Workplace "Etiquite"

[rigglet]

OK...it may be obvious that I just located this section of the forums, but it couldn't have come at a better time. :001_smile

I work for a large entertainment company in IT. We have a very loose dress code being part of the music business. It is even more loose in IT...too loose for my taste, but I didn't get a say. My role within the group has changed recently and although I'm not a true manager I do have managerial responsibilities.

Recently I have begun improving the way I dress for work, as well as outside work. Not because of the change in my position, but because I was tired of the "jeans and tee shirt" wear. I wanted to improve the overall look of my team...even if I was the only one working at it. It started out simple enough...jeans with a polo. Then it went to no jeans, except on Friday, and button down shirts most days of the week. Lately, I've been giving thought to wearing a tie, and possibly a suit, occasionally to work. I don't have to do a lot of the lifting and "grunt" work so it wouldn't be an inconvenience to wear one.

Now for my question....

Most of the directors and managers here wear Dockers and a polo shirt most every day. I rarely see anyone wear a tie except when a there is something major going on. Given that my superiors don't wear ties or suits would it be in bad form for me to? I don't want it to seem like I'm jockeying for position because that's not what it is about. I'm simply trying to step up the way I dress...for me....oh...and SWMBO.

[mmack66]

Nothing wrong with trying to improve your dress code, and I guess you can wear whatever you want, but I would feel out of place wearing a suit and tie in an established casual atmosphere. Without a formal dress code, I doubt anyone else on your team will "follow suit".

[RichGem]

As they say, "dress for the job you want, not the job you have." But, I'd be careful about overly out-dressing your superiors, it might appear like you are trying to make them look bad.

[Doc4]

Firstly, congrats on your personal decision to upgrade your dress. It's a great feeling, isn't it?

I would advise against "obviously outdressing" everyone at work, including your bosses, though. It's unfortunate, but we humans are "pack animals" and getting too far away from the pack (by choice) will only mark you out in ways you will not like.

That said, there's nothing wrong with slowly pushing the envelope in hope of creating some longterm change. If no one else is going above a polo shirt, then make sure you are wearing the best polo shirt in the office (not in terms of flashy brand names, but in terms of perfect fit and colour. Essentially, you can do a lot simply by focusing on proper fit, good colour combinations, and well-polished shoes, without "wearing a tux to a BBQ".) Maybe a dress shirt with sleeves rolled up and a sweatervest ... no tie ... to at least get the idea of a "dress shirt" floating about the office?

[Bertilak]

Maybe a bit of whimsy with a bow tie will protect you from looking over ambitious.

[blantyre]

The fact that there is no dress code means that you can wear whatever you want, including a suit and tie if you feel like it.

[Bertilak]

The fact that there is no dress code means that you can wear whatever you want, including a suit and tie if you feel like it.

There is a difference between what is possible and what is appropriate or even what is or isn't a good idea.

[Kouros]

Never dress better than the boss.

[praetorian2000]

years ago i worked in a homeless shelter. dress code was extremely casual. it was not uncommon to see male case managers in jeans, t-shirt, and gym shoes. in the summer, we often wore shorts. the supervisor in my department always wore casual pants and button down shirt and casual shoes. the supervisor in the other department always wore jeans and a t-shirt. in the summer he always wore shorts. we had one male case manager who always wore a suit. no one cared. no one improved their way of dressing. we all dressed the way we wanted. the only thing the supervisors and director cared about was that our work got done.

i say, wear what you like.

[danek]

My workplace is generally "business casual" and both I and the president seldom wear ties. However, when I wear a complete suit and tie, I get many compliments. No one thinks I am over dressed or trying to out-do others.

I say, dress as well as you like, others will appreciate your attention to your personal appearance. I guess that if you get accusations from others that you are making others uncomfortable, you could always tone it down a bit.

[DS/B MCS]

Never dress better than the boss.

If you would like continued employment :wink:

You already answered your own question..."Most of the directors and managers here wear Dockers and a polo shirt most every day".

[Sodapopjones]

Never dress better than the boss.

Actually I work for a bank, and our tellers dress better than most of the branch managers...(Public eye, yadda yadda)

However, If I were in his position I would wear what I felt comfortable with, but I think a suit and tie, is just a tad bit for "Business Casual".

[blackfoot]

My job experience was construction and now I wear a uniform. So, dress code has never been an issue for me. Therefore, I may not be the best at advice here. IMHO, feel free to push the envelope, but carefully. You can over-dress, but only some. I would only go a step or two above what the bosses are wearing. Stay at that point for a long time until know one even realises it anymore, including you. A year or so, maybe you can move it up another notch and no one will pay attention.

Ridiculous that you have to worry about something like that. Unfortunately, that is the world we live in. When I am at work, but off duty, everyone makes a big deal about how I am dressed. I've told my wife, I feel like I am a fashion show. I am expected to be extremely well dressed and everybody watches to see what I wear this time.

[Bertilak]

Many years ago I decided I wanted to get into management so checked with some upper levels to see what was needed and was told flat out I probably wasn't management material.

Well, I went out and bought two three piece suits and wore one or the other nearly every day for a year, at which point I was promoted into a management job.

But that wasn't really overdressing at the time. Dress code was *everyone* wore at least jacket and tie. I was sent home once for not having a tie! Most 1st level managers wore jacket and tie but many upper level managers did wear three piece suits. Those were the guy's who I *really* need to get on board.

[mmack66]

Start a tradition of "Dress Suit Friday" and build from there.

[blackfoot]

Start a tradition of "Dress Suit Friday" and build from there.

There is a great idea!

[Doc4]

Start a tradition of "Dress Suit Friday" and build from there.

... 'tuxedo friday' :w00t:


(good idea, though, if you can get buy-in.)

[AdrianR]

Well, I went out and bought two three piece suits and wore one or the other nearly every day for a year, at which point I was promoted into a management job.

I wore a 3-piece on one office-based job. Accessorized with a heavy silver watch chain and antique Waltham pocket watch. Writing always with my Cross Townsend fountain pen, wearing an expensive cologne and having an ebullient manner made several women think I was gay - I eventually found out they were running a book on me, "Is he or isn't he?".

The finance director's PA was glad to report that I most definitely was NOT - too bad I couldn't hang on to her for more than a year!:biggrin:

[blackfoot]

I wore a 3-piece on one office-based job. Accessorized with a heavy silver watch chain and antique Waltham pocket watch. Writing always with my Cross Townsend fountain pen, wearing an expensive cologne and having an ebullient manner made several women think I was gay - I eventually found out they were running a book on me, "Is he or isn't he?".

The finance director's PA was glad to report that I most definitely was NOT - too bad I couldn't hang on to her for more than a year!:biggrin:

:lol::lol::lol:

[Bertilak]

I wore a 3-piece on one office-based job. Accessorized with a heavy silver watch chain and antique Waltham pocket watch. Writing always with my Cross Townsend fountain pen, wearing an expensive cologne and having an ebullient manner made several women think I was gay - I eventually found out they were running a book on me, "Is he or isn't he?".

The finance director's PA was glad to report that I most definitely was NOT - too bad I couldn't hang on to her for more than a year!:biggrin:

My advice? Don't accessorize so much! A simple matching hand bag or clutch should be enough.

[blackfoot]

My advice? Don't accessorize so much! A simple matching hand bag or clutch should be enough.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


:ouch1::ouch1::ouch1:

[Sam F]

The last place I worked was casual but during the colder months I would regularly wear a shirt and tie, it looked better with my Fedora and overcoat, and at first I would gets compliments eventually it stopped becoming an issue. I would recommend a sport coat and open collar maybe to start. Then you hang the jacket once you are in the office. Then as the noise starts to quiet add a tie. The nice thing about the Sport Coat is as Fall approaches works nicely on the cool mornings.

[rigglet]

I love all the input from everyone. I only expected a comment or two, but seems to be quite a bit more.

So far I have basically taken the gradual improvement approach. And what has been said is true. For a while I got compliments from the ladies and comments from the gents. But now, nobody really seems to notice. That's what prompted me to think about stepping it up a notch. I think I'll shock everyone one day soon and wear a tie in. Probably a tie that is the same tone as the shirt so as to limit the amount of attention it draws. I'll try that and see how it is received....then who knows. :tongue_sm

I like the idea of a sport coat with no tie also. I mean after all fall is setting in here in the Midwest and I'll need to start wearing a coat soon anyway. Anyone have suggestions on a good "standard" color coat? I don't have limitless funds so I'd need to try and get something that would be versatile to start and then add to my collection later.

[scottish steve]

Rather than being blatant, I'd get some really nice chinos and a few good shirts. Coupled with good Oxford shoes its a classic look. Add a leather jacket for "go anywhere cool"

[Doc4]

I like the idea of a sport coat with no tie also. I mean after all fall is setting in here in the Midwest and I'll need to start wearing a coat soon anyway. Anyone have suggestions on a good "standard" color coat? I don't have limitless funds so I'd need to try and get something that would be versatile to start and then add to my collection later.

Standard colour for a sport coat? Well the standard of all standards is the navy blue blazer ... go with that.

(Technically, a 'blazer' has brass buttons ... skip those for now ... and get what could be called a blue sport coat. Again, technically, those are called "odd jackets" ... "odd" because they are similar to a suit jacket, but have no matching pants to make a "pair" .. thus not even, but odd.)

[Echo]

So far I have basically taken the gradual improvement approach. And what has been said is true. For a while I got compliments from the ladies and comments from the gents. But now, nobody really seems to notice. That's what prompted me to think about stepping it up a notch. I think I'll shock everyone one day soon and wear a tie in. Probably a tie that is the same tone as the shirt so as to limit the amount of attention it draws. I'll try that and see how it is received....then who knows.

I think you've done a great job in improving based on your first post and the feedback you said you received. However this latest post troubles me because I'm afraid you're dressing well for the wrong reasons.

I definitely think it's in important for a man to be fashionable and dress professionally; however, I hope you are not doing it just to get attention from coworkers. Just because no one is commenting you directly on your clothing anymore doesn't mean they aren't paying attention to you. I feel like if you are trying to improve your attire to "shock everyone", eventually there will be a line that you will cross where people go "rigglet looks sharp today" to "what's with rigglet going overboard dressing up like that?"

Anyway, I just want to make sure you're heart is in the right place. Now, if you still want to wear a tie or a suit because it's something you want to do and not because you're trying to get more comments from others then by all means do it.

I work in a similar environment as the original poster - I work for a video game company and as you can imagine, everyone is dressed pretty casually. A lot of t-shirts, baseball caps, hoodies, and what not. The most anyone ever gets dressed up here is a dress shirt with khakis (and this includes the president!).

What I try to do in my work outfits is find the best mix of being casual and presentable without going overboard and without looking like a slouch. I personally feel you can wear a t-shirt and jeans and make it look good on you. Last Friday, I wore a maroon t-shirt with jeans and nice black sneakers. On top of the the shirt, I wore a grey v-neck sweater and then a black suit jacket. This layering makes you look presentable and you can strip down to be more casual. Often other times I'll just wear a dress shirt with jeans and a sports coat.

I'm not sure if I would ever wear a suit to work. Still, if you feel inclined to wear a suit, you can always dress it down. Maybe wear a striped polo in the suit with some casual shoes or even sneakers. Or if you feel like wearing a tie, how about a white shirt with a patterned blue tie with dark blue jeans and then a v-neck sweater?

I think it's good for someone to stand out from their peers as well dressed and groomed, but you definitely don't want to go overboard and seperate yourself from them. I think the best way to dread the middle ground is to find a dark indigo pair of jeans and then wear that with dress shirts, ties, and sports coats combinations. The dress shirt and tie will make you much more sharp and presentable and the dark indigo jeans will look as sharp as dress slacks while helping you stay grounded in the casual culture of the company.

My final thoughts are to dress well because it makes you feel better but don't go overboard just to get attention.

[azmark]

As an executive, I notice good manors, hygiene, dress and appearance from everyone. It makes a difference. We have a large IT department, they along with our programmers, skip casual. If I may make a suggestion, even shirts that are tucked into a nice pair of jeans and clean shoes look quite well.

[rigglet]

Echo - Thanks for the feedback, but I think I may have expressed myself wrong in the last post. Rereading the quote you pulled from my post does make it appear as though I am looking for attention. I assure you I am not changing my dress style to garner attention from anyone here at work. If I wanted to do that I would go completely the other directions and come in dressed like Marilyn Manson. :001_smile

I'm doing it because I've lost over 21 lbs. so far this year (30 pound goal for the year). I feel better than ever and I want to look better than ever as well. I take a lot of pride in the results I've gotten from 4+ days a week in the gym and some serious diet changes. If I'm going to do anything for anyone it will be for my wife of 17 years...not those I work with.

In fact, what I am trying to do is gradually change the way I appear so as to not draw unwanted attention to myself. I know that dressing "nicer" than the crowd will bring some attention my way, but that is not the goal. The primary goal is to "look" the way I "feel". A secondary result I would like to see, but I know won't happen, is that the rest of my team will step things up a notch.

Again...I appreciate everyone's input and am glad that this thread has produced so much discussion. I think it is a good thing.

[Echo]

Congratulations on the weight loss! I think that's definitely awesome and I know how you must feel (I won our biggest loser contest at my company recently). I'm glad that you're trying to dress the way you feel and you're doing it for the right reason. I apologize if I came across rude in any manner, I was just a little surprised at that post since it seemed rather different than to your original post.

I think you've done a great job on looking the way you feel, and having other people notice it too is definitely a great perk. Hopefully you're team will start to notice how people react to the way you dress and how it makes you feel more positive and they will follow suit. It's definitely a long shot, but I you might be slowly rubbing off on them.

Maybe for Halloween you can convince the team to all wear suits. Say you're going as the guys from Reservoir Dogs or something. And make it a week long event. haha

[Doc4]

The devil is in the details.

Especially in a 'casual' workplace, one of the ways to improve one's dress is not so much to move from this garment to that garment (polo to shirt & tie to sports coat to suit & tie &c) but to do a better version of what is already being worn. The key is to find the proper fit (most guys wear clothes that are too big, with sleeves & pants too long), and then focus on good colours and patterns. For example, does everyone wears Docker's pants? Be the only guy in the office who wears slim, flat-front khakis that are not too long, rather than the standard baggy, pleated, ankle-pooling version.

Not that everything GQ says is good advice, but check out their 'project upgrade' http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_10598
... and the Olivia Wilde photos ... :w00t:


I'm doing it because I've lost over 21 lbs. so far this year (30 pound goal for the year). I feel better than ever and I want to look better than ever as well. I take a lot of pride in the results I've gotten from 4+ days a week in the gym and some serious diet changes. If I'm going to do anything for anyone it will be for my wife of 17 years...not those I work with.

... The primary goal is to "look" the way I "feel". ...

Congrats on the weight loss. :biggrin: Don't go overboard with too many purchases until you reach your target weight, as you may still end up with a closet full of oversized clothes that don't fit quite right.

... That's not to say you shouldn't buy new stuff now; of course you should. Just make it a few key items so you can show off the new you ... for now. (Example: polo 'A' may fit you now, and polo 'B' may still look a bit too tight ... but drop that last 10 pounds, and all of a sudden B looks killer, and you regret having spent so much money on all those A's when you could have spend that money on B's now.)

I really like your 'goal' statement, too. :biggrin:

[Piper Down]

I don't want it to seem like I'm jockeying for position. . . .

Even though this is not what you are doing, this is exactly what they will see. You will get a lot of comments and good-natured ribbing. The way you dress will draw a lot of attention. If this is what you want, you'll know it's coming.

I teach at a community college, very lax dress code. I took to wearing sport coats and ties on big meeting days (really cheap stuff, too) and boy, you'd think I was wearing a black tuxedo.

Let us know what you decide and what happens.

[Prince]

A little off topic, but what was your key to lose 2/3 of your goal weight so far? Just curious as I'd love to lose 20-25 pounds.

[Tony Miller]

However this latest post troubles me because I'm afraid you're dressing well for the wrong reasons.

Anyway, I just want to make sure you're heart is in the right place. Now, if you still want to wear a tie or a suit because it's something you want to do and not because you're trying to get more comments from others then by all means do it.



This one made me laugh but for a different reason. I am on a discussion group, Menno Discuss. It is a group for the anabaptist denominations, Mennonites, Brethren, etc.... We tend to dress plain and not too worldly. We have similar discussions about doing it for the right reasons, to check our heart, not what we 'should" be doing just because of peer pressure.

Different direction, same worries.

Tony

[rigglet]

A little off topic, but what was your key to lose 2/3 of your goal weight so far? Just curious as I'd love to lose 20-25 pounds.

Let me just start out by saying the "diet" I'm using is not for everyone. It works for me and that's all I care about. I put the term diet in quotes because I've tried other "diet" which all work to some degree, but are near impossible for me to stick to. For example I did the South Beach diet a few years back and I great results...until I tried adding carbs back in. The the weight all came back. I was looking for something I would be able to stick to long term, that didn't involve "giving something up" to achieve the results. I've got no issue with giving up the known enemies of weight loss (soda, candy, ice cream, etc), but I didn't want to have to worry about eating too much of this....or too little of that. So after some research I chose the Warrior diet.

http://www.warriordiet.com/

If you follow it in the strictest sense you do have to give up some things and he does feel that you have to mix and match foods correctly to achieve results. I have found that with little changes to the what I was eating before I have been able to drop the weight. The only thing I have really done is control the time of day when I eat. And even with an occasional "cheat day" I have still had great results. It was hard for the first couple of days to get used to the schedule, but now it is very easy.

One last thing...although I believe the diet will work by itself I am a firm believe that you MUST couple any diet with a good exercise program. I am not a fan of cardio workouts, but I find that I get the best results when I include them. I have a couple routines I rotate throughout the year. One is 10-12 weeks of lighter weights/more reps with cardio and the second is 10-12 weeks of very heavy weights/very low reps with no cardio. I was dropping about 1.5 - 2 pounds per week when on the light weight with cardio cycle. I have found that my weight is not changing much for the 8 weeks I have been on the other cycle. This was to be expected since there is the potential for more muscle gain while on a heavy weight/low rep routine. While there hasn't been any weight loss there has been body composition changes even while on the no cardio routine.

I've probably included way more information that you were looking for in you question, but as you can tell I like to share this kind of info with whoever is willing to listen. :001_smile

[Edcculus]

Instead of going full hog suit and tie, how about stepping up other parts of your wardrobe? Nicer slacks instead of cotton/linen pants. Nicer dress shirts. Nicer shoes.

I've started adding a few of these things to my wardrobe. Since its gotten cooler, I've started wearing in a sport coat instead of a more casual windbreaker/outdoor jacket. My next step is nice shoes and a few pairs of nicer slacks. Would a tie be annoying/impractical for you? I'm often on the plant floor near printing presses that could snatch up a tie in an instant.

[toucanlamp]

I think it's just reality that the overwhelming majority of office environments have gone casual. Suits are the daily wear of bigshot financial company employees or lawyers.

I'd say that you can dress as nicely as you want, and people won't think - 'wow this guy is weird!' as long as you don't go all the way and put on a tie when nobody else wears one.

I'm certain that someone can go all the way and wear a suit and nice dress shirt and they'll just get tagged as someone with good fashion tastes and a fancy dresser, but when you put on that tie, people immediately think - what is he trying to do or prove? - because it's uncomfortable and unnecessary.

[Kouros]

Just wear a suit with some sneakers for that "business casual" look I see nowadays.

[Doc4]

I think it's just reality that the overwhelming majority of office environments have gone casual. Suits are the daily wear of bigshot financial company employees or lawyers.

I'd say that you can dress as nicely as you want, and people won't think - 'wow this guy is weird!' as long as you don't go all the way and put on a tie when nobody else wears one.

I'm certain that someone can go all the way and wear a suit and nice dress shirt and they'll just get tagged as someone with good fashion tastes and a fancy dresser, but when you put on that tie, people immediately think - what is he trying to do or prove? - because it's uncomfortable and unnecessary.

A tie uncomfortable? No way, man! As an almost-daily tie wearer, IMHO ties are only uncomfortable if the are either too tight (usualy a problem of a shirt collar that is too small) or caught in industrial machinery.

The solution for the former problem ... a bigger shirt. The solution for the latter problem ... 'off' button, knife, clip-on, vest ...

[mmack66]

$450 blue jeans, sport coat, and tie.

[blackfoot]

$450 blue jeans, sport coat, and tie.

:eek:

[toucanlamp]

A tie uncomfortable? No way, man! As an almost-daily tie wearer, IMHO ties are only uncomfortable if the are either too tight (usualy a problem of a shirt collar that is too small) or caught in industrial machinery.

The solution for the former problem ... a bigger shirt. The solution for the latter problem ... 'off' button, knife, clip-on, vest ...

Well I think it's more just that it's unnecessary. And whether or not a tie is comfortable, if you do a poll on whether people consider a tie something comfortable to wear, probably 98% are going to say no, and so that's the perception people have of it and so the perception of the tie wearer who doesn't need to wear one is unfortunately going to be "he's being uncomfortable for....?"

It's a little piece of fabric that marks the boundary between formal and trendy casual, and you stand out if you're the only one wearing one.

[Hughies_online]

The advice to dress for the organization you work for is sound. Dressing better than the bosses may not be a good idea.

[StylinLA]

The advice to dress for the organization you work for is sound. Dressing better than the bosses may not be a good idea.

Yeah. You have to tread carefully here. I work in show biz as an exec. I like to dress stylish and often show up turned out way better than anybody I work with. But I've been here long enough that I'm sort of known for that. My boss doesn't love it when I'm turned out I'm sure, but he's become accostomed to it and isn't threatened by it.

The dress code here in Los Angeles is always leaning more and more casual. I won't be shocked if by the time I retire, everyone is in PJs like Hef.

I would put a lot of emphasis on making sure what you buy is nice quality, and most especially- looks good on you. Your wife should be a good source for that. A woman who cares about you will always do a great job of helping you pick clothes that make you look good.

[StylinLA]

[QUOTE=Doc4;1525556]A tie uncomfortable? No way, man! As an almost-daily tie wearer, IMHO ties are only uncomfortable if the are either too tight (usualy a problem of a shirt collar that is too small) or caught in industrial machinery.QUOTE]


+1 on the ties not being uncomfortabe. If you're wearing the right size shirt collar, you lose any sense that it's there really.

But I do think some men have an issue with the notion of something "tied" around their neck.

[BarryR]

Standard colour for a sport coat? Well the standard of all standards is the navy blue blazer ... go with that.

+1
The blue blazer is the standard. #2 is probably a camel hair jacket (and it's appropriate in the approaching cooler months).

[blackfoot]

But I do think some men have an issue with the notion of something "tied" around their neck.

+1 All of my training resist the idea of having something tied around my neck. I do it anyhow.

[Doc4]

+1
The blue blazer is the standard. #2 is probably a camel hair jacket (and it's appropriate in the approaching cooler months).

Camel is nice too.

I'd also look at an unlined cream linen (or linen-cotton blend if the wrinkles are bothering you) for summer, and some sort of tweedy jacket (herringbone or glenplaid) for winter.