A Quick TGN Knot Comparison

[fidjit]

So I've now got a small variety of Tony's TGN knots so thought I'd do a quick comparison that might help a few of the restorers ( and a quick way to show off my "stable" :001_tt2: )

All 20mm set at approx 43-45mm loft ( guess what my favourite size knot and loft is :001_tt2: )

Note: I am 100% face latherer and most of the time with shavesticks.

UK Super Fan ( Mammoth ) |Super Fan ( Simms ) |Finest Fan ( Fuller ) |Finest Bulb( Kent KS7) |Silvertip Bulb ( Everrready 200 )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/limbot/TGN%20Knot%20Comparison/P1010168sm.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/limbot/TGN%20Knot%20Comparison/P1010167sm.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/limbot/TGN%20Knot%20Comparison/P1010172sm.jpg

Extra stuffed
The Super, Finest Bulb and Silvertip are all marked as extra stuffed.

Knot Size
With all the Chinese knots, the knot just above the yellow plastic holder is about 2-3mms wide than the holder. So an advertised 20mm knot has a bulge above it about 22-23mm. You need to allow for this when sizing up your knot. So for a 22mm knot hole you're probably best to go with a 20mm knot. The UK knot 20mm is 17mm on the bottom and gently tapers quickly to 20mm. This will fit into a 20mm hole.
I'd be using the UK brushes in a brush where you can't or don't want to have to change the knot hole size (width ) or don't want to go down a knot size .

Softness
Probably subjective a bit but my grading would be :
Super | Finest| UK Super | Silvertip.
The difference between the first 3 is minimal and I might well be imagining it. The Silvertip is scritchy. Not a bad thing but certainly worth noting.

Bloom/Density
The Finest fan appears to bloom slightly bigger than the other knots (because it's not extra stuffed ? Or maybe the knot hole is slightly bigger than the rest. I'm not good at methodical measurements etc? )
There is no issue at all with the density of any of these knots ( at least at this size and loft )
It's interesting to note that the UK super has the same density as the bigger extra stuffed knots even though it has nowhere near the amount of bloom. I think this is because you're putting a 20mm knot into a 20mm hole which tightens the bristled compared with putting a 20mm knot into a 22mm hole with extra hair. Pretty much equal I'd say.

Conclusion?
In my humble opinion, the Finest Knots are the best value for money in terms of softness, backbone etc.. The Super is slightly softer and maybe a bit less backbone than the Finest ( same price as the Grade A too ) The UK Super wasn't the "WOW" knot I hoped it would be ( famous UK manufacturer, hand tied etc ) and hopefully will soften up a bit, but at this stage ( and because of the price "premium" ) I'd only be using in situations where you can't/won't change your knot hole width and don't want to go down a size of knot ( e.g. 20mm hole to 18mm knot ) The Silvertip...too scritchy for me .

In the end the Super, Finest and UK Super all put a nice lather on the face and feel good and to me that's probably the important thing :lol:

Really shouldn't overanalyse this stuff but then again this post shows that I do :blushing:

Glaring ommission here is the Silvertip Grade A. I've sworn off brush restores ( again ), so who knows maybe there'll be an addendum to this or maybe there won't .... :wink2:

And of course the standard B&B disclaimer..... YMMV !!!!!

[Alacrity59]

Thank you for the great review of the TGN knots. I've been imagineering a brush I want to build from scratch and need to decide on a knot.

[ssultan]

Ian...excellent job with the restores! You really owe it to yourself to try the Grade A!!! The finest and the Grade A are the two knots I ended up using the most...and then gave the Finest to my uncle and kept the Grade A for myself...it's a lovely knot :)

One last restore can't hurt :)

[ROCKET56]

+1 I agree with your softness and value scale.You can trim down your
knot base a bit to fit the holes with out drilling them out.
The price of vintage handles on the bay is getting out of hand ,It is
cheaper for me to turn a custom handle that is high quality and solid and not hollow.You also know what you are getting.
I also use the Blankety Blank Knots and the are good but seem not get any respect or play on this site.I often wonder why that is?
Cheers Rocket

[fidjit]

I also use the Blankety Blank Knots and the are good but seem not get any respect or play on this site.I often wonder why that is?
Cheers Rocket

I sent an email to Blankity Blank after reading they were maybe better quality than the TGNs asking for the loft of their knots and the cost of shipping to Oz.

After 5 days, I hadn't heard anything.

I resent the message and got a message back saying that they'd get back to me that day.......another 9 days later and they never have.

Tony on the other hands offers great service and is quick to reply even to the silliest questions :001_tt2:

In this time I've ordered, received and installed the knots from TGN.

I know where my business is going !!! :wink2:

[Legion]

Thanks mate. I'm going to be starting on my first restores in the next week or two and that was incredibly helpful. :thumbup1:

[torero]

i sent an email to blankity blank after reading they were maybe better quality than the tgns asking for the loft of their knots and the cost of shipping to oz.

After 5 days, i hadn't heard anything.

I resent the message and got a message back saying that they'd get back to me that day.......another 9 days later and they never have.

Tony on the other hands offers great service and is quick to reply even to the silliest questions :001_tt2:

In this time i've ordered, received and installed the knots from tgn.

I know where my business is going !!! :wink2:

+1

[SliceOfLife]

Beautiful brushes. I need to find where you get your vintage handles.

[fidjit]

Beautiful brushes. I need to find where you get your vintage handles.

Down here the only real option is Ebay. Trouble is shipping from overseas ( there's not that many brushes in Australia, let alone Tasmania ) can easily be twice the actually cost of the brush or more :001_unsur

I'm a tight-ar$e and only put in "stoopid" bids on most of the handles I like, but I'm more interested in colour and shape than anything else and willing to pay a bit more for those I really like.

Don't bid on any butterscotches anymore because some silly bugger has driven the prices up way beyond my "stoopid" bids. :001_tt2:

[Legion]

Don't bid on any butterscotches anymore because some silly bugger has driven the prices up way beyond my "stoopid" bids. :001_tt2:

Yes... I've noticed that. Wonder how that happened? :wink2: I have yet to reach far enough into my pockets to get one of those. I almost did... a couple of nights ago I got up at 3:30am because there was one on the 'bay I REALLY wanted and was prepared to pay for. Long story short, I got distracted and missed putting my bid on by about three seconds. I wonder if my cursing woke the neighbours? The hunt continues...

[baggiez]

Yes... I've noticed that. Wonder how that happened? :wink2: I have yet to reach far enough into my pockets to get one of those. I almost did... a couple of nights ago I got up at 3:30am because there was one on the 'bay I REALLY wanted and was prepared to pay for. Long story short, I got distracted and missed putting my bid on by about three seconds. I wonder if my cursing woke the neighbours? The hunt continues...

Being in a different time zone is a pain and I used to get up at all hours until I discovered auction sniper. Now I just wake up in the am and find out whether I need to pay for anything :001_smile

[fidjit]

Being in a different time zone is a pain and I used to get up at all hours until I discovered auction sniper. Now I just wake up in the am and find out whether I need to pay for anything :001_smile

Yep, pretty much use Auctionsniper for all my bids as well whether local or not. Has the advantage of not showing your hand and starting a bidding war.

When I see an auction I'm interested in, work out my max bid, put it into a snipe and then just wait.

It has the advantage of not showing your hand and starting a bidding war AND it means that I don't get involved in bidding wars as normally I forget about the auction :closedeye

There's still no guarantee you'll win if someone is willing to pay more though !!!

[thunderball]

Great comparison, very helpful. :thumbup1:

[wilsondude]

Thanks for the helpful post! I have that same EverReady 200 that I got from my dad-in-law and just finished drilling it out. I measured the hole at 24mm, and was wondering what size you ordered to fit yours.

[Rusty Jackknife]

Thanks for the info! I posted a couple of days back wondering about the 24 mm UK knot. I took everyone's advice and went with the 22 mm Finest.

I am ordering a custom brush from Bob Quinn at Elite Razor.

http://www.eliterazor.com/

RJ

[fidjit]

Thanks for the helpful post! I have that same EverReady 200 that I got from my dad-in-law and just finished drilling it out. I measured the hole at 24mm, and was wondering what size you ordered to fit yours.

Heya,

I used a 20mm Finest and it's set at about 45mm. I had to drill out the shelf and make a new one to get that loft.

Might be some useful info here:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=118240

[honed]

THANKS!

This comes very handy, I've just recently got bitten by the brush-restore bug.

[fidjit]

Oh and just so I can add the missing link........

Got a 20mm Silvertip Grade A on it's way.....

It's going into this handle, a vintage Kent Butterscotch ( eventually....damned volcanic ash :tongue_sm)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/limbot/Kent%20V8/vintage_shaving_brush_230309.jpg

So after this one, I've got all the different knots I want, so I'm swearing off brush restores......( again :tongue_sm)

[Sibby]

So after this one, I've got all the different knots I want, so I'm swearing off brush restores......( again :tongue_sm)



I like the brushes and you make them look really nice.

Good work !

[honed]

But this makes me wonder about the silvertips quality.
It says that ALL silvertip knots are handtied & not trimmed, then they shouldn't be scritchy.
ANd it's not only you who've written about that the finest & super are the best knots.
It shouldn't really be that way, should it?
Anyway, so far my personal favorite is the Finest extra stuffed. Really great knot!

[jss]

Very nicely done sir..This sure helped me with TGN offerings....


Best regards,

[fidjit]

The final chapter..the missing link.....: :biggrin1:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/limbot/Brushes%2011%20May%202010/P1040930distort.jpg

The very dark Butterscotch Kent on the far right has the 20mm Silvertip Grade A ( pretend the Vintage Vulfix Hyde Park with original Boar and Omega 21047 with mixed bristle ( 3 and 4 ) don't exist in the photo since this is a restore thread :tongue_sm )

Because I didn't want to do too much to this very vintage handle, the knot was put about 2-3 mm higher ( 48-49mm ) than I normally would and you can see the difference in bloom compared to my other restores set at around 43-45 mm. If I O-ring it to the same loft , the bloom looks pretty much the same as the other knots.

So , the Silvertip Grade A is another nice knot. The bristles themselves are definitley not as stiff as say the finest. Softer and floppier when fullly loaded with water.

Face lathered with it this morning and even at the higher loft not a problem in the world. Bigger bloom ( because of higher loft ) than I'm used to but still enough backbone for me.

So in conclusion IMHO, if you gave me a blind test with the same handle with the Finest, Super and Silvertip Grade A set at the same loft I think I'd be pretty hard pressed to be able tell them apart. They each have some minor and subtle differences in terms of bristle and tip quality but again not enough for me to really tell.

If you want a floppier knot go the Silvertip grade A
If you want a not so floppy but firmer go the Super
If you want a firmer go the Finest.
If you want a scritchier brush the Silvertip is the way to go.

Again stressing...to me the difference is minor ( except in the case of the noticeably scritchier Silvertip ) . I really love all the top three and they do their job of feeling nice and putting lather on me face.

I'm still finding it hard to work out where the UK Super fits in , again with the premium I'd only be using were you really want a x cm knot in a x cm knot hole. It may soften up with usage but it's stiffer and scritchier than the others "out of the box" though definitely not as scritchy as the Silvertip.

Any of these make an excellent restore.

Maybe one day I'll be able to amend this with a comparison with a high end manufacturers brush but since one top ender would probably cost me as much as half my current stable...don't hold your breath.

Hope this helps !!! :biggrin1:

( Oh and standard disclaimer YMMV :tongue_sm)

[echelon3]

Thanks for this, Ian, and for the other "reviews" also.
This informative series enabled me to build my perfect brush, a 22mm finest set at a high (57mm) loft.
Absolute heaven, thank you very much.:thumbup1:

[bythbook]

Ian, thank you - very nicely done.

I'm having great fun with restorations - how high one sets the loft makes such a difference! In my first butterscotch restoration I set the most expensive TGN knot (hand-tied English) too damned high - and I have an unfortunately floppy brush as a result. But I've learned....

I enjoy using my restorations and the old brushes with original hair fully as much as I enjoy my high-end new brushes... it's all good, isn't it?

[jwhiskercut]

Thanks for taking the time to review all of the knots in such detail! I'm sitting on 12 or so brushes that I plan on restoring, but I didn't know what type of know I was going to put in them. This was a big help!

[SjhC]

Thanks very much for the time and effort spent on this post. I'm considering my first restore, and every time I read something like this, I get excited again.
Great pics, great report, great post.
Thanks again,
Scott
(SjhC)

[fidjit]

Quick Addendum here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/limbot/TGN%20Knot%20Comparison/TGNRanking.jpg

YMMV !!! :lol:

( There's also a copy of the quick ref chart above ( pricing is still current ) and this ranking next to each other in my wiki page ( see sig ) )

Hope this helps :001_smile

[SliceOfLife]

Here's my impression after about 20 TGN knots.

Softness: (Worst to best)

Black / UK Black / (Speculate Pure) / Finest / Best / (Speculate Super) / UK Super / Silvertip / Grade A / Short Loft Silvertip / UK Silvertip / Synthetic Badger


Individual hair spine (backbone without density... usually also causes prickliness): (Most to least)

UK Black / Black / (Speculate Pure) / Best / Finest / Short loft Silvertip / Grade A / (Speculate Super) / UK Super / Uk Silvertip / Synth Badger (No backbone for first 1/4 of hairs, then lots)

Density: (Most to least)

UK Super / Short loft Silvertip / Xtra stuffed Finest / Synth badger / Grade A / Finest / (Speculate Super) / UK Super / Black / Best / (Speculate Pure) / UK Black


Overall I'd say UK Silvertip is a very nice knot for the money. Short loft silvertip is pretty close to the quality for a LOT less money. Grade A's are the way to go if you don't want such a dense brush. If you want a little more spine and will take a good bit less softness to get it then both the finest and best are great options. The blacks are good quality black badgers. You know blacks, lots of backbone and prickle. If that's what you want, that's what they do. I still haven't tried the Pure or China Super.

[Harvitz81]

Here's my impression after about 20 TGN knots.

Softness: (Worst to best)

Black / UK Black / (Speculate Pure) / Finest / Best / (Speculate Super) / UK Super / Silvertip / Grade A / Short Loft Silvertip / UK Silvertip / Synthetic Badger


Individual hair spine (backbone without density... usually also causes prickliness): (Most to least)

UK Black / Black / (Speculate Pure) / Best / Finest / Short loft Silvertip / Grade A / (Speculate Super) / UK Super / Uk Silvertip / Synth Badger (No backbone for first 1/4 of hairs, then lots)

Density: (Most to least)

UK Super / Short loft Silvertip / Xtra stuffed Finest / Synth badger / Grade A / Finest / (Speculate Super) / UK Super / Black / Best / (Speculate Pure) / UK Black


Overall I'd say UK Silvertip is a very nice knot for the money. Short loft silvertip is pretty close to the quality for a LOT less money. Grade A's are the way to go if you don't want such a dense brush. If you want a little more spine and will take a good bit less softness to get it then both the finest and best are great options. The blacks are good quality black badgers. You know blacks, lots of backbone and prickle. If that's what you want, that's what they do. I still haven't tried the Pure or China Super.


In terms of the blacks, which do you think is better. The UK or china one? Or are they fairly comparable.

[fidjit]

Here's my impression after about 20 TGN knots.



Thanks Ian, it's always nice to have a second opinion as in this case YMMV for quite a number of reasons ( loft, personal preference, individual knot etc. )
And I've only concentrated on a smaller selection of knots than yourself !
:thumbup

[SliceOfLife]

In terms of the blacks, which do you think is better. The UK or china one? Or are they fairly comparable.

I prefer the UK black, but they are very different. The China black has a lot more hair and blooms up pretty big. The UK black is MUCH looser packed, doesn't really bloom at all and relies on the spine of the black hairs to work. I find it a little less prickly than the China (which is really impressive, because the thicker packing of the china should make prickliness less obvious), and it has enough hair to still lather great. I also think it looks a lot better. But really the main choice between them is size. The China black looks like an ~24mm bulb after it blooms. The UK black looks like an ~16mm fan.


Yeah, Ian, Loft is a big player with these knots, especially the softer ones. The UK Supers are floppy as hell with a big loft (because they start at something crazy like 70mm) but when you set them down they become a lot firmer, and you actually start to notice a little bit of prickle. So at two different lofts they are VERY different knots.

[fidjit]

Yeah, Ian, Loft is a big player with these knots, especially the softer ones. The UK Supers are floppy as hell with a big loft (because they start at something crazy like 70mm) but when you set them down they become a lot firmer, and you actually start to notice a little bit of prickle. So at two different lofts they are VERY different knots.

Wonder if that's why I'm not impressed with my UK Super. It's a 20mm set at 45mm. When shaving I find it prickly. Weirdly when it's drying on the stand it feels really soft when it's still wet........... :001_huh:

[SliceOfLife]

Frankly the UK super is kind of a miss for me (for TGN where every knot is a winner). I find the new short loft Silvertip better (and cheaper), and the UK silvertip is also better (with similar loft options as the Supers, unlike the short Silvertip) for not too much more money. I think I paid $33 for my 23mm UK Super and $46 for the 24mm UK Silvertip. The Silvertip has softer tips and is denser... both of which are improvements in my opinion on a knot of this quality.

I'd take the Grade A or Short loft Silvertip again before I'd spring for the UK Super, unless I was overly concerned with looks, as the UK knots do have the look of higher quality hair than the others (Lighter tips, more defined band). And if I could fit a 24mm Silvertip in the brush, I'd definitely get the UK Silvertip over the UK Super. I just hope they expand the "short loft Silvertip" to include smaller knot diameters soon, as that knot is a real steal.

[Harvitz81]

I prefer the UK black, but they are very different. The China black has a lot more hair and blooms up pretty big. The UK black is MUCH looser packed, doesn't really bloom at all and relies on the spine of the black hairs to work. I find it a little less prickly than the China (which is really impressive, because the thicker packing of the china should make prickliness less obvious), and it has enough hair to still lather great. I also think it looks a lot better. But really the main choice between them is size. The China black looks like an ~24mm bulb after it blooms. The UK black looks like an ~16mm fan.


Yeah, Ian, Loft is a big player with these knots, especially the softer ones. The UK Supers are floppy as hell with a big loft (because they start at something crazy like 70mm) but when you set them down they become a lot firmer, and you actually start to notice a little bit of prickle. So at two different lofts they are VERY different knots.


I was kind of leaning towards the UK Black for one of my restores, but now you have solidly convinced me that is the way to go. I have an EJ Black Badger that I really like and want to do a restore with one of the TGN knots to compare. Sounds like the UK is the way to go.

[fidjit]

New addition....

TGN Best 16mm. Note that the holder is around 15mm and then grows from there.

Here it is against Super, Finest , Silvertip A, first two @ 45mm, Silvertip @ 48mm but note that the Best is a 16mm knot while the rest are 20mm.

The knot isn't anywhere as dense as the Finest Extra , in fact it's the least dense knot of the lot but to me is still very scrubbie and scritchie

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/limbot/Bone%20Handle%20Brush/P1050102.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/limbot/Bone%20Handle%20Brush/P1050100.jpg