Roids!

[Mr_Amazing]

I'm quite surprised nobody brought the topic up given Mark McGwire's recent admission of use. Jose Canseco said multiple times that McGwire used steroids and HGH and he was 100% right.

What is your take on MLB and the performance-enhancing drug (PED) use?
How does the recent news affect your opinion of McGwire? What about Canseco?
Will you continue to buy team merchandise, attend games, or even watch baseball now?

My take on it is that Canseco has told the truth multiple times. He has only been proven right by players and former players about the use of PEDs. He appears to be a shady person, but I think it has more to do with the fact that most of Major League Baseball has targeted him as a cancer to the game. I find his openness and honesty a refreshing thing. How many times have players denied using PEDs only to later admit to it after they can't take it anymore? I find it sickening that MLB condemns someone like Jose Canseco, yet allows records of people like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens stand.

McGwire admitted he used the drugs, but then said that they didn't really help him out and his records should stand. It's nice that he admitted to using the drugs, but to then say that they didn't help him is just pathetic. He claimed he had all kinds of injuries and used the drugs to get him into playing shape.

So what is your take on the topic?

[knlgskr]

I'm quite surprised nobody brought the topic up given Mark McGwire's recent admission of use. Jose Canseco said multiple times that McGwire used steroids and HGH and he was 100% right.

What is your take on MLB and the performance-enhancing drug (PED) use?
How does the recent news affect your opinion of McGwire? What about Canseco?

Would be more surprised if no one is/was cheating; just the nature of the beast. Mc basically a 1 trick horse; power hitter. Would u buy a used car from Mc or C? Philosophy of owners, players, etc. seems to be that it is not wrong to cheat; only to get caught and shame on those who catch them. Perhaps those who cheat do so because they cannot play honest and succeed/win; first memory of this was in the 2nd/3rd grade with classmate(s). No money in catching cheaters cheating; money in helping cheaters cheat.



Will you continue to buy team merchandise, attend games, or even watch baseball now?


Seldom if ever have and with the passage of time less so and that is applicable to sports in general; have always had different priorities and interests. Learned early in life I wasn't going to be fast, big, good, etc., enough to receive anything for doing so and no sense wasting time, energy, risking injury, etc., chasing rainbows; not that I wouldn't have liked to have been/done so at one time but my dreams died early which is/was probably good in my instance. Had the same coach as Barry Sanders which says----. Went to school with some one who frequently said about a number of leisure pursuits that they were "too much like work" and if you lived on a farm/ranch; that statement contained a soupcon or three of the truth.



My take on it is that Canseco has told the truth multiple times. He has only been proven right by players and former players about the use of PEDs. He appears to be a shady person, but I think it has more to do with the fact that most of Major League Baseball has targeted him as a cancer to the game. I find his openness and honesty a refreshing thing. How many times have players denied using PEDs only to later admit to it after they can't take it anymore? I find it sickening that MLB condemns someone like Jose Canseco, yet allows records of people like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens stand.

Shame on C for telling the truth even if he seems to be a bum as a person. After all, Baseball is as American as Coke, Apple Pie, Chevrolet, Blue Skies, Green Grass, Motherhood & God in whatever order we choose to place them and no one should profane the Great American Game by snitching on cheaters even if he is one himself. How many of the aforementioned would anyone recommend as role models in addition to many not mentioned?


McGwire admitted he used the drugs, but then said that they didn't really help him out and his records should stand. It's nice that he admitted to using the drugs, but to then say that they didn't help him is just pathetic. He claimed he had all kinds of injuries and used the drugs to get him into playing shape.


Is he a whiner who is finally admitting what many suspected for some time? Wonder what he would have been if he had "grown up"?


Can anyone say/spell Pete Rose?



So what is your take on the topic?

You have begun an interesting thread. A Captain of Industry/Financier once told an attorney he had recently hired that he didn't hire him to tell him what the law said he couldn't do but that he hired him to tell him how he could do what the law said he couldn't do. It may well be that it would be easier to name those who don't cheat rather than those who do and that may be true forever. Perhaps many people are like rivers, they follow the path of least resistance and thus become crooked but there are exceptions.

[WhosYerBob]

I lost my respect for baseball many years ago and no longer watch the games or listen to them in any fashion. I don't buy any baseball merchandise nor attend games.

My own feeling is that anyone - in any sport - that captured a record while on juice should be stripped of their trophies, removed from the record books, purged from the Hall of Fame and treated as though they never existed in the sport.

[SRock]

Is anyone really surprised by this information? It happens, it has happened and it will continue to happen. Is there any honor in it, absolutely not. Should he get into the HoF, no. That's that. Sorry Cardinal fans, not only is your hero a fake/fraud but he has no integrity. Some will argue that 'he told the truth' or that 'in the end he did the right thing' that doesn't change the fact that he lied to his fans and he lied to congress. How long did it take for the right thing to surface.

I haven't followed baseball in years. Not because of steroids or the players strike but because baseball isn't that exciting to watch and they play soooooo many games it actually becomes a bit annoying/boring.

Its unfortunate that this happens, though I'm all but certain it happens in every professional sport and many amateur sports as well.

[jazzman]

McGwire is just as dishonest today as he was when he was committing federal drug crimes while he was playing.

He claims that he would have achieved the same numbers without the illegally obtained drugs, and he claims that he took the drugs so that he could play when injuries otherwise would have sidelined him. This makes no sense. On the one hand, he would have hit 70 home runs without cheating, but on the other hand, he would have hit 0 home runs without the chemicals because he would have been on the disabled list. OK:blink:.

Injuries are part of the game, and many great careers were ended by them. What kind of numbers would Koufax, Maris, Mantle, or Fydrich have obtained if they had taken magical, illegal drugs to heal their injuries and ailments? Besides, does anyone really believe that McGwire's (and Sosa's and others') drugs had nothing to do with breaking 70-year-old records? Give me a break.

McGwire and all the other steroid-era players who cheated are a disgrace and should be shunned as if they were members of the "Black Sox" team that threw the World Series.

And why is that ripple-necked freak coming forward now? He just got embarrassed for the fourth time in HOF voting, he just got a coaching job in MLB (unavailable to Joe Jackson and the other Black Sox), and he hired a former presidential press secretary so that he could raise his lying to a world-class professional level. This kind of dishonesty makes me want to hurl.

[Obsessed]

my own feeling is that anyone - in any sport - that captured a record while on juice should be stripped of their trophies, removed from the record books, purged from the hall of fame and treated as though they never existed in the sport.


baseball isn't that exciting to watch and they play soooooo many games it actually becomes a bit annoying/boring.


mcgwire is just as dishonest today as he was when he was committing federal drug crimes while he was playing.

He claims that he would have achieved the same numbers without the illegally obtained drugs, and he claims that he took the drugs so that he could play when injuries otherwise would have sidelined him. This makes no sense. On the one hand, he would have hit 70 home runs without cheating, but on the other hand, he would have hit 0 home runs without the chemicals because he would have been on the disabled list. Ok:blink:.

Injuries are part of the game, and many great careers were ended by them. What kind of numbers would koufax, maris, mantle, or fydrich have obtained if they had taken magical, illegal drugs to heal their injuries and ailments? Besides, does anyone really believe that mcgwire's (and sosa's and others') drugs had nothing to do with breaking 70-year-old records? Give me a break.

Mcgwire and all the other steroid-era players who cheated are a disgrace and should be shunned as if they were members of the "black sox" team that threw the world series.

And why is that ripple-necked freak coming forward now? He just got embarrassed for the fourth time in hof voting, he just got a coaching job in mlb (unavailable to joe jackson and the other black sox), and he hired a former presidential press secretary so that he could raise his lying to a world-class professional level. This kind of dishonesty makes me want to hurl.

+1

[TimmyBoston]

McGwire and all the other steroid-era players who cheated are a disgrace and should be shunned as if they were members of the "Black Sox" team that threw the World Series.



I think this is the first thing we've agreed on 100% in the barbershop. :thumbup1:


For me, the major problem is Bud Selig that man is a joke. He has no business running a little league let along the MLB. I fully believe he encourages steroid use because the helps the players and that in turn helps the ratings. If baseball wants to get serious they are going to have to start testing everyone very frequently. I feel that football and basketball should also be subject to that same level of scrutiny.

[galopede]

Ahh, there's me getting the wrong end of the stick again. I thought this thread was about haemorrhoids, the old Farmer Giles!

I'll get my coat...

Gareth

[jazzman]

I think this is the first thing we've agreed on 100% in the barbershop. :thumbup1:


For me, the major problem is Bud Selig that man is a joke. He has no business running a little league let along the MLB. I fully believe he encourages steroid use because the helps the players and that in turn helps the ratings. If baseball wants to get serious they are going to have to start testing everyone very frequently. I feel that football and basketball should also be subject to that same level of scrutiny.

It's all about the money. Selig is/was an owner, not the independent kind of commissioner the business needs. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc., sold a lot of tickets for the owners, and the owners made them very wealthy in return. In the long run, I think they'll sell more tickets if the fans think the game is honest (but that may be very naive on my part).

[gurana]

It's all about the money. Selig is/was an owner, not the independent kind of commissioner the business needs. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc., sold a lot of tickets for the owners, and the owners made them very wealthy in return. In the long run, I think they'll sell more tickets if the fans think the game is honest (but that may be very naive on my part).

+1

Sure, he told the truth, when it suited him and he had something to gain from it. It's not like he came out (a ridiculous notion as everybody already "knew" this information) because he just couldn't handle the inner turmoil. He's getting back into the game as a coach (a first base coach, I believe) and he wanted to "get ahead" of this before he started this spring.

[airplanedoc]

For me, the major problem is Bud Selig that man is a joke. He has no business running a little league let along the MLB. I fully believe he encourages steroid use because the helps the players and that in turn helps the ratings. If baseball wants to get serious they are going to have to start testing everyone very frequently. I feel that football and basketball should also be subject to that same level of scrutiny.


+1

I think, Bud Selig has done or been complicent in more to ruin baseball than anybody else. I gave up on professional sports a long time ago.

[bigred90gt]

What is your take on MLB and the performance-enhancing drug (PED) use?
How does the recent news affect your opinion of McGwire? What about Canseco?
Will you continue to buy team merchandise, attend games, or even watch baseball now?


1 - Who cares? It is a sport. Sports are entertainment. Besides, steroids do not truly give you much of an advantage where precise coordination is required, similar to golf. The guy who holds the current World Long Drive title, Jamie Sadlowski, is 5'11" tall, and weighs 165lbs. In 2008, he won with a drive of 418 yards. I'm not sure if anyone here plays golf, but 418 yards is really just stupid long.

2 - It doesnt. I dont know him, and I dont care one way or another about him. Either one of them, really.

3 - I dont personally participate in any of the items in question, but I think for those who are fans, it would be pretty silly if they answered no to any of the questions. I am probably as passionate about golf as many people are about baseball. If a steroid scandal broke out in golf tomorrow, I would still watch the tournament that starts tomorrow, I would still buy golf equipment and clothing, and I will still attend the Shell Houston Open when it is in town. Watching golf, for me, is about entertainment. Whether or not someone is taking steroids does not effect the entertainment value of the sport, for me. I know that it does not give a competitive advantage.

The only sports where I think steroids should be banned are sports where the use by some could have a negative effect on the health, safety, and well being of others. Football, combat sports, and really any rough contact sports (rugby comes to mind). In these cases, the additional strength is certainly a competitive advantage, and puts the health and safety of your competitors at risk. In sports like Baseball, Golf, Soccer, Basketball, I personally think banning these substances are pretty silly. I also think these substances being illegal is pretty silly, but that is another topic for another time.


Another thing that really bothers me about this topic is Congress's involvement on the issue. I disagree, with everything in me that I have to disagree with, with Congress getting involved in the rules and regulations of baseball, or ANY entertainment venue. My taxes are getting spent on a Congressional investigation of BASEBALL?????? it gets my blood boiling just thinking about it.

[ratcheer]

McGwire admitted he used the drugs, but then said that they didn't really help him out and his records should stand. It's nice that he admitted to using the drugs, but to then say that they didn't help him is just pathetic. He claimed he had all kinds of injuries and used the drugs to get him into playing shape.

So what is your take on the topic?

This is the most interesting part of the whole thing, to me. He must be stupid. Steroids are not about performing better on days when you take them as opposed to days when you haven't. They make you stronger and stronger on a long-term basis.

Anyone can see that, when he started MLB and for his first several years, he was tall and lanky. Yes, he was a big, strapping young man. But, as he took steroids over a period of years, he came to look more like a lumber jack (which, in a way, he was), with a huge, broad chest and back and very large, powerful arms. It was all this additional strength that gave him the ability to swat 70 home runs when all the greats of all the previous years had never managed more than 61.

He had developed his skill in hitting over many years from youth to adulthood. Then, with the help of illegal drugs, he increased his strength, greatly. The strength didn't give him the skill, but it did add to his ability to jack balls out of the park. The bottom line is, he cheated, whether he thinks it helped him or not.

Tim

[Mink]

I honestly believe that the PED's are the final nail in the coffin for baseball. I grew up absolutely loving the game (still a Red Sox fan living in Colo for the last 30 yrs - I guess). With the rise of football came the decline of baseball. The PED's gave the game some excitement because of the breaking of the old batting records. Today's game is so specialized, trades/cutting of players so common, and the need for drugs to break all these false records, all this and more has made baseball an odd professional sport. Think there will ever be a 30 game winner again? Think anyone will care? I think baseball has died, and we're just viewing the death struggle.

[knlgskr]

My own feeling is that anyone - in any sport - that captured a record while on juice should be stripped of their trophies, removed from the record books, purged from the Hall of Fame and treated as though they never existed in the sport.[/QUOTE]

m e 2


Is anyone really surprised by this information? It happens, it has happened and it will continue to happen. Is there any honor in it, absolutely not. Should he get into the HoF, no. That's that. Sorry Cardinal fans, not only is your hero a fake/fraud but he has no integrity. Some will argue that 'he told the truth' or that 'in the end he did the right thing' that doesn't change the fact that he lied to his fans and he lied to congress. How long did it take for the right thing to surface.

Amen! No surprise here, No HoF, too long.


Its unfortunate that this happens, though I'm all but certain it happens in every professional sport and many amateur sports as well.

I'll bet you made a good bet.


McGwire is just as dishonest today as he was when he was committing federal drug crimes while he was playing.

Does that surprise you? Mc dodgy chap eh what?




McGwire and all the other steroid-era players who cheated are a disgrace and should be shunned as if they were members of the "Black Sox" team that threw the World Series.

Some of the "Black Sox" were innocent.

And why is that ripple-necked freak coming forward now? He just got embarrassed for the fourth time in HOF voting, he just got a coaching job in MLB (unavailable to Joe Jackson and the other Black Sox), and he hired a former presidential press secretary so that he could raise his lying to a world-class professional level. This kind of dishonesty makes me want to hurl.

Self-serving jerk.



For me, the major problem is Bud Selig that man is a joke. He has no business running a little league let along the MLB. I fully believe he encourages steroid use because the helps the players and that in turn helps the ratings. If baseball wants to get serious they are going to have to start testing everyone very frequently. I feel that football and basketball should also be subject to that same level of scrutiny.[/QUOTE]

4 sure TimmyB 4 sure. Why 4 u compare "Bud Light" to joke? Jokes is funny n "Bud Light" isn't funny; he's pathetic an' ain't got no more integrity than a pile of dung.


It's all about the money. Selig is/was an owner, not the independent kind of commissioner the business needs. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc., sold a lot of tickets for the owners, and the owners made them very wealthy in return. In the long run, I think they'll sell more tickets if the fans think the game is honest (but that may be very naive on my part).

You sound like someone of honor; thank you.

Sure, he told the truth, when it suited him and he had something to gain from it. It's not like he came out (a ridiculous notion as everybody already "knew" this information) because he just couldn't handle the inner turmoil. He's getting back into the game as a coach (a first base coach, I believe) and he wanted to "get ahead" of this before he started this spring.[/QUOTE]

Spinnerreeno?


2 - It doesnt. I dont know him, and I dont care one way or another about him. Either one of them, really.

m e 2 but those who lack integrity disgust me.

3 - I dont personally participate in any of the items in question, but I think for those who are fans, it would be pretty silly if they answered no to any of the questions. I am probably as passionate about golf as many people are about baseball. If a steroid scandal broke out in golf tomorrow, I would still watch the tournament that starts tomorrow, I would still buy golf equipment and clothing, and I will still attend the Shell Houston Open when it is in town. Watching golf, for me, is about entertainment. Whether or not someone is taking steroids does not effect the entertainment value of the sport, for me. I know that it does not give a competitive advantage.

Can't play by the rules then change the rules, don't ignore them, people will think you are cheat but perhaps some individuals don't care

The only sports where I think steroids should be banned are sports where the use by some could have a negative effect on the health, safety, and well being of others. Football, combat sports, and really any rough contact sports (rugby comes to mind). In these cases, the additional strength is certainly a competitive advantage, and puts the health and safety of your competitors at risk. In sports like Baseball, Golf, Soccer, Basketball, I personally think banning these substances are pretty silly. I also think these substances being illegal is pretty silly, but that is another topic for another time.

Same here, change the rules, whatever, enforcement is a farce.


Another thing that really bothers me about this topic is Congress's involvement on the issue. I disagree, with everything in me that I have to disagree with, with Congress getting involved in the rules and regulations of baseball, or ANY entertainment venue. My taxes are getting spent on a Congressional investigation of BASEBALL?????? it gets my blood boiling just thinking about it.[/QUOTE]

As if those bozos don't have enough to do already. Whaddawaste! @#$%nincompoops


This is the most interesting part of the whole thing, to me. He must be stupid. Steroids are not about performing better on days when you take them as opposed to days when you haven't. They make you stronger and stronger on a long-term basis.

He may be so strong he has muscles in his head; u know that funny growth on his neck thing.

Anyone can see that, when he started MLB and for his first several years, he was tall and lanky. Yes, he was a big, strapping young man. But, as he took steroids over a period of years, he came to look more like a lumber jack (which, in a way, he was), with a huge, broad chest and back and very large, powerful arms. It was all this additional strength that gave him the ability to swat 70 home runs when all the greats of all the previous years had never managed more than 61.

He had developed his skill in hitting over many years from youth to adulthood. Then, with the help of illegal drugs, he increased his strength, greatly. The strength didn't give him the skill, but it did add to his ability to jack balls out of the park. The bottom line is, he cheated, whether he thinks it helped him or not.

Tim

Muscles are required, intelligence not essential.


I honestly believe that the PED's are the final nail in the coffin for baseball. I grew up absolutely loving the game (still a Red Sox fan living in Colo for the last 30 yrs - I guess). With the rise of football came the decline of baseball. The PED's gave the game some excitement because of the breaking of the old batting records. Today's game is so specialized, trades/cutting of players so common, and the need for drugs to break all these false records, all this and more has made baseball an odd professional sport. Think there will ever be a 30 game winner again? Think anyone will care? I think baseball has died, and we're just viewing the death struggle.

You should say good things about the dead? Baseball is dead? Good!

Most athletes remind me of trained animals.

[MoJoe]

My 2 cents:

The Players - The ones who took steroids are frauds. While the league did not have the rules or enforcement in place to shut down these practices the players took steroids, performed at a higher level and allowed the world to believe that they were larger than life when they simply were not. Without question, their records should not stand and should be relegated to a dirty era much like the 1919 Black Sox.

MLB: Allowed the fraud to take place and turned a blind eye to PED use. Made matters worse by actually rewarding players who excelled through the use of PED's with huge contracts and in a semi capped system punished clean players. At least, they responded to public pressure and demanded better testing and punishments for infractions but that is not enough to wipe away their sins.

Players Union: Probably the worst of all. Allowed PED use to take place and protected the players from change against public opinion and demands to clean up the game. Worse yet, allowed a few frauds to earn top dollar on the free agency market while relegating what may be the majority of players who may have deserved more income to be paid less for doing the right thing. The Union is still not willing to allow testing, etc. to go far enough even though people have had enough.


As for me, I can do without MLB. We have 2 minor league clubs in the area and I'm fine attending an occasional game with my kids. Plus, being an MLB fan is too labor intensive and I don't have the time to read the paper each day to keep up with the standings, stats and everything else.

[NorthALABeeKeep]

How about having a steroids hall of fame. If you used HGH or steroids, instead of being in the baseball (or any sport) Hall of Fame you get moved into the "I didn't do it on my own but had to have a little help" Steroids/Drug users Hall of Fame. Why should sports "heroes" be treated any different than anyone else who breaks the rules. :001_cool:

[SalvadorMontenegro]

I honestly don't care. I just wish they would do something so that this isn't in the news for two months out of every year.

I think the day of professional athletes being role models is long over. We can complain about it, but I don't think it's going to make them change their ways. Obviously, Tiger Woods is proof that even those who do appear to be positive role models, aren't always so.

The difference with baseball is that the objectionable behavior of the players is directly related to the way the game is played and has an impact on the game itself. In such a situation, I blame the league more than anyone. I think they need to either condone this conduct or condemn it and institute policies that will prevent it from happening.

None of this surprises me in the slightest. I think I've grown up with so much corruption around me that I don't have the sort of pristine image of the sport that those who grew up with Dimaggio might have. To me, athletes are just people and some of them do bad things and some of them don't. It just baffles me that this is still so newsworthy. Jose Canseco, who, as you said, has been painted as a villain by the league, seems to me more of the antihero in this interminable drama. I think Selig is the real villain.

[cfriend]

This is the most interesting part of the whole thing, to me. He must be stupid. Steroids are not about performing better on days when you take them as opposed to days when you haven't. They make you stronger and stronger on a long-term basis.

Anyone can see that, when he started MLB and for his first several years, he was tall and lanky. Yes, he was a big, strapping young man. But, as he took steroids over a period of years, he came to look more like a lumber jack (which, in a way, he was), with a huge, broad chest and back and very large, powerful arms. It was all this additional strength that gave him the ability to swat 70 home runs when all the greats of all the previous years had never managed more than 61.

He had developed his skill in hitting over many years from youth to adulthood. Then, with the help of illegal drugs, he increased his strength, greatly. The strength didn't give him the skill, but it did add to his ability to jack balls out of the park. The bottom line is, he cheated, whether he thinks it helped him or not.

Tim

+1. Similar to Barry Bonds:

http://www.daviddylanthomas.com/wp-content/uploads/blog/barrybonds2.jpg

[FLTiger]

I honestly don't care.

+1

:sleep1:

[kwk285]

All you need to do is have two sets of records. One set for those who use not PEDs and one set for those who want to use them. Athletes would need to state wheter they are using or not. This will take care of all of the scandal.:w00t:

[Amer]

Without Roids, baseball would still be recovering from '94 strike. No one cared about baseball anymore until McGwire and Sosa started hitting homers every night. I'm saying this as a person that lived right outside St. Louis during the whole thing.

Those were glorious times, when mediocre Blues hockey was king in this town.

I'm pretty sure if fantasy baseball was never invented that no one would care about baseball anymore.

McGwire brings this up now because the Cards have hired him as a hitting coach. I could care less about his already broken records standing or not but I just hope everyone shuts up soon so we can just have an awesome hitting coach. Local polls put the McGwire hate at about 68% I think. Everyone knew what was happening at the time. They freakin found it in his locker, and everyone just turned a blind eye because he was hitting home runs. The franchise is what is it is now because of the popularity he generated. There is a new stadium because of the popularity he generated. And now everyone is clamoring to take his name off a mile stretch of highway and whatever else here.

3 months into the season if we have a solid lineup of hitters everyone in this town will love him again. They've forgiven LaRussa's DUI and countless other players drunk driving. They'll forgive McGwire as long as they are hitting the ball.

[ratcheer]

+1. Similar to Barry Bonds:

http://www.daviddylanthomas.com/wp-content/uploads/blog/barrybonds2.jpg

Undoubtedly.

Tim

[luvmysuper]

Being in the older crowd, I had a totally different impression of what this thread was going to be about before I read it.

Having said that - I have not watched a single game of pro baseball since the strike and missing a world series. They will never get another penny out me in ticket, memorabilia or advertising sales.

I don't care what they do to themselves or to each other, and I don't care who makes it, doesn't make it, or is removed from the hall of shame.

[the beav]

Being in the older crowd, I had a totally different impression of what this thread was going to be about before I read it.


LOL--me too. :lol::lol::lol:

[Ironman06]

Well forgive me for going in a contray direction... I ususally agree with the majority on B&B I think.

1) I love baseball!

I started as a little kid trading baseball cards, watching Alan Tramell, Lou Whittiker and Kirk Gibson in Detroit (Woo '84!). Started to appeciate the Red Sox somewhat... then I got busy in college and girls and football and forgot about baseball for awhile... the strike certainly didn't help any.

After college, I was introduced to fantasy baseball. I didn't really get it, but I found fantasy hockey fascinating. Then fantasy football turned my head for a few years too, but today I play only fantasy baseball (about 3 years now). I don't have tv, but I listen to alot of games on the radio (just like the game is meant to be enjoyed). I'm not that old, but I sure SOUND like an old feller don't I?! xD

2) Roids ruined the historical statistics... but so did gambling... although maybe not to the same extent. It's too bad the records don't mean much anymore, but I still appreciate the head to head competition, NL vs. AL, playoffs and of course the World Series. Selig's new idea to challenge the best Japanese team with the World Series champion may have legs if the Japanese teams are competetive... although I rather doubt it. But if that works that could be pretty cool. Maybe some Central and South American countries could put together a league too. I don't think baseball is dead... it's just changed, and not very much mind you... just a little. Football has changed alot and folks love it. I think baseball may be the next soccer... I just hope it's appreciated more in the U.S.A than soccer is, and for the most part I think the worst is over.

3) I don't care about Jose C. Don't dislike him... but I would say he's speaking the truth alot more than anyone figured.

4) Mark M. --well, I'd care a whole lot less if he hadn't broken the record. But because he did... and Sammy too (did he admit to roids...or was he fingered by Jose C too?) I'd say give 'em all an asterisk and start testing all the time ala cycling. The old record stands unblemished in my eyes. Mark is NOT the batting champ.

... I really figured B&B for a baseball loving crowd. weird...

[jazzman]

Well forgive me for going in a contray direction... I ususally agree with the majority on B&B I think.

1) I love baseball!

I started as a little kid trading baseball cards, watching Alan Tramell, Lou Whittiker and Kirk Gibson in Detroit (Woo '84!). Started to appeciate the Red Sox somewhat... then I got busy in college and girls and football and forgot about baseball for awhile... the strike certainly didn't help any.

After college, I was introduced to fantasy baseball. I didn't really get it, but I found fantasy hockey fascinating. Then fantasy football turned my head for a few years too, but today I play only fantasy baseball (about 3 years now). I don't have tv, but I listen to alot of games on the radio (just like the game is meant to be enjoyed). I'm not that old, but I sure SOUND like an old feller don't I?! xD

2) Roids ruined the historical statistics... but so did gambling... although maybe not to the same extent. It's too bad the records don't mean much anymore, but I still appreciate the head to head competition, NL vs. AL, playoffs and of course the World Series. Selig's new idea to challenge the best Japanese team with the World Series champion may have legs if the Japanese teams are competetive... although I rather doubt it. But if that works that could be pretty cool. Maybe some Central and South American countries could put together a league too. I don't think baseball is dead... it's just changed, and not very much mind you... just a little. Football has changed alot and folks love it. I think baseball may be the next soccer... I just hope it's appreciated more in the U.S.A than soccer is, and for the most part I think the worst is over.

3) I don't care about Jose C. Don't dislike him... but I would say he's speaking the truth alot more than anyone figured.

4) Mark M. --well, I'd care a whole lot less if he hadn't broken the record. But because he did... and Sammy too (did he admit to roids...or was he fingered by Jose C too?) I'd say give 'em all an asterisk and start testing all the time ala cycling. The old record stands unblemished in my eyes. Mark is NOT the batting champ.

... I really figured B&B for a baseball loving crowd. weird...

I agree with almost everything you said here. It's because I love baseball that I'm upset with the "stars" of the steroid era, and I think some of the other posters feel the same way. At the same time, though, I really understand the fellows who gave up on it after one disaster or another, such as the strike or Bonds's hat size variations.

Now we can move forward to hating the NBA's gunslingers. What is worse--Arenas's behavior or the fact that a losing team was paying him about $170K per game?

[The Nid Hog]

I've been a Pirates fan since I was a kid. If steroids would get them a pennant, not only would I support their use, I'd fly to Pittsburgh and administer the injections myself.
For a trip to the series, I'd help them extract the HGH.

[GFlanagan3]

I've been a Pirates fan since I was a kid. If steroids would get them a pennant, not only would I support their use, I'd fly to Pittsburgh and administer the injections myself.
For a trip to the series, I'd help them extract the HGH.

"We are Family" man that has been a LONG time :blush:

[The Nid Hog]

"We are Family" man that has been a LONG time :blush:

No kidding. My buddies and I used to skip school and go to games that year. It has been a very long time.

[dpmtherrien]

Lets just cut to the chase, no pussy footing or fooling around. Test every player, if they're dirty throw them out, they lose their contract, and they're banned for life. Don't make excuses and play around with these guys. They know they're doing wrong.

If it comes to light through admission, or a tell all, strip any records held, and ban the sob for life. :thumbdown

Enough said, over and done. Lets clean up the game and get back to America's national pass time. :thumbup1:

That's my 2 cents.

[OldSchoolYoungin]

Lets just cut to the chase, no pussy footing or fooling around. Test every player, if they're dirty throw them out, they lose their contract, and they're banned for life. Don't make excuses and play around with these guys. They know they're doing wrong.

If it comes to light through admission, or a tell all, strip any records held, and ban the sob for life. :thumbdown

Enough said, over and done. Lets clean up the game and get back to America's national pass time. :thumbup1:

That's my 2 cents.

That's the thing. If you were to do this to baseball players, much less NFL, NHL, NBA etc. players, professional sports would end as we know them. If every single athlete were tested, the results would AMAZE you.

Here's a hint: It ain't just the big hulking guys that are the ones juicing. Steroid are a huge problem now in HIGHSCHOOL, imagine what they're like at the college and professional level.

Steroids have been rampant in professional sports for many years now. You're likely to find juicers in any sport that requires strength or endurance. Just because a few guys were called out by Canseco doesn't mean they're the only ones guilty.

[richmondesi]

Yeah, I hate to be a bearer of bad news, but there are so many guys that none of you have ever heard of that are in the Bigs that I personally know used steroids... That's what the game is/was. I'm not saying that it was everyone, but it was a significant percentage... In fact, "Vitamin S" was a common joke in the clubhouse. If you have a problem with guys who used, you might want to stop watching for a generation:thumbdown

[SRock]

I've been a Pirates fan since I was a kid. If steroids would get them a pennant, not only would I support their use, I'd fly to Pittsburgh and administer the injections myself.
For a trip to the series, I'd help them extract the HGH.

:lol:


Lets just cut to the chase, no pussy footing or fooling around. Test every player, if they're dirty throw them out, they lose their contract, and they're banned for life. Don't make excuses and play around with these guys. They know they're doing wrong.

If it comes to light through admission, or a tell all, strip any records held, and ban the sob for life. :thumbdown

Enough said, over and done. Lets clean up the game and get back to America's national pass time. :thumbup1:

That's my 2 cents.

+1


Yeah, I hate to be a bearer of bad news, but there are so many guys that none of you have ever heard of that are in the Bigs that I personally know used steroids... That's what the game is/was. I'm not saying that it was everyone, but it was a significant percentage... In fact, "Vitamin S" was a common joke in the clubhouse. If you have a problem with guys who used, you might want to stop watching for a generation:thumbdown

Paul! I was waiting for you to chime in. I don't doubt this one bit, in any sport. I just think there needs to be a consensus, either allow it or don't. Either make it acceptable or severely punish those who do it. We should have one way or the other and get past the books, hearings and time wasted on the nightly news!

[ratcheer]

It's because I love baseball that I'm upset with the "stars" of the steroid era, and I think some of the other posters feel the same way.

+1, baseball is by far my favorite sport. I am angry because money has ruined the game. When you get right down to it, money is the root cause of baseball players taking steroids.

Tim

[richmondesi]

:lol:



+1



Paul! I was waiting for you to chime in. I don't doubt this one bit, in any sport. I just think there needs to be a consensus, either allow it or don't. Either make it acceptable or severely punish those who do it. We should have one way or the other and get past the books, hearings and time wasted on the nightly news!

That's the point, I would like to make. It's laughable to think that just because Jose Canseco or Brian McNemee didn't "out" someone that they are clean... IMHO, you either have to let everyone in who had a HoF worthy career, or you have to keep everyone out from the era.

[Amer]

They need to implement a system like the NHL.

In the NHL, each team is randomly tested either once, twice, or three times a year. Each year is different for each team.

The Blues have been tested twice this year so far and the possibility of a third test looms over their heads. Teams don't know how many times they will be tested and the possibility is always there.

Of course they aren't yet tested during playoffs and off season, but they are talking about changing that.

[richmondesi]

They need to implement a system like the NHL.

In the NHL, each team is randomly tested either once, twice, or three times a year. Each year is different for each team.

The Blues have been tested twice this year so far and the possibility of a third test looms over their heads. Teams don't know how many times they will be tested and the possibility is always there.

Of course they aren't yet tested during playoffs and off season, but they are talking about changing that.

How would this help when the guys were using stuff that the testing wouldn't detect?

[johsa]

I cannot see why the US don't adopt international regulations with minimum of two years of suspension for first offense and banned for life for second offense.

There is enough money in NFL, MLB and NHL to make sure that _all_ players are thoroughly tested in season and off season.

[richmondesi]

I cannot see why the US don't adopt international regulations with minimum of two years of suspension for first offense and banned for life for second offense.

There is enough money in NFL, MLB and NHL to make sure that _all_ players are thoroughly tested in season and off season.

Because you'd have to apply the same penalties to every profession if the government gets involved. You can't have the government passing laws that only punish certain groups more harshly than others for the same crime. Let's face it, that's exactly what it was: criminal behavior

[redbike]

FACT: No athletes are tested as rigorously for PEDs as professional cyclists. Here's (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pereiro-undergoes-dope-control-in-restaurant-corridor) a story from Cycling News about a recent test of a top cyclist. It took place in a corridor in a restaurant where the cyclist was dining with friends. He had to provide on the spot blood and urine samples. Even with this level of intrusiveness, cycling still has ongoing problems with riders trying to beat the testing regimen. Until other pro athletes are forced to comply with comparable procedures, there will be rampant PED use in pro sports.

[richmondesi]

FACT: No athletes are tested as rigorously for PEDs as professional cyclists. Here's (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pereiro-undergoes-dope-control-in-restaurant-corridor) a story from Cycling News about a recent test of a top cyclist. It took place in a corridor in a restaurant where the cyclist was dining with friends. He had to provide on the spot blood and urine samples. Even with this level of intrusiveness, cycling still has ongoing problems with riders trying to beat the testing regimen. Until other pro athletes are forced to comply with comparable procedures, there will be rampant PED use in pro sports.

We had similar situations (not nearly as embarrassing) that I can recall. People got called all the time and had to get tested at weird times in the off-season. These tests still don't detect everything, and it doesn't stop the guys who are really wanting to cheat:thumbdown

[curtis909]

It's all about the money. Selig is/was an owner, not the independent kind of commissioner the business needs. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc., sold a lot of tickets for the owners, and the owners made them very wealthy in return. In the long run, I think they'll sell more tickets if the fans think the game is honest (but that may be very naive on my part).

A huge +1

[knlgskr]

Because you'd have to apply the same penalties to every profession if the government gets involved. You can't have the government passing laws that only punish certain groups more harshly than others for the same crime. Let's face it, that's exactly what it was: criminal behavior

Is steroid use/abuse the bailiwick of the government? Do we want our tax dollars used? Do we want more government involvement? It would seem that the government has more important issues on its agenda to occupy its time. Why not let the various organizations involved in steroid useage decide for themselves how they shall deal with the situation(s)?

[redbike]

We had similar situations (not nearly as embarrassing) that I can recall. People got called all the time and had to get tested at weird times in the off-season. These tests still don't detect everything, and it doesn't stop the guys who are really wanting to cheat:thumbdown

What sport and at what level?

[curtis909]

+1. Similar to Barry Bonds:

http://www.daviddylanthomas.com/wp-content/uploads/blog/barrybonds2.jpg

Where does one buy an air hose that will blow you up that big....:wink2:

[richmondesi]

Is steroid use/abuse the bailiwick of the government? Do we want our tax dollars used? Do we want more government involvement? It would seem that the government has more important issues on its agenda to occupy its time. Why not let the various organizations involved in steroid useage decide for themselves how they shall deal with the situation(s)?

That's what I was saying. If you read the post that I was replying to, the question was asked why the US can't do whatever... My response is that you don't want the government coming in and imposing such strict penalties because we can't have them applying only to professional athletes and not other types of professionals.


What sport and at what level?

Baseball: College and Pro

[johsa]

What I meant was not "Why don't the US do something about this". What I mean is that enforcing policies on steroid abuse should be enforced by NFL, NHL, MLB etc.

The international practice has been 2 years suspension for first offense, life for second. Almost all European sport government bodies follows this as the minimum.

What strikes me about some of the American sports is no off season testing, limited testing during season and suspensions for a very short time. A month suspension of something like that sends a very clear picture that this is not taken seriously.

By implementing in season and off season with a minimum suspension of two years for example in the MLB would send a much more serious message about trying to keep the sport clean. Of course this should be financed by MLB.

[richmondesi]

As I mentioned earlier, there is offseason testingin baseball...

[redbike]

That's what I was saying. If you read the post that I was replying to, the question was asked why the US can't do whatever... My response is that you don't want the government coming in and imposing such strict penalties because we can't have them applying only to professional athletes and not other types of professionals.



Baseball: College and Pro

Paul,

Thanks for the response. If there is off season testing, do you know how it compares to what exists in cycling? It's my impression, based only on limited information, that testing positive for PEDs in MLB is not common. Is that because the testing regimen isn't rigorous, or because there isn't much PED use?

jim

[richmondesi]

Paul,

Thanks for the response. If there is off season testing, do you know how it compares to what exists in cycling? It's my impression, based only on limited information, that testing positive for PEDs in MLB is not common. Is that because the testing regimen isn't rigorous, or because there isn't much PED use?

jim

It's not as vigorous, I'm sure, but it's always been in Professional baseball (up until recently, there wasn't any testing of players on the 40-man roster), but there was random, off-season & in-season testing of all levels below that. Now there is testing throughout all of baseball, college included. The point that I've made though is that irrespective of when and how often testing is done, there are designer steroids that CANNOT be found by current testing methodology... More testing isn't necessarily the answer. That's the point I was making.

[Euclid]

I think McGuire was saying that steroids dont help you hit a baseball, but they do turn a long fly ball out into a homerun reguardless if you can hit a curve or not. McGuire, Bonds, Giambi, A-rod, were all tremendous hitters before they juiced, especialy barry bonds. Also i dont really buy the whole, taking steriods to help you get better thing. They create horrific side effects, hormonal imballances, I even recall a few friends of mine witnessing a guy having a brain hemmorage in a weight room after he juiced up.That could just be scuttlebutt, however the guys in question arent prone to exaggeration so ill give it a bit of credence.

I also dont have a ton of faith in drug testing, at least on the NCAA level. We used to have mandatory random drug tests once amonth at my school, no one ever popped positive on them even though im pretty certian a few of the guys were jucing and known cannabis users. Ive never taken them but its tempting. Im not a huge dude, im 5'10 235 lbs, just the physics of my levers inhibit how far i can throw a discus or a javalin. Short arms short distance, so of course its tempting to juice up in the offseason when we dont have drug testing, if i did id probably put 20 feet on my discus throw in one offseason. Im pretty sure one of our shot thowers is on the stuff. Kay (name changed for obvious reasons) was already big dude, 160 foot disc throw, 53 foot shot, in one offseason he put on a bout 25 lbs of muscle and now is throwing national marks. Its very discouraging to see him cheat and blow my ass out of the water when i spend hours trying to do it the right way and cant keep up. I mean, i spent 3 hours a day at the track last semester freezing my ass off in the discus ring, probably another 2 running or lifting so I could improve enough to get a berth to the national track meet this year. Might happen still, might not, Kay is going to nationals in 2 events for sure, probably going to indoor and outdoor with shot. This is where Canseco's and everyone elses argument of, oh well everyone is doing it im just doing it to keep up falls apart. It doest matter its cheating. If i did juice and won nationals, it would mean nothing to me because had to cheat to get it.

I think the most disturbing thing about all this is how avalile testostrone boosters/ Anabolics are. A drug store in town called the Drug Emporium has a whole slew of the stuff behind the counter, just ask for it and you can get it. its rediculous.

Steroids have probably done more to harm baseball then anything i can remember, if charlie hustle is banned from the hall, Bonds and A-rod should be too.

[richmondesi]

Steroids do improve vision and hand speed... they just do...

Steroids aren't all that dangerous when done in a smart way. I remember being in the outfield grass and having conversations about the benefits of steroids and how to appropriately cycle them to get the best effects and avoid drug testing... I've had similar conversations with MDs as well...

"of course, I'm not advocating steroid use... I'm just letting you guys know how to do it smart if you are going to" :001_rolle

[TickTock]

Being in the older crowd, I had a totally different impression of what this thread was going to be about before I read it.



Yeah, I thought it was going to be about a bunch of a--holes with problems. Oh wait. :biggrin1:

[SRock]

Steroids do improve vision and hand speed... they just do...

Steroids aren't all that dangerous when done in a smart way. I remember being in the outfield grass and having conversations about the benefits of steroids and how to appropriately cycle them to get the best effects and avoid drug testing... I've had similar conversations with MDs as well...

"of course, I'm not advocating steroid use... I'm just letting you guys know how to do it smart if you are going to" :001_rolle

I've known people who have done them before as well (wrestlers, fighters, body builders and even cops). :eek: I've also had the discussions with Dr.'s as well. The problem is so many get so into it and feel the effects ont heir body when they cycle off and they lose their minds and the ability to do it with some clear thinking. I've never done it, nor have I ever had the desire to do it simply because it is illegal. However, I have cycled various supplements over the years that were perfectly legal. I've see the benefits of legal supplements and know the let down of loss of strength/speed when you cycle off so I can only imagine that magnified by the gaining power of anabolics.

[knlgskr]

That's what I was saying. If you read the post that I was replying to, the question was asked why the US can't do whatever... My response is that you don't want the government coming in and imposing such strict penalties because we can't have them applying only to professional athletes and not other types of professionals.



Baseball: College and Pro

My apologies for plagirizing. Does anyone wonder if tigertakesem?

[lirijavdekje]

I still don't understand why people waste time watching sports. There are better things to do with your time.

[Obsessed]

I still don't understand why people waste time watching sports. There are better things to do with your time.

I think those of us frequenting the shaving website are in a pretty big glass house on this one. :001_tongu

[proxymoron]

I'm all for shaming players who are effectively cheating, but seriously. When McGuire cries himself to sleep at night, he's wiping his tears with hundred dollar bills... one for each tear.

[knlgskr]

I'm all for shaming players who are effectively cheating, but seriously. When McGuire cries himself to sleep at night, he's wiping his tears with hundred dollar bills... one for each tear.

Well said, good point, does anyone think those involved at all levels care about being caught? As long as the human race exists there will be cheating because it is more profitable to cheat than catch cheaters, new methods are constantly evolving, penalties for being caught are not severe enough to deter those who cheat. Does anyone know someone who would not cheat if the returns vs. the risks were great enough? Has/is integrity throughout the ages been a scarce commodity, a relative term, or is the seeming widespread lack thereof a recent phenomenon?

[Mr_Amazing]

Proxymoron makes a very valid point. These are people who have effectively built multi-million dollar careers from cheating. They are stealing the money of players in the game who have done it naturally. It is the ultimate me-first attitude. Not to mention the fact that it is illegal.

I can understand not wanting to get Congress involved, but at the same time, nobody else would. The United States has a pretty clear statement about the use of illegal drugs and these players are violating those laws. None of them are being punished by their employer, either. I think a lot of the outrage stems from the reality that if Average Joe started doing speed to be more efficient at work and his boss found out, it is almost guaranteed that Average Joe would lose his job. That isn't happening in MLB. MLB is not dealing with the problem. When that happens, a higher power has to. The sad reality is that I would wager a pretty penny that the billionaire owners likely didn't play by the rules in order to get where they got. It's sickening and unacceptable.

[knlgskr]

Proxymoron makes a very valid point. These are people who have effectively built multi-million dollar careers from cheating. They are stealing the money of players in the game who have done it naturally. It is the ultimate me-first attitude. Not to mention the fact that it is illegal.

I can understand not wanting to get Congress involved, but at the same time, nobody else would. The United States has a pretty clear statement about the use of illegal drugs and these players are violating those laws. None of them are being punished by their employer, either. I think a lot of the outrage stems from the reality that if Average Joe started doing speed to be more efficient at work and his boss found out, it is almost guaranteed that Average Joe would lose his job. That isn't happening in MLB. MLB is not dealing with the problem. When that happens, a higher power has to. The sad reality is that I would wager a pretty penny that the billionaire owners likely didn't play by the rules in order to get where they got. It's sickening and unacceptable.

Congress/billionaire owners, both probably got there the old-fashioned way; by cheating, etc. Hit home runs for the owner(s), make more money for the boss where you work, etc. do you think they care how as long as you do? Congress can't manage itself and its members can't manage themselves; how can they presume to do anything about better bodies/performance through chemistry? They probably have a lot of drug users/abusers in their ranks and their solution would probably be to throw taxpapers money at the problem with about the same results they usually get when they try to regulate anything. Besides, nothing will happen until it become un/less profitable for those involved and that seems unlikely in the forseeable future. Canseco should have offered to remain quiet if the price is/was right instead of writing a book i.e. like the Tigergroupies "where's mine". Better you should ask which sports are clean rather than those which are not. Probably the only reason this didn't take place long ago is because it wasn't available.

[Wendy]

Is anyone really surprised by this information? It happens, it has happened and it will continue to happen. Is there any honor in it, absolutely not. Should he get into the HoF, no. That's that. Sorry Cardinal fans, not only is your hero a fake/fraud but he has no integrity. Some will argue that 'he told the truth' or that 'in the end he did the right thing' that doesn't change the fact that he lied to his fans and he lied to congress. How long did it take for the right thing to surface.


I do not know that anyone would be surprised about Mark using. The way he hit the ball was unreal. I am a Cards fan but I do not condone his actions. I am happy he did come forward but it was a little too late.

[Manco]

Roids give you saggy titties and a biiiig belly.

[Wendy]

FACT: No athletes are tested as rigorously for PEDs as professional cyclists. Here's (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pereiro-undergoes-dope-control-in-restaurant-corridor) a story from Cycling News about a recent test of a top cyclist. It took place in a corridor in a restaurant where the cyclist was dining with friends. He had to provide on the spot blood and urine samples. Even with this level of intrusiveness, cycling still has ongoing problems with riders trying to beat the testing regimen. Until other pro athletes are forced to comply with comparable procedures, there will be rampant PED use in pro sports.

That is absolutely embarrassing for the sport. That is way over the line.