The MMA Thread

[thunderball]

So I know that many of you here are into MMA in all its various forms so I thought it fitting that we have sort of a 'general MMA discussion' thread where we can discuss the subject in all its fistic glory. I know that the odd thread pops up concerning certain events but I wonder if would be better if we had sort of an ongoing discussion where we could banter about this stuff. Whether you watch UFC, WEC, Sengoku, Dream, Cage Rage, DEEP, Shooto, Strikeforce, Pride re-runs or are a practitioner yourself, this thread is for you! :biggrin: Let's keep it cool and have a good time. :thumbup:

For a first topic of discussion (feel free to ignore mine and throw in others) I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the imminent return of one of the baddest dudes from the days of Pride: Ricardo Arona. Admittedly, he's up against an old journeyman, Marvin Eastman, but Ricardo says he's back in shape after a two-year layoff and is hoping to get back into one of the big organizations and make a title run. I was stunned at his knockout at the hands of Soukoudjou a few years back and have missed him ever since...though to be honest I usually was hoping for whomever he was facing ever since he pulled that nasty 'cut squeezing' crap on Sakuraba. What say ye MMA fans? Are Ricardo's best days far behind him or is the 'Brazilian Tiger' going to make a run? Should Machida and Shogun be at all concerned? One thing's for sure, he looks to be back in fighting shape:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/20090908010906_IMG_5616.jpg

[SRock]

He definitely looks game! I have mixed emotions about Arona. I think this is going to be the typical discussion about him. Some are anxious for his return some hate the idea. Me, I'm indifferent on Arona.

[JBLAZE725]

My first memory when I hear Ricardo Arona is when he had Rampage in a triangle choke and Rampage picked him up, slammed him down on the mat about as hard as you can slam a fellow, and knocked him the hell out. Aronas pretty good, but I don't see him beating the top UFC guys. I would love to see Gegard Mousassi come to the UFC though. He seems to have a very complete game and would be quite dangerous to the top guys.

[thunderball]

I would love to see Gegard Mousassi come to the UFC though. He seems to have a very complete game and would be quite dangerous to the top guys.


Mousasi is indeed a very confident and dangerous young man. To see him destroy Babalu like that was....wow. :eek:

[thunderball]

I have mixed emotions about Arona. I think this is going to be the typical discussion about him. Some are anxious for his return some hate the idea. Me, I'm indifferent on Arona.

I know what you mean. For me he was never really a 'personal' favorite but he is one of those fighters that is always good to have around. Strong, fast, scary-looking, and definitely polarizes the fans. A bad man indeed. Hope he does well. :001_smile

[The Nid Hog]

I'll be glad to see him back. It's hard to believe that his big run was in 2005--it seems like it was a decade ago. He looks big, but I'll wait to see how he does against Eastman before I get too excited about his return. Makes me miss Sakuraba and the Pride version of Wanderlei.

[JBLAZE725]

Supposedly Mariusz Pudzianowski, World's Strongest Man competitor is set to make his MMA debut soon. He is said to have some boxing and karate in his background along with unbelieveable strength and conditioning. That should be fun to watch.

[SRock]

My first memory when I hear Ricardo Arona is when he had Rampage in a triangle choke and Rampage picked him up, slammed him down on the mat about as hard as you can slam a fellow, and knocked him the hell out. Aronas pretty good, but I don't see him beating the top UFC guys. I would love to see Gegard Mousassi come to the UFC though. He seems to have a very complete game and would be quite dangerous to the top guys.

Probably THE most famous slam in all of MMA. The only other one that comes close was the suplex suffered by Fedor at the hands of Kevin Randleman, but unlike Arona, Fedor came back to win his bout. Personally I think Fedor is a cyborg.


I'll be glad to see him back. It's hard to believe that his big run was in 2005--it seems like it was a decade ago. He looks big, but I'll wait to see how he does against Eastman before I get too excited about his return. Makes me miss Sakuraba and the Pride version of Wanderlei.

Oh man, if we could have the Sakuraba, Rua, Randleman, Coleman, and Arona from 5 years ago....

Wow!

That and I still really wish Fedor would wise up and join the UFC. His salary will probably bankrupt Strikeforce and then go to the UFC as his career is winding down.

[SRock]

Supposedly Mariusz Pudzianowski, World's Strongest Man competitor is set to make his MMA debut soon. He is said to have some boxing and karate in his background along with unbelieveable strength and conditioning. That should be fun to watch.

Super Mariusz is a beast to be sure. He won "The Worlds Strongest Man" competition five times. He has taken first place in over 40 strong man competitions. He is also fast for a man so muscular. He is a fourth kyu (green belt) in Kyokushin karate, an amateur boxer (near olympic level some claim), a tae kwon do and muay thai practitioner and he's also an avid rugby player "to keep up his stamina and agility."

All of that aside, I hadn't seen any real talk of him fighting in MMA since 2007 when there were rumors of him fighting in K-1.

At 6'1" and 290lbs ripped I think he'd have a hard time cutting down to the 265 maximum to fight in the states. Although he could go to K-1 or fight in other international promotions. It would be neat to see, but I'd be surprised if it happened.

[The Nid Hog]

Super Mariusz is a beast to be sure. He won "The Worlds Strongest Man" competition five times. He has taken first place in over 40 strong man competitions. He is also fast for a man so muscular. He is a fourth kyu (green belt) in Kyokushin karate, an amateur boxer (near olympic level some claim), a tae kwon do and muay thai practitioner and he's also an avid rugby player "to keep up his stamina and agility."

All of that aside, I hadn't seen any real talk of him fighting in MMA since 2007 when there were rumors of him fighting in K-1.

At 6'1" and 290lbs ripped I think he'd have a hard time cutting down to the 265 maximum to fight in the states. Although he could go to K-1 or fight in other international promotions. It would be neat to see, but I'd be surprised if it happened.

This one has New Year's Eve in Japan written all over it!

Anybody psyched for ADCC 2009 later this month? I always enjoy seeing who they can put together for an ADCC event. I wonder if it's going to be broadcast anywhere?

[Kratos]

At 6'1" and 290lbs ripped I think he'd have a hard time cutting down to the 265 maximum to fight in the states. Although he could go to K-1 or fight in other international promotions. It would be neat to see, but I'd be surprised if it happened.

Sure he could drop the weight. All he'd have to do is cut down to say, 1 gram of juice a week instead of 2.5-3. If he has any fighting ability at all he will be awesome. I'd take him over Lesnar. Seems much less, I dunno, white trash. That cop who almost beat him was huge, too, like 315. He pressed that 300+ log like it was a paperweight.

[SRock]

Sure he could drop the weight. All he'd have to do is cut down to say, 1 gram of juice a week instead of 2.5-3.

Yeah, that would be the only way! :lol:

[masonjarjar]

I watched the replay of the Lesnar/Mir II last night. Good lord what a vicious beating. I think the ref should have stopped it a little sooner even.

I don't often get squeamish watching these things, but that was a beat down. The thing is, Lesnar only had 20 pounds on Mir, but it seemed more like 50..

[SRock]

but it seemed more like 50..

or 100.

[JBLAZE725]

Sure he could drop the weight. All he'd have to do is cut down to say, 1 gram of juice a week instead of 2.5-3. If he has any fighting ability at all he will be awesome. I'd take him over Lesnar. Seems much less, I dunno, white trash. That cop who almost beat him was huge, too, like 315. He pressed that 300+ log like it was a paperweight.

I don't see him competing in the UFC for obvious "supplement" issues, but he was reportedly going to sign with a Polish MMA organization. I think he could make the 265 limit, but even dehydrating as much as possible he would have to lose some muscle. He is a beast though and I think he would be the most athletic and powerful HW by far. He's powerful, but he moves extremely well and has great conditioning. I don't know if we'll ever get to see him fight, but it would be one hell of a show.

[The Nid Hog]

I don't see him competing in the UFC for obvious "supplement" issues, but he was reportedly going to sign with a Polish MMA organization. I think he could make the 265 limit, but even dehydrating as much as possible he would have to lose some muscle. He is a beast though and I think he would be the most athletic and powerful HW by far. He's powerful, but he moves extremely well and has great conditioning. I don't know if we'll ever get to see him fight, but it would be one hell of a show.

I guess that he would probably wind up in some M-1 related thing and then see how things go. If he winds up fighting in Japan--where they love freakishly large foreigners--he could keep on the juice and move around from promotion to promotion. Like the gigantic offspring of CroCop and Bob Sapp. Based on how he did, he'd have plenty of time to see if he wanted to clean up and fight in the US.

[JBLAZE725]

I guess that he would probably wind up in some M-1 related thing and then see how things go. If he winds up fighting in Japan--where they love freakishly large foreigners--he could keep on the juice and move around from promotion to promotion. Like the gigantic offspring of CroCop and Bob Sapp. Based on how he did, he'd have plenty of time to see if he wanted to clean up and fight in the US.

If he fights it will more than likely be for some odd foreign promotion that will, like you said, not be too strict on the juice. He would certainly be a huge attraction similar to Bob Sapp, but with more skill and conditioning. It's hard to say exactly where his skill level is at right now, but even if it were merely good he would probably be very dominant.

On another note, was anybody else as impressed with Randy Couture's shape for his last fight? I know he lost to Nogueira, but he is in tremendous shape for a man of any age let alone one coming up on 50. He even inked a new contract for 6 more fights. This guy is amazing.

[The Nid Hog]

On another note, was anybody else as impressed with Randy Couture's shape for his last fight? I know he lost to Nogueira, but he is in tremendous shape for a man of any age let alone one coming up on 50. He even inked a new contract for 6 more fights. This guy is amazing.

This is one of those I know a guy who knows a guy things, but I heard that his conditioning during training was phenomenal. Supposedly they were throwing young wrestlers at him one after another in the "shark tank" and he wore them all down. Pretty incredible.

[thunderball]

. On another note, was anybody else as impressed with Randy Couture's shape for his last fight? I know he lost to Nogueira, but he is in tremendous shape for a man of any age let alone one coming up on 50. He even inked a new contract for 6 more fights. This guy is amazing.

Yeah, I thought he did look pretty darn good. I don't think he can realistically beat most of the top guys anymore but he's still amazing and a huge draw for the UFC. It'll be interesting to see who they put him up against next.

[JBLAZE725]

Yeah, I thought he did look pretty darn good. I don't think he can realistically beat most of the top guys anymore but he's still amazing and a huge draw for the UFC. It'll be interesting to see who they put him up against next.

I think the problem for Randy is that he only wants to fight in big fights that would bring huge crowds. This means either title fights against Lesnar at HW or dropping down to challenge Machida at LHW or fights like a catchweight fight with Anderson Silva or a big name like Tito Ortiz. Problem is he isn't a top contender to get those fights anymore and UFC would have to leapfrog the top contenders to give him these fights. Then in the end he really can't beat these guys at this point in his career. I understand him not wanting to retire or be relagated to a journeyman or gatekeeper status, but truthfully, that's where he needs to be right now. I won't take anything away from him though, he always comes ready to fight and it's hard to count him out.

[The Nid Hog]

I think the problem for Randy is that he only wants to fight in big fights that would bring huge crowds. This means either title fights against Lesnar at HW or dropping down to challenge Machida at LHW or fights like a catchweight fight with Anderson Silva or a big name like Tito Ortiz. Problem is he isn't a top contender to get those fights anymore and UFC would have to leapfrog the top contenders to give him these fights. Then in the end he really can't beat these guys at this point in his career. I understand him not wanting to retire or be relagated to a journeyman or gatekeeper status, but truthfully, that's where he needs to be right now. I won't take anything away from him though, he always comes ready to fight and it's hard to count him out.

You're right. Randy is the Bruno Sammartino of MMA. I don't expect to see him win in a fight, although if he winds up fighting all six, he might pull one or two out. What I expect to see is him playing the part of the old lion--defending his legacy with dignity and courage. UFC's media machine got Chuck a lot of attention but, regardless of his losses, I just don't think that he had the charisma to hold the spotlight. Lesnar and Tito (if he returns for any length of time) are heels and can only take the promotion so far. Randy--or at least the media version of Randy--brings gravity to the sport. Every penny that Zuffa pays him will make money for them.

[SRock]

What makes Randy Couture so amazing and keeps him in the spotlight is the fact that 17 of his 26 fights have involved a title. No one else in MMA has percentages like that with a relatively small number of fights.


Randy--or at least the media version of Randy--brings gravity to the sport. Every penny that Zuffa pays him will make money for them.


+1

[thunderball]

What makes Randy Couture so amazing and keeps him in the spotlight is the fact that 17 of his 26 fights have involved a title. No one else in MMA has percentages like that with a relatively small number of fights.

Whoa, I actually didn't know that little fun fact. That's amazing really. :eek: It's also amazing how many losses he's actually had (and still manages to remain insanely popular!)

[SRock]

Whoa, I actually didn't know that little fun fact. That's amazing really. :eek: It's also amazing how many losses he's actually had (and still manages to remain insanely popular!)

Yeah but when you consider that most of his 10 losses were to reigning champions or number one contenders like Big Nog, Gabe Gonzaga, Brock Lesnar, The Iceman, Vitor Belfort, and Josh Barnett and then factor in that he gives up an average of about 35lbs anytime he fights the HW's and the fact that he avenged most of these losses its pretty easy to see how he remained popular.

[thunderball]

Yeah but when you consider that most of his 10 losses were to reigning champions or number one contenders like Big Nog, Gabe Gonzaga, Brock Lesnar, The Iceman, Vitor Belfort, and Josh Barnett and then factor in that he gives up an average of about 35lbs anytime he fights the HW's and the fact that he avenged most of these losses its pretty easy to see how he remained popular.

True, true.

[FreezerBurns]

Has anyone seen the show "Bully Beatdown?" They pay bullies to step into the cage with an MMA fighter, hosted by Jason "Mayhem" Miller.

[thunderball]

Has anyone seen the show "Bully Beatdown?" They pay bullies to step into the cage with an MMA fighter, hosted by Jason "Mayhem" Miller.

Yeah, I've seen a couple. Obviously highly-staged but the premise of the show is very clever...I mean who doesn't want to see a bully get his just desserts? The gap between the average 'tough guy' or 'bully' and a real deal, trained MMA fighter though is obviously huge. I guess that makes it even more satisfying for the viewer; when the bully steps in there looking confident and talking trash and you just know he's about to enter a world of pain. :biggrin: And of course Miller plays up the crazy host role pretty well too. Hardly realistic, but strangely satisfying. :redface:

[SRock]

Yeah, I've seen a couple. Obviously highly-staged but the premise of the show is very clever...I mean who doesn't want to see a bully get his just desserts? The gap between the average 'tough guy' or 'bully' and a real deal, trained MMA fighter though is obviously huge. I guess that makes it even more satisfying for the viewer; when the bully steps in there looking confident and talking trash and you just know he's about to enter a world of pain. :biggrin: And of course Miller plays up the crazy host role pretty well too. Hardly realistic, but strangely satisfying. :redface:

I haven't seen the show, but you are right about the gap between a trained fighter and a bully/brawler. In my third true/regulated MMA fight my opponent found this out the hard way. He wrestled a couple of years in school and allegedly got into a lot of fights. Eh thought that qualified him for our tournament. Someone supported his claims and he was allowed to enter. Our fight lasted about 30 seconds. He immediately tried for a double leg and my sprawl stopped him. He backed off (too quickly) and I returned the favor pushing him into the wall (padded racquetball court not cage). I transitioned to a high single leg and he did the right thing (for a wrestler) and shifted his weight over my shoulder/back in an attempt to drive me down to the mat. However, that made it all to easy for me to pick him up and drive his head into the mat. He tapped from the slam. He never saw it coming. That is one of the things that I think are difficult for some people to adjust to in the world of Mixed Martial Arts. Many train for so long in one discipline they instinctually do what works under the competitive rules of that discipline. When you eliminate almost all of the rules that is a huge hindrance.

[FreezerBurns]

Yeah, I've seen a couple...Hardly realistic, but strangely satisfying. :redface:

You're right, it is strangely satisfying to watch John "Man of Faith" Murphy beat the tar out of a self proclaimed bleep-hole.

[thunderball]

That is one of the things that I think are difficult for some people to adjust to in the world of Mixed Martial Arts. Many train for so long in one discipline they instinctually do what works under the competitive rules of that discipline. When you eliminate almost all of the rules that is a huge hindrance.

Yep. When you get strikers who have never had a submission put on them, or a wrestler who has never really been punched hard in the face you get all sorts of crazy reactions (or lack thereof). It's like putting a sprinter or a marathon runner into a decathalon. I think that's what makes MMA athletes so amazing; to be 'good' these days you have to have such a wide training base and be prepared for almost any eventuality. Twenty years ago to have an athlete who wrestled in college, has a black belt in jiu-jitsu, and pro boxing/kickboxing experience would have been an extremely rare individual indeed, but now you have leagues of guys like this. Even a 'pure' karate guy like Machida has insane jiu-jitsu (and sumo!) skills and then you have a 'pure' BJJ guy like Nogueira boxing with guys from the Cuban national team. Awesome! It's cool to go back and watch the first couple of Prides and UFCs and marvel at how the level of the sport has improved over the last fifteen years or so. :biggrin:

[SRock]

It's cool to go back and watch the first couple of Prides and UFCs and marvel at how the level of the sport has improved over the last fifteen years or so. :biggrin:

Huge +1

[spanx]

I like to watch fights for their technical applications,but i wish they would open up the rules of what they can do so that a wider array of diciplines can be involved without a hinderence to which tecniques canbe applied. I'm a 2nd dan in hapkido focusing on small circle joint locks ,holds,subs,breaks,and throws.I know the rules barring small joint techniques is for safety but youd be amazed at how fast a persons legs stop working when you slap a proper wristlock on them.Like I said i would like to see some other diciplines get involved not just the same old same old.

[The Nid Hog]

I think that there are a lot of arguments about that. Of course, the original spirit of NHB fighting was that you could do anything you want. A lot of what made it into MMA as we know it today is completely accidental--it's what the guys who were fighting happened to be good at. Some of the stuff that people tried out in the early days is gone--you really don't see any fighters basing their standup on Sumo anymore. Likewise, there isn't any JKD-type midrange trapping. It just doesn't seem to work. Some seems to be less widely practiced--you don't see two fighters going for leglocks much anymore in the post-Bas UFC. Still, it's not gone completely. With the addition of gloves, Pancrase-type slapping has disappeared too. On the other hand, because of Machida, karate is starting to make a comeback--Vitor might show some moves in his upcoming fight.

As far as small joint techniques go, I guess that your arm is just as broken if you don't submit on an armbar and get it broken as it would be if you had it broken in a wristlock. There's an argument that it's too difficult for referees to regulate it. Who knows. There's also some attempt to keep it so that fighters aren't so badly damaged in a match that they can't quickly turn around and fight again (regulations about elbows fall under this too). Maybe if Steven Seagal instead of Rorion Gracie got the UFC going, we'd have a different look to MMA. Instead of Muay Thai and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, there might be a version based on silat and savate. I'm sure that we'll see some changes in the years to come.

Even so, I think that the thing that is going to have the biggest influence on MMA, and the biggest change that i've seen, is the dominance of collegiate wrestling as the basis for most up and coming fighters. There's just a huge pool of experienced groundfighters with a dedication to conditioning that has finally connected up with martial arts. It was always there (and catchwrestling too), but now the floodgates are open.

[FreezerBurns]

Even so, I think that the thing that is going to have the biggest influence on MMA, and the biggest change that i've seen, is the dominance of collegiate wrestling as the basis for most up and coming fighters. There's just a huge pool of experienced groundfighters with a dedication to conditioning that has finally connected up with martial arts. It was always there (and catchwrestling too), but now the floodgates are open.

For the first time in history, exceptional high school and collegiate wrestlers have a high profile, well paying profession to work toward. It almost gives a sense of validity to the athletes who participate sport of wrestling. Before MMA, collegiate wrestlers had two options: Get a job or try to make the Olympic team. Until recently, football, basketball, and baseball players could dream of and work toward a monetarily lucrative professional career in their sport but what could wrestlers do? Try to make the Olympic team and make zero dollars? Finally, good wrestlers have a forum to compete and display their skill and make a living while doing so.

[The Nid Hog]

For the first time in history, exceptional high school and collegiate wrestlers have a high profile, well paying profession to work toward. It almost gives a sense of validity to the athletes who participate sport of wrestling. Before MMA, collegiate wrestlers had two options: Get a job or try to make the Olympic team. Until recently, football, basketball, and baseball players could dream of and work toward a monetarily lucrative professional career in their sport but what could wrestlers do? Try to make the Olympic team and make zero dollars? Finally, good wrestlers have a forum to compete and display their skill and make a living while doing so.

You're absolutely right. In the early days of jiu jitsu's popularity in the US (early 90s), I'd occasionally run into somebody who had grappling experience, but not too many people who had been top level competitors. I think that wrestlers added an important element of intensity to MMA training too. It's hard to believe that not so long ago there was so much resistance to the idea of realistic training. I think that the integration of serious wrestlers into early MMA programs like the Straight Blast Gym changed the face of martial arts in the US.

[SRock]

I like to watch fights for their technical applications,but i wish they would open up the rules of what they can do so that a wider array of diciplines can be involved without a hinderence to which tecniques can be applied. I'm a 2nd dan in hapkido focusing on small circle joint locks ,holds,subs,breaks,and throws.I know the rules barring small joint techniques is for safety but youd be amazed at how fast a persons legs stop working when you slap a proper wristlock on them.Like I said i would like to see some other diciplines get involved not just the same old same old.

I understand where you are coming from on this, but small joint manipulation is both harder for the Refs to see/regulate and more likely to land someone a serious injury. Even when applied properly depending on how the recipient reacts it could land them in serious trouble.


I think that there are a lot of arguments about that. Of course, the original spirit of NHB fighting was that you could do anything you want. A lot of what made it into MMA as we know it today is completely accidental--it's what the guys who were fighting happened to be good at. Some of the stuff that people tried out in the early days is gone--you really don't see any fighters basing their standup on Sumo anymore. Likewise, there isn't any JKD-type midrange trapping. It just doesn't seem to work. Some seems to be less widely practiced--you don't see two fighters going for leglocks much anymore in the post-Bas UFC. Still, it's not gone completely. With the addition of gloves, Pancrase-type slapping has disappeared too. On the other hand, because of Machida, karate is starting to make a comeback--Vitor might show some moves in his upcoming fight.

As far as small joint techniques go, I guess that your arm is just as broken if you don't submit on an armbar and get it broken as it would be if you had it broken in a wristlock. There's an argument that it's too difficult for referees to regulate it. Who knows. There's also some attempt to keep it so that fighters aren't so badly damaged in a match that they can't quickly turn around and fight again (regulations about elbows fall under this too). Maybe if Steven Seagal instead of Rorion Gracie got the UFC going, we'd have a different look to MMA. Instead of Muay Thai and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, there might be a version based on silat and savate. I'm sure that we'll see some changes in the years to come.

Even so, I think that the thing that is going to have the biggest influence on MMA, and the biggest change that i've seen, is the dominance of collegiate wrestling as the basis for most up and coming fighters. There's just a huge pool of experienced groundfighters with a dedication to conditioning that has finally connected up with martial arts. It was always there (and catchwrestling too), but now the floodgates are open.

I agree that wrestling is having a larger and larger impact on the world of MMA. Just like it has from the early days MMA will continue to evolve.


For the first time in history, exceptional high school and collegiate wrestlers have a high profile, well paying profession to work toward. It almost gives a sense of validity to the athletes who participate sport of wrestling. Before MMA, collegiate wrestlers had two options: Get a job or try to make the Olympic team. Until recently, football, basketball, and baseball players could dream of and work toward a monetarily lucrative professional career in their sport but what could wrestlers do? Try to make the Olympic team and make zero dollars? Finally, good wrestlers have a forum to compete and display their skill and make a living while doing so.

+1


You're absolutely right. In the early days of jiu jitsu's popularity in the US (early 90s), I'd occasionally run into somebody who had grappling experience, but not too many people who had been top level competitors. I think that wrestlers added an important element of intensity to MMA training too. It's hard to believe that not so long ago there was so much resistance to the idea of realistic training. I think that the integration of serious wrestlers into early MMA programs like the Straight Blast Gym changed the face of martial arts in the US.

Guys like Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Matt Hughes, Randy and others all contributed to the rise of wrestlers in MMA. When I was in High School I had a friend who was a great Muay Thai practitioner but when we'd spar "all out" as we called it then he was hosed 100% of the time when I got a hold of him. On the flip side of that I had to defend against his strikes or eat some serious shots to get the take down. Great strikers are absolutely amazing to watch but in MMA even great strikers have to work on their take down defense and ground game. Without some grappling ability they'd be owned by a great wrestler on the ground.

[The Nid Hog]

Guys like Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Matt Hughes, Randy and others all contributed to the rise of wrestlers in MMA. When I was in High School I had a friend who was a great Muay Thai practitioner but when we'd spar "all out" as we called it then he was hosed 100% of the time when I got a hold of him. On the flip side of that I had to defend against his strikes or eat some serious shots to get the take down. Great strikers are absolutely amazing to watch but in MMA even great strikers have to work on their take down defense and ground game. Without some grappling ability they'd be owned by a great wrestler on the ground.

That's right. But I think that the athleticism of wrestlers completely changed the game as much as their skills. By the time MMA took off, boxing had declined so much that there was very little cross training. You might be at a gym where people were hitting the heavy bag or the speed bag, but they weren't often doing it under the eye of experienced boxers. As a result, most dojos didn't emphasize the brutal and exhausting side of combat. Mainstream gyms (which didn't even call themselves gyms--nobody seemed to want to face what that would mean) were all about point sparring and forms, and there was a massive debate about why it wasn't even necessary to really mix it up. To be sure, there were groups that were interested in changing things, but a lot of work was being done in garages and backyards--out of the mainstream.

Jiu jitsu changed everything. It made competitors realize that they had to rely on techniques that worked, functional strength and endurance, not a blast of ki that they had developed through hours of kneeling on a straw mat. This is where wrestlers came in. They already knew this stuff and didn't waste any time thinking about the mystical roots of collegiate wrestling. They were used to a much higher level of functional fitness. As more wrestlers got involved in MMA (which nobody was really calling MMA then), word got out that you had to rely on physical strength and endurance, not the delayed death touch or "crane-catches-fish."

This made gym owners or potential owners realize that there was a big source of possible customers in the US that they had been missing. Guys that I knew who owned martial arts schools couldn't support themselves with the occasional former military guys or roughnecks that were interested in more hardcore combat. One of my friends who operated a fairly successful school told me that it was hard to keep a customer beyond three months. A big part of martial arts appeal--the "Karate Kid" factor--was to people who weren't particularly athletic and who wanted to learn to defend themselves. Sometimes they were converted, but more often they were turned off by the intensity or they just didn't like getting punched in the eye. Schools had to turn to cardio kickboxing or little ninja classes to ensure a steady cash flow. My sense of the change is that getting wrestlers into storefront dojos made it possible for more places to have better, more realistic schools.

[SRock]

That's right. But I think that the athleticism of wrestlers completely changed the game as much as their skills.

I agree. It's nice to have other enthusiasts to discuss this with. I'm really digging this thread!

[Obsessed]

Are you guys willing to tolerate a question from a guy who know nothing about this? I'm just wondering what's off limits and how these guys avoid getting killed. For example:


However, that made it all to easy for me to pick him up and drive his head into the mat. He tapped from the slam..

I remember as a kid when Turkey Jones of the Browns slammed Terry Bradshaw's head into the ground during a game, and Bradshaw was out of commission.

[FreezerBurns]

Are you guys willing to tolerate a question from a guy who know nothing about this? I'm just wondering what's off limits and how these guys avoid getting killed. For example:



I remember as a kid when Turkey Jones of the Browns slammed Terry Bradshaw's head into the ground during a game, and Bradshaw was out of commission.

From the UFC website:
No head butting or kicking to the downed opponent
No knees to the head of a downed opponent
No downward point of the elbow strikes
No strikes to the spine or the back of the head
No groin or throat strikes

I'd be willing to bet biting and hair pulling is off limits as well. Oh, and no holding on to the cage.

[SRock]

Are you guys willing to tolerate a question from a guy who know nothing about this? I'm just wondering what's off limits and how these guys avoid getting killed. For example:

Fouls

The following acts are universally considered fouls in the mixed martial arts world:

- Head butting.
- Eye gouging.
- Hair pulling.
- Biting.
- Fish-hooking.
- Attacking the groin.
- Strikes to the back of the head and spinal area.
- Strikes to, or grabs of the trachea.
- Small joint manipulation (control of three or more fingers/toes is necessary).
- Intentionally throwing your opponent out of the ring/cage.
- Running out of the ring/cage.
- Purposely holding the ring ropes or cage fence.
- Grabbing or putting a hand inside the trunks or gloves of the opponent.

In N. America you cannot knee or kick a downed opponent (knees on the ground or lower) in the head (i.e. no soccer kick). You cannot stomp down on a downed opponent or jump feet first onto a downed opponent.


I remember as a kid when Turkey Jones of the Browns slammed Terry Bradshaw's head into the ground during a game, and Bradshaw was out of commission.

Luckily in the case of my match my opponent went ten kinds of googly eyed but wasn't knocked out. He was so rattled he tapped and said, "I can't, I quit". He wasn't injured. A few minutes after and he was fine.

The fact that there is no standing count (such as in boxing) prevents people from taking horrendous amounts of abuse such as in boxing where a man's head can get pummeled over and over and over and as long as he gets back up and stands on his own before the count is up he can go back in and have his head bashed on over and over and over. Getting knocked out swiftly is typically going to be less damaging to you physically than having your skull rattled around forever. All in all I think people are more likely to get severely injured in traditional boxing than they are in MMA. Think of all the matches that end in a submission or G&P which isn't always as painful as it looks, but once you lose control and the ability to defend the ref calls the fight. In boxing the goal and only real goal is to pound your opponent in the face until he cannot go on.


From the UFC website:
No head butting or kicking to the downed opponent
No knees to the head of a downed opponent
No downward point of the elbow strikes
No strikes to the spine or the back of the head
No groin or throat strikes

I'd be willing to bet biting and hair pulling is off limits as well. Oh, and no holding on to the cage.

These are correct and a few others above as well.

[thunderball]

Fouls

The following acts are universally considered fouls in the mixed martial arts world:

- Head butting.
- Eye gouging.
- Hair pulling.
- Biting.
- Fish-hooking.
- Attacking the groin.
- Strikes to the back of the head and spinal area.
- Strikes to, or grabs of the trachea.
- Small joint manipulation (control of three or more fingers/toes is necessary).
- Intentionally throwing your opponent out of the ring/cage.
- Running out of the ring/cage.
- Purposely holding the ring ropes or cage fence.
- Grabbing or putting a hand inside the trunks or gloves of the opponent.

In N. America you cannot knee or kick a downed opponent (knees on the ground or lower) in the head (i.e. no soccer kick). You cannot stomp down on a downed opponent or jump feet first onto a downed opponent.



Luckily in the case of my match my opponent went ten kinds of googly eyed but wasn't knocked out. He was so rattled he tapped and said, "I can't, I quit". He wasn't injured. A few minutes after and he was fine.

The fact that there is no standing count (such as in boxing) prevents people from taking horrendous amounts of abuse such as in boxing where a man's head can get pummeled over and over and over and as long as he gets back up and stands on his own before the count is up he can go back in and have his head bashed on over and over and over. Getting knocked out swiftly is typically going to be less damaging to you physically than having your skull rattled around forever. All in all I think people are more likely to get severely injured in traditional boxing than they are in MMA. Think of all the matches that end in a submission or G&P which isn't always as painful as it looks, but once you lose control and the ability to defend the ref calls the fight. In boxing the goal and only real goal is to pound your opponent in the face until he cannot go on.



These are correct and a few others above as well.

Awesome post! :biggrin:

[SRock]

Awesome post! :biggrin:

Thanks brother, I'm here for the team!

[Obsessed]

Thanks for the info!

[The Nid Hog]

I thought maybe I'd build on some of the discussion that we've already had about what's allowed and what isn't. In the US, almost all mainstream MMA follows the pattern of the UFC. In Japan, there's a pretty wide variety. Dream is relatively similar to UFC, with a ring instead of a cage and a few different rules. K-1 is fairly straightforward kickboxing. Other promotions like Pancrase have been even more different--like catch wrestling and bare-knuckle fighting combined.

Here's my question--what kind of non-UFC martial arts competition would you like to see in the US? I mean legit stuff--not two guys with chainsaws. I'd like to see more stickgrappling. Full contact submission fighting built around Filipino martial arts like arnis/escrima/Inosanto kali plus grappling. The most famous practitioners are the Dog Brothers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs

How about you? What do you want to see?

[SRock]

Personally I'm pretty happy with MMA. I like the idea of challenging various styles.

Bruce Lee said it best, "Having no style as style".

Although Dan Inosanto was/is the man and Escrima is a riot to watch.

I like true submission fights that don't allow strikes from a purely technical standpoint but the average person doesn't get the intricacies of it all (which is why many MMA fans boo when it hits the ground unless it is G&P).

[SRock]

So I know that many of you here are into MMA in all its various forms so I thought it fitting that we have sort of a 'general MMA discussion' thread where we can discuss the subject in all its fistic glory. I know that the odd thread pops up concerning certain events but I wonder if would be better if we had sort of an ongoing discussion where we could banter about this stuff. Whether you watch UFC, WEC, Sengoku, Dream, Cage Rage, DEEP, Shooto, Strikeforce, Pride re-runs or are a practitioner yourself, this thread is for you! :biggrin: Let's keep it cool and have a good time. :thumbup:

For a first topic of discussion (feel free to ignore mine and throw in others) I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the imminent return of one of the baddest dudes from the days of Pride: Ricardo Arona. Admittedly, he's up against an old journeyman, Marvin Eastman, but Ricardo says he's back in shape after a two-year layoff and is hoping to get back into one of the big organizations and make a title run. I was stunned at his knockout at the hands of Soukoudjou a few years back and have missed him ever since...though to be honest I usually was hoping for whomever he was facing ever since he pulled that nasty 'cut squeezing' crap on Sakuraba. What say ye MMA fans? Are Ricardo's best days far behind him or is the 'Brazilian Tiger' going to make a run? Should Machida and Shogun be at all concerned? One thing's for sure, he looks to be back in fighting shape:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/20090908010906_IMG_5616.jpg

Looks like he did alright in his return:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/arona-outpoints-eastman-at-bitetti-combat-4-19656

[Shane27]

What are everyone's thoughts on the UFC fight night Wednesday and the beginning of the Ultimate Fighter Heavyweights?

I have been looking forward to it for weeks :)

[SRock]

What are everyone's thoughts on the UFC fight night Wednesday and the beginning of the Ultimate Fighter Heavyweights?

I have been looking forward to it for weeks :)

I'm always looking forward to TUF!

[spanx]

A couple of the rules confuse me and I would like your input.The first applies to neck cranks and throat related manuvers.If you crank a neck in a fast motion you can damage the spinal cord. This is a good rule to have, but they allow gullitine chokes.A gullitine choke is equally as dangerous because pressure is applied to the trachea and the vertabrea is stretched vertically.This can also lead to spinal cord damage.Also I'd like to know why anlke related manuvers are allowed but not wrist moves.ankles are just as fragile.If an ankle is broken it is harder to reabilitate because of their complexity which in my opinion can more easily end a career.One other thing for now is why don't they abide by the rules they make?Specifically the point of the elbow downward strikes.This is against the rules,But if anyone watched Diego fight Clay the rule seemed not to apply.I was thinking of a couple of other things but I lost my train of thought.So any clarity you can give I would appreciate.

[SRock]

A couple of the rules confuse me and I would like your input.The first applies to neck cranks and throat related manuvers.If you crank a neck in a fast motion you can damage the spinal cord. This is a good rule to have, but they allow gullitine chokes.A gullitine choke is equally as dangerous because pressure is applied to the trachea and the vertabrea is stretched vertically.This can also lead to spinal cord damage.Also I'd like to know why anlke related manuvers are allowed but not wrist moves.ankles are just as fragile.If an ankle is broken it is harder to reabilitate because of their complexity which in my opinion can more easily end a career.One other thing for now is why don't they abide by the rules they make?Specifically the point of the elbow downward strikes.This is against the rules,But if anyone watched Diego fight Clay the rule seemed not to apply.I was thinking of a couple of other things but I lost my train of thought.So any clarity you can give I would appreciate.

Actually a guillotine choke can be applied one of two ways. The first as you mention restricts the flow of air. However, because it is applied in a pressure fashion and not a striking fashion it allows the person receiving it to respond when it becomes painful and before it is damaging/dangerous. The other way it is applied restricts the flow of blood to the brain and causes a person to pass out as well. Some wrist maneuvers are allowed. In fact in the UFC any hand or foot maneuver must encompass pressure being applied to "three or more" fingers or toes so it doesn't restrict the wrist or ankle. As for the elbows thats a tough one. You can strike with the elbow like you are throwing a punch but you cant use it like a stabbing implement. It really depends on the refs perspective.

[The Nid Hog]

Although Dan Inosanto was/is the man and Escrima is a riot to watch.

Guro Dan is awesome. One of the most unbelievably talented, quietly charismatic people I've ever seen. Everybody says that learning from him is like trying to sip from a firehose.


I like true submission fights that don't allow strikes from a purely technical standpoint but the average person doesn't get the intricacies of it all (which is why many MMA fans boo when it hits the ground unless it is G&P).

I agree. I'm really looking forward to the ADCC 2009 matches in Barcelona later this month (Sept 26 and 26). I think that it's on PPV, but it's also being webcast.

http://www.adcc2009.com/

If you guys living in Japan are interested, it's really easy to find DVDs of past ADCC competitions. I was working out at a Gold's Gym in Chiba a couple of years ago and the had a huge selection in their little equipment store.

[spanx]

A guillotine choke can be applied 1 way and that is by wrapping your arm around the back of the head bringing your forearm (thumb up)across the throat and applying pressure to the windpipe, while also arching you back in order to apply torque to the spine in a vertical fashion. If done slowly this will give time to tap avoiding injury but is no less dangerous.The other way you refered to is not a guillotine, it is a vascular choke by applying pressure to the carotid arteries.This slows the blood flow to the brain which leads to blacking out.There is no vertical torque applied as it will not improve execution of the manuver.There is also no direct pressure on the windpipe so it is far less likely to cause a permanent injury.

[The Nid Hog]

You can strike with the elbow like you are throwing a punch but you cant use it like a stabbing implement. It really depends on the refs perspective.

Although you see lots of elbows like that from the bottom. That's allowed, isn't it?

[spanx]

If you use the point of your elbow to strike then indeed it is a stabbing motion and that is supposed to be against the rules.But the rule is not that clear.Maybe they mean you can't use it to come down on an opponent whho is kneeling of front of you while you are standind.Being that they are on the grounf the striking is the same and the point of impact is the same.So it should not be allowed to go on whether standing or not.The same type of thing has also been talked about when involving knees.It seems that it is ok to do it standing but not ok when on the ground.I'm failing to understand the difference.

[The Nid Hog]

A guillotine choke can be applied 1 way and that is by wrapping your arm around the back of the head bringing your forearm (thumb up)across the throat and applying pressure to the windpipe, while also arching you back in order to apply torque to the spine in a vertical fashion. If done slowly this will give time to tap avoiding injury but is no less dangerous.The other way you refered to is not a guillotine, it is a vascular choke by applying pressure to the carotid arteries.This slows the blood flow to the brain which leads to blacking out.There is no vertical torque applied as it will not improve execution of the manuver.There is also no direct pressure on the windpipe so it is far less likely to cause a permanent injury.


I'm going to agree with Rob (not that this is such a big deal). I think that you can apply the guillotine both ways, inc. vascular. You can also get the guilotine choke w/neck crank without the head being to your side (that's how I'm imagining your description working out). Depending on position, you can jam their head up against your abdomen/chest and get the choke while they're directly to your front--both standing. I learned all of those as guillotines, but maybe there are other names for them?

[Mejnoon]

I'm going to agree with Rob (not that this is such a big deal). I think that you can apply the guillotine both ways, inc. vascular. You can also get the guilotine choke w/neck crank without the head being to your side (that's how I'm imagining your description working out). Depending on position, you can jam their head up against your abdomen/chest and get the choke while they're directly to your front--both standing. I learned all of those as guillotines, but maybe there are other names for them?

I agree with this. There are many variations on the "front choke" out there, but in my experience as long as the arm is not trapped it is referred to as a guillotine.

I used to roll with a guy who was short and very thick...5'6" and about 225, extremely strong power-lifter type build. He used to love to guillotine guys from the top, and he didn't have to get it very tight...he would finish by dropping his chest on your head and turning it in to a neck crank. Nastiest "guillotine" I've ever experienced, he had me tapping fast every time he went for it.

I think its certainly possible for a person to cause spine injuries with a guillotine or other similar techniques, but only if there was a major strength mis-match. Weight classes tend to alleviate such concerns.

[Mejnoon]

Although you see lots of elbows like that from the bottom. That's allowed, isn't it?

As I understand the rule a north-south strike with the point of the elbow is illegal...any other elbow strike is fair game. From the bottom you do often see point of the elbow strikes, but generally travelling parallel to the mat.

[thunderball]

Looks like Randy will be headlining another UFC (105) in England against Brandon Vera.

[The Nid Hog]

Looks like Randy will be headlining another UFC (105) in England against Brandon Vera.

I'll have to check, but I don't think that this is on my list of 100 fights that I'd like to watch. Are they fighting at light heavyweight?

[SRock]

A guillotine choke can be applied 1 way and that is by wrapping your arm around the back of the head bringing your forearm (thumb up)across the throat and applying pressure to the windpipe, while also arching you back in order to apply torque to the spine in a vertical fashion. If done slowly this will give time to tap avoiding injury but is no less dangerous.The other way you refered to is not a guillotine, it is a vascular choke by applying pressure to the carotid arteries.This slows the blood flow to the brain which leads to blacking out.There is no vertical torque applied as it will not improve execution of the manuver.There is also no direct pressure on the windpipe so it is far less likely to cause a permanent injury.

As someone who has been caught in more than one and applied more than one I have to disagree. However, I'm sure we all appreciate the contribution to the thread. Generalizations may get used here more so for the less familiar people who read this thread for information/understanding. There are several ways to apply this "type" of choke and it can be done so that it becomes a vascular choke. There are several different names for chokes done in this/similar fashion depending on the location of your opponents head and exactly how you are applying the pressure/leverage. However for the lay person or non-practitioner most if not all appear to simply be a guillotine and typically in most MMA promotions tend to get lumped together as guillotine chokes.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine_choke):


The Guillotine choke is a chokehold in martial arts applied from in front of the opponent. The choke involves using the arms to encircle the opponent's neck in a fashion similar to a guillotine. The technique is either a type of tracheal compression restraint that prevents air flow to the lungs, or a blood choke depending on how it is applied.

From MMA Training.com (http://www.mma-training.com/guillotine-choke/):


The guillotine is a choke hold that can cause the tap by being either a blood choke or air choke depending on how it is performed. If the pressure from the forearm is placed against the wind pipe then of course you are going to get an air choke but if the pressure is on the arteries of the neck then you will get a blood choke.


If you use the point of your elbow to strike then indeed it is a stabbing motion and that is supposed to be against the rules.But the rule is not that clear.Maybe they mean you can't use it to come down on an opponent whho is kneeling of front of you while you are standind.Being that they are on the grounf the striking is the same and the point of impact is the same.So it should not be allowed to go on whether standing or not.The same type of thing has also been talked about when involving knees.It seems that it is ok to do it standing but not ok when on the ground.I'm failing to understand the difference.

I also think people confuse forearm strikes with elbows because they look very similar, again especially to the non-practitioner/casual fan.


I'm going to agree with Rob (not that this is such a big deal). I think that you can apply the guillotine both ways, inc. vascular. You can also get the guilotine choke w/neck crank without the head being to your side (that's how I'm imagining your description working out). Depending on position, you can jam their head up against your abdomen/chest and get the choke while they're directly to your front--both standing. I learned all of those as guillotines, but maybe there are other names for them?

+1 different martial arts have different names for like/similar moves/maneuvers however in the MMA world it is generally accepted that a Guillotine can be applied with either a tracheal or vascular focus.

[thunderball]

I'll have to check, but I don't think that this is on my list of 100 fights that I'd like to watch. Are they fighting at light heavyweight?

Yep, it looks like it's going to be a light heavyweight bout. And I'm with you...I won't be paying to watch this one. :wink:

[SRock]

Yep, it looks like it's going to be a light heavyweight bout. And I'm with you...I won't be paying to watch this one. :wink:

If I didn't get it for free on AFN I probably wouldn't buy this one either. Overall the card isn't that impressive.

[JBLAZE725]

As far as the Guillotine goes, I've been put in it and it's not fun as well as put people in it, not fun for them. I personally feel the fact that the stopping of the blood flow is always the part that causes the tap or unconciousness regardless of what it feels like. I can pretty easily hold my breath for a minute, i.e. swim underwater or just stay submerged, without going unsoncious or feeling like I'm choking, but a guillotine or rear naked or any one of those chokes will have you feeling ready to go nearly instantaneously after it is fully applied. This is due to the lack of blood flow not the inability to take in breaths. Of course this is my opinion and I have absolutely no scientifical data to support my argument, but it does seem the most logical when considering the facts that I know.

Edit: On another note, the Couture vs. Vera fight really makes no sense to me at all and I am not enthused for that at all.

[FreezerBurns]

Side question: Where does the "Guillotine" choke come from, Jiu Jitsu? I only ask because the "Guillotine" I grew up with in wrestling is not even close to the MMA Guillotine and has nothing to do with choking.

[The Nid Hog]

Side question: Where does the "Guillotine" choke come from, Jiu Jitsu? I only ask because the "Guillotine" I grew up with in wrestling is not even close to the MMA Guillotine and has nothing to do with choking.

Most of the jiu jitsu neck cranks/chokes that I know are grounded in judo. I used to roll with a friend who was a very accomplished judoka and he knew them either with some variation or with a different name.

I'm pretty sure that most of these terms are all from Brazilian jiu jitsu and are either descriptive (like guillotine, anaconda, etc.) or relate to somebody who was known for doing it (Kimura, D'Arce). If you directly translate some of them back into Japanese (rear naked choke), people will know what you're talking about--and with the popularity of BJJ in Japan, some of the new terms have made their way back there.

[thunderball]

Interesting stuff guys (guillotine choke discussion). On an unrelated MMA note, I just read that old stalwart Don Frye got done again in under a minute...love the guy but it might be time to retire. :frown: I'll always remember him and Takayama going at it...if you haven't seen that one, do yourself a favour and check it out. Classic! :biggrin:

[The Nid Hog]

Interesting stuff guys (guillotine choke discussion). On an unrelated MMA note, I just read that old stalwart Don Frye got done again in under a minute...love the guy but it might be time to retire. :frown: I'll always remember him and Takayama going at it...if you haven't seen that one, do yourself a favour and check it out. Classic! :biggrin:

Didn't he just pull out of a fight with Mo Lawal about a month ago? If you're going to get thrashed, you might as well do it for a good purse with an up and coming opponent.

[thunderball]

Actually the guy he fought was 14-1 and looks pretty good on paper anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Herman_(fighter)

Never seen him myself.

[SRock]

Interesting stuff guys (guillotine choke discussion). On an unrelated MMA note, I just read that old stalwart Don Frye got done again in under a minute...love the guy but it might be time to retire. :frown: I'll always remember him and Takayama going at it...if you haven't seen that one, do yourself a favour and check it out. Classic! :biggrin:

Don is 20-8 overall and has won 6 of his last 10 (6-4). However, he has been on a serious downslide with 7 of his 8 losses coming in the last 7 years. However, at 44 years old he was probably Dave Herman's biggest challenge so far.


Side question: Where does the "Guillotine" choke come from, Jiu Jitsu? I only ask because the "Guillotine" I grew up with in wrestling is not even close to the MMA Guillotine and has nothing to do with choking.

The Guillotine, neck crank and other head/neck related submissions are found in several different martial arts including (but not limited to) The original (Japanese) Jujutsu, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, Aikijitsu, Danzan Ryu etc. etc. Most have their own names in native languages but multiple disciplines teach similar and in many cases identical submissions.


Most of the jiu jitsu neck cranks/chokes that I know are grounded in judo. I used to roll with a friend who was a very accomplished judoka and he knew them either with some variation or with a different name.

I'm pretty sure that most of these terms are all from Brazilian jiu jitsu and are either descriptive (like guillotine, anaconda, etc.) or relate to somebody who was known for doing it (Kimura, D'Arce). If you directly translate some of them back into Japanese (rear naked choke), people will know what you're talking about--and with the popularity of BJJ in Japan, some of the new terms have made their way back there.

+1 I think most of those types of submissions have roots in Judo and the world likely owes a Samurai/Judoka for sharing it with the world and allowing it to spread throughout many martial arts.


Didn't he just pull out of a fight with Mo Lawal about a month ago? If you're going to get thrashed, you might as well do it for a good purse with an up and coming opponent.

I don't think either of these two have fought King Mo.


Actually the guy he fought was 14-1 and looks pretty good on paper anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Herman_(fighter)

Never seen him myself.

Looks good on paper but at 44 years old The Predator was probably his biggest test to date.

[The Nid Hog]

I don't think either of these two have fought King Mo.

.

I saw Frye and Lawal on Inside MMA pushing an upcoming fight--I think that it was with M-1. They were pretty funny together. Both went to Oklahoma and that was a source of a lot of ribbing. I didn't think that Frye had much chance of winning, but I thought that he was wily enough not to get pounded out right after the bell. Then the event got moved from California to the Midwest (was it Kansas City?) and Frye bailed out.

[JBLAZE725]

I saw Frye and Lawal on Inside MMA pushing an upcoming fight--I think that it was with M-1. They were pretty funny together. Both went to Oklahoma and that was a source of a lot of ribbing. I didn't think that Frye had much chance of winning, but I thought that he was wily enough not to get pounded out right after the bell. Then the event got moved from California to the Midwest (was it Kansas City?) and Frye bailed out.

I saw that show too. It was pretty damn funny. I didn't keep up with the event after the show though and I didn't even know Frye backed out of the fight. I figured he would lose that fight, but would have never guessed he would opt out of it. I can't wait till tomorrow's Ultimate Fight Night and The Ultimate Fighter Show. It should be an interesting season and the coahes fight at the end should be great. I'm really looking forward to Rampage and Rashad, but I like them both so I don't know who to root for.

[TimmyBoston]

Being a huge UFC, I love this thread. It's filled with great info about tons of stuff I've never heard of. Thanks guys, keep up the good work. :smile:

[thunderball]

Here's a little something I'd like to get you gents' opinions on. To what degree does a fighter 'owe the fans'? Perhaps a few examples will illustrate what I'm getting at:

1) A fighter (not naming pre-Rashad Machida by name or anything...) fights in a style that some find 'boring' though it is undeniably successful. People are clamouring for a change in style to make his fights more exciting for the paying viewers. Does he owe them anything? And to the point where he should consider putting on more of a show just for them?

2) A fighter finds himself grossly overmatched and realizes in the first few exchanges that he is going to get pulverized. Should he sacrifice his body and just go for broke knowing he's going to get KO'd, try to just save his hide and 'run' the entire match, tap out at the first convenient opportunity and save himself getting destroyed?

3) A fighter finds himself undermatched and could knock out his opponent at will. Should he try to end things as soon as possible or draw things out a bit for the paying masses?

There are many opinions on this that I've heard surrounding this: "A fighter should do whatever it takes to win as quickly as possible", "A fighter should put on a show for the fans who ultimately pay his salary", "A fighter should never give up", "A fighter is not an entertainer, his job is to win"....etc, etc. Well you get the general idea.

To what degree should a professional fighter consider the wishes/complaints of the fans (and alter his actions because of them)?

[TimmyBoston]

I love watching Jorge Gurgel. He's a jiu-jitsu wiz, and still he will stand and bang for 3 rounds and do everything he can to give an exciting fight. But sadly in the UFC always having an exciting fight isn't enough and he was let go of his contract.

[SRock]

I saw Frye and Lawal on Inside MMA pushing an upcoming fight--I think that it was with M-1. They were pretty funny together. Both went to Oklahoma and that was a source of a lot of ribbing. I didn't think that Frye had much chance of winning, but I thought that he was wily enough not to get pounded out right after the bell. Then the event got moved from California to the Midwest (was it Kansas City?) and Frye bailed out.

I was pretty sure they never fought, but I totally forgot that they were supposed to fight in the M-1 event on 28 August.

I found this on MMA junkie:


With a complete lack of faith in the promoter, Frye said he made the difficult decision to walk away.


I saw that show too. It was pretty darn funny. I didn't keep up with the event after the show though and I didn't even know Frye backed out of the fight. I figured he would lose that fight, but would have never guessed he would opt out of it. I can't wait till tomorrow's Ultimate Fight Night and The Ultimate Fighter Show. It should be an interesting season and the coahes fight at the end should be great. I'm really looking forward to Rampage and Rashad, but I like them both so I don't know who to root for.

Looks like it was all of the potential date/venue changes and poor marketing on the part of M-1 that prompted Frye to back out.


Here's a little something I'd like to get you gents' opinions on. To what degree does a fighter 'owe the fans'? Perhaps a few examples will illustrate what I'm getting at:

1) A fighter (not naming pre-Rashad Machida by name or anything...) fights in a style that some find 'boring' though it is undeniably successful. People are clamouring for a change in style to make his fights more exciting for the paying viewers. Does he owe them anything? And to the point where he should consider putting on more of a show just for them?

In this instance I don't feel a fighter owes the fans anything. There are fans that only support strikers and fans that are more interesting in G&P and fans that are more interesting in technical submission etc. etc. I agree that Machida can be 'boring at times' especially to the average Joe who may not fully understand or appreciate what exactly is going on and just how technical a fighter someone like Machida is. However, he is very technical and he fights for wins and gets them.


2) A fighter finds himself grossly overmatched and realizes in the first few exchanges that he is going to get pulverized. Should he sacrifice his body and just go for broke knowing he's going to get KO'd, try to just save his hide and 'run' the entire match, tap out at the first convenient opportunity and save himself getting destroyed?

If a fighter quits because he comes to the realization in his mind that he isn't going to win he has no business in the sport. The Natural, a.k.a Captain America, a.k.a Randy Couture is a great example. He has repeatedly defeated men much larger than himself and even people of greater skill. And while he is very technically sound (especially as a grappler) its his heart that has pushed him over the top on more than one occasion. Don't get me wrong if a guy knows he is hopelessly outmatched in the striking dept there is nothing wrong with going for a take down and trying to eliminate that advantage but they should fight on or get out of the fight game.


3) A fighter finds himself undermatched and could knock out his opponent at will. Should he try to end things as soon as possible or draw things out a bit for the paying masses?

A fighter should win a fight in whatever fashion he can and he should do it as quickly and more importantly honorably as he can. I don't think any fighter should carry his opponent or destroy him just because he can. At the same time I don't think a fighter should unnecessarily carry his opponent along for the fans. I think that tarnishes the sport. Granted a 7 second KO is impressive but often leaves people wanting more. Likewise a 25 minute grappling event that goes to a decision can be very boring for some but to those who understand what is going on it is very exciting. I think that's just the nature of the beast. I don't find it honorable to humiliate an opponent by toying with them. If you can get the KO or the submission or the TKO just do it and have enough respect for your opponent to give them all you can. Whether you are the victor or the loser. If they lose they will learn from it and come back stronger. If they don't, again, they don't belong in the fight business.


There are many opinions on this that I've heard surrounding this: "A fighter should do whatever it takes to win as quickly as possible", "A fighter should put on a show for the fans who ultimately pay his salary", "A fighter should never give up", "A fighter is not an entertainer, his job is to win"....etc, etc. Well you get the general idea.

To what degree should a professional fighter consider the wishes/complaints of the fans (and alter his actions because of them)?

I think that no matter what a fighter does he will have fans and haters. Look at Brock Lesnar. He is an athlete and a beast. I mean would you really be surprised to learn he is a cyborg? He's unreal. However, just because his record is 3-1 and he is (or at least acts) like an ass he is surrounded by haters. Nevermind the fact that he has bested Randy, Frank and Heath Herring (who BTW is no slouch). I think it's like any other sport or sports figure. I do think that in professional fighting (be it MMA or Boxing etc.) there are people who will come across like a baby face (to use old pro wrestling terms) and others who will always be seen as a heel. However, I don't think they should overplay either. They should allow their skills as athletes/fighters speak for them.

[SRock]

I was pretty sure they never fought, but I totally forgot that they were supposed to fight in the M-1 event on 28 August.

I found this on MMA junkie:





Looks like it was all of the potential date/venue changes and poor marketing on the part of M-1 that prompted Frye to back out.



In this instance I don't feel a fighter owes the fans anything. There are fans that only support strikers and fans that are more interesting in G&P and fans that are more interesting in technical submission etc. etc. I agree that Machida can be 'boring at times' especially to the average Joe who may not fully understand or appreciate what exactly is going on and just how technical a fighter someone like Machida is. However, he is very technical and he fights for wins and gets them.



If a fighter quits because he comes to the realization in his mind that he isn't going to win he has no business in the sport. The Natural, a.k.a Captain America, a.k.a Randy Couture is a great example. He has repeatedly defeated men much larger than himself and even people of greater skill. And while he is very technically sound (especially as a grappler) its his heart that has pushed him over the top on more than one occasion. Don't get me wrong if a guy knows he is hopelessly outmatched in the striking dept there is nothing wrong with going for a take down and trying to eliminate that advantage but they should fight on or get out of the fight game.



A fighter should win a fight in whatever fashion he can and he should do it as quickly and more importantly honorably as he can. I don't think any fighter should carry his opponent or destroy him just because he can. At the same time I don't think a fighter should unnecessarily carry his opponent along for the fans. I think that tarnishes the sport. Granted a 7 second KO is impressive but often leaves people wanting more. Likewise a 25 minute grappling event that goes to a decision can be very boring for some but to those who understand what is going on it is very exciting. I think that's just the nature of the beast. I don't find it honorable to humiliate an opponent by toying with them. If you can get the KO or the submission or the TKO just do it and have enough respect for your opponent to give them all you can. Whether you are the victor or the loser. If they lose they will learn from it and come back stronger. If they don't, again, they don't belong in the fight business.



I think that no matter what a fighter does he will have fans and haters. Look at Brock Lesnar. He is an athlete and a beast. I mean would you really be surprised to learn he is a cyborg? He's unreal. However, just because his record is 3-1 and he is (or at least acts) like an ass he is surrounded by haters. Nevermind the fact that he has bested Randy, Frank and Heath Herring (who BTW is no slouch). I think it's like any other sport or sports figure. I do think that in professional fighting (be it MMA or Boxing etc.) there are people who will come across like a baby face (to use old pro wrestling terms) and others who will always be seen as a heel. However, I don't think they should overplay either. They should allow their skills as athletes/fighters speak for them.


I love watching Jorge Gurgel. He's a jiu-jitsu wiz, and still he will stand and bang for 3 rounds and do everything he can to give an exciting fight. But sadly in the UFC always having an exciting fight isn't enough and he was let go of his contract.

Jorge is a phenom. If he weren't plagued by injuries and an ugly losing spell in the UFC he'd be even better known. His BJJ is world class and his striking is much improved he will always be a world class BJJ master. He is better than most outside of the UFC so now that he is outside the UFC he will likely rattle off many wins.

[JBLAZE725]

I was pretty sure they never fought, but I totally forgot that they were supposed to fight in the M-1 event on 28 August.

I found this on MMA junkie:





Looks like it was all of the potential date/venue changes and poor marketing on the part of M-1 that prompted Frye to back out.



In this instance I don't feel a fighter owes the fans anything. There are fans that only support strikers and fans that are more interesting in G&P and fans that are more interesting in technical submission etc. etc. I agree that Machida can be 'boring at times' especially to the average Joe who may not fully understand or appreciate what exactly is going on and just how technical a fighter someone like Machida is. However, he is very technical and he fights for wins and gets them.



If a fighter quits because he comes to the realization in his mind that he isn't going to win he has no business in the sport. The Natural, a.k.a Captain America, a.k.a Randy Couture is a great example. He has repeatedly defeated men much larger than himself and even people of greater skill. And while he is very technically sound (especially as a grappler) its his heart that has pushed him over the top on more than one occasion. Don't get me wrong if a guy knows he is hopelessly outmatched in the striking dept there is nothing wrong with going for a take down and trying to eliminate that advantage but they should fight on or get out of the fight game.



A fighter should win a fight in whatever fashion he can and he should do it as quickly and more importantly honorably as he can. I don't think any fighter should carry his opponent or destroy him just because he can. At the same time I don't think a fighter should unnecessarily carry his opponent along for the fans. I think that tarnishes the sport. Granted a 7 second KO is impressive but often leaves people wanting more. Likewise a 25 minute grappling event that goes to a decision can be very boring for some but to those who understand what is going on it is very exciting. I think that's just the nature of the beast. I don't find it honorable to humiliate an opponent by toying with them. If you can get the KO or the submission or the TKO just do it and have enough respect for your opponent to give them all you can. Whether you are the victor or the loser. If they lose they will learn from it and come back stronger. If they don't, again, they don't belong in the fight business.



I think that no matter what a fighter does he will have fans and haters. Look at Brock Lesnar. He is an athlete and a beast. I mean would you really be surprised to learn he is a cyborg? He's unreal. However, just because his record is 3-1 and he is (or at least acts) like an ass he is surrounded by haters. Nevermind the fact that he has bested Randy, Frank and Heath Herring (who BTW is no slouch). I think it's like any other sport or sports figure. I do think that in professional fighting (be it MMA or Boxing etc.) there are people who will come across like a baby face (to use old pro wrestling terms) and others who will always be seen as a heel. However, I don't think they should overplay either. They should allow their skills as athletes/fighters speak for them.

I was going to answer the original post, but you did it so well I don't feel the need. The only thing I would add as far as the fighter owing the fans something and making fights more interesting is that the fighter should do whatever he needs to do for the win, boring or not. It is up to the UFC brass to decide if they want to keep said fighter because he may or may not be a fan favorite due to his style. I understand fighters want to be liked by fans and ultimately need to keep making a living so are afraid to have boring fights, but I don't think they should give themselves less of a chance at winning just to keep the fans happy.

Forgot to mention, I saw an ad showing that Mariusz Pudzianowski is now scheduled to fight Marcin Najman in his first MMA fight in December. Najman is apparently a boxer. I'm not even sure what fighting promotion this is as it seems to be an Eastern European organization so no watching live on tv, but it should end up on the net eventually. I'm interested to see what happens. He certainly draws some interest, but i don't think it will be long term. I don't see him leaving the juice alone and dedicating himself to MMA enough to make him a legitamite contender in an organization like the UFC.

[Kratos]

I still don't think much of Lesnar. As I've said before, his weight advantage seems to be his main asset. He's a beast, true, but I'm interested to see how the fight with Carwin comes out. Carwin is also huge, so I'm interested to see Lesnar against someone he doesn't have 25 pounds on.

Pudzianowski will be hard-pressed to get completely off the juice. I don't see that happening and him committing to MMA either.

[JBLAZE725]

I still don't think much of Lesnar. As I've said before, his weight advantage seems to be his main asset. He's a beast, true, but I'm interested to see how the fight with Carwin comes out. Carwin is also huge, so I'm interested to see Lesnar against someone he doesn't have 25 pounds on.

Pudzianowski will be hard-pressed to get completely off the juice. I don't see that happening and him committing to MMA either.

I'm not a Lesnar fan, but I will give him some credit. I think his athleticism, especially for someone his size, is amazing. I also think he has extremely good wrestling skills and is a powerful striker. He also didn't have that big of a weight advantage over Mir or Herring. Both of them fought him at about 250. Couture he had a large size advantage over. He still has a lot to learn though and he is so new to the sport that it's hard to tell what will happen with him. The Carwin fight will hopefully provide some answers.

[Kratos]

I'm not a Lesnar fan, but I will give him some credit. I think his athleticism, especially for someone his size, is amazing. I also think he has extremely good wrestling skills and is a powerful striker. He also didn't have that big of a weight advantage over Mir or Herring. Both of them fought him at about 250. Couture he had a large size advantage over. He still has a lot to learn though and he is so new to the sport that it's hard to tell what will happen with him. The Carwin fight will hopefully provide some answers.

True, he is very athletic. 15 lbs over Herring isn't huge, but is signifigant, and I think Mir was at 240 or so. Mir could have done better, but I don't think he takes his conditioning seriously enough. He even said he hates cardio.

I wonder what the difference is between weigh-in day and actual fighting weight for most of those guys.

[JBLAZE725]

True, he is very athletic. 15 lbs over Herring isn't huge, but is signifigant, and I think Mir was at 240 or so. Mir could have done better, but I don't think he takes his conditioning seriously enough. He even said he hates cardio.

I wonder what the difference is between weigh-in day and actual fighting weight for most of those guys.

The second fight Mir was about 250 the first he was like 243. Who of us doesn't hate cardio?:lol:

[The Nid Hog]

True, he is very athletic. 15 lbs over Herring isn't huge, but is signifigant, and I think Mir was at 240 or so. Mir could have done better, but I don't think he takes his conditioning seriously enough. He even said he hates cardio.

I wonder what the difference is between weigh-in day and actual fighting weight for most of those guys.

I bet a man Lesnar's size is at least 20 libs heaver on fight day--maybe more. I've heard that Lesnar weighed about 285 when he stepped into the ring with Mir. That would give him close to a 40 lb weight advantage.

[SRock]

Forgot to mention, I saw an ad showing that Mariusz Pudzianowski is now scheduled to fight Marcin Najman in his first MMA fight in December. Najman is apparently a boxer. I'm not even sure what fighting promotion this is as it seems to be an Eastern European organization so no watching live on tv, but it should end up on the net eventually. I'm interested to see what happens. He certainly draws some interest, but i don't think it will be long term. I don't see him leaving the juice alone and dedicating himself to MMA enough to make him a legitamite contender in an organization like the UFC.

Link?


I still don't think much of Lesnar. As I've said before, his weight advantage seems to be his main asset. He's a beast, true, but I'm interested to see how the fight with Carwin comes out. Carwin is also huge, so I'm interested to see Lesnar against someone he doesn't have 25 pounds on.

Pudzianowski will be hard-pressed to get completely off the juice. I don't see that happening and him committing to MMA either.

Brock is an amazing athlete. Personally I think most people's disdain for him stem from his days as a heel in WWE. I also think his heel like actions early on in the UFC didn't help. Brock's primary asset, hands down, is his wrestling. Sure his monstrous size doesn't hurt, but he moves like he's a full 100lbs lighter than he really is.

I don't see Pudzianowski having much of an MMA career, but I guess we'll find out if the fight happens.


The Carwin fight will hopefully provide some answers.

I think it will. Carwin gives up more size to Brock than most realize. He fights around 255 (10lbs under the max) and walks around only a little heavier. Brock is a full 2" shorter than Shane and struggles to get down to the 265 max which means despite Carwins massive size he is still quite a bit smaller than Brock. I've read that in Brock's UFC debut he topped 300lbs walking into the ring.

Either way I think/hope/want this to be a great fight regardless of who wins.


I wonder what the difference is between weigh-in day and actual fighting weight for most of those guys.

I've read several articles where they say Brock is typically between 290 and 305 by the time he walks into the ring.


The second fight Mir was about 250 the first he was like 243. Who of us doesn't hate cardio?:lol:

Seriously, I'll lift weights and spar all day, but I hate cardio.


I bet a man Lesnar's size is at least 20 libs heaver on fight day--maybe more. I've heard that Lesnar weighed about 285 when he stepped into the ring with Mir. That would give him close to a 40 lb weight advantage.

Probably more from what I've read. Plus if you look at the percentage of water that most can shed to make weight and then add that to Brocks weigh in weight, he's like fighting a VW.

[The Nid Hog]

Brock is an amazing athlete. Personally I think most people's disdain for him stem from his days as a heel in WWE. I also think his heel like actions early on in the UFC didn't help.

I've been trying to think about why I don't like Brock. My first impulse is that my favorite fighters are ones who put their games together around Muay Thai and BJJ. But as soon as I thought that, I had to admit that I'm a huge Team Quest fan. Lindland, Henderson--those guys are great. The truth is that I just don't like him. He's worked his whole life to get that big, he's a tremendous athlete, a great wrestler and has a fantastic work ethic. I respect that. And I simply do not like him. At all. I don't think that any of the current challengers have much chance of beating him, but I would love to see somebody like Big Nog rock his world. Oh well--if past experience is any indication, somebody is going to come along who will beat him like a drum.

[Kratos]

I don't hate cardio! I can respect Brock's athleticism, but like I said, I think his weight advantage makes a lot more difference than most want to admit. As someone who regularly wrestles with much larger people, I will tell you it sucks. Of course, improperly applied, it is as useless as any other misused advantage.

[SRock]

I've been trying to think about why I don't like Brock. My first impulse is that my favorite fighters are ones who put their games together around Muay Thai and BJJ. But as soon as I thought that, I had to admit that I'm a huge Team Quest fan. Lindland, Henderson--those guys are great. The truth is that I just don't like him. He's worked his whole life to get that big, he's a tremendous athlete, a great wrestler and has a fantastic work ethic. I respect that. And I simply do not like him. At all. I don't think that any of the current challengers have much chance of beating him, but I would love to see somebody like Big Nog rock his world. Oh well--if past experience is any indication, somebody is going to come along who will beat him like a drum.

I'll clarify as well. I don't like Brock personally. What I mean is when someone says who do you like or who do you support Brock never comes up. However, I totally respect his work ethic and athleticism.


I don't hate cardio! I can respect Brock's athleticism, but like I said, I think his weight advantage makes a lot more difference than most want to admit. As someone who regularly wrestles with much larger people, I will tell you it sucks. Of course, improperly applied, it is as useless as any other misused advantage.

Exactly!

[JBLAZE725]

I don't hate cardio! I can respect Brock's athleticism, but like I said, I think his weight advantage makes a lot more difference than most want to admit. As someone who regularly wrestles with much larger people, I will tell you it sucks. Of course, improperly applied, it is as useless as any other misused advantage.

I hate cardio. Not really running, but circuits and wrestling/boxing/kickboxing for extended periods to improve endurance. Not fun for me. I'll take fight pain over cardio pain any day. I was also a wrestler and I wrestled at 119 so needless to say pretty much everyone I trained against was bigger than me. Even now in the gym when I spar everyone is bigger than me as I'm only 165 so I'm used to fighting bigger guys and, when they're skilled, it does suck. Many of them don't know squat and assume that because they're big they can fight. They're just as easy to beat as the little guys who can't fight. Brock has a size advantage over pretty much everyone and I'm sure it helps, but it helps because he has skill to go along with his size. I would love to see the UFC break the HW division into HW and Super HW abd break it around 235 to at least keep the size mismatches down.

Did anyone see yesterday's fight night and TUF show? I really liked the Quarry vs. Credeur and Huerta vs. Maynard fights. A lot of heart showed in those fights. The TUF show wasn't as good as I expected and I hope the season gets better. I like Rampage, but I think his picking Kimbo first and choosing the bigger guys was a mistake that will cause him to lose most of the fights. I also heard that at the end of the season Rampage and Rashad won't be fighting due to Rampage being in the A-Team movie as B.A. Baracus. If true, that is sad news. I was really looking forward to their fight.

[Kratos]

I can't believe Huerta didn't tap. That was a crazy twist, but he must be flexible as Hell. The Quarry-Credeur was a great fight, a lot of heart on display. Tim was taking shots like a college freshman and still standing. I was disgusted with TUF fight. Abe did nothing. The other guy did the same thing every time they got to their feet. Abe looked like he was scared shitl***.

[The Nid Hog]

I didn't get a chance to watch it last night, but I DVR'd it. Hopefully I'll get to it tonight or tomorrow night.

[TimmyBoston]

I bet a man Lesnar's size is at least 20 libs heaver on fight day--maybe more. I've heard that Lesnar weighed about 285 when he stepped into the ring with Mir. That would give him close to a 40 lb weight advantage.

Why it wouldn't be 40 pounds, I would bet Thiago Alves weighed quite a few more pounds than GSP in their bout as well and they weighed in the same.

[SRock]

I won't get to see the first episode of TUF for a few more weeks. I also missed the last Fight Night :mad:.


due to Rampage being in the A-Team movie as B.A. Baracus. If true, that is sad news. I was really looking forward to their fight.

Linky Linky (http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/dana-white-rampage-backed-out-of-commitment-19783)

[The Nid Hog]

I won't get to see the first episode of TUF for a few more weeks. I also missed the last Fight Night

For some reason, the timer that I set on my DVR didn't kick in and I didn't record Fight Night. When I checked the DVR last night I was bitterly disappointed. Oh well--I guess that I can find it on line somewhere.

As for TUF, I just can't stand it anymore. I didn't watch last season, and I probably won't watch this one either. Too much Real World action for me.

Anybody ordering UFC 103? I don't think that I'm going to buy the PPV, but I might go down to watch it at my friendly neighborhood sports bar.

[SRock]

For some reason, the timer that I set on my DVR didn't kick in and I didn't record Fight Night. When I checked the DVR last night I was bitterly disappointed. Oh well--I guess that I can find it on line somewhere.

As for TUF, I just can't stand it anymore. I didn't watch last season, and I probably won't watch this one either. Too much Real World action for me.

Anybody ordering UFC 103? I don't think that I'm going to buy the PPV, but I might go down to watch it at my friendly neighborhood sports bar.

That sucks! I don't dig the Real World aspect of TUF at all. Typically when it comes on I watch something else and occasionally check in to see who is fighting and watch the fights only.

I'm going to miss 103. Luckily it will re-air here on Monday so I'll see it then.

[spanx]

What are your thoughts on cutting weight?My thoughts bring me to the conclusion that cutting weight is cheating.I think the guys cutting 20-30lbs to get into a smaller weight class is the same as taking illegal substances to get an edge on their opponent.Fighters should be made to fight at their natural weight and not be allowed to dehydrate them selves in order to fight smaller guys who don't cut weight.I know the rules don't have a issue with this and its probably just me.I say that they should fight on the same day they weigh in.If they want to dehydrate themselves to get in that weight class then they should be made to fight in that state of dehydration.What do you guys think on the subject of cutting weight?

[Confuzius]

I'll probably be ordering it (UFC 103), I usually have a bunch of friends over and make up a big batch of chilli or something, and everyone pitches in a few bucks, it works out well and ends up cheaper than going to a bar.

Although there's not really any fights that I'm super excited to see, granted I'm not quite the super mma fan that some of my friends are... That being said, I'm still stoked to eat chilli and watch people get pummeled.

[The Nid Hog]

What are your thoughts on cutting weight?My thoughts bring me to the conclusion that cutting weight is cheating.I think the guys cutting 20-30lbs to get into a smaller weight class is the same as taking illegal substances to get an edge on their opponent.Fighters should be made to fight at their natural weight and not be allowed to dehydrate them selves in order to fight smaller guys who don't cut weight.I know the rules don't have a issue with this and its probably just me.I say that they should fight on the same day they weigh in.If they want to dehydrate themselves to get in that weight class then they should be made to fight in that state of dehydration.What do you guys think on the subject of cutting weight?

Cutting weight has a long history. Wrestlers have been doing it since forever. Some guys are very good at it and others aren't. Some guys like to walk around close to their fighting weight and others don't. I think that it would be impossible to police a ban on it and forcing fighters to fight dehydrated would be potentially dangerous. It is what it is--I don't think that it's that big of a deal.

[The Nid Hog]

I'll probably be ordering it (UFC 103), I usually have a bunch of friends over and make up a big batch of chilli or something, and everyone pitches in a few bucks, it works out well and ends up cheaper than going to a bar.

Although there's not really any fights that I'm super excited to see, granted I'm not quite the super mma fan that some of my friends are... That being said, I'm still stoked to eat chilli and watch people get pummeled.

Normally I wouldn't go out either, but I have a gift coupon from the bar. I might as well enjoy a free burger with the free MMA.

[FreezerBurns]

Cutting weight has a long history. Wrestlers have been doing it since forever. Some guys are very good at it and others aren't. Some guys like to walk around close to their fighting weight and others don't. I think that it would be impossible to police a ban on it and forcing fighters to fight dehydrated would be potentially dangerous. It is what it is--I don't think that it's that big of a deal.

I bet if weigh-ins were on the same day as the fight, folks would be less tempted to cut huge amounts of weight.

[FreezerBurns]

...I also heard that at the end of the season Rampage and Rashad won't be fighting due to Rampage being in the A-Team movie as B.A. Baracus. If true, that is sad news. I was really looking forward to their fight.

That's lame, they need to fight... They've already commenced the junk talking and we're only one show in to the TUF season.

On the other hand... There's going to be an A-Team movie and Rampage is BA Baracus??!! :w00t: :w00t:

[Mejnoon]

What are your thoughts on cutting weight?My thoughts bring me to the conclusion that cutting weight is cheating.I think the guys cutting 20-30lbs to get into a smaller weight class is the same as taking illegal substances to get an edge on their opponent.Fighters should be made to fight at their natural weight and not be allowed to dehydrate them selves in order to fight smaller guys who don't cut weight.I know the rules don't have a issue with this and its probably just me.I say that they should fight on the same day they weigh in.If they want to dehydrate themselves to get in that weight class then they should be made to fight in that state of dehydration.What do you guys think on the subject of cutting weight?

I think it would be nice if everyone fought at their "natural" or "walking around" weight, but cutting has become a deeply entrenched part of the sport that, in my opinion, reflects a certain level of committment and professionalism.

A fighter that is committed to being the best is going to give himself every advantage within the rules...that means packing on as much muscle as possible with out giving up speed or putting himself in a position where the cut is going to take too big of a toll. A professional athlete (particularly in a sport as physically strenuous as MMA) should have a comprehensive strength/conditioning/nutrition program...the ability to make a large cut and still step in the cage/ring hydrated and able to compete at a high level is indicative, to me, of the kind of professionalism I'd like to see more of in the sport.


I bet if weigh-ins were on the same day as the fight, folks would be less tempted to cut huge amounts of weight.

Ohio has already begun to implement a second, fight day weigh in. The fighter has to weigh in within I think 10 lbs of their weight at the primary weigh in the day before. Unfortunately that rule has been inconsistently enforced in Ohio (the UFC was able to get an exemption, don't know about any other promotions). I wouldn't be against a rule like that as an attempt to prevent dangerous levels of dehydration, but at the same time I don't think its really necessary.

[TimmyBoston]

I think it would be nice if everyone fought at their "natural" or "walking around" weight, but cutting has become a deeply entrenched part of the sport that, in my opinion, reflects a certain level of committment and professionalism.

A fighter that is committed to being the best is going to give himself every advantage within the rules...that means packing on as much muscle as possible with out giving up speed or putting himself in a position where the cut is going to take too big of a toll. A professional athlete (particularly in a sport as physically strenuous as MMA) should have a comprehensive strength/conditioning/nutrition program...the ability to make a large cut and still step in the cage/ring hydrated and able to compete at a high level is indicative, to me, of the kind of professionalism I'd like to see more of in the sport.

.

+1, I'd hate to see weight cutting be removed from fighting. It is a part of the sport and it is available for both fighters.

[FreezerBurns]

+1, I'd hate to see weight cutting be removed from fighting. It is a part of the sport and it is available for both fighters.

I think we must be talking about two different types of weight cutting here. Allow me to provide some examples.

One type is conditioning oneself over several months to get from (for example) football weight to wrestling weight. That is to say one uses conditioning/training/diet to drop pounds to get from "walking around weight" to "fighting weight." To me this is the acceptable method of cutting weight.

The second example is a fighter dropping 20 pounds in one day via sweating out water to make weight and immediately after rehydrating during the time before the fight happens. This method is lethal and should be illegal. I've seen kids crawl naked to the scales using this method. For what? Because it's part of the sport and is available for both fighters? This is why same day weigh-ins should be mandated by law.

[thunderball]

Any comments on yesterday's UFC 103 bouts?

[The Nid Hog]

Crocop is done, but dos Santos shouldn't get too cocky. This is a big win for him, but not as much of a test as if would be if he had fought a competitive Crocop. I wonder what happened to that guy? Sure he's slowed down and it's harder for him to surprise people with brutal head kicks. But he just doesn't have any fire anymore.

Vitor looked good and I'm willing to at least imagine that I can see the effect of training with the Machidas. I'm not a Rich Franklin fan and I'm not sure where he goes from here. It seems like guys like Franklin and Forrest (who I do like) are one prong of the UFC marketing strategy that got a lot of play early on in the new era ("Hey--they're regular white guys, just like us!"), but is falling behind a newer plan ("Bring me giant wrestlers!"). Although it's hard to say what things are going to look like in another week or so, if Vitor gets fast tracked to meet Anderson Silva we might have an interesting, almost Pride-like fight.

I hope that Trigg didn't pay in advance for a year at Extreme Couture. If things are hunky-dory with Zuffa now, maybe we'll see Trigg doing some broadcasts for them? I don't mind Rogan much, but Goldie is insufferable. If WEC gets folded into UFC, I'd like to see them get a couple of interesting broadcast crews going.

Story v. Foster and Lentz v. Oliveira were good fights. They really went all out.

I wouldn't want to be Rob Emerson this morning. That leg is going to be aching. I remember what that feels like on the outside of my thigh--I hate to think what the inside would feel like.

[Kratos]

CroCop lost aGAIN? Jeez, I think he's done. Ever since the Gonzaga fight, he's been out of it. I didn't think Vitor was that light. The first time I saw him was when he beat the lunch money out of Tank Abbot. I was glad to see that. I always thought he was heavier than 185.

What ever happened to Kongo? I haven't heard his name in a while.

[The Nid Hog]

What ever happened to Kongo? I haven't heard his name in a while.

I think that he's going to fight Mir in December.

[TimmyBoston]

Always being a big Rich Franklin fan, I was rooting for him, but if I were a betting man I would have put my money on Belfort and he did exactly what I thought he would.


What do you guys think about the Kampman stoppage? I did look early to many, many people, but Kampman himself didn't really protest much, normally at an early stoppage, the fighter goes balistic, Martin seemed to spend a while composing himself.

[spanx]

[QUOTE=FreezerBurns;1481072]I think we must be talking about two different types of weight cutting here. Allow me to provide some examples.

One type is conditioning oneself over several months to get from (for example) football weight to wrestling weight. That is to say one uses conditioning/training/diet to drop pounds to get from "walking around weight" to "fighting weight." To me this is the acceptable method of cutting weight.

The second example is a fighter dropping 20 pounds in one day via sweating out water to make weight and immediately after rehydrating during the time before the fight happens. This method is lethal and should be illegal. I've seen kids crawl naked to the scales using this method. For what? Because it's part of the sport and is available for both fighters? This is why same day weigh-ins should be mandated by law.[/QU

Your second example is what I was refering too.I don't thunk this is right I think your weight should be the same on fight day as the weigh in.If you wanna fight 155lbs for example then you should weigh 155 during the fight not 160,165,170 etc.

[Mejnoon]

Always being a big Rich Franklin fan, I was rooting for him, but if I were a betting man I would have put my money on Belfort and he did exactly what I thought he would.


What do you guys think about the Kampman stoppage? I did look early to many, many people, but Kampman himself didn't really protest much, normally at an early stoppage, the fighter goes balistic, Martin seemed to spend a while composing himself.

I wasn't entirely convinced that the "Old Vitor" would show up, but he did. I'm starting to think that maybe he'll live up to his enormous potential after all. Whether he ultimately does or not, I think the middleweight division is badly in need of exciting, athletic fighters who's name's aren't Anderson Silva...I for one am very excited to see Vitor come back with a bang.

As far as Kampmann/Daley...I think it was a fair stoppage. My pro debut was stopped by Herb Dean while I was on my feet, but against the cage and rocked...at the time I was a kinda mad about it, I'll admit. Looking back on it, he made the right call...I was hurt, taking unanswered punches, and not looking like I was going to get back in it anytime soon. As much as I'd like to say I would have recovered and won the fight (I was, without question, up on the scorecards at the time I got caught), I probably wouldn't have. Thats a hard thing for a fighter to admit sometimes...thats why the ref has to trust his gut and make the call.

[SRock]

What are your thoughts on cutting weight?

This is something that both wrestlers and boxer (kick boxers etc.) have done for years. It clearly can give a larger man an advantage if he can shed some weight and fight as the larger man in a smaller class. GSP for example could easily fight at 185 but he does it at 170 and is monstrous compared to most. I think historically it is a part of all combat sports. I don't see it going anywhere.


I bet if weigh-ins were on the same day as the fight, folks would be less tempted to cut huge amounts of weight.

I'm sure they would. I can tell you as someone who has done this numerous times it takes a great deal out of you. Many professionals go straight from weigh-ins to the medic for rehydration via an IV.


That's lame, they need to fight... They've already commenced the junk talking and we're only one show in to the TUF season.

On the other hand... There's going to be an A-Team movie and Rampage is BA Baracus??!! :w00t: :w00t:

+1, +1 If they screw up the A-team I'll be pissed! Hopefully Rampage and Rashad will eventually get back to it!


+1, I'd hate to see weight cutting be removed from fighting. It is a part of the sport and it is available for both fighters.

+1


Crocop is done, but dos Santos shouldn't get too cocky. This is a big win for him, but not as much of a test as if would be if he had fought a competitive Crocop. I wonder what happened to that guy? Sure he's slowed down and it's harder for him to surprise people with brutal head kicks. But he just doesn't have any fire anymore. I always found Crocop to be a kind of creepy guy--I imagined him engaging in late-night interrogation sessions and burning villages before he'd jump on a plane to Japan for a Pride tournament. Now what's he doing? Interior decorating in Zagreb?

It really hurts to see Mirko struggle so. He is a legend. He sure is missing a step. He doesn't through nearly the number of kicks he did in the past. Sure this looks good for dos Santos, but it is deceptive. He didn't find Cro-Cop, he fought some slower, less aggressive, more manageable version of Cro-Cop.


Vitor looked good and I'm willing to at least imagine that I can see the effect of training with the Machidas. I'm not a Rich Franklin fan and I'm not sure where he goes from here. It seems like guys like Franklin and Forrest (who I do like) are one prong of the UFC marketing strategy that got a lot of play early on in the new era ("Hey--they're regular white guys, just like us!"), but is falling behind a newer plan ("Bring me giant wrestlers!"). Although it's hard to say what things are going to look like in another week or so, if Vitor gets fast tracked to meet Anderson Silva we might have an interesting, almost Pride-like fight.

Vitor looked good but I'm still not convinced that he is the old Belfort. In fact I've re-watched that fight a few times now and while he clearly rocked Rich while they were standing I think it was the clear blow to the base of the skull that put Rich out, albeit briefly. I like Rich, but he is clearly in a predicament. He needs to be fighting at 185 where he is a big 185 and not at heavier weights. The only problem is he can't get past Silva. Vitor on the other hand, if he still truly and honestly has the accuracy and the speed (which we really didn't see against Franklin) may be the one to topple Silva and hold down that division for a while.


I hope that Trigg didn't pay in advance for a year at Extreme Couture. If things are hunky-dory with Zuffa now, maybe we'll see Trigg doing some broadcasts for them? I don't mind Rogan much, but Goldie is insufferable. If WEC gets folded into UFC, I'd like to see them get a couple of interesting broadcast crews going.

I think Extreme Couture may ultimately be a good thing for Trigg. I've never really like the guy but he is a better than average grappler.


Story v. Foster and Lentz v. Oliveira were good fights. They really went all out.

+1


I wouldn't want to be Rob Emerson this morning. That leg is going to be aching. I remember what that feels like on the outside of my thigh--I hate to think what the inside would feel like.

Oh man, I can sympathize with this one first hand. One of my last fights was against a Muay Thai guy and it didn't seem like I could keep my lead leg away from him. I ultimately won the fight by what I consider the ugliest/most awkward left cross I've ever thrown but I paid for that win for over a week. The next day I'm sure he felt like the winner. I couldn't hardly walk.


CroCop lost aGAIN? Jeez, I think he's done. Ever since the Gonzaga fight, he's been out of it. I didn't think Vitor was that light. The first time I saw him was when he beat the lunch money out of Tank Abbot. I was glad to see that. I always thought he was heavier than 185.

What ever happened to Kongo? I haven't heard his name in a while.

Vitor has fought at 205 and has even weighed in heavier than that. However, I think 185 is perfect for him. He'd almost always be the bigger/faster fighter.


Always being a big Rich Franklin fan, I was rooting for him, but if I were a betting man I would have put my money on Belfort and he did exactly what I thought he would.

I expected Belfort to win, but I honestly thought Rich would hold his own longer.



What do you guys think about the Kampman stoppage? I did look early to many, many people, but Kampman himself didn't really protest much, normally at an early stoppage, the fighter goes balistic, Martin seemed to spend a while composing himself.

I think a split second earlier and it would have been a bad stoppage but a split second later it may have looked like the ref wasn't looking out for the fighters well being. Kampan was upset but he clearly had to gather his thoughts before what little questioning/protest their was. In reality that might have been as close to a perfectly timed stoppage as there has ever been.


I wasn't entirely convinced that the "Old Vitor" would show up, but he did. I'm starting to think that maybe he'll live up to his enormous potential after all. Whether he ultimately does or not, I think the middleweight division is badly in need of exciting, athletic fighters who's name's aren't Anderson Silva...I for one am very excited to see Vitor come back with a bang.

I'm still not convinced that we saw he old Vitor (a la the vs. Wanderlei fight) but he did look good.


As far as Kampmann/Daley...I think it was a fair stoppage. My pro debut was stopped by Herb Dean while I was on my feet, but against the cage and rocked...at the time I was a kinda mad about it, I'll admit. Looking back on it, he made the right call...I was hurt, taking unanswered punches, and not looking like I was going to get back in it anytime soon. As much as I'd like to say I would have recovered and won the fight (I was, without question, up on the scorecards at the time I got caught), I probably wouldn't have. Thats a hard thing for a fighter to admit sometimes...thats why the ref has to trust his gut and make the call.

+1

[thunderball]

I so want the Pride version of Mirko back...but it just isn't going to happen is it guys. :frown:

[SRock]

I so want the Pride version of Mirko back...but it just isn't going to happen is it guys. :frown:

Sadly I think not. I fear his last couple of fights may be as a gatekeeper, nothing more than a test for up and coming talent.

[thunderball]

Sokoudjou vs. Bob Sapp on October 6th. Good to see Japan is getting back on the freak match track! :rolleyes: Some of the other matches on the card should be good though.

http://www.dreamofficial.com/

[SRock]

Sokoudjou vs. Bob Sapp on October 6th. Good to see Japan is getting back on the freak match track! :rolleyes: Some of the other matches on the card should be good though.

http://www.dreamofficial.com/

The Japanese do enjoy a good freak show. Sokoudjou isn't big enough to be fighting Sapp.

[The Nid Hog]

Jeez, poor Sokoudjou. Bob Sapp has long ago embraced his status as Resident Freak, but I feel sorry for Sokoudjou falling down the same hole. The last time I saw Sokoudjou on a Japanese promotion was, I think, one of the Dream events broadcast on HD-NET. I guess that Bas and his guys were doing the English commentary over the Japanese stuff, but the pre-fight video about Sokoudjou stopped me dead. There was a shot of him up in a tree in Africa while the Japanese announcer was talking (in Japanese) about how tough he was. He concluded by saying that Sokoudjou is probably crazy about bananas too. More than cringeworthy.

[JBLAZE725]

I think we must be talking about two different types of weight cutting here. Allow me to provide some examples.

One type is conditioning oneself over several months to get from (for example) football weight to wrestling weight. That is to say one uses conditioning/training/diet to drop pounds to get from "walking around weight" to "fighting weight." To me this is the acceptable method of cutting weight.

The second example is a fighter dropping 20 pounds in one day via sweating out water to make weight and immediately after rehydrating during the time before the fight happens. This method is lethal and should be illegal. I've seen kids crawl naked to the scales using this method. For what? Because it's part of the sport and is available for both fighters? This is why same day weigh-ins should be mandated by law.

I think weight-cutting is part of the sport and another discipline these guys need to master. For those that do it well, it has really no effect on them, for those that don't do it well, they don't always make weight and are typically spent before the first round is done. I can agree to a fight-day weigh-in of 15 lbs heavier or so just to keep the cuts reasonable. As far as kids go, I wrestled in high school and was forced to wrestle 2 weight classes down so that I wouldn't unseat either of the 2 seniors at those weights. The reult was I had to lose good chunks of weight before every fight and felt like absolute crap during every fight. I had no energy, I couldn't eat and I was weak during the matches. I've even seen numerous wrestlers throwing up to make weight. I can't even count how many times I had to have people towel me down naked before I stepped on the scale to weigh-in. For adults I think these weight cuts are ok, but having gone through it I think it's too much for kids to go through.

[Obsessed]

Okey-dokey . . .

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/mma/09/21/herschel.walker.ap/index.html

[TimmyBoston]

Okey-dokey . . .

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/mma/09/21/herschel.walker.ap/index.html

Wow.

[JBLAZE725]

Did anyone else hear Bob Arum's ignorant and racist remarks about MMA and its fans? I understand his feeling threatened by the sport, but he took it to an unnecessary level with his comments. I will look for a link as soon as I can.

[The Nid Hog]

Wow.

That one took me by surprise.

[The Nid Hog]

Did anyone else hear Bob Arum's ignorant and racist remarks about MMA and its fans? I understand his feeling threatened by the sport, but he took it to an unnecessary level with his comments. I will look for a link as soon as I can.

Yeah, that was pretty dismal. Bas Rutten had a pretty funny editorial about it on Inside MMA.

[BROWNS]

Apologies if this was already posted:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_ylt=AicJPnfobI3U6nTAVGmYGdQ9Eo14?slug=mmajun kie-UFC_103_medical_suspensions&prov=mmajunkie&type=lgns

PS. This was my 100th post, how neat :lol:

[thunderball]

Alright, a little quiz of easy to moderate difficulty for all you MMA fans out there (nobody too obscure). Be honest and don't go name-searching on the 'net...just see how many you can do from memory. I've tried to get a cross-section of talent and threw a few old schoolers in there too. I'm seeing 18 or 19/20 for some of you hardcores on here. :biggrin:

PM me your name list and I'll post the winner in a day or two. Good luck boys! :001_smile

1.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/083.jpg

2.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/3048_Fight_Science2_MMA-2_05320299.jpg

3.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/494656_7.jpg

4.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/584118132_a9794346c1.jpg

5.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/ARG.jpg

6.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/crushit.jpg

7.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/cut.jpg

8.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/fedorsbuddy.jpg

9.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/hammer.jpg

10.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/im00019049.jpg

11.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/kimchee.jpg

12.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/m2.jpg

13.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/nono.jpg

14.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/origin.jpg

15.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/ouch.jpg

16.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/sapa.jpg

17.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/saxet.jpg

18.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/swede.jpg

19.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/tappit.jpg

20.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/nuskool73/tattoo.jpg

[SRock]

Rather than participating in this one I will tell you that I knew 16 of them right off the bat. Two I was able to confirm with Google and/or Sherdog and two I don't have a clue on.


Okey-dokey . . .

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/mma/09/21/herschel.walker.ap/index.html

Wow, he's too old to start that career now. Don't get me wrong if the match him up right he'll likely win one or two, but he's not the next Randy Couture at all.


Did anyone else hear Bob Arum's ignorant and racist remarks about MMA and its fans? I understand his feeling threatened by the sport, but he took it to an unnecessary level with his comments. I will look for a link as soon as I can.


Yeah, that was pretty dismal. Bas Rutten had a pretty funny editorial about it on Inside MMA.

+1


Apologies if this was already posted:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_ylt=AicJPnfobI3U6nTAVGmYGdQ9Eo14?slug=mmajun kie-UFC_103_medical_suspensions&prov=mmajunkie&type=lgns

PS. This was my 100th post, how neat :lol:

Congrats on your 100th post. Medical suspensions (even everyone getting suspended) isn't that uncommon. I't just to ensure that none of the fighters turn around and fight too soon.

[The Nid Hog]

Ok--I just checked through it and I too think that I can ID 16 right off the top. One of the remaining ones has me completely stumped and another one looks vaguely familiar. I'll run through them again when I get home tonight.

[thunderball]

Some good efforts out there guys! The winner this time round is mejnoon with The Nid Hog but a point behind. Well done gents! :biggrin:

1. Brian Bowles
2. Bas Rutten
3. Mac Danzig
4. Murilo 'Ninja' Rua
5. Lil' Nog
6. Chieck Kongo
7. Ronaldo 'Jacare' Souza
8. Igor Vovachanchyn (sp?)
9. Joachim 'Hellboy' Hansen
10. Takanori Gomi
11. Denis Kang
12. Guy Mezger
13. Kazuo Misaki
14. Masakatsu Funaki (Pancrase co-founder I think)
15. Kim Couture
16. Mark Hunt
17. Heath Herring
18. Tony Fryklund
19. Pat Miletich
20. Alexsander Emelianenko

[FreezerBurns]

Good quiz, good quiz... I guess I'm not as big of an MMA fan as I thought I was!

[TimmyBoston]

Good quiz, good quiz... I guess I'm not as big of an MMA fan as I thought I was!

Me too. My results on that were abysmal. Thanks for the education, Dave.

[Mejnoon]

I wanted to give you guys a heads up on an up and comer I saw tonight. His name is Felipe Fogolin...trains BJJ under Cleber Luciano (black belt, and I was told he earned it VERY quickly) and muay thai under Rafael Cordeiro/Chutebox.

I train at a Cleber affiliate school...Cleber and Felipe are both fighting at a nearby reservation show on Thursday night. They were in the gym training tonight along with Cyborg Santos, Doug Marshall (he's the MT instructor at our school) and a couple of local fighters. I got to watch Felipe do some light sparring with Cyborg...dude is LEGIT. Apparently Cordeiro has been comparing him to Shogun, and he's been training MT for less than 2 years.

Remember the name...:wink:

[TimmyBoston]

Chris, you've alluded to doing some fighting yourself, do you mind sharing some background?

[TimmyBoston]

Anyone catch Chuck Liddell on Dancing with the Stars? I dug up the youtube clip and it's pretty entertaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBTVL0cbP5A

[Mejnoon]

Chris, you've alluded to doing some fighting yourself, do you mind sharing some background?

I wrestled a little when I was young, and I've trained submission grappling and muay thai off and on for the last ~5 years. I've won a couple smoker fights and some no gi grappling matches. I'm 0-1 as a pro...about 3.5 years ago I got the opportunity to take a fight after a guy got injured ~5 weeks out...I knew the opponent and thought I could beat him, so I went for it...it didn't work out exactly like I thought it would.

I haven't competed much since for a couple of reasons, but I would like to fight again early next year. For the first time in a while I'm free of injuries and have a training situation that works with my day job. I've made it known to a couple of match makers that I'm looking to fight around that time...hopefully something comes through.

[The Nid Hog]

I wrestled a little when I was young, and I've trained submission grappling and muay thai off and on for the last ~5 years. I've won a couple smoker fights and some no gi grappling matches. I'm 0-1 as a pro...about 3.5 years ago I got the opportunity to take a fight after a guy got injured ~5 weeks out...I knew the opponent and thought I could beat him, so I went for it...it didn't work out exactly like I thought it would.

I haven't competed much since for a couple of reasons, but I would like to fight again early next year. For the first time in a while I'm free of injuries and have a training situation that works with my day job. I've made it known to a couple of match makers that I'm looking to fight around that time...hopefully something comes through.

That's fantastic! When I'm watching highlights on Inside MMA, I'll be looking for the guy with the B&B Badger logo on his board shorts. Let us know when you get something scheduled.

[mike72]

who's watching the ultimate fighter? kimbo might make it.

[mike72]

Anyone catch Chuck Liddell on Dancing with the Stars? I dug up the youtube clip and it's pretty entertaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBTVL0cbP5A

GO chuck!!

[FreezerBurns]

who's watching the ultimate fighter? kimbo might make it.

Ah, come on man, I hope this isn't a spoiler, the show is not even on for another 2.5 hours here.

[TimmyBoston]

who's watching the ultimate fighter? kimbo might make it.

I've only seen the first episode, but I can't imagine Kimbo ever being successful in the UFC. He's a brawler, plain and simple. He obviously has power, but I feel the top heavyweights in the UFC will destroy him.

[thunderball]

I've only seen the first episode, but I can't imagine Kimbo ever being successful in the UFC. He's a brawler, plain and simple. He obviously has power, but I feel the top heavyweights in the UFC will destroy him.

Yeah it'll be interesting to see where he ends up but as it stands, yeah, I think any top heavyweight would pound him to dust (well, submit him probably).

[SRock]

That's fantastic! When I'm watching highlights on Inside MMA, I'll be looking for the guy with the B&B Badger logo on his board shorts. Let us know when you get something scheduled.

+1 I never had any desire to do it professionally as I know I couldn't keep it up for long and 33 was old to start. Let us know what's up!


who's watching the ultimate fighter? kimbo might make it.

Kimbo is already in the UFC. Like him or not, he is a draw and he will sell PPV's. Regardless of the outcome of TUF I think you will see him fight in the UFC. This on Brock Lesnar, he skyrocketed in the UFC because of his previous fame and then secured his spot via talent. No whether or not Kimbo will last very long or will be a couple PPV trick pony is a whole other discussion.


I've only seen the first episode, but I can't imagine Kimbo ever being successful in the UFC. He's a brawler, plain and simple. He obviously has power, but I feel the top heavyweights in the UFC will destroy him.

Exactly. As such he always has a chance but technique and experience will beat him more often than he will beat it. I still think given time and training he could be a good mixed martial artist. However, does anyone actually see Kimbo beating Brock, Nog, Carwin, hell even Cro Cop?


Yeah it'll be interesting to see where he ends up but as it stands, yeah, I think any top heavyweight would pound him to dust (well, submit him probably).

Or both. I think guys like Carwin and Lesnar would just beat him into submission while guys like Nog would likely submit him probably with relative ease.

[The Nid Hog]

Yeah it'll be interesting to see where he ends up but as it stands, yeah, I think any top heavyweight would pound him to dust (well, submit him probably).

I remember sitting in the bleachers at a soccer game with my kids the morning after Kimbo's TV premier. Surrounded by typical yuppie families, everybody was talking about Kimbo's fight. I'm sure that they didn't have a clue about fighting, but they were all about Kimbo. I bring that up because the guys that run Zuffa are no fools. As long as there's some kind of public interest, Kimbo will get fights. So--I guess that the ratings from TUF will have a lot to do with what happens to him. If he gets his $@&% knocked stiff next week and viewer interest wanes, he'll be out (does Bodog still exist?). If he wins, well--that's what TUF is all about, isn't it. The worst scenario is that he gets his clock cleaned but people keep tuning in. Then we'll probably see some Kimbo outings aginst UFC bottom feeders and tomato cans until he finally sinks away to a regional fight circuit somewhere.

[JBLAZE725]

I remember sitting in the bleachers at a soccer game with my kids the morning after Kimbo's TV premier. Surrounded by typical yuppie families, everybody was talking about Kimbo's fight. I'm sure that they didn't have a clue about fighting, but they were all about Kimbo. I bring that up because the guys that run Zuffa are no fools. As long as there's some kind of public interest, Kimbo will get fights. So--I guess that the ratings from TUF will have a lot to do with what happens to him. If he gets his $@&% knocked stiff next week and viewer interest wanes, he'll be out (does Bodog still exist?). If he wins, well--that's what TUF is all about, isn't it. The worst scenario is that he gets his clock cleaned but people keep tuning in. Then we'll probably see some Kimbo outings aginst UFC bottom feeders and tomato cans until he finally sinks away to a regional fight circuit somewhere.

Very true. I remember watching one of his EliteXC fights at a friend's house who knew nothing about MMA and as soon as he saw Kimbo he was convinced he would win, which he did, but also that he was the best out there, nobody would be able to beat him, blah, blah, blah... It was my first time seeing him fight, but thought that he may have some skills since Bas Rutten was training him. I was completely unimpressed by his fight and feel he is a bottom level guy whose best feature is his standup at which he still is not very good. Most real MMA fans seem to feel this way or similarly about him. Now casual fans or people who just happen to be tuning in without knowing the sport will see him and have much the same reaction my friend did especially considering all the hype surrounding him which even non-MMA fans have heard ad nauseum. Dana White and the guys know he isn't the greatest out there or even close, but he will put money in their pockets. That is why even after all the crap Dana said about him in the past, he's a part of the UFC now.

[FreezerBurns]

Very true. I remember watching one of his EliteXC fights at a friend's house who knew nothing about MMA and as soon as he saw Kimbo he was convinced he would win, which he did, but also that he was the best out there, nobody would be able to beat him, blah, blah, blah... It was my first time seeing him fight, but thought that he may have some skills since Bas Rutten was training him. I was completely unimpressed by his fight and feel he is a bottom level guy whose best feature is his standup at which he still is not very good. Most real MMA fans seem to feel this way or similarly about him. Now casual fans or people who just happen to be tuning in without knowing the sport will see him and have much the same reaction my friend did especially considering all the hype surrounding him which even non-MMA fans have heard ad nauseum. Dana White and the guys know he isn't the greatest out there or even close, but he will put money in their pockets. That is why even after all the crap Dana said about him in the past, he's a part of the UFC now.

I had a pestering feeling that TUF was using Kimbo for what he is: A marketing tool. Though Kimbo is most deffinitely a massive tool, the flaw in my theory is this: He's fighting next week on TUF. My initial hypothesis was that the show would save Kimbo for one of the last fights, allowing ample training time with a world class coach. Anyhoo, we'll see what happens!

[SRock]

bring that up because the guys that run Zuffa are no fools. As long as there's some kind of public interest, Kimbo will get fights. So--I guess that the ratings from TUF will have a lot to do with what happens to him. Then we'll probably see some Kimbo outings aginst UFC bottom feeders and tomato cans until he finally sinks away to a regional fight circuit somewhere.

This was my point as well. I think win or lose on TUF you will see Kimbo fight in the UFC. He is a big draw to the YouTube crowd and people who really don't understand the fight game.


Dana White and the guys know he isn't the greatest out there or even close, but he will put money in their pockets. That is why even after all the crap Dana said about him in the past, he's a part of the UFC now.

Yup, but I gotta give it to Dana he did say a long time ago that they only way he'd allow Kimbo in the UFC is if he came on TUF. He stuck by his word.

[JBLAZE725]

This was my point as well. I think win or lose on TUF you will see Kimbo fight in the UFC. He is a big draw to the YouTube crowd and people who really don't understand the fight game.



Yup, but I gotta give it to Dana he did say a long time ago that they only way he'd allow Kimbo in the UFC is if he came on TUF. He stuck by his word.

Or he may have had this planned a long time ago. The guy knows how to make money.

[JBLAZE725]

Rampage has apparently retired. After his little argument with Dana about the Movie/Evans fight, Rampage has decided to call it quits stating that he can't fight forever and he needs to find other long term means to take care of him and his family. I definitely see him fighting again, but this is still sad news. I was a big fan and really enjoyed watching him fight. I also would have loved to see him take on both Evans and Machida.

[TimmyBoston]

Rampage has apparently retired. After his little argument with Dana about the Movie/Evans fight, Rampage has decided to call it quits stating that he can't fight forever and he needs to find other long term means to take care of him and his family. I definitely see him fighting again, but this is still sad news. I was a big fan and really enjoyed watching him fight. I also would have loved to see him take on both Evans and Machida.

It's definitely a loss for the Light Heavy Division. I enjoyed watching him fight, too.

[The Nid Hog]

It's definitely a loss for the Light Heavy Division. I enjoyed watching him fight, too.

He'll be back. Even Mr. T couldn't make a living out of being Mr. T.

[FreezerBurns]

He'll be back. Even Mr. T couldn't make a living out of being Mr. T.

I agree, he'll be back... And in the meantime, we get an A-Team movie. I'm going with Win-Win situation here.

[SRock]

He'll be back. Even Mr. T couldn't make a living out of being Mr. T.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Actually both Rampage and Dana have made statements about him fighting next spring.

[JBLAZE725]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Actually both Rampage and Dana have made statements about him fighting next spring.

I definitely hope to see him back. I think he's one of the funniest most down to Earth fighters I've seen from TUF shows. He's hilarious and has no problems making fun of himself or having other people do it for him. I also liked a comment he made one time saying something like, "I'm not the smartest person in the world, but when I get in the ring, I'm a genius!" I thought it was funny and also true. I think his fighting skills are very underrated. People give him credit for having power, but forget things like him being able to hold his own wrestling with Dan Henderson. Even Hendo mentioned afterwards that he didn't expect his wrestling to be so good. Also he has only been submitted once and it was early in his career back in 2001 against Sakuraba who is not a slouch by any means. This is considering he has gone against some very reputable jiu-jitsu practitioners. If he does feel the need to retire and stay gone I hope he fights Evans and Machida first.

[BROWNS]

I can't believe there's no The Ultimate Fighter/ Kimbo - Nelson talk right now!!!

[Groundhog]

I don't really follow MMA and know virtually nothing about it, but I thought this was an interesting story.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/herschel-challenges-ufc-president-151101.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm

I know Herschel's entry into the sport was mentioned in this thread last week, but I'd be curious to know what some of you guys who know the fight game think about this situation and Herschel's chance for (or lack thereof) for success.

[FreezerBurns]

I don't really follow MMA and know virtually nothing about it, but I thought this was an interesting story.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/herschel-challenges-ufc-president-151101.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm

I know Herschel's entry into the sport was mentioned in this thread last week, but I'd be curious to know what some of you guys who know the fight game think about this situation and Herschel's chance for (or lack thereof) for success.

Herschel vs. Dana? I wish. Dana loves, and I mean LOVES money. Money is his guide. But there is no way in H to the ell Dana would ever step into any ring for any amount of money... ESPECIALLY if it was for charity. However, if he did (which he won't) I think the 50 year old codger, Herschel would embarrass Dana.

As far as Herschel fighting Pros? Bad idea.

[weirdohappy]

It's like having the moon sit on you. How you gonna get the moon off of you?

[weirdohappy]

At the end of the first round I thought at first, "hey, why didn't Herb stop it?" then I thought, does a fight get stopped if you are beating the hell out of your OWN stomach??

[SRock]

If he does feel the need to retire and stay gone I hope he fights Evans and Machida first.

I'm sure he will. The A-team will probably flop and with it his hopes of movie stardom. He'll fight again.


I don't really follow MMA and know virtually nothing about it, but I thought this was an interesting story.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/herschel-challenges-ufc-president-151101.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm

I know Herschel's entry into the sport was mentioned in this thread last week, but I'd be curious to know what some of you guys who know the fight game think about this situation and Herschel's chance for (or lack thereof) for success.

Herschel might have a chance against Dana but younger legitimate pros? Bad idea. Look what happened when Jose Canseco tried his hand at MMA. Steroids and muscles just aren't enough.


Herschel vs. Dana? I wish. Dana loves, and I mean LOVES money. Money is his guide. But there is no way in H to the ell Dana would ever step into any ring for any amount of money... ESPECIALLY if it was for charity. However, if he did (which he won't) I think the 50 year old codger, Herschel would embarrass Dana.

As far as Herschel fighting Pros? Bad idea.

+1

I won't see the Kimbo fight until next week. We are one week behind here.

[masonjarjar]

I can't believe there's no The Ultimate Fighter/ Kimbo - Nelson talk right now!!!

nobody was giving Nelson much credit at all.. esp. Dana.. :lol:

[TimmyBoston]

My thoughts on Kimbo/Nelson

I wasn't especially impressed with Nelson, he couldn't bang with Kimbo, not that I thought he would, but once he got the take down Kimbo had no idea how to get out of the crucifix. It appeared from next week's spoilers that despite his loss, Kimbo will be fighting again.

[The Nid Hog]

I don't think that I'm spoiling anything to say that the Kimbo-Nelson fight was a big waste of time. I watched it on mmatko.com this morning and I'll never get that 11 minutes back. The only thing I came away with was an increased appreciation for the variety of forms that the human body can take. Seeing those two guys in the ring together was like a trip down memory lane to the early freakshow days of open MMA events. "Hey look--it's bouncer versus biker night down at the Iron Horse!" Maybe Dana will sign Butterbean and Tank so that he can add their upcoming fight to the card at UFC 104.

[SRock]

My thoughts on Kimbo/Nelson

I wasn't especially impressed with Nelson, he couldn't bang with Kimbo, not that I thought he would, but once he got the take down Kimbo had no idea how to get out of the crucifix. It appeared from next week's spoilers that despite his loss, Kimbo will be fighting again.


I don't think that I'm spoiling anything to say that the Kimbo-Nelson fight was a big waste of time. I watched it on mmatko.com this morning and I'll never get that 11 minutes back. The only thing I came away with was an increased appreciation for the variety of forms that the human body can take. Seeing those two guys in the ring together was like a trip down memory lane to the early freakshow days of open MMA events. Maybe Dana will sign Butterbean and Tank so that he can add their upcoming fight to the card at UFC 104.

Both of your comments sound pretty much like what I'd expect from this match up. I'm loading the vid now. I have to watch as a fan. I'll check back after watching the fight.

[SRock]

Well, I saw precisely what I expected knowing what I do about these two. Kimbo is a street fighter and he fights like a street fighter. He has zero wrestling/grappling skills. And until (at the very least) he learns a solid sprawl he will continually get owned by wrestlers/grappler's. Roy Nelson while a former IFL champion is no top tier fighter nor striker. He was outmatched in the stand up against Kimbo but dominated him on the ground. I don't see Nelson winning TUF and I do see Kimbo in the UFC regardless of the outcome of this show.

[The Nid Hog]

Well, I saw precisely what I expected knowing what I do about these two. Kimbo is a street fighter and he fights like a street fighter. He has zero wrestling/grappling skills. And until (at the very least) he learns a solid sprawl he will continually get owned by wrestlers/grappler's. Roy Nelson while a former IFL champion is no top tier fighter nor striker. He was outmatched in the stand up against Kimbo but dominated him on the ground. I don't see Nelson winning TUF and I do see Kimbo in the UFC regardless of the outcome of this show.

It's kind of funny to see the attention that Kimbo continues to get. Just reading the news on line this morning brought me to all kinds of headlines about his fight--as if everybody is surprised about how it turned out.

I'd be disappointed in Nelson's performance if I had cared about him at all in the first place. As a Renzo black belt, I'd expect him to be able to take the fight to the ground and he got good positions but he didn't do that much with it. For such a huge guy, he doesn't seem to have much upper body strength--even with Kimbo's right arm out of action, he couldn't get anything on the left. And he keeps his lead hand low, working those little kittykat hooking jabs. A competent heavyweight is going to blast his head off his shoulders.

I think that the learning curve is too steep for either of those guys to become anything other than what they are. They do what they do, and they'll be the same once TUF is over. For my money, despite all the recent noise, I think that heavyweight is the UFC's least interesting weight division.

[SRock]

OK Fellas, who caught UFC 104? Thoughts?

[Barcochris]

Cain domintaed no doubt.... The Machida fight I thought went the wrong way.... but Shogun did not domintae and to be the champ you have to beat the champ and I dont think he did enough to win the belt in a decission

[thunderball]

I haven't seen this but will try to get on it tonight! I love Shogun (and Machida) so I can't wait to see that one. Popular opinion around the 'net seems to be that Shogun should have gotten the nod but I'll have to see for myself.

[TimmyBoston]

This is the first ppv that I've missed in a while, I read about it on Sherdog. The Valesquez win didn't surprise me at all, I didn't expect Rothwell to make that much of a splash in the UFC.

[SRock]

Cain domintaed no doubt.... The Machida fight I thought went the wrong way.... but Shogun did not domintae and to be the champ you have to beat the champ and I dont think he did enough to win the belt in a decission

This is the first sensible thing I've read on MMA in a while. I've told many, many people that while personally I felt that Shogun squeaked out a win he just didn't do enough to topple the champ so I can understand why the judges scored it the way they did.

Guys like Big Country and Ben Rothwell are going to have to learn that the Heavyweights in the UFC are beasts not fat guys. If they are going to hang they need to drop the flab and work up their endurance/cardio.

[Sullybob]

This is the first sensible thing I've read on MMA in a while. I've told many, many people that while personally I felt that Shogun squeaked out a win he just didn't do enough to topple the champ so I can understand why the judges scored it the way they did.

Guys like Big Country and Ben Rothwell are going to have to learn that the Heavyweights in the UFC are beasts not fat guys. If they are going to hang they need to drop the flab and work up their endurance/cardio.

It didn't look like Rothwell was even in the fight and he outweighed Cain by 33 lbs (I think). I think that the stoppage was questionable because it looked to me like Ben was getting up, but if it didn't get stopped then, it probably would have gotten stopped in the next minute or two.

The Rua Machida fight was close. I don't understand what you mean when you say that Shogun squeaked out a win but he didn't do enough to be the champ? If you win the fight shouldn't you win the fight? I thought that the first three rounds were close enough to possibly be a draw and can understand the judges giving those rounds to Machida.

Some of the other fights were pretty good. Chael Sonnen looked great. I didn't expect him to dominate like he did.

Joe Stevenson looked pretty good too. Training with Greg Jackson is helping him.

[SRock]

It didn't look like Rothwell was even in the fight and he outweighed Cain by 33 lbs (I think). I think that the stoppage was questionable because it looked to me like Ben was getting up, but if it didn't get stopped then, it probably would have gotten stopped in the next minute or two.

The Rua Machida fight was close. I don't understand what you mean when you say that Shogun squeaked out a win but he didn't do enough to be the champ? If you win the fight shouldn't you win the fight? I thought that the first three rounds were close enough to possibly be a draw and can understand the judges giving those rounds to Machida.

Some of the other fights were pretty good. Chael Sonnen looked great. I didn't expect him to dominate like he did.

Joe Stevenson looked pretty good too. Training with Greg Jackson is helping him.

What I mean is I gave two rounds definitively to each fighter. The remaining round was so so close, but I think I would have given it to Shogun. In my mind he squeaked out a win. However, the judges obviously didn't see it that way and I think it is because it wasn't a dominant performance. The Dragon was never in any real trouble, never KO'd, wobbled or in danger of being KO'd or submitted. I think to topple a champ you should have to dominate them. It's ok (IMO) to win a title on a decision but it should be an obvious domination.

[Sullybob]

What I mean is I gave two rounds definitively to each fighter. The remaining round was so so close, but I think I would have given it to Shogun. In my mind he squeaked out a win. However, the judges obviously didn't see it that way and I think it is because it wasn't a dominant performance. The Dragon was never in any real trouble, never KO'd, wobbled or in danger of being KO'd or submitted. I think to topple a champ you should have to dominate them. It's ok (IMO) to win a title on a decision but it should be an obvious domination.

That makes sense, thanks.

[SRock]

That makes sense, thanks.

Anytime broham

[thunderball]

Anybody see Sakuraba take a pounding only to pull out a submission seconds before his impending death? I love Sak but I just don't like watching him get pounded like that....glad he won though! :biggrin:

[ouch]

What I mean is I gave two rounds definitively to each fighter. The remaining round was so so close, but I think I would have given it to Shogun. In my mind he squeaked out a win. However, the judges obviously didn't see it that way and I think it is because it wasn't a dominant performance. The Dragon was never in any real trouble, never KO'd, wobbled or in danger of being KO'd or submitted. I think to topple a champ you should have to dominate them. It's ok (IMO) to win a title on a decision but it should be an obvious domination.

I don't know what the feelings are in MMA, but historically that's the way it's been in boxing.

How many decisions did Ali get simply because he was Ali? Without a second's thought, Norton and Young spring to mind.

[SRock]

I don't know what the feelings are in MMA, but historicall that's the way it's been in boxing.

How many decisions did Ali get simply because he was Ali? Without a second's thought, Norton and Young spring to mind.

It's not uncommon in MMA either. I've seen a handful of fights where the #1 contender or the champ gets the win simply because the challenger or #2 contender didn't dominate them.

[thunderball]

It's funny though what a close loss will do for a guy... Quite often a guy who loses a controversial decision (get's 'F-ing robbed!' as the simple Sherdoggers would say) sees his popularity skyrocket...even more so than he might have should he have won a close decision. I'm not saying that Shogun is in a better position by being deemed the loser of this last fight, but it seems that many people are now cyber-booing Machida for winning and elevating Shogun to some mythical position for being so unfairly treated (as some see it). Either way, the rematch is going to be sick. :biggrin:

[SRock]

It's funny though what a close loss will do for a guy... Quite often a guy who loses a controversial decision (get's 'F-ing robbed!' as the simple Sherdoggers would say) sees his popularity skyrocket...even more so than he might have should he have won a close decision. I'm not saying that Shogun is in a better position by being deemed the loser of this last fight, but it seems that many people are now cyber-booing Machida for winning and elevating Shogun to some mythical position for being so unfairly treated (as some see it). Either way, the rematch is going to be sick. :biggrin:

New Avatar!

Yeah, that's not uncommon. Shogun will be ok either way. Something like this usually gets them attention and motivates them to devastate their next opponent.

[The Nid Hog]

Shogun should have never let it go to the judges. I scored it 48-47 Shogun, but that's not the decisive victory that you need when you're fighting the champ. I haven't watched the fight again, but it seemed to me that by the time the fight was in the last minute or so of the fourth round, Machida's mobility was really affected. Unfortunately for Shogun, he didn't get Machida to that point earlier and he didn't exploit it in the fifth. On the other hand, it's hard to believe that Machida v. Rua II isn't in the works already. Machida has a lot to think about.

There's been a lot of discussion about the Rothwell stoppage. Frankly, I think that Mazzagatti could have stopped it right after they announced the fighters. The only way that Rothwell was going to win was if Velazquez broke both his hands beating him or had a heart attack from exerting himself. That having been said, I still don't feel like we've seen enough from Velasquez to justify his elite status. I think that Lesnar is going to brutalize him (I'm already foreseeing a Lesnar win over Carwin) and then he can get some fights at heavyweight with decent competitors so that we can see what he's got.

Otherwise, not a bad night of fights. My satellite receiver crashed on Saturday night so I had to watch it on my laptop--I'm looking forward to catching it again on a bigger screen.

[ouch]

There's been a lot of discussion about the Rothwell stoppage. Frankly, I think that Mazzagatti could have stopped it right after they announced the fighters.

Now that's funny. Right up there with the classic line about Vito Antuofermo- he starts bleeding at the weigh-in.

[SRock]

Shogun should have never let it go to the judges. I scored it 48-47 Shogun, but that's not the decisive victory that you need when you're fighting the champ. I haven't watched the fight again, but it seemed to me that by the time the fight was in the last minute or so of the fourth round, Machida's mobility was really affected. Unfortunately for Shogun, he didn't get Machida to that point earlier and he didn't exploit it in the fifth. On the other hand, it's hard to believe that Machida v. Rua II isn't in the works already. Machida has a lot to think about.

There's been a lot of discussion about the Rothwell stoppage. Frankly, I think that Mazzagatti could have stopped it right after they announced the fighters. The only way that Rothwell was going to win was if Velazquez broke both his hands beating him or had a heart attack from exerting himself. That having been said, I still don't feel like we've seen enough from Velasquez to justify his elite status. I think that Lesnar is going to brutalize him (I'm already foreseeing a Lesnar win over Carwin) and then he can get some fights at heavyweight with decent competitors so that we can see what he's got.

Otherwise, not a bad night of fights. My satellite receiver crashed on Saturday night so I had to watch it on my laptop--I'm looking forward to catching it again on a bigger screen.

48-47 is what I scored it as well, also for Shogun. I think if Shogun would have capped off the 5th with a frenzied attack he would have gotten the nod.

I agree about Cain/hype and also think Brock is going to beat Carwin. There are exciting things going on in the UFC right now. Crappy things happen from time to time but overall going well.

[thunderball]

Whoa, did I just read that Lesnar has bowed out of the Carwin match due to illness?? Bummer.

[The Nid Hog]

Whoa, did I just read that Lesnar has bowed out of the Carwin match due to illness?? Bummer.

Wow--that's a shocker. Looks like Lesnar has been sick for a while:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/update-lesnar-out-of-ufc-106-20560

[Mejnoon]

What I mean is I gave two rounds definitively to each fighter. The remaining round was so so close, but I think I would have given it to Shogun. In my mind he squeaked out a win. However, the judges obviously didn't see it that way and I think it is because it wasn't a dominant performance. The Dragon was never in any real trouble, never KO'd, wobbled or in danger of being KO'd or submitted. I think to topple a champ you should have to dominate them. It's ok (IMO) to win a title on a decision but it should be an obvious domination.

I don't agree at all. I had 4 rounds (1,2,4 and 5) definitively for Shogun. In 1 Rua landed 17 of 25 strikes to Machida's 10/18...in 2 Rua landed 23/39 to Machida's 11/21. Shogun was the only one who showed any agression/octagon control, and there was no ground fighting to tip the judges in Machidas favor. I am honestly blown away that anyone could see those rounds for Machida. 4 and 5 were even more clear cut.

I didn't see any rounds definitively for Machida. 3 was the only one that was even questionable, solely on the strength of his ultimately ineffective flurry at the end (and Shogun was slipping/countering through it...he landed a hard right towards the end of that flurry). Shogun was still up in total strikes landed and accuracy percentage (19/36 strikes vs. 15/29). If I was a judge I would have given 3 to Shogun too, but I guess I can see how someone could have scored it for Machida.

In a fight that never went to the ground, I fail to see how the fighter that landed more strikes in EVERY round and had greater striking accuracy in EVERY round, not to mention pursued his opponent, controlled the pace of the fight, and inflicted more damage, lost the decision.

This wasn't a close fight at all it was a blowout. Shogun methodically picked Machida apart...he did EVERYTHING right, it was a fantastic performance against a guy that befuddles most of his opponents. He came with the solution to the Machida puzzle, and Machida looked completely lost. His corner kept telling him he'd figure out Shogun's timing, and he never did. It just got worse as the fight progressed.

And then he was blatantly, inexcusably robbed. This decision disgusts me...those three clowns have no business judging mma and I hope the uproar over this forces the CSAC to take a close look at their judges the protocol for choosing them.

[Mejnoon]

And as far as the whole, "You have to dominate a champ to take their belt" business...I don't buy it. All fights should be judged using the same rubric, and in a title fight the guy who wins walks out with the strap. Giving the Champion a scoring advantage, no matter how slight, leads to paper champions.

Look back at the Griffin/Rampage fight...did Forrest DOMINATE Rampage?? IMO Forrest won that fight, but I certainly wouldn't call it domination...he was almost finished a couple times. Rampage did exponentially more in that fight than Machida did against Rua, and he lost his belt.

[SRock]

And as far as the whole, "You have to dominate a champ to take their belt" business...I don't buy it. All fights should be judged using the same rubric, and in a title fight the guy who wins walks out with the strap. Giving the Champion a scoring advantage, no matter how slight, leads to paper champions.

Look back at the Griffin/Rampage fight...did Forrest DOMINATE Rampage?? IMO Forrest won that fight, but I certainly wouldn't call it domination...he was almost finished a couple times. Rampage did exponentially more in that fight than Machida did against Rua, and he lost his belt.

Buy it or not it is a bit of an industry norm in both boxing and MMA...


How many decisions did Ali get simply because he was Ali? Without a second's thought, Norton and Young spring to mind.

.... and there are countless other examples.

I like Shogun and while I think Machida's style is boring as watching paint dry I certainly wouldn't want to see anything bad happen to him either.

All that said, I do think there is some value to the argument about beating the champ, right or wrong. I also think it is both bad business and bad for the media when titles change hands every fight as well as boring to the fans.

[TimmyBoston]

What else is really too bad about the Machida/Rua decision is that if Rua had won, Anderson Silva probably would have been fighting at 205 in the near future for the title. He's been more reluctant to move up because of his unwillingness to fight Machida. :mad:

[SRock]

What else is really too bad about the Machida/Rua decision is that if Rua had won, Anderson Silva probably would have been fighting at 205 in the near future for the title. He's been more reluctant to move up because of his unwillingness to fight Machida. :mad:

Very true. Silva has said flat out that he "WILL NOT" fight The Dragon. I think Silva at 205 more regularly could be interesting. Ultimately I think it could be his undoing though.

Also, I'm not real keen on Tito/Forrest being the main event in lieu of Lesnar/Carwin. :mad:

If I were in the states I wouldn't get the PPV, but since they are free here on the American Forces Network I'm sure I'll watch. :biggrin:

[Kenno]

I tend to also think ya gotta beat the champ, not just beat him by a hair. If the champ in this case machida is worth his salt he'll offer rua a rematch. The champ in any fight has defended his/her title many times and shouldn't be stripped because one judge had an off night either way?

[SRock]

I tend to also think ya gotta beat the champ, not just beat him by a hair. If the champ in this case machida is worth his salt he'll offer rua a rematch. The champ in any fight has defended his/her title many times and shouldn't be stripped because one judge had an off night either way?

Machida seems to be a class act. They asked him immediately after the fight if he'd consider a rematch and he emphatically said Yes, anytime. They'll fight again as long as Shogun can rattle off a quick win against top talent.

Truthfully after the fight was over you could tell that Machida didn't really expect to win. Most thought Shogun had it.

I look forward to the rematch.

[Kenno]

that machida's got a really weird style, man he doesn't even look like a fighter, looks like he should be an altar boy or something? should be a good rematch if it ever happens and silva should get in on the action whoever wins.

[SRock]

that machida's got a really weird style, man he doesn't even look like a fighter, looks like he should be an altar boy or something? should be a good rematch if it ever happens and silva should get in on the action whoever wins.

I agree, its somewhere between traditional Karate and strange.

[TimmyBoston]

Very true. Silva has said flat out that he "WILL NOT" fight The Dragon. I think Silva at 205 more regularly could be interesting. Ultimately I think it could be his undoing though.

Also, I'm not real keen on Tito/Forrest being the main event in lieu of Lesnar/Carwin. :mad:


If Griffin succeeds in knocking Ortiz's brain from his head, I'll be happy.

[FreezerBurns]

If Griffin succeeds in knocking Ortiz's brain from his head, I'll be happy.

Now we're talkin!

[SRock]

If Griffin succeeds in knocking Ortiz's brain from his head, I'll be happy.

I still don't think it is main event worthy, but I have to agree I'd love to see Forrest destroy Tito. Ortiz was always an overrated loud mouthed punk. Plus after Forrest's last loss, I def like to see him get a win over Chito.

[TimmyBoston]

I still don't think it is main event worthy, but I have to agree I'd love to see Forrest destroy Tito. Ortiz was always an overrated loud mouthed punk. Plus after Forrest's last loss, I def like to see him get a win over Chito.

I totally agree it's not main event worthy, but still I'd love to see Forrest destroy him.

[SRock]

I totally agree it's not main event worthy, but still I'd love to see Forrest destroy him.

You and me both brother!

[Barcochris]

am I the only one that fell off the forest bandwagon after his loss to Silva? I have NEVER seen a fighter dominated the way he was.. Then to just run out of the ring the way he did... I lost a lot of respect for a fighter that I had previously rooted for

[FreezerBurns]

am I the only one that fell off the forest bandwagon after his loss to Silva? I have NEVER seen a fighter dominated the way he was.. Then to just run out of the ring the way he did... I lost a lot of respect for a fighter that I had previously rooted for

Yeah, that running away thing was weird. I think having to fight Tito Ortiz is punishment enough though.

[TimmyBoston]

am I the only one that fell off the forest bandwagon after his loss to Silva? I have NEVER seen a fighter dominated the way he was.. Then to just run out of the ring the way he did... I lost a lot of respect for a fighter that I had previously rooted for

I have always been and still am a huge fan of Forrest Griffin. He was fighting the best fighter in the UFC. Yeah, he got pounded, but come on, everyone else at 205 or 185 would have lostt. The running out thing was weird, but I think he was ashamed. He didn't want to talk about it. I don't blame him for that.

[TimmyBoston]

Whoa, did I just read that Lesnar has bowed out of the Carwin match due to illness?? Bummer.

The more I think about it, I'm really bummed about this. I was looking forward to seeing someone near Lesnar's size battle him. Do you guys think there is any heavyweight out there (besides Fedor) who can beat Lesnar?

[Barcochris]

I have always been and still am a huge fan of Forrest Griffin. He was fighting the best fighter in the UFC. Yeah, he got pounded, but come on, everyone else at 205 or 185 would have lostt. The running out thing was weird, but I think he was ashamed. He didn't want to talk about it. I don't blame him for that.

Yea Ok I understand that... But if you are not going to stay in the ring after a loss and not want to talk about it, You Should not stay in the ring after a win... You take the good with the bad.

[TimmyBoston]

Yea Ok I understand that... But if you are not going to stay in the ring after a loss and not want to talk about it, You Should not stay in the ring after a win... You take the good with the bad.

Yes you should, but it's really easy to make that criticism from the stands and is much harder when you're the athlete.

[The Nid Hog]

am I the only one that fell off the forest bandwagon after his loss to Silva? I have NEVER seen a fighter dominated the way he was.. Then to just run out of the ring the way he did... I lost a lot of respect for a fighter that I had previously rooted for

Eh, I don't think that it's worth it to get into analyzing the personal side of fighters. Unless you know them personally or you've trained with them, it's all hype. Is Tito a conniving creep? Is Randy a gentlemanly old warrior? Is Forrest an "aw shucks" county boy? Is Rampage Rampage? Who knows? The industry creates one-note personalities for them and feeds that to viewers over and over again. Some days I'm a pretty nice guy, other days I'm an overbearing jerk. No reason to think that they're any different.

[Sullybob]

am I the only one that fell off the forest bandwagon after his loss to Silva? I have NEVER seen a fighter dominated the way he was.. Then to just run out of the ring the way he did... I lost a lot of respect for a fighter that I had previously rooted for

I doubt it. I was and still am a Forrest fan. He got beat, pretty badly, so have other fighters. He lasted longer then James Irvin. I respect him for being a fighter, I don't know enough about him and his personal life to respect him for that.

[Mejnoon]

The more I think about it, I'm really bummed about this. I was looking forward to seeing someone near Lesnar's size battle him. Do you guys think there is any heavyweight out there (besides Fedor) who can beat Lesnar?

I think Lesnar is still very, very green. I think any rangy, powerful striker has a shot if they come in with the right gameplan.

I saw Carwin knocking him out. Lesnar has a tendency to use his size and power to force his takedowns (he's done that since his NCAA days), he doesn't change levels, he just rushes in. If a guy trains to circle away from his bum rush and throw hard counters, he'll find his chin, and Brock has been hurt with punches a couple of times. Randy landed pretty effectively a couple times against Brock by doing this, and he doesn't have much range at all compared to a lot of heavyweights.

[SRock]

am I the only one that fell off the forest bandwagon after his loss to Silva? I have NEVER seen a fighter dominated the way he was.. Then to just run out of the ring the way he did... I lost a lot of respect for a fighter that I had previously rooted for

I'll always be a Forrest fan. That guy has the most heart in MMA. Probably the same reason he ran out. It was too tough to take. Then again if you were that caught up/proud of what you do would you want to stand an interview with someone about why you were decimated? Forrest is a good guy.


Yeah, that running away thing was weird. I think having to fight Tito Ortiz is punishment enough though.

I think fighting Tito is meant to bolster Forrests morale. After he KO's Tito he'll have his swagger back.


I have always been and still am a huge fan of Forrest Griffin. He was fighting the best fighter in the UFC. Yeah, he got pounded, but come on, everyone else at 205 or 185 would have lostt. The running out thing was weird, but I think he was ashamed. He didn't want to talk about it. I don't blame him for that.

+1


The more I think about it, I'm really bummed about this. I was looking forward to seeing someone near Lesnar's size battle him. Do you guys think there is any heavyweight out there (besides Fedor) who can beat Lesnar?

I was/am really look forward to this fight. Luckily its only postponed a couple of months. I think it should be a great fight. I think Carwin has a chance and I certainly think Fedor would have a chance possibly a couple of others, but I just don't see it happening. Unless someone lands that one lucky crippling shot.


Yes you should, but it's really easy to make that criticism from the stands and is much harder when you're the athlete.

+1


I think Lesnar is still very, very green. I think any rangy, powerful striker has a shot if they come in with the right gameplan.

I saw Carwin knocking him out. Lesnar has a tendency to use his size and power to force his takedowns (he's done that since his NCAA days), he doesn't change levels, he just rushes in. If a guy trains to circle away from his bum rush and throw hard counters, he'll find his chin, and Brock has been hurt with punches a couple of times. Randy landed pretty effectively a couple times against Brock by doing this, and he doesn't have much range at all compared to a lot of heavyweights.

+1 I agree very much but the more I see him fight the more obvious it becomes that he can just run through people with his Rhino like approach. Brock will lose eventually but I think he is going to go on to have a great MMA career. He can only get better.

[The Nid Hog]

I think Lesnar is still very, very green. I think any rangy, powerful striker has a shot if they come in with the right gameplan.

I saw Carwin knocking him out. Lesnar has a tendency to use his size and power to force his takedowns (he's done that since his NCAA days), he doesn't change levels, he just rushes in. If a guy trains to circle away from his bum rush and throw hard counters, he'll find his chin, and Brock has been hurt with punches a couple of times. Randy landed pretty effectively a couple times against Brock by doing this, and he doesn't have much range at all compared to a lot of heavyweights.

I'd like to see it play out like that, and Carwin is certainly a more seasoned fighter. Still, I'll keep my wallet in my pocket for this one.

I'll be interested to see how this whole thing works out. I haven't looked for any news updates today but I feel like it isn't about sickness. I have a feeling that it's $$$ at the bottom of the situation.

[SRock]

I'd like to see it play out like that, and Carwin is certainly a more seasoned fighter. Still, I'll keep my wallet in my pocket for this one.

I'll be interested to see how this whole thing works out. I haven't looked for any news updates today but I feel like it isn't about sickness. I have a feeling that it's $$$ at the bottom of the situation.

Everything I can find says illness that has been bothering Brock for 3-4 weeks and the fight has already been rescheduled for after New Years. We'll see.

[thunderball]

Probably not gonna happen anytime soon but I wonder how Overeem would do against either Carwin, Velasquez, or Lesnar.

[Kenno]

when you get beat you should take it like a man, to have run out like that i lost some respect for forest also. you owe it to your fans who pay good money to come and cheer for you and when you lose you run off and not say anything to them, poor form. they all like hanging around when they win, only the humble take it like a man and face the music when they lose.

no need to analyze personalities, just show some respect to your fans.

[SRock]

when you get beat you should take it like a man, to have run out like that i lost some respect for forest also. you owe it to your fans who pay good money to come and cheer for you and when you lose you run off and not say anything to them, poor form. they all like hanging around when they win, only the humble take it like a man and face the music when they lose.

no need to analyze personalities, just show some respect to your fans.

First, I'd like to say its good to see a boxing enthusiast in this thread. Welcome Kenno. I know its not your first post here, but I forgot to drop the welcome when you showed up. It's nice to get a different perspective.

Second, I decided I'll wait to judge Forrest on his actions after the run away. I'd imagine he wasn't real keen on fighting Silva (the guys a machine) but I do agree that it is disrespectful to the fans. I'm hoping Forrest bounces back. That guy has a ton of heart and I think it was that emotion that prompted the Runaway Bride moment.

[RBE17]

I didn't see the Griffin / Silva fight, but heard about Forrest leaving afterward. I don't know if anyone else here has read this, but it certainly explains his actions.

http://www.themmanews.com/?p=4675

If his jaw was dislocated, he might not have been able to talk.

[The Nid Hog]

Everything I can find says illness that has been bothering Brock for 3-4 weeks and the fight has already been rescheduled for after New Years. We'll see.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that either--just a suspicion. But let's think about it. Lesnar's initial draw was the fact that he was the up-and-coming heel. A monstrous heavyweight coming from pro wrestling who challenged the orthodox UFC. Purists hated him and he brought along his own hoards of slack-jawed wrestling fans. People wanted to see him win, people wanted to see him lose--very polarizing. Now, it turns out that, on top of being a huge obnoxious wrestler, he's actually good enough to have fought his way to the top of the division. Who's left? Big Nog has become kind of the new Randy--the fading warrior. But otherwise, Lesnar has become the draw for the UFC heavyweight division. The question is no longer can Lesnar beat Couture or Mir, but can anybody beat Lesnar.

So think about it--wouldn't it be natural for the big draw to shop himself around? This isn't like Paul Buentello trying to find a home somewhere. This is the guy who realizes that it's his name on the marquee that's bringing in the fans. Why not try to stretch Zuffa out over the barrel and see if there's some more to get? Now that Strikeforce is a much more legitimate mainstream concern (in ways that the shaky EliteXC or the troubled Affliction wasn't), maybe he's testing the waters over there? How much money would Lesnar v. Fedor make? Or, to put it this way, how much money did Zuffa make for Randy v. Fedor (hint: $0)?

Here's what we know: Lesnar isn't fighting until after the first of the year. We also know that Lesnar is more than willing to litigate, and that he knows that he is a walking multi-million dollar a year business. With Lesnar off the card, Zuffa is going to get a chance to have a "It's a Wonderful Life"-like experience. What would life be like without Brock? I think that they'll find that it's a life with far fewer PPV buys and probably fewer dimwit-but-paying wrestling fans in the seats.

So who's to say? While Brock sits at home in his bathrobe with a thermometer in his mouth, I'll bet that a lot of lawyers and accountants are doing some figuring. If Lesnar v. Carwin finally happens after the first of the year, I'll bet that the bottom line for Lesnar has improved a lot. And if it doesn't, we'll know just how sick Brock was.

[Barcochris]

I didn't see the Griffin / Silva fight, but heard about Forrest leaving afterward. I don't know if anyone else here has read this, but it certainly explains his actions.

http://www.themmanews.com/?p=4675

If his jaw was dislocated, he might not have been able to talk.

If that is indeed the case I would withdraw my comments against Forest. One thing I do know that no matter what you cant help but root for the guy. I had not heard that he was injured but if he needed medical attention, That I understand

[Kenno]

thanks for the welcome robbo,

on the flip side forrests management group said he was fine after the fight and like it says mma has doctors ringside?
http://mmahits.com/fighters/forrest-griffin/griffin-not-really-injured-devastated-with-loss/

and even if he was seriously injured he's team could have said something?

i don't wanna judge his character, his heart or courage, but the runaway put me off.

[RBE17]

thanks for the welcome robbo,

on the flip side forrests management group said he was fine after the fight and like it says mma has doctors ringside?
http://mmahits.com/fighters/forrest-griffin/griffin-not-really-injured-devastated-with-loss/

and even if he was seriously injured he's team could have said something?

i don't wanna judge his character, his heart or courage, but the runaway put me off.

Well, I guess he can add that to his lists of things to never do after a fight again. After seeing how stupid he looked during is victory lap after submitting Rua he said he'd never celebrate like that again. Now, he knows never to leave the ring like that.

If he was injured, I can understand it. If he wasn't, just suck it up, give props and then leave.

[Mejnoon]

Well, I guess he can add that to his lists of things to never do after a fight again. After seeing how stupid he looked during is victory lap after submitting Rua he said he'd never celebrate like that again. Now, he knows never to leave the ring like that.

If he was injured, I can understand it. If he wasn't, just suck it up, give props and then leave.

I don't buy the "he ran out to get medical attention" business. There is always a doctor ringside, and in my experience the doctor always checks a fighter who just got KO'd or TKO'd BEFORE he's allowed to leave the cage.

He ran because he was embarrassed/dissapointed/whatever, and its not the first time he's acted a little childish after losing (Jardine). Its forgivable though...I still like the guy, he always comes to fight. If he wasn't dedicated to winning every time he stepped in the cage, he wouldn't get so emotional about losing.

[SRock]

If he wasn't dedicated to winning every time he stepped in the cage, he wouldn't get so emotional about losing.

I agree.

[thunderball]

Wow. Anybody else just see the Fedor/Rogers fight? Ka-BAM!

[TimmyBoston]

Wow. Anybody else just see the Fedor/Rogers fight? Ka-BAM!

Rogers fought much better than I expected him to. But Fedor is well, Fedor. All in all, it was a pretty good card. I was really hoping Jake Shields would lose though, I just can't stand watching that guy. I also had Silva beating Werdum 29-28.

[thunderball]

I am consistently amazed at how hard Fedor hits...seeing it in slow motion it looks like Brett was hit by a truck...totally spins him. Brett must have 40 or 50 pounds on him too. Many of Fedor's knockout punches 'look' sloppy or just lucky (it seems he's hardly even looking in this one or the Arlovski knockout) but they are anything but lucky punches. Pure planned precision poundage!! :biggrin:

EDIT: Upon seeing several replay GIFs from different angles it's clear that Fedor was actually looking where his fist was headed right up until the moment of impact.

[TimmyBoston]

I am consistently amazed at how hard Fedor hits...seeing it in slow motion it looks like Brett was hit by a truck...totally spins him. Brett must have 40 or 50 pounds on him too. Many of Fedor's knockout punches 'look' sloppy or just lucky (it seems he's hardly even looking in this one or the Arlovski knockout) but they are anything but lucky punches. Pure planned precision poundage!! :biggrin:

EDIT: Upon seeing several replay GIFs from different angles it's clear that Fedor was actually looking where his fist was headed right up until the moment of impact.

THe other amazing thing about Fedor is the way he puts every pound of his weight into his punches yet he can recover when he does miss. And agree with you, that was no wild shot, he knew exactly what he was doing with that knockout blow. Fedor is truly a marvel.

[Sullybob]

I thought Fedor's comments on how Rodgers splays his legs before he punches was pretty amazing. He doesn't miss anything.

[SRock]

Finally saw this one. Wow, just wow. First of all, mad props to Brett Rogers. That was only his 11th fight and he not only held his own but appeared to be in control for a while. Second, Fedor isn't human. He had his nose broke (I think) and then started stalking. I told my wife he was watching for his moment and then dropped the KO.

What an amazing fight.

Werdum won his fight and that's how I saw it as well.

I was a bit disappointed with Mayhem though. Granted Shields is game but Mayhem was the bigger fighter and should have been able to pull off the win.

[SRock]

I thought Fedor's comments on how Rodgers splays his legs before he punches was pretty amazing. He doesn't miss anything.

That's what makes him so dangerous. Fedor is the Peyton Manning of MMA. That guy sees everything and can adjust like others only wish they could.

[The Nid Hog]

I thought that the whole event went off very well. I'm glad to see that CBS is willing to put this on without a freakshow--although the event reminded me a little bit of a Pride broadcast. Werdum v. Silva was a good fight. I thought that Silva seemed to fade a little bit at the end of the fight, but they put on a good show up unti then. I was surprised at how big Werdum looked when the were rolling--before the fight, Silva seemed to almost dwarf him. Anyway, I think that they'll both do well for the promotion.

Mousasi also looked tough, although he seemed surprised at how Sokoudjou hung in there through the first round. I'm excited to see where Mousasi goes from here. Meanwhile, Sokoudjou needs to rack up some Ws--maybe Coker will feed him a couple of tomato cans on Showtime.

I don't know why I don't like Shields either. Miller has never been one of my favorite fighters, but he's always game. I didn't think that he had enough time to finish Shields with the RNC--was that at the end of the third?--and that was the last good shot that he had. I appreciate Shield's slick ground game but he's got to either slap on some brutal submissions or learn to deliver a little more hurt from the top.

Fedor remains awesome. I would really like to see him work against fighters of his caliber, but this was a better matchup than I expected. I hope Strikeforce continues to shop for good heavyweights and keeps Fedor active while he's still got it.

[A-Man]

Before I get too far in depth, I'd like to point out I'm just a casual MMA fan.

As far as the presentation last night, much improved from their Kimbo/Elite XC shows. My biggest gripe was the commercial breaks. They were few and far between to begin the broadcast, then in the 2nd half it seemed to be minutes after minutes of commercial at a time.

As far as the fight, the first fight was a good show to start. But for a man as big as Silva, you'd think he'd have a little more big hit capability.

The Mousasi (sp?) fight wasn't bad. Although you got the feeling (and rightly so) that Sokoudjou was just outclassed and probably should not have been in there.

The Miller/Shields fight is where things got a little boring. Besides the snoozer of a fight, this is where the big commercials breaks happened before the Main Event. I think Miller used up his energy during his intro. Needed to take naps during the fight, and Shields seemed more than happy to be his human blanket. I've never seen Shields fight before, but from what I've read, that's how most of his fights go.

As for the ME, it was a good fight to watch. I liked how the crowd swayed back and forth. Started out with the Fedor ovation, then to chants of USA, then back to adoring Fedor. Rogers is a big man, and he probably has a nice future ahead of him, but like the earlier fight, probably wasn't right for this caliber opponent. However, Fedor did look human last night up until that shot. And while I"m thankful to be able to see him fight w/o having to pay (which I wouldn't) it's a bit of a shame he's this far along in his career and is on his downside.

All in all, good show, maybe some better matchups next time, evening out the commercial breaks, and thanks to M1/Strikforce for putting on a free show with the biggest star in the world that UFC would have no doubt charged their fans to watch :biggrin:

[Mejnoon]

Before I get too far in depth, I'd like to point out I'm just a casual MMA fan.

As far as the presentation last night, much improved from their Kimbo/Elite XC shows. My biggest gripe was the commercial breaks. They were few and far between to begin the broadcast, then in the 2nd half it seemed to be minutes after minutes of commercial at a time.


Agreed!


As far as the fight, the first fight was a good show to start. But for a man as big as Silva, you'd think he'd have a little more big hit capability.

I was surprised Werdum survived a few of the punches he took. I think it was a testament to Werdum's chin rather than Silva's power. I was stoked to see Werdum get the win, but I thought that fight (and in particular, round 2) could have gone either way.



The Mousasi (sp?) fight wasn't bad. Although you got the feeling (and rightly so) that Sokoudjou was just outclassed and probably should not have been in there.

Soko was outclassed in terms of skill, but he's ridiculously athletic...he's one of those guys who can end a fight at any moment against any opponent. I think if Soko had been given a little more time to develop before he was thrown to the lions things would have worked out a lot better for him. He doesn't seem very comfortable in the ring to me...he's extremely fast and extremely powerful, but he's also a little awkward.[/quote]



The Miller/Shields fight is where things got a little boring. Besides the snoozer of a fight, this is where the big commercials breaks happened before the Main Event. I think Miller used up his energy during his intro. Needed to take naps during the fight, and Shields seemed more than happy to be his human blanket. I've never seen Shields fight before, but from what I've read, that's how most of his fights go.

That one was frustrating to watch. Mayhem got outwrestled, thats it. And I don't agree that most of Shields' fights are lay and pray affairs, at least not his recent fights (prior to last night he'd finished 8 straight, going back 3.5 years). He's got a devastating submission game. I think that Mayhem's BJJ was vastly underrated going in to this fight...all I kept hearing was that Shield's was a world class black belt, etc etc. Mayhem's BJJ is top notch...he wore Shields like a backpack for a significant portion of that fight, and was never close to being submitted. And the one time he took Shields' back he locked up the RNC in seconds, and Shields was lucky to be saved by the bell. I'm sure Shield's planned to go in there and grab an arm or a guillotine, but Mayhem wasn't having it. Shields was left with only one avenue to victory...turn it in to a wrestling match. To Shield's credit, I don't know if there's anyone in MMA who combines wrestling and jiu jitsu as effectively as he does.



As for the ME, it was a good fight to watch. I liked how the crowd swayed back and forth. Started out with the Fedor ovation, then to chants of USA, then back to adoring Fedor. Rogers is a big man, and he probably has a nice future ahead of him, but like the earlier fight, probably wasn't right for this caliber opponent. However, Fedor did look human last night up until that shot. And while I"m thankful to be able to see him fight w/o having to pay (which I wouldn't) it's a bit of a shame he's this far along in his career and is on his downside.


I enjoyed the main event immensely. I'm a huge Fedor fan and I was pulling for him, but I've gotta admit I like Rogers...he's going places for sure. He's hungry...gotta love that.

As far as Fedor being on his downside...I disagree. He's looked human in MANY of his fights, particularly fighting much bigger opponents...but he ALWAYS prevails. Thats what makes him so great...he always finds a way to win.



All in all, good show, maybe some better matchups next time, evening out the commercial breaks, and thanks to M1/Strikforce for putting on a free show with the biggest star in the world that UFC would have no doubt charged their fans to watch :biggrin:

[TimmyBoston]

I've come to really enjoy watching Mousasi. He's a very talented young fighter. But why does he always look so scared before he fights? I noticed it before his fight with Babalu and recently with Soudkoju (sp). I'm sure he's not, but to me he looks like a terrified kid getting ready to face off with the school bully.


Anyone excited to see Randy Couture's return to 205? I'm hoping he pounds Vera. I have nothing against Vera, but I, hell everybody loves Couture. I'm also really looking forward to the Mike Swick and Dan Hardy fight. Hardy drives me crazy and I'm a long time big Swick fan, so I'd love to see him get a title shot. (I think he'll lose that title shot, but still I'd love to see him get the opportunity) I hope Bisping can bring himself back to a top contender after his devastating loss to Hendo.


Rob, next time you're in Indy, we've got to go watch a fight together. I'll buy the beers. :biggrin:

[SRock]

I thought that the whole event went off very well. I'm glad to see that CBS is willing to put this on without a freakshow--although the event reminded me a little bit of a Pride broadcast. Werdum v. Silva was a good fight. I thought that Silva seemed to fade a little bit at the end of the fight, but they put on a good show up unti then. I was surprised at how big Werdum looked when the were rolling--before the fight, Silva seemed to almost dwarf him. Anyway, I think that they'll both do well for the promotion.

Overall I agree. I'm not one for fighters coming into ridiculous WWE style intros (think Mayhem Miller and the Cheerleaders). One of the announcers (CBS guy) was crap, I almost spit out my beer when he said that one of the fighters had another in a "Figure Four" (body triangle), who's going to be the next guest referee Vince McMahon :lol:. I also thought one of the refs looked like he should have been officiating at a chess tournament (though he did a fair job). Those gripes aside I think it went off pretty well. I wonder though how long it will take Fedor to bankrupt them the way Kimbo did EliteXC. They can't possibly be bringing in enough via sponsors to cover the production and all of the salaries (even with what CBS is shelling out).

I do like the idea of more fight brands/frequency though.


Mousasi also looked tough, although he seemed surprised at how Sokoudjou hung in there through the first round. I'm excited to see where Mousasi goes from here. Meanwhile, Sokoudjou needs to rack up some Ws--maybe Coker will feed him a couple of tomato cans on Showtime.

I really don't like non-title fights for belt holders (with the exception of catchweight or totally out of their weight class fights). I think if a title holder is fighting and it is in their weight class they should always be fighting the #1 contender and defending their belt.


I don't know why I don't like Shields either. Miller has never been one of my favorite fighters, but he's always game. I didn't think that he had enough time to finish Shields with the RNC--was that at the end of the third?--and that was the last good shot that he had. I appreciate Shield's slick ground game but he's got to either slap on some brutal submissions or learn to deliver a little more hurt from the top.

I really wanted to see Mayhem get that choke. To be honest it looked like Shields was starting to move his hand to tap, right as they got ripped apart at the bell.


Fedor remains awesome. I would really like to see him work against fighters of his caliber, but this was a better matchup than I expected. I hope Strikeforce continues to shop for good heavyweights and keeps Fedor active while he's still got it.

Many are saying Fedor was "exposed". I disagree. I think the Fedor vs. Rogers fight just shows why a Super Heavyweight division is needed. I think Fedor would decimate anyone 225-240 (or so) and when he eventually loses it's going to be to some monster who is tremendously larger than him. I mean honestly, imagine BJ Penn fighting Rampage.


As far as Fedor being on his downside...I disagree. He's looked human in MANY of his fights, particularly fighting much bigger opponents...but he ALWAYS prevails. Thats what makes him so great...he always finds a way to win.

I agree. Fedor is over on near over he was just fighting a man that should realistically be in a higher weight class than Fedor.


Anyone excited to see Randy Couture's return to 205? I'm hoping he pounds Vera. I have nothing against Vera, but I, hell everybody loves Couture. I'm also really looking forward to the Mike Swick and Dan Hardy fight. Hardy drives me crazy and I'm a long time big Swick fan, so I'd love to see him get a title shot. (I think he'll lose that title shot, but still I'd love to see him get the opportunity) I hope Bisping can bring himself back to a top contender after his devastating loss to Hendo.


Rob, next time you're in Indy, we've got to go watch a fight together. I'll buy the beers. :biggrin:

I'm always excited to see Captain America fight! That man is awesome. Sure he's had his losses but hes doing something most men half his age couldn't/wouldn't do. Randy is the heat. I'm a Quick Swick fan as well. I'd love to see him get a 8 second KO a la the Mike Swick of a couple of years ago.

As for beers and a good fight, I'm always game! We may even be able to do one better. My brother trains with Chris Lytle and his crew so maybe we could take a day and hang with a few UFC fighters.

[bigred90gt]

am I the only one that fell off the forest bandwagon after his loss to Silva? I have NEVER seen a fighter dominated the way he was.. Then to just run out of the ring the way he did... I lost a lot of respect for a fighter that I had previously rooted for

He did the same thing after the Keith Jardine fight when Jardine dominated him.

[TimmyBoston]

As for beers and a good fight, I'm always game! We may even be able to do one better. My brother trains with Chris Lytle and his crew so maybe we could take a day and hang with a few UFC fighters.

That would be badass!

[bigred90gt]

I really don't like non-title fights for belt holders (with the exception of catchweight or totally out of their weight class fights). I think if a title holder is fighting and it is in their weight class they should always be fighting the #1 contender and defending their belt.

I thought this was strange as well, and not quite sure why they did it. I could understand catchweight, and someone missing weight (ala Paulo Filo vs Chael Sonnen). Although in that case, I think if the "champ" misses weight, the belt should be stripped from him. Part of being a professional fighter, especially at the level of being the champion of your weight class, is making weight for your fights. If you cannot maintain the level of discipline required to make weight, you should not be the champ.

[SRock]

That would be badass!

+1 Don't know when I'll make it to Indy next but we'll definitely have a few beers.

[TimmyBoston]

+1 Don't know when I'll make it to Indy next but we'll definitely have a few beers.

Good deal. :smile: I've been meaning to PM you for a while about when you are in town again we definitely need to meet up.

[SRock]

Good deal. :smile: I've been meaning to PM you for a while about when you are in town again we definitely need to meet up.

I wouldn't forget to PM you if/when I make it there. Heck you live a few blocks from my family.

[FreezerBurns]

UFC 105 from Manchester England = Top British fighters vs. Tomato Can City. No wonder this was free.

[SRock]

So what did everyone thing of the Couture fight? Randy Controlled 90% of the match but I think Vera got the best shots in. Either way I agree wit the decision but one has to wonder how long Couture will hang around.


UFC 105 from Manchester England = Top British fighters vs. Tomato Can City. No wonder this was free.

Unfortunately this seems to be the norm for shows in the UK. I understand that the UFC is trying to build their name/reputation but always pandering to the crowd with local fighters against poorly matched opposition isn't doing the fighters or the fans in the rest of the world any good.

At least this time Bisping deserved his win, unlike the total theft of a W placed on Matt Hammil when he fought "The Count" in the UK.

[FreezerBurns]

Unfortunately this seems to be the norm for shows in the UK. I understand that the UFC is trying to build their name/reputation but always pandering to the crowd with local fighters against poorly matched opposition isn't doing the fighters or the fans in the rest of the world any good.

Tonight is the first time I've noticed it. This is total B.S. and blatantly obvious and insulting to even the most casual of UFC fans.

[SRock]

Tonight is the first time I've noticed it. This is total B.S. and blatantly obvious and insulting to even the most casual of UFC fans.

Don't get me wrong. Bisping has faced respectable opponents in the UK but the other lesser (often unknown) fighters from the UK have historically been fed wins.

It is one thing about the UFC that really burns me up. :cursing:

[TimmyBoston]

I hate Dan Hardy.

[SRock]

I hate Dan Hardy.

Care to elaborate? I don't care much for his personality but he's a pretty decent fighter. I really would have preferred to see Quick nail that fight down though.

[Sullybob]

I wanted Swick to win, but I thought that Hardy's punching power might be the deciding factor in the fight. I don't understand why he kept trying to take Swick down, I thought that he was controlling the fight standing. I don't think that Dan is going to get by GSP.

I thought that Randy won the fight, not the most exciting win, but its a win. I think we all knew what his game plan was going to be going into the fight. Vera looked good, fast, accurate and he landed some really powerful kicks.

I am not a fan of Bisping, but he looked very good against Kang. He never looked worried on the ground at all.

[SRock]

I wanted Swick to win, but I thought that Hardy's punching power might be the deciding factor in the fight. I don't understand why he kept trying to take Swick down, I thought that he was controlling the fight standing. I don't think that Dan is going to get by GSP.

I thought that Randy won the fight, not the most exciting win, but its a win. I think we all knew what his game plan was going to be going into the fight. Vera looked good, fast, accurate and he landed some really powerful kicks.

I am not a fan of Bisping, but he looked very good against Kang. He never looked worried on the ground at all.

Pretty solid assessment Shawn.

[The Nid Hog]

Hope Mrs. Nid Hog DVR'd this for me!

[Sullybob]

Pretty solid assessment Shawn.

Thanks.

[SRock]

Hope Mrs. Nid Hog DVR'd this for me!

If not you really didn't miss much. There were only a few wow moments but they were in fights that aren't going to impact titles anytime soon.

Although, apparently in the post fight press conference Dan said that Brock is sick, very sick and he is worried.

[SRock]

Thanks.

Anytime brother, I was serious. You hit it on the head!

[Mejnoon]

UFC 105 from Manchester England = Top British fighters vs. Tomato Can City. No wonder this was free.

Past UFC's in the UK, I think that was the case. But this time I thought the match ups were legit for the most part...Bisping and Hardy in particular both faced very dangerous guys. I didn't see the line pre-fight, but I wouldn't be surprised if both were betting underdogs.

The only UK fighter that I think was given a relatively favorable match up was Andre Winner, and thats not because Rollie Delgado sucks...just because he's prone to eating overhand rights. Pearson fighting Riley maybe too...I've always seen Riley as something of a gatekeeper. Keep in mind, most of the promising TUF guys get relatively easy first fights.

As for the rest of them, I thought they were fairly even fights...Taylor and Hathaway are both Englishman, so thats not really relevant...Gugerty isn't that well known but he is definitely dangerous, particularly against a guy with a td defense problem like Etim...Osipzak vs Riddle seemed reasonable to me too. Paul Kelley is the only one left, and he lost.

Overall I thought this was a good card, but the main event was dissapointing. For the first time I felt like Randy was showing his age. I'm used to seeing him either finish his take downs or beat guys up in the clinch...seemed like all he could manage last night was to maintain control.

[Barcochris]

I agree, Randy looked a bit slow.. Not to knock Brandon Vera, but I think Coture might be at the end of an amazing carer. The whold card while not bad fights lacked a bit of intrest.