This is amazing to me...

[andrew98]

...yet so common over here in the UK:
http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Mondeo/FuelEconomyAndCO2Emissions
What gives? Ford (and every other manufacturer) sell some great cars of a reasonable size that get far better mileage than just about anything you can buy in the US. Do they really think there's no US demand for a 50 mpg diesel car? Perhaps diesel is the way forward for now.

-Andy

[Stubblefield]

...yet so common over here in the UK:
http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Mondeo/FuelEconomyAndCO2Emissions
What gives? Ford (and every other manufacturer) sell some great cars of a reasonable size that get far better mileage than just about anything you can buy in the US. Do they really think there's no US demand for a 50 mpg diesel car? Perhaps diesel is the way forward for now.

-AndyThat is a really decent looking car, with great economy, emissions, and features that are not usually available on US made cars. It is sad that Ford and others can't seem to figure out that if they brought these cars to the states that they would sell like hotcakes. I'd be happy to buy American if they were able to give me something with European styling and performance, but that simply seems off the table for Ford and GM. So I drive VW.

As for Diesel, it has never caught on with consumers here, and emissions have been an issue--but that is no longer the case. More people seem willing to consider one, and VW/BMW/Mercedes/Volvo make some great diesels (note: all Euro mfgs'). VW sells half of all diesels made in the EU, so if anyone can bring a diesel to the US it should be them. I'm personally hoping that as fuel prices trend upwards, more drivers adopt clean diesels, as they have similar performance to similar sized gasoline cars, have superior fuel economy, and are fairly quiet.

[faster_than_u]

The mondeo is a nice one. I did however like the previous model better. A lot of those features are available on the new taurus and fusion. They will make there way to all the other models soon though. The new fiesta is a great little car. It is rated at 42 mpg that is just short of the (dreadful) prius.

[Obsessed]

As for Diesel, it has never caught on with consumers here, and emissions have been an issue--but that is no longer the case.

I believe diesel cars are not available in NY and certain other states due to emissions issues, which is actually something I'd be concerned with. Have they really solved the problem?

Also, are the newer diesel cars easier to start in cold weather than the older models? That was always a big disadvantage to diesel cars in the northern U.S.

[citizensoldierny]

Could be because Ford and GM have been successful in selling behemoth , gas guzzling trucks and SUV's to every soccer mom in America. I'm not without guilt as I own a large SUV but I won't be replacing it with another one when the time comes. I also somewhat minimize my environmental impact by riding my motorcycle to about 5 months a year, so I can sleep at night.

[jzono1]

Remember the us/uk gallon difference. 50 mpg in the uk ain't 50 mpg in the us. Keep in mind that a gallon of diesel contains more energy than a gallon of gasoline. 40mpg from a diesel car isn't as impressive as 40mpg from a gasoline car.

Diesel emissions isn't a big problem anymore. Particle filters take away the big nasty particles that cause trouble on a regional basis - but it's not 100% perfect, as it lets through nasty small particles that affect people with breathing problems worse than a comparable gasoline engine.

Starting a diesel engine in cold weather isn't a problem at all. Keeping diesel from freezing is, and that's just a matter of logistics. (Mix the diesel right and it can handle very low temperatures.) At -22f or so it's a real problem for "normal" diesel. Starting the engine itself is comparable to a gasoline engine of the same displacement, and the battery has to be decent. Fitting a simple engine block heater is very simple, and a good solution for getting perfect reliability in cold climates.

Here in Norway, diesel is pretty popular, because diesel is taxed less, and diesel engines are favored by the taxation on new cars. Personally I can't stand the sound of a cold diesel engine, and I don't care much for it when it reaches operational temperatures either. ClackClackClackClackClack... Besides, gasoline cars simply more fun to drive.

Just look at the curves for a normal diesel engine and a normal gasoline engine, both GM:
GM 1.7CDTI 16v 100BHP:
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s314/astraownersclub/Engines/graph_17cdti16v100ps.gif
Z18XE - 1.8 16v (125BHP)
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s314/astraownersclub/Engines/graph_18i16v.gif
For an avereage driver the diesel has more power where it usually operates. (Both with automatics and with sticks.) The low-end torque makes for a very comfortable driving experience.

Source with more info on these engines: http://www.astraownersclub.com/vb/showthread.php?t=97974 http://www.astraownersclub.com/vb/showthread.php?t=98092

My mom has the 1.7CDTI in her '10 Opel Astra Station Wagon. It touches 60mpg on longer trips. It stays around 45mpg with her daily driving to work+in town.
I got the 1.8 16v in my '02 Astra Coupe. Does around 40mpg with my driving. I push it slightly, but not excessively. Active driving on windy roads is fun.

[shavewithbigelow]

Besides, gasoline cars simply more fun to drive

Especially big block V8s with 4-barrel carbs!

[beginish]

I read somewhere that new regulations on the sulfur content of diesel fuel went into effect in the last year or two. The result has been that existing diesel engines using the newly formulated fuel are as close to zero emissions as you can come for a fuel burning engine.

[Commander Quan]

What is the cost of diesel Vs. gas in Europe? At least were I am the cost fluctuates from diesel being 10 cents higher than gas to 60 cents or more higher per gallon.

I've never owned or even driven a diesel powered car before, but I am certainly not opposed to owning one.

[jzono1]

begnish: zero emissions when it comes to particles that make a global impact, yes. But even the best filtered diesel engine will cause worse local pollution than any modern gasoline engine. It takes alot of diesel powered cars to make it a real problem, so it mostly matters where there's other air problems at the same time, like spiked tires making asphalt dust.

Here it fluctuates between 7.7$/gallon and 7$/gallon for gasoline and 7$/gallon to 6.5$/gallon for diesel.

Adjusted for consumer purchasing power, it's cheap for europe. In raw numbers we're almost as pricey as it gets.

[Duckster]

...yet so common over here in the UK:
http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Mondeo/FuelEconomyAndCO2Emissions
What gives? Ford (and every other manufacturer) sell some great cars of a reasonable size that get far better mileage than just about anything you can buy in the US. Do they really think there's no US demand for a 50 mpg diesel car? Perhaps diesel is the way forward for now.

-Andy

There could be demand here for a car like this, but $25,000 - $30,000 is a lot to pay for a weak/slow car.

[andrew98]

The mondeo is a nice one. I did however like the previous model better. A lot of those features are available on the new taurus and fusion. They will make there way to all the other models soon though. The new fiesta is a great little car. It is rated at 42 mpg that is just short of the (dreadful) prius.

The newest Fiesta is terrible. I drove through Wales in one a week ago. I like the previous, more boxy design better. It also had a bigger trunk. The older ones are great. You can even buy a diesel Fiesta and a diesel Focus here. I'm sorry, but my girlfriend's 2004 4 door Honda Civic we owned when we lived in the States got 40mpg on the highway, yet American manufacturers tout 30mpg as being fantastic in their commercials. They can make decent sized, fuel efficient cars. They just don't for some reason. I wonder what their agreement with the oil companies looks like.

-Andy

[MichaelG]

car prices for comparable cars are higher in the UK/Europe than here in the US.


There could be demand here for a car like this, but $25,000 - $30,000 is a lot to pay for a weak/slow car.

[andrew98]

There could be demand here for a car like this, but $25,000 - $30,000 is a lot to pay for a weak/slow car.

No way it would be priced like that in the US. It would be around $20,000 to $25,000. Diesels aren't weak, especially if they have a turbo on them. They also produce tons more torque than petrol engines. How fast are you actually going to drive on public roads anyway? Regardless, I've driven some wicked diesels.

-Andy

[MichaelG]

For older consumers, they remember the bad old days of diesel cars in the 70's/80's when diesel cars were loud, slow and belched black smoke. The technology has moved on a lot in Europe but Americans are unaware of that - diesel cars are now much quieter, have good performance and are clean (comparable to gas/petrol engines).

For younger consumers here in the US, they have no real experience with diesel cars - since so few have been available in the past 20-30 years.

Car makers in the US have been focused on large gas-powered vehicles for the domestic market. Now that gas prices are higher and we have a poor economy, they're trying to change their lineups.



...yet so common over here in the UK:
http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Mondeo/FuelEconomyAndCO2Emissions
What gives? Ford (and every other manufacturer) sell some great cars of a reasonable size that get far better mileage than just about anything you can buy in the US. Do they really think there's no US demand for a 50 mpg diesel car? Perhaps diesel is the way forward for now.

-Andy

[andrew98]

I have an American friend who has a new diesel VW, and it's great. I also think that all these diesel drivers in EU countries (where driving, road safety and auto racing is generally taken much more seriously than in the US) can't all be wrong.

-Andy

[Stubblefield]

I believe diesel cars are not available in NY and certain other states due to emissions issues, which is actually something I'd be concerned with. Have they really solved the problem?
I believe they have overcome that issue. CA, NY, VT and tow other states have the strictest emissions standards in the USA, and would not allow new diesels to be sold until they managed for sulfur content, among other things. The new slate of clean diesels do so, so these cars are once again available--at least in CA for sure.

[DunEdinRanger]

They have overcome that issue. CA has the strictest emissions standards in the USA, and would not allow new diesels to be sold until they managed for sulfur content, among other things. The new slate of clean diesels do so, so these cars are once again available.

I agree. I ticked off a lot of "Eco-Warriors" by suggesting they go Diesel, citing mileage, cost, durability. I was branded a neanderthal. :lol:

[bythbook]

I believe diesel cars are not available in NY and certain other states due to emissions issues, which is actually something I'd be concerned with. Have they really solved the problem?

Also, are the newer diesel cars easier to start in cold weather than the older models? That was always a big disadvantage to diesel cars in the northern U.S.

diesels are indeed available in NY - I live in a household that has a diesel - an older Jetta TDI - started all winter (occasionally had to stick a lead light under the motor)....

there's a VW dealer a few miles from here & they seem to do very well with the new TDIs. I guess they're OK....

...I still want a '69 Boss 302 Mustang, however.

[Go West Young Man]

What's the power/torque on that car like? Cars in the US need to be powerful and zippy, even if they sacrifice a bit of fuel efficiency for it.

[AdrianR]

US built diesel engines seem only to have wound up in pickup trucks and vans. And no wonder, my 1985 Chevy Suburban boasts a 6.2 liter Detroit Diesel V8 that produces only a ridiculous 135bhp - less than the straight-six 3.0 liter turbo-diesel I had in my Mercedes 300SD back in the late 1980's.

American engine technology has been way behind the Europeans for many years and I have never understood why Ford didn't bring in designs from the UK, or why GM didn't ransack their Opel design chest...

[DunEdinRanger]

US built diesel engines seem only to have wound up in pickup trucks and vans. And no wonder, my 1985 Chevy Suburban boasts a 6.2 liter Detroit Diesel V8 that produces only a ridiculous 135bhp - less than the straight-six 3.0 liter turbo-diesel I had in my Mercedes 300SD back in the late 1980's.

American engine technology has been way behind the Europeans for many years and I have never understood why Ford didn't bring in designs from the UK, or why GM didn't ransack their Opel design chest...

Instead they decide the way to more profitability is to reduce the number of dealerships, and eliminate brands like Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Plymouth, Saturn, and Mercury.

[DoctorTattoo]

What's the power/torque on that car like? Cars in the US need to be powerful and zippy, even if they sacrifice a bit of fuel efficiency for it.

if you were to opt for the larger of the engines availible for the Mondeo it comes to 163BHP and 330NM/243ftlbs of torque. This is more than enough to be powerful and zippy especially when it comes from a 4 cyl engine.

Now, not to argue with you but why do cars in the US need to be powerful and zippy?

Shawn

[galopede]

I've been driving Citroen diesels for about 20 years now here in the UK. Current car is a 2L Xsara Picasso MPV. I check the milage on each tank and if it goes below about 53 UK mpg, then it needs a service!

The diesels I've own have been far more reliable than the petrol models - no spark plugs and ignition system which causes a fair proportion of breakdowns.

Here in the UK, the annual car tax cost is dependant on CO2 emissions and my car is in one of the low bands.

It pulls well and is plenty fast enough on the motorways. Not a racer but who actually NEEDS a racer?!!

My only annoyance is that in the UK, the government noticed a few years ago that us diesel drivers were getting a fair few more miles per gallon and therefore not paying as much of the extortionate tax on fuel so they seem to have upped it on diesel as it costs a bit more than petrol. When I started driving diesels it was a fair bit cheaper!

Another thing is that the petrol car mpg seems to be getting better and better here and they will be chasing the diesels soon!

Gareth

[Sal]

What gives?

What gives is, your answer lies in the fact that your gas is twice as expensive as it is in America.

[andrew98]

I agree. I ticked off a lot of "Eco-Warriors" by suggesting they go Diesel, citing mileage, cost, durability. I was branded a neanderthal. :lol:

I'm a bit of an "eco-warrior" myself. I'm a geologist whose work history is in the contaminated land testing and cleanup sector. I also think diesel is the best option until someone creates better batteries, solar panels and other technology to cut our reliance on petroleum, coal, and natural gas. Car companies may also not want folks driving around with durable diesel engines that can easily go 200K to 300K miles before they die. That means fewer car sales, potentially, but the reduction in new cars would be a major cut in the energy used over the entire life (cradle to grave) of the average car. That's why buying used gas engine cars is overall more environmentally friendly than everyone rushing out and buying a new Prius. A lot of energy and carbon goes into making a new car. Fewer car sales could lead to an increase in price per car, but who cares, so long as your car lasts a lot longer. Buying smarter may allow people to buy less. Quality vs. quantity.


What's the power/torque on that car like? Cars in the US need to be powerful and zippy, even if they sacrifice a bit of fuel efficiency for it.

Most 3 and 5 door hatchbacks in the UK have more "zip" than most folks would know what to do with.


What gives is, your answer lies in the fact that your gas is twice as expensive as it is in America.

Hopefully that will change. One of the best things to happen for America's environment and energy independence would be $7/gallon gas. Cheap gas still doesn't change the fact that there's a large market for 50mpg cars in the US.

-Andy

[Sal]

Hopefully that will change. One of the best things to happen for America's environment and energy independence would be $7/gallon gas. Cheap gas still doesn't change the fact that there's a large market for 50mpg cars in the US.

Auto companies are in business to make money, if US consumers would buy small 50mpg cars, they would be sold here. Supply and demand.

I'll disregard your comment on $7 gas as a good thing as that is an entirely different topic of discussion.

[andrew98]

^

So you wouldn't want to own a car that gets 50mpg? It's not like Ford will have to dump a bunch on money into R&D. This is a chicken and egg type of problem, I guess. US suppliers have never offered a 50+mpg diesel that meets today's emissions standards (even though they make them), so we don't know if anyone would buy it. Americans aren't beating down the doors of GM and Ford demanding those cars because most people don't make that sort of effort.

If they offered them, folks would buy them.

-Andy

[Sal]

Andy,

We already have 50 mpg cars, they aren't being bought.

I think you are forgetting the math, lets try a real world example. Our fuel is cheap compared to Europe and diesel powered cars cost more to manufacture. They have to add turbos to make them faster and the high compression diesel engine require sturdier engine parts.

Take an average $20,000 car, that gets 30 mpg, select the diesel option for a $3000 surcharge. That gets us an increase to 40 mpg or a 33% improvement. I drive ~12,000 miles a year, so the diesel option will save me 100 gallons a year. With the low US gas prices I would not get my return on the diesel investment for 12 years and that is ignoring the fact that diesel fuel is $.40 more expensive or the added cost of aqueous urea solution that some diesels require. The cost/benefit just isn't there.

Again, if the auto companies thought they could make a profit, they would sell them here. Nothing is holding them back.

[82R100]

The general uncertainty of fuel cost and relative fuel cost (diesel vs. gasoline) make the calculations difficult. Two years ago gasoline was 50% more expensive at the pump than it is now. People's memories are short enough that $4+/gallon gasoline seems like fluke. Once upon a time, diesel sold for less than gasoline--and it may again sometime. Or it may become 20% - 30% more expensive. I tend to keep my cars for a long time; it's a gamble that I'd be a little shy of.

Powertrains have to be certified for emissions and that is a serious up-front expense for an option that people may walk away from. Until the arrival of ultra low sulfur fuel, U.S. diesel was too filthy to make good use of in high tech engines.

For the meantime, there doesn't seem to be the public appetite for diesel cars in any quantity stateside.

- Chris

[Tacheless]

Would never get a petrol car again !!!!

My last 2 cars have been Diesel, and I put my hands in my pocket a lot less, than when I had a petrol car......

Also, I have never noticed a difference in performance between petrol and diesel

Just my tuppence worth !!!

[Spacegeezer]

People keep saying that diesel doesn't sell in North America... now, completely ignoring the popularity of heavy duty diesel pickups, lets look at some examples from the only diesel passenger car you can buy right now:


From January:
"Since Volkswagen relaunched the Jetta TDI in late 2008 with an updated 50-state legal engine, diesel has been a major sales driver for the German company and CEO Stefan Jacoby expects that trend to continue in the coming years. Speaking at the Automotive News World Congress last week, Jacoby told the audience that VW expects new diesel introductions to account for a hefty 20-30 percent share of each model that comes to market.

The TDI has accounted for between 30 and 40 percent of Jetta sales since it launched and nearly all Jetta Sportwagens are diesels. Similarly, the Touareg TDI accounts for over one-third of the SUV's sales. Over the next few years, a redesigned Jetta and the new Tennessee-built mid-sized car will also have diesel options. If the luxury Phaeton returns, it too will go TDI."


Last August:

"Diesel-powered light duty vehicles remain in short supply in the United States and, until the VW Golf TDI arrives this fall, the Jetta remains the only relatively affordable example. The Jetta however, seems to powering Volkswagen sales in the U.S. right now and TDI versions of the Touareg and Audi's Q7 SUVs are also helping those models stay afloat. Just as in June, 81 percent of Jetta SportWagen sales last month were of the compression ignition variety. Although there were some sporadic reports of availability late in the month, most of the diesel wagons for the 2009 model year are sold out. Diesels also accounted for 40 percent of Jetta sedan sales and 30 percent of all Volkswagen's July sales."


Right now people in Canada and the U.S. are buying every passenger car with diesel that is being offered to them. I think there's room for GM and Ford to bring some of their European diesel over, and for Fiat to send Chrysler a few of their diesel platforms. Even if it doesn't necessarily make fiscal sense yet, I strongly suspect it will soon. It'd be nice to see the Big 3 ahead of a trend on this. AND! If they're selling lots of smaller sedans and wagons/hatchbacks making over 50 mpg, they can still afford to produce a few ridiculous 10 mpg musclecars without ruining their CAFE fleet rating.




Auto companies are in business to make money, if US consumers would buy small 50mpg cars, they would be sold here. Supply and demand.


I'd say it's more a question of the US auto companies figuring out how to sell economy cars without relying on ten to twenty-thousand dollar markups on pickup trucks to subsidize their business. Ford is starting to get there, maybe GM and Chrysler will catch up soon. Plenty of small cars are bought and sold in the US, it's just that the Big 3 doesn't know how to profit on them and has in general ignored the segment.

[Sal]

Spacegeezer, I looked it up, a TDI is $22,830 a regular Jetta is $17,735. How many years do you think you will have to drive it to recoup the $5095? With my local prices of $2.49 for gas and $2.71 for diesel and driving 12,000 miles a year it would be 16.54 years. Just do the math, they are a waste of money. Also, it's not just the US manufactures not selling 50 mpg cars here. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, PSA, Hyundai, Suzuki, Fiat, Renault, Daimler, BMW, Kia, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Tata, Cherry, Volvo, Saab, Proton, ect don't do it either. There is a reason why.

[andrew98]

Spacegeezer, I looked it up, a TDI is $22,830 a regular Jetta is $17,735. How many years do you think you will have to drive it to recoup the $5095? With my local prices of $2.49 for gas and $2.71 for diesel and driving 12,000 miles a year it would be 16.54 years. Just do the math, they are a waste of money. Also, it's not just the US manufactures not selling 50 mpg cars here. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, PSA, Hyundai, Suzuki, Fiat, Renault, Daimler, BMW, Kia, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Tata, Cherry, Volvo, Saab, Proton, ect don't do it either. There is a reason why.

You're assuming fuel prices will stay the same as they are today over the 16.54 years you noted. They won't. Also, I drove a used 1992 pickup until last year, and it's still running around in central Ohio. I'd be more than happy to pay a $5000 premium for a diesel that I planned to keep for about 20 years. I don't buy new cars, however.

If you buy a used, 3 year old diesel VW TDI 4 door hatchback with something like 36K miles on it, it'll cost you less than $20K (retail). You could find one for less, I'm sure. I got that info from kbb.com.

-Andy

[tg16]

Especially big block V8s with 4-barrel carbs!

Or dual 4 barrells or Holley 3 barrells.

[RJSquirell]

Or dual 4 barrells or Holley 3 barrells.

440 w/a sixpack

[Sal]

You're assuming fuel prices will stay the same as they are today over the 16.54 years you noted. They won't. Also, I drove a used 1992 pickup until last year, and it's still running around in central Ohio. I'd be more than happy to pay a $5000 premium for a diesel that I planned to keep for about 20 years. I don't buy new cars, however.

If you buy a used, 3 year old diesel VW TDI 4 door hatchback with something like 36K miles on it, it'll cost you less than $20K (retail). You could find one for less, I'm sure. I got that info from kbb.com.

-Andy


Thats good that you own your vehicle for so long, but you are the exception not the rule. I did a quick look and according to Auto News the average length of new car ownership is 4.69 years. So that means gas prices would have to get extremely out of whack for new diesel car purchases to not be a waste of money. Also, you are assuming the gas/diesel price disparity will remain static. Your example of the used TDI doesn't offer relevance to the argument for new car sales.

Sorry for the lame response time, I somehow missed that this thread had been responded to multiple times.

[Spacegeezer]

I still think the most important point is that something like 30-40 percent of VW's sales are now diesels, EVEN THOUGH it doesn't make any monetary sense. SUVs worked like that, too. Consumers aren't logical. The important point is that the market currently exists.