A defense of Charles Roberts

[Beethoven]

I've read Joel's posts about his experience with the Shavemaster brush, and though I can’t comment on the brush itself, I must say I certainly don’t recognize either Charles or Jean in Joel’s characterization; I certainly don’t recognize the Charles Roberts who wrote the moving, clearly heartfelt tribute to Ray DuPont posted at Method Shaving.

http://www.methodshaving.com/content/view/64/44/

I've purchased two Simpson's brushes from Charles and Jean and found both of them to be very pleasant, very helpful, and very generous with their time; I felt I was talking to a friend more than to someone trying to sell me something - they seemed more concerned with helping me achieve a happy shaving experience than in making a sale (ah, the signature of a truly professional salesperson).

And I do wonder how Joel’s brush would look photographed on a flat surface instead of on somewhat irregular tile; and I wonder just how eccentric the base is (the camera lens doesn’t seem to be perfectly centered on the axis of the base; Joel’s finger and thumb seem to be tilting the brush). Perhaps Joel could send the brush to another member for comment.

And Joel, though you are the moderator, I suggest you ask someone to review your messages before posting them. Had they been posted by another board member, I suspect you might have elided them for their immoderate, intemperate tone (moderator, moderate thyself!). If I knew neither you nor Charles or Jean, the tone of your writing would incline me to their side.

Happy New Year to all!
Michael Bradley

P.S. Though I’ve followed the B & B board for some while, this is among my first posts. I’d like to say thanks to all who do post their experiences with wet shaving - after 47 years or so of shaving (I’m 62), I’m tickled to find there’s so much still to learn. And it’s fun!

[joel]

Dude..... I posted that upon the request of the moderators, and several private parties.

I truly never understand these "defense" posts.... "Because it did not happen to me, surely this is out and out hogwash." You ever stop to think.... why would I try to get another shaving brush - if there was nothing wrong with this one?, I love the one I got to try for FREE so much I up and bought one... why in the heck would I "fake" there being something wrong with it? What good would it do, to send back a perfect brush back (and spend money on shipping) only to get another one back? What motive would there be - to have a YEAR LONG stance of enjoying CAR's products, then all of a sudden invent a problem with a brush - bring it to his attention polietly, him offer a solution, me not be to thrilled with it.... drop the issue - but then several days later have them contact me again to try to get to the bottom of the problem, only to then still remain silent on the issue, until I am called a liar and verbally attacked? - wait, but then still not saying anything, until prompted to do so by others? He VERY easily could have taken the brush back, swapped it, etc and bypassed the entire problem?

That is awfully far fetched my friend, and I am mighty insulted that you would suggest I RANDOMLY decided on a whim to FABRICATE pictures, and correspondences with Charles Roberts and Co. for no reason. As far as I am concerned, and as closely as I can read it - you are politely calling me a liar. Well, I am really sick to death of people taking pot shots and hiding behind them by touting themselves as being a "gentleman." Good god man - have yo ulogically peiced together what you are implying? Can you truly see ANY logic in it? Remember.... even gentlemen have duels.

Man up fellla and stick some powder behind your accusations - why don't you pay me the $250 - buy the defective brush and ladie da prove me wrong? Oh.... maybe like everyone else - you don't want a POS, shedding, funky handled brush. It is easy to play keyboard commando and "defend" the likes of Charles.... well cheif - MAN UP, I am callin' you out. What's the risk since Charles offers such tremendous service to you - I am sure he'll take it back :001_tt2:

Listen - you wanna drop your jaw my friend - YOU contact Charles Roberts - and get him to send me an email giving express permission (so that it is documented) to post ALL of our email exchanges - and I will gladly do so. I have NOTHING to hide.... he on the other hand would be rather embarassed, and you would be quite shocked.

Simply put - Jean was incredibly polite, and seems like quite a lady... Charles was quite the opposite.

[joel]

Oh - one more thing I'd like to point out that chapped my hind end.

You randomly start your muckraking post with a link to something Charles wrote about a dying man... something Charles sent me and asked me to post on the site. I find it MIGHTY convienient you all of a sudden appear and link the VERY article Charles wanted exposure on this very site from.... not to mention you praising Charles with no logical reasoning, and attacking me.

Getting back to my chapped posterior..... what in the blazes does that little tidbit Charles wrote have ANYTHING to do with my situation, and me being disingenuous? If I showed you a short story I wrote in the 6th grade, would that have any more/less relevance? If I showed you hundreds of pages of garbled nonsense describing what I cut down and displayed in a few pages - would you not consider the originator of the garbled mess - somewhat "eccentric" and somewhat of a madman?

Sorry fellas... this just seems mighty fishy to me. I think this is a rue - and I want to nip this square in the bud before it goes ANY further. None of this nonesense and bickering should be on this forum..... Let's solve this, and move on.

[Scotto]

Michael,

It's time for some "straight talk" as we say in my business. Your post, while it may be heartfelt, smells pretty clearly like a troll. Why on earth would Joel lie about this stuff, especially when the history of how much he likes Charles' products is out there for anyone to see? It is nice that your experiences have been good ones, but that doesn't make Joel's experience untrue.

This board is for people to share experience; take each person's with a grain of salt if you wish, but unless you have some evidence, please refrain from insinuating someone is a liar or has ulterior motives. Joel's vehement response to you has to be seen in this light. I would suggest everyone take a collective deep breath from here on in and stick to the facts. If you have good experiences, continue to share them. If someone has poor ones, share those too. Everyone can make their own conclusions without getting too personal.

[roughrider]

Michael,

It's time for some "straight talk" as we say in my business. Your post, while it may be heartfelt, smells pretty clearly like a troll. Why on earth would Joel lie about this stuff, especially when the history of how much he likes Charles' products is out there for anyone to see? It is nice that your experiences have been good ones, but that doesn't make Joel's experience untrue.

This board is for people to share experience; take each person's with a grain of salt if you wish, but unless you have some evidence, please refrain from insinuating someone is a liar or has ulterior motives. Joel's vehement response to you has to be seen in this light. I would suggest everyone take a collective deep breath from here on in and stick to the facts. If you have good experiences, continue to share them. If someone has poor ones, share those too. Everyone can make their own conclusions without getting too personal.

Well said.

[EcoRick]

Personally, I think any product AND service is fair game for review. In this case, it's especially welcome. This is an expensive product and is untested. I think Joel's comments were tempered and he did make as many positive comments as he probably could. I have used CAR's products for awhile now and have mixed feelings, not as much about the results but more on the marketing and service side. Regarding RMWS, it's confusing when you buy a product for a specific method and find out that the method has change before you even use it. The RMWS product directions I've received vary from delivery to delivery. How can something be great one day and out of date the next? This also applies to the brush. How can a Simpson be the greatest brush in the universe one day (tested for decades) and then be inferior to a brand new, very expensive brush? I think any comment, good or bad, are helpful.

Also, I'd like to see the emails.

Rick

[joel]

Personally, I think any product AND service is fair game for review. In this case, it's especially welcome. This is an expensive product and is untested. I think Joel's comments were tempered and he did make as many positive comments as he probably could. I have used CAR's products for awhile now and have mixed feelings, not as much about the results but more on the marketing and service side. Regarding RMWS, it's confusing when you buy a product for a specific method and find out that the method has change before you even use it. The RMWS product directions I've received vary from delivery to delivery. How can something be great one day and out of date the next? This also applies to the brush. How can a Simpson be the greatest brush in the universe one day (tested for decades) and then be inferior to a brand new, very expensive brush? I think any comment, good or bad, are helpful.

Also, I'd like to see the emails.

Rick

Rick,
When I get home, I should scan and post some of the leaflets he sent me.... it gives THREE different instructions on how to use the same product throughout the guide! VERY confusing.... sometimes it tells you to use the paste 2 diff times, sometimes one, etc etc.

[Shermdog]

For what its worth.....

Joels posts and honesty in his reviews are the main reason I subscribe to this website and not SMF. I am a consumer and want to be steared clear of problematic and defective products that cost me money.

Joel....I read your posts and reviews of your problems and I take them seriously. Please keep them coming. Your reviews have kept me (a relative newbie wetshaver) from making unwise purchases. And, I have also found some terrific products too.

[guenron]

Greetings All,
I would suggest that this thread be renamed "In Defense of the Indefensible" and moved from Shaving Brushes, as it has nothing to do with them, to something more suitable like Trolls and Manure, more suited to the basic premises of the smarmy personal attack by Michael.
The product speaks for itself. No amount of prose can cover up the poor quality of this latest marketing monstrosity. It has real velocity into the nearest local landfill.
Oh, and by all means let us not look at the obvious, it must be a personal issue not hype that fails to deliver. Hah!

[Read]

I've read Joel's posts about his experience with the Shavemaster brush, and though I can’t comment on the brush itself, I must say I certainly don’t recognize either Charles or Jean in Joel’s characterization;

Michael,
I agree with your assessment of Charles and Jean. There is always two sides to every story and I am sure we don't know it all but I have no doubt that Charles and/or Jean would welcome the opportunity to make things right with one of their customers; at least that has always been my experience. I would not be satisfied in the least if I had a brush as shown in the previous thread but I feel confident that it would be replaced at no charge or inconvenience to me. While Joel has the right to state his case and disparage a vendor, it is proper for those of us with different experiences to say so too. There is more than meets the eye here, past history and all, so one should consider both sides' reputations before assuming anything.

Read

[Nick]

Read,

Charles is more than welcome to state his case here.

As has been mentioned repeatedly, Joel has been an ardent, almost enthusiastic supporter of CAR for a good year.

Joel and I converse almost daily, and the past few weeks often the topic of conversation was Joel expressing frustration at how unbelievable it was that CAR simply wouldn't stand behind his product. So, you can feel confident that he'd replace your brush, but you don't have a faulty $250 brush sitting crookedly on your countertop, so in this case, I'd say experience trumps feeling.

I also agree, everyone should feel free to post their honest opinion of products, whether it be good, or bad.

Lastly, just about when this site first started, as you joined just a week or so after it opened, Joel sent me an email saying "A guy named Read just joined. He'll probably ask you to delete his account, as he did that 5 or 6 times on SMF." Low and behold, a month or so after that, you proceeded to ask me to delete your account, and when I told you I don't have the authority to do that, but I could ask the mods if you'd like me to, you tried PMing the admin account (which is just there for site maintenance). I suppose it's a good thing your account wasn't deleted after all?

Thanks for your post, and welcome aboard, we hope you'll continue to join in on the conversation.

-Nick

[Read]

Read,

Charles is more than welcome to state his case here.

As has been mentioned repeatedly, Joel has been an ardent, almost enthusiastic supporter of CAR for a good year.

Joel and I converse almost daily, and the past few weeks often the topic of conversation was Joel expressing frustration at how unbelievable it was that CAR simply wouldn't stand behind his product. So, you can feel confident that he'd replace your brush, but you don't have a faulty $250 brush sitting crookedly on your countertop, so in this case, I'd say experience trumps feeling.

I also agree, everyone should feel free to post their honest opinion of products, whether it be good, or bad.

Lastly, just about when this site first started, as you joined just a week or so after it opened, Joel sent me an email saying "A guy named Read just joined. He'll probably ask you to delete his account, as he did that 5 or 6 times on SMF." Low and behold, a month or so after that, you proceeded to ask me to delete your account, and when I told you I don't have the authority to do that, but I could ask the mods if you'd like me to, you tried PMing the admin account (which is just there for site maintenance). I suppose it's a good thing your account wasn't deleted after all?

Thanks for your post, and welcome aboard, we hope you'll continue to join in on the conversation.

-Nick

Nick,
I don't believe Charles, or any vendor for that matter should feel like they have to state their case on any forum. Most businessmen probably do not have the time.

My account status has nothing to do with this thread. But since you felt the need to bring it up - I asked for my account to be closed after my posts were deleted. That was fine with me as I mentioned then the only reason I wanted it closed was because I didn't have the time to really be active.

Back to CAR. Yes, I do know Charles would do right by the brush (at least for me). If he won't for Joel, I know from experience that there must be more to the story. I will leave it at that.

Please get whatever permission you need and delete my account.

Thank You,
Read

[Joe Lerch]

I've read Joel's posts about his experience with the Shavemaster brush, and though I can’t comment on the brush itself, I must say I certainly don’t recognize either Charles or Jean in Joel’s characterization!
Hey Ludwig, nobody asked you for a character reference for CAR. What's the point of your irrelevant tripe?

If a guy is writing a review of a product I expect a fair review, and I expect to be told about any unusual treatment from the vendor. Anything else would be dishonest, and I would be very unhappy if I wasn't told the kind of thing that happened here. Lots of people rely on these reviews in making purchases, and we're not talking about peanuts here. I've never seen Joel do a review here or on SMF that wasn't complete, fair and even handed. I'm very happy that Joel gave us the whole story this time and may saved a lot of us from making a big mistake.

So, what was your issue with the review? Why are you suggesting that Joel faked something or was dishonest? Are you so naive as to believe that if a salesan is nice to you on the phone when selling you expensive products that they must be that way and anyone who had a contrary experience must be a liar?

I just don't get it. What was the point of that post? Why all these innuendos against a guy who gave us an honest review and accounting of how he was treated? Unless you have some more information for us, I think an apology would be in order.

[Joe Lerch]

Michael,
I agree with your assessment of Charles and Jean. There is always two sides to every story and I am sure we don't know it all but I have no doubt that Charles and/or Jean would welcome the opportunity to make things right with one of their customers; at least that has always been my experience. I would not be satisfied in the least if I had a brush as shown in the previous thread but I feel confident that it would be replaced at no charge or inconvenience to me. While Joel has the right to state his case and disparage a vendor, it is proper for those of us with different experiences to say so too. There is more than meets the eye here, past history and all, so one should consider both sides' reputations before assuming anything.
So, you assume Joel must be withholding something because CAR sweet talks you on the phone?

Do you have any facts, or do you just enjoy stirring up controversy?

I think you and Ludwig need to get together and start a thread on how saintly CAR is and that anybody that says anything bad about him must be a liar.

[Nick]

Nick,
I don't believe Charles, or any vendor for that matter should feel like they have to state their case on any forum. Most businessmen probably do not have the time.

You said: "There is always two sides to every story and I am sure we don't know it all..." I was not suggesting that Charles has to state his case, I was simply pointing out that he has the second side to this story, and he's welcome to share it if he'd like.


My account status has nothing to do with this thread.

In your prior post, you stated:


There is more than meets the eye here, past history and all, so one should consider both sides' reputations before assuming anything.

The past history is, on another like forum, you repeatedly asked for your account to be deleted. I am not positive if it was deleted, and then you created it again, and asked for it deleted again, as I was not present when that occurred. You then came over here and started doing the exact same thing, which is pecuiliar behavior at the least. What's more pecuiliar is that you feel that past history and reputation is important for other people, so I naturally assumed it applied to you as well, I guess not?

To the best of my recollection, CAR has some "history" too (which you neglect to mention). I won't mention it as I don't feel it's particularly germane to the topic at hand. The main issue is, after a year of touting CAR's products, did Joel purchase a $250 brush (along with hundreds of dollars of other products during that purchase), and then with the intent to deceive this forum yank hairs from said $250 brush, and fabricate pictures, and concoct a story? Well, you're free to come to any conclusion on that matter. If I can steal Occam's Razor from our friend Mr. Greenberg for a moment.....


But since you felt the need to bring it up - I asked for my account to be closed after my posts were deleted. That was fine with me as I mentioned then the only reason I wanted it closed was because I didn't have the time to really be active.

Which posts were deleted (I'm geniunely curious)? It's a policy here to "soft delete" so that a record of the deleted thread, or post still remains. I searched, and the only post of yours I could find that was deleted was in this (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1783) thread, and the post was deleted by yourself, no one else. If there are other posts you made that were deleted, I'm anxious to hear about them as that would mean there was a hiccup along the way.

While we're on the subject (since I brought it up, and you continued down that path), do you mind if I ask what your reasons were for wanting to have your account deleted from SMF? Also, if I could ask, how does your account remaining here affect you if you don't have the time to remain active? Most people just stop coming to a forum they don't have time for, they don't try to have their account deleted.


Back to CAR. Yes, I do know Charles would do right by the brush (at least for me). If he won't for Joel, I know from experience that there must be more to the story. I will leave it at that.

Why leave it at that? Why leave it at insinuation and innuendo? If Charles gives you such outstanding service (which I can't comment to one way or the other, as I have never had any dealings with him), why don't you ask him what's being left out from the story?


Please get whatever permission you need and delete my account.

I'll raise the issue with the mods. As I told you the last time you requested, they're the ones with the authority to make that determination, not me.

Happy New Year, :smile:

-Nick

P.S. Occam's Razor in a nutshell: If you're at Churchill Downs and you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra.

[HlSheppard]

The best think I can think of right now is to echo Scotto's earlier thought:


I would suggest everyone take a collective deep breath from here on in and stick to the facts. If you have good experiences, continue to share them. If someone has poor ones, share those too. Everyone can make their own conclusions without getting too personal.

It's one thing to say "Hey - I've always been treated properly by Charles R." it would be completely another thing to say "You're lying because I've never been treated like you're describing."

Personally, I've always had good service from Enchante and I have also been a user/supporter of their products. Frankly, it was Joel's pictorial "My Foray Into Methodshaving" that demystified the whole process enough for me to take the leap.

Just because my experiences have all been good ones with this vendor does NOT mean that what Joel states didn't happen. Furthermore, because Joel had/has a problem with the vendor doesn't mean you can't do business with them in the future. Facts are our friends.

I do wish that Charles would address this somehow. We have many vendors that particpate in the forum. If he can take the time to send e-mails (and I know he does) then it's no different to post some responses here. Again - I would welcome it from the standpoint of hearing both sides of the story. Based on what I've heard so far, Joel's treatment would certainly seem indefensible.

Many folks (including myself) look forward to Joel's pictorials/reviews. I don't always agree with what he says about a product because what he likes and what I like may differ. That's half the fun. The decision to make that purchase is always mine. In this instance, what stands to be gained by lying about what happened?

For me, watching how this plays out will certainly affect any further decisions I make, however...:mad:

[methodshaving.com]

I think a lot of people are missing a few point and Joel I think you need to think about something as well. The issue at hand is not if CAR has stood behind the product. Joel has mentioned that he offered to repair or replace the brush after it was returned. No where in his policies or terms and conditions does he offer and advance replacement policy. So I believe by offering to repair or replace the returned brush is standing behind the product. The issue is Joel is upset that this is the only option that has been presented and that he has to be inconvienieced.

Well Joel I think you should think of it in these terms. If the brush you have is having the issues you say it is, and no one is denying this, then maybe the issue is deeper than it appears. If this is the case maybe it makes sense for the manufacturer to inspect the defect and determine if the fix is required of all the existing product. If this is the case it gives them the opportuntiy to fix yours and all other brushes. It also stops the possibilty of you getting another brush that will suffer the same fate.

I understand not wanting to be inconvienced and out of a brush but thinks of the facts. What I can't understand is why you would self a broken brush and who who be so stupid as to buy it. If you have this kind of time, send it in for repair/replacement and then sell a good brush to someone.

[Clark]

I have watched this thread evolve and just had to ask a question. I never hear negative comments about QED or EMS Place. Seems to me that some of the new and old vedors are just not good business people plain and simple. I guess I am glad I found QED and EMS Place and to be honest I will not go anywhere else. Both are great to talk with honest and produce a super product and stand behind it.


Remember there is no product that gives you the perfect shave it does not exist.

Enjoy shaving for what it is!

[guenron]

Adam,
First, I hope you have a Happy New Year. Now for one point that underlies the entire issue. Let us first assume that CAR cannot afford to cross-ship a replacement for the defective merchandise he originally shipped. Assuming this at least eliminates the issue of just plain miserable customer service. So that brings us to the real point, how does a piece of goods like that get shipped to a customer? It seems that all of the flowery manure is just that, manure. This brush is no quality product, it's obviously a piece of garbage thrown into the mail to collect the good old dollar. Obviously no one inspects this trash before it is shipped. That handle certainly is not indicative of any quality other than greed.
Sorry, this incident really tells all that need be said about this merchandiser..

[Scotto]

Folks, I think this thread has outlived its already dubious usefulness and we should just let it die. People have posted their individual opinions of this vendor, and based on this and other accounts, we can make our own personal conclusions. Anything further will just further degenerate into name calling.

[joel]

I think a lot of people are missing a few point and Joel I think you need to think about something as well. The issue at hand is not if CAR has stood behind the product. Joel has mentioned that he offered to repair or replace the brush after it was returned. No where in his policies or terms and conditions does he offer and advance replacement policy. So I believe by offering to repair or replace the returned brush is standing behind the product. The issue is Joel is upset that this is the only option that has been presented and that he has to be inconvienieced.

If this is the case maybe it makes sense for the manufacturer to inspect the defect and determine if the fix is required of all the existing product. If this is the case it gives them the opportuntiy to fix yours and all other brushes. It also stops the possibilty of you getting another brush that will suffer the same fate.


Adam,
Over the phone, BEFORE I purchased the shaving brush, I asked Charles as to the quality/potential longevity, etc etc. He blatantly told me, that if there was a problem with the brush, he would REPLACE it. He specifically did not say "fix it" although that may be what he aimed to infer. The REAL issue here Adam, is that I was sent a new-defective shaving brush after having been promised over the phone, ALL of the prototype's "errors" had been fixed. This was NOT the case, and I was sent a defective brush. I had NO problem sending it back to him for REPLACEMENT, however why would/should I have to send it back on my dime, and my inconvienience when it was HE who sent me defective material? If you ordered a dell computer, and BRAND new it had a defective DVD drive - would you deem it reasonable, to have to send your computer back on your $, and your time -to have the drive fixed? You - being out a new computer for at the MINIMUM 1/2 a month, whilst having your $ tied up in a product you cannot use, and that is faulty?

What dell does - is offer CUSTOMER SERVICE - they send out a new drive on THEIR dime as it is THEIR mistake, then have a return shipment box that you can send the old DEFECTIVE product back.

What I think you FAIL to recognize, or pay attention to - is the fact that the man out and out called me a liar for me PERSONALLY preferring the prototype brush. WHAT IS YOUR EXCUSE FOR THIS ADAM? When should a retailer EVER call a HEAVY consumer a liar? It is the 80 - 20 rule.... 80% of sales will come from 20% of the customers, so keeping a high $, high spending customer happy is quintessential.

FLAT OUT.... would you accept McDonald's food and service at a 5-STAR, $100 a person resturant?

I was treated like crap when I received a bad product, and expected to put forth $ to simply "repair" the brush. The "repair" was offered as a favor Adam.

So guess what... yes you are correct, nowhere on his website does he offer replacement/repair for his shaving brushes.... so who in hell would want to buy a untried, untrued, extremly expensive product that obviously has quality control issues?

My guess... now that the gig is up? VERY FEW.

[Joe Lerch]

If the brush you have is having the issues you say it is, and no one is denying this, then maybe the issue is deeper than it appears. If this is the case maybe it makes sense for the manufacturer to inspect the defect and determine if the fix is required of all the existing product. If this is the case it gives them the opportuntiy to fix yours and all other brushes. It also stops the possibilty of you getting another brush that will suffer the same fate.
As a general principle, I would agree, but these problems are so blatant that minimal quality control would uncover them. In other words, with these kinds of defects, he should take the brush back and send it to the manufacturer. Or maybe it shouldn't have been released at all until such basic problems were taken care of.

I certainly would not buy the brush under those terms.

[Joe Lerch]

There's something I would like to see here before this thread ends, and I think it's important.

Everything you buy has some kind of warranty. When you buy goods, the laws of every state give it to you automatically. As a minimum, the product is supposed to be good for its intended purpose. I don't think that happened here.

Does anybody have any experience with manufacturer's and seller's warranties on brushes? Has anybody had any experiences they can share?

I seem to remember hearing some people comment very favorably on Berndt's handling of issues on the SRP brushes.

The practices of the industry would be interesting, not only to the present issue, but to all of us generally.

[Scotto]

I hate to keep this thread alive, but I'll throw in my experience with a bum brush. A while back, Charles of QED (http://qedusa.com)was selling what was then called SR-230's, a big brush that was different from the newer tortoise shell ones he now sells. The first batch of them had problems had hair shedding problems. After that, Charles thought the problem had been traced back to a manufacturer's error, and the issue was resolved.

Some time later, I ordered an SR-230. Lo and behold the thing started losing hairs. Maybe 5-10 a day, nothing as bad as Joel's brush. I called Charles, who gave me his sincerest apologies, and related his ire that the problem had reoccured. He immediately offered any brush he had in stock, even if it was a higher price, to ship out to me immediately. He also explained that normally he would have told me to toss the defective brush, but he politely requested that I ship it back to him at my leisure so that he could examine it. Needless to say, he also reimbursed my shipping. In a nutshell, I got a sincere apology and an immediate replacement (even if it cost him more $$), and he got a very happy customer who has sent a lot more orders his way. That is customer service, period.

To add an even more recent occurance, I just got a bottle of Musgo Real aftershave from Charles. This was the first time I had ever bought it, and it had a bit of a white residue on the bottom of the bottle, which made the aftershave slightly cloudy when shaken. Not knowing if this was normal, I sent Charles an e-mail asking. Within the same day, I got back an e-mail from Charles stating that he and his assistant had examined multiple bottles in their stock, noted the same thing as me, and he even splashed some on himself to see if the fragrance had been affected :tongue: . His conclusion was the new formulation had some natural ingredients that were causing the residue, and he felt that there was no problem, but he was happy to take it back if I was not completely satisfied.

Enough said.:glare:

[HlSheppard]

Joe brings up a good point about implied warranties.

I also get warranties through the credit cards that I purchase with. Some off full replacement while other extend (double) the original Mfg. warranty.

Good thinkin'! :yesnod:

[Joe Lerch]

I hate to keep this thread alive, but I'll throw in my experience with a bum brush.
Thanks for sharing.

I think you're right; there would be no point in continuing this thread the way it was going. But some good can come from this thread if we create a record of how we, as customers, have been treated in similar circunstances.

Keep it coming guys.

[Joe Lerch]

There was an incident I witnessed on SRP where a Canadian member ordered fragrances from The Gentlemens Shop in the UK. Canada has laws about shipping dangerous substances, and the fragrances had alcohol and came under the law. Eventually, they disappeared or were confiscated. John, the owner, responded personally by e-mail and made good on the shipment.

Our favored vendors realize the value of maintaining good will with the boards. Maybe CAR can be more independent because he has a guaranteed stream of income from the method shavers. But shops like TGS, Classic Shaving, QED, and Em's place bend over backwards to make us happy.

[guenron]

There was an incident I witnessed on SRP where a Canadian member ordered fragrances from The Gentlemens Shop in the UK. Canada has laws about shipping dangerous substances, and the fragrances had alcohol and came under the law. Eventually, they disappeared or were confiscated. John, the owner, responded personally by e-mail and made good on the shipment.

Our favored vendors realize the value of maintaining good will with the boards. Maybe CAR can be more independent because he has a guaranteed stream of income from the method shavers. But shops like TGS, Classic Shaving, QED, and Em's place bend over backwards to make us happy.
While I won't dispute that Joe, but I really believe firms become our favored vendors because of excellent customer service such as that offered by (Robert) Johnston, Charles of QED, and Em. That is not inclusive of all the splendid vendors out there, but it certainly does exclude one who has proven to be less than acceptable.

[HlSheppard]

Don't forget Sue (St. Charles)!!

[Shermdog]

Charles of QED is easily the best I have ever ordered from. As a result, he is the only vendor I have used in the past year.

[Read]

So, you assume Joel must be withholding something because CAR sweet talks you on the phone?

Do you have any facts, or do you just enjoy stirring up controversy?

I think you and Ludwig need to get together and start a thread on how saintly CAR is and that anybody that says anything bad about him must be a liar.

In that the mods have not deleted me yet, I will respond. Joe, yes I do have facts. In fact I have used CAR, QED, ClassicShaving, Lee, Ems, et. al probably more than 95% of the folks here. I have had very good results with all of them including CAR; not because he 'sweet talked' me but because he came through with very good results. I have found him to be as honest a businessman as there is, maybe others haven't, but I can only speak from my experience. I don't enjoy stirring up controversy at all but I also don't 'drink the kool-aid' of many on this forum that simply parrot whatever certain members have to say. I will be willing to bet that I have bought more products from CAR's competitors than you have bought from CAR himself, so in that regard I have much more credibility in the discussion than you. I never said anything about Joel withholding anything. If you read my post with an open mind you would have seen that I agreed in that I would not be happy with the brush shown. I also stated that I knew (as well as I can know) that CAR would make good by me if he had sold the brush to me. In that he is apparently not willing to make it good for Joel speaks not only to CAR but to Joel. As I said previously, I make no judgements about that, I will leave it to others to decide. I do not frequent any shaving forums very often anymore due to time constraints. In looking through this one a couple of days ago I ran across this thread and decided to respond. I have been around this much longer than you or Joel, back when there was only one shaving forum. That does not make me any better than you, or any worse. But I do know most of the past history regarding forums, vendors, and members. Again, I don't enjoy stirring up controversy but my two cents are certainly worth as much as yours or anyone's. If you don't like hearing my opinion please get with the mods and ask them to delete my account. If they won't, then on occassion you, me, and others may have to put up with a dissenting opinion. That's life, get over it.

Read

[Joe Lerch]

yes I do have facts. In fact I have used CAR, QED, ...
These are not facts involving this situation. This is your past experience. It has little relevance to what happened here. We're not trying to compare Joel's reputation to CAR's. It's irrelevant, but that's all you're doing. And I read you very clearly, you're saying that there must be another side (what Joel isn't telling us?).

You just repeated what you saud a different way. It doesn't change what you said.

You're entitled to what ever opinion you like, but hen it becomes an unjustified attack against one of us you can expect to hear about it.

[Nick]

In that the mods have not deleted me yet, I will respond.
Convenient how that works eh?


but I can only speak from my experience.
Do you have experience receiving a faulty product? It's a lot easier to treat a customer like royalty when s/he doesn't have a problem.


I don't enjoy stirring up controversy at all but I also don't 'drink the kool-aid' of many on this forum that simply parrot whatever certain members have to say.
Alright, who was passing out punch and didn't invite me? Seriously Read, personal opinion is exactly that. There's no kool aid to drink, just opinion to give, and everyone has one (even you).


I will be willing to bet that I have bought more products from CAR's competitors than you have bought from CAR himself, so in that regard I have much more credibility in the discussion than you.
I'd be willing to bet that Joel has bought more products from CAR's competitors than yourself (despite the fact that over 2-3 years, I've called him a retard every time he's told me how much shaving supplies he's purchased, and I've called him a retard often). But you know what? That means NOTHING. Joe Lerch has consistenly provided two things to this forum: his honest opinion, and help when he saw fit. You?

Also, to jump ahead in your post a little bit, you said: "I have been around this much longer than you or Joel, back when there was only one shaving forum. That does not make me any better than you, or any worse."


I also stated that I knew (as well as I can know) that CAR would make good by me if he had sold the brush to me.
How? (Notice I bolded for the benefit of the readers here your caveat which allows you to sling your spurious accusations.)


In that he is apparently not willing to make it good for Joel speaks not only to CAR but to Joel. As I said previously, I make no judgements about that, I will leave it to others to decide.

But you do make a judgement. To say otherwise is disingenuous at best. I've made a judgement with respect to the veracity of your posts, but unlike you, I have no qualms with regards to that fact.


I do not frequent any shaving forums very often anymore due to time constraints. In looking through this one a couple of days ago I ran across this thread and decided to respond.
Yet another convenient happenstance?


But I do know most of the past history regarding forums, vendors, and members.
Again, since you think history plays so much of a role in all of this (and I don't necessarily disagree), history is, on a previous forum, you asked for your account to be deleted several times. Each time it was deleted, you proceeded to create a new account with the sole purpose of posting a few times, and then asking for your account to be deleted again. I make no judgements towards CAR or Joel's history, but your intents (historically) haven't been purely magnanimous either. I can't speak towards your modus operandi on the previous boards that you mention, but I certainly can presume.


Again, I don't enjoy stirring up controversy
Oh?


but my two cents are certainly worth as much as yours or anyone's.
No one has disputed this fact.


If you don't like hearing my opinion please get with the mods and ask them to delete my account. If they won't, then on occassion you, me, and others may have to put up with a dissenting opinion. That's life, get over it.
Why is the (voluntary and requested) deletion of your account necessary for you to stop posting? That action would not stop you from creating a new account and posting again whenever you feel like it. The only action that could somewhat prevent you from posting your two cents would be to ban you, and your IP address(es). You haven't requested that, and requesting that that action be taken (sort of like deleting your account) would only be necessary if you had no self control.

Finally (for this post), I raised your request to the mods. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn -the mods will reprimand me if I have- when I say that your request has been unanimously rejected.

This board has an unwritten rule: Man up and take responsibility for your own actions. If you don't want to be a member here, don't be. Your actions (like everyone else's, mods and all) are very transparent (another unwritten rule). You're presumably old enough that you have whiskers that need removing. Take responsibility for what you do, and don't be so childish as to think that others should be responsible for you.

-Nick

[Read]

Convenient how that works eh?Nick

Not really.



Do you have experience receiving a faulty product? It's a lot easier to treat a customer like royalty when s/he doesn't have a problem.Nick

Yes, I do.


Joe Lerch has consistenly provided two things to this forum: his honest opinion, and help when he saw fit. You?Nick

So, you base your view of Joe and me on experience? Funny, that's what I was doing in my original post defending CAR.


But you do make a judgement. To say otherwise is disingenuous at best. I've made a judgement with respect to the veracity of your posts, but unlike you, I have no qualms with regards to that fact.Nick

Yes, I did make a judgement in defense of CAR. I did it based on my experience with him and his business as well as based on some of the past history regarding Joel.



Why is the (voluntary and requested) deletion of your account necessary for you to stop posting? That action would not stop you from creating a new account and posting again whenever you feel like it. The only action that could somewhat prevent you from posting your two cents would be to ban you, and your IP address(es). You haven't requested that, and requesting that that action be taken (sort of like deleting your account) would only be necessary if you had no self control.

Finally (for this post), I raised your request to the mods. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn -the mods will reprimand me if I have- when I say that your request has been unanimously rejected.

This board has an unwritten rule: Man up and take responsibility for your own actions. If you don't want to be a member here, don't be. Your actions (like everyone else's, mods and all) are very transparent (another unwritten rule). You're presumably old enough that you have whiskers that need removing. Take responsibility for what you do, and don't be so childish as to think that others should be responsible for you.Nick

Nick, I am not sure why you chose to discuss my account status in the open forum; I certainly didn't bring it up in my original post. You also chose to bring it up again in this message which was based on my response to Joe. I initially told you that I wanted my account deleted because I did not have the time to remain active. That was denied. I requested it again after my previous posts were deleted. You said this did not or could not happen - I say it did. So, in that I did not have the time to devote anyway I did not want to be a 'member' of a forum where I was not wanted. That's it in a nutshell.

Read

[Nick]

Read,

It really boils down to this:

Throughout virtually all of your posts, you mention how important history is, yet fail to see how your history of disingenuous behavior on multiple forums is relevant.
Your first request for account deletion wasn't refused. You asked, I told you I didn't have the power to unilaterally do such, but could forward your request to the moderators. You saw you wouldn't be able to repeatedly create an account and then have it deleted like on a previous board, so you didn't take me up on my offer. Your second request however was refused. For reasons patently obvious to pretty much everyone but yourself.
I did not say that deletion of your post(s) "did not or could not happen" I said it shouldn't have, and I asked you to tell me what posts were deleted, so I could get to the bottom of it. You never responded to that request.Guess what Read, you still could be a 'wanted' member of this forum if you just decided to contribute in a positive fashion. As it is now, your contribution has consisted of abnormal behavior which you've exhibited elsewhere, and making posts impugning character. That's it.

You might be able to get away with this behavior on other forums. When you try it on this one, you'll be called out, pure and simple. So you have three choices: A. Man up, live and learn, get past this, and make a positive contribution here. B. Continue to play the victim "Woe is me, they won't delete my account, so I am forced against my will by some unnatural and unholy power to continue posting here." or C. Man up and stop coming here by your own volition.

The choice is and always has been yours,

-Nick

[Read]

Read,

It really boils down to this:

Throughout virtually all of your posts, you mention how important history is, yet fail to see how your history of disingenuous behavior on multiple forums is relevant.
Your first request for account deletion wasn't refused. You asked, I told you I didn't have the power to unilaterally do such, but could forward your request to the moderators. You saw you wouldn't be able to repeatedly create an account and then have it deleted like on a previous board, so you didn't take me up on my offer. Your second request however was refused. For reasons patently obvious to pretty much everyone but yourself.
I did not say that deletion of your post(s) "did not or could not happen" I said it shouldn't have, and I asked you to tell me what posts were deleted, so I could get to the bottom of it. You never responded to that request.Guess what Read, you still could be a 'wanted' member of this forum if you just decided to contribute in a positive fashion. As it is now, your contribution has consisted of abnormal behavior which you've exhibited elsewhere, and making posts impugning character. That's it.

You might be able to get away with this behavior on other forums. When you try it on this one, you'll be called out, pure and simple. So you have three choices: A. Man up, live and learn, get past this, and make a positive contribution here. B. Continue to play the victim "Woe is me, they won't delete my account, so I am forced against my will by some unnatural and unholy power to continue posting here." or C. Man up and stop coming here by your own volition.

The choice is and always has been yours,

-Nick


Nick,
No need to be so dramatic. I did indeed request cancellation of membership (along with several other old time members) twice on a previous forum. I have requested it here in the manner you have indicated. This is the only board or forum that I have ever been to that does not allow a member to 'unjoin'. I do find that odd. As far as my behaviour, please don't assume to tell me how I should behave. I have not said, nor implied anything untrue about anyone associated with this forum. Again, I simply stated my belief regarding a particular vendor based on experience. I also stated my belief was based on past behaviour of the individual involved. You can think what you want about me; I will always "man up" as you say and take responsibility for my words and actions. My record speaks for itself. I have never had any of my posts on any forum deleted by moderators. I have never been banned from any forum. I have never been 'banned' by any vendor. When the same can be said regarding the parties involved in this discussion then you can assume to educate me on behaviour.

Read

[Nick]

+1

Ooh, that's not a +1 in agreement, that's just increasing the "I don't have time to post here, and sorely wish my account was deleted, but I'll post anyway" counter. :wink:

-Nick

P.S. "My record speaks for itself. I have never had any of my posts on any forum deleted by moderators." Hmmm.... This isn't what you were claiming earlier.....

[guenron]

Nick,
No need to be so dramatic. I did indeed request cancellation of membership (along with several other old time members) twice on a previous forum. I have requested it here in the manner you have indicated. This is the only board or forum that I have ever been to that does not allow a member to 'unjoin'. I do find that odd. As far as my behaviour, please don't assume to tell me how I should behave. I have not said, nor implied anything untrue about anyone associated with this forum. Again, I simply stated my belief regarding a particular vendor based on experience. I also stated my belief was based on past behaviour of the individual involved. You can think what you want about me; I will always "man up" as you say and take responsibility for my words and actions. My record speaks for itself. I have never had any of my posts on any forum deleted by moderators. I have never been banned from any forum. I have never been 'banned' by any vendor. When the same can be said regarding the parties involved in this discussion then you can assume to educate me on behaviour.

Read
BWAHAHAHA!

[Austin]

Gents, this is getting tiresome. I have never had a problem with CAR. I visit his shop at least every other month to purchase blades and sometimes shave cream.

If Read wants his membership cancelled than lets cancel it and move on.

[Read]

BWAHAHAHA!

The most intelligent thing you have said in quite a while.

Read

[Rik]

The most intelligent thing you have said in quite a while.

Read
+2

[guenron]

The most intelligent thing you have said in quite a while.

Read
Time to post? My, my and such insight. I am cut to the quick by your rapier-like wit. Glad to see you have the time for additional contributions.
BWAHAHAHA!!!

[Read]

Time to post? My, my and such insight. I am cut to the quick by your rapier-like wit. Glad to see you have the time for additional contributions.
BWAHAHAHA!!!

Ron,
Yes, I did ask to delete my membership because I did not have time to be active. I wish now I had not even seen this thread, but I did so now I have made the time to defend against something I thought was unjust.
You - like many - continue to parrot only what you are told or hear. You know nothing more about this than I do; at least I said my position was based on my experience. Tell us about the last time you had any business dealings with CAR, we would all love to hear about it. Instead you steadfastly defend Joel who has told us about the terrible conditon of the brush. In fact the brush is so bad he is even willing to sell or trade it now. You obviously did not see any problem with that; you use that thread to take another pot shot at CAR. I'm sure that too was based on your personal experiences.

Nick said in this thread that you (moderators) unanimously rejected my request to delete my membership. In this same thread Austin (a moderator) says he thinks my request should be honored - the truth and ethics around here are astounding. Please use your position as moderator. Reverse your decision (assuming you had one) and ask Nick to delete me from this forum.

Read

[joel]

Ron,

Nick said in this thread that you (moderators) unanimously rejected my request to delete my membership. In this same thread Austin (a moderator) says he thinks my request should be honored - the truth and ethics around here are astounding. Please use your position as moderator. Reverse your decision (assuming you had one) and ask Nick to delete me from this forum.

Read

Read,
I didn't want to respond to this thread, as quite frankly not only is it tiresome, but Nick is providing you a major lashing and it doesn't take 2 to shoot fish in a barrel. What is this now.... +3, +4? :tongue:

Simple fact of the matter is - you have drug it out long enough... at SMF you would create account after account, post ONLY on shaving brush threads (shocking eh?) piss everyone off - get a lashing, call us all ogres, and huff off in a dramatic, backhanded "Please delete my membership" post professing your "cause" - only to re-create an account only a week or two later, to sell and item, or comment on another brush thread. Many moderators here, are also mods at SMF, and remember your pitiful actions of the past all too well.... why play into your foolish game?

In the mod forum we had all agreed to leave your account status active, but opinions CAN/DO change, that does not make someone a "liar" - it may make them sick and tired of hearing your childish, deplorable whining.

Read - the simple fact of the matter is - the past has shown there are only 2 ways of dealing with you.... not deleting your account and giving you what you want - or banning your ip address.... which is what we did at SMF (although I am not sure it is still banned) - and I know this, because upon several moderators requests - I personally did so.

Now for god's sake fella - be a gentleman, and either kick your feet up, relax and have fun, or make good on your threat to be gone.... and be gone. Frankly, we do not need the likes of you... as for years, you have been wholly worthless. Speaking of history - Shall I bring up you stealing Corey Grenburgs Simpson shaving brush he graciously gave you free of charge - after you lied and claimed he simply hadn't cleaned his brush, and that ALL of his findings over the month/s he owned the brush were dead wrong?

If anyone here has a questionable, and deplorable history here my friend.... it is you. You need to spend a good long time in front of the mirror tomorrow morning before you shave.

[Read]

Read,
I didn't want to respond to this thread, as quite frankly not only is it tiresome, but Nick is providing you a major lashing and it doesn't take 2 to shoot fish in a barrel. What is this now.... +3, +4? :tongue:

Simple fact of the matter is - you have drug it out long enough... at SMF you would create account after account, post ONLY on shaving brush threads (shocking eh?) piss everyone off - get a lashing, call us all ogres, and huff off in a dramatic, backhanded "Please delete my membership" post professing your "cause" - only to re-create an account only a week or two later, to sell and item, or comment on another brush thread. Many moderators here, are also mods at SMF, and remember your pitiful actions of the past all too well.... why play into your foolish game?

In the mod forum we had all agreed to leave your account status active, but opinions CAN/DO change, that does not make someone a "liar" - it may make them sick and tired of hearing your childish, deplorable whining.

Read - the simple fact of the matter is - the past has shown there are only 2 ways of dealing with you.... not deleting your account and giving you what you want - or banning your ip address.... which is what we did at SMF (although I am not sure it is still banned) - and I know this, because upon several moderators requests - I personally did so.

Now for god's sake fella - be a gentleman, and either kick your feet up, relax and have fun, or make good on your threat to be gone.... and be gone. Frankly, we do not need the likes of you... as for years, you have been wholly worthless. Speaking of history - Shall I bring up you stealing Corey Grenburgs Simpson shaving brush he graciously gave you free of charge - after you lied and claimed he simply hadn't cleaned his brush, and that ALL of his findings over the month/s he owned the brush were dead wrong?

If anyone here has a questionable, and deplorable history here my friend.... it is you. You need to spend a good long time in front of the mirror tomorrow morning before you shave.

Joel,
You forgot to address any of the issues. You started this with your diatribe against a fine vendor regarding a brush that was so bad that you decided to sell or trade it to one of the fine members of this forum. We have already covered my time at SMF. Share with us your status with that forum. By the way my IP address was never banned. You may have banned someone's but it wasn't mine. Speaking of being banned you do have a history of that though don't you? As far as Corey Greenburg I don't know what you are talking about. I have not had any dealings with Corey. Have you? I will be happy to be gone after you honor my simple request. Until then I will post as I see fit. I have not said anything about anyone on this thread that is not true. Unfortunatly the same cannot be said for everyone else.

Read

[joel]

Joel,
You forgot to address any of the issues. You started this with your diatribe against a fine vendor regarding a brush that was so bad that you decided to sell or trade it to one of the fine members of this forum. We have already covered my time at SMF. Share with us your status with that forum. By the way my IP address was never banned. You may have banned someone's but it wasn't mine. Speaking of being banned you do have a history of that though don't you? As far as Corey Greenburg I don't know what you are talking about. I have not had any dealings with Corey. Have you? I will be happy to be gone after you honor my simple request. Until then I will post as I see fit. I have not said anything about anyone on this thread that is not true. Unfortunatly the same cannot be said for everyone else.

Read

I grow weary of fistfighting a baby.... I am going to make like the rest of the GROWN UP'S on this site Robert Read and ignore you like a fat woman ignores health food. Go find some friends...

[Joe Lerch]

I have not said, nor implied anything untrue about anyone associated with this forum. I guess we all imagined it!


I simply stated my belief regarding a particular vendor based on experienceAnd you've been told that when you impugn anyone here you'll be called on it. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Apparently yours includes the need to be rejected. Why don't you take it somewhere else?

[Read1]

-Post edited for inappropriate conduct-

[HlSheppard]

No sir, I tried to remove myself but undoubtedly the moderators wish me to stay.

Interesting...

Your NEW username with 2 posts behind it tells a different story... Must be one of the virtual "arm twisted behind the back" situations. <all right, who's electronically forcing Read to post????>

This "high minded moderator" is tired of this foolishness. I really don't understand some folks' insatiable need for attention.:frown2:

Welcome to my "Ignore List."

[name edited]

-Post edited for inappropriate conduct-

[name edited]

-Post edited for inappropriate conduct-

[mark the shoeshine boy]

This "high minded moderator" is tired of this foolishness. I really don't understand some folks' insatiable need for attention.:frown2:



ME NEITHER !!!!!!

mark the shoeshine boy

[Chris]

Ah, I see that, as reliable as the Swallows returning to Capistrano and Daylight Savings Time, The Read "Delete my account after I have riled everyone up and caused controversy" request has occured again. It's old.

[HlSheppard]

Mark...

Mark...

Mark...

:hand: