Ak47

[jlanger]

Been debating about picking one up. They've come down in price quite a bit and ammo is at least somewhat affordable, at least for the more corrosive stuff.
Any advice would be helpful. I'm most likely going to go for a cheaper one (under $500).
The gun will most likely be used for a SHTF/Zombies are coming type situation, target practice, and possibly deer hunting. I've looked and it appears that in MN it's legal to hunt with. I know that SKS are legal as well as clips over 5 rounds. It'll most likely be used as a drive gun as it's speed and amount of rounds would be an advantage in fast brush shooting. Though it'd be tough to beat the Model 94's for a good brush gun.

I really like this one at Classic Arms Inc. (http://www.classicarms.us/)
http://www.classicarms.us/images/ROMAKMVBPS1.jpg

$349 seems pretty reasonable IMO, anyone had any experience with Classic Arms?

[wdwrx]

Might work against Badgers..... doesn't strike me as being very "sporting" though....

[Geo Dude]

Might work against Badgers..... doesn't strike me as being very "sporting" though....

Have you ever tried firing a gun while on the move?

[sandmountainslim]

I have an older production Maadi Mfg AkM that I got 17 years ago.

Also keep it as a SHTF weapon. I keep it and a WWII era k98k and lots of ammo in reserve :thumbup1:
Wp

[Texican]

Does it include the grenade launcher attachment? Is it legal in MN with the attachment as well?

(NOTE: Most of my knowledge of AKs comes from Wikipedia and playing way too much Modern Warfare).

[citizensoldierny]

Pardon the pun, but pull the trigger on it. Wish I could pick one up like that , and don't sweat the corrosive ammo. I'm sure the intended 3rd world rebel users don't and their rifles seem to keep on working in spite of it. Besides there's plenty of advice on the internet detailing how to clean after shooting corrosive ammo.

[Snappy Lunch]

I have a AK in my collection. They are reliable. Don't shoot it much though. I find myself grabbing the Colt M4 Carbine .22 LR instead. Ammo much cheaper. I agree with you on the Model 94, can't beat it.
As far as Classic Arms, Inc. goes, I have never dealt with them. Since they are close by, I think I will go check them out.
Good luck on whatever you choose.
:a41:

[Leche]

Stop debating and just get one. Kalashnikov's are extremely popular for a reason.

[jlanger]

I have a AK in my collection. They are reliable. Don't shoot it much though. I find myself grabbing the Colt M4 Carbine .22 LR instead. Ammo much cheaper. I agree with you on the Model 94, can't beat it.
As far as Classic Arms, Inc. goes, I have never dealt with them. Since they are close by, I think I will go check them out.
Good luck on whatever you choose.
:a41:

Yea my Winchesters are currently my SHTF guns, I find myself a little worried if the bad guys are packing anything like a AR15 type or AK, that I'd be a little short on the ammo department. Apparently from what I've been reading the 30/30 and the AK ammo have a fairly similar range and shooting profile, both are fairly accurate out to about 150-200 yds or so. Anything after that is just a hail mary shot.

I could see that that colt of your's would be fun especially when you can pick up a few 100 rds of .22 for what $20?

[C Reed]

If I could own a gun, it would be an AK47, as I would only want one for Zombies/ Aliens/ commies. I've fired a few and the reliability is a huge factor. I would like to see the face of the person whom reviews permits when I tell him that I want the weapon "For the coming zombie apocalypse" with a totally straight face, then get hauled off to the looney bin.

[mretzloff]

They are coming!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/lottieloo/jp/Aleksi_Zombies_boxcover_600_600.jpg

[SliceOfLife]

If I could own a gun it'd be a finn M25. That and a 1911a and I'll rule the zombie apocalypse. I'll keep a couple chumps with Ak's around to cover me while I reload.

;)


Don't worry about corrosive ammo. Just clean the gun after you use it with an ammonia-containing cleanser (windex works).

[yuppiejr]

Looks like a great price for a nice Romanian, I believe I saw one of these at Bill's up in Circle Pines a couple weeks ago and it was one of the better examples I've seen recently. I purchased a CETME from Classic Arms years ago and had no issues, I used Muzzleloaders, Etc.. down in Bloomington for the transfer and it was $25, though it's been many years so I'm not sure they still offer the service.

As a hunting rifle, these look like great drive/push guns on par with a 30/30 in terms of ballistics. I don't think you are restricted to 5 round magazines in MN (I hunt SW in shotgun territory so I don't pay attention to rifle regs) but you might stick with a 10 rounder to keep down the weight and throw on a holo/reticle red-dot sight to improve your acquisition speed. Plenty of options that leave the iron sights usable should you have a dead battery or other failure in the field.

Glad to hear there are other mobile hunters in the northerly parts of the state, for some reason almost everyone I know who hunts up north thinks walking half a mile to your tree stand and sitting for 10 hours with a portable heater and full snack bar is how it's done. As my father in law reminds me if I dare bitch about sore feet or legs after a day, it's called "hunting" not "sitting." :)

[jlanger]

Glad to hear there are other mobile hunters in the northerly parts of the state, for some reason almost everyone I know who hunts up north thinks walking half a mile to your tree stand and sitting for 10 hours with a portable heater and full snack bar is how it's done. As my father in law reminds me if I dare bitch about sore feet or legs after a day, it's called "hunting" not "sitting." :)

lol, some of the s#$% i've had to walk through over the years makes me want to sit in my stand for 10 hours lol. Though I'm amazed at how big of a buck can fit into the tightest stand of brush :blink:

I'd think seriously about getting a red dot but do worry about the battery issue, the dang things seem to go bad at the darndest times, so I think I'll look at the various iron sight options too.
Thanks for the advice guys!

[Mazeman]

I'm avoiding an AK since I don't want to buy yet another caliber. I heard they're reliable, though not hugely accurate.

I'm happy with my Colt AR:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/mazeman/IMG_0201.jpg

[StinkyBunny]

I have a Romanian AK, it's been a great weapon. It goes bang when I pull the trigger and it's OK with accuracy. When you get done shooting it, wash it with Ivory dish washing liquid and wear nitrile gloves. If you're a younger fella and you want kids, you DO NOT want lead and mercury poisoning. :ohmy:

[Hansel]

...don't sweat the corrosive ammo.

Uh... :blink::blink::blink:

Corrosive ammo can potentially render the weapon non-functional, but this depends upon climate.

An explanation of corrosive ammo:
Corrosive ammo, these days, is almost always military surplus ammunition. American surplus ammo is all non corrosive after sometime in the 1960s or 1970s depending on caliber. Only one portion of the ammunition is corrosive, and that's the primer. These primers will leave a corrosive salt residue on all parts of the gun that they touch, including bayonets or other metallic objects exposed to the muzzle blast. These salts suck up moisture like the proverbial sponge, and eat deep pits into the metal if they aren't removed promptly.

Cleaning after shooting with corrosive ammo:
I want to be absoloutely clear about something: Hoppes #9 Nitro Powder Solvent WILL NOT remove corrosive salts from your rifle. Hoppes was reformulated some time in the 1960's or earlier to remove the toxic compounds that were needed for the (Then replaced, in America) corrosive ammo. USGI rifle bore cleaner may or may not remove corrosive salts, depending on when it was made and the exact formula, but I'm not an expert on these. I'm going to give you the method that I KNOW works for sure. I KNOW that salts are water soluble, but I don't know about the other chemical options.

You will need:
A coffee cup full of hot water
A pea-sized drop of Dawn liquid dish soap
Acetone (Get it at your hardware store, do not store in plastic containers)
A cleaning kit appropriate for your rifle/pistol

After firing corrosive ammo, try to clean your rifle within 12-24 hours. Immediately after shooting, if possible, is best.

Step 1: Field strip your rifle. Using some acetone, wipe off the bolt face and the firing pin tip. On an automatic rifle, wipe off the gas piston as well. Run an acetone soaked patch down the bore to remove any oils that may still be inside. On automatic rifles, also swab out the gas tube. Acetone will dissolve many plastics, but none of my plastic cleaning kit tips are affected.

Step 2: Run about a dozen patches, soaked in hot soapy water, down the barrel. Push them in the same direction each time (Preferably from the breech or back end), and remove them from the rod before pulling it back out. Clean the bolt face, firing pin tip, and gas tube and piston (If you have them) with patches soaked in the soap solution.

Step 3: Using the bore brush, scrub the barrel and gas tube with a few passes, then use more wet patches to remove the loosened dirt. Continue this just like your normally would until you're satisfied that the rifle is clean. The water will dissolve and remove the corrosive salts.

Step 4: Once you're satisfied that the rifle is clean, use dry patches on the barrel, gas tube, and other parts to remove as much of the water as possible. After you've completed this, you can take a break for 5 minutes or so.

Step 5: Use a bit of acetone on a patch and wipe down all areas exposed to water, and run another patch soaked in acetone down the bore. This helps any residual water evaporate.

Step 6: At this point, your rifle should be clean. Wipe down all the parts with some gun oil. Leave a light coat of oil in the barrel, and a VERY light coat on the gas tube and piston. If the rifle stays in storage for more than two weeks, check up on it and make sure there isn't any corrosion in the bore. If there is, start at step 1 again.


Edited to add the following:

Things don't work or are bad ideas:

Hoppes #9 Nitro Solvent - Doesn't work!
One upon a time, oh, say, back in the 1950's, Hoppes solvent contained Nitrobenzene. Yup, like what drag racers use. This was, supposedly, able to either deactivate or dissolve and remove corrosive salts. Theres only a few problems with this. Its highly toxic and worse yet, it can absorb right through your skin directly into your bloodstream; it's flammable, and it just might cause cancer. Hoppes does not contain this chemical and has not for a long time. Old bottles that do contain nitrobenzene can be used up, but I would still not trust it for corrosive ammo anyway.

USGI Bore Solvent/Rifle Bore Cleaner - Probably won't work!
This is essentially Hoppes in a green bottle. Old formulations may have been effective against corrosive ammo. US formulations probably tried to use nitrobenzene, and I know that some Comm-Bloc equivalents used chromates. Not only have the formulations changed, but again, the formulas that did work are toxic and give you cancer.

Windex/Generic glass cleaner - Works great! But...
Ok, these actually DO work against corrosive salts, mostly because of the water contained in the products. I personally suggest you avoid these unless you have nothing else. Apparently the ammonia can actually attack and corrode the metal in a similar manner to the salts you're trying to remove.

[letterk]

Will a weapon like this really work with zombies? I thought they were already dead. Aliens, sure, but zombies?

:lol:

[Mazeman]

Will a weapon like this really work with zombies? I thought they were already dead. Aliens, sure, but zombies?

:lol:

I don't claim to be an expert, but I was always taught it was the placement of a head shot that was important with zombies, not so much the caliber. Besides fire, how else do you kill them?

[Unknownsoldier]

If I could own a gun it'd be a finn M25. That and a 1911a and I'll rule the zombie apocalypse. I'll keep a couple chumps with Ak's around to cover me while I reload.

;)


Don't worry about corrosive ammo. Just clean the gun after you use it with an ammonia-containing cleanser (windex works).

Is that necessary, the SMLE I've used with 1940s ammo, I just boiled out and cleaned as normal, and it was fine.

Also boiled out my shotgun once or twice with no problems...

Tom

[Hansel]

Is that necessary, the SMLE I've used with 1940s ammo, I just boiled out and cleaned as normal, and it was fine.
Also boiled out my shotgun once or twice with no problems...
Tom

Hot water is really all you need. The corrosive salts are water soluble, so water will dissolve them and wash them out. It can't hurt to make sure you've removed any oil that may be preventing water from reaching the salts and to use some soap, but plain hot water should work too.

[Unknownsoldier]

Boiling out I usually do 3-4 times with a scrub with napier gun scrubber in between on my shotguns....... bought some crappy spanish shells and they were corrosive as hell.

Tom

[Bill Smith]

If I need a rifle for a Zombie infestation, I rather go for the old Cold War NATO standard: the 7.62mm FN FAL.

[valmara1971]

If I need a rifle for a Zombie infestation, I rather go for the old Cold War NATO standard: the 7.62mm FN FAL.
Nice choice, they had to fight me to hand back my SLR back in the day :mad3:

[jlanger]

If I need a rifle for a Zombie infestation, I rather go for the old Cold War NATO standard: the 7.62mm FN FAL.

I'd agree I beleive that .308 ammo will work in one, though I've heard othewise too, so I'm not 100% sure. However the FN FAL is quite a bit more spendy then ur garden variety AK.
Though If I really wanted to fight off a zombie infestation, I'd think a Saiga shotgun with a drum clip might be the answer.

[Bill Smith]

I'd agree I beleive that .308 ammo will work in one, though I've heard othewise too, so I'm not 100% sure. However the FN FAL is quite a bit more spendy then ur garden variety AK.
Though If I really wanted to fight off a zombie infestation, I'd think a Saiga shotgun with a drum clip might be the answer.

Yeah a Saiga 12 would be perfect for dealing with zombies in close/medium quarters.

[timmy]

I'm avoiding an AK since I don't want to buy yet another caliber. I heard they're reliable, though not hugely accurate.

I'm happy with my Colt AR:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/mazeman/IMG_0201.jpg

You would not have to buy yet another caliber to have an AK style rifle. Sagia is kind enough to them in .223 Remington :biggrin1:

[timmy]

I'd agree I beleive that .308 ammo will work in one, though I've heard othewise too, so I'm not 100% sure. However the FN FAL is quite a bit more spendy then ur garden variety AK.
Though If I really wanted to fight off a zombie infestation, I'd think a Saiga shotgun with a drum clip might be the answer.

A Saiga 12 would be a great choice, I dont think I could drop the cash on a drum clip when they start at $120 for a 20 round up to $425 for a 30 round mag. Give me a crap ton of 12 round clips and practice on mag changes.

[Rick'46]

Aks and SKSs are a lot of fun to shoot. For information and cleaning check out surplusrifle.com. I have ordered from Classic Arms and they are excellent. Hope this helps.

[rvmx]

In my country us regular people are not allowed to have guns or rifles...THAT is really sad cuz I really love fire weapons...so GO FOR IT!

[Wishoot]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I picked up a Saiga in 7.62x39 a few weeks ago and absolutely love the thing. It's plenty accurate and a hoot to shoot too.

I've put a bunch of different JHP, FMJ's and SP's through it with no problems at all. Even the Yugo corrosive stuff shoots like a champ.

Just wish I had bought one when they were selling for $200.

[RyanR]

If you want it for fun, get it. If you want as a deer rifle, forget it. They are not very accurate, especially outside 100 yards. You can get a used Remington 700 under $500 in numerous calibers. I would recomend in a 30.06, .270, or 7mm. All are readily available. It's a very accurate rifle, and parts (if you ever need it) are easy to get.

[Slash McCoy]

Don't most AKs have chrome lined barrels? Of course that only protects the barrels, but that's something.

Non-corrosive 7.62x39 ammo is available, I think.

The AK is a brilliant piece of AT (Appropriate Technology) and is meant to be easily made and maintained, easily trained with, yadda yadda and was never meant to be a tack-driving battle rifle like the M14 or M1 Garand. The rifle is not so much inherently inaccurate (well, it's not really that accurate either, but it takes too hard a knock on that, IMHO) as it is hard to shoot accurately with such a short sight radius. It is a fun gun to shoot, and not so expensive to feed, but I am not a fan, mostly due to the sights. I think you would be better served with a Ruger Mini-14 or if you like scopes, the Ranch Rifle version. Get the stainless. Much more forgiving on maintenance. The only prob I ever had with the Mini-14 is the lugs are very close tolerance and the slightest bit of crud will prevent the bolt from rotating into battery.

[Wishoot]

If you want it for fun, get it. If you want as a deer rifle, forget it. They are not very accurate, especially outside 100 yards. You can get a used Remington 700 under $500 in numerous calibers. I would recomend in a 30.06, .270, or 7mm. All are readily available. It's a very accurate rifle, and parts (if you ever need it) are easy to get.

I have to disagree. Certainly there are more accurate rifles out there, but I've been consistently hitting pie plates at 50 yards using the iron sights. This may not sound great, but my eyesight sucks.

I'm putting a scope on my Saiga later this week and will run it through it's paces at 100-200 yards. If it's hitting where it should, it will be joining me for deer season this year.

[Voomie]

Go for it. It is ok on accuracy but it has been massively produced for a reason. As one expert put it, "You can take parts produced in different countries and still get the thing to fire" With it being used in so many countries, you should be able to find parts and ammo if you ever needed to leave the country.

[Mako72]

I've got a Norinco AK I have had for about 20 years, LOVE IT!! I have shot cases of ammo through it in a sitting and it just doesn't jam or malf. Shoot a thousand rounds through an AR, without cleaning it, and let me know how that works out for ya. I love the accuracy of my AR but if I have to grab one and go there is no question its the AK.

Jay

[aceinyerface]

IO is Made in the USA

Their line up changed recently, but their AK47C was reported by many to be an excellent example of this firearm. BudsGunShop.com is out of them, Impactguns.com has them. Just over you price range though.

http://www.ioinc.us/our-products/rifles?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=40&category_id=3

[OLDMAN]

Been debating about picking one up. They've come down in price quite a bit and ammo is at least somewhat affordable, at least for the more corrosive stuff.
Any advice would be helpful. I'm most likely going to go for a cheaper one (under $500).
The gun will most likely be used for a SHTF/Zombies are coming type situation, target practice, and possibly deer hunting. I've looked and it appears that in MN it's legal to hunt with. I know that SKS are legal as well as clips over 5 rounds. It'll most likely be used as a drive gun as it's speed and amount of rounds would be an advantage in fast brush shooting. Though it'd be tough to beat the Model 94's for a good brush gun.

I really like this one at Classic Arms Inc. (http://www.classicarms.us/)
http://www.classicarms.us/images/ROMAKMVBPS1.jpg

$349 seems pretty reasonable IMO, anyone had any experience with Classic Arms?

An AK would be my first choice....and an M16 would probably be dead last. Go for it!

[denim]

Besides fire, how else do you kill them?

Like vampires, you can't kill them. They're already dead. You can destroy them, maybe. :blink:

[jlanger]

If you want it for fun, get it. If you want as a deer rifle, forget it. They are not very accurate, especially outside 100 yards. You can get a used Remington 700 under $500 in numerous calibers. I would recomend in a 30.06, .270, or 7mm. All are readily available. It's a very accurate rifle, and parts (if you ever need it) are easy to get.

Already got my .308 BLR for my longer shots, that's my stand gun. Most of the brush/drive shots I take are less then 50 yards and usually are proceeded by the words Oh Sh$# there's a deer! Currently the Winchester model 94 is my go to gun for this situation. I could see an AK having advantages/disadvantages in this as well. Mostly that would just be a "justification" to have a cool new thing to shoot :001_cool:

[jlanger]

Like vampires, you can't kill them. They're already dead. You can destroy them, maybe. :blink:

Ok ok, if you really want to know, it's to protect the caravan going up to the hidey hole when the world finally goes down the crapper. :mad3: Gotta have something to keep the starving horde off my food and family.:angry:

[RyanR]

Don't get me wrong, I like to shoot AK47s. The Begium ones are really nice. They weren't really made for accuracy. They were made because they are cheap, reliable, and made in mass quantities (easy to get parts) by the Chinese and Russians. They weren't made for accuracy, but for close combat (within 100 yards) to spray a bunch of led. They are built to be thrown in the mud or sand and picked up and fired without a problem, which they will do. They are built like tanks.

You may get an accurate one, but who knows. They are so massed produced that the machinery tolerances are poor.

If you are thinking of an AR, seriously look at a Ruger Mini 14. My Ruger is more accurate and reliably shoots all types of ammo. Although the .223 is legal for deer here in Texas, IMHO I think it is an inadequate round to take deer. Ruger does make a 30 caliber ranch gun, but I have no personal experience. The Bushmaster is more than twice as much as my Ruger.

The AK is fun though. It is a proven combat gun that will be around for a long time. If you get attacked by zombies, you will be all set.:thumbup1:

[Rossmeister]

Why would you ever use this thing against an animal? The rounds break, splinter and burst in all directions when they penetrate, wild tumbling. A shot in the throat of an animal can exit through the stomach or leg.

This round is design to incapacitate. 5.56 NATO was almost banned for this similar effect, you know?

Poor effect in a hunting target set aside, this will just wound and make the animal suffer needlessly.

EDIT
That said, get the gun. I'd love to try an AK myself. Just don't shoot at animals with it.

[mmack66]

I don't claim to be an expert, but I was always taught it was the placement of a head shot that was important with zombies, not so much the caliber. Besides fire, how else do you kill them?

Any device for the delivery of head trauma generally does the trick

[ryan020406]

In MN anything .22 and larger that's centerfire is legal for deer hunting. The idea of this was to allow 220 swift and .223 I believe. That being said I would prefer a 5.56 to a 7.62, but neither is a great option for large game. In a brush gun I would prefer a heavier caliber to ensure it is not easily deflect while in heavier brush. They are however fun to shoot. Just my opinion.

Ryan

[Mako72]

As an AK guy its always funny to me to see people poo poo the 7.62x39 for deer. Almost any commercial hunting load for the AK round is ballistically identical to the 30-30 and with comparable accuracy. Considering that the 30-30 has probably taken more deer in N America than anything except maybe the 30-06 I don't see how it can be considered poor.

Jay

[stobes21]

As an AK guy its always funny to me to see people poo poo the 7.62x39 for deer. Almost any commercial hunting load for the AK round is ballistically identical to the 30-30 and with comparable accuracy. Considering that the 30-30 has probably taken more deer in N America than anything except maybe the 30-06 I don't see how it can be considered poor.

Jay

I disagree. Comparing the Remington Express Soft Point (one of the most common hunting loads) for each it breaks down as follows:

7.62x39: 125 gr @ 2365 fps for a muzzle energy of 1552 ft/lbs. At 200 yards it has a velocity of 1783 and energy of 882 ft/lbs. Sources here (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=340413) and here. (http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table2.htm)

.30-30: 170 gr @ 2200 fps for a muzzle energy of 1827 ft/lbs. At 200 yards it has a velocity of 1619 and energy of 989. Source. (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=241599)

The .30-30 load therefore offers a much heavier bullet with more energy both at the muzzle and out to at least 200 yards and higher sectional density.

Now, Remington also offers a 150 gr. load that is a bit closer to the soviet round: 150 gr @ 2390 fps for a muzzle energy of 1902 ft/lbs. At 200 yards it has a velocity of 1605 and energy of 858 ft/lbs. Source. (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=232427) That load has significantly more energy at the muzzle but by 200 yards has dropped to a hair less than the soviet round. It still has higher sectional density though.

There are of course different loads that calculate out somewhat differently. But the above rounds are pretty representative of the commercially available hunting loads for both, at least that I have found.

I'm not saying the 7.62x39 won't work perfectly fine for deer. But it isn't identical to the .30-30 and I would say it is a (small) step down from that round as a deer hunting cartridge.

[Mako72]

This comes from Federals website(http://www.federalpremium.com) but you can do the same at Remington with the 7.62 123 grn and 30-30 125 managed recoil. When comparing comparable bullet weights the two are close enough as to be identical at a hundred yards. I know with heavier bullets 30-30 has a slight advantage in off the shelf ammo but most people that hunt with an SKS will handload up to roughly a 150grn which again at the under 150 distance is still pretty comparable. I'm not saying the 30-30 might not hold a slight advantage, I'm saying for most situations the AK would do a comparable job at the under 150 range. I would always recommend a larger caliber than either if the shooter can handle it just to gain ft lbs and flatter trajectory.

General Information:
Load No Caliber Grains/ Grams Bullet Style Brand Use
3030C 30-30 Win. 125 / 8.1 Hollow Point Power-Shok®
76239B 7.62x39mm Soviet 123 / 7.97 Soft Point Power-Shok®


Ballistics Comparisons:
Velocity in Feet per Second (To nearest 10 FPS)
Velocity
Load No Caliber Muzzle 100 Y 200 Y 300 Y 400 Y 500 Y
3030C 30-30 Win. 2570 2083 1656 1309 1079 952
76239B 7.62x39mm 2350 2055 1783 1539 1329 1164


Energy in Foot Pounds (To nearest 5 Foot Pounds)
Energy
Load No Caliber Muzzle 100 Y 200 Y 300 Y 400 Y 500 Y
3030C 30-30 Win. 1833 1204 761 476 323 252
76239B 7.62x39mm 1508 1153 868 646 482 370


Jay

[Mako72]

I'm not saying the 7.62x39 won't work perfectly fine for deer. But it isn't identical to the .30-30 and I would say it is a (small) step down from that round as a deer hunting cartridge.

Dooh!:lol: Read the whole post!!

Sound like we are on the same page after all!

(Bends over) Kick me for not reading to the end!!:lol:

Jay

[stobes21]

Dooh!:lol: Read the whole post!!

Sound like we are on the same page after all!

(Bends over) Kick me for not reading to the end!!:lol:

Jay

Heh, no worries. Ballistics are fun to talk about as long as everyone stays gentlemanly.

I don't think it's very fair to compare the "managed recoil" load from remington as representative of the caliber. It is a deliberately downgraded round. I think it is more fair to compare the standard loadings of both, which is what I tried to do.

Of course handloads of both can be developed to improve their ballistics. I'd still say the larger case capacity of the .30-30 makes it superior, but that is kind of beside the point as far as I'm concerned.

Let's face it: at the start of the season the majority of deer hunters go to wal-mart or their local sporting goods or hardware store and pick up a box or two of one of the more economically priced expanding rounds and go hunt with them. And for those guys the 7.62x39 rounds they are going to find (if they find them with expanding bullets -- smaller places may not have those at all) are going to be inferior to the .30-30 rounds they'll find.


...most people that hunt with an SKS will handload up to roughly a 150grn...

Sorry, but I've gotta call BS on that. The SKS is a perfectly fine weapon, but it's primary appeal is it's cheap price. I have a hard time believing that very many, much less the majority, of guys who pick up a surplus rifle for $200 intending to use it as a cheap deer rifle are going to invest almost as much money in a reloading setup to develop a 150+ grain specialty hunting load. In fact, I would guess that a significant number of SKS hunters use mil-surp FMJ ammo because it's a heck of a lot cheaper than soft/hollow points.

[jlanger]

Heh, no worries. Ballistics are fun to talk about as long as everyone stays gentlemanly.

I don't think it's very fair to compare the "managed recoil" load from remington as representative of the caliber. It is a deliberately downgraded round. I think it is more fair to compare the standard loadings of both, which is what I tried to do.

Of course handloads of both can be developed to improve their ballistics. I'd still say the larger case capacity of the .30-30 makes it superior, but that is kind of beside the point as far as I'm concerned.

Let's face it: at the start of the season the majority of deer hunters go to wal-mart or their local sporting goods or hardware store and pick up a box or two of one of the more economically priced expanding rounds and go hunt with them. And for those guys the 7.62x39 rounds they are going to find (if they find them with expanding bullets -- smaller places may not have those at all) are going to be inferior to the .30-30 rounds they'll find.



Sorry, but I've gotta call BS on that. The SKS is a perfectly fine weapon, but it's primary appeal is it's cheap price. I have a hard time believing that very many, much less the majority, of guys who pick up a surplus rifle for $200 intending to use it as a cheap deer rifle are going to invest almost as much money in a reloading setup to develop a 150+ grain specialty hunting load. In fact, I would guess that a significant number of SKS hunters use mil-surp FMJ ammo because it's a heck of a lot cheaper than soft/hollow points.

True, one other thing to think about is that I hunt with copper rounds, I'll need ot research if 7.62x39 is even available wiht the barnes copper bullets.

[auk1124]

For my two cents I don't think 200 yard ballistics means a whole lot when talking about 30-30 vs. 7.62x39 - I'd think both of them are primarily 100 yard woods calibers...

If I'm somewhere where I'm contemplating 200 yard kills, I'd plan on toting a bolt rifle in a caliber with a little more oomph than either of them. Again, just my two cents.

[Mako72]

I don't think it's very fair to compare the "managed recoil" load from remington as representative of the caliber. It is a deliberately downgraded round. I think it is more fair to compare the standard loadings of both, which is what I tried to do...

I was trying to compare comparable bullet weighted loads. Your right tho' if we used middle of the road for both its probably fairer and then the 30-30 with the 150gn is definitely a winner.


Sorry, but I've gotta call BS on that. The SKS is a perfectly fine weapon, but it's primary appeal is it's cheap price. I have a hard time believing that very many, much less the majority, of guys who pick up a surplus rifle for $200 intending to use it as a cheap deer rifle are going to invest almost as much money in a reloading setup to develop a 150+ grain specialty hunting load. In fact, I would guess that a significant number of SKS hunters use mil-surp FMJ ammo because it's a heck of a lot cheaper than soft/hollow points.

As to this most of the people I knew who hunted with them used them in Nor Cal for pig and most all loaded their own either using 154gr soft points from pulled 7.62x54R milsurp or a comparable on sale soft point so they would feed. But most the people I knew used a full power caliber for deer because they were hunting mulies. Your probably right tho' as most of the people that buy a sks/ak are looking for cheap.

I was primarily commenting as to the fact that it would be more than enough for most deer at the proper range. Lets face it an AK variant rifle is more dirt shooter and SHTF rifle. But in the SHTF role it could defintely be used for deer and I would prefer it over and AR for that role any day. But yes, for hunting in a non emergency role I would never consider it for most hunting primarily because of the lack of distance and rapid energy lost past 100yds.

Jay

[stobes21]

I understand where you're coming from. And I agree that as a SHTF rifle an ak/sks offers more versatility in taking deer sized game than an AR would (though the modular nature of an AR makes it fairly simple to change calibers up to a .308 or something else ideal for deer).

When it comes down to it though deer at 100 yards or less can be taken with any number of good SHTF weapons -- lever action rifles in rifle or magnum handgun chamberings, shotguns loaded with slugs, and even magnum revolvers.

I actually would say that as far as versatility goes there is no better SHTF weapon than a 12 gauge shotgun. With the right ammo choices you can take virtually every animal on this continent from squirrels and birds all the way up to bears. And of course shotguns work quite well against 2-legged threats as well.

[jlanger]

I understand where you're coming from. And I agree that as a SHTF rifle an ak/sks offers more versatility in taking deer sized game than an AR would (though the modular nature of an AR makes it fairly simple to change calibers up to a .308 or something else ideal for deer).

When it comes down to it though deer at 100 yards or less can be taken with any number of good SHTF weapons -- lever action rifles in rifle or magnum handgun chamberings, shotguns loaded with slugs, and even magnum revolvers.

I actually would say that as far as versatility goes there is no better SHTF weapon than a 12 gauge shotgun. With the right ammo choices you can take virtually every animal on this continent from squirrels and birds all the way up to bears. And of course shotguns work quite well against 2-legged threats as well.

True but most shotties are really only good out to 50 yds or so, not to mention the 30 other rounds you have in your clip vs 6 for your shottie.
I agree that it is supremely versatile for all kinds of game provided you have the right types of ammo for it. If you're stuck with slugs you sure don't want to be shooting any birds with it!
My model 94 does fit the bill as a decent SHTF type of gun, I am just thinking of having some more firepower at my disposal.

[LittleLebowski]

You do not know what you are talking about.



Why would you ever use this thing against an animal? The rounds break, splinter and burst in all directions when they penetrate, wild tumbling. A shot in the throat of an animal can exit through the stomach or leg.

This round is design to incapacitate. 5.56 NATO was almost banned for this similar effect, you know?

Poor effect in a hunting target set aside, this will just wound and make the animal suffer needlessly.

EDIT
That said, get the gun. I'd love to try an AK myself. Just don't shoot at animals with it.

[Rossmeister]

You do not know what you are talking about.

And you sir, are rude. You don't even clarify your position, or which part(s) of what I say that it is you disagree with.

I'm speaking from a military intelligence/ballistics standpoint. If there's civilian/other ammunition that doesn't have the characteristics I describe, my post might of course be wrong. There are many factors though, as there are loads of ammunition types. A good shot through soft tissue will most certainly not have the effect I'm talking about. I'm no hunter, but I suspect that doesn't happen with every shot.

In any case, I would prefer a heavier calibre if I were hunting in areas with branches, twigs and undergrowth, not to mention a more accurate weapon for longer ranges.

[LittleLebowski]

Rossmeister, you are factually incorrect. 5.56 NATO in the early Vietnam era, 5.56 did have a tumbling effect upon entrance into soft tissue but that was because of the 1/12 twist rate rifling they used that produced erratic bullet flight. The round itself is based upon .223 Remington, a fine conventional hunting and varminting round. The only differences the SAAMI spec calls for slightly higher pressures in 5.56 which is why you should never shoot 5.56 in a .223 chambered rifle.

There is no military caliber that does what you claimed above. Rather the opposite of "splintering," almost all military issue ball ammo punches a nice clean hole and is designed to (think body armor and cover penetration).

The AK47 in the right hands is certainly capable of harvesting game humanely at about 200 yards and in. You do not need sub minute of angle weapons for that range and actually you don't need subMOA for most hunting.

As far as being rude, that's a reaction to someone making such a wildly, provably wrong statement. I realize this is s shaving forum but man, you had it dead wrong.

[Slash McCoy]

Why would you ever use this thing against an animal? The rounds break, splinter and burst in all directions when they penetrate, wild tumbling. A shot in the throat of an animal can exit through the stomach or leg.

This round is design to incapacitate. 5.56 NATO was almost banned for this similar effect, you know?

Poor effect in a hunting target set aside, this will just wound and make the animal suffer needlessly.

EDIT
That said, get the gun. I'd love to try an AK myself. Just don't shoot at animals with it.

The milspec AK round is no more frangible than the average hunting round. Less, actually. It does not have any unusual tendency to "break, splinter, and burst". I can't imagine where you got that idea.

A shot through the neck exiting through a leg? That would be about as common as lightning striking your deer and vaporizing him while your bullet is in flight, causing you to miss a dead-on shot. Any bullet can be deflected, to a degree. The 7.62 x 39 ball ammo is not known for any unusual tendency in this regard.

5.56mm deflection, keyholing, etc are largely functions of barrel twist. Certain combinations of velocity, bullet weight and shape, and rifling rate of twist can increase or decrease projectile stability. Don't blame the round itself. With the right twist, it can perform fairly well in that regard. Of course, it is a bit light for deer or other larger game, because a quick kill is preferable, unlike on a battlefield where simple incapacitation is acceptable or even desirable in some cases. And even in the best case, deflection will be greater than with a heavier bullet, of course.

But back to the AK, while it is certainly not the perfect deer rifle, it is an economical expedient that works tolerably well for hunting in brushy country where shots are generally under 100 yards. At greater ranges, I would much prefer something along the lines of a 308 or 30.06, myself. For subsistence/survival hunting, I would not feel terribly disadvantaged to have nothing but an AK at hand. It is one of the simplest semiauto or automatic rifles to keep operating. That can be considered an important strong point. In much of the world, 7.62x39 is the most commonly available rifle ammunition. Where this is so, an AK becomes even more attractive.

However, due to the short sight radius and a few other factors, I freely admit that I don't shoot an AK or SKS well enough to satisfy me, and I would never make an AK my personal first choice for a hunting weapon, or even a battle rifle. (urban conflict of a house to house nature excepted) A scope helps, but adds to the complexity and vulnerability of the rifle. My favorite open sight rifle, in spite of the weight, will always be the M-14 or a good clone, whether modified or stock.

[LittleLebowski]

Agreed on all points except the M14 stuff but I hate religious arguments ;) Well said.


The milspec AK round is no more frangible than the average hunting round. Less, actually. It does not have any unusual tendency to "break, splinter, and burst". I can't imagine where you got that idea.

A shot through the neck exiting through a leg? That would be about as common as lightning striking your deer and vaporizing him while your bullet is in flight, causing you to miss a dead-on shot. Any bullet can be deflected, to a degree. The 7.62 x 39 ball ammo is not known for any unusual tendency in this regard.

5.56mm deflection, keyholing, etc are largely functions of barrel twist. Certain combinations of velocity, bullet weight and shape, and rifling rate of twist can increase or decrease projectile stability. Don't blame the round itself. With the right twist, it can perform fairly well in that regard. Of course, it is a bit light for deer or other larger game, because a quick kill is preferable, unlike on a battlefield where simple incapacitation is acceptable or even desirable in some cases. And even in the best case, deflection will be greater than with a heavier bullet, of course.

But back to the AK, while it is certainly not the perfect deer rifle, it is an economical expedient that works tolerably well for hunting in brushy country where shots are generally under 100 yards. At greater ranges, I would much prefer something along the lines of a 308 or 30.06, myself. For subsistence/survival hunting, I would not feel terribly disadvantaged to have nothing but an AK at hand. It is one of the simplest semiauto or automatic rifles to keep operating. That can be considered an important strong point. In much of the world, 7.62x39 is the most commonly available rifle ammunition. Where this is so, an AK becomes even more attractive.

However, due to the short sight radius and a few other factors, I freely admit that I don't shoot an AK or SKS well enough to satisfy me, and I would never make an AK my personal first choice for a hunting weapon, or even a battle rifle. (urban conflict of a house to house nature excepted) A scope helps, but adds to the complexity and vulnerability of the rifle. My favorite open sight rifle, in spite of the weight, will always be the M-14 or a good clone, whether modified or stock.

[cliffordNC]

I used to have an SKS, but it couldn't be scope mounted. I lost interest in it. I think the AK's can be scope mounted - makes a good 'woods' carbine, plus plinking fun.

[DavyRay]

The AKs are fine for soft targets, like deer and rabbits.

For zombies, though, I prefer the BFG-9000. I learned to find and use one back in the 1980s. Ammo is hard to find. You have to look in the right places.

[NorthALABeeKeep]

[QUOTE=Hansel;1995741]Uh... :blink::blink::blink:

One upon a time, oh, say, back in the 1950's, Hoppes solvent contained Nitrobenzene. Yup, like what drag racers use. This was, supposedly, able to either deactivate or dissolve and remove corrosive salts. Theres only a few problems with this. Its highly toxic and worse yet, it can absorb right through your skin directly into your bloodstream; it's flammable, and it just might cause cancer. Hoppes does not contain this chemical and has not for a long time. Old bottles that do contain nitrobenzene can be used up, but I would still not trust it for corrosive ammo anyway.

Benzene is known to cause leukemia in humans. Anyone who works in the petroleum/chemical industry knows or should know this is a bad chemical. The ordor smells like old style model airplane glue, (kinda of sweet smell). The odor thresh hold is 10 ppm(parts per million) and the "safe" exposure limit is 5 to 8 ppm. If you can smell it then you are already over the limit. If you have some of this older solvent it is about as safe as DDT to handle.....

[LittleLebowski]

You can get rid of corrosive salts using plain old hot water, NABK. I've got over 15k rounds of Sov surplus 5.45x39mm through my AR using this method and/or Windex. Just rinse and add more lube.

[LittleLebowski]

I think the AK's can be scope mounted - makes a good 'woods' carbine, plus plinking fun.

They certainly can! There are two excellent choices from Ultimak and Texas Weapon Systems.

[camjr]

I love my AMD-65 folder Hungarian AK variant. When folded, it will fit in a tennis racquet bag if needed. 12" barrel with a 4" muzzle break on the end. Eats everything I've ever fed it. I can get 4" groups at 100 yds with the traditional iron sights, even with the truncated sight radius. Great little carbine. Highly recommended.

Cheers!

[surpera1]

i cant believe the neverending corrosive ammo debate is showing up on a shaving forum - hahahaahahaahahahah
anyway - swab the bore good with windex - run a dry patch through one way and discard - same thing again - this will remove the corrosive salts - then clean normally with hoppes - oil it good - i use motor oil - AKs? lots of fun - yes - hunting ? i would say no unless youre on foot after pigs - for the most part a scoped bolt action is the ticket for hunting - yeah - most anything can be pressed into service for hunting - but weight and ergonomics - i mean carryability - comes into play

[The Nid Hog]

I'm stunned at the casual disregard for factual information in the posts that are being bandied about in a supposed gentlemanly forum. Of course you all know that I'm speaking about the effectiveness of ballistic trauma in dealing with the undead. There may have been a time when you could talk about casually putting a round or two into the cranium of a zombie or otherwise decapitating them, but no federal (or international, for that matter) agency has recommended such a foolhardy tactic for at least fifteen years. I thought everybody knew that. I'm not talking classified information here but knowledge that you could readily glean from "Lancet," "Soldier of Fortune" or "Catholic Digest." Head shots are fine with VREs (Virally Reanimated Entities), but for anything of supernatural or extraterrestrial origin, you'll be in trouble. If you seriously plan to clean out a nest of ghouls, I strongly suggest relying on either a flamethrower (make sure the propellant is blessed) or an RPG with a DE/Collodial Silver warhead. You can also put out poisoned human brains, but make sure you check your local ordinances first. Of course, the most reliable approach would be to call down reflected sunlight from one of the Vatican's geosynchronous satellites, but the technology necessary for transmitting even the most basic call for fire is beyond the resources of the average home-based enthusiast. Now you guys can do whatever you want. But when I'm buttoned up in my post-apocalyptic bunker, I'll have no more use for an AK-47 than I would for a case of reformulated Williams.

[Mako72]

Well Nid I hate to disappoint you but not long ago the US CDC was speaking about what to do in a Zombie Apocalypse...

http://emergency.cdc.gov/socialmedia/zombies_blog.asp

Now while they don't delve into such mundane issues as what caliber to use9way against there morals to suggest gun usage), if you read World War Z (http://emergency.cdc.gov/socialmedia/zombies_blog.asp) you will see that it doesn't require much. Now while an AK may be overkill it will work as long as it blows the brain apart. Luckily most zombie require only disruption of the brain area to render them "Redead".

Now using reformulated Williams has been known to keep Zombies at bay as well as Lilac Vegital. That said, a rock hard puck of Williams flung in a whipping sidearm can make one hell of a zombie killeer. Not as efficient as a good whipped Williams lather bu pretty damn close.

Jay

[MrMurphy]

If you go by that thought process then a .22 LR rifle makes a zombieslayer supreme.

One round penetrating the cranial vault tends to do what I call the 'hamster on crack' routine and wildly ricochet about inside. Very dead, very fast.

And I am speaking from real world experience, i've seen a gangbanger shot by another with a Marlin .22. Not a big round, but quite lethal.

[ChristopherL]

You can kill Zombies with a Chainsaw if there are the slow moving kind or a school bus.....I thought everyone knew that.

[The Nid Hog]

Now using reformulated Williams has been known to keep Zombies at bay as well as Lilac Vegital. That said, a rock hard puck of Williams flung in a whipping sidearm can make one hell of a zombie killeer. Not as efficient as a good whipped Williams lather bu pretty damn close.

This may or may not be the appropriate forum for this, but since we've started, best to continue here. It's a little known fact that Williams is particularly useful in repelling zombies. The truth is, they like it. Toss a couple of pucks in front of a mob of rampaging zombies (and I mean the ones that can run) and they'll immediately stop and try to work up a good lather with them. It will probably keep them busy until the whole puck is rubbed away, giving you plenty of time to get clear of the area.

[MrMurphy]

Lay down some vegetable oil around the spot and it'll turn into a zombie slip-n-slide, which is amusing, then you light it on fire.

[Wishoot]

Tell you what guys. I bought the Saiga a couple of months ago. Since then, I've put about 1000 rounds downrange and put an old Weaver scope on it. This thing is freaking nuts on at 200 yards and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for deer (Or zombies. Whichever comes first).

[LittleLebowski]

Tell you what guys. I bought the Saiga a couple of months ago. Since then, I've put about 1000 rounds downrange and put an old Weaver scope on it. This thing is freaking nuts on at 200 yards and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for deer (Or zombies. Whichever comes first).

Doesn't surprise me at all. AKs are more accurate than you think and ARs are more reliable than you think.

[jlanger]

Doesn't surprise me at all. AKs are more accurate than you think and ARs are more reliable than you think.

Would make sense befitting the two main battle rifles of some of the biggest and best armies ever created. Both have advantages disadvantages. IMO I'd love to have both but the AK is quite a bit cheaper to start out with at least.

[Acmemfg]

Well...7.62x39 and 30-30 Win. calibers are basically the same from a ballistics standpoint. As a sporting rifle ammunition, the 30-30 has probably brought home more white tail deer than any other round. A quality 30-30 (Winchester, Marlin, even a Henry) are most probably going to be a lot better built and have superior tolerances than a knock off of a military small arm from a 3rd world manufacturer. As far as the zombie thing...you ain't gonna beat a quality .12 gauge pump. 00 buckshot is essentially .32 caliber. 9 or 12 rounds coming at you all at once from 25-30 feet is a significant amount of firepower. The BEST fully automatic rifles don't have a cycle rate better than that. AND...I'll suggest that with a rifled barrel, a .12 gauge sabot slug is spot on from at least 100 yards. Granted, the AK 47 has a lot more "Urban cool" factor, but then I don't shoot my handguns from a cockeyed-horizontal position like in the movies either..............................