F/S Posts in Shopping vs Marketplace

[VintageBlades]

I have noticed recently that there have been a number of posts of items for sale (F/S) by members in the "Shopping" Forum of the Site rather than in the more traditional "Buy/Sell/Trade" Forum. While this may seem a trivial issue, as a member who is also a "vendor", I am constrained as to where I can place certain content within the Site. The only place where I can post items of a promotional nature is in the "Shopping" Forum. The "shelf life" of these posts is significantly limited by the addition of the F/S posts that constantly drive them further and further down and eventually off the first page. I recommend that the moderator clarify the policy concerning use of the “Shopping” Forum and if appropriate move these F/S posts to the proper forum.

[KenS]

I'm a newbie on this forum, but it sounds reasonable and logical to separate the commercial sellers from the casual sellers.
Ken.

[Antique Hoosier]

I think if you are a "Vendor" with a commercial site linking from this one you should only expect your shelf space if you are paying for it. I think if you are a wet shaving enthusiast who participates (KEY WORD Participates) in ongoing forum discusssions on the level of an enthusiast and is generally a respect member of this online community, you should be able to list an occasional item on the Buy/Sell/Trade area. I think if a member who doesn't actively participate in community forum discussions and whos sole reason for being a B&B member is to sell product, they should be placing their wares in the Shopping Forum.I have placed items in both forums but consider myself a Member who participates. I will not place further ads in the Shopping section becuase I am NOT a vendor with this site, have NEVER been a vendor who links to an outside site for sales, and WILL NOT be a vendor.

[AACJ]

This has been discussed in depth by the moderators. While most people that post in the buy/sell/trade topic are general, contributing members, there are some people that sell items for a profit, possibly even a second income. We have asked those we feel are "marketing" themselves and their products to post their items in the shopping forum as the items are purchased for the intent of reselling them at a profit, even if they are a contributing member. Some members have gone as far as adding their items for sale to their signature lines, we discourage this as well.

Most of the members that post in the buy/sell/trade topic are selling something they bought, thinking they would like it but ended up giving another member an oportunity to try it for themselves.

[Austin]

I have sold items on this site as well as shavemyface with the intent of helping members. I rarely make a profit on my sales. As I mentioned, my intent is not to make a profit. If you make a profit on a Toggle that's ok with me as long as you are not out to take advantage of members.

[Antique Hoosier]

The handful of items that I have sold have gone to members of this forum at a number less than what they would have brought in other markets. Profit is not a major motivation when it comes to being a part of any online community such as this one. I think the "Shopping Police Mods" have done an excellent job maintaining the fairness of the community. Have a super Sunday everyone!

[Tony Miller]

AAJC,

I just wanted to be clear on your statement:

<<< Some members have gone as far as adding their items for sale to their signature lines, we discourage this as well. >>>

Do you mean vendors like myself adding a signature line with a web address and business line like "strops, sets, etc...) ?

I rarely use the Shopping section here but do include my signature line on each post I make in the discussion forums. I value my visits here and want to play by the rules so please let me know if this is acceptable.

Thanks,
Tony

[Kyle]

While I am not the final word, Tony, it is my understanding/interp that what you have done is fine. If there were a problem with the format you've chosen, you would be privately contacted (as a gentleman should be) with a kind request to modify your link (we try to avoid the S.W.A.T. team mentality :biggrin:).

We've tried to keep the guidelines for such things as simple as possible because we've found most vendor-members that do participate here to be unique from each other (some with actual stores, some without, and many other nuances) which prevents the application of a truly standardized/all-encompassing set of guidelines.

Ultimately, we wish for the Buy/Sell/Trade forum to not be an income generator. Repetitive sales of this nature belong in the Shopping Forum.

I hope that this helps to shed a bit of light on the subject.

[guenron]

Could it be there is a need for a clear(er) policy statement on that which constitutes fair use of the Shopping Forum? Perhaps one thread per week per vendor and only for special deals/sales?
I never really thought the Shopping Forum was to become an eBay-like venue, but then again what serves the community best? SInce Joel and Nick are presently footing the bill for bandwidth, etc. perhaps they need to make a difinitive statement of policy?

[perry]

Could it be there is a need for a clear(er) policy statement on that which constitutes fair use of the Shopping Forum? Perhaps one thread per week per vendor and only for special deals/sales?

When the ToS (http://www.badgerandblade.com/index.php?page=terms) was updated a couple weeks ago, I thought it said just that. Things were laid out pretty clearly. Now, it looks like a lot of that has been removed....?

I look to the shopping forum for deals and steals and places to find them, and to the selling forum for individuals selling stuff. Seeing some for sale items in the selling forum kinda confused me.

[AACJ]

While I am not the final word, Tony, it is my understanding/interp that what you have done is fine. If there were a problem with the format you've chosen, you would be privately contacted (as a gentleman should be) with a kind request to modify your link (we try to avoid the S.W.A.T. team mentality :biggrin:).



Ditto

Thanks Kyle

[Tony Miller]

AAJC and Kyle,

Thanks for the clarification. Just wanted to be sure I was following the rules. I try to use these forums just as I do SRP. My personal items go in "Buying. Selling, etc.." special deals, new items in my line go in "Shopping". If asked about my products in a normal thread I will answer questions and clear up any confusion but try not to "sell" my wares there.

This is a free service to all of us provided by other peoples hard earned dollars, and we need to respect whatever the requirements are.

Thanks guys,
Tony

[AACJ]

NO, Thank YOU Tony!



AAJC and Kyle,

Thanks for the clarification. Just wanted to be sure I was following the rules. I try to use these forums just as I do SRP. My personal items go in "Buying. Selling, etc.." special deals, new items in my line go in "Shopping". If asked about my products in a normal thread I will answer questions and clear up any confusion but try not to "sell" my wares there.

This is a free service to all of us provided by other peoples hard earned dollars, and we need to respect whatever the requirements are.

Thanks guys,
Tony

[Kyle]

Could it be there is a need for a clear(er) policy statement on that which constitutes fair use of the Shopping Forum? Perhaps one thread per week per vendor and only for special deals/sales?
I never really thought the Shopping Forum was to become an eBay-like venue, but then again what serves the community best? SInce Joel and Nick are presently footing the bill for bandwidth, etc. perhaps they need to make a difinitive statement of policy?

It is difficult to lay down an all encompassing, definitive statement of policy. Further, just when you think you've found such a policy, an oddball scenario pops up that doesn't really fall within the "letter of the law".

This board has experienced some pretty phenomenal growth in a fairly short period of time, and along with the enrichment that this provides, it brings along its fair share of new conflicts. We will undoubtedly find the answer to this issue and to any others that arise, but from time to time it will require patience from all parties involved.

[rtaylor61]

I'll chime in as a member vs. being a moderator. As a moderator, my first concern is that we keep this a family friendly site and that we protect our members. Now, we do have members who join just to sell items. We have members who join just to buy items. And this creates a fine line for those who are here to "keep the peace". As a member of MANY shaving forums, I've seen Tony Miller participate as a member. Mainly at SRP, but also at others. And I know where Tony draws the line. He errs to the cautious side of things. I hold Tony up as example of how a member/vendor should participate.

IMO, anyone who buys things to sell here can have two very different ideas for what he/she is doing. Maybe we have a member who joins and buys things to sell because he can buy them cheap and sell them cheap, with the intent of saving folks money. But, we also have members who join because they can buy cheap and reap a profit. This puts the moderators in a tough spot. When a member joins who has an ebay store or other website with which they retail, their initial participation is key. How they act, participate and hawk their wares puts the moderators on the spot to make a snap decision. It may not always be the right decision, but based on the available information, it is a decision made in the best interest of the mainstream members. If any vendor feels singled out, go back and review your history. From the viewpoint of what a moderator must decide. If you feel you have a case to make, the discuss it privately via pm with the moderator of the forum. He will present it to the moderators. Since the owners of this forum pay for it without advertising, we are all guests. Whether a vendor or not, this place is provided to you for free. Guidelines for the forum have to be reviewed as different situations develop.

In the end, this is a forum for having fun discussing shaving, and helping new guys learn the ropes. It is about sharing and having fun. The Selling forum is for members who have purchased excess items, or items that just don't work for them. Let's remember why this forum was created. And keep our participation in that spirit.

Randy

[Sue]

I removed my website URL and would like to continue to be a part of this forum. I exend my sincere apology if I have offended anyone by having my website on my signature line.
Sue M.

[rtaylor61]

Sue,

Keep your URL in your signature. There is no doubt, IMO, that you deserve to do so. Your products are great, and you abide by the rules. There is, IMO, no reason for you to make any changes.

Randy

[AACJ]

Sue,

Keep your URL in your signature. There is no doubt, IMO, that you deserve to do so. Your products are great, and you abide by the rules. There is, IMO, no reason for you to make any changes.

Randy

Ditto

[Sue]

Thank you, Sue

[Austin]

Sue, we love our vendors. Especially the ones that contribute to the shave experience. We are glad you are here.

[guenron]

As with many threads, this one has gotten way off topic. If you read the first post, it could be construed as a complaint by one of the vendors that certain individuals are abusing the SHOPPING venue with numerous posts selling their wares. Now we are worried about urls in signatures. Well, for one, I am glad to see the sensitivity of many of our fine vendors and unhappy to see the insensitivity of others. I think the issue in the first post remains unaddressed. As long as nothing addresses vendors coming in with a half dozen or more threads selling specific items, you will have their clutter obscuring the threads of others. Just that simple. Moderators can sit there and moderate to their hearts content while others will fulminate to theirs. What some call growth others will see as pollution. A great deal of rich content has been hidden in the noise, I think Jim's post was addressing the "Commercial" noise. I already had traded PMs with Art over just this issue. I do not believe that anyone would argue that the threads in contention are commercial activity, not personal sales. If thats what the moderators think is in the best interest of the "Community" and Joel and Nick are willing to subsidize it, why are we even discussing this? Jim probably needs to become more prolific and add another half dozen threads every week and start "bumping" them. Then there will be some kind of equitable free advertisiing..:001_unsur

[scorpion]

You guys are obviously talking about Lonny - probably others as well, but definitely him as he has lots of posts on the Sales forum right now when they used to just be in the mall. Has anyone contacted him? He seems like a nice person and a reasonable guy.

I think it makes perfect sense for individuals to sell in the mall and let's keep the commercial stuff in the sales area - it's not fair to the vendors who are trying to play nice. Maybe Lonny considers himself to be a vendor these days so he's trying to be helpful by moving to sales? The problem is that the larger vendors are just putting up a link and they get bumped to page 3 while all the replies on the razors keep all Lonny's links on page 1.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers - just saying out loud what everyone is tiptoeing around. I'm sure it's something that can be worked out amicably. I personally like checking out Lonny's stuff and the specials for the various vendors.

[Taz]

I think this is a fine line, I think a lot of us like some of the vendor updates, Special deals for us, new soap flavor, new product etc. Matter of fact I would not mind more updates and specials and maybe that is where the line is New products or B&B specials yes, just promoting company no. I know there is plenty of times one of are smaller vendor friends have something new that we do not find out about for awhile, that I would of loved to find out earlier, We've talked about this alot look at Charles QED, did not know Emily Em's Place had cream and I use her stuff and love it heard it through the grape vine here. A few ideas and do not know if this is possible is have sub categories under the mall. New product updates B&B Specials and then just selling. This might even make it easier for are smaller vendors (one person shows) to communicate to us some of their new stuff. And maybe to keep the clutter out the just selling or promoting does not show up in new posts we would have to go there if interested. I also am in favor of the links in the signatures, products or ads no. And I also would like to thank the vendors that contribute to the conversations and bring their insight into the forum. Just my 2 cents I will stop rambling now. :biggrin:

[Brownie981]

The way I see it, is that the FS/FT area is for members who wish to remove or add items to their personal "stash." While the shopping area is a great place to find out about deals or sales or a new company that has opened up. Best example to date for me is the Floris samples that went out. I am still relatively new to wetshaving, 6 months or so, and there are always new products that I either may not have heard of, haven't tried, or haven't been able to try due to cost constraints. The shopping area aleviates all those problems, I get to read about new products the Mama Bear offers, find out about shipping discounts and sales, and find out how to get free samples. However, when the shopping forum is used as a distribution site for a members goods it really clogs up the forum, imo. If I wanted to purchase a member's goods I would go to the members web site.

[scorpion]

However, when the shopping forum is used as a distribution site for a members goods it really clogs up the forum, imo.

That's a good point. I agree.

[Xert]

I think that the Terms of Service could be helpfully modified to elaborate on what exactly might constitute an "abuse" of the Shopping forum. Two relatively simple solutions appear:
A) Limit vendors to one active thread in which all of their wares must be posted, which would greatly reduce the clutter.
B) Insist that vendors list their business offsite (even a blog would do) and only advertise special events in the shopping forum. This would have the additional advantage of evening the playingfield by making all of the for-profit members play by the same rules.

[Tony Miller]

We did get a bit off track on this and I do really understand Jim's point. You post a special like Free shipping, etc.... and within hours your post is a page back and lost to most members. Then again, as pointed out maybe the non-vendor was worried his frequent posts would be construed as doing business and wanted to stay of the Buy Sell Trade area out of respect to the group.

Good intentions all around but still frustrating. I can see where it would be difficult to set hard, fast rules here.

As Randy pointed out many of us try to err on the conservative side but often a member asks specific questions on out products in a public forum. So, not to look like a sales pitch I try to give a quick general answer then ask the member to contact me directly.

As a customer of others as well as a vendor I appreciate seeing these posts. I would not have known about many of these smaller vendors and some great products and deals were it not for these forums.

Tony

Tony

[Agent86]

Count me amongst those that think the shopping forum is becoming polluted.

I visit the shopping forum to see what our vendors (SCS, Lee, Vintage Blades, etc.) have to offer. I don't have the time or the inclination to wade through a bunch of posts from an individual that is only here to sell. If this becomes the norm, I'll just avoid this area of the board.

[AACJ]

Actually we recieved complaints that the buy/sell/trade forum was getting polluted by members that were here only to sell items. So we asked those members to move their posts to the shopping forum, now we are getting complaints from the members that the shopping forum is getting polluted as well from the same posters.

I don't really know what to tell everyone. As a moderator, I help the person that originally lodged the complaint, but then I take the chance of offending the person who was originally complained about at the risk of losing a member, then when we make a decision, everyone complains about that as well. I can't ask the person who is here only to sell to not post or leave the forum, he is actually selling some very nice stuff, he's just here to sell it, period. He really hasn't been active in the forum other than that, but he is here to sell shaving stuff, and this IS a shaving forum.

You can please some people some of the time but you can't please all the people all the time.

I think what we are trying to decide here is what is the difference between a vendor and someone here just to sell stuff (and where there posts should go).




Count me amongst those that think the shopping forum is becoming polluted.

I visit the shopping forum to see what our vendors (SCS, Lee, Vintage Blades, etc.) have to offer. I don't have the time or the inclination to wade through a bunch of posts from an individual that is only here to sell. If this becomes the norm, I'll just avoid this area of the board.

[guenron]

No one seems to see the 4000 LB elephant in the Shopping Forum. The whole issue arises from the fact that a commercial sales operation is taking place in the forum and as a result both the vendor community and the user community are being penalized. The forum format is not appropriate for this kind of activity and does not support it well if you are trying to provide service to multiple users.
Until either Joel or Nick decide that enough is enough, that's the way it's going to be. For now, I am going to experiment with the ignore list to see if it provides a bit of relief. After all, I could miss out on the a rare razor announcement.:laugh:

[AACJ]

Ron, I've made some propositions to the mods that might work.....it gives everyone an opportunity to do what they want. I understand your point exactly, as well as everyone elses....as you know we are trying to work this out so everyone is happy.

[Xert]

Thanks Art, I appreciate your thoughtful candor in dealing with the difficulties of this particular question.

[scorpion]

"I can't ask the person who is here only to sell to not post or leave the forum, he is actually selling some very nice stuff, he's just here to sell it, period. He really hasn't been active in the forum other than that, but he is here to sell shaving stuff, and this IS a shaving forum."

agreed. it's pretty nice for noobs and old-timers alike to have access to some quality vintage razors without having to go to ebay. it's all a question of where to put it while keeping the most people happy.

[Agent86]

Art, I appreciate what you're trying to do.

I should have been more clear; it's the quantity of threads that I find distracting. Perhaps limiting the number of active threads would help matters...

[VintageBlades]

Thanks to all for the numerous contributions to this thread. I asked for some clarification on what I saw as a relatively “simple matter”. Clearly I was wrong.

Like Tony, I consider myself both a contributing member and a vendor. A good many of my posts are in forums other than Shopping. I have also tried not to pollute the Shopping forum with “still on sale” notices and the like (well maybe once).

But to Ron’s point, I am doing “commerce” in the Shopping forum. I make a living (or at least try to) selling razors and shaving supplies. Being a member of B&B is a privilege that I try diligently not to abuse. I hope that there is a solution to the issue that I raised that can be worked out to the satisfaction of all.

[rtaylor61]

I see part of this as totally black and white. When a member is posting and participating, and along the way sells a few items. Fine. But when a member is posting to sell, with less than around 10% of his posts being actual participation, then the forum is being used as a avenue for revenue. Or, IMO, a way to avoid ebay and and possibly PayPal fees. This forum is provided free of charge. Yes, it is great if the items are good quality and make it easier for members to make purchases, but it is still using the forum for personal gain. I take exception with that.

Randy

[mjsorkin]

Is there a practical benefit to placing FS posts from certain sellers in the shopping forum? What does it accomplish? When these posts were in the FS forum, I knew that the sellers were only there to sell wares. Nothing has changed but the location of the posts.

-----Michael

[guenron]

Thanks to all for the numerous contributions to this thread. I asked for some clarification on what I saw as a relatively “simple matter”. Clearly I was wrong.

Like Tony, I consider myself both a contributing member and a vendor. A good many of my posts are in forums other than Shopping. I have also tried not to pollute the Shopping forum with “still on sale” notices and the like (well maybe once).

But to Ron’s point, I am doing “commerce” in the Shopping forum. I make a living (or at least try to) selling razors and shaving supplies. Being a member of B&B is a privilege that I try diligently not to abuse. I hope that there is a solution to the issue that I raised that can be worked out to the satisfaction of all.
Jim,
Perhaps you understood me better than I do.:biggrin1: I have not seen you do anything but advertise, which by the way is fine with me. That is a service to the members when done with sensitivity. What I don't like is having each piece of merchandise being SOLD on the forum.. Therein is the difference. By its very nature, this sort of thing obfuscates the information that should be available to everyone. I will on occasion post information about new products and or sales at various stores/vendors of which I have NO financial interest, and I am not SELLING it here. I would have no problems with a reasonable number of advertisements if they pointed would-be buyers to an email address or a web presence other than the forum. I hope that clarifies my feelings.
I originally had hoped to have the SHOPPING venue contain a mixture of user finds and vendor specials. Some of that was lost when the management decided to remove the posters ability to modify a message after so many days. I also had the problem with less disciplined, but eager members posting conversations in the thread that was intended to be an index but quickly became a BS session. So much for the best laid plans of mice and men..
I believe that Art and the other mods will come to some sort of accommodation that will either make everyone happy or no one happy, but it will resolve the issue at least temporarily. BTW, got any bargains for sale?:biggrin1:

[Tony Miller]

<<< I also had the problem with less disciplined, but eager members posting conversations in the thread that was intended to be an index but quickly became a BS session. So much for the best laid plans of mice and men.. >>>

Yikes <g>. There is one I was guilty of on SRP. I made a Vendor post about a product delay and mentioned I had a health issue that slowed things down. many of my well meaning friends asked about that in the same thread, I would respond and we had 15+ posts about the merits of surgery over chiropractic <g> Most of the way through the thread the intent of explaining the timeframe for the product was lost to most and I still got a dozen PM asking what was first posted.

Maybe a Vendor posting thread where responses could not be placed would help this? A vendor posts his "special" and the thread is then locked to outside posts. Members with questions would then be forced to e-mail them directly instead of clogging the threads with more questions and possibly off topic posts. of course that would also eliminate the ability to bump the thread back to the top as well.

Just a thought.

Tony

[Padron]

Maybe a "Sticky" for Vendors / Members that actually have a Web-page or Web-store would be nice. That way they can update their sales / promotions and it's easy for everyone to find.

I am one that was happy to see Lonny selling vintage gillettes here ( B&B ) on whatever sub-forum it was, kept me from having to go to e-bay to try and find what I was looking for at a reasonable price and I got several really nice vintage gillettes that were not available in any other vendors stores.


Not quite sure what the big deal is as everyone in either sub-forum is trying to sell something....

[scorpion]

Not quite sure what the big deal is as everyone in either sub-forum is trying to sell something....

I think the big deal is that when there are multiple posts and bumps and conversation in the sales forum it moves all the traditional vendors off the front page. So their sale or new product or free shipping special, which they just post once, isn't seen by most people while one or two private sellers of individual items monopolize the front page. A lot of these folks make their living with their products as well as provide valuable support and advice to this burgeoning community... and while it might seem like a small deal to us, they are in some ways losing one of the benefits they had to being here.

I agree that Lonny does provide a valuable service - I've bought a razor from him myself. The question is where to put somebody who's not really a vendor, but not really a regular member just selling a razor or tub of cream he no longer needs. He's a tweener so to speak. I don't envy the moderators - they have a tough job. Personally, I'd put him back into the shaving mall as it seemed to be less problematic, but it's not my call and I understand why they asked him to move. I know people are thinking about it - it'll get worked out.

[Padron]

Great Points!. Well, whatever the Mods decide, it's all good as I have bought stuff from most of the vendors here, and if I haven't yet...I have plans too.

Thanks to B&B for providing the vendors a "Free" form of advertisement and for allowing others to offer us great deals on their shaving wares as well. :biggrin:

I still like the idea of a vendor sticky...:biggrin: That the vendors could edit..

[scorpion]

I still like the idea of a vendor sticky...:biggrin: That the vendors could edit..

Not a bad idea. I have little doubt that that could get screwed up too. That's the problem with a 'living' website... it's a constantly evolving entity. As soon as you fix something, it breaks something else. We at least are blessed in that The Powers That Be are active and paying attention.

[AACJ]

Tony, that is the job (one of many it seems) of the moderator, to keep the thread on subject.

I don't think this thread has really gone off track, although some might think so. (until now):tongue:



snip....

Yikes <g>. There is one I was guilty of on SRP. I made a Vendor post about a product delay and mentioned I had a health issue that slowed things down. many of my well meaning friends asked about that in the same thread, I would respond and we had 15+ posts about the merits of surgery over chiropractic <g> Most of the way through the thread the intent of explaining the timeframe for the product was lost to most and I still got a dozen PM asking what was first posted. snip....

[Doc4]

Well, at least we can all agree on one thing ... we're grateful for the moderaters for keepin B&B humming along as well as it does.

Ask a dozen B&Bers about any issue here, and you'll get 14 different opinions, but there's one thing we can all agree on: we're glad that B&B exists, and hooray for the guys who make it work.

:001_smile

[AACJ]

I'll bet there are those that don't agree with you... :laugh:


Well, at least we can all agree on one thing ... we're grateful for the moderaters for keepin B&B humming along as well as it does.

Ask a dozen B&Bers about any issue here, and you'll get 14 different opinions, but there's one thing we can all agree on: we're glad that B&B exists, and hooray for the guys who make it work.

:001_smile