be a pump, cylinder bore, long magazine, wood stock. You should be able to get one of these for little money. You will beat a deer gun to tatters in many hunting areas. A fine shotgun for that is just wasteful. You can always buy something more expensive after you learn where your interests lie for other types of shooting. Mine is a Winchester pump. All the major brands make a good pump. With the money you save on the shotgun, you could have the stock adjusted to fit you.

+1 also on finding local shooting clubs for help.

Ruger Packer

07-25-2010, 05:24 PM

Kinda tough to enoy your sport where you are located. However, ever visit the Miroku factory in Japan, after all, they are Brownings! :001_smile

They also make some of the Weatherby rifles and shotguns. My favorite coyote hunting rifle is a Howa, also made by Miroku. Good quality. :thumbup1:

Owens187

07-25-2010, 11:49 PM

SRock

07-26-2010, 03:45 AM

Compared to selecting a rifle, a shotgun can be much more difficult.

What are you going to be hunting? Quail over pointer dogs? Woodcock over a spaniel? Grouse over a Setter? Wood ducks on a pond? Geese on a tidal flat? Driven pheasant? Each one would use a different gun for a perfect fit. A full bore goose gun would be a handicap over a duck pond or in a grouse covert. A woodcock gun would be equally handicapped pass shooting geese.

Exactly. Your quest for a shotgun depends 100% on what you are looking to use it for.

I strongly recommend attending a hunter safety course.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/index.html

Check out the NRA site:
http://www.nrahq.org/education/

This cannot be stressed enough. Safety is paramount with all firearms.

gaseousclay

07-26-2010, 06:53 AM

Exactly. Your quest for a shotgun depends 100% on what you are looking to use it for.

This cannot be stressed enough. Safety is paramount with all firearms.

I think I mentioned it in a previous response but i'd like a shotgun I can use for both deer hunting and pheasant hunting.

as for safety, I agree that every precaution should be taken when deciding on purchasing a firearm. firearm/hunting safety is important to me and I don't plan on waltzing into a store to buy a shotgun or rifle without having taken some sort of course. i've been watching safety videos online, but I would prefer some sort of one-on-one safety tutorial - I may ask my father in-law to help me since he's an experienced hunter.

Jim

07-26-2010, 07:03 AM

SRock

07-27-2010, 03:29 AM

The Deer/ Pheasant combo would be one of the multi barrel pumps like the Remington.

The NRA runs hunting safety and firearms training classes that are the standard.
Most states require a hunter safety class prior to issuing a license. They fill up fast so get in one soon, don't wait for August/September.

Check here> http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/index.html

It really is tough to beat the quality unless you want to pay big bucks! The 870 has been around since the 50's and has more variations than you can shake a stick at. Excellent recommendation Jim! :thumbup1:

gaseousclay

07-27-2010, 03:16 PM

went to Dick's Sporting Goods today to hopefully take a look at shotguns to try and get a feel for them. not only did they not have the Remington 870 Wingmaster (although they had the Express) but I was completely ignored by the salesman who were working. I got a hello and that was it. so, in addition to poor customer service and lack of selection I also found it irritating that the shotguns and rifles were kept locked behind the counter so no one could actually hold and feel one in their hands. they've now lost my business and I won't go back. there are several other stores in the area but they're mostly of the chain-store variety. would I be better off going to a smaller privately owned gun store? I'm apprehensive about setting foot in a place like Cabela's or Gander Mountain - I get the impression that a lot of their employees aren't going to be experienced hunters who can genuinely help me with a shotgun purchase.

on that note, can someone please explain to me the difference between the Remington 870 Wingmaster and the 870 Express? is the Express made of lighter, cheaper materials, hence the cheaper price tag?

WastedResources

07-27-2010, 04:27 PM

I'm apprehensive about setting foot in a place like Cabela's or Gander Mountain - I get the impression that a lot of their employees aren't going to be experienced hunters who can genuinely help me with a shotgun purchase.

I don't know why you would feel like that. Both of those stores specialize in hunting supplies. I've always found the employee's at both stores to be knowledgeable. They don't let just anyone work in the gun department. I'm pretty sure that all of the guys at my local Gander Mountain hunt, shoot in competitions, or both.

gaseousclay

07-27-2010, 04:44 PM

I don't know why you would feel like that. Both of those stores specialize in hunting supplies. I've always found the employee's at both stores to be knowledgeable. They don't let just anyone work in the gun department. I'm pretty sure that all of the guys at my local Gander Mountain hunt, shoot in competitions, or both.

my brother had a brief part-time job at Cabela's, and he doesn't know squat about the outdoors. I guess i'm letting my bad experience of Dick's spoil things for me. I guess I just have to go to these stores and see for myself

garyg

07-27-2010, 05:23 PM

my brother had a brief part-time job at Cabela's, and he doesn't know squat about the outdoors. I guess i'm letting my bad experience of Dick's spoil things for me. I guess I just have to go to these stores and see for myself

Did your brother work the gun counter? I think it will vary from store to store, we have all three around abouts, and Cabela's has the best gun selection bar none, followed by Gander, with Dick's running last. The knowledge of the guys behind the counters is pretty good at all three, again with Cabela's being the best in this area. If you want personalized service though, avoid the big box chain stores entirely, just like you should avoid the little box chain restaurants. Find a real gun shop & stop in, unless you show the day before deer season most will be able to give you real personalized help.

As far as Wingmaster vs Express, my understanding is it is just fancier materials & finishes on the higher end. When I have browzed for parts for an Express it appears that the guts of the gun are the same, but barrel & wood finishes are different.

gaseousclay

07-27-2010, 06:09 PM

Did your brother work the gun counter? I think it will vary from store to store, we have all three around abouts, and Cabela's has the best gun selection bar none, followed by Gander, with Dick's running last. The knowledge of the guys behind the counters is pretty good at all three, again with Cabela's being the best in this area.

my bro didn't work at the gun counter but my point was, if he was hired at Cabela's with absolutely no experience whatsoever then who's to say the person working the gun counter isn't going to know what he's talking about? when I was up north I stopped at a sporting goods store that had a full range of new and used guns that I could hold in my hands, and plenty of staffers to help if I needed it. I don't seem to get that same level of help in the cities

Black Adder

07-27-2010, 06:15 PM

went to Dick's Sporting Goods today to hopefully take a look at shotguns to try and get a feel for them. not only did they not have the Remington 870 Wingmaster (although they had the Express) but I was completely ignored by the salesman who were working.

Don't let one bad experience discourage you. The clerk may have been having a bad day, or maybe he/she did indeed have poor customer service skills. Not all hunting trips are successful!

Head out to the Gander Mountain store located in Eden Prairie off of Technology Drive. They have a number of new and used shotguns on the racks that have trigger locks, but you can pick them up and shoulder them, helping you to get a feel for the gun. The store help is generally friendly and enthusiastic; I think they'll be of some assistance.

Don

jin

07-27-2010, 07:08 PM

I'd second the suggestions about getting a .22 (I prefer .22 LR) rifle and start off with some target shooting. I and my parents all have Ruger rifles (Ruger 10/22 is a fantastic rifle) and we very much enjoy them, and they're all small calibers.

As far as purchasing a gun, I'd suggest a few things. My apologies if someone here has already suggested these; I only skimmed the entire thread, not read through it thoroughly.

1. Get someone who's already involved in shooting to go with you. If I read correctly, your father-in-law hunts. If he's willing to do so, ask him to go with you looking at guns.

2. Look around a lot first. I read many comments saying guns are a personal decision, and that can't be stressed enough.

3. Find a gun show to go to. There are usually tons of dealers there, with all sorts of guns. Most, if not all, of the guns are out for you to look at and handle. If it's a decent show, you can be reasonably sure that safety is being enforced fairly well. However, be sure to have your b.s. detector on. There are a lot of people there who are only trying to sell you something, so keep that in mind. Also, a lot of people have a lot of differing opinions, and not everyone's right about everything.

4. Head out to a gun range. I'd prefer one that has a good rifle and / or shotgun range. The range we go to offers a short safety course, and you may be able to take one before joining a range (not sure about that, that will definitely vary, and I can't promise it will or will not cost anything). You'll find lots of people there really interested in guns and are more than willing to talk to you about them. This is another good reason to get a simple .22 to take to the range to start with. There will be lots of people there willing to help you and talk to you about shooting.

5. Always, always, always keep safety in mind. It sounds like you're already planning to do that, which I'm very happy to hear. The best advice I've ever had about gun safety boils down to two statements:
i. Always treat every gun as if it's loaded.
ii. Never point any gun at anything you don't want to destroy.

Good luck!

tpoof

07-27-2010, 07:30 PM

here's another tid bit... I have a "chester" 30-30 and a Remington pump action shotgun as well as a Browning lever action and they are all good guns.. the browning with a touch better fit and finish..
but,
I also have a Ruger "over under' with a .22 caliber rifle on top and a 20gauge shotgun below.. with this setup and the diversity of shotgun shells available I can load it up with slugs for big game, buckshot, small game loads as well as bird shot options make this gun one of the most grabbed guns of all.
Ruger mostly sold these as a .22 over and a .410 gauge under and it is fine although limits what the gun can really do..
more choices..

shyrlock

07-28-2010, 10:23 AM

I agree with everyone who suggested getting a decent .22 rimfire first an learning to shoot with it. They are fun to shoot, economical and dont have the recoil and big bang of centerfire guns.
I made my living as a gunsmith for a while and I got to work on a lot of shotguns and rifles. As it has been said, with shotguns, fit is very important. Good stock work is expensive and hard to find. It would be much better to try out some different shotguns.
A good gunsmith or shooting store sales person can get you in the ballpark without any shots being fired.
As for centerfire rifles, of the brands you mentioned, I would go with the Remington M700. It has a better bolt locking system, and probably has the best out of the box accuracy.
As far as I am concerned, Winchester went to crap in 1964, and never got back.
Brownings (which are all made in Japan, I think) are very nice guns. I never cared for their rotary bolt design though. It sounds like a good idea, but in reality, you are lucky if 20% of the bolt lugs are actually in contact with the reciever lugs.
Also their trigger group assemblies are not as solid as the Remington.
My personal hunting rifle is a Ruger 77 with a fiberglass stock and a Douglas #4 contour premium grade barrel. Cut and crowned to 20", wearing a Zeiss 4X non-adjustable (trouble free) scope and chambered for the venerable and highly effective 30-06.
With a good load I can hunt anything that walks in the "lower 48"
At any rate I hope you get what you like and enjoy shooting it.
Best Regards,
Mike

cjokrap

07-28-2010, 02:16 PM

As a self-proclaimed "gun nut", I would say the "one gun to do it all" option is not the way I would go. Although a you can very successfully kill deer with firing a slug from a shotgun, like many other things on this site, having a rifle specifically for deer (or a specialized slug gun, depending on your state) and a separate shotgun for birds, can be very rewarding. If you have one gun, you will likely limit your hunting range, unless you plan to scope your shotgun. I hunt with a Winchester .30-.30 lever action (adjustable aperture, can't bear to scope a work of art like that) and/or a Savage .243 (scoped). I also have two Citori over/under (12 ga and 20 ga) for pheasent and skeet.

This is all my opinion, and the only way to truly know what you want is to handle the firearms and find out what you want. There are ranges that will allow you to rent weapons to fire to get a feel for what you want.

Good luck, and safe shooting!

gaseousclay

07-28-2010, 04:53 PM

As a self-proclaimed "gun nut", I would say the "one gun to do it all" option is not the way I would go. Although a you can very successfully kill deer with firing a slug from a shotgun, like many other things on this site, having a rifle specifically for deer (or a specialized slug gun, depending on your state) and a separate shotgun for birds, can be very rewarding.

I agree with you on this point, however, I simply don't have the funds to go out and buy two separate guns. trust me, if I could buy a pump shotgun and a bolt-action rifle I would, but I figured since this is a new interest it wouldn't be prudent to spend that kind of money just yet. as you know, gun sports can be very expensive and knowing myself I would probably want the best for myself.

gaseousclay

07-28-2010, 06:08 PM

Brownings (which are all made in Japan, I think) are very nice guns.

that's weird that a country that bans guns happens to produce guns at the same time. :001_huh:

gaseousclay

07-28-2010, 06:10 PM

does anyone have any ideas as to what a used Remington 870 Wingmaster goes for these days?

gaseousclay

07-28-2010, 06:46 PM

also, what's the difference between a centerfire and rimfire rifle?

garyg

07-28-2010, 06:53 PM

does anyone have any ideas as to what a used Remington 870 Wingmaster goes for these days?

That is another of the great YMMV genre, it will depend on the exact model & condition. There is an actual "Blue Book of Gun Values", that defines prices by model (the Wingmaster came in Deluxe, Field, Small Guage, 50th Anniversary, 100th Anniversary, Dale Earnhart Tribute, NRA edition, Super Magnum, Magnum Duck, & probably other models). The prices in the edition I have range from $815 for a 50th Classic Trap down to $150 for a Field Model, Plain Barrel, in "60%" condition ..

DavyRay

07-28-2010, 06:55 PM

Check out this page. Right at the top.

http://homestudy.ihea.com/ammo/05rim_centerf.htm

gaseousclay

07-28-2010, 07:50 PM

Check out this page. Right at the top.

http://homestudy.ihea.com/ammo/05rim_centerf.htm

thanks!

noahpictures

07-30-2010, 11:46 AM

Ruger Packer

07-30-2010, 12:52 PM

That is another of the great YMMV genre, it will depend on the exact model & condition. There is an actual "Blue Book of Gun Values", that defines prices by model (the Wingmaster came in Deluxe, Field, Small Guage, 50th Anniversary, 100th Anniversary, Dale Earnhart Tribute, NRA edition, Super Magnum, Magnum Duck, & probably other models). The prices in the edition I have range from $815 for a 50th Classic Trap down to $150 for a Field Model, Plain Barrel, in "60%" condition ..

To add a bit to Gary's post.... another factor, locality. In some parts of the country certain guns will sell for more than in another. In a part of the country where only shotguns are legal for deer hunting there will be more of them than in a part of the country like Wyoming where you'll find more rifles than shotguns.

Also, my advice when buying used, NEVER pay the asking price. Cash is good and sellers will usually come down 20-25%. At least thats my experience. :thumbup1:

LinuxMintyFresh

07-30-2010, 02:33 PM

I dont know about anyone else, but I thoroughly enjoy my Browing BPS 12g. It's a great looking, feeling, and working gun. I think it's a little wierd that people have expressed the opinion that these guns are on the higher end. I don't remember what it cost me, but I never got the impression that Browning was very much more expensive than a comparable Winchester or Remington. They may be tad bit more expensive, but not the "4 times as much" that somebody mentioned.

gaseousclay

07-31-2010, 08:07 AM

If I were you, I'd get a pump shot gun. They are durable, versatile and simple to operate. You can switch from slugs to buckshot depending on what you want to hunt. Also great for self-defense. Remington 870 would be the first choice but they're a bit more pricey, Mossberg would be the second choice and Winchester would be third in IMO.

has anyone had problems with Remington 870's jamming? I'm sure these are isolated incidences and perhaps only happen with newer models but i'd like to know if this is common.

gaseousclay

07-31-2010, 08:09 AM

Also, my advice when buying used, NEVER pay the asking price. Cash is good and sellers will usually come down 20-25%. At least thats my experience. :thumbup1:

surely this wouldn't work if you're buying a used gun on consignment, right? I've seen a lot of used firearms at sporting goods stores, so my guess is that there's the seller asking price and perhaps some sorta consignment fee by the store selling your gun? if it were a gun show I could see the cash discount option being there, but not a reputable store

shyrlock

07-31-2010, 04:50 PM

Remmy 870's have a pretty much sterling reputation for functioning all the time, hot or cold, wet or dry.
Thats why the military and most law enforcement agencies rely on them.
There are some brands of ammo that may not work properly in all guns. These are imported economy brands. If you stick with Remington, Winchester or Federal shells, you won't have a problem. If it turns out that you really enjoy shooting a shotgun and you want to save some money on ammo, consider reloading your own. It is fairly inexpensive to get started and is not difficult to learn. If you do that, you will be in charge of your own quality control.

SRock

07-31-2010, 06:35 PM

on that note, can someone please explain to me the difference between the Remington 870 Wingmaster and the 870 Express? is the Express made of lighter, cheaper materials, hence the cheaper price tag?

...

As far as Wingmaster vs Express, my understanding is it is just fancier materials & finishes on the higher end. When I have browzed for parts for an Express it appears that the guts of the gun are the same, but barrel & wood finishes are different.

:yesnod: Internally they are the same beast but barrel length/type (fixed or adjustable) and the "fanciness" if you will varies. You are getting what you pay for.

that's weird that a country that bans guns happens to produce guns at the same time. :001_huh:

Actually you can own guns in Japan. You just can't own handguns or carry them. I have a few close friends who regularly hunt deer/bear.

does anyone have any ideas as to what a used Remington 870 Wingmaster goes for these days?

If you really keep an eye out you can find 870's of varying types for anything from $99 on up.

has anyone had problems with Remington 870's jamming? I'm sure these are isolated incidences and perhaps only happen with newer models but i'd like to know if this is common.

On word...

NO

About the only issue I've seen (in 11 years of gunsmithing) with the 870 is people tearing out the shell latches inside. Normally if/when that happens it is due to the operator being unnecessarily rough/careless while cleaning it.

Remmy 870's have a pretty much sterling reputation for functioning all the time, hot or cold, wet or dry.
Thats why the military and most law enforcement agencies rely on them.
There are some brands of ammo that may not work properly in all guns. These are imported economy brands. If you stick with Remington, Winchester or Federal shells, you won't have a problem. If it turns out that you really enjoy shooting a shotgun and you want to save some money on ammo, consider reloading your own. It is fairly inexpensive to get started and is not difficult to learn. If you do that, you will be in charge of your own quality control.

:thumbup1:

gaseousclay

08-01-2010, 07:26 AM

well, the missus did a great job for our 1st wedding anniversary - she's gonna have a friend of ours take me trap shooting. yay!

gaseousclay

08-01-2010, 07:29 AM

If you really keep an eye out you can find 870's of varying types for anything from $99 on up.

where might I find these types of deals? it seems like when I look online I can't find the Wingmaster for less than $450 used. I don't wanna skimp on quality and I can understand if the Wingmaster retains its value, but surely there are certain places to look that will give me more pricing options

ctr

08-01-2010, 07:40 AM

has anyone had problems with Remington 870's jamming? I'm sure these are isolated incidences and perhaps only happen with newer models but i'd like to know if this is common.

Yes, all attributed to user error. Older 870's would fail to go into battery when new if the pump was not pushed all the way forward with enthusiasm.

The follower and magazine spring assembly should be taken apart and cleaned every 6 months or so. I once failed to do so and had a pretty frustrating time on the trap line one cold wintery day.

When 870's are maintained properly though, they are as closs to 100% reliable as you can get.

SRock

08-02-2010, 04:38 AM

well, the missus did a great job for our 1st wedding anniversary - she's gonna have a friend of ours take me trap shooting. yay!

She's a keeper!

where might I find these types of deals? it seems like when I look online I can't find the Wingmaster for less than $450 used. I don't wanna skimp on quality and I can understand if the Wingmaster retains its value, but surely there are certain places to look that will give me more pricing options

Keep en eye out in the classifieds in your local paper(s). Check pawn shops as well as gun stores.

You can also watch eBang (http://www.ebang.com/) and Guns America (http://www.gunsamerica.com/) for deals as well.

$99 would be a steal (I've seen 'em that cheap) but its not that unusual to find them in the $200-$250 range. I'll keep an eye out for you. Are you set on the Wingmaster and in 12ga?

gaseousclay

08-02-2010, 05:46 AM

Keep en eye out in the classifieds in your local paper(s). Check pawn shops as well as gun stores.

You can also watch eBang (http://www.ebang.com/) and Guns America (http://www.gunsamerica.com/) for deals as well.

$99 would be a steal (I've seen 'em that cheap) but its not that unusual to find them in the $200-$250 range. I'll keep an eye out for you. Are you set on the Wingmaster and in 12ga?

cheers. i'll keep an eye out for used stuff. there are a couple of businesses i'm gonna check out as well. i'm definitely set on the wingmaster 12ga. you don't have to keep an eye out for me. I don't see a gun purchase being imminent, as i'm still looking to take safety courses. thanks for offering though. would craigslist be an option?

NBT

08-02-2010, 05:56 AM

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9836096&oh=216543

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9837858&oh=216543

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9832045&oh=216543

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/auctions.aspx

gaseousclay

08-02-2010, 10:02 AM

I went to Gander Mountain today and have to say that i'm completely put off by these chain stores now. I was the only guy browsing the gun section and the person working did nothing except stand behind his counter - he didn't ask me if I needed help nor did he even bother to look in my direction. guns don't sell themselves and if this is going to be the mantra of how to do business then i'll spend my money elsewhere. incidentally, I stopped at the gun pawnshop near my house and of course those guys were completely friendly to me. they also relayed to me the same horrible experience they had at Gander Mtn. I can honestly say i'm really pissed about this. I know I shouldn't let two incidences sway my opinion but if these two chance trips to chain stores resulted in the same lack of customer service then they won't get business from me in the future.

*rant over*

mskembo

08-02-2010, 10:13 AM

I know I shouldn't let two incidences sway my opinion but if these two chance trips to chain stores resulted in the same lack of customer service then they won't get business from me in the future.

*rant over*

Yes you should let those two instances sway your opinion! If a business is not concerned enough to make a sale, then they aren't going to treat you right after the sale! That being said, I prefer to deal with independent retailers (i.e. Mom and Pop stores) Typically the people in the store understand that in order to stay in business they have to assist the customers. That being said, you will pay a little more, but to me that is just paying a premium to receive the quality of service I want.

BTW, as to the original point of the thread. My brothers and I have been avid shooters almost all of our lives, we especially love wing shooting, and have amassed a good collection of shotguns. In my experience the gun you choose matters less than having it setup for you. I bought an older Beretta A 300 and couldn't shoot more than 6 in 10, but I took it to a qualified gunsmith, and had it fitted to me. Now it's my weapon of choice for target, and hunting.

Mike

gaseousclay

08-07-2010, 05:19 AM

The best investment anyone considering a firearm can make is professional training. Not from an "uncle who was in the Army", or a "friend who knows all about guns". Take at least a weekend course from a reputable instructor in the shooting discipline that most strikes your fancy. The answers to most of your questions will become clear, you'll have fun, and you'll have a solid foundation upon which to build. Otherwise all your practice will be only reinforcing bad habits.

And the safety basics can't be repeated too often:

1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for most inadvertent discharges. Keep your booger-hook off the bang-button.

4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. A tiny lawyer is attached to every projectile that you launch.

yep. i'm still looking into hunter training courses, so i've got that covered. i'm gonna have my friend go over the safety basics with me before we go trap shooting too.

btw, I know someone mentioned it here but what's the general consensus on the Browning BPS Hunter? based on the reviews I've read, it seems like a lot of hunters dislike that the shells eject from the bottom and that it's a pain in the butt to disassemble for cleaning. I like that it has the safety on the top of the gun. don't know much else about it though

Ulfherjar

08-07-2010, 05:21 AM

Lifetime gun user, hunter, Army vet here. I have owned/used a Browning Sweet 16, Remington 870 and 1100 Auto, Winchester Model 12, and a Mossberg 500. All of these performed marvelously and never ever let me down. I agree with all previous assessments in that the use, fit, and look are of utmost importance to each individual. However, All of the guns I mentioned are off the shelf beauties, except maybe the Mossberg...Gentlemen, I have never found an instance though, where that 1936 Winchester Model 12 w/ Full choke and 28" barrel didn't put meat on my table. As far as rifles, again, Remington 700 in caliber of choice, Winchester 70... time tested. Accuracy is atested by both serving as sniper rifles for the Army and Marine Corps. This is my humble opinion and enjoy the trail to your picking and choosing!

gaseousclay

08-08-2010, 07:50 PM

I still don't know which gun i'm gonna go with. the Browning BPS Hunter is starting to look good to me, and I don't really mind if the shells eject from the bottom. but, I suppose once I start developing GAD i'll eventually own several guns, so I guess I shouldn't worry which comes first

SRock

08-09-2010, 01:29 AM

gaseousclay

08-09-2010, 04:40 AM

Trust me, you don't want GAD it is horribly expensive.

i'm sure. I suspect GAD will be slow going for me since I have a finite amount of money laying around. and my wife would probably leave me if I suddently started accumulating firearms

SRock

08-09-2010, 04:44 AM

i'm sure. I suspect GAD will be slow going for me since I have a finite amount of money laying around. and my wife would probably leave me if I suddently started accumulating firearms

I knew I was safe when my wife bought me a new concealed carry pistol for our first anniversary. :cool: She may surprise you... :lol:

gaseousclay

08-09-2010, 07:33 AM

I knew I was safe when my wife bought me a new concealed carry pistol for our first anniversary. :cool: She may surprise you... :lol:

I think my wife is slowly coming around. she used to have her own prejudices against firearms (and their owners) but she's surrounded by people that are hunters, especially family. this has allowed her to dispel a lot of the negative publicity guns generally have. she still won't allow me to have firearms in the house which i'm more than willing to respect, so that's better than nothing at all.

LinuxMintyFresh

08-09-2010, 06:23 PM

yep. i'm still looking into hunter training courses, so i've got that covered. i'm gonna have my friend go over the safety basics with me before we go trap shooting too.

btw, I know someone mentioned it here but what's the general consensus on the Browning BPS Hunter? based on the reviews I've read, it seems like a lot of hunters dislike that the shells eject from the bottom and that it's a pain in the butt to disassemble for cleaning. I like that it has the safety on the top of the gun. don't know much else about it though

Again, I don't know about the consensus, but I love my BPS. I've never had to disassemble the receiver for cleaning so I don't know about that, but it's easy enough to remove the barrel and get a nylon brush in there. I have no problem with the shells ejecting from the bottom; I prefer it actually. My only problem would be that is is almost too good looking for me. Any time I ding it up hunting or hiking I feel bad.

gaseousclay

08-09-2010, 06:29 PM

Again, I don't know about the consensus, but I love my BPS. I've never had to disassemble the receiver for cleaning so I don't know about that, but it's easy enough to remove the barrel and get a nylon brush in there. I have no problem with the shells ejecting from the bottom; I prefer it actually. My only problem would be that is is almost too good looking for me. Any time I ding it up hunting or hiking I feel bad.

may I ask what you paid for yours? what's the going rate for a mint condition used BPS Hunter these days? I don't think the shells ejecting from the bottom should be a problem for me, but then again, i've never fired a gun in my life so I guess i'm indifferent to this feature.

LinuxMintyFresh

08-09-2010, 07:20 PM

may I ask what you paid for yours? what's the going rate for a mint condition used BPS Hunter these days? I don't think the shells ejecting from the bottom should be a problem for me, but then again, i've never fired a gun in my life so I guess i'm indifferent to this feature.

I got mine as a gift from my father so I didn't pay for it, but I think the run between 500 and 600 dollars new. The price used would depend on the shape it's in and the circumstances (pawn shop, classified, estate sale...).

gaseousclay

08-09-2010, 07:36 PM

I think it's been mentioned already but what can some of you tell me about 'fit'? I'm 5'11" and weigh about 185 lbs. I know that fit is different for everybody and that ideally a knowledgeable salesperson could help me with this, but I figured some of you may be in the same height/weight range as me and could give me a general idea of what I should look for. would a 28" barrel be suitable for someone like me? 26"?

Bullwinkle

08-09-2010, 08:19 PM

fit.. lop is the first thing (the distance between the trigger and the end of the stock) too long and you will have trouble getting the gun up to your shoulder and it will also feel 'front' heavy. Too short and you will feel cramped. Both will result in a sore cheek. Then there is cast 'on' or 'off' a slight bending of the stock to give you a natural line of sighting. I wouldn't worry about having this done until you get some time with the gun and get use to shooting it. A good recoil pad and good hearing protection (yellow form are the best with muffs over them even better. (good hearing aids these days go for about $6K). The 12ga BPS Hunter weighs in at about 7.5 pounds. MSRP is $599. I would recommend the 28" unless you are going to spend a lot of time in the woods. Then I would recommend a lighter shorter model. If you are buying used be sure you get the choke tubes that came with it and that if hasn't been shorten or bent (cast on/off) for some else. Since this is you first shotgun I would recommend new.. if the MSRP is $599 you will find it cheaper. With hunting season coming up watch all the ads and watch the Browning site as they usually have rebates that time of year. DON'T let your friends talk you into try a 3in shell..

check out the Browning web site for all the BPS options and Google shotgun fitting and you will find more then you will ever need to know.

gaseousclay

08-10-2010, 05:26 AM

DON'T let your friends talk you into try a 3in shell..

thanks for the info :thumbup:

btw, i've also read that 3 1/2 in shells are bad. so what's the standard? I thought most pump shotguns could handle 2 3/4 & 3in shells. what are the pros and cons of each?

Bullwinkle

08-10-2010, 05:56 AM

2 3/4" is pretty much standard for about everything. 3" for larger stuff like Turkey's & Gooses. The BPS won't chamber anything larger. 2 3/4 come in endless load combo's pellet size, power, etc..

gaseousclay

08-27-2010, 07:28 PM

today I stopped at Mills Fleet Farm to take a look at more guns and didn't have much luck. the guys working behind the counter didn't even know what I was talking about when I asked about the Remington 870 Wingmaster. one guy said, "the win-master? never heard of it." I told him it was the Remington Express' big brother. the other guy swore up and down about Remington but said he had never heard of Browning before which left me scratching my head. they were good about trying to help me, but sadly their lack of firearm knowledge left me disappointed. not surprising since it was a Mills Fleet Farm.

there was a Gander Mtn across the hiway so I figured i'd give it one last try - once again I was completely ignored. I don't even know why I bothered. I saw two salesmen helping a father and son - why it required two of them to assist a customer is a mystery to me.

looks like Cabela's will be next on my list of stores to visit. I hope it's worth it

matt711

08-28-2010, 06:25 AM

Lots of really great advice in this thread, and you won't go wrong with most of it. Pump Actions Shotguns are a great place to start as the act of cycling the action tends to put you back on target after you fire a round. If you enjoy the skeet/trap shooting and decide to continue with it you may find yourself looking more and more at a double barrel, over and under style shotgun. They tend to be much more expensive than pumps. So my advice would be to start off with an inexpensive pump, and as far as that goes Mossberg is pretty hard to beat. They are reliable, readily available, and inexpensive.

If you intend to use your shotgun for hunting then you may never feel the urge to move up (in price anyway) to a double gun. In that case a more expensive and nicer to look at Remington or Browning would probably be a good choice. One factor to keep in mind is that the elements will do their best to turn your beautiful shotgun into a rusty, scratched up mess. No matter how careful you are you are doing to get a few nicks and dings when moving around in the woods. So when you look at that brand new shotgun on display in the store ask yourself if the "extra fancy wood" or "engraving" are worth the money on a hunting shotgun.

I hope your first trip to the range is as enjoyable as it can be. Ask and look around at what others are using. Most shooters will be more than happy to let you take a look at what they are using. Just remember the golden rule, the wepon is always loaded and you will be good to go.

Be safe,

Matt

gaseousclay

09-02-2010, 06:13 PM

I'm feeling myself now starting to want a centerfire bolt-action rifle over a shotgun. I didn't think i'd become so engrossed in all of this but every time I go to a sporting goods store I can't help but admire the selection of firearms out there. I really like the Remington 700 and Winchester Model 70. I guess it wouldn't be a bad thing if I got a rifle before I got a shotgun, mainly because I could easily take the rifle to the shooting range and fire off a few rounds by myself. when I was at the pawnshop yesterday I came across a few used Browning pumps, Remington pumps, Winchester 30-30 lever action rifles and a bunch of others for around the $300-350 mark. saw a nice looking 20ga Winchester 1300 w/chokes for $350 and was thinking I should've picked it up. but damn, a rifle with a nice scope on it sounds good too

garyg

09-02-2010, 06:25 PM

JamieW

09-02-2010, 06:32 PM

...DON'T let your friends talk you into try a 3in shell..

MA is a shotgun only state for deer. I've dropped a lot of deer with 3" shells (slug in the pipe, buckshot behind it) in my Mossberg 500...

maxman

09-02-2010, 06:36 PM

A Remington 700 with a Leupold VX-II scope is a deadly combo.

gaseousclay

09-02-2010, 07:17 PM

If I recall, you wanted it for hunting .. the question is what ? If birds it is a shotgun, deer can be shotgun or rifle, or smokepole, or handgun too .. What are the firearm laws where you want to hunt or use it? Here in the Great Lakes we have shotgun zone below Saginaw, Rifle above for da deer ..

I'd like to hunt a combo of water fowl and deer, hence the shotgun. but a high-powered rifle would be also be nice and specifically used for big game hunting, whether it be deer, elk, moose or whatever.

in Minnesota you can hunt deer with a shotgun or rifle, but we also have designated 'zones' for each weapon. I still don't know what caliber would be appropriate for me - i've been looking at 30-06, .270 and .308 calibers. I know ammo for .270's are way expensive so that'll be a factor in what I choose, however, i'm also looking for rifles that don't have too much recoil but also pack a punch and are all around good hunting rifles that can take anything down. I saw a few used Remington 700's and a couple Winchester Model 70's at the pawnshop, but i'm not sure what's considered a fair price for these rifles. I know several of you have suggested I get a .22 as my first gun to practice on but the truth is, I don't have an interest in a small caliber 'varmint gun' to practice with. i'd rather get a bigger caliber rifle and practice with that, as i'm sure there's a noticeable difference in recoil between a .22 and something like a 30-06.

gaseousclay

09-05-2010, 06:22 AM

can anyone offer some advice on buying used rifles and/or shotguns? my local gun pawnshop has the rifle I want (Remington 700) in the $400-600 range but since it'll be my first gun purchase I don't know what questions to ask, let alone what to look for in a used rifle or shotgun. of course, there are the cosmetic signs of wear and tear that will catch my eye but what about internal mechanisms or potential faults? most of the nicer rifles and shotguns are kept behind the counter at the pawnshop, so i'm guessing at a glance the majority of them are in great condition. what about pricing? I know NIB Remington 700's can be had for $700-800, so is $400-600 a fair price for used? what about year of manufacture? will older models be worth more? less?

garyg

09-05-2010, 10:57 AM

Unless you are expert or have a friend who is I would be leery of pawnshop guns. While most modern name brand firearms would probably turn out ok from the pawn, I don't think you would have any recourse at all if something was wrong. You would be better off buying from an established, non Big Box gun shop who would warrant that the gun was in safe operating condition at least.

As far as the caliber, that is one of the YMMV things, the 3 you named .270, 30-06, .308 are all similar in performance, very good general purpose big game rounds, but there are differences. I like the .270 myself, it shoots the flattest of those three. But the 30-06 is available in a wider variety of bullet weights for different types of hunting, while in the same weight weapon the .308 has less recoil than the other two (also less velocity in a similar round). The .270 ammunition does not cost appreciably more to buy than the other two, unless you are buying military surplus stuff, which precludes .270 I think.

gaseousclay

09-05-2010, 02:32 PM

Unless you are expert or have a friend who is I would be leery of pawnshop guns. While most modern name brand firearms would probably turn out ok from the pawn, I don't think you would have any recourse at all if something was wrong. You would be better off buying from an established, non Big Box gun shop who would warrant that the gun was in safe operating condition at least.

normally I would agree, but this particular pawnshop is a known gun pawnshop that has been around for years. they have a pretty decent looking used selection of rifles and shotguns to boot. plus, I have a feeling that other stores would charge an inflated price for their used guns. I guess I could always ask the pawnshop if their guns are in good working condition

gaseousclay

09-22-2010, 06:38 AM

knlgskr

09-22-2010, 08:43 AM

Good thread with good advice. When purchasing a firearm used seldom equates to abused and it will be new to you. Most firearms unless specialty i.e. target/competition probably have not been fired much so used can be a good buy. If concerned about a used firearm, ask if you can have a gunsmith examine it; if they won't, ask why and perhaps eliminate from consideration or take someone with you whose knowledge you trust and minor problems can equate to lower price. If you are sold a defective/unsafe firearm it can definitely be a problem for the seller; think Small Claims Court, etc.. Price especially for used firearms is what they want; what they will take may be different, negotiate. Ask if there is a discount for cash; if you don't ask, they won't say. Owners can always negotiate, sales personnel often cannot but there is someone who can; findum. If no discount, use a credit card and if you have a problem the credit card company will represent you and businesses don't want to get on their "bad" list. "Shopping around" is always a good idea especially nowadays; get your lowest price and ask other businesses if they can match or beat it or what they will give you in lieu of a lower price. Consider using your computer to shop and then visit those offering the best deal. Do the "Full Monty" package in your solicitation i.e. scope, case, sling, cleaning supplies, etc.; that can also get you discounts. Don't be afraid to say "NO"! It is your money and a customer lost is gone forever and don't be afraid to complain about how you are treated; a squeaking wheel gets the grease and businesses do care at the top. Be ye courteous always regardless of how you are treated; it is a valuable tool; "See Dick insult customer, see customer complain,leave, tell others about Dick; see sales decline, see Dick get fired in bad economic times and see store close; don't be a Dick." Think like Pawn Stars, American Pickers, read Chester Karrass. "Tis better to boast (if ye must) of how little rather than how much you paid; the former will get you respect, the latter contempt, fools and their money are soon parted." Consider if allowed by law, purchasing from an individual often can be your best buy. The above is applicable to any significant purchase. I don't like to see anyone overcharged, cheated, etc. including myself.

The firearms mentioned are all excellent; can't be much wrong when millions have been manufactured and sold. You can load a 12 ga. like a smaller ga. but not vice versa. "Ain't much you can't fix with a thousand dollars and a 30-06." A Mauser 98K, Lee Enfield Mark 4 both in .308 have served well and faithfully as have Remington, Savage, Sako, Winchester, Browning, and all the others over the years; may yours do likewise.

Thank you one and all, this has been a most enjoyable and educational thread. This organization never fails to reveal a plethora of information that is useful and factual on every subject I have seen.

Snipersnest

09-22-2010, 09:19 AM

I might be a little late on this one, but before you buy anything, go to your local gun club and ask questions. Most members will let you try out what they're using to fam fire it. No one has mentioned it yet, but a Ruger M77V is a great rifle. That's what we used on our sniper team in .308 with a Leupold scope. You could shoot the balls off a gnat with that baby. They're reasonably priced and it's a quality rifle. I shot an elk with mine in Idaho. As far as a shotgun, a Remington 870 is a good gun. Well built and has twin bars on the slide which makes the action smooth. As far as the scope goes, I've known guys who'll spend big bucks on a rifle and but scrimp on the scope. Buy a quality scope, I prefer Leupold out of all the scopes I've used.

SRock

09-23-2010, 02:55 AM

well, after much research i've decided i'm going to buy myself the Winchester Model 70 Super Grade. my other choice was the Remington 700 CDL but I think that'll have to wait for another day. Now I just need to figure out which scope to buy -- Leupold or N<A HREF="http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/index.php/Banned_Filtered_Vendor">*Filtered Vendor*</A>?

Your research for a good scope will have mostly the same questions... What will you use it for primarily? What options will you actually use? If you aren't looking to spend a ton of money you have many options such as Bushnell. If you want fancy and a name you are right its hard to go wrong with a Leupold.

WilliamIam

09-30-2010, 01:44 AM

IMO and those of my dad, who was a WWII paratrooper,
Browning, Winchester, and Remington are among the best firearm companies.

The info's a little out of date.

I've inherited my dad's rifles: a 1912 model Remington pump .22LR, an 1896 model lever-action .25-.35 Winchester, a mossberg 50's era (I think) semi-auto .22lr, and a .25 acp beretta jetfire 950.

The Winchester and Remington are much better quality, and more reliable than the mossberg is. It may be that they're made many years apart.
The .25-.35 is a great rifle, and ammo is terribly expensive at $2+ per shell. It is the most accurate and deadly thing I've ever fired.

Any of the brands you mentioned will give you fine rifles, but you need to use a rifle before you buy it. And you should use several before you decide on one.

The most important question is why are you buying a gun?

Happy Shaves

Kione

09-30-2010, 02:54 AM

I know a license is necessary to hunt but what about to simply own a firearm? if I were to go to a gun shop could I just buy a shotgun or rifle or is there some sort of background check they would need to do? I know this is generally done for handguns and that you need to have a conceal and carry permit, but what about shotguns and rifles?

Speaking for the US only, and state laws vary so be sure to check things out.
To own a fire arm no licence is needed. To do anything with one is sometimes different.:001_rolle
As far as buying things go, for long guns, (any non-handgun) when you try and purchase one you, as mentioned before fill out form 4473 for the ATF and the retailer has to run a N.I.C.S. Background check (National Instant Criminal System) So long as you pass that, (No violent crime convictions etc.) then that should be it unless some other state law is in the way or something.

As far as Recommendations? I can't say much that hasn't been said. I prefer Browning shotguns but they cost a lot, Remington is a lovely maker too. Mossberg is excellent as far as bare bones. But you tend to pay for the cheapness in a harder kick and a bit less smoothness of operation, still an nice sturdy weapon though.

Rifles, I second the .22 Savage Idea. Than look around, suit what you are going to do with it to the type, for typical mid-range hunting you don't need high dollar stuff if you are comfortable with your weapon.

Biggest 2 things here :excl: First Safety, never get careless, it kills. Secondly, take the time to learn to shoot, get comfy with the basics and really learn your first gun. Shoot a lot and don't be afraid to ask advice or to have fun. If you know how to shoot you can compensate for everything else. As a Gunsmith (as soon as the atf allows me it'll be my job) I get a lotta folks wanting this mod or that to their rifle/shotgun. And honestly If you're a good shot then there is no need for a 2.5 trigger on your hunting rifle. 4,8, heck even 12 pound is fine so long as you take your time, and get comfortable shooting. A lot like DE shaveing I guess.:001_smile

So get out there and have fun. Shooting is a blast.:thumbup:

gaseousclay

09-30-2010, 05:21 AM

Any of the brands you mentioned will give you fine rifles, but you need to use a rifle before you buy it. And you should use several before you decide on one.

The most important question is why are you buying a gun?

Happy Shaves

the problem with this is that the only people I know with rifles are my in-laws and they're plenty busy. I do realize that fit is important but then again, if the rifle doesn't work out I can always turn around and sell it. I think the question I invariably ask myself is, what if neither the Remington 700 or the Winchester M70 'fit' me, then what? my in-laws have Remingtons and nothing else from what I know, so this leaves me very few options as far as trying new rifles go.

I'm buying a rifle because I want to learn to hunt and the idea of being in the great outdoors is appealing to me. it isn't because I want to kill something or because I feel it fills some masculine void in my life -- I genuinely want to learn to hunt.

gaseousclay

10-07-2010, 02:03 PM

okay, I gotta question for you Remington experts out there. which is the better rifle, the Remington 700 BDL or CDL? what are the differences exactly? is it the finish of the stock?

SRock

10-08-2010, 01:36 AM

okay, I gotta question for you Remington experts out there. which is the better rifle, the Remington 700 BDL or CDL? what are the differences exactly? is it the finish of the stock?

Aside from aesthetics I know the BDL is available in more calibers than the CDL.

gaseousclay

10-08-2010, 05:59 AM

Aside from aesthetics I know the BDL is available in more calibers than the CDL.

they both have the hinged floor plate too. I was always under the impression that the CDL was cosmetically more attractive than the BDL

SRock

10-08-2010, 11:13 PM

they both have the hinged floor plate too. I was always under the impression that the CDL was cosmetically more attractive than the BDL

Other than caliber I think appearance is the biggest difference. When I purchase a firearm aesthetics is the very last thing I consider. I start with desired caliber, then look at sights, trigger options, carry configurations (handguns) and work my way through all of the operational aspects of the gun. Last is always appearance.

gaseousclay

10-11-2010, 01:11 PM

SRock

10-12-2010, 05:05 AM

http://i52.tinypic.com/23w2u7r.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/nn2kj4.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/160ad68.jpg

well, I went and bought a rifle via gunbroker.com. just won this Browning A-Bolt .270 win and it's practically brand new. apparently it's unfired and has been sitting in a gunsafe. how'd I do?

Browning makes good stuff.

This:

it's practically brand new. apparently it's unfired and has been sitting in a gunsafe

Made me think of Full Metal Jacket:

"Never been fired and only dropped once."

Jim

10-12-2010, 09:24 AM

Good one! Now you need some glass!

gaseousclay

10-12-2010, 11:58 AM

Browning makes good stuff.

yeah, i've read nothing but good things about the A-Bolt. the funny thing is, I wasn't planning on purchasing a Browning rifle. I was initially gonna buy either a Winchester M70 or a Remington 700, but I got a pretty good deal on the Browning I couldn't pass it up. I hope it doesn't turn out to be a lemon.

Good one! Now you need some glass!

right now i'm trying to decide between a Leupold VX3 or a Nikon Monarch. there's a store on ebay selling what appears to be older but new Nikon Monarch scopes for a little over $200 w/free shipping. unfortunately, my new rifle has a shiney gloss stock and the Nikon scopes are a matte black finish which I think would look kinda weird.

garyg

10-12-2010, 01:39 PM

yeah, i've read nothing but good things about the A-Bolt. the funny thing is, I wasn't planning on purchasing a Browning rifle. I was initially gonna buy either a Winchester M70 or a Remington 700, but I got a pretty good deal on the Browning I couldn't pass it up. I hope it doesn't turn out to be a lemon.

right now i'm trying to decide between a Leupold VX3 or a N*Filtered Vendor* (http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/index.php/Banned_Filtered_Vendor) Monarch. there's a store on ebay selling what appears to be older but new N*Filtered Vendor* (http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/index.php/Banned_Filtered_Vendor) Monarch scopes for a little over $200 w/free shipping. unfortunately, my new rifle has a shiney gloss stock and the N*Filtered Vendor* (http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/index.php/Banned_Filtered_Vendor) scopes are a matte black finish which I think would look kinda weird.

Nice choice, great all around caliber. Leopold for the scope, don't sweat trying to match the scope to the stock finish, one's wood, one metal after all. Most wouldn't care if the rings and scope matched the rifle's metal finish (gloss blue in your case?)

You know this is like shaving, right, first there's just one, then you need another, next you know you might want my .270 Win reloading set .. :)

gaseousclay

10-12-2010, 02:23 PM

You know this is like shaving, right, first there's just one, then you need another, next you know you might want my .270 Win reloading set .. :)

this is what scares me. I've seen quite a few nice looking firearms in the past 2 months and a lot for some really great deals. i'm afraid i'll see yet another rifle or shotgun for a good price and walk out of the store with it. I don't think my wife would be too happy

stobes21

10-12-2010, 02:38 PM

this is what scares me. I've seen quite a few nice looking firearms in the past 2 months and a lot for some really great deals. i'm afraid i'll see yet another rifle or shotgun for a good price and walk out of the store with it. I don't think my wife would be too happy

I hear you. When it comes to ADs I find that I can't spend too much time looking whistfully or reading about the items. So I avoid the "real" parts of B&B in order to not be tempted by that new soap or razor etc. For the same reason I stay off of gun boards and avoid gun stores. I still shave every day and I shoot regularly with the guns I have, but for the sake of marital bliss I stay away from the shops and forums.

Fortunately the relatively small number of gun threads here aren't too much to tempt me. Though I've long considered getting a bolt action rifle in .270 Win. Since I don't really hunt I don't know what I'd do with it, but damn I still look at yours and say "want!"

gaseousclay

10-12-2010, 04:05 PM

Fortunately the relatively small number of gun threads here aren't too much to tempt me. Though I've long considered getting a bolt action rifle in .270 Win. Since I don't really hunt I don't know what I'd do with it, but damn I still look at yours and say "want!"

do eet! if it'll make you feel any better i've never gone hunting either. this is my first gun purchase and I plan on taking it to the range to get used to how it shoots. it's equally hard for me when i'm out and about at some gun shop and am looking at dozens of beautiful rifles and shotguns all screaming, 'buy me!'

gaseousclay

10-22-2010, 08:07 PM

well, I finally received my gun today and it's a beaut. it was great to hold it in my hands and feel its weight. I brought it out to my in-laws house at the farm because that's where I have to keep it for the time being. I showed my father in-law and he comes out with his two rifles, one was a Remington semi-auto and the other was a Browning A-Bolt just like mine. his was a 270 WSM while mine is a .270 win. he's got a N_i_k_o_n UCC Monarch scope but I think i'm gonna go with a Leupold VXII or VXIII. anyway, I just thought it was amusing - we both looked like little kids on Christmas day after opening presents. our rifles were on the living room floor and we were both admiring each other's guns.