Straight razors hurt like hell...

[KP16356]

i'm new to straight razors, and the first thing i noticed is that these razors pull like hell. it feels as if either the shaving lather isn't lubricating sufficiently (it feels like my face is dry when i run the blade) or the razor isn't sharp enough. i don't think it's that the razor is sharp enough b/c this happened the first time i used the razor, and it's a brand-new Dovo prepared/honed by Tony Miller. i never have this problem with a DE - the blade glides effortlessly, but with the straight, it really doesn't move smoothly.

have any of you guys experienced the same thing? do you have pointers?

[Austin]

You may want to read Dr. Chris Moss basic guide to straight razors. Download the PDF file here:

http://www.shavemyface.com/index.php

[joel]

You are using the wrong angle. Start with the razor near flat against your face and as you pull down, slowly raise the spine further and further from your face (keeping the blade in contact with your skin, hopefully cutting hair). At a certain angle, it should feel smooth.... that is the angle at which you need to shave with.

[joel]

You are using the wrong angle. Start with the razor near flat against your face and as you pull down, slowly raise the spine further and further from your face (keeping the blade in contact with your skin, hopefully cutting hair). At a certain angle, it should feel smooth.... that is the angle at which you need to shave with.

Sorry, also - don't forget to use confident strokes with the blade. While you don't apply downward pressure (against your face) you do apply pressure in the direction of the razor stroke. Like "limp-wristing" a handgun - without a confident wrist, and a serious attitude - no matter how good the device - it will fail due to user error.

No matter how good/expensive/sharp a razor is.... with the wrong angles, and un-confident strokes it isn't going to work worth a damn.

Hope this helps.

[rtaylor61]

Did you strop the razor before shaving? If so, it's possible that you rolled the edge a bit.

Randy

[KP16356]

thanks for the suggestions. it is possible that i might be rolling the edge ever so slightly. i'm not used to rotating the the edge on its spine when stropping - i tend to lift the blade off the strop and flip it over for the other side - but i still keep the spine touching the leather on both sides so i don't think it would have rolled the edge but of course i could very well be wrong.

merry xmas everyone :smile:

[Scorpio]

You are using the wrong angle. Start with the razor near flat against your face and as you pull down, slowly raise the spine further and further from your face (keeping the blade in contact with your skin, hopefully cutting hair). At a certain angle, it should feel smooth.... that is the angle at which you need to shave with.


This is great advise. Just wanted to add that I find that by lifting the spine about one spine width from the face I get the blade to glide. You should try and find what works best for you. Also use the recommended confident strokes. Be patient it will come around and you will be getting the best shaves.

Raf

[19george]

When I started to shave with a straight I also experienced similar problems, and I also immediately thought that there was something wrong with my equipment. Well, there wasn't, it was just my technique.

Be patient. Your technique will improve as you continue to shave with a straight. As it does your shaves will get better and better.

[joel]

thanks for the suggestions. it is possible that i might be rolling the edge ever so slightly. i'm not used to rotating the the edge on its spine when stropping - i tend to lift the blade off the strop and flip it over for the other side - but i still keep the spine touching the leather on both sides so i don't think it would have rolled the edge but of course i could very well be wrong.

merry xmas everyone :smile:

You can also roll the edge a number of different ways.... such as not having the strop totally taut, applying to much pressure, and so on and so forth. Are you using the X pattern? A common mistake for newbies is that when doing the X pattern they do not keep the razor and the pressure on it even as they make the X - in that initially the apply more pressure at the beginning of the stroke when there is more razor on the strop and as they pull down, the tendency is to not keep the razor totally flat, thus picking up the front EVER so slightly.

It is my opinion, way too much attention is paid to honing, and too little to stropping. Sure, honing can be tricky, and sure it is important - but it is my opinion stropping is infinitely more important - and here's why - stropping must be done DAILY, and if done properly it is my opinion with a good razor, and excellent stropping - you can go about 1 year without the blade needing to touch a hone. Now - there will be some experts who will disagree and say there is no way you can get a year outta one honing - but personally - I feel that is the biggest misnomer in the world of straight razor shaving. Basically - there is no "sex appeal" to stropping... the equipment isn't as expensive, rare, or "cool" - and it isn't as "manly" - think about it.... what's "cooler" making a razor sharp with a wide array of tools (read man tools :biggrin: ) OR keeping the razor sharp with periodic maintenance? Think of it like this... how often do you hear guys going into depth about changing their cars oil - and tips/tricks/recommendations/cool stories & skills/etc - involved in changing their cars oil? NOW - how many guys will drone on for months about how they fixed X and changed Y, and increased horsepower by 10%, and so on and so forth.... men like making changes more than performing "maintenance" as they can see immediate results, and a much larger difference/change. After all... how can you brag, show off, or sound cool talking about your "Stropmeister" abilities? Hell.... admit it.... it sounds downright funny.

Basically - think of it like the whole "launching a rocket to the moon" in that if you are off in your calculations by just 1 degree, you'll be WAY off target - or on a fine mechanical watch - supposedly the most precise/accurate man-made creations.... while a CSOC Chronometer certified watch is some crazy number like 99.9999% accurate, over the course of a month or two, that can translate into several minutes off... think about that (unchanged) for the course of a few years? The time would be radically off. I guess what I am trying to get at - is you strop the razor about what.... 5 times on the linen, and another 25 or so on the leather? 30 strops in a day.... 210 times a week, 900 times a month, 10,920 times a year. Even if you consider yourself pretty good at "stropping" - figure you are at 90% - even if you are at 90% (which I hate to be jerk here, but I highly doubt there are too many guys at that level (even with 15+ years of experience, as I have seen some of those guys stropping techniques in videos) you are still stropping incorrectly, and doing harm THREE times per day.... think about that.... that's 90 damn times a month..... and it doesn't take too many incorrect stroppings to start to dull an edge. Start to calculate the above numbers with the "average joe" who wakes up tired as all hell and just "strops" without paying too much attention... lets be mighty kind and give him a 50% success rate (figure - all it takes is not keeping the strop taught to earn yourself a 0% successful stropping rate) stropping poorly 15X a day, and 450X a month is gonna dull your blade.... period. (I mean come on... that's more than 5,000 incorrect strops per year - there is NO way one honing can overcome that)

Sure - unless you are REALLY terrible - a few days of bad stropping isn't going to make the blade flat dull... and sure it'll probably ruffle some feathers to say this.... but I don't care how good you can hone, I don't care how great your razor is, or how tough your beard is.... if you can strop properly - you can squeeze a years use (or damn near) from one honing.

To you straight razor "guru's" out there.... spend 2 weeks making a concerted effort to improve your stropping ability - and spend as much time practicing/engulfed in stropping as you initially did with honing and you have my word..... your blade will stay so much sharper, so much longer, it'll stun the ever living hell out of you. In fact.... I have noticed that by adding a touch of the white "chalk" dovo paste to the linen side of the strop - and stropping (of course with near perfect form) it on the linen 5 times or so a day... it'll actually SHARPEN and MAINTAIN the edge. I've got a 4 year old Dovo Genuine MOP Straight Razor that has only touched a hone once in its life (honed by me, a "non-pro") with about 1.5 years worth of shaves on it... and i've never even thought to touch it to a hone again, as it is still shaving as good as any of my fresh, "professionally" honed razors.

Long rant aside.... I am a BIG proponent of correct stropping, and personally feel a good strop and good stropping skills/abilities are far more important than an expensive hone, and hours spent honing. Send the razor out to have a "honemeister" sharpen it - get a good strop, a paddle strop with diamond paste, and it is my opinion that with correct stropping form, you'd never need to touch a hone ever again, as the pastes would be more than ample.

[AFDavis11]

Now thats a rant! I've been using simple ash from the fire place on linen and noticed my edges getting too sharp!

So how would you summarize the characteristics of "good" stropping?

Strop taught and flat, light touch, slow and steady, (or fast?) anything else?

[joel]

Now thats a rant! I've been using simple ash from the fire place on linen and noticed my edges getting too sharp!

So how would you summarize the characteristics of "good" stropping?

Strop taught and flat, light touch, slow and steady, (or fast?) anything else?

Well - good stropping to me is about as involved as honing is for most others. I might even go a little "overboard." For instance, I often notice that a lot of strops aren't perfectly flat, so depending on the strop - sometimes I will need to lap them. Personally - I feel the manner/hardware in which you hang your strop makes a difference as well, as well as the hardware on the strop. Just as it is so important when honing to have a perfectly flat surface - the same is to be said with stropping, at least, in my opinion. After I have flattened the strop (with books, hang with weight attached, then books again - but this time with a good dose of strop conditioner)

Once you are certain the strop is flat - hang it at about mid waist level (if it is too low, I find people add too much pressure as they "lean" into it). I like my strops to have a fair amount of draw - I am quite fond of Tony Millers Latigo Red strops (i've heard good things about Hand American - which I will try once they re-release them) and with a good strop, you'll get good draw, so I only put enough pressure on the razor to keep it on the strop (so it doesn't hop with the large amount of draw) - but even that "pressure" is mighty, mighty light. As far as stropping speed - I find a "medium" pace works best. Stropping too slow makes it difficult to maintain even pressure, and keep it steady, and stropping too fast often leads to angle lean, or too much pressure. Medium pace keeps the angle, maintains even pressure, and doesn't take forever :biggrin:

I have been meaning to get Nick to break out the Digital Camcorder to take a bunch of videos we've been meaning to do for awhile (but have been putting off :wink: ) I'll make sure to add stropping technique to the list.

[berzerkeleyan]

i'm new to straight razors, and the first thing i noticed is that these razors pull like hell. it feels as if either the shaving lather isn't lubricating sufficiently (it feels like my face is dry when i run the blade) or the razor isn't sharp enough. i don't think it's that the razor is sharp enough b/c this happened the first time i used the razor, and it's a brand-new Dovo prepared/honed by Tony Miller. i never have this problem with a DE - the blade glides effortlessly, but with the straight, it really doesn't move smoothly.


Exact same razor, exact same merchant (not at all a knock on Tony), exact same sensation, exact same result for me this morning.

I will take all the suggestions on this thread and apply them tomorrow. Thanks, everyone, for chiming in.

[AFDavis11]

Good description! I'm guilty of excessive pressure. I use an old strop and am admatant about getting three weeks of exceptional shaves which coddle my poor skin over sharpness or time between honings. I move to light pressure at the end of the cycle. The methods I've used to extend that time have included more pressure to draw out the shaving edge. I've never attempted to go beyond a few weeks.

I'm between homes right now and don't have any dressing either....any ideas for a substitute?

My strop is definetly not flat enough, I can even see that.

I hope our posters find a solution to thier problem.

[EL Alamein]

When you strop the point of the razor should lead. This will produce the best edge for shaving IMHO.

Chris

[KP16356]

thanks for all the suggestions guys. i'll try to use some of the techniques mentioned over the next few days and see what works for me and will keeep you updated.

thanks and merry day-after-xmas.

[gfoster]

I can definitely say that if it hurt like hell and pulled, there's either something wrong with your technique or your equipment. A good straight shave is smooth as silk.

-- Gary F.

[Tony Miller]

When you strop the point of the razor should lead. This will produce the best edge for shaving IMHO.

Chris

The leading point is an interesting idea. I know most sources show differently but it is surely something to try. I am also starting to feel to much draw may not be best either as it does makle stropping harder just as using too much pressure. I am having my best results with a medium amount of draw. Latigo leather varies wodely in this factor some almost sticking to the razors, other hides almost icey smooth. Some will do better with dressing, some without.

Shaving angle is critical and can make a poor shaver into a good one. vary the angle and experiment. I notice if I am rushing a shave and inattentive I don;t get as good results as I am not paying attention to the angle and how it is cutting.

Tony

[berzerkeleyan]

Just a follow-up for you fellas...

My third day of SR shaving, and each day is getting better. I'm still trying to find the optimum blade angle, but each day's shave has felt better than the last. I'm gaining confidence holding the razor with each passing day, which is leading to less tentative strokes. I'm still only tackling the flat parts of my face, with only one pass. I still have no idea how to tackle the chin and upper lip, so I'm steering clear of them for now. Round edges, hard to reach places, and subsequent passes are dealt with by a DE.

Stropping has been, without question, difficult. To simultaneously keep the length of the razor flat against the strop, while not applying any pressure has been a big challenge. I think I'm getting better at this as well, but I freak out whenever I accidentally lift a side of the razor from the strop, utterly convinced I've ruined the edge for life. Quite stressful. :crying:

Thanks again for all the input. The feedback this forum provides is going to make this a lot easier to master than if I were all alone. :thumbup1:

[Scorpio]

baby steps!!! you are doing fine. how do I know? you are still here and not in the ER. Keep stropping slowly, dont try to gain speed for now just slow and consistent. If you have not seen the Lynn Abrams video or read the Dr. Chris Moss document I highly recommend you take a few minutes to do it. the video will help you with your chin and rounded areas of your face. Remember that you control the angle of the blade so it will be a better shave than a DE once you build your confidence in your strokes. Keep working at it, in a few days it will start feeling more comfortable.

Are you using your left hand? If you are, to develop coordination, brush your teeth with your left hand. This will help develop blade control and confidence with your stroke. Hope this helps.

Raf

[gglockner]

Somewhere between learning how to strop (right on Joel) and learning how to shave with the SR you will get a good then a great shave. My only added advice is to shave when your beard only has say 12 hours growth. Start out with the easy areas and finish off the tough ones with the DE or whatever. Give yourself a fighting chance.

Glen

[rtaylor61]

Somewhere between learning how to strop (right on Joel) and learning how to shave with the SR you will get a good then a great shave. My only added advice is to shave when your beard only has say 12 hours growth. Start out with the easy areas and finish off the tough ones with the DE or whatever. Give yourself a fighting chance.

Glen

Excellent advice. Exactly how I got started with straight razors. Slow and easy!

Randy

[ouch]

+2. Slow and easy.

I recall thinking that my neck would be impossible to shave. Now it's easy. I thought I'd never be able to do my upper lip- no problem. ATG? At once unthinkable, now routine. My chin? Well, that's where it still falls apart for me.:cursing: But I'll get there, slow and easy.

[Scotto]

Not to be a pain, but I will chime in with the statement that you will always get some pulling with a str8, and the shave experience is quite different than a DE. This is not necessarily a bad thing, just different. I went through a phase when I was using a str8, and despite using razors honed by the best, I was always uncomfortable during the shave, after being very used to a DE. I have a very heavy beard, and there is nothing like a good DE. Even the Feather AC pales in comparison.

Guys who are dedicated str8 users are used to the sensations of the str8 shave, but moving from a DE is different beast.

[berzerkeleyan]

That's a great point to make, Scotto. Thanks. That will certainly keep me aware not to expect the same sensation of a DE when running a straight down my face.

[mparker762]

Given a sufficiently sharp straight the "pulling" is generally comparable to an M3 or Fusion. It's definitely there, but certainly not objectionable. Some of this is simply because a straight has a total blade length several times longer than a DE, and comparable to that of an M3, Q4, or F5, which at any given instant are all cutting more whiskers than the DE.

[ouch]

Not to be a pain, but I will chime in with the statement that you will always get some pulling with a str8, and the shave experience is quite different than a DE.


Agreed. I've had razors prepped by "the best", and although I'll begrudgingly admit that they were marginally better than mine, they still exhibit an enormous amount of pull compared to a DE.
Fortunately, I started off with a straight, then progressed to a DE. Good thing- if I did it the other way around, I don't think I would have stuck with a straight for long. I enjoy the overall experience of a straight razor shave, but I get a much closer and smoother shave with a DE.

[sphughes]

Keep at it....You will be pleased with the end result. I'll echo what others have said already. Prepare the blade correctly and be confident when you use it. In addition make sure you use a good soap or creme and be sure you have an adequate amount (not excessive) on a well moistened face. If your lather of choice begins to dry to quickly, you may have more of a challenge ahead of you.

Above all enjoy the ride!!

-Scott-

[netsurfr]

I think I have promoted the Lynn Abrams DVD in several other posts but I would highly recommend it for a beginner. I still consider myself a beginner afte about 4 months and refer to this dvd frequently.
Steve

[tim8557]

I do not use a straight, only a DE, but as a "Recovering KnifeKnut" I always kept my knives, culinary and pocket shaving sharp. You can shave your arm BBS with any of my knives so presumably you could do the same to your beard.

Though I would use an Edge PRO to set the relief bevel and primary edge I would use a leather strop to maintain them to a "scary sharp" edge. As Joel mentioned, stropping is the most important and secretive part of maintaining any edge. The only time I use my Edge Pro is when a friend asks me to sharpen their kitchen knives (it has always amazed me just how dull most kitchen knives are). I use the Edge Pro to cut a new edge and when finished maintain it with a steel and stropping.

My strop is a mounted flat strop http://www.handamerican.com/flatbed.html, which I feel minimizes the potential for rolling the edge. I also strop slowly and with minimal pressure making sure that I lifted the blade off the strop before flipping it over then laying it down with the spine contacting first. Again, this all minimizes the potential for rolling the edge, while maximizing the final polished cutting edge for sharpness.

[The Invisible Edge]

"I still have no idea how to tackle the chin and upper lip, so I'm steering clear of them for now. Round edges, hard to reach places, and subsequent passes are dealt with by a DE."

Easy way out - grow a Van Dyke! (Makes you look tough too.)

Seriously, it's naice to see someone banging on about stropping. My own favourite, a 6/8 round end Kropp, only saw the hone once when I got it over a year ago. Fair enough, I don't use it EVERY day but I do strop very thoroughly and carefully on my old Osgar 53 (now black with age and shiny as a pea). Works great for me....:001_smile

[berzerkeleyan]

I'm still at it myself, and still really challenged with the area around the mouth. In addition, I get the worst razor burn when I use a straight.

:em3000:

I have a lot to learn.

[mparker762]

I'm still at it myself, and still really challenged with the area around the mouth. In addition, I get the worst razor burn when I use a straight.

Generally a sharper razor and shallower angle help with this. I'd say less pressure, but most guys are really careful about using too much pressure with a straight for some reason. And IMO excess pressure is a symptom of a dull blade anyway.

[berzerkeleyan]

Generally a sharper razor and shallower angle help with this. I'd say less pressure, but most guys are really careful about using too much pressure with a straight for some reason. And IMO excess pressure is a symptom of a dull blade anyway.

Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure it's the angle, since all my blades were bought from fine honemeisters. It seems there's a very fine line (to me, at least) between excess pressure and Joel's comment about following through. But I've only been at it since the Holidays, so I know I have a ways to go. I'm nowhere close to giving up yet.

[netsurfr]

Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure it's the angle, since all my blades were bought from fine honemeisters. It seems there's a very fine line (to me, at least) between excess pressure and Joel's comment about following through. But I've only been at it since the Holidays, so I know I have a ways to go. I'm nowhere close to giving up yet.

When I had one of my blades done by a honemeister is when I got my first insight into the fact that I was using too large of an angle for shaving. Once I reduced my angle of attack (so to speak) everything started to fall into place.
Steve

[berzerkeleyan]

When I had one of my blades done by a honemeister is when I got my first insight into the fact that I was using too large of an angle for shaving. Once I reduced my angle of attack (so to speak) everything started to fall into place.
Steve

Things are improving, no doubt. Strokes are more confident, angles of attack getting worked out. It's getting to the point where I think in another week, I'll be able to complete my shave without the aid of a DE to finish up.

Happy times. :thumbup1:

[kozulich]

Given a sufficiently sharp straight the "pulling" is generally comparable to an M3 or Fusion. It's definitely there, but certainly not objectionable. Some of this is simply because a straight has a total blade length several times longer than a DE, and comparable to that of an M3, Q4, or F5, which at any given instant are all cutting more whiskers than the DE.

I would agree that a str8 pulls more than a DE. I switch back and forth, so I know whereof I speak. I also have a very heavy, wiry beard (just ask my wife). However, if the str8 pulls to the point where its uncomfortable, I have found that the issue is always with the sharpness of the str8, or with beard prep. So, while it does pull, it shouldn't pull to the point of discomfort. I used to get a lot more pulling from my Braun electric. Of all shaving methods, I find the DE to pull the least, a well honed str8 second least.

[Steerpike]

Quote:
"I do not use a straight, only a DE, but as a "Recovering KnifeKnut" I always kept my knives, culinary and pocket shaving sharp. You can shave your arm BBS with any of my knives so presumably you could do the same to your beard."

Yes you can! It doesn't work so well though, as the edge angle is steeper, and facial hair is tougher than arm hair. You want to watch the scary point near your ear when shaving your sideburns! I used to shave with a knife for a few months when I got fed up with buying razor cartridges (well actually, I was about 16, and my mum stopped getting me them!). I still use one if I'm hiking and want to look neat (and have access to a mirror), just lather up with hand soap, once over against the grain, it does the job!

Fully agreed with the stropping rant. The idea is to give your best razor to your son, when he needs one, looking like it did the day you got it. And for him to pass it on the same. If you are forever honing, you are wasting good steel! Perhaps its a matter of having the correct "teeth" for your bristles. If they arent, perhaps they break sooner, necessitating more frequent honing. Any thoughts?