Anyone into juicing (fruits/vegetables)?

[TstebinsB]

A few years back my father had some health issues and ever since he tries to eat mostly organic, definitely natural, foods. One of the best ways to consume natural fruits and vegetables is through a juicer. It can be tedious setting up a juicing machine, using it, then cleaning it. But just like wet shaving, if it's important enough to you, you will take the necessary steps to do it. For most people, like myself, juicing allows one to actually get the daily amount of fruits and vegetables one needs because it's in an easier form to digest - liquid. Try to eat 5 whole carrots, 7 celery stalks, and 3 apples in one sitting. I can juice that much and drink it in one sitting. The thing most people don't realize is that most fruits and vegetables juiced are actually very sweet. Obviously, it's easier to drink something that tastes good. You do need to eat solid foods though because of the fiber they have. To my knowledge, only grass products have a high fiber content in liquid form. One of the most popular juicing foods is wheatgrass. Wheatgrass is essentially the super vegetable. It has by far more vitamins and minerals than just about any food. However, the human body can only consume it in liquid form... thus, the need for a (specific) juicer.

Raw foodists - those who believe that cooked food loses most if not all the nutrients raw food still has - are big proponents of juicing. The belief postulates that if bacteria in food can be killed or broken down with heat, so can necessary nutrients. Thus, if they can help it, they eat everything raw or steamed. That's the extreme form of juicing and healthy eating.

Dr. Max Gerson (famed cancer specialist) believed that just about any disease could be cured through very strict, healthy eating, especially from juicing. The health institute in his name treats patients with terminally-ill diseases through juicing and other methods (I'll mention some other time). Most of us have no motivation to follow as strict a diet as he preaches but the terminally ill, with no other hope, definitely follow it. I'm not qualified to support that blanket statement but I can attest to how some people seemingly have been cured of ill-fated diseases because I know some people personally. I'm not saying juicing WILL cure what ails you. However, healthy eating (or drinking) never hurt.

I put all that info on juicing for those unfamiliar to it. This is really a thread for questions, comments, and recipes... on juicing :scared: duh duh duuuhhhh!

[Scotto]

Never could get into it. My sister is vegan and does juices, but it just turns me off. Wheatgrass? Vile. Why destroy a perfectly good piece of fruit or veg? I'll take the whole thing, fiber and all.

As for the whole raw food thing, the nutrients in some (not all) foods are actually unlocked by heat, so eating everything raw isn't as good as it is cracked up to be.

[TraderJoe]

Yeah, I juice....not often as I should however.

I have a VitaMix blender, which I feel is the best out there and ideal for juicing.


Here's one of my favorite recipes (everything eye-balled, no need to be exact):

cup or so of apple juice (martinelli's)
whole orange (peeled)
1/5 of a lemon (peeled)
one apple (cut, but not cored)
one banana (cut into pieces)
cup or so of frozen/fresh strawberries
some pineapple
a dozen or so baby carrots (or equivalent amount of reg. carrots)
whole, raw oatmeal (to taste - and only if desired)
mango (if available, not necessary)
5-6 ice cubes

[rikrdo]

Ive got 1.
Used to use it 3-4 times a week but lost interest.
Hard to clean...PITA to keep enough produce in the house all the time and.....
I NEVER FELT ANY DIFFERENT when I was juicing.
So.....FWIW YMMV IMHO.

[TraderJoe]

I find my VitaMix very easy to clean...because of its high power, it actually acts as its own washing machine. All you do is rinse it out a little, then add some dishwashing soap and hot water....put that puppy on high and let it roll for a few minutes.

All good.

[rikrdo]

Ive got the centrifuge design...cant remember the brand right now..
I hate the filters they recommend and if you dont use them all the pulp and remnants get stuck in the screen and blade.
I guess if I felt better by juicing I'd continue doing it ...but I dont !!
Oh well. Too bad I'll miss out on the "drooling years" !

[matt_curran]

I've been juicing for a while and love it! One of my regular drinks is the following:

3-4 Carrots
1 Beet
2 Apples Granny Smith
1/4 of a Red Cabbage
5 sprigs of Parsley
1 piece of ginger

Juice together and enjoy!

Matt

[MCsommerreid]

I love juice for the reason stated by the OP. Eating the proper number of whole fruits and vegetables a day is just a pain in the neck.

Plus with juice you can create 'health tonics'. Yerba mate has a totally disgusting flavor taken traditionally, but mix it with some orange juice and you have a energy drink amazingly high in anti-oxidants and vitamins that doesnt taste like you're drinking a tree.

[TstebinsB]

Ive got 1.
Used to use it 3-4 times a week but lost interest.
Hard to clean...PITA to keep enough produce in the house all the time and.....
I NEVER FELT ANY DIFFERENT when I was juicing.
So.....FWIW YMMV IMHO.

Juicing isn't like drug use; you're not going to get a high of some sort. Juicing isn't a medical drug; it's not a quick fix. They are after all just fruits and vegetables. It's like working out. If you do it for a week or two, while having late night burgers and cakes, you won't really have any discernible results. You do it for two months and without cheating, and you'll get those results. What are those results, regarding juicing? At worst you get an energy boost. At best you improve your health in a variety of ways.

I will agree that you do need plenty of produce to use it. I have a Latin American (read farming) background with a strong emphasis on produce and eating healthy. I wouldn't be able to handle anything but a lot of fresh foods. For some people, that alone is a big adjustment.

[Mr.Benn]

Never could get into it. My sister is vegan and does juices, but it just turns me off. Wheatgrass? Vile. Why destroy a perfectly good piece of fruit or veg? I'll take the whole thing, fiber and all.

As for the whole raw food thing, the nutrients in some (not all) foods are actually unlocked by heat, so eating everything raw isn't as good as it is cracked up to be.

Indeed, there's no shortage of quackery surrounding the wonders of juicing (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/juicing.html):


Another proponent of juicing is Michael Murray, N.D., a naturopathic educator. In The Complete Book of Juicing, he recommends juices for treating scores of ailments. He also advises everyone to use supplements because "even the most dedicated health advocate . . . cannot possibly meet the tremendous nutritional requirements for optimum health through diet alone." [2]

The above notions are nonsensical. Uncooked (or fresh-frozen) foods, alone or combined as Kordich suggests, can be a valuable component of a balanced diet. However, they do not "flush the body of toxins, "energize the body," or alleviate any of the diseases or conditions as Kordich or Murray claim. Nor is it correct that juices can strengthen the immune system or the body as a whole. The enzymes in plants help regulate the metabolic function of plants. When ingested, they do not act as enzymes within the human body, because they are digested rather than absorbed intact into the body. "Organically grown (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/organic.html)" foods cost more but are neither safer nor more nutritious than conventionally grown foods. And sensible eating, which is not difficult to do, furnishes an adequate nutrient supply.

Juice extractors cut food into tiny pieces that are then spun to separate the juice from the fiber-containing pulp. They tend to be bothersome to clean [3]. Ordinary juicer machines leave the pulp in the juice. Since the fiber in fruits and vegetables is an important part of a balanced diet, there is no reason to remove it while making juice. There's nothing wrong with including extracted juices in a diet that is adequate in fiber. But promoting them as alternatives to whole foods or as powerful healing agents is irresponsible.

That's not to say juicing is a bad thing, only that the health claims made by those who sell juicers and juice diet books and the like are often completely without merit.

[SA_bmatth]

But read the talk pages at Wikipedia for the good doctor and his treatment. It's obvious that Quackwatch is a front group shilling for BigPharma™. Dontchaknow.

/sarcasm

[Woknblues]

but I do like smoothies. I find with juicing, you gotta clean the damn thing up, next, one of the most important ingredients go away with juicing, and that is fiber. I put a handful of ice, homemade yogurt, a piece of fruit (banana is the best i think),a vegetable like celery or a carrot, and a scoop of powdered milk (or a spoon of peanut butter) or something like that makes a great tasting and nutritious mid meal snack. blenders are easy to clean and good ones will completely liquefy everything, within reason. I just can't see tossing out all that good fiber, when our modern diets are so lacking in it.

[TstebinsB]

As a person into juicing, I know more quacks than I'd care to admit. However, I do know people personally that have been cured of serious diseases from doing natural things, which includes juicing. These people wouldn't care how many idiots out there hurt the credibility of juicing. They know what it did for them and that's all they care about.

There are numerous clinics in the US and in Latin America (because natural foods are readily available) where terminally-ill patients go spend 6 months to 2 years. These people have tried medical solutions and nothing has worked. As a last resort, they go to these clinics. At these clinics, you aren't allowed to eat anything unhealthy - EVER. It's like going to rehab. You juice a minimum of 4-5 times a day, you eat mostly steamed food, and you only eat chicken or fish. You take herbal multivitamins and drink a lot of water. This is essentially a dietary detox.

The other important aspect is colon hydrotherapy (colonics). This will sound very weird but I'll try to explain it. During normal body function, all solid wastes and toxins leave the body through the colon. When the liver, pancreas, large intestine (colon), and small intestine become overwhelmed with too many wastes for them to handle (alcohol, drugs, fatty, fried, and sweet foods), these toxins are reintroduced back into your bloodstream (more than usually). Since they were supposed to leave the body, coming back is obviously not a good thing. The colon (large intestine) is the last point before excretion. With too many wastes for it to handle, these wastes start to line the inner walls of the colon. This poses two issues: those wastes/bacteria stay to infest your body and it makes it harder for new wastes/bacteria to get through the smaller passageway.

Colon hydrotherapy is the process of putting a tube at the edge of your anus and using a dedicated plumbing system, shooting water up your colon to dislodge old, residual wastes. Overa a 2-3 month span, without wastes in the way, your metabolism improves. Without extra wastes/bacteria just hanging around your colon, your health improves. This is going to sound funny but Anna Nicole Smith credits colonics with losing weight (she's not my reason to believe, just an example). In fact, many celebrities get it done regularly to purge all the crap they put in their bodies.

A person who is generally healthy won't go to these clinics, he/she wouldn't need to. I think everyone could benefit from juicing and hydrotherapy but it's not that serious. But a person in a do or die situation has nothing to lose. I worked with a forensic biologist every summer for 3 years. I have seen how shriveled and clogged a human colon can be, with all the trimmings of wastes still in it. The repulsiveness of the image never gets old.

I'd be the first to admit I don't even use my juicer all the time. But my laziness isn't an indictment on its efficacy.

[straycat264]

but I do like smoothies. I find with juicing, you gotta clean the damn thing up, next, one of the most important ingredients go away with juicing, and that is fiber.

We started off down the juicing route, rapidly reached the same conclusions as you, and replaced the juicer with a blender - these days, we don't add anything except fruit pieces (we do juice oranges, but nothing else) - and the results make for a fantastic breakfast. Then, of course, I ruin the healthy aspect of it by guzzling far too much coffee, but no-one's perfect... :rolleyes:

[htownmmm]

This is something I have been debating for some time(would it have something to do with the equipment???Hmmmm....)

I know it would be beneficial to add this to my lifestyle, but i want to be sure about which juicer to purchase: ease of cleaning;loads of power; and wide opening.

So help me out here because RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! I know I am going to buy a juicer-just not which one!


Marty

[TraderJoe]

So help me out here because RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! I know I am going to buy a juicer-just not which one!


Marty


Marty - thats an easy one. Get the VitaMix...its the absolute best out there (and most versatile). Not just a juicer, can be used to do smoothies, soups, just about anything. Also cleans itself. Highest powered motor too :biggrin: The high-powered motor is what enables it to "cook/heat" soups and clean itself.

[TstebinsB]

This is something I have been debating for some time(would it have something to do with the equipment???Hmmmm....)

I know it would be beneficial to add this to my lifestyle, but i want to be sure about which juicer to purchase: ease of cleaning;loads of power; and wide opening.

So help me out here because RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! I know I am going to buy a juicer-just not which one!


Marty

I have the Green Star juicer. Like the Vitamix line, anything that should/could be juiced, the Green Star does it. I think the Vitamax is easier to dis/assemble and the Green Star needs accessories to do some of the things Vitamix does. Just know that any good juicer/blender is expensive.

[Scotto]

Too much information on the colon in this thread for me. :eek: :wink:

[TstebinsB]

Too much information on the colon in this thread for me. :eek: :wink:

I didn't want to bring out the colon card but I wanted to put juicing within a larger context of things people do to improve their health.

[Woknblues]

Too much information on the colon in this thread for me. :eek: :wink:

funny you should mention that, i actually modded my response before sending it out when I gave a second look at my Too_Much_Information fiber rant. Lets just leave it at that!

[TstebinsB]

Too much information on the colon in this thread for me. :eek: :wink:

I haven't gotten to that level myself.. just a plain juicer here. I only mentioned it because I didn't want people to think that I was saying juicing alone is what helped these people.

[SSLStudio]

Im more of a Smoothie type.

Yoghurt with banana , pieces of Peach etc.

I was looking deeply into the juicing aspect 2 years ago , the point of the $$$ juicers is to not get too hot as to ruin nutrients in the final product and the way a juicer works to get the juice out of a fruit is what makes it $$$ aswell. not all juicer work alike and only a few can juice like anything like weathgrass, leafes.

I mainly want to get a juicer for juicing Carrots , I own a Kitchenaind Blender I have no idea what would happen If I throw some carrots in it and use the Liquify setting ?

Some use the juicer to make their own peanut butter ,and or frozen ice dessert .

About the Colon story is there any other way of cleaning old waiste thats been building up besised that graphic story ,like taking special medication ?

[htownmmm]

Marty - thats an easy one. Get the VitaMix...its the absolute best out there (and most versatile). Not just a juicer, can be used to do smoothies, soups, just about anything. Also cleans itself. Highest powered motor too :biggrin: The high-powered motor is what enables it to "cook/heat" soups and clean itself.


I have the Green Star juicer. Like the Vitamix line, anything that should/could be juiced, the Green Star does it. I think the Vitamax is easier to dis/assemble and the Green Star needs accessories to do some of the things Vitamix does. Just know that any good juicer/blender is expensive.

Tyx for the info guys-now I know what to look for!

Marty

[TstebinsB]

About the Colon story is there any other way of cleaning old waiste thats been building up besised that graphic story ,like taking special medication ?

Some people take colon cleansing products. They can be single ingredient products like cascara sagrada and psyllium hull/husk or herbal blends from companies like Dr. Natura and Nature's Sunshine. The single herbs are very potent and very good; the blends are not so much IMHO. With all these things, it's about drinking tons of water. If you don't drink at least 96oz. or 3/4 gallon of water, it'll just clog up your system.

[Mr.Benn]

FWIW, it would seem that "colonics" is mostly quackery, too (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/gastro.html):


In 1985, a California judge ruled that colonic irrigation is an invasive medical procedure that may not be performed by chiropractors and the California Health Department's Infectious Disease Branch stated: "The practice of colonic irrigation by chiropractors, physical therapists, or physicians should cease. Colonic irrigation can do no good, only harm." The National Council Against Health Fraud agrees.

The National Council Against Health Fraud actually refers to it as a "health fetish" (http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/colonic.html).

[Dave_D]

This is a great thread.
I have a Champion juicer that is built like a tank and works great, new version of an old design. Certain times of the year have an abundance of produce and the juicer helps me take advantage of that, it isnt picky about blemished produce, just wash it, cut out the bad spots and throw it in. 3/4 horsepower of shredding juicing mojo baby! :biggrin:

As I get older, paying attention to my diet and exercise regimen has taken on a new priority in my life. Ive been pretty open minded about researching what works and what not, and it has been worth it. What has been alarming to see are the increasing numbers of people much younger than I who are very close to having one foot in the grave. The time to get the clue on this is now!

[TraderJoe]

3/4 horsepower of shredding juicing mojo baby! :biggrin:

VitaMix = 2 HP :wink: :biggrin:

[TstebinsB]

FWIW, it would seem that "colonics" is mostly quackery, too (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/gastro.html):



The National Council Against Health Fraud actually refers to it as a "health fetish" (http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/colonic.html).

A few points to consider:
- Though thought to be interchangeable, Colonics and Colon Hydrotherapy are two different things. Colonics (without me explaining in detail) is self-administered mostly using very rudimentary equpiment, with no training needed. Colon Hydrotherapy uses equipment made by medical companies and performed by a trained technician. Of course, as with anything, it's safe when used by a professional.

- The article uses info from 1927 to 1991. Fifteen years is way too long ago to gage the current practice. "Studies in the 1920s.. Studies in the 1930s.. " are useless. "Yogurt was said to create a friendlier form of bacteria." Yogurt DOES create good bacteria for the intestinal tract. I could show you that in medical journals or on WebMD. In the 1991 survery, 11 of 36 doctors considered it to be a "practice of medicine" and "the others either had no position or made vague comments." If you ask me, the people who knew what it was saw it as medicinal while those ignorant of it had nothing to contribute.

- "The ideas of "cleansing" and "detoxification" have no physiological significance." Anyone who has ever helped or participated in drug and/or alcohol treatment knows those two words have serious meanings for people in withdrawal.

- Lastly, most medical doctors do not endorse or support herbal or alternative medicine in any capacity. I know that after taking Accutane (6 months) and dozens of other treatments for my severe acne and they didn't work, the only thing that ever worked for me was an herbal supplement. I was desperate so I was strict with my diet, I drank plenty of water, and I took the pills. The only reason my medical doctor believed me about the herbal supplement was that his prescribed medication had not worked but my face was so much better.


I really did mean for this thread to be about juicing. Honest.

[Mr.Benn]

A few points to consider:
- Though thought to be interchangeable, Colonics and Colon Hydrotherapy are two different things. Colonics (without me explaining in detail) is self-administered mostly using very rudimentary equpiment, with no training needed. Colon Hydrotherapy uses equipment made by medical companies and performed by a trained technician. Of course, as with anything, it's safe when used by a professional.

From the Legal Action section of the quackwatch.org article I linked to above (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/gastro.html):


Legal Action

The FDA classifies colonic irrigation systems as Class III devices that cannot be legally marketed except for medically indicated colon cleansing (such as before a radiologic endocopic examination). No system has been approved for "routine" colon cleansing to promote the general well being of a patient.

That seems pretty clear cut to me -- whether you call it "colonics" or "colonic hydrotherapy", no system has been approved for "routine" colon cleansing to promote the general well being of a patient.

And just above that:


Colonic irrigation, which also can be expensive, has considerable potential for harm. The process can be very uncomfortable, since the presence of the tube can induce severe cramps and pain. If the equipment is not adequately sterilized between treatments, disease germs from one person's large intestine can be transmitted to others. Several outbreaks of serious infections have been reported, including one in which contaminated equipment caused amebiasis in 36 people, 6 of whom died following bowel perforation [7-9]. Cases of heart failure (from excessive fluid absorption into the bloodstream) and electrolyte imbalance have also been reported [10]. Yet no license or training is required to operate a colonic-irrigation device.

So I'm not sure what the training is you refer to.


- The article uses info from 1927 to 1991. Fifteen years is way too long ago to gage the current practice. "Studies in the 1920s.. Studies in the 1930s.. " are useless.

Scientific evidence cannot be dismissed based on nothing more than its age. Archimedes' Principle is no less valid and useful today simply because it was first observed in 250 BC.


"Yogurt was said to create a friendlier form of bacteria." Yogurt DOES create good bacteria for the intestinal tract. I could show you that in medical journals or on WebMD.

You're quoting out of context -- the article doesn't deny that yogurt may contain beneficial forms of bacteria, but rather whether it has anything to do with intestinal toxicity.


In the 1991 survery, 11 of 36 doctors considered it to be a "practice of medicine" and "the others either had no position or made vague comments." If you ask me, the people who knew what it was saw it as medicinal while those ignorant of it had nothing to contribute.

Which only reinforces the claim of the article that it is poorly regulated.


- "The ideas of "cleansing" and "detoxification" have no physiological significance." Anyone who has ever helped or participated in drug and/or alcohol treatment knows those two words have serious meanings for people in withdrawal.

But we're not discussing treatments for drug and/or alcohol abuse. When you're talking about people whose physiology has specifically been altered by the poisonous substances they have ingested/inhaled/injected, obviously cleansing and detoxification have physiological significance. That doesn't mean non-alcohol/drug abusers should be paying to have overpriced enemas on a regular basis.


- Lastly, most medical doctors do not endorse or support herbal or alternative medicine in any capacity. I know that after taking Accutane (6 months) and dozens of other treatments for my severe acne and they didn't work, the only thing that ever worked for me was an herbal supplement. I was desperate so I was strict with my diet, I drank plenty of water, and I took the pills. The only reason my medical doctor believed me about the herbal supplement was that his prescribed medication had not worked but my face was so much better.

That's because there's typically very little evidence proving the safety and efficacy of herbal/alternative medicine. Before gaining FDA approval, new treatments must be proven safe and effective by controlled clinical trials. This means results observed in patients receiving the treatment are compared with the results in similar patients receiving a different treatment or placebo (inactive) treatment. Usually neither patients nor researchers know who is receiving the therapy under study. Would you not agree that such standards are preferable when it comes to the approval of medical treatments with considerable potential for harm, rather than mere anecdotal evidence (e.g. the herbal acne treatment)?

Now, maybe it's all just an elaborate conspiracy against herbal/alternative medicine. Or maybe herbal/alternative medicine isn't particularly safe and effective. This being a shaving forum and all, I tend to favour the principle of Ockham's Razor.

[TstebinsB]

FWIW, it would seem that "colonics" is mostly quackery, too (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/gastro.html):

The National Council Against Health Fraud actually refers to it as a "health fetish" (http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/colonic.html).

Coincidentally, both Dr. Barrett and NCAHF were plaitiffs in the case of National Council Against Health Fraud, Inc. v. King Bio Pharmaceuticals, Inc. (2003), Cal.App.4th. In a 2001 case, Barrett and NCAHF filed a suit against an herbal supplement company for false advertisement and many medical malpractice/fraud claims. They lost the case and appealed in 2003. They lost that one too. The court found that Barrett and NCAHF weren't simply unqualified to make their claims but many of their claims were just wrong Here (http://fsnews.findlaw.com/cases/ca/caapp4th/slip/2003/b156585.html)is the case, if you actually want to read it.

1. Scientifc evidence can be dismissed when it is no longer appropiate. If colon hydrotherapy was done one way 70-80 years ago or even 10 years ago, but is done a completely different way today, you can't apply the old results to the current practice. I haven't seen any large-scale studies done recently. Therefore, transplanting data would be speculation, at best.

2. As for quoting out of context, I did not do that. I understand the article "doesn't deny that yogurt may contain beneficial forms of bacteria" and is about "whether it has anything to do with intestinal toxicity." My point is that yogurt DOES in fact benefit intestinal toxicity. Furthermore, I can use medical journals from as recently as 2006 to support it.

3. Ignorance by doctors does not show poor regulation. I wouldn't expect a brain surgeon, however smart, to be versed in acupuncture. These alternative groups aren't regulated by any government agency, I admit, but the author's survey isn't enough to claim poor regulation. That assumes every medical doctor can/should competently discuss every medical procedure.

4. I think you'd agree that food can change your physiology. If you eat the wrong food, your cholesterol and blood pressure may go up. If you drink caffeinated coffee or eat sweet foods, you may get an energy boost. Your physiology has changed. For many people, to regain homeostasis they had to replace those foods with juices/soups/water AND have hydrotherapy done. I never said it was necessary. I said I know people that is has worked for when nothing else did.


When speaking about colon hydrotherapy, I said it was a last resort used by many people. For the committed or desperate, used with other things, they got results they couldn't get with conventional medicine and practice. I do believe it can work because I've seen it work for people. I think any procedure done by someone who doesn't know what he/she is doing, will always be dangerous. Since it's an inexact science, it's hard to teach or regulate. You can become dependent on your prescribed meds just as easily as colon cleansing products. You can get hurt just as easily during a medical doctor's procedure as in a hydrotherapy session. This doesn't give credibility to colon hydrotherapy but it also means naysayers shouldn't be so exacting in their disapproval.

[Mr.Benn]

Coincidentally, both Dr. Barrett and NCAHF were plaitiffs in the case of National Council Against Health Fraud, Inc. v. King Bio Pharmaceuticals, Inc. (2003), Cal.App.4th. In a 2001 case, Barrett and NCAHF filed a suit against an herbal supplement company for false advertisement and many medical malpractice/fraud claims. They lost the case and appealed in 2003. They lost that one too. The court found that Barrett and NCAHF weren't simply unqualified to make their claims but many of their claims were just wrong Here (http://fsnews.findlaw.com/cases/ca/caapp4th/slip/2003/b156585.html)is the case, if you actually want to read it.

Non sequitur. It's a legal ruling focused primarily on the NCAHF's (unsuccessful) attempts to change Californian law on unlawful competition/false advertising so as to shift the burden of proof to a defendant (i.e. forcing King Bio to back up the claims they made about the herbal supplements they were selling). It certainly doesn't prove the efficacy of colon cleansing/colonic hydrotherapy or the theories behind it.


1. Scientifc evidence can be dismissed when it is no longer appropiate. If colon hydrotherapy was done one way 70-80 years ago or even 10 years ago, but is done a completely different way today, you can't apply the old results to the current practice. I haven't seen any large-scale studies done recently. Therefore, transplanting data would be speculation, at best.

The "way it's done" makes absolutely no difference whatsoever if the theories behind the treatment are just as bogus today as they were in the 1920s. Those who advocate colon cleansing today present the exact same ficticious intestinal toxicity/autointoxication arguments as the quacks over 100 years ago. The fact remains, while colon cleansing may make some people feel better, it doesn't cure any disease and is no more effective at relieving discomfort than an enema.


2. As for quoting out of context, I did not do that. I understand the article "doesn't deny that yogurt may contain beneficial forms of bacteria" and is about "whether it has anything to do with intestinal toxicity." My point is that yogurt DOES in fact benefit intestinal toxicity. Furthermore, I can use medical journals from as recently as 2006 to support it.

You're still missing the point -- the intestinal toxicity/autointoxication theories behind colon cleansing are BOGUS. They were bogus in the 1920s and they're still bogus today. As for WebMD, here's what they say about colon cleansers (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/100/105845.htm):


Do Colon Cleansers Work?

Answer: The colon doesn't need to be "cleansed," and even if it did, herbal pills probably wouldn't do it.

The point being, whether it's done with yogurt, herbal pills, "hydrotherapy" or coffee enemas, the colon doesn't need to be "cleansed".


3. Ignorance by doctors does not show poor regulation. I wouldn't expect a brain surgeon, however smart, to be versed in acupuncture. These alternative groups aren't regulated by any government agency, I admit, but the author's survey isn't enough to claim poor regulation. That assumes every medical doctor can/should competently discuss every medical procedure.

The article wasn't merely referring to "doctors", but rather the medical examining boards in charge of licensing and/or filing charges against non-licensed people who engage in the activities defined by law as within their governance. Since only 11 out of the 36 examining boards surveyed even considered "colonic irrigation" as being within their purview, it's an indication that little regulation was taking place.

And we're not talking about doctor ignorance here, we're talking about the distinct lack of evidence from those making the extraordinary claims regarding the benefits of colon cleansing. A basic rule of science and logic is that the burden of proof is on the claimant. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. The burden of proof, therefore, is on the quacks and peddlers of "colon cleansers" and "colonic hydrotherapy".


4. I think you'd agree that food can change your physiology. If you eat the wrong food, your cholesterol and blood pressure may go up. If you drink caffeinated coffee or eat sweet foods, you may get an energy boost. Your physiology has changed. For many people, to regain homeostasis they had to replace those foods with juices/soups/water AND have hydrotherapy done. I never said it was necessary. I said I know people that is has worked for when nothing else did.


When speaking about colon hydrotherapy, I said it was a last resort used by many people. For the committed or desperate, used with other things, they got results they couldn't get with conventional medicine and practice. I do believe it can work because I've seen it work for people. I think any procedure done by someone who doesn't know what he/she is doing, will always be dangerous. Since it's an inexact science, it's hard to teach or regulate. You can become dependent on your prescribed meds just as easily as colon cleansing products. You can get hurt just as easily during a medical doctor's procedure as in a hydrotherapy session. This doesn't give credibility to colon hydrotherapy but it also means naysayers shouldn't be so exacting in their disapproval.

And as I said previously, mere anecdotal evidence is no substitute for controlled clinical trials when it comes to demonstrating the safety and efficacy of a medical treatment or procedure.

[TstebinsB]

You see it as quackery. I don't. Let's agree to disagree.

[Mr.Benn]

You see it as quackery. I don't. Let's agree to disagree.

Fair enough. :thumbup1:

[Panamag8or]

The only juicing going on in our house is Oranges, Tangerines and Tangelos from the trees about the yard. We still need a good coldsnap to sweeten up the fruit, then....fresh orange juice!:biggrin: