Suggestions for first firearm purchase

[DizzyArnaz]

I'm thinking about buying my first firearm. Didn't grow up in a home that had firearms, but through conversations with colleagues and friends that are gun-owners, I think I might as well use my constitutional 2nd amendment right to protect myself and my home. I live in a somewhat questionable neighborhood, but that's not the primary reason for my thoughts about buying and learning to use a firearm.

Can anyone give a suggestion of a first firearm for someone who's never shot a gun outside of a BB gun, for the purposes of home defense.

I live Ohio, and as far as I know we have concealed carry laws. If anyone could give me some advice and information as far as that goes I'd appreciate it as well.

[danek]

The best home defense weapon that I can think of is a pump-action shotgun. 1) While it's pretty easy to miss with a single bullet, a shotgun can unleash a couple dozen pellets at once. 2) The unmistakeable sound of racking that pump slide whould be enough to deter any intruder; if they're still in the house after you pump that shotgun, you know you're going to have to shoot them for sure....

edit: Metatron beat me to the same conclusion.

[Gambrinus]

I'll have to second the shotgun route. One of my professors in college taught a firearms class at night. He said you are more likely to deter a theif by shucking the slide on a shotgun and cussing like a sailor than trying to use a handgun. Plus you don't have to be a crack shot if you have to use one.

[DizzyArnaz]

Thanks for the replies gents. Unfortunately, a dog is out of the question, as I'm allergic...compounded by the fact that I'm already concealing two cats in an apartment that has a no pets policy (maintenance guys don't care so no worries on getting busted for that so long as I keep the place clean).

I've heard the arguments for a shotgun before and have considered that. Eventually I'd like to be a responsible gun-owner and have a CCW as well. For the sake of discussion, suggest good first handgun purchases as well.

[catfish308]

I agree with the shotgun suggestion for home defense. However, if you want the gun to double as a conceal carry gun I suggest a Smith & Wesson J frame in .38 special.

Ohio requires a permit to conceal carry. Go here (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/ohio-ccw-state-laws.php)for some information about conceal carry laws. I believe Ohio is also an open carry state. But in order to open carry in a car you have to have a concealed carry permit, which makes no sense to me.

Please note, I live in Florida so I don't know Ohio laws. The above is what I found with some google searching. Please look at Ohio law so you are properly informed.

[stobes21]

I think .22 handguns and rifles are the ideal guns to learn to shoot on. They certainly aren't great for home defense, but by and large they are inexpensive to purchase and shoot, recoil is minimal, and they will help you learn the fundamentals of shooting. From there you will find it a lot easier to move to centerfire handguns and rifles.

I'd also suggest trying a basic class at a local gun range, particularly one of the NRA Fundamentals classes. They'll teach you gun safety, marksmanship fundamentals, and are generally just a good place to get acclimated to handling firearms.

[DizzyArnaz]

I'll ask around to learn more about Ohio's firearm laws, but that's news to me and somewhat surprising if OH is an open carry state.

Going to contact an old colleague and see if he'd like to go shooting with me. He has a much more expensive hobby than I do...firearms!

[Edcculus]

Don't really know too much about guns, but if its merely home defense, I vote shotgun. Any theif will think twice when they hear it cock, esp a pump action. You also don't have to be the best shot in the world (if it even comes to that). They are pretty fun at the range too if you get clay pigeons and a launcher.

[DizzyArnaz]

Also, just a quick thought about closed vs. open carry. Why would people choose to open carry when closed carry leaves a certain element of surprise? I thought that was the primary advantage of closed carry, that the "bad guys" don't know who is carrying and who isn't.

Not trying to derail my own thread, just simply trying to learn more about the subject.

Also also, I can confirm that through Eric's link, Ohio is an open carry state.

[catfish308]

The whole open carry vs conceal carry is widely debated among internet forums. From what I gather, open carry is more of a "I have the right" kind of thing. I conceal carry everyday but if open carry was legal I would do that as well. Not as often, but I would. Some say it looks bad, but I believe that if you don't use your rights, you lose them. Few people know that they can open carry in California as long as the gun isn't loaded.

[DizzyArnaz]

The whole open carry vs conceal carry is widely debated among internet forums. From what I gather, open carry is more of a "I have the right" kind of thing. I conceal carry everyday but if open carry was legal I would do that as well. Not as often, but I would. Some say it looks bad, but I believe that if you don't use your rights, you lose them. Few people know that they can open carry in California as long as the gun isn't loaded.

That's kind of my thinking, that open carry is a more an issue of displaying your rights on your sleeve, and less about defending yourself.

That seems absolutely pointless to open carry if it's not loaded! :lol: Is it also legal to closed carry in CA if it's loaded?

[moonshine44]

I think .22 handguns and rifles are the ideal guns to learn to shoot on. They certainly aren't great for home defense, but by and large they are inexpensive to purchase and shoot, recoil is minimal, and they will help you learn the fundamentals of shooting. From there you will find it a lot easier to move to centerfire handguns and rifles.

I'd also suggest trying a basic class at a local gun range, particularly one of the NRA Fundamentals classes. They'll teach you gun safety, marksmanship fundamentals, and are generally just a good place to get acclimated to handling firearms.

++++1111 to all of the above. Contact a local range, if there is one, regarding basic firearms classes, and consider a .22 for a first gun. Then, once you're comfortable with the basics of handling a firearm, you can move to something bigger.

I don't know what you're budget is, but a shotgun for home defense, and a handgun of some sort down the road as a carry gun, are good suggestions as well.

[blary54]

Mossburg 500 pump action shotgun. Super durable that armed forces use it and its around $200.00.

[catfish308]

That's kind of my thinking, that open carry is a more an issue of displaying your rights on your sleeve, and less about defending yourself.

That seems absolutely pointless to open carry if it's not loaded! :lol: Is it also legal to closed carry in CA if it's loaded?

Unfortunately any conceal carry will get you in serious trouble unless you have a permit, which is really hard to get. I just found out too that a bill was passed and awaiting a signature to make it illegal to open carry in public :mad3:

[DizzyArnaz]

Unfortunately any conceal carry will get you in serious trouble unless you have a permit, which is really hard to get.

Which is why I would want to go through the proper channels to get a CCW if I chose to do so. My record is clean sans parking and speeding tickets, and I'd like to keep it that way.

[danek]

Since you've not very familiar with firearms, I would STRONGLY suggest that you familiarize yourself and become very proficeint on lots of different kinds of firearms before you even consider carrying.

Kind of like the kid who's never driven a car before, but has dreams of driving Formula I or Tractor-Trailers, my suggestion would be to learn to drive first, and years down the road consider moving into those more technical areas.

For a starter firearm, a .22 is a great place to start; it's cheap to buy,cheap to shoot, and is very unintimidating to learn on.

If you also want something that can double with home protection, than I suggest a .38/.357 double-action revolver. Revolvers don't have safeties, magazine releases, sliding actions to worry about; just keep squeezing the trigger until it quits going, "bang".

[Jim]

Go to this page (http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx) and find a local NRA sponsored class.

You will be able to get a feel for various self defense and carry options as well as an overview of local requirements.

This is a serious step and should be approached with a well trained and experienced guide.

A NRA membership will get you a lot of info and discounts to gear and programs.

Good luck!

[citizensoldierny]

The answer for your desire to conceal carry and meet everyones recommendations to get a shotgun.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT_Show_2002/Day3/Dsc00545.jpg

[DizzyArnaz]

Since you've not very familiar with firearms, I would STRONGLY suggest that you familiarize yourself and become very proficeint on lots of different kinds of firearms before you even consider carrying.

I'm definitely planning on doing this. A former colleague of mine was an avid gun collector...so much so that he and his wife do regular sweep drills of their domicile. I've already sent a message to him with a request to go shooting sometime soon.

[catfish308]

I just love Jeff Quinn's beard. He has some decent gun reviews, though I've never read a negative one...He's also a lefty :thumbup:


The answer for your desire to conceal carry and meet everyones recommendations to get a shotgun.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT_Show_2002/Day3/Dsc00545.jpg

[citizensoldierny]

Dizzy,
BTW I learned to shoot on a Norinco clone of a Colt 1911a1 in .45. Where there's a will there isl a way I guess , with this in mind I say get what you want. If you want a revolver get a revolver, if you want an auto get an auto. I never took lessons but became a decent shot by following the basics and lots of practice. If you want to start on the economical side of things I have owned more than a few Taurus in both Auto and revolver and have always been pleased with their product.

[Inked Daddy]

Mossburg 500 pump action shotgun. Super durable that armed forces use it and its around $200.00.

This was my recommendation as well. If you must have a pistol then I would get .357 revolver. You can practice with .38 shells which are cheaper. Since you are new to shooting I would learn with revolvers first.

[DizzyArnaz]

Called most of the shooting ranges around town tonight. They're offering CCW classes anywhere from $150-$300 for anywhere from 3 night classes to 1 day 1-on-1 instruction.

I got a lot of different vibes from the shops and ranges I called...the first I called was the most professional and thorough with information, willing to answer any questions I had. The last made me ask all the questions and offered almost no information whatsoever besides the price of the course.

Either way, I'm definitely going to get some practice shooting first before I decide to buy a weapon or take a CCW class. And screw spending $75 for a one-on-one instruction that doesn't give me anything but a deeper hole in my pocket :lol:

[catfish308]

Down here, most CCW only go over laws with little firearms handling. We are required to show safe handling by firing off a few rounds at a range. Some states require a percentage of hits on the target.

Someone mentioned the NRA course. That's good for firearms handling but I don't know if it goes over laws. Be sure you take a course that meets your needs. You mentioned having a friend that knows about guns. It may be best to have some one on one with him to show you safe handling and then take a ccw course that talks about laws. I believe that is what you are leaning towards, but wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

[DizzyArnaz]

I checked out the NRA courses too, and the pistol training course descriptions said they meet Ohio's CCW prerequisites. Either way, I need to just go shooting with a friend that has a brain I can pick about the subject and discuss it further.

[catfish308]

Sounds like you have things well under control. Firearms are another addiction just like shaving, just a little more expensive per purchase :biggrin1: I have 10 and counting.

[eightysixCJ]

Definitely take a basic gun safety class and a CCW/handgun self defence class if your focus now is on home protection. In addtion to an intro and safe handling practice the CCW classes ususally cover the legal considerations and liability implications to pulling the trigger. Good stuff to know beforehand.

Hook up with a good range, one that hosts matches. Most matches are open to all regardless of skill level and will give you the opportunity to learn and shoot a lot. The more you shoot the more confident and safe you'll be when it counts.

As far as your first question, as pointed out but the others, a shotgun is a great choice. Wall/floor/ceiling penetration is a real consideration. Also, for your first gun I'd think about one you can shoot trap and sporting clays with. Again the more you shoot...

For a handgun I'd start with a decent .22 with a 5" barrel. You can develop you skills with cheap ammo while learning what you really like at the range.

Tom

[DizzyArnaz]

Bob, would you mind indulging me on what "matches" are?

[Jim]

Bob, would you mind indulging me on what "matches" are?


Matches are shooting competitions from "who buys the drinks" to the Olympics and everything in between.

[Deltaboy]

Get a good 22 rimfire pistol and learn to shoot properly!:thumbup1:

[ctr]

Go to this page (http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx) and find a local NRA sponsored class.

You will be able to get a feel for various self defense and carry options as well as an overview of local requirements.

This is a serious step and should be approached with a well trained and experienced guide.

A NRA membership will get you a lot of info and discounts to gear and programs.

Good luck!

Jim's advice is the best by far. Start with the NRA class. You will get to actually look at and touch various handguns. You will also learn a good deal about gun safety, and about your personal safety, as well as developing situational awareness. The added benefits to the NRA classes is that they will cover the legal aspects of self defense - which are quite different than popular notions kicked around the internet. The class typically meets the classroom requirements for many states.

Once you have this fundamental knowledge in hand, going to a range and trying out a number of options will lead you down a path to satisfaction.

[DavyRay]

A good can of Raid is a start. No license required.:glare:

[DizzyArnaz]

I think you switched threads Davy! :lol:

[RHVette]

A couple of suggestions and thoughts. First of all, while I love the J frame, I wouldn't recommend it as a first handgun. Too small and snappy. Personally, I recommend for a first defense-ready (i.e. centerfire, 9mm Luger minimum) any of the well known names. They're well known for a reason. A used Glock, SIG, H&K, etc, etc, won't steer you wrong and the prices can be pretty reasonable. If you're going the revolver route, stick with Smith & Wesson or Ruger. Dan Wesson and Colt are great guns, but you won't find one affordable.

Personally, I think the point of open carry is speedier presentation. With some clothes, the only methods of concealed carry can be slow or cumbersome. Open carry is usually pretty painless to draw.

One last thought. Good on you for asking a friend to help teach you. Never stop learning. I will say, though, when I teach new shooter's, I don't let them touch a gun until they can explain to me the Four Rules of Gun Safety. They aren't hard to learn, and it's impossible to accidentally hurt somebody with 99.999% of firearms if you follow them.

[denim]

While the NRA classes are a good idea, do not join NRA. They treat their membership as a cash cow and compromise the 2nd Amendment at many turns (http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd02/nugent-open-letter.htm). Find your local state gun group instead.

I was an NRA member for years. I still get "scare" calls telling me about how the government or the gun grabbers are trying to abridge my rights.

[Krackin]

Just throwing my $0.02 in. I agree with most of what has been posted.

Shotgun is best for home defense. I was in the navy for 6 years, and I spent some time on my ships boarding team. That means I was trained to go onto other ships...who often did not want us there...while fully armed and ready for conflict. When the adrenaline gets pumping and you know that there is somebody around that might be trying to kill you, it is difficult to hold a pistol steady. A shotgun means that it doesn't matter as much if you can hold it steady while terrified.

As for a concealed handgun, you should check out your local range. Many will let you demo guns so you can find what you want. It might be a good idea to do some research on calibers before you go so you have a better idea of what you are looking for. A 9mm is popular, ammo is cheap, but has little stopping power. A .45 has a ton of stopping power, but ammo is expensive and the gun will likely be harder to shoot. I like the guns in between the two. Try them out to see what you like.

[eightysixCJ]

Bob, would you mind indulging me on what "matches" are?

There are a variety of shooting competitions. Each individual "game" or competition is a match. There are a few organizations that set the rules/requirements for the type of competition. I regularly participate in what is called "Conventional Pistol" or Bullseye matches. These are single hand, handgun competitions shot in strings of 10 shots at targets 50 and 25 yard and in 10 minute, 20 second, and 10 second periods. Bullseye matches range from 90 to 270 rounds. There are matches for any type of firearm from target to practical shooting senariarios.

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/index.asp
http://www.ipsc.org/
http://www.idpa.com/

Tom

[Agent8426]

Dizzy:

I am a fellow Ohio resident. Also like you I did not grow up around firearms. As an adult I moved to the Western United States where I was introduced to firearms and firearm culture.

In my opinion, if you are looking only for home protection, the best defense is not a firearm, but good locks, lighting, and common sense. However, if you have a per se interest in firearms and/or an interest in augmenting your home security then the following are my suggestions.

-The general consensus is that the shotgun, usually 12 gauge, is the best home defense firearm. I personally do not disagree, but I think its status as the end all home defense weapon is debateable. The 12 gauge (esp in magnum) is a serious round with a lot of kick and noise. It can be hard to handle. Secondly, unless you go through the expense and effort of getting a short barrel shot gun, you're going to have a rather large firearm. Large arms are heavy and can be difficult to manuver indoors. (the shotgun is a hunting gun, designed over at least a hundred years to be used outside).

-Alternatives would be any of the "Personal Defense Weapons" available to civilians. They are compact, light, short, and have high capacity magazines. You can "google" "Personal Defense Weapon" for more information. If shotguns were the best firearm for close indoor use, then every SWAT team would only use shotguns, but they don't.

-I'm not saying you shouldn't get a shotgun but also look at other small caliber weapons. Shoot them all then make a decision.

-as a note, a firearm should only be drawn/pointed when you reasonably believe deadly force is necessary. The whole "sound of racking" is b.s. Don't get it out, let alone "rack" it unless you are going to fire. Once a gun is drawn you are way past of discouraging an intruder. They're not for frightening, they're for killing.

-You live in an appartment. This presents two issues for me. 1) Distance. If you have to use deadly force you will be at close range. At very close range, IMO, you can hit anything with anything even when scared. 2) Over Penitration. You don't want to kill your neighbors. Regardless of the gun you choose look into frangable rounds or other rounds designed for indoor use.

-In Ohio you can wear your gun openly. However, this is usually only done by individuals trying to make a political statement--you may also get arrested for any number of offenses i.e. mayham, disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct.

[catfish308]

Dizzy:


In my opinion, if you are looking only for home protection, the best defense is not a firearm, but good locks, lighting, and common sense. However, if you have a per se interest in firearms and/or an interest in augmenting your home security then the following are my suggestions.

-The general consensus is that the shotgun, usually 12 gauge, is the best home defense firearm. I personally do not disagree, but I think its status as the end all home defense weapon is debateable. The 12 gauge (esp in magnum) is a serious round with a lot of kick and noise. It can be hard to handle. Secondly, unless you go through the expense and effort of getting a short barrel shot gun, you going to have a rather large firearm. Large arms are heavy, and can be difficult to manuver indoors. (the shotgun is a hunting gun).



I agree that locks and lighting are the first steps to securing your home but I want something to protect myself with, if someone gets inside. I also carry during the day in my home or if I'm working outside at my house. It's sad that I feel I need to, but I'm not taking the chance.

I'm also confused about the shotgun comment. Not all shotguns are long, you can have a shotgun with an 18" barrel without going though ATF for permits. That is plenty short enough for maneuvering in a house. 2 3/4" buckshot has mild recoil and plenty of power for self defense. No need for magnum loads. A 20 gauge would be fine too.

Please note that I don't live in a bad neighborhood, so that's not why I feel I need to carry.

[joebob2586]

The class is a must, and a shotgun is great for home defense however as far as a hand gun is concerned you need to decide the cal that you want then move onto brand. If you want to go the semi-auto route then I would reccomend that you stay away from .38, and 9mm. 9mm is a fast round however the knock down power isn't that of a higher cal meaning that you need to be more accurate. I would consider a .40 as it is right between a 9 and a .45. I have many pistols and a .40 is by far my favorite cal to shoot. Fast and powerful. Then there are brands everyone has their own preference but it all comes down to customization and what fits in your hand. Everyone raves about Glocks but they are uncomfortable for me to hold. The best advice is to go to a gun shop and hold different brands...i.e. glocks, HK, S&W, Sig Sauer, Springfiled armory to name a few. For home defense you can look into a compact or sub compact a good barrel lenght for at home an concealed is 3 1/2 to 4in as you will still have accuracy. My personal gun of choice is a HK they just feel good in my hands and are fully customizable. Feel free to shoot a PM if youd like I could rant for days about guns as it is my other addiction.

[Agent8426]

Mr. Catfish308:

Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I am always interested in input from persons who know what they are talking about, like yourself.

To address your confusion: I intended my post to be a foil against the consensus that the shotgun is the best home defense firearm available. It has many positive attributes (including price), and it is not a mistake to choose a shotgun for home protection.

The comments I made were intended as alternate views/other considerations for the lay person looking to purchase the one and only home protection firearm for an appartment.

I fully agree with you that not all shotguns are large and that the load can be manageable. However, in my limited experience, when the home defense shotgun is discussed it is typically the 12 gauge Mossberg 500 or the Remington 870. I agree with you that the 12 gauge is not necessary for home defense, that's usually where the conversation goes. Also, I personally find an 18 inch barrel married to the factory fixed stock to be a little large for the average 600 square foot Ohio appartment.

You make very valid points, and I am not arguing--just pointing out alternatives.

Also, I wanted to present a strong counter point to the sentiment that the "sound" of the shotgun is a selling point.

If you would like to discuss this matter further please PM me. I welcome any and all input.

[Uncle Erik]

The safety class and shotgun are great options.

If you want a handgun, I'd recommend a 9mm. If you go onto gun boards, you'll see endless arguments as to whether 9mm or .45 is the better round. There are piles of arguments on either side.

Me? I decided to buy both. :smile:

I'm reasonably sure that I would not want to be shot with a 9mm instead of a .45. I think a lot of people are with me on that.

There are three clear advantages to 9mm. One, a 9mm holds more rounds. There are arguments about the average number of shots fired but having 15-18 rounds on hand is awfully nice at the range. You can really concentrate on shooting instead of stuffing more rounds into a cartridge. Second, 9mm costs less. No argument on that; you
can spend extra time practicing. Third, most 9mm guns are lighter and smaller than a .45, making them ideal for concealed carry.

If you can put in a lot more range time with a 9mm, then you'll be better prepared and more accurate. After all, a 9mm round that hits its target has 100% more stopping power than a .45 that misses.

[BlakeW5]

Like said, shotguns are great home defense weapons.

As for handguns, we can give suggestions all day but it all comes down to personal preference. Take suggestions, sure, but go to your local gun store and hold all the pistols you can. Also, go to a range and shoot as many different models and calibers as you can. What feels right for one person can be completely awkward for another. For instance there are several glock fans out there but I can't personally stand them. They're great guns they just didn't feel right. I naturally want to aim high with them and I'm far from accurate with them. I found my fit with a Springfield XD 4" barrel, 9mm. The grip angle felt more natural, my aim was markedly better, and the 9mm had the ammo capacity I wanted (16+1).

As for caliber, I personally don't believe in the "knock-down power" argument so many people fall back on. Handguns by nature lack it and the one-shot, instant kill is mainly a myth. Any mainstream caliber (.357, 9mm, .40, .44, .45) will do the job with good quality ammo. The biggest thing is choosing a caliber you can afford to shoot and shoot often. The best bullet in the world is useless unless it hits and ammo is far from cheap. I went for 9mm as it's notably cheaper, has a wide variety of quality ammo, ammo can generally be found anywhere, recoil is controllable, it's faster than .45, and offers adequate penetration (which can be a problem indoors).

Finally, don't cheap out. There are several cheap handguns out there of dubious craftsmanship. Your life may depend on the gun some day (unlikely but possible) so go with a quality brand and a model with a reputation for reliability.

[Aaron W.]

I'm not sure if it was posted but oh has a concealed carry. If you go to your local court house or county building they should have a book regarding what you need. I got mine at our county building where i live. The sheriff office is where you register when your classes are done you could check there for a book or info. I'm about 100 percent sure we don't have open carry,If we do I haven't heard of it. My folks are ccw I'm looking to get mine soon. .40 caliber is a good round for a pistol. I've read the recoil can be tough when shooting a compact pistol depends on the round as well. 9 millimeter will kill someone 5 feet away as good as a .45 will wont knock them back like a .45 will but if your using cor bon you wont have the hard recoil of the .45 and that might be an advantage. If your getting the shotgun remember 00 buck is big shot wich means less in the shell,better be close to them when you pull the trigger. Number 6 shot is smaller in diameter and therefor more in the shell,and more going into the criminal. Very devastating. I have a spring field xd .45 full size great shooter big for concealed. Good luck. Take some safety courses and learn about your weapon. If you have kids teach them about the weapon and show them what it can do. Let them know its not a toy. Curiosity killed the cat and I've seen it kill some kids to. Don't hide it from them educate them,imo.

[catfish308]

Mr. Catfish308:

Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I am always interested in input from persons who know what they are talking about, like yourself.





Thanks for the follow up. It's nice to see civil conversations on a board for once. Few forums are like B&B. I've seen way too many posts on gun boards that go to the deep end. I also agree about the sound of a shotgun. People shouldn't count on that to be a reason to buy one or protect themselves. I could talk firearms all day/night. It was my first addiction, then came shaving.

[DavyRay]

My only other comment here, is that if you do use a shotgun for self-defense, indoors, the only reasonable ammunition to use is birdshot. There is no spread of shot at the distances indoors (22 ft. max). The full force of the shot is available for an intruder. The chance of punching birdshot through walls is slight.

[BlakeW5]

There are three clear advantages to 9mm. One, a 9mm holds more rounds. There are arguments about the average number of shots fired but having 15-18 rounds on hand is awfully nice at the range.

Good point, something I forgot to mention.

Studies have been done that have shown even cops (highly trained) landed fewer than 50% of their shots in gun fights. That extra capacity is nice as you have the extra rounds to fall back on.

Secondly, let's assume you get in a bad situation where the other guy starts to fire back. Do you want to be the guy that possibly has to reload first?

[joebob2586]

I forgot to add in my previous post they make a bullet called a glazier safety round it is basically a hollow point filled with pellets with a rubber ball on the end. Nick named the one hitter quitter, once the bullet impacts the body the shot spreads down and makes for a powerfull knockdown, the plus is that it wont penetrate walls so you dont need to worry about a bad shot. I personally keep a clip fully loaded with these rounds for at home. They are pricey but odds are you will never shoot them. so its worth it for one clip IMHO

[BlakeW5]

I forgot to add in my previous post they make a bullet called a glazier safety round it is basically a hollow point filled with pellets with a rubber ball on the end. Nick named the one hitter quitter, once the bullet impacts the body the shot spreads down and makes for a powerfull knockdown, the plus is that it wont penetrate walls so you dont need to worry about a bad shot. I personally keep a clip fully loaded with these rounds for at home. They are pricey but odds are you will never shoot them. so its worth it for one clip IMHO

Every test I've seen of the glazier round has shown it's worthless, great for a flesh-wound, horrible for killing. If you're looking for a non-lethal round sure it's a winner, but if you're trying to avoid killing people you shouldn't be pointing guns at them in the first place.

IMO the only time you should ever point a gun at someone, let alone pull the trigger, is when you intend to kill them and when the kill is justified. There are plenty of other options for incapacitation, a gun isn't one of them.

[Jazscam]

Hey,

Don't discount handguns for home defence. Shot guns, while easy use to point and fire, are unwieldily and cause huge amounts of collateral damage.

http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm

This article is very good with regards to hand gun ammo. Besides skill, correct ammo is probably a more important factor in "stopping power" than the actual quality of the weapon itself.

[joebob2586]

They make two different glaziers, each one is for a different thickness of layers yes a bullet proof vest will stop it however they have knock down power and they wont penetrate walls. I have shot them and they pack quite a kick the main bullet still penetrates, you may not die from the impact of one bullet however the bleed out factor is there. And odds are you wont die from a single bullet impact unelss it hits a vital organ. I guarantee if you put a glazier or any bullet into someones head they will die, and if you hit them in the leg they wont. I am a firm fan of the double tap and it gives me a little piece of mind knowing that I have my son in his bedroom and if a bullet rips through an intruder it wont stray and hit him, also the glazier won't ricochet. I am a great shot however waking up in the middle of a night from a dead sleep and having to pull the trigger in the dark isnt the idea situation to set you up for a perfect shot. It is a home defense round, not a CCW round. For any other round black talon type rounds do more damage. Hornady TAP is a great round along with Federal.

[joebob2586]

Here is a little info from a law enforcement home defense website"

"The point is not to wound or kill the adversary: the point is to stop him in his tracks and make him cease attacking you. "Stopping power" (sometimes called "knock-down power") refers to a particular bullet's ability to incapacitate an attacker - the greater that ability, the less chance that your attacker will be able to continue shooting, stabbing, or beating you after you have shot him.

Handguns are not death-rays; despite what you see in the movies, the vast majority of people shot with handguns survive (over 80%). Hollowpoint ammunition is NOT more lethal than ball (full metal jacket) ammunition. You may have seen media hype about "killer dum-dum bullets" but this is nonsense. Hollowpoint bullets usually expand and stop in the human body, and thus the attacker absorbs much more of the bullet's kinetic energy than if the bullet had merely zipped through him and left two small holes. Hollowpoint ammunition is also safer for all parties concerned."

[joebob2586]

If you have a chance to read this it gives you a lot of info http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[Teh Chooch]

My only other comment here, is that if you do use a shotgun for self-defense, indoors, the only reasonable ammunition to use is birdshot. There is no spread of shot at the distances indoors (22 ft. max). The full force of the shot is available for an intruder. The chance of punching birdshot through walls is slight.

I'm going to have to disagree with that one DavyRay.

Birdshot has an extremely high probability to end up just pissing off the intruder you just shot. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to volunteer to stand in front of it, but it just does not have the penetration needed to be considered a solid self defense round.

Shotguns have to be aimed, regardless of what is shown in movies. For a self defense round in a shotgun, I'm going to have to lean towards 0, 00 or 000 buck or slugs. Even the spread on birdshot, at 10 yards (which is pretty much the maximum distance you'll see in a home invasion) is MAYBE 10" in a super choked shotgun designed for home defense. My point is that it's not a massive wall of lead that can't possibly miss. (Edit: Just re-read the post DavyRay, I see that you understand the shotgun must be aimed :blush: I do hear that a lot from novice shooters that believe a shotgun does indeed produce a no-miss wall of lead)

Your advantage with a shotgun for self defense is the stopping power, there's a lot of energy being carried in the dense pellets or slugs. Bird-shot doesn't have that. I'll see if I can dig up one of the many articles about the misconceptions of bird shot as a self defense round.

The only upside is the over penetration you mentioned. that's true, but that strength is bird shots greatest weakness.

:001_smile

[catfish308]

Me personally, I wouldn't use birdshot for self defense, it doesn't have the penetration to stop someone.

I pulled the following text from The Box O Truth.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"\

Update:
I received a note from a police officer that asked me not to mention names or locations about this true event.

A police officer was involved in some shotgun training, where they used #6 birdshot in the training due to lower cost. After the training session, he forgot to remove the birdshot and replace it with 00 Buckshot, the normal carry load.

That night, while on patrol, he confronted a couple of burglars and was in a shootout with them. He shot both of them with his shotgun, but forgot that he had it loaded with birdshot.

They killed the officer and escaped.

Never use birdshot against goblins. Use plated 00 Buckshot.

[DanOK]

As you can see firearms are like razors everyone has a favorite. I grew up around guns all my life and according to SWMBO I have way to many. Of course, I have to many razors, to many duck decoys, to many tools, and to many damn kids.

I also have a concealed carry permit and can only suggest what I consider to be my main defense weapons.

1. Remington 870 with 2 3/4" 00Buck
2. Smith & Wesson Model 10 38 Police Special with Horady 125 XTP
3. Walther PPS 9mm with Speer 124 P+

As others have suggested attend a few classes and find a gun range that will allow you to rent various models to see what is a good fit for your hand. If you choose a handgun I cannot over stress the importance of practice, practice, and more practice.

[ctr]

While the NRA classes are a good idea, do not join NRA. They treat their membership as a cash cow and compromise the 2nd Amendment at many turns (http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd02/nugent-open-letter.htm). Find your local state gun group instead.

I was an NRA member for years. I still get "scare" calls telling me about how the government or the gun grabbers are trying to abridge my rights.

I don't wish to get too far off topic, but to be fair to folks reading the thread I will offer a counter opinion.

The NRA is an exceptional organization that offers educational programs for kids, sponsors training for police, offers insurance programs, and many other services. As you mentioned, the NRA does indeed heavily solicit funding from its members to further promote gun owner rights. Those solicitations are easily stopped by calling member services and requesting removal from them.

With any organization it is possible to take issue with some of their positions or actions. But taken as a whole, the NRA is an exceptional organization that does much to ensure the continued freedoms enjoyed under the 2nd Ammendment.

[DavyRay]

I'm going to have to disagree with that one DavyRay.

Birdshot has an extremely high probability to end up just pissing off the intruder you just shot. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to volunteer to stand in front of it, but it just does not have the penetration needed to be considered a solid self defense round.

Shotguns have to be aimed, regardless of what is shown in movies. For a self defense round in a shotgun, I'm going to have to lean towards 0, 00 or 000 buck or slugs. Even the spread on birdshot, at 10 yards (which is pretty much the maximum distance you'll see in a home invasion) is MAYBE 10" in a super choked shotgun designed for home defense. My point is that it's not a massive wall of lead that can't possibly miss. (Edit: Just re-read the post DavyRay, I see that you understand the shotgun must be aimed :blush: I do hear that a lot from novice shooters that believe a shotgun does indeed produce a no-miss wall of lead)

Your advantage with a shotgun for self defense is the stopping power, there's a lot of energy being carried in the dense pellets or slugs. Bird-shot doesn't have that. I'll see if I can dig up one of the many articles about the misconceptions of bird shot as a self defense round.

The only upside is the over penetration you mentioned. that's true, but that strength is bird shots greatest weakness.

:001_smile

I read this and several follow-up posts. You have a valid point. There is tremendous variation in response to light loads, depending on the distance, shootee's clothing, and shootee's level of training (or intoxication). You can blow a hole in a NYC phone book with a 45 caliber BLANK at short distances. There is a big difference between the low-mass load at 10 feet versus 30 feet. I have read parts of the Hatch report (for you gun fans out there), so do know that there is a minimum amount of kinetic energy and mass needed to reliably stop a trained or very wired opponent.

(I know shootee is not a word. I just like it.)

[ackvil]

Go to this page (http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx) and find a local NRA sponsored class.

You will be able to get a feel for various self defense and carry options as well as an overview of local requirements.

This is a serious step and should be approached with a well trained and experienced guide.

A NRA membership will get you a lot of info and discounts to gear and programs.

Good luck!

Sound advice.

I am a big Glock fan and I would recommend as a first gun a G17 or G19 both of which are 9 mm pistols. They are easy to care for and not as expensive as others. I started with a G19 and went on from there.

[Mazeman]

If this is your first gun, you're gonna want to shoot it. A lot. Even though it may be for home defense, it's fun (and also important) to go to the range and get proficient with it.

That said, if you choose a shot gun, make sure you're also interested in taking up trap/skeet or hunting, Something you'll enjoy doing with it. You don't want to have this gun just laying around. Shooting a 12 gauge at paper targets is no fun.

If not a 12 gauge, I'd get a .22LR revolver or rifle. You'll have fun target shooting/ plinking fairly cheaply, while you learn the basics And I'm not in the crowd that poo-poos a .22 for home defense; although not the best, it's perfectly acceptable.

Also, remember, this will probably NOT be your last gun. That fact may take the pressure off some of this decision. On most gun boards (instead of shaving boards) you see threads like "What are the five must-have guns".:001_smile

[Inked Daddy]

This would probably be extremely effective... just mount it on the roof of your home.

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/Gau8a_a.jpg

[Gravy]

My 2cents,

If you are going to join the ranks of "responsible gun owners", you need to know all of the laws and regulations for your state. They can vary and ignorance of the laws is not an excuse.
Definitely take a class if you can. The NRA has some good ones and membership can provide a few benefits. Some lament certain veiws they hold but I think the NRA does an acceptable job of representing a very large base of gun owners who don't see eye-to-eye on all issues. I was impressed when they sent me a form to list what issues were important to me. As a member you also get to vote for the people on the board of directors.

If you want to protect yourself outside of the home, you will need a concealed pistol permit and a pistol.

Long story short, a 9mm (cheaper and easier to find than the other major calibers) modern pistol.
Enjoy the search for the perfect one. Then enjoy the search for the perfect holster. :001_smile

[RHVette]

I'm also confused about the shotgun comment. Not all shotguns are long, you can have a shotgun with an 18" barrel without going though ATF for permits. That is plenty short enough for maneuvering in a house. 2 3/4" buckshot has mild recoil and plenty of power for self defense. No need for magnum loads. A 20 gauge would be fine too.

The issue is that the shotgun has to have a barrel at least 18" long and IIRC an overall length not less than 26". Comparatively, a handgun usually has an overall length somewhere around the 4-6" mark. You can keep a handgun close to your chest, but still shootable (i.e. pointed out, not at the ground.) To do that with a shotgun is all but impossible.

[catfish308]

The issue is that the shotgun has to have a barrel at least 18" long and IIRC an overall length not less than 26". Comparatively, a handgun usually has an overall length somewhere around the 4-6" mark. You can keep a handgun close to your chest, but still shootable (i.e. pointed out, not at the ground.) To do that with a shotgun is all but impossible.

By all means a pistol is easier. I was just pointing out a shotgun can be fairly short and manevenerable.

You are correct about 26inch overall length.

[DizzyArnaz]

Thank you all so much for the great information presented thus far. It's really helped me a lot in this major decision in my life. Keep it coming, there's a lot of excellent points being made about gun ownership here.

[Sticky]

Two decent references for some home study:


In The Gravest Extreme by Massad F. Ayoob
Stressfire. Volume 1 by Massad F. Ayoob

The former answers the "when" question. The latter answers the "how".
Link (http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=Ayoob&Category_Code=AMAB).

[rtaylor61]

I keep a Mossberg 500 12 gauge w/18" barrel close by for home defense. I never leave home without either a .38 Special or .9mm, or both, on my person. And I am licensed to carry. I carry concealed but Utah is an open carry state. I do not believe that a screaming alarm is any more effective for chasing off an intruder than the sound of racking a shell into the chamber of a shotgun. My boss asked me why I carried a handgun at work. I explained that part of my job includes going off on test drives with customers that we have never met and have no knowledge of their background. While my decision to carry is in violation of work rules, he totally understood. I do not believe in breaking the law. But in some circumstances, I have no problem breaking the rules. It is my life on the line. Bad drivers are one thing. Criminals are another.

Randy

[dougr]

It has to be a shotgun and I favor the O/U's and the automatics which are really semi-automatic. You may want to pick one that shoulders nicely and is made well like a Remington or Winchester. The Brownings are more money and I would not buy a cheap one that may misfire or worse. You can select a 20 ga or a 12 ga as the shells are cheaper for practice, especially the 7 1/2 or 8s used for birds, small animals, and sporting clays that will give you practice and familiarity with your guns. Go with low brass for practice and high brass for protection; maybe, some 0 or 00 buck would be good to have in the closet. And, store everything out of reach of young ones.

[dougr]

This would probably be extremely effective... just mount it on the roof of your home.

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/Gau8a_a.jpg

Wow, my neighbor has that one mounted in his dormer:gunsmilie:

[shyrlock]

I agree with Mazeman. It is important to learn about, get comfortable with and enjoy shooting. For this purpose a nice .22 cal revolver or rifle are what I would heartily recommend. Who am I? Nobody but a former NRA instructor and professional gunsmith.
The .22 is a lot of fun to shoot, does not have much recoil or muzzle flash, and ammo if cheap enough to let you shoot a lot.
After you learn how to shoot the .22 well, you can look at some other guns.
By then you will have a good idea of what you like.

[fine wine]

Two decent references for some home study:


In The Gravest Extreme by Massad F. Ayoob
Stressfire. Volume 1 by Massad F. Ayoob

The former answers the "when" question. The latter answers the "how".
Link (http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=Ayoob&Category_Code=AMAB).

If Ayoob writes it you can take it to the bank..........:thumbup:

[Gravy]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it an N.R.A. certified instructor who taught those 7 F.B.I. agents in Florida how to shoot? In the eighties I think. Yes if I remember correctly 2 bad guys took on 7 agents and won..........

It may have been the NRA that taught them to shoot, but it was not the NRA that issued them .38's and other pistols to take to a rifle fight.
One may have had a shotgun but I'm not sure why you would blame NRA instructors for how the FBI equiped their personnel or how they conduct felony stops. The NRA has no say in those matters.

There have been many studies on that stop and this is the first time I've heard "It's the NRA's fault". You hear something new everyday.

Edit:
Been a long time since I've seen this thread.

[Nyr0x]

I'm sure most have told you to check your state laws. It's important whether you buy a shotgun or a pistol. If an intruder were to brake into your home in lets say, New York, and you shot and killed him. You go to jail and get charged with 3rd degree murder, unless he had a weapon and was threatening your life. Just by him being inside your home does not justify you killing him. Good Luck!@

[MASSDRIVER]

If Ayoob writes it you can take it to the bank..........:thumbup:
Cause he has been in so many gunfights?:001_rolle

[Jim]

Lets stay on point here Gents-

[fine wine]

Cause he has been in so many gunfights?:001_rolle

2 that I know of.............How about you?:001_tt2:

[fine wine]

It may have been the NRA that taught them to shoot, but it was not the NRA that issued them .38's and other pistols to take to a rifle fight.
One may have had a shotgun but I'm not sure why you would blame NRA instructors for how the FBI equiped their personnel or how they conduct felony stops. The NRA has no say in those matters.

There have been many studies on that stop and this is the first time I've heard "It's the NRA's fault". You hear something new everyday.

Edit:
Been a long time since I've seen this thread.

Did I say it was the NRA's fault? There were 357's there also. What my point was is that everyone throws out the nra as if they are the final word on the subject which involves firearms. Personally I think the NRA .........just forget it. It will just start another arguement............

[Jim]

Lets stay on point here Gents-

Last call-

[ryan020406]

There is another thread also going on about first firearm/home defense if you haven't checked it out yet.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=204077

[DavyRay]

Shotgun is best for home defense. I was in the navy for 6 years, and I spent some time on my ships boarding team. That means I was trained to go onto other ships...who often did not want us there...while fully armed and ready for conflict. When the adrenaline gets pumping and you know that there is somebody around that might be trying to kill you, it is difficult to hold a pistol steady. A shotgun means that it doesn't matter as much if you can hold it steady while terrified.


Strongly agree with this, the voice of experience. Shooting at a range is vastly different than shooting in a situation. I got an adrenaline experience while doing some informal shooting with some buddies at the lake. After we determined that no one was actually hurt, I was surprised to find that I could not hit my end of the lake, much less my floating target. Practice helps here, but practice with adrenaline is tough to arrange.

Long guns are easier to point.

Anyway, Dizzy, you have found a friend with the right connections. I'm sure you will learn all you need.

[cliffordNC]

another good option for home defense is a pistol caliber carbine like the kel-tec sub2000. far easier to hit with than a handgun, plenty of stopping power, but not nearly as much blast as a shotgun.

[TankCommander1554]

For home defense I would say a shotgun is probably your first purchase. Shotguns are the easiest IMHO to handle if you have never shot before. Many rounds including pistol, rifle, and shotgun will still go through walls so I wouldn't worry too much about over penetration. I would say in the future you might want to look into CCW. If that's the case, my suggestion is a Glock 19 with XS Big Dot Sights. Get some quality training no matter what weapon you decide to go with.