Learning Method Shaving

[methodshaving.com]

I am starting a new thread to seperate what was going on in the other one. I will address in general what needs to be done. I will make a number of suggestions that I hope you will head if you wish to learn the framework for method shaving.

First see Joel's review it is a very nice guide to start the thought process. Second, please read the articles on my web site. You will find no better collection of information regarding method shaving. Next peruse the message board on my site, it does have tons of info and you will see how we helped people in similar situations and how the problems will be solved. I am not trying to draw people away from this site, but it would be foolish of you to ignore the wealth of concentrated info on that site. Now on to the dirty work.

First a few rules I think every one should keep in mind.
1. work the cube just a bit longer than you think you need to
2. work your cream just a bit longer
3. add a bit more water than you think you can
4. keep working the first form. cut 2,3,4 times if you need
5. use more tonic, really get that face wet
6. use a little less aftershave balm that you think you need. This goes with more tonic
7. move you grip to the very bottom of the razor
8. if using an adjustable razor... dial down, you will want to use more than you need
9. do not be affraid to lay the cutting balm on thick, and then thin it down.
10. change your blade frequently.
11. don't waste your time trying to stretch you skin, it is not needed and will cuase more irritation than it is worth.

Now for the basics with some info:

When building a wet mix, or releasing it from a brush, we use an open breech. Simply put press down on you bristles untill the splay out in a circle from the center of your brush. This is how you release the water into the cream and properly hydrate it. Next always remeber to use a pumping action throughout the building of this mix. This allows water to be loaded and released into the cream making it fully hydrated. When buliding a mix, start with the cube and do not stop untill it is thick, dense and very concentrated on your brush. If it is thin or runny or you use it for a second or two you have gained nothing. Next add some english cream to the palm of your hand, and work that cream untill it is fully mixed with the soap from the cube. Beleive me you can tell the difference between the two and you will know when it is mixed. Always remember to do these things open breech. Now it is time to actually hydrate this stuff, thats right this stuff is a dry mix, though it is probably thicker and denser than anything you have seen. So take the brush to the face and with an open breach scrub a layer of the mix on your face, then slowly pull the brush off you face. This will open a hole in the center of your brush, add water to it. Then go back and work this water on your face and start scubbing the face with your brush. Do this several times, and you will find a copious amounts of cream all over you face and building around the base of your neck. Scoop up that stuff put in in the brush add some water and scrub again. A good minute and half or two will be about the right amount of time. This will soften the beard without the need for hot towels, and will lay down a very wet mix to cut.

Now for the cutting. Again please look at the forms on my site, these are the basic tenants we will use. Cut your forms, the 1st form is the most important and like I said earlier cut this one as often as you need until you face is nearly smooth. You should have little to no stubble and be near clean shaven when you are finished with form 1, meaning you should see little to no stubble and feel almost none if you run you hand in the direction of the cut. The proceed on to the 2nd and then 3rd form. Remeber this when cutting, angle is important. The rule I use is if you elbow is not at the top of your head of above you are coming in to steep. Here is a nice trick that has worked for a lot of people. Put the center of the head of your razor flat against you face, the handle should then be parrallel to the floor. Now slowly drop the handle and pull the blade down untill you feel it grab on your beard. This is the angle you want to cut at. So while you are learning, cut small strips about 1" at a time and concentrate on your angle. Soon you will cut long fluid lines with a good sense of angle, but this is a nice training exercise. Always remeber this, only cut where there is cream to cut. No cream/water = no cut. So one pass of the blade per form over one area.

Cutting balm is easy to use and should be used to cut those few remaining patches of tough hard to see stubble that you find with your finger tips. Lay the cutting balm a pump at a time on to you very wet face. Keep the blade moving and use any of the 3 forms needed in small sections to wipe away these little buggers. For very difficult patches use a lot of cutting balm and thin it with the cube by working the cube in you hand.

When done, soak you face with tonic and lay on a small amount of aftershave cream, then spray again with tonic. Allow it to air dry, it only takes a few 30 seconds. Splash on some of you favorite scent and head on out for the day.

[Brett G]

As I said in the last thread, the experienced Method Shaving guys don’t always agree on everything. I would like to add my thoughts to the rules that Adam listed;

While Form 1 is certainly the most important, I don’t feel the need to cut it more than once unless I have not shaved for a couple of days. It is good advice for the stone beginner to focus on Form 1, but once the shaver has a little bit of experience I feel that Form 3 is the real key to the shave. Most guys have the hardest time getting a close shave along the jaw-line. Mastering the J-stroke that is the core of Form 3 is what puts a shaver over the top.

No matter what medium you use (soap, English cream, HydroLast) it is important to go from thin to thick. A thinner/wetter mix makes it easier to cut the longer hairs. Save the Cutting Balm and/or shaving oil for the finishing pass when the extra protection is needed.

Like the wetness of the mix, skin tension needs to change over the course of the shave. It should go from slack in the beginning to tighter at the end. While I do not stretch my skin, I will use my free hand to hold the skin in place. This is only necessary during the finishing pass and maybe Form 3. I have a heavy beard and can not get the needed bite without a bit of skin tension. Those gents with lighter beards probably don’t need to do this but others might. We all manipulate skin tension in some way. If only from moving our face and jaw around.

The bottom line is that the basic Method Shaving techniques can be used with any razor and any medium. The reason why we speak of these techniques in conjunction with CAR’s products is because they are of the highest quality, fit the system, and simply work the best.

[PoshRichM]

Brett and Adam, thanks for getting this started.

I did have some questions about particulars, and possible clarifications.

You mention, Adam, that the brush is both filled/loaded from the Cube and scrubbed on the face in the open-breech position. You also mention pumping the brush up and down on the Cube while loading it. I have seen some method shavers mention "locking the breech" (and Joel did in his pictorial), which I interpret to mean closing it, or squeezing the bristles until the open region in the center is no longer there. Is this something worth doing? You don't mention it, and I've mentioned it below where I think it may go.

Steps I've inferred from Joel's article (which I understand was based on talks with Charles), your post, and MethodShaving articles I've read (please correct me if I'm not understanding):

I. CUBE
1. (Probably) pre-soak Cube and brush: 30 seconds or 1 minute? You don't mention it above.
2. "Charge" or "load" the brush with "slag" by scrubbing and pumping extensively on the Cube
3. (Not mentioned below) Add hot water to open breech and scrub the face with slag

II. ADD CREAM/PASTE
4. Add some English cream to the palm of your hand (or the open breech of the brush?) and/or some hydrolast paste, if you're an advanced method shaver
5. (Possibly) lock the breech
6. Mix in the hand, open-breech. This completes the "dry mix." Might be done directly on the face.

III. COMPLETE WET MIX
7. Lather the face (open breech), and slowly draw the brush away. Add some hot water into the breech.
8. Lather the face again, completing the wet mix.
9. (Possibly) If mix is too loose, scrub the Cube some more.

IV. SHAVE
10. Cut Form 1 (only where lather is, never recutting until relathered) as many times as needed until no stubble persists when felt with the grain.
11. Ditto Form 2 and 3, possibly adjusting looseness of the wet mix and tension of the skin as the shave progresses.
12. Cutting Balm can be used to assist touch-ups.
13. After shaving, use tonic and aftershave cream, then after drying, any cologne you like.

In case it's not evident, there are a lot of possible steps to infer, and some overlap between them, and they tend to be inconsistently explained from article to article. I could well assume that the process goes "scrub cube, add water, scrub more, add cream/paste, scrub more, add water, lather face, and shave" but I don't want to shortchange the process, and I'm expecting a thing called Method Shaving to have a precise and reproducible method, at least to start. I get that each shaver will customize the process over time, but what is the starting point?

Please explain to me what I don't understand, or am misinterpreting. My products are on the way from Enchanté, and I don't want to use them incorrectly.

-Rich

[methodshaving.com]

Rich,

Lets tackle this. Locking the breech, yes this is something you do when the brush is at a rest. Like when you set it down to shave. It keep the cream wet and prevents a loss of water.

I.
Yes thow the brush and cube in a sink of hot water. The brush will soak up the water and the cube will soften just a bit.

II.
All good there

III.
All good there

IV.
All good there

You actually have the basics down and well understood. Remeber for years this has been taught over the phone and in person. You would be surprised how much more effective this really is as the internet and written word sometime leaves a lot to be desired. The real fun stuff comes with the neat tricks you can learn to do with the blade, like J-Hooks, blade buffing, and angle adjustments. There are very fine adjustments and we will get into those more later.

[methodshaving.com]

Honk,

Forms are very close approximation to how you will cut, granted some leway and personal change up is standard. As for the concept of grain I do not buy into it. My hair is probably like most, it grown in every direction and no matter how hard I tried I would never be able to cut in the exact grain direction under as layer of cream. Not to mention it would take a half million little cuts with a 1-2cm blade. The name of the game is consistency day after day and reducing the beard gradually. It does not have to be accomplished in 2-3 passes it may take 4,5,6,7.....

[blueasajewel]

I've shaved a couple of times using what I have gleaned from Joel's pictorial,Adam's additional explanation, and Rich's excellent point summation - I must say that the shaves are very, very, very good!

I want to build on what i am doing but am not sure about the cutting forms. Like Hondonker- would appreciate some clarification.

Another question, why build the lather on ones hand rather than a bowl?

Also where are the forms (1, 2 & 3) available on the mehodshaving site? I can't seem to find them.

[methodshaving.com]

Well the manual vs bowl thing is a personal preference in the end. However, I firmly believe hand mixing gives you a much closer sense of how hydrated your mix is and yields a more consitent result especially for beginers.

As for the forms please see the following link.
http://www.methodshaving.com/content/view/25/38/

[blueasajewel]

Forgive my thickness - but how does one interperate what the diagram is saying?

[PoshRichM]

My Enchanté box arrived today, and tomorrow I will be giving the Method Shaving process a whirl. Wish me luck!

Oh, and a good sniff of the Cube doesn't bring dookie to my mind: it's very much the smell of the old Lava soap my dad used to use in his workshop. I think it's a very raw, earthy smell, but not unpleasant, and am very much relieved.

-Rich

[gage0921]

Forgive my thickness - but how does one interperate what the diagram is saying?


Im just guessing but the arrows with spaces are the 1.n to s pass and the soled arrow is the 2s to n. Then each spot is labled 1, 2, 3, 4, and these are the sections you do.... :confused:

[methodshaving.com]

There are three forms and each has broken the face into quadrant, which line up along the center of your nose and divide the along the jawline.

Follow the direction of the arrows, on form 1 it is straight down. On form 2 it is from the earn down to the chin. Form 3 can be cut 2 ways either from the bottom corner of the jaw up towards the nose or straight across.

Follow the lines and concenrate on one form at a time.

[Brett G]

Back to the grain issue,
The N/S stroke (aka Form 1) is a very powerful cut that will reduce the beard regardless of what direction it grows. Once it has been brought down below a certain level, the grain becomes less of a factor and the beard opens up to the other cuts (Form 2 & 3) that bring it down to near skin level. This is the reason why there is so much focus on Form 1, particularly for the beginner. Reduce the beard with Form 1 and grain really isn't an issue until the finishing stage. All of us have spots that are tough to nail; the shape of your face makes it tough to get at certain spots, a nasty cowlick, a folicular ridge that lays close the the skin. The point is, it is easier to deal with those vagueries at the end of the shave when the hair is very short then at the beginning when it is longer.

[PoshRichM]

Notes from this morning's shave:

Building the mix from the Cube and cream was very easy.
The process is indeed very messy.
Rinsing the razor in a sinkful of water is quicker and easier than rinsing it under the tap, however...
...How does one keep the water warm when the sink is sitting for the fifteen minutes of the shave, and you're no longer running the tap every 20 seconds or so? My water was all lukewarm to cold by the midpoint of the shave, and the tap needed a minute or two of running to get hot again.
Cutting Form 1 over and over irritated me hugely on the sides of my neck, where I usually shave a series of diagonals.
Cutting Form 2 did effectively nothing.
Cutting Form 3 (well, straight across) helped a lot, but by now my whole face was feeling raw.
Draining the sink and going back to rinsing the razor and the face with tap-fresh hot water helped immensely.
Cleanup took forever.
The RMWS moisturizing balm was great stuff, and a tiny amount went a long way, but left my face feeling rubbery instead of smooth. I still feel "swollen" rather than smooth, though my cheeks are completely stubble-free (written at 3 PM).So, the most important question I have: in between Method Shaving passes, should one rinse the face, or use the super-hydrated mix in the brush to wet down before cutting again? Rinsing between passes hasn't been in any of the procedures I've read, so I relied on what was in the brush, rehydrating the brush whenever it needed more water--even to the point that mix was spraying from the brush as I lathered. I have a feeling this (and not simply rinsing) added to the irritation of the shave. Thoughts? Clarification?

Finally, seeing statements such as this: As for the concept of grain I do not buy into it. shakes my confidence a bit. Grain is discussed every day on boards like this one and ShaveMyFace.com as a major factor in the strokes to perform and their technique and direction. I will keep trying to get my use of the products right, but after a shave with them, I don't see the Enchanté products allowing me to cut any which way I like.

-Rich

[methodshaving.com]

Rich,

Once you soak the brush and razor in warm watter to soften it you can drain the sink and use running water if you so desire. For me it is as much water conservation as anything else, I am moving to a well/septic in a few weeks so it is good practice for me.

Back down to one pass of form 1 for now and go lightly with the rest. For now you are effectively learning something new. It is as much a change in motor coordination as anything if you typically do not cut like this. So go easy and give yourself some time to adjust. it is no different than switching from an electric to a DE, it takes a little adjustment period.

I usually lather right up for each pass with out a rinse down untill I finish form 3. You are suffering from two common brush problems and these are the comments that inflame people so please do not take this the wrong way. If you are seeing a water and cream spraying from the brush you are suffering from a term called ejection. It is because the brush does not have the capacity to hold the amount of water and mix you are using. In a pure RMWS world, which is what you are playing with right now, this is the reason a big brush in silver tip is reccomended. It has the bristles and capacity for what is needed. In a situation where a brush suffers from ejection you will probably need to use a mug or bowl to keep control of the wet mix. The second problem is the need/desire to rehydrate the brus, this is causiing your mix to thin in combination with ejection. So you do not have enough cream when you add water. Most RMWS people will learn how to make a mix once and use the brush as the storage an release system.

I can not remeber what brush you are using so please let us know. It is something we can compensate for by use of a bowl etc. I am guessing you are using a SMF brush? Please no one take this is a knock on any brush, it is just to point out why the brush style choosed for RMWS is what it is.

[madmax]

And if the new Rooney brush in Finest surpasses a Chubby in water retention we may be looking at another item which may work with the Method system.

Max

[blueasajewel]

I relied on what was in the brush, rehydrating the brush whenever it needed more water--even to the point that mix was spraying from the brush as I lathered.

Am I correct in interpreting what I have read so far - that you initially want a very wet mix (i.e a fair amount of water) to facilitate High V passes - then proceed to a gradually thicker mix through form 2 and introduce the use of cutting balm along with a progressively thicker mix to facilitate the recommended lower velocity when cutting form 3 - then end off with just cutting balm for the T&C (if required)?

The progressively thicker mix tends to occur naturally over the course of the shave but may be adjusted by using the Cube - right?

[methodshaving.com]

Ravi,

You are right on the money with your asessment.

[methodshaving.com]

Max,
Water retention is part of it, the flattnes of the crown and desgin of the brush play a role as well. More so maybe than the actual bristle type, pst... don't tell anyone I said that. Problem is until now maybe with the Rooney and for sure with the brush CAR designed, only the simpsons in a few flavors were built with similar design properties.

Now you have to remeber the principle goals with RMWS and method shaving in genral is to create a mix once and keep it in the brush ready to go through out the shave, without having to work with a bowl, playing with water later, etc. All of these things can be compensated for if the brush is different in nature.

Short answer I am hopeful that Rooney will produce a brush that is as capable as Simpsons. I will see whent hey come out, I am seriously considering aquiring one.

[blueasajewel]

Ravi,

You are right on the money with your asessment.


By George! I think I've got it!

Thanks Adam!

[Joe Lerch]

Adam and Brett, I'm seeing lots of stuff here that makes lots of sense and would be learned only after many years of practice and experimentation. However, there are two points with which I must take issue. If you do research you'll find they're not good advice whether they are par to fthe system.

One is the issue of grain being of no consequence. If this were true, there would be no reason for your forms. You would just cut everything the same way (NS, whatever) on every pass. By adopting forms where the angle of attack varies, you're admitting the invalidity of your statement.

I will agree with one thing. If you're trying just to reduce the beard and not go over any spots, it shouldn't make a difference. However, even then it pays to go with the grain, because you can take more hair off without risking irritation.

If you get down to touchup and try cutting in every direction, you will find that going against the grain cuts you cleaner than any other direction. I can't get absolutely clean without doing it. How could grain be of no consequence?

The other point is that stretching is not important. There, you're on shaky ground and bucking generations, if not centuries of experience. I want to see you shave with a str8 without stretching. You'll gash every fold in your skin. The same goes for any really sharp razor (try a slant with a Feather blade). You may be able to get away with it if you dial an adjustable way down, sacraficing closeness. Even then, you'll need stretching by contorting your face.

By discouraging stretching, you're doing a disservice to those who have problems on the sides of the neck owing to extreme sensitivity. I can eliminate that in five minutes by teaching localized extreme stretching. With an extemely sharp blade you don't have to stretch as hard. I don't know what your solution to this problem would be, but I'd be interested in hearing about it. I have the problem and I've experimented for years trying to find a solution. This form of stretching is what I eventually came up with. Try it with someone who as this problem, you'll see immediate relief, just keep the touch extremely light and the blade angle flat.

All your detailed rules and procedures are great for getting a newbie on track, but I'm willing to bet you're much more flexible in your own practices. If I had to do that it would be a major factor in taking away the fun.

I've read about the J-cut and plow. I don't quite understand them. I wonder if you could explain them a little better. Could you also explain what they're accomplishing? :cool:

[methodshaving.com]

Joe,

I think the issue of grain and idea of grain is wrong, it is one of my real pet pieves so to each there own. This is something people really take issue with but I will explain my points. I am not really sure where the concept of grain originated from, as I can find no verifiable source for it not in a barbers manual no where. I do know where the forms we look at come from, a modified barbers cutting manual. If you look at these manuals you will usualy find ~20 cuts that are made to reduce and finish off a shave properly. No one's beard grows the same way and each persons hair grows differently, I think we can al agree on this. So then if the old barber addage is cut with the grain and then against, where did it come from. It certainly was not taught to them in the barbers manuals. What was taught was a series of cuts made the same way over a mans face no matter who was sitting in that chair.

A good barber who saw the same guy time after time, may have altered the cuts for effectiveness as time and experience made this possible. Just as you would do after learning an practicing with forms. However, it is certain to assume that a new customer would be shaved in a manner defined by how a barber was taught. By making a series of standard cuts.

Next rebuttle to grain is this, how do you truly follow the grain as you shave. I am guessing most people have a beard that grows all direction in a number of places. Once you covered you whole face in cream could you guess acurately at which way a hair is growing and where on the face. Maybe, but probably not accurate enough to make "with the grain" cuts. It just seems to unfeasable to me. Next how do you deal with the issue of grain in a multiple pass shave. Each time the beard is reduced, and within one pass you should be close enough to not really be able to discern a grain, the hair follicle is moved and altered.

I really beleive there has to be a better way to disect this and I thing the concept of grain is inaccurate and widely misunderstood. Try teaching some one to shave by defining grain, teaching one to find and manipulate the grain, and then teaching them how to shave properly in this manner. You are all to likely to fail. It has to be easier and more codified if you are to teach it. That is why barbers manuals had ~20 cuts all over the face. You memorize what to execute and when in a sequence that has the highest rate of sucess among the widest array of customers. That can't be wrong, and the forms are simplified and codified ways of communicating and teaching. Are they perfect? Of course not, there is always room for perfection and no one man is going to shave the same way as the next. Yet when you decide to teach it you must put in a fashion where the least common denominator will succeed time after time. I do not think that can be accomplished with a concept of grain.

[methodshaving.com]

Joe,

Stretching, well all I can tell you is I do not stretch my face. I use DE's: fixed, adjustable, or a slant or I use straight razors, both taditional and Feather style. I never stretch my skin. I will on the third form and during the T&C position and hold a small patch of skin with the tip of my finger, but I would not go so far as to say stretch. I find that when people are learning to shave having them focus on cutting so close it is highly probable that they will irritate themselves if they try to strecth an area of skin and go at it. It gives them over confidence and the reality of pressure on the blade edge is rarely understood well enough to have them execute a cut in this manner without injury.

[PoshRichM]

I am not really sure where the concept of grain originated from, as I can find no verifiable source for it not in a barbers manual no where. I do know where the forms we look at come from, a modified barbers cutting manual. [...] A good barber who saw the same guy time after time, may have altered the cuts for effectiveness as time and experience made this possible. Just as you would do after learning an practicing with forms. However, it is certain to assume that a new customer would be shaved in a manner defined by how a barber was taught. By making a series of standard cuts.Adam, as Joe mentioned, you're contradicting yourself. if there's no such thing as grain, why would anyone ever need to adjust to individual faces? You've said yourself that every person has areas of the face that are hard to shave properly using the forms. What is this phenomenon if not tricky beard grain?

Next rebuttle to grain is this, how do you truly follow the grain as you shave. I am guessing most people have a beard that grows all direction in a number of places. Once you covered you whole face in cream could you guess acurately at which way a hair is growing and where on the face.Well, by learning (through pain and bloodloss, if necessary) which places on my face tend to have the beard resist the blade more in given directions, and less in others. Pain is an excellent teacher, and the human brain is excellently wired to remember circumstances that caused pain in the past. Since this is evidently news to you as it relates to shaving, I'd suggest you're blessed with one of those faces (or beards) that is very shaveable pretty much no matter what's done by the shaver. I'd give real money (and have, come to think of it) to have anything like this level of inexperience with shaving difficulty.

I really beleive there has to be a better way to disect this and I thing the concept of grain is inaccurate and widely misunderstood. Try teaching some one to shave by defining grain, teaching one to find and manipulate the grain, and then teaching them how to shave properly in this manner. You are all to likely to fail.So the fact that shaving in certain directions on certain (asymmetric) regions of my face causes me to draw blood and irritate myself beyond belief is all in my head? :rolleyes5 My goal is to do a better job of remaining civil, here, so I'll refrain from further comment on this one.

It has to be easier and more codified if you are to teach it. That is why barbers manuals had ~20 cuts all over the face. You memorize what to execute and when in a sequence that has the highest rate of sucess among the widest array of customers.I think barbers' manuals had the 20ish cuts because they had to know a least-problematic series of cuts as a basis, and then allow practice to teach them the rest, i.e., how to gauge grain by feel or eye. The barber who gave me my Royal Shave in Las Vegas was very careful of my beard's grain, felt for it frequently, and made many comments on it while he worked.

-Rich

[HlSheppard]

Funny you guys should be talking about this...

I paid a visit to my barber this morning and we had quite a discussion about beard grain. He basically said that it's all a function of the shape of the follicles (just as on your head with 'cowlicks,' etc.)

I asked him if there was any truth to being able to "train" your beard (a recent thread over at SMF.com) and he basically dismissed that as foolishness.

He said that in his days of straight razor shaving; he would use water or shave oil to feel the grain direction of a gent's beard. After the first pass; he would again get some shave oil or water and massage the beard whilst feeling for grain.

Funny - I can't seem to convince him to offer a straight shave anymore... (yet)

[Joe Lerch]

Please see the italicized comments below.

Joe,

I think the issue of grain and idea of grain is wrong, it is one of my real pet pieves so to each there own. This is something people really take issue with but I will explain my points. I am not really sure where the concept of grain originated from, as I can find no verifiable source for it not in a barbers manual no where.

See the 1961 Barbar's Manual (available at SRP) p. 33, 5th line from the bottom. This is the first page of the shaving chapter. As you read the chapter repeated mention is made of shaving with the grain.

I do know where the forms we look at come from, a modified barbers cutting manual. If you look at these manuals you will usualy find ~20 cuts that are made to reduce and finish off a shave properly. No one's beard grows the same way and each persons hair grows differently, I think we can al agree on this. So then if the old barber addage is cut with the grain and then against, where did it come from. It certainly was not taught to them in the barbers manuals. What was taught was a series of cuts made the same way over a mans face no matter who was sitting in that chair.

True, but they wrere made taking the grain into consideration.

A good barber who saw the same guy time after time, may have altered the cuts for effectiveness as time and experience made this possible. Just as you would do after learning an practicing with forms. However, it is certain to assume that a new customer would be shaved in a manner defined by how a barber was taught. By making a series of standard cuts.

Next rebuttle to grain is this, how do you truly follow the grain as you shave.

You can't exactly, but you can generally. In fact, by using dufferent forms you guarranty that you will attack the beard from different directions relative to the grain. If grain made no difference, you wouldn't need forms, but could do every pass the same way.

I am guessing most people have a beard that grows all direction in a number of places. Once you covered you whole face in cream could you guess acurately at which way a hair is growing and where on the face. Maybe, but probably not accurate enough to make "with the grain" cuts. It just seems to unfeasable to me. Next how do you deal with the issue of grain in a multiple pass shave.

One way is to do each pass from a different direction, as with your forms.

Each time the beard is reduced, and within one pass you should be close enough to not really be able to discern a grain, the hair follicle is moved and altered.

I really beleive there has to be a better way to disect this and I thing the concept of grain is inaccurate and widely misunderstood. Try teaching some one to shave by defining grain, teaching one to find and manipulate the grain, and then teaching them how to shave properly in this manner. You are all to likely to fail. It has to be easier and more codified if you are to teach it. That is why barbers manuals had ~20 cuts all over the face. You memorize what to execute and when in a sequence that has the highest rate of sucess among the widest array of customers. That can't be wrong, and the forms are simplified and codified ways of communicating and teaching. Are they perfect? Of course not, there is always room for perfection and no one man is going to shave the same way as the next. Yet when you decide to teach it you must put in a fashion where the least common denominator will succeed time after time. I do not think that can be accomplished with a concept of grain.
For teaching purposes, you're absolutely right not to bother the student with grain, but it is entirely innaccurate to even suugest that it is of no consequence when your forms are designed entirely around it.

[Joe Lerch]

Again, if you read that chapter of the Barber's Manual, they are told repeatedly to stretch the skin. When you tilt your head, contort your face etc. you are stretching the skin. You even admit that you do it. When you hold the skin and draw the razor away, you're stretching the skin. I guarantee you that you are not shaving a flaccid face. The skin must be held flat and taught, whatever you call it, in order to shave. Unless your razor is not sharp, if you allow the skin to bunch in front of the blade, you will surely cut it.

Joe,

Stretching, well all I can tell you is I do not stretch my face. I use DE's: fixed, adjustable, or a slant or I use straight razors, both taditional and Feather style. I never stretch my skin. I will on the third form and during the T&C position and hold a small patch of skin with the tip of my finger, but I would not go so far as to say stretch. I find that when people are learning to shave having them focus on cutting so close it is highly probable that they will irritate themselves if they try to strecth an area of skin and go at it. It gives them over confidence and the reality of pressure on the blade edge is rarely understood well enough to have them execute a cut in this manner without injury.

[Joe Lerch]

Rich, although we are in total agreement, you should not be bloodying your face, even if you go against the grain, as long as you're only reducing the beard. The blood only happens when you try to shave clean to the skin (against the grain) when the whiskers are still too long. Once you're down to a fine stubble, you should be able to go against the grain lightly without serious consequences. There may be exceptions. For example, it's a rare razor that will let me go counter-grain on my upper lip.

[PoshRichM]

Joe, don't worry: I was talking about my initial DE experiences, when my face was teaching me its grain. There was only a tiny amount of blood, but it was enough to teach me (as was the larger issue of irritation) where certain stroke directions worked and where they didn't. If I treated all areas alike, the blood would come right on back.

I've got one region directly under my chin and right jawline where I can't (so far) go counter-grain without consequences (and with-grain doesn't get close enough to avoid catching on collars). I've tried gradually decreasing the angle-to-grain over several passes, and basically the closer I get to against-grain, the more juddering and catching occurs. Tabac, Col. Conk, Pacific Shave Oil with Taylor's Avocado, and now my initial efforts at RMWS wet mix have all failed to give this area a trouble-free shave. It's one of my last areas where the Norelco still gives me less trouble. :mad2:

Oh, and blade-angle variation dosn't seem to make much difference either: too shallow an angle and I miss the hair, too steep and I irritate, "just right" and I ... still irritate, but the beard makes less noise as it goes.

-Rich

[methodshaving.com]

Joe and Rich,

The past few exchanges are exactly what I am talking about. Rich I have been through it and I know where you are comming from, so please take none of this personally I am going to use you as an example.

Always remember when I am talking about method shaving, rmws it is in the context that we are teaching new people who have real problems. People who can't or haven't shaved with a blade, or done so properly. That is in important thing to remember. I remember when I was learning, I read about grain and stretching and I made all the rookie mistakes. I think it is more about miscommunication than anything else. You tell a new guy to cut with the grain, across the grain against the gain. They will spend for ever, usually many months trying to cut and will have a varrying degree of success as they try to decipher the grain of thier face. That is if everyone agrees on what grain really is and how to find it on your face under a layer of cream. This is something that is not easily communicated or taught. You end up with someone like Rich teling you he learns through pain and blood loss if necesarry. We all do it to some degree as we learn. The real question is do we need to learn this way.

I think it is more effective to have people concentrate on learning to cut one form at a time. For example, I teach most new shaver and those suffering from a recent butchering to cut only form 1 once and do this for one week. You will not have a perfect shave but you will get really good at shaving little 1 inch strips. I think you can learn far more far quicker cutting like this. Don't down play the effectiveness of micro motor skill coordination and the benefit of a lot of practice in a short period. In one week of cutting form 1 only most people find, a drastic reduction in blemishes, pain, blood and a much better shave day after day.

As for stretching, the mere mention of this causes people to think of everything from a lttle pressure here and there to outright yoga style manuevers designed to do what no surgery or botox could ever accomplish. People are going to do it, as it is near instinct to touch your face and push pull skin, wiggle toungues, twist the neck, etc. All in the attempt to clean that one last lone wisker. Invariably you end up in front of a 10x mirror contorting your face untill you have little drops of blood and whitehead 1/2 a day later. Instead take the focus off stretching and focus on shaving cleanly without the need for this. It can be done. When you have the need to touch and cut a small area, focus more on slowing down the blade with a low velocity barrier and negative pressure. If you need to, and you will, touch the skin just enough to keep it in place. The focus is not on stretching it is on cutting.

[Joe Lerch]

Try something new (the JLMWS). I don't know if you've been following the thread, but a bunch of us are experimenting with using Feather blades for a str8 in an injector razor (you need to trim them).

I've had incredible results. That razor is like no other. It glides over the skin and cuts closest. You can get one of those antique Schick injectors with the brass finish and amber handle cheap. Get some Feather guarded blades and trim one in length to fit the razor. Now do your two first passes to reduce you beard as much as possible. You want only a very slight stubble.

Now use a good glycerin soap and put a thin slick coating on your face with you hands, minimum lather. Do the third counter-grain pass with the modified injector. Keep it light and you will hardly feel the razor on your face, but it is cutting. I predict you will float over the tough area with no irritation. When you're finished, feel around for the areas you missed reapply the slick coating to each area at a time and attack it with the razor lightly) from every direction). You will finish those areas and there should be no irritation if you kept your touch light. There is no reason for pressure with this razor.

Joe, don't worry: I was talking about my initial DE experiences, when my face was teaching me its grain. There was only a tiny amount of blood, but it was enough to teach me (as was the larger issue of irritation) where certain stroke directions worked and where they didn't. If I treated all areas alike, the blood would come right on back.

I've got one region directly under my chin and right jawline where I can't (so far) go counter-grain without consequences (and with-grain doesn't get close enough to avoid catching on collars). I've tried gradually decreasing the angle-to-grain over several passes, and basically the closer I get to against-grain, the more juddering and catching occurs. Tabac, Col. Conk, Pacific Shave Oil with Taylor's Avocado, and now my initial efforts at RMWS wet mix have all failed to give this area a trouble-free shave. It's one of my last areas where the Norelco still gives me less trouble. :mad2:

Oh, and blade-angle variation dosn't seem to make much difference either: too shallow an angle and I miss the hair, too steep and I irritate, "just right" and I ... still irritate, but the beard makes less noise as it goes.

-Rich

[PoshRichM]

Joe, I've actually got one of those brass-and-bakelite injectors, but haven't tried using it yet. I will have to check out the thread you mention.

Adam, I appreciate your passion and it's obvious you believe what you're saying, but you keep talking at right angles to the little that experience has taught me about shaving. It may very well be that the RMWS/Method Shaving approach would solve all my shaving problems and clear my face of all its ills, but until I accumulate the money and time to make the pilgrimage and sit down in front of Charles Roberts so he can show me what in thunder you guys are talking about, I feel that I'm doomed to fail to understand.

I will try giving Charles a call sometime this week--it's possible he'll succeed where you and I have stumbled here--but I don't hold out much hope, considering you and I can't seem to agree on something as basic as the existence of, let alone role of, beard grain.

Finally, here's a suggestion from a once-upon-a-time English major and generally verbally-aligned guy. Charles' and your choices in and use of jargon are hindering your cause. I understand that there's homework to do to understand any relatively complex system, and I feel like I've done that homework--you said yourself that I seem to have decoded the basics decently well. I maintain that there shouldn't have been any decoding to do at all.

It can be fun and useful to learn all the names for things in a system: I learned how to make beer a few years ago, and learning that the processed grain one uses to make beer is malt, the unfermented malt solution is a wort, and that rinsing the sugars out of hot-soaked malt to make wort is called sparging took some time, but was useful. It gave me a shared language with other brewers, and assigned precise names to new conditions, concepts and objects that were significantly different from other facts I knew. The terms each had reasons for being.

But using phrases like "open breech" instead of "flattened (brush) head" and ones like "low velocity barrier" instead of "thick lather" or even "steel" for "blade" do nothing to increase precision (in fact, there's real loss of verbal precision in the case of "steel"), and much to put off potential adherents. I've spent a fair amount of time learning the terminology here, and there are few if any concepts (possibly some having to do with brush anatomy) that can't be expressed as easily in more common terms.

There are good things to learn from Method Shaving. You guys have forever improved the way I use my brush to lather, for example. Pursuing greater wetness in wet shaving works. Lathering mashed-brush or "open breech" works.

But the powerful truth of this can be expressed very simply: You want a lot of water in your lather. A good shaving brush holds a lot of water in its center, thanks to the unique properties of badger hair. Mix your lather so that it's wetter that you think ought to work, and very slippery--and we have products to make this easy. If your lather mix is wet enough, you should be able to apply it with the brush mashed against your face, so that the water in the center of the brush is constantly mixing with the lather.Why make it so hard?

-Rich

[Joe Lerch]

I hear what you're saying. Sacrafices in precision and oversimplifications are often made when trying to teach something. I do it myself. How often have I urged a newbie to use no pressure on his razor? We know that can't work, but we also know that he will try to use that razor like a chisel if left to his own devices. So, the imprecise statement puts him on guard and makes him conscious of what he's doing.

Of course, that has little to do with the realities of the situation, and I think there we're in agreement. At least I understand you, and I think you understand me.

Keep up the good work!

Joe and Rich,

The past few exchanges are exactly what I am talking about. Rich I have been through it and I know where you are comming from, so please take none of this personally I am going to use you as an example.

Always remember when I am talking about method shaving, rmws it is in the context that we are teaching new people who have real problems. People who can't or haven't shaved with a blade, or done so properly. That is in important thing to remember. I remember when I was learning, I read about grain and stretching and I made all the rookie mistakes. I think it is more about miscommunication than anything else. You tell a new guy to cut with the grain, across the grain against the gain. They will spend for ever, usually many months trying to cut and will have a varrying degree of success as they try to decipher the grain of thier face. That is if everyone agrees on what grain really is and how to find it on your face under a layer of cream. This is something that is not easily communicated or taught. You end up with someone like Rich teling you he learns through pain and blood loss if necesarry. We all do it to some degree as we learn. The real question is do we need to learn this way.

I think it is more effective to have people concentrate on learning to cut one form at a time. For example, I teach most new shaver and those suffering from a recent butchering to cut only form 1 once and do this for one week. You will not have a perfect shave but you will get really good at shaving little 1 inch strips. I think you can learn far more far quicker cutting like this. Don't down play the effectiveness of micro motor skill coordination and the benefit of a lot of practice in a short period. In one week of cutting form 1 only most people find, a drastic reduction in blemishes, pain, blood and a much better shave day after day.

As for stretching, the mere mention of this causes people to think of everything from a lttle pressure here and there to outright yoga style manuevers designed to do what no surgery or botox could ever accomplish. People are going to do it, as it is near instinct to touch your face and push pull skin, wiggle toungues, twist the neck, etc. All in the attempt to clean that one last lone wisker. Invariably you end up in front of a 10x mirror contorting your face untill you have little drops of blood and whitehead 1/2 a day later. Instead take the focus off stretching and focus on shaving cleanly without the need for this. It can be done. When you have the need to touch and cut a small area, focus more on slowing down the blade with a low velocity barrier and negative pressure. If you need to, and you will, touch the skin just enough to keep it in place. The focus is not on stretching it is on cutting.

[Joe Lerch]

What I told you is definitely worth trying. In the meantime, maybe we can do something immediately about your difficult neck area. It took me a long time to arrive at a solution for my siilar problem.

I call it localized, intense stretching. Basically, go to the trouble area and use you fingers to apply a generous slick coating from the CR block. Now, stretch it flat and taught between your thumb and index finger. Stretch it more than you think is necessary. Bring your razor into the area and float it over the whiskers, using just enough pressure to cut them gently with a grazing cut (you won't remove them with any one cut, but you should hear them being cut). Slicing by moving on an angle to the blade edge makes it even easier. With the stretching this should not be irritating that skin. Somehow, a good stretch prevents the irritation, as long as you'e not pressing too hard. You can go over this area from every direction except maybe directly against the grain. So, gently cut down the whiskers. When they get short enough you may even be able to graze over them directly against the grain. You may not be able to achieve perfection this way until you use the modified injector, but I think you'll be able to remove enough to eliminate the collar discomfort.

Joe, I've actually got one of those brass-and-bakelite injectors, but haven't tried using it yet. I will have to check out the thread you mention.

Adam, I appreciate your passion and it's obvious you believe what you're saying, but you keep talking at right angles to the little that experience has taught me about shaving. It may very well be that the RMWS/Method Shaving approach would solve all my shaving problems and clear my face of all its ills, but until I accumulate the money and time to make the pilgrimage and sit down in front of Charles Roberts so he can show me what in thunder you guys are talking about, I feel that I'm doomed to fail to understand.

I will try giving Charles a call sometime this week--it's possible he'll succeed where you and I have stumbled here--but I don't hold out much hope, considering you and I can't seem to agree on something as basic as the existence of, let alone role of, beard grain.

Finally, here's a suggestion from a once-upon-a-time English major and generally verbally-aligned guy. Charles' and your choices in and use of jargon are hindering your cause. I understand that there's homework to do to understand any relatively complex system, and I feel like I've done that homework--you said yourself that I seem to have decoded the basics decently well. I maintain that there shouldn't have been any decoding to do at all.

It can be fun and useful to learn all the names for things in a system: I learned how to make beer a few years ago, and learning that the processed grain one uses to make beer is malt, the unfermented malt solution is a wort, and that rinsing the sugars out of hot-soaked malt to make wort is called sparging took some time, but was useful. It gave me a shared language with other brewers, and assigned precise names to new conditions, concepts and objects that were significantly different from other facts I knew. The terms each had reasons for being.

But using phrases like "open breech" instead of "flattened (brush) head" and ones like "low velocity barrier" instead of "thick lather" or even "steel" for "blade" do nothing to increase precision (in fact, there's real loss of verbal precision in the case of "steel"), and much to put off potential adherents. I've spent a fair amount of time learning the terminology here, and there are few if any concepts (possibly some having to do with brush anatomy) that can't be expressed as easily in more common terms.

There are good things to learn from Method Shaving. You guys have forever improved the way I use my brush to lather, for example. Pursuing greater wetness in wet shaving works. Lathering mashed-brush or "open breech" works.

But the powerful truth of this can be expressed very simply: Why make it so hard?

-Rich

[Brett G]

Sorry for the late arrival. Access to a computer was limited the last few days.

When Method Shavers say to ignore the grain (ie. the direction in which the hair grows) we are talking about it from a practical standpoint. The grain of the beard is something that the shaver does not have to worry about when he is standing at his sink. Particularly during the reduction phase of the shave. If you look at it (warning: corporate jargon alert) from a 10,000 ft level, then the direction of hair growth is taken into account. The reason why Form 1 works the way it does is because the beard grows predominantely down on the overwhelming majority of men. The reason why Form 3 shaves closer is due to this same reason. The reason why Form 3 comes last is because the blade is much less likely to snag and trench when the hairs are shorter. Don't get hung up on which way your beard grows until it has been reduced to almost nothing. And then only if you need to.

As for skin stretching, I probably do it more than most exprienced MS guys. That being said, skin tenion is a tool that can be manipulated throughout the shave. Use little to none when reducing (particularly on Forms 1&2), use only as much as you need to finish. The method you use to generate the tension is irrelevant. Do facial yoga, use your free hand, whatever works.

I don't think using str8 razors as an example is an apples to apples comparison. I have no experience with a straight razor so I'm going to be very careful about saying this, it seems that str8s may require more tension than the DE. My guess would be that it has to do with the size of the blade and the safety bar on the DE. Str8s have a larger, thicker blade (although with some of the new sharpening techniques out there maybe not) and will float over tense skin with relative ease. The DE has a much thinner, sharper blade and is more likely to trench. Also, the safety bar in front of the blade will actually do some of the stretching for you.

I have dealt with neck irritation in exactly the opposite way that Joe has. I used to chew my neck apart because I stretched the heck out of it. My first pass is done with zero skin tension. Second pass is done with just a little. I may go back an pick up stragglers with a bit more but am very cautious.

We realize that we are trying to create a vocabulary that is unique to wet shaving. It is still in it's infant stages. Take all of the terminology out and I think the new Method Shaver needs to understand only one thing: The biggest difference between MS and Traditional is the order in which things are tended to. Most wet shavers are concerned with the wrong things at the wrong time. Don't worry about grain until you get to the finishing pass. Then you can go back and touch up any difficult areas (we all have them). Don't try to shave skin close until the finishing pass. Don't put too thick of a barrier on your skin until the finishing pass, it only makes your hair harder to cut.

Making mixes, cutting forms, utilizing J-strokes, all of that stuff is academic if you don't understand the overall concept of how it works.

[Joe Lerch]

Thanks Bret (fellow New Jersey-ite). You message just confirmed what I have come to understand from the couple of go-arounds with Adam. I'm with you guys 100%. The newbie shouldn't have to worry about why things work when he's just starting out and you're approach handles thaat well (assuming you will clear up the writing issues).

In studying the barber's manual for my response Adam, I discovered that most men's beards reverse grain on the neck (below the jaw). The barber is taught to shave this area up unless he sees the customer's beard is reversed. Of course, the barber is trying to get a good shave in one pass.

The principal of beard thinning is something I discovered for myself about 1-15 years ago and I have been using it ever since. As I pointed out in one of my posts, if that is what you're doing, grain shouldn't matter. However when you get past that, it does, and the student must be made aware of it. For example, in all the years I have found only two razor/blade ombinations that let me go counter-grain in the mustache area. even srt8s don't. If I didn't know about grain, I would happily try to shave that area totally clean and end up butchering myself (don't think it hasn't happened).

I think we totally agree on the issue of stretching. I find it interesting that you do exactly the opposite on the neck. I have a extremely sensitive skin and the neck area is the worst of all. For some reason, the loose skin caused more friction and made it impossible to get all the whiskers. Through experimentation I found that by localizing the stretching right where I was cutting and forcing the skin taught and flat I was able to get all those whisker with one or two passes using the lightest touch, and there was no irritation. I would think if it worked for my skin it would work for anyone's.

What I told you is definitely worth trying. In the meantime, maybe we can do something immediately about your difficult neck area. It took me a long time to arrive at a solution for my siilar problem.

I call it localized, intense stretching. Basically, go to the trouble area and use you fingers to apply a generous slick coating from the CR block. Now, stretch it flat and taught between your thumb and index finger. Stretch it more than you think is necessary. Bring your razor into the area and float it over the whiskers, using just enough pressure to cut them gently with a grazing cut (you won't remove them with any one cut, but you should hear them being cut). Slicing by moving on an angle to the blade edge makes it even easier. With the stretching this should not be irritating that skin. Somehow, a good stretch prevents the irritation, as long as you'e not pressing too hard. You can go over this area from every direction except maybe directly against the grain. So, gently cut down the whiskers. When they get short enough you may even be able to graze over them directly against the grain. You may not be able to achieve perfection this way until you use the modified injector, but I think you'll be able to remove enough to eliminate the collar discomfort.

[Shogun]

Look at it this way guys. For some people and faces stretching works and for some it doesn't or provides no real benefit. The benefit of stretching is going to rely on the angle of the hair incident to the skin surface that it grows out, the thickness of the hair, how old you are, etc. Let's be honest, if you have skin bunching when you shave (even in unnoticeable amounts) it is going to be exacerbated by looser skin due to aging and the amount of fat under the skin. Young guys that have low body fat levels in their face are going to have naturally taut skin although it will vary somewhat from peson to person. By the same token, as you age, your beard hair will probably thicken and get coarser and it might want a little encouraging to stand up for easier cutting. The mere act of rasing the jaw to get a better look and access to your cutting on the neck and jaw alone tightens the skin more than the head's natural position.

I think the main point Adam is trying to get across is that skin stretching is not usually necessary with proper reduction. However, it may take more passes than would be reasonable time-wise in some cases. Skin stretching can shorten that by allowing more beard to be removed from an area in a single pass but by the same token increases the risks associated with aggressively removing a lot of beard close to the skin (irritation and bleeding). An experienced shaver familiar with his face will be able to avoid these problems. For a new shaver though, this is another piece of the equation that can lead to mistakes easily if used improperly. When we talk about everyone tweaking methodshaving to suit their faces, this is something that is a nuance, not a rule. Not everyone will need stretching, just like not everyone will need the same number of passes to get a great shave.

[Joe Lerch]

I don't think we're saying anything different. Adam is just taking a very narrow definitio of stretchin and I'm taking a broad one. By my definition, anything you do to keep the skin from being flaccid while you're shaving it is stretching. You can reduce the beard without stretching, but as soon as you get near the skin you must dosome form of stretching. I'm willing to bet you all do. If you were shaving someone else (i.e.you can't contort your face etc.) it would be obvious. That's why the barber's manual mentions it over and over. That manual is not a recent innovation like RMWS, but a compilstion of centuries of practice and the wisdom acquired. We shouldn't sell it short.

Especially with str8 shaving, if you don't stretch you will form gashes on your face. A keen str8 will even cut small blemishes. Safety razors are more forgiving, but not entirely. I'll grant you that if you set an adjustable way down you may be able to get awa with anything, but that doesn't make for a very good shave.

Look at it this way guys. For some people and faces stretching works and for some it doesn't or provides no real benefit. The benefit of stretching is going to rely on the angle of the hair incident to the skin surface that it grows out, the thickness of the hair, how old you are, etc. Let's be honest, if you have skin bunching when you shave (even in unnoticeable amounts) it is going to be exacerbated by looser skin due to aging and the amount of fat under the skin. Young guys that have low body fat levels in their face are going to have naturally taut skin although it will vary somewhat from peson to person. By the same token, as you age, your beard hair will probably thicken and get coarser and it might want a little encouraging to stand up for easier cutting. The mere act of rasing the jaw to get a better look and access to your cutting on the neck and jaw alone tightens the skin more than the head's natural position.

I think the main point Adam is trying to get across is that skin stretching is not usually necessary with proper reduction. However, it may take more passes than would be reasonable time-wise in some cases. Skin stretching can shorten that by allowing more beard to be removed from an area in a single pass but by the same token increases the risks associated with aggressively removing a lot of beard close to the skin (irritation and bleeding). An experienced shaver familiar with his face will be able to avoid these problems. For a new shaver though, this is another piece of the equation that can lead to mistakes easily if used improperly. When we talk about everyone tweaking methodshaving to suit their faces, this is something that is a nuance, not a rule. Not everyone will need stretching, just like not everyone will need the same number of passes to get a great shave.

[Joe Lerch]

Adam and Brett:

After doing the method shaving stuff for almost a week now, I'd like to offer some observations.

I like the cube, but using it is a royal mess. It requires more work than cream, but I have no problem loading up the brush (an SMF brush, eventually I'll also try my BK8) and keeping it charged and refreshed. But it drips all over the place and adds to the mess. I've never had such a mess and never taken so long to clean up. There has to be a way to do this with a bowl. Mixing in a little of my regular creams thickened up the mix a bit.

The hydrolast paste is very slick when you apply it directly to the face (what I was doing), but it doesn't have a noticeable effect when you mix it with the cube.

I have been cutting three of my own forms for many years. They're not so different from the RMWS forms. Mine are down, across and up. What difference would it make if I angled the across down and the up forward? What is so special about the RMWS forms that I should change? Why would they make a difference? If there is a theory behind those forms, please tell us about it.

I have also been using a reduction approach for a long time. By the time I get to the third pass, I'm down to the skin and working with a fine stubble. That's when I have to start worrying about irritation. I have extremely sensitive skin. I have always avoided shaving oil because I believe that it makes the whiskers slippery and difficult to cut. What I learned from the RMWS is that when I get to the third pass that's no longer true. Your discussion about low velocity for the last pass led me to apply shaving oil at that point. The result was incredible. I have never shaved so close so easily and totally free of irritation. If I learned nothing more from method shaving, this would make my little venture worthwhile. I get around in the forums and I intend to spread the word.

The aftershave balm was also a great addition that I intend to keep. I have never found one that had such a profound effect on my skin.

[Shogun]

Joe,

I entirely agree with what you said about stretching to some degree or another. I believe I said that in my post although it was fairly obtuse. When I said it provided no benefit to some, I was speaking of the more intense stretching that some people use. I personally do not need to do that to cut totally smooth but I don't doubt that it works.

As far as the forms go I would say they fall under the same idea as a lot of the stuff Charles has written. It is for new and/or problem shavers primarily. When he says grain doesn't matter and points to the forms, it only logically follows that you could in theory shave in any direction whenever you like since grain does not matter. It just so happens that a huge majority of people benefit from doing roughly the same thing. Theoretically we could all shave randomly in pattern but consistently everyday and the face would adapt if care was taken to do it slowly, but why make thing sharder than they are? Of course, the day we meet the guy whose hair all grows upward on his face will surely test that theory. :biggrin: For someone who does not know what they are doing, it is best to make things as simple as possible initially and having a set way of doing it without variation achieves that. I would also posit that if you had happened to shave the forms Charles way on your own they would work just as well after practice as what you do now. The same would hold true if I shaved my forms your way for a long period of time.

Method shaving is an attempt to be rational and scientific to some degree in the approach to shaving. This makes it seem rigorous and uncompromising sometimes but people often forget that empirical evidence is still valid ad a very real part of its evolution.

[Joe Lerch]

As you'll appreciate from some of my earlier posts in this thread, I appreciate the need for simplicity in teaching complex skills.

The barbers are very conscious of grain and stretching because they basically try to get the shave done in one pass, according to the manual. Sometimes they did more, but when your livelihood depends on it you learn to be efficient and effective. The big difference is that we use reduction, so grain is not as critical at the tme you're completing the shave. It could also reduce the need for stretching.

Joe,

I entirely agree with what you said about stretching to some degree or another. I believe I said that in my post although it was fairly obtuse. When I said it provided no benefit to some, I was speaking of the more intense stretching that some people use. I personally do not need to do that to cut totally smooth but I don't doubt that it works.

As far as the forms go I would say they fall under the same idea as a lot of the stuff Charles has written. It is for new and/or problem shavers primarily. When he says grain doesn't matter and points to the forms, it only logically follows that you could in theory shave in any direction whenever you like since grain does not matter. It just so happens that a huge majority of people benefit from doing roughly the same thing. Theoretically we could all shave randomly in pattern but consistently everyday and the face would adapt if care was taken to do it slowly, but why make thing sharder than they are? Of course, the day we meet the guy whose hair all grows upward on his face will surely test that theory. :biggrin: For someone who does not know what they are doing, it is best to make things as simple as possible initially and having a set way of doing it without variation achieves that. I would also posit that if you had happened to shave the forms Charles way on your own they would work just as well after practice as what you do now. The same would hold true if I shaved my forms your way for a long period of time.

Method shaving is an attempt to be rational and scientific to some degree in the approach to shaving. This makes it seem rigorous and uncompromising sometimes but people often forget that empirical evidence is still valid ad a very real part of its evolution.

[methodshaving.com]

Joe,

Glad to see things are working out and you are aware of why this methodololgy works and that the products are high quality and high value. As for the the mess, well there are people that use a bowl just not myself. I also think when it comes to learning that is yet another variable that does not need to enter into the equation.

Your question on forms is a good one and leads me to the next major point. Method Shaving is really designed for beginners or people who are just not getting it right. It puts on the emphasis on the right places and removes as many variables as possible. You on the other hand are a very experienced shaver, and to go back and work through the forms is ridiculous for you. Different story when you have no clue and you face is bloody, irritated and just plain hurts. That is when you put the emphasis on learning to cut and not on grain, etc.

As for the barber stuff, it is not to be tossed aside but there is a huge difference and you mentioned it. Barbers were being to taught to shave others, and to do so in a manner that would allow them the maximum amount of patrons to to be shaved in a day. We are teaching people to shave themselves in a manner that will eliminate irritation, ingrowns, blood, etc.

I have had a number of barber shaves, some good, many bad and two great ones. The one thing that is consistent is how much beard they shave in any one pass, and the associated irritation with almost all of my shave, save one or two.

So in conclusion, spread the word.... We are not a bunch of wild eyes lunatics hocking assinine products and teaching people to do only what we say.

[Joe Lerch]

Thanks for the response.

The only thing that caught my eye was your comment about barber shaves. My understanding is that they were taught to give a comfortable shave despite the one pass tendency. I have had quite a few in my time and I can think of only one where ther was any irritation. That barber was pretty young. The old timers are real pros.

I notice you mentioned you use the Merkur slant. What blades do you use? That razor became one of my favorites and the absolutely best shaver, after I started using Feather platinum blades. They totally transform that razor. It goes from being harsh to incredibly smooth, and the sharpness is unbelieveable. I like to use it for clean up and sometimes my last pass, even when I use a str8. Of course I can't imagine you recommending it to your students because that combination can do al ot of damage in unskilled hands.

Joe,

Glad to see things are working out and you are aware of why this methodololgy works and that the products are high quality and high value. As for the the mess, well there are people that use a bowl just not myself. I also think when it comes to learning that is yet another variable that does not need to enter into the equation.

Your question on forms is a good one and leads me to the next major point. Method Shaving is really designed for beginners or people who are just not getting it right. It puts on the emphasis on the right places and removes as many variables as possible. You on the other hand are a very experienced shaver, and to go back and work through the forms is ridiculous for you. Different story when you have no clue and you face is bloody, irritated and just plain hurts. That is when you put the emphasis on learning to cut and not on grain, etc.

As for the barber stuff, it is not to be tossed aside but there is a huge difference and you mentioned it. Barbers were being to taught to shave others, and to do so in a manner that would allow them the maximum amount of patrons to to be shaved in a day. We are teaching people to shave themselves in a manner that will eliminate irritation, ingrowns, blood, etc.

I have had a number of barber shaves, some good, many bad and two great ones. The one thing that is consistent is how much beard they shave in any one pass, and the associated irritation with almost all of my shave, save one or two.

So in conclusion, spread the word.... We are not a bunch of wild eyes lunatics hocking assinine products and teaching people to do only what we say.

[blueasajewel]

Adam and Brett:

After doing the method shaving stuff for almost a week now, I'd like to offer some observations.

I like the cube, but using it is a royal mess. It requires more work than cream, but I have no problem loading up the brush (an SMF brush, eventually I'll also try my BK8) and keeping it charged and refreshed. But it drips all over the place and adds to the mess. I've never had such a mess and never taken so long to clean up. There has to be a way to do this with a bowl. Mixing in a little of my regular creams thickened up the mix a bit.

The hydrolast paste is very slick when you apply it directly to the face (what I was doing), but it doesn't have a noticeable effect when you mix it with the cube.

I have been cutting three of my own forms for many years. They're not so different from the RMWS forms. Mine are down, across and up. What difference would it make if I angled the across down and the up forward? What is so special about the RMWS forms that I should change? Why would they make a difference? If there is a theory behind those forms, please tell us about it.

I have also been using a reduction approach for a long time. By the time I get to the third pass, I'm down to the skin and working with a fine stubble. That's when I have to start worrying about irritation. I have extremely sensitive skin. I have always avoided shaving oil because I believe that it makes the whiskers slippery and difficult to cut. What I learned from the RMWS is that when I get to the third pass that's no longer true. Your discussion about low velocity for the last pass led me to apply shaving oil at that point. The result was incredible. I have never shaved so close so easily and totally free of irritation. If I learned nothing more from method shaving, this would make my little venture worthwhile. I get around in the forums and I intend to spread the word.

The aftershave balm was also a great addition that I intend to keep. I have never found one that had such a profound effect on my skin.

Joe,

I have found many of the same results as you have.

The Cube is a big mess, and clean up is a PITA - but man the results are simply outstanding. I did try mixing the whole mess in a bowl, but for some reason I get better results when mixing directly on my face - I have some sort of block against mixing it in my hand, so I have not tried this.

I also use the same "forms" as you do, and tried the RMWS forms, but got better results using my original progression of reduction - so this is what I use. I think the RMWS provide a guidance or framework for someone starting to shave. I have found that since I have started shaving with a DE I know my face - my forms are set up around this knowledge.

I use my Feather str8 for the reduction and either my Merkur HD, Progress or Slant w/Feather blades for the balance of the clean up. So far the Feather str8/Progress combo seems to work best for me.

The Cutting Balm is outstanding, and sets up an excellent basis for the final S/N pass and the T&C.

Also agree with you on the A/S balm. My shaves have never been closer, nor has my skin looked better.

One question - does one apply the Hydrolast Paste prior to each reduction pass when cutting form 1? - I just apply the first time and don't use it again.

I've also tried experimenting with splitting up the "front-end" products i.e the Cube, Hydrolast Paste from the "back end" products i.e Cutting Balm, A/S Cream and Hydrosol.

I subbed some English cream for the "front end" and kept the "back end" and vice versa - subbed the "back end" for some PSO & Coral Skin Food - got a very good shave in both instances - but not nearly as good as when using the complete system.

[Brett G]

Joe,
Good question about the theory behind the forms. I always thought the forms need to be examined on a deeper level. I plan to write an article about this sometime in the next few months. It will include information from my own notes as well as from conversations with Charles and some of the other experienced Method Shavers out there.

Blue,
When you say you only apply HydroLast once I assume that means you lay the mix on your terrain, cut Form 1, and then cut everything else with naked strokes (no additional mix)? You can do that, it just greatly reduces your margin for error and makes velocity management difficult to impossible. Some MS guys say no naked strokes of any kind until the finish/blade buff/touch&cut stage. I will use them sparingly when cutting Form 3. At any rate, it is definitely good practice to reapply mix before each pass. Especially early in the shave.

All,
Using the right brush goes a long way towards reducing the mess. My SMF brush with the Cube/HydroLast combo is much messier than with either the ShaveMaster or my Simpsons. For reasons mentioned in another post (In the Beginning...) the SMF brush (and those of similar construction) throw mix when used in MS fasion. Experience also helps. I used to lose a lot of mix no matter what brush I used. Now I consider it a matter of pride. One of the ways I rate a shave is how well I controlled my mix.

[blueasajewel]

... it is definitely good practice to reapply mix before each pass. Especially early in the shave.

Thanks Brett - I'll try that - I see the rationale, although I can't imagine the shaves getting any better :smile:

[madmax]

SMF brush just did not cut it for me. I know Bernd is a wonderful fellow but I like my lightballs to light a room, not a brush. Barbers do not know wet but they could learn a thing or two from Enchante's A/S cream.

Max

[Joe Lerch]

Don't be such a wiseass! You'd do well to learn something from guys like Bernd. As for barbers, centuries of their accomplishments have been borrowed my method shaving. CR deserves a lot of credit for what he's, but it certainly doesn't warrant your arrogance.


SMF brush just did not cut it for me. I know Bernd is a wonderful fellow but I like my lightballs to light a room, not a brush. Barbers do not know wet but they could learn a thing or two from Enchante's A/S cream.

Max

[rtaylor61]

Joe,

I don't think Max was bing a wiseass, just stating his opinion, and doing so with a bit of levity. Personally, I love the SMF brush, but I find it very different from my Saville Row 241, which I also love. I enjoy shaving with both, but they are very different. If Max does not like it, no harm, no foul.

Randy

[Joe Lerch]

I didn't say anything about the brush. I wouldn't criticize his opinin about the brush.

Joe,

I don't think Max was bing a wiseass, just stating his opinion, and doing so with a bit of levity. Personally, I love the SMF brush, but I find it very different from my Saville Row 241, which I also love. I enjoy shaving with both, but they are very different. If Max does not like it, no harm, no foul.

Randy

[HlSheppard]

I don't get it then...