Chef's Knife

[MaxTO]

Hello,

Thought I'd throw out a question as there seems to be a fair bit of talk in regards to cooking in here...

I'm looking for a chef's knife and was wondering if any of you could throw out some recommendations (brands?) to guide me in the right direction.

Thanks!

[murchmb]

I have a set of Globals and really like them.

[boboakalfb]

Ouch should be along shortly to drop some Steel knowledge on you.

[MacArthur Mike]

Wusthof and Henckels are the most popular German made and do a great job. Global and Shun are Japanese companies that make a great line of knives as well.

If you dig the classic look, go for either the Wustohof or the Henckels. Wusthof is especially well balance and nicely made. The Globals are razor sharp and are up to any task, but they are a few bucks more than the Germans. Even more expensive are the Shuns, however, I recommend you get over to a cooking store like Williams Sonoma or Sur la Table and try out the Shun Ken Onion line. They cut like nobody's business and their handle feels great in your hand.

Also, the santoku is pretty much a Japanese Chefs knive. It is easier to sharpen as their is no bolster to get in the way. The blade is also thinner so you can slice and chop more finely than you could with a regular chefs knife. All these lines make a santoku knife. Some have those little pockets called grantons as well, some don't. The granton edge is supposed to prevent things from sticking to the blade and allow for meat to retain its juices when you cut it, however there is not that much of a difference to support them either way IMHO. I think they kinda look cool more than anything. The other bonus to the santoku vs. a traditional chef is that you can get that two handed chop on because the blade is rounded at the end, whereas its tougher with a chefs because it comes to a point. Stop into a store and try them out and find what feels best in your hand, most good cooking stores will sit there and tell you the best points of each instead of just handing you the knife and saying here have fun.

[Dennis]

Next time you are at the bookstore, look at Anthony Bourdain's Les Halles cookbook and read the section in the intro on knives. Knives are a really personal thing and everyone's hands are different. I have been using Wusthof Tridents for quite a long time and they so just OK to me. I got a Shun 8 inch chef knife last year for Christmas which is nice but the feel and balance are a little off to me. Shun do not have a bolster so if you developed the bad habit (cough cough) of resting a finger on the bolster, it doesn't work with Shun or similar knives.

I would not recommend buying a set. I have a large set of the Wushofs and find myself consistently using about 3 knives and that is it. You need a chef knife in 6 to 8 inch size depending on your hands and how much space you have, a serrated knife for bread and tomatoes, and a paring knive for peeling veggies. Anything else and you can pick it up when you find you really need it. I wouldn't recommend buying anything you can't maintain either. I have none of the equipment to take care of Japanese steel so I doubt I will ever own it regardless of the praises it gets.

Dennis

[msandoval858]

I'm a Henckels user for the most part. I like the balance and feel of traditional shape knives. I looked into Global when I was trying to find a good sashimi knife but I didn't care for the handles. Seems like wet hands would get slippery on those handles. Some reviews said the same thing, but I'd like to hear from other Global owners what they think. When I make sushi my hands are constantly wet and I need something with a good grip I don't have to worry about slipping out of my hand.

[Dinder1]

+1 on the Global knives, but I would not waste money on buying a complete set. All you really need is a chef's knife, a decent bread knife, and maybe a smaller paring knife.
DJ.

[moses]

+1 on the Global knives, but I would not waste money on buying a complete set. All you really need is a chef's knife, a decent bread knife, and maybe a smaller paring knife.
DJ.

Indeed. And my Chinese vegie cleaver when through even the crustiest bread like a hot knife through butter. (Past tense because I dropped it and shattered the edge :frown: ).

-Mo

[jduffy]

I could chime in here but Ouch is the last word in cooking it would seem. :biggrin:

[Dinder1]

I almost forgot, if you do look at the Shun knives, remember that they make both left and right handed models.
DJ.

[zachster]

About 7 or 8 years ago, I bought a whole set of forged knives, including 2 chefs' knives, from an Italian manufacturer, Due Buoi (Two Oxen), direct from their website. They are excellent of quality, balance and sharpness. I bought them before the Euro infested the continental economy, so the prices were amazing -- about half, or less, the price of equivalent Henckels knives at the time. They are probably more expensive now.

[Scotty]

I always wanted a good set & purchased the Wusthof classic set, and added a Wusthof santoku, & the Wusthof serrated tomato knife. The favorite ones we use are the santoku, the paring knife, the utility knife & the tomato knife in the summer. Scotty

[Scotto]

Ouch is going to come by and try to sell you on some real fancy Japanese knives, so I have to talk fast so he doesn't catch me. :wink:

First of all, don't bother with a set. All you really need is two knives for 99% of tasks: a chef's knife (I prefer an 8"), and a paring knife. That is really it. I'll use a boning knife occasionally, but most people won't need it.

I have a drawer full of expensive Henckels and Wustofs, which I keep razor sharp. They are great knives. Globals are wicked sharp, but are so damn uncomfortable I would avoid them.

Now here is the kicker. Listen close. After decades of hard core cookery, would I buy another forged Henckels or Wustof (or any other)? No way. Nowadays you can get stamped blades that are every bit as good if not better performers than forged blades. They may not be attractive, but for a fraction of the price they can't be beat. The poster child for these are the Forschner Victorinox series. They are dirt cheap, come very sharp, and hold an edge great. I have a bunch and love them.

Remember, it ain't how pretty your knives are, it is how they work and how skilled they are at using them. I make an analogy to golf. When you are paired up with someone with shiny new clubs, you know most of the time he is a hacker. The guy you really have to watch out for is the guy with the older set of beat up clubs. That is the guy who is going to take your money big time.

[reeffanatic]

I own a set of Shun knives and like others have said they cut like a dream and hold an edge longer than any other knives I have owned. That being said I would suggest getting your hands on one before shelling out the 130.00 for a chefs knife. The handle is a bit different from your classic German knife and for those with large hands you may find them not to your liking. I on the other hand love them and wouldn't even think of buying any other brand.

[majkeli]

I use Shun knives and I like them a lot. I have a 8'' chefs and a parer, which is all I've every used. It was recommended to me by the incredibly knowledgeable folks on egullet.com to use a smooth hard steel with them since the Shun's themselves are so hard. They hold their edge great and look cool too.

[Dennis]

Oh yes - the steel is all-important! Good point. This is what you want:
http://www.handamerican.com/steel3.html


You want either the S11 or S14 steels. They are smooth, not serrated and diamond cut. The diamond cut steels that come with most sets are far to harsh - these smooth steels are all you need.

Dennis

[chef8489]

I have a set of wusthof classic I am selling. It is my chef kit but I am going the Hattori route. It is a 9 piece set with a nice case.

[chef8489]

I own a set of Shun knives and like others have said they cut like a dream and hold an edge longer than any other knives I have owned. That being said I would suggest getting your hands on one before shelling out the 130.00 for a chefs knife. The handle is a bit different from your classic German knife and for those with large hands you may find them not to your liking. I on the other hand love them and wouldn't even think of buying any other brand.

I can not stand the d shape handle on the shuns. Defently hold one before buying one.

[lt_gustavsen]

I have just gone this road myself.
I will suggest you lurk in one of the forums committed to that, like this
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/

I can also recommend, If you go for Japanese chiefs knife, to buy from
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/
excellent service and nice prices. You must also chose what kind of steel you like. I like stainless
, but thats because of abuse. Carbon steel is normally sharper. It's also important to keep an eye on the steels rockwell hardness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_scale) (rc).
I found also this site interesting (http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/ck_dm_knife_skills/ interesting) , it's about knife skills.


Lars

[bandg]

Ditto everything Lars has given on info and links. I have ordered from jck and they have great selection and service. Bradley

[MJB]

My wife has always been very partial to Cutco knives. They are remarkably good for the price.

[ouch]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, guys (I think:crying:)

I'm far from an expert on cooking, but I do know my way around knives. You've already received some terrific advice, but I'll throw in my two cents, anyway.


First off, I'm glad you titled this thread "Chef's knife". The most important question one must address when deciding upon a "set" of knives is what your "second" knife will be. Why? Simple- the first knife is a no brainer, and is the same for everyone: a chef's knife, or its Japanese equivalent, the gyuto. You'll use this knife almost exclusively no matter what type of cooking you do. Your second knife will depend on your needs-
Do a lot of slicing? Get a slicer or sujihiki.
Take apart a lot of chickens? Get a boning knife or a honesuki.
Do A lot of delicate work? A 10-15cm paring knife, or petty, is indispensible.
Chop a lot of veggies? The humble cleaver can't be beat.

A great resource for info on knives is Fred's cutlery section on foodieforums.com-
http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=6

I've had knives from Wusthof, Henckels, Messermeister, Sabatier, and others. Some of them can be very nice, but for my money, the Japanese knives beat them hands down. Why? The two main reasons are that they use harder steel and they tend to have thinner blades. Scotto mentions an 8" chef's knife for good reason. The 10" ones are pretty cumbersome. Yet a 24cm gytuo (~9 1/2") weighs less than its 8" German counterpart, and will feel much more nimble in your hand. They also do not have full bolsters, allowing the entire blade to be sharpened and used.

Now I know that this may disappoint some, but I'm not going to recommend some "fancy" knives. Sure, everyone wants a gem of a knife, and contenders abound. The Misono UX-10 is a magnificent product (should be, at around $200), as is the Masamoto VG-10 and Hattori HD (both around $150). But for a first knife, and possibly a last, I would recommend the Tojiro DP 24cm gyuto (model F-809) which is on sale at JCK for a mere $53.46.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/DPSwdenSteelWoodenHandleSeries.html#WIDTH:%20367px ;%20HEIGHT:%20174px

You can get a top flight knife delivered to your door in days for $60. Can't beat it. If I had to keep only one of my knives, this would be it. Just a few bucks more than a Dexter or a Forschner, with Global killing performance.

Now, if you want to get a more expensive knife, by all means get one. just make sure you spend the big bucks on the chef's knife. Your lesser used knives can be cheaper and still provide a lifetime of pleasure.


Now here's the big butt- just like straight razors, knives (particularly the Japanese knives) require a commitment on the part of the owner. If you're not going to learn to hone and strop a straight, get a Feather. If you're not going to learn to sharpen your knives (half the fun, as I see it), don't even bother to get them. You'll need at least two water stones (or a combo) and work them on a regular basis. You will be rewarded for your efforts.

The second caveat is that, as with razors, this can be a severely addicting hobby.

[fuerein]

Ouch, are those Tojiro knives sharpened on both sides of the blade or only on one side? Also, do you still use a steel with those? I know using a steel on some Japanese knives does more harm than good.

[MaxTO]

Thanks for all the replies, very useful.

[moses]

You'll need at least two water stones (or a combo) and work them on a regular basis. You will be rewarded for your efforts.


What grits do you suggest? 1k, 4k? or something a little coarser?

Btw, that looks like a great knife. I am a little iffy about the length, but if you say so....

-Mo

[ouch]

Ouch, are those Tojiro knives sharpened on both sides of the blade or only on one side? Also, do you still use a steel with those? I know using a steel on some Japanese knives does more harm than good.

I think you are referring to single bevel knives. On those, one side of the knife is flat, or even slightly concave. On a right handed knife, the left side is flat, and the right side is beveled. Tradition Japanese knives such as the yanagi and usuba are made like this.

The "western style" Japanese knives, such as the aforementioned gyuto, are beveled on both sides, but asymmetrically. There are left handed and right handed versions, but my feelings regarding that notion are as follows-
the majority of the world is right handed, and shouldn't give it a second thought. The southpaws of the world (myself included) are used to living in a righty's world, and should notice very little difference. For most types of cooking, knives are used to make cuts in several directions. It is only when you get into task specific areas (such as slicing sushi) that this would become important. When I make a thin slice of gravlax, I have to use my left handed yanagi, as a right handed blade is awkward for such a motion.


Whether a knife has one side beveled, or two, both sides of the knife are sharpened.



One more thing to mention about gyutos in general- they are a bit more delicate than a thick bladed Henkels, for example. They are really intended to be used in a slicing manner, rather than a chopping one. For "push cuts", use a cleaver. When using a chef's knife, the blade should always be moving. As with saws, there is a different technique for western and Japanese knives. Most people cut while moving their knife forward (away from them). The Japanese slice while drawing the knife towards them, something which I have subconsciously adopted over the years.

[ouch]

What grits do you suggest? 1k, 4k? or something a little coarser?

Btw, that looks like a great knife. I am a little iffy about the length, but if you say so....

-Mo

You'll need, at minimum, a medium and a fine stone. A 1K stone establishes the edge and brings up the burr (good for knives, bad for razors). A 6K polish stone will finish things off nicely. King makes a good 1K/6K combo. Of course, before you know it, you'll have amassed more stones than knives.:tongue_sm Yep, just like razors.

As for the length, I think I'm in the minority about a 240mm gyuto- most people tend to gravitate towards longer ones, they're that nimble and well balanced. I don't know of anyone who said they wish they bought a smaller one, and many move up to a 27cm (10.6"er).


As for the ubiquitous santuko, they're not a cleaver, not a slicer, not a chef's nnife, in fact they're not anything, yet everyone has one (I have two, because I went on a buying spree). Better to leave them for Rachael Ray- they're a chick's knife! :lol: Whenever anything tries to be all-purpose, it often comes up short in most departments. Same for the santuko, but what the heck- you can get a good one for $40.

[Scotto]

Santuko's I think are a waste for the most part. The blade width generally doesn't change as much as a chef's knife, making it awkward for chopping correctly (push/slice instead of up and down action). I use mine more like a cleaver for the most part. A chef's knife is a much better tool in general.

[fuerein]

Santuko's I think are a waste for the most part. The blade width generally doesn't change as much as a chef's knife, making it awkward for chopping correctly (push/slice instead of up and down action). I use mine more like a cleaver for the most part. A chef's knife is a much better tool in general.

All the chefs I have heard talk about the difference between use of a santuko and chef say similar things. Most agree that the standard slicing motion employed with a chef knife just isn't possible with a santuko in part because there is the curve on the blade edge that lets you rock the knife. Santuko knives are generally better suited for chopping motions IMO.

[kozulich]

Personally, I use Cutco (American made if that makes a diff to you) and have be greatly satisfied. They're pricey, but the forever guarantee is no joke, and they'll even sharpen them for you. My MIL finds them at garage sales, and even though they are decades old, she ships them back to the factory (Olean NY I believe) and they come back to her like new. No ifs and or buts about it, even if you are not the original owner.

If I didn't have Cutco, I'd probably have Henckels.

[Suzuki]

I'm not an expert, but do a lot of cooking and have worked as a prep chef in my former life.

I've used high end German forged knives and some of the pricier Japanese knives as well.

I agree with both Ouch and Scotto that you don't need to spend big bucks to get a good chef's knife.

I have some of the industrial grade knives from Henckels and Victorinox - stamped blades with plastic no-slip handles. Good steel and the Henckels in particular has a very heavy blade - I think I paid $40 at a local shop that supplies to the restaurant trade.

If you're going to sharpen your knives yourself, you might want a sharpening guide to help you keep a constant bevel (DMT makes a pretty inexpensive one that works well with all brands of bench stone). Also a good steel is a must - I use a ceramic one that I got at Ikea for $10.

If you learn how to use a steel properly you can keep your knives very sharp and increase the interval between having to take them to the stone.

[ouch]

+1 on the santuko. My wife is the only one who ever touches it here. For some reason, women seem to enjoy these knives (see- I wasn't kidding when I said "chick's knife").

The santukos are too big for delicate work and too small for most major tasks. Their blade is shaped more like that of a cleaver, and if you're used to the rocking motion of a chef's knife, it will feel unnatural in your hand. Of all the knives (including the oddballs) this is the least important.

[jduffy]

Great information, great thread.

:biggrin:

[doctorsimon]

I'd love to develop a KKAD (Kitchen Knife AD) but SWMBO is lethal with knives -- she knows how to kill them.

I'm still using two sets of knives from IKEA. Yes, Ikea.

One is a really cheap set, they go in the dishwasher, are getting rusty in places and the wooden handles are starting to show the wear and tear. I did say that she is cruel to the knives! However, they still have a damn sharp edge.

The other set is older still. They are hand washed. I've have them since university, that'll be nearly 15 years now. Also damn sharp edges.

Three tricks to keeping that sharp edge:
1. don't let them sit in a drawer!
2. use them on a nice wooden or plastic board. Do not use glass or marble!
3. invest in a wet-stone to sharpen your knives. Don't mess about with a little sharpening steel -- they just don't do the job. I bought a stone probably a year ago now, and I've noticed only a few weeks ago that a few knives need re-sharpening. You'll get a good proper edge with a stone.

One day I'll replace the knives. I'll need to train the wife to respect them first. But considering these old IKEA knives look nice, handle well, and keep an edge I'm not rushing to spend a fortune on any new kitchen knives.

[galopede]

I had a Global but sold it as it always hurt my hand when doing more than a few cuts with it. Something about where the handle goes into the blade. My hand fell naturally on there because of the shape and the blade dug into the first joint of my forefinger.

I also have a Wusthof 8" jobbie which is quite nice but the ones I use most are 6" and 8" classic style Carbon Steel Sabatiers. So easy to keep sharp and a lovely balance. I bought the 6" new from Axminster tools and the 8" is about 30 years old now. The carbon steel discolours over time though, if that would put you off.

My other favourite is a Japanese Ice Bear santoku, also from Axminster - great for slicing them tomatoes and also easy to sharpen as it's laminated stainless and carbon steel.

Add my Wusthof small general purpose knife and my cheapo but good Prestige bread knife and that's all I need.

Gareth

[fuerein]

Three tricks to keeping that sharp edge:
1. don't let them sit in a drawer!
2. use them on a nice wooden or plastic board. Do not use glass or marble!
3. invest in a wet-stone to sharpen your knives. Don't mess about with a little sharpening steel -- they just don't do the job. I bought a stone probably a year ago now, and I've noticed only a few weeks ago that a few knives need re-sharpening. You'll get a good proper edge with a stone.


Actually the sharpening steel (unless you are referring to diamond steels, which some claim can be used to sharpen) is more akin to the leather strop for a straight razor. It is intended to straighten the edge of the knife not to sharpen the edge of the knife.

[doctorsimon]

Actually the sharpening steel (unless you are referring to diamond steels, which some claim can be used to sharpen) is more akin to the leather strop for a straight razor. It is intended to straighten the edge of the knife not to sharpen the edge of the knife.

However, knives in this house need to be sharpened after the wife chops on a glass board and throws the thing in the dishwasher!

[fuerein]

However, knives in this house need to be sharpened after the wife chops on a glass board and throws the thing in the dishwasher!

Okay, I'll grant you a glass chopping block and dishwasher mix will kill the knife's edge and would likely warrent going straight to the stone.

[Scotto]

I'll just add another comment to this excellent thread. Having properly sharpened and maintained blades is one of the single best things you can do to improve your cooking; if you haven't used a really sharp blade you will be amazed at how much easier it is to chop vegetables, meat, etc. As a fringe benefit, you will also reduce the amount of crying you will do when chopping onions - a dull blade bruises the cells and releases more noxious compounds. A sharp knife is also much less likely to slip and cut you, so it is a safety issue as well.

For most good blades, a steel, used before every use, will true the edge enough to allow you a very long time between sharpenings. As mentioned, this is analogous to a strop for a str8 razor. For those who hate to sharpen, a diamond-impregnated steel can bring back an edge very quickly as well, and is a good investment. This is like a diamond-pasted strop. I cook a lot, and with frequent steeling, I don't have to sharpen my blades more than once every few months.

[kozulich]

I'll just add another comment to this excellent thread. Having properly sharpened and maintained blades is one of the single best things you can do to improve your cooking; if you haven't used a really sharp blade you will be amazed at how much easier it is to chop vegetables, meat, etc. As a fringe benefit, you will also reduce the amount of crying you will do when chopping onions - a dull blade bruises the cells and releases more noxious compounds. A sharp knife is also much less likely to slip and cut you, so it is a safety issue as well.

True story. Haven't cried over an onion in years. Don't do anything special except keep my chef knife sharp.

[ratcheer]

Henkel's Four Star, for me. We bought a nice selection of them about 15 years ago and I still love them. A couple of them probably need replacing, though.

Tim

[murchmb]

+1 on the Global knives, but I would not waste money on buying a complete set. All you really need is a chef's knife, a decent bread knife, and maybe a smaller paring knife.
DJ.

I purchased my Globals at the end of the dotcom boom. I got them for between 50 and 75 percent off. I would say the 8.25 " chef's knife, the 7 " slicing knife, and the paring knife would get you through most days perfectly well. The bread knife is nice, but I always go to my much cheaper wood handled (F. Dick?) offset bread knife. I'm not exactly sure of the brand.

[ouch]

A good bread knife is nice to have around. They should never need sharpening, and the brand really doesn't matter at all.

A lot of folks will automatically reach for a serrated knife when slicing a tomato- the bane of most knives' existence. When you have a truly sharp knife, it should go through a ripe tomato with ease, and make 1mm slices without spilling any juice. Another great test for sharpness is making a chiffonade of basil- the shreds made with a dull knife will turn black quite soon, while those made with a sharp knife will stay green for a long time.


As for a steel, I never use one, but I don't recommend that anyone listen to me. I'd rather touch up with a polish stone. If you have ceramic based stones, they don't need to be soaked, so it's not much of an inconvenience. If you're going to use a steel, make sure it's a smooth one, and apply zero pressure when using it. It will realign the edge, and extend the time between sharpening.

[moses]

A lot of folks will automatically reach for a serrated knife when slicing a tomato- the bane of most knives' existence.

Only two things I ever reach for serrated for are bread and cheese.

-Mo

[Suzuki]

As for a steel, I never use one, but I don't recommend that anyone listen to me. I'd rather touch up with a polish stone. If you have ceramic based stones, they don't need to be soaked, so it's not much of an inconvenience. If you're going to use a steel, make sure it's a smooth one, and apply zero pressure when using it. It will realign the edge, and extend the time between sharpening.

I use a ceramic "steel" - same concept as a ceramic polish stone (likely between 4k and 6k grit). I got mine at Ikea for around $10 - $15 several years ago and like it more than the expensive steel I used previously.

[Opus_Y_&_Z]

I second the recommendation for Kershaw Shun knives. We do a LOT of cooking in my household. From low country, bbq (true smoked meat), and steaks to other seafood dishes. Shun knives are outstanding!

[Tito]

Sabatier here so far so good. Got them at the outlet in SC.

[FriscoSoxFan]

I have Henckles Pro-S 10 inch. I love it. That said, its the chef, not the knife. Have fun.

[galopede]

As I said before, I use the carbon steel Sabatiers, but word of warning, Sabatier IS NOT a company. There are several different makers of Sabatier knives, some better than others!

Gareth

[Tito]

Hm... I must of gotten one of them good ones (Sabatier). I treat mine like crap. And it's still as good as new going on 5 years now.

[abandonship]

You've probably bought some knives by now, but I'd thought I'd throw my two cents in. I'm a cook (sometimes called sous chef) and have been for a decade. I am very partial to my Henckel Chef's. I don't like the Globals myself, I find them uncomfortable. I love wood handles for comfort and weight (which is of utmost importance to me). I also use a Forschner serrated bread knife for veggies (best for shredding). The thing to remember about kitchen knives is that once you get past the cheapies (don't by cheap knives, they come out of the box dull and never sharpen), the choice is all about preference. What works for one cook may not work for another. I prefer classic french styles over asian, but once again, that's just me. Remember to keep your knives sharp. The best way to cut yourself is on a dull knife. Good luck!

[TheYoshi]

I'll add a vote for the Shun knives. Oddly enough the handles are designed for right handed people although I am left handed and I find them VERY comfortable, as Ouch said, knives are subjective.

If you're bent on a Santoku the Shun has more of a curve than any other I've found, I grab it quite often for "grunt" work in the kitchen at home, that said it's likely due to the fact that it's in the knife block on the counter with the "common" knives (Henckels 4 star) my serious cooking knives live in a knife roll and are all Shun. So honestly the reason I probably grab the santoku on a daily basis is because it's convenient and there... due to me not feeling that I need it for "real" cooking.

Now for my question, Ouch, where did you find a left handed yanagi, I've been looking for one.

Also I second the comment on a serrated bread knife being useful to have around the house, get a cheapish one when it gets dull throw it out and buy a new one. We have some Wustof job I bought like 5 of at a Williams Sonoma clearance outlet for ~$15 it's offset which is nice.

[fuerein]

I'll add a vote for the Shun knives. Oddly enough the handles are designed for right handed people although I am left handed and I find them VERY comfortable, as Ouch said, knives are subjective.

Shun makes left handed versions of their knives... Most stores only carry the right handed versions since they are going to be far more common, but I believe the left-handed versions can be special ordered from some stores.

[ouch]

Now for my question, Ouch, where did you find a left handed yanagi, I've been looking for one.




www.korin.com can order left handed yanagis from a few manufacturers. Western style, twin beveled knives can also be made left handed, but I find those unneccessary. A yanagi, or any single bevel knife, has to be made left handed from the get go. The upcharge is usually around 50%.

[TheYoshi]

www.korin.com can order left handed yanagis from a few manufacturers. Western style, twin beveled knives can also be made left handed, but I find those unneccessary. A yanagi, or any single bevel knife, has to be made left handed from the get go. The upcharge is usually around 50%.

Thanks for the info I'll check them out! I agree double bevel knives are just fine for left handers.

Out of curiosity does anyone have any experience with the Chef's Choice sharpeners? I know that in the strictest sense you should do this manually but Cooks Illustrated has always written favorably about them and they are typically a very reliable source.

[HlSheppard]

Thanks for the info I'll check them out! I agree double bevel knives are just fine for left handers.

Out of curiosity does anyone have any experience with the Chef's Choice sharpeners? I know that in the strictest sense you should do this manually but Cooks Illustrated has always written favorably about them and they are typically a very reliable source.

I am a "dyed in the wool" hand sharpener/honer. HOWEVER, I do own a Chef's Choice sharpener. I don't remember how I even got the thing (wedding gift??:confused:). Anyhow - it will sharpen (as in, it has the ABILITY), but it does not and can not hold a candle to a good hand sharpening, IMHO.

[TheYoshi]

I am a "dyed in the wool" hand sharpener/honer. HOWEVER, I do own a Chef's Choice sharpener. I don't remember how I even got the thing (wedding gift??:confused:). Anyhow - it will sharpen (as in, it has the ABILITY), but it does not and can not hold a handle to a good hand sharpening, IMHO.

Which model do you own? Is it one of the electric models? If I recall the one Cooks Illustrated was recommending was around $120 or $150

I think the model was 120 or something, they also have a new model for Japanese knives. I used to take my knives to be sharpened around once or twice a year but that time has passsed. I think I've not bought a set of hand sharpening stones yet because I feel like I want to be shown how to use them right and haven't found a site with a REALLY good tutorial.

[ravkesef]

Out of curiosity does anyone have any experience with the Chef's Choice sharpeners? I know that in the strictest sense you should do this manually but Cooks Illustrated has always written favorably about them and they are typically a very reliable source.

Cooks Illustrated is indeed a fine source. The principal reason to sharpen by hand is that an electric (such as the Chef's Choice 120) will remove more metal. this means that the knife will wear down faster. (we're talking decades, here folks!) The principal reason to use a machine is that you will get a perfectly sharpened blade at the proper angle, etc., in about one minute.
That being said, I have a Norton professional, 3-sided oil stone. I've gotten good at it, and develop a fabulous edge in about 10 minutes. My countertop needs to be cleaned afterwards. I also have a Chef's choice and can get a fabulous edge in less than a minute. Which is better? The question is irrelevant, since you're looking for a 22 1/2 degree edge. (11 1/4 for Japanese knives.) The 22 1/2 degree edge developed by hand is no different from the same angle developed by a machine. Why use one over the other? Why go for wet shaving if all you want to do is remove hair? The answer is that some people want to sharpen their knives by hand. Some mistakenly believe that the knife is sharper. As I said before 22 1/2 degrees is the correct angle, and it doesn't matter how you get there. If you're planning on handing your knives down to your great grandchildren, by all means avoid the electric. Otherwise, take your pick. I switch back and forth between the two.
Now if I were a professional chef, I'd think twice about using the electric because the knives will wear down much faster than they will for the home hobbyist such as myself.
While we're on the subject--I don't yet own a Shun knife, but I've held them in my hand. What a work of art!!!!!! And they feel just right. drool.
Forged vs. stamped? Less of a difference these days than you might imagine. In fact, some stamped knives are better than some forged knives. Best steak knives? Probably the Tramontina sold at Walmart for $4.95. do you really want a laguoile steak knife for $110? it's a great knife--and there are only 4 craftsmen who affix their signature to the instrument. It will last a lifetime and more. The Tramontina you'll throw away when it gets dull and buy another one for $4.95.
I even have a few Gerber kitchen knives from the days when they used to make them. Stamped, to be sure, but of extremely hard stainless steel. The darned things last forever. And they take a great edge. Rats!! I can't justify getting rid of them and buying a Shun. Henckels is another great company that makes a fine knife and really stands by their product. I have a few of them and they're wonderful to use. Avoid the Rachel Ray Furi. It's a cheap commercial trick.
Don't overlook the Mac knife. Very good, very sharp--takes a great edge.

[fatt_tony]

I like my Forschner Knives (http://www.swissarmy.com/cutlery/Category.htm?category=victorinoxstamped&)good quality and great price. Swiss made.

[ravkesef]

I like my Forschner Knives (http://www.swissarmy.com/cutlery/Category.htm?category=victorinoxstamped&)good quality and great price. Swiss made.

How could I have forgotten to mention these??? Cooks illustrated puts them right at the top (especially the Chef's knife,) and they're stamped, not forged. also dirt cheap. Go figure.

[abandonship]

How could I have forgotten to mention these??? Cooks illustrated puts them right at the top (especially the Chef's knife,) and they're stamped, not forged. also dirt cheap. Go figure.

My Forschner bread knife if a wonderful tool. I use it on much more than bread. Can't beat the price for the quality.

[jfl]

I follow the method in www.razoredgesystems.com. I got their book from the library and they back-up their methods with real world tests.

Stainless vs carbon steel? stainless

Sharpen dry or with oil? dry

They did these comparisons with meat packers to get their answers. Not what most of us believe to be true.

Jim

[HlSheppard]

I follow the method in www.razoredgesystems.com. I got their book from the library and they back-up their methods with real world tests.

Stainless vs carbon steel? stainless

Sharpen dry or with oil? dry

They did these comparisons with meat packers to get their answers. Not what most of us believe to be true.

Jim

Jim -

That is the exact way I've sharpened for years. I'm 37 now, in my teens, my best friend's dad always had RAZOR sharp knives (pocket, hunting, you name it). As I collected knives back then and was learning how to properly sharpen (but was not able to get them that sharp), I asked my buddy's dad how he got his knives so sharp. The set that he got out of his drawer was from Razor Edge Systems.

That was it... I went on a pilgrimage to find them (as they were only sold at outdoors shows, etc at that time). I ended up calling the company and got the "deluxe set" at that time. It yields incredible results. A few years after that, I bought (and still use) the book you recommend as well.

I have not found a single "system" or technique that can give me better results that what I've used all this time. I've tried 'em all (Norton, Arkansas, Lamson, Ceramic, Diamond, etc, etc).

I can get my Global chef's knife so sharp that it will cleanly slice free-hanging toilet paper!! Try it and you'll see how hard that is! :eek:

The book changed my entire outlook on sharpening (for some of the reasons you list). The author did a TON of research and backed it up with actual real-world field testing.

I can't tell you how many people will scoff at the stainless vs. carbon debate as well as the oil vs. dry stone, etc. All I can say is that the results I can get speak for themselves. Also, I've learned that there is as much folklore and untested "science" behind knife sharpening as anything else out there.

[HlSheppard]

Which model do you own? Is it one of the electric models? If I recall the one Cooks Illustrated was recommending was around $120 or $150

I think the model was 120 or something, they also have a new model for Japanese knives. I used to take my knives to be sharpened around once or twice a year but that time has passsed. I think I've not bought a set of hand sharpening stones yet because I feel like I want to be shown how to use them right and haven't found a site with a REALLY good tutorial.

Not sure off hand - at the time (maybe 9 years ago?) it was the best one that they had. They have at least one model better now (that will supposedly sharpen serrated edges as well).

[HlSheppard]

I also have a Chef's choice and can get a fabulous edge in less than a minute. Which is better? The question is irrelevant, since you're looking for a 22 1/2 degree edge. (11 1/4 for Japanese knives.) The 22 1/2 degree edge developed by hand is no different from the same angle developed by a machine. Why use one over the other? Why go for wet shaving if all you want to do is remove hair? The answer is that some people want to sharpen their knives by hand. Some mistakenly believe that the knife is sharper. As I said before 22 1/2 degrees is the correct angle, and it doesn't matter how you get there. If you're planning on handing your knives down to your great grandchildren, by all means avoid the electric. Otherwise, take your pick. I switch back and forth between the two.


Well, maybe you have a newer Chef's Choice than mine (chances are, that's the case) - but theoretically you are correct. ONLY theoretically... What I mean by that is that my Chef's Choice is incapable of "locking" your knife at the perfect angle to get the desired result.

Mine uses these magnetic guides that:

1) allow the blade to float all over the place, which in effect does more harm than good.

2) Do not allow you to sharpen the back inch or so of a blade with a full bolster (as with a Wusthof, Globals or stamped knives are OK).

Those are the two main reasons why I sharpen by hand.

[ratcheer]

Do you sharpen one side of the blade, or both?

The reason I ask is because I worked with a very smart guy from Hong Kong (he held multiple post-graduate degrees) whose father had been a lifelong knife and scissor sharpener for the garment industry, there. He said his father said only one side of a blade should be sharpened. When I thought about it, it seems to make sense.

Tim

[chef8489]

Do you sharpen one side of the blade, or both?

The reason I ask is because I worked with a very smart guy from Hong Kong (he held multiple post-graduate degrees) whose father had been a lifelong knife and scissor sharpener for the garment industry, there. He said his father said only one side of a blade should be sharpened. When I thought about it, it seems to make sense.

Tim

Depends on the knife. Most european style knives are sharpened both sides but a lot of asian knives are sharpened single bevel.

[ratcheer]

Depends on the knife. Most european style knives are sharpened both sides but a lot of asian knives are sharpened single bevel.

Thanks. I guess it is complicated, like everything else. :mellow:

Tim

[TheYoshi]

Jim -

That is the exact way I've sharpened for years. I'm 37 now, in my teens, my best friend's dad always had RAZOR sharp knives (pocket, hunting, you name it). As I collected knives back then and was learning how to properly sharpen (but was not able to get them that sharp), I asked my buddy's dad how he got his knives so sharp. The set that he got out of his drawer was from Razor Edge Systems.

That was it... I went on a pilgrimage to find them (as they were only sold at outdoors shows, etc at that time). I ended up calling the company and got the "deluxe set" at that time. It yields incredible results. A few years after that, I bought (and still use) the book you recommend as well....


So, from that site what would you recommend as a good "starter set"?

[HlSheppard]

Do you sharpen one side of the blade, or both?

The reason I ask is because I worked with a very smart guy from Hong Kong (he held multiple post-graduate degrees) whose father had been a lifelong knife and scissor sharpener for the garment industry, there. He said his father said only one side of a blade should be sharpened. When I thought about it, it seems to make sense.

Tim

True for scissors. Knifes can be "purpose-sharpened" but for the most part we sharpen on both sides in the U.S. (meaning chef's knives).

[ouch]

Do you sharpen one side of the blade, or both?

The reason I ask is because I worked with a very smart guy from Hong Kong (he held multiple post-graduate degrees) whose father had been a lifelong knife and scissor sharpener for the garment industry, there. He said his father said only one side of a blade should be sharpened. When I thought about it, it seems to make sense.

Tim

Even if you're talking about a single bevel knife, both sides must be sharpened. Why? When you sharpen, you are basically grinding away metal until it forms a burr- the edge actually folds over to the other side. At this stage, it's pretty much useless until the burr is ground away on the other side.
Some folks maintain that the best way to know when you're ready to move on to a finer grit is when you're able to flop the burr from side to side with a single stroke on the stone.

[HlSheppard]

So, from that site what would you recommend as a good "starter set"?

I have the "Deluxe Profession Kit w/ 8 inch hones." Since I tend to have slightly longer blades and I don't do arrow heads or fish hooks - it fit me just perfect.

I still have it and it will most certainly last damned near forever. The guides have a small amount of wear on them, but I can replace them when I need to by themselves.

They only offered the Naugahyde case when I bought mine (1986??), but I do like the black plastic box better.

Another thing I learned from this company (the book in particular) was how damned useless 99.9% of the sharpening steels out there are. I have their "professional straight steel" and it has a chrome hard - MIRROR finish on it. Compared to all of the fluted steels out there that come for free in all the wood block sets? Well, let's just say there is no comparison. Almost no pressure (think Slant bar shaving) and my edges are lined up and true for a LONG time in between honing.

[HlSheppard]

Even if you're talking about a single bevel knife, both sides must be sharpened. Why? When you sharpen, you are basically grinding away metal until it forms a burr- the edge actually folds over to the other side. At this stage, it's pretty much useless until the burr is ground away on the other side.
Some folks maintain that the best way to know when you're ready to move on to a finer grit is when you're able to flop the burr from side to side with a single stroke on the stone.

Very true, Ouch. Even on a chisel, you're still creating and removing a burr. HOW DID I MISS saying that??:blushing:

[jfl]

So, from that site what would you recommend as a good "starter set"?

I went low end. Just two stones and two guides. Found a plastic box that fit everything perfectly for about 3 bucks.

Jim

[HlSheppard]

What can I say Jim - I over-indulge. Need some blades?? :crying: :wink2: :biggrin:

[ravkesef]

Well, maybe you have a newer Chef's Choice than mine (chances are, that's the case) - but theoretically you are correct. ONLY theoretically... What I mean by that is that my Chef's Choice is incapable of "locking" your knife at the perfect angle to get the desired result.

Mine uses these magnetic guides that:

1) allow the blade to float all over the place, which in effect does more harm than good.

2) Do not allow you to sharpen the back inch or so of a blade with a full bolster (as with a Wusthof, Globals or stamped knives are OK).

Those are the two main reasons why I sharpen by hand.
that's correct--mine holds the edge at a precise angle, and sharpens the entire length of the blade. That eliminates the problems that the older machines had (which I also bought, but discontinued using for the reasons you cite.)
so, with the newer machine, the theoretical becomes the actual, with the only drawback being the removal of more metal from the blade than would occur with hand sharpening.

[ravkesef]

Jim -

That is the exact way I've sharpened for years. I'm 37 now, in my teens, my best friend's dad always had RAZOR sharp knives (pocket, hunting, you name it). As I collected knives back then and was learning how to properly sharpen (but was not able to get them that sharp), I asked my buddy's dad how he got his knives so sharp. The set that he got out of his drawer was from Razor Edge Systems.

That was it... I went on a pilgrimage to find them (as they were only sold at outdoors shows, etc at that time). I ended up calling the company and got the "deluxe set" at that time. It yields incredible results. A few years after that, I bought (and still use) the book you recommend as well.

I have not found a single "system" or technique that can give me better results that what I've used all this time. I've tried 'em all (Norton, Arkansas, Lamson, Ceramic, Diamond, etc, etc).

I can get my Global chef's knife so sharp that it will cleanly slice free-hanging toilet paper!! Try it and you'll see how hard that is! :eek:

The book changed my entire outlook on sharpening (for some of the reasons you list). The author did a TON of research and backed it up with actual real-world field testing.

I can't tell you how many people will scoff at the stainless vs. carbon debate as well as the oil vs. dry stone, etc. All I can say is that the results I can get speak for themselves. Also, I've learned that there is as much folklore and untested "science" behind knife sharpening as anything else out there.
Howard--that's absolutely phenomenal! :w00t: From the sound of it, far better than anything I've been able to achieve, and I regard myself as a pretty good knife sharpener. but this is way out of my league. But it would also seem that they must sharpen at a much smaller angle also, since sharpness is related not only to how smooth the edge is, but the actual angle of the blade. e.g., Japanese knives at 11 1/4 degrees, makes them "sharper" than European knives at 22 1/2 degrees. Do you know offhand what their angle is?
I've gone to their web site and I think I'll give them a call on Tuesday morning. In the meantime, a few tips from you would be appreciated. How does it differ, for example, from the Norton? In your opinion, what makes it possible to achieve that kind of edge with these stones. Also--looking over the equipment on their website, it does look rather labor intensive. Is that an accurate statement? And how easy is it to get up and running the first time, assuming a good degree of klutziness?
thanks for any info.

[ratcheer]

And how easy is it to get up and running the first time, assuming a good degree of klutziness?

That was funny. :biggrin:

I have another question. How does it compare to the Diamond system, which I have used for several years and gotten pretty good results, i.e., very sharp knives?

Thanks,
Tim

[HlSheppard]

Do you know offhand what their angle is?
I've gone to their web site and I think I'll give them a call on Tuesday morning. In the meantime, a few tips from you would be appreciated. How does it differ, for example, from the Norton? In your opinion, what makes it possible to achieve that kind of edge with these stones. Also--looking over the equipment on their website, it does look rather labor intensive. Is that an accurate statement? And how easy is it to get up and running the first time, assuming a good degree of klutziness?
thanks for any info.

The angle is determined by YOU (meaning where you set the guides on the spine of your knife blade. You work in a good strong burr on each side with the coarse stone, then polish with the fine. THEN you move the guides closer to the blade edge (meaning you slide them down vertically on the blade) and use the fine stone again. In effect, creating a wicked, polished double-beveled edge. The directions do a heck of a lot better job explaining this than I do! I've just used them so long I go through the motions at this point and fine tune where I need to. IF you're really serious about taking your sharpening to the "next level" get the book too. It's NOT a requirement - but after I found the book a number of years after I had been using the system - it really helped my understanding of the physics behind what I had been doing. The included directions are fine with pictures etc. (i.e. it's not a "step sell" type of thing). Don't worry about Klutz factor - that's my middle name.

A Norton is a great stone, I think you could probably use these guides on a Norton and get good results. HOWEVER, what I do know is these stones are made up of some very proprietary materials. I once heard through the grapevine that they were a type of optical flour used for grinding eyeglass lenses(?). However - they are to by used DRY. No water or oil of any kind (unlike the Norton).

I don't think they're really much more labor intensive than any other type of sharpening. The first use takes longer, since you may be putting a proper bevel/burr on a blade that may not have had that in a while. Other than that - I think the results are easily worth it. My relatives won't even let me sharpen their knives anymore because they're "too sharp." :001_rolle I tried explaining to them (as Scotto so deftly put it) that a sharp knife is way safer in the kitchen and they just 'tune out.' :mad3:

[HlSheppard]

That was funny. :biggrin:

I have another question. How does it compare to the Diamond system, which I have used for several years and gotten pretty good results, i.e., very sharp knives?

Thanks,
Tim

Hi Tim -

I suppose it would depend on which system you have. I had the Lamson system in the plastic case with the "rods." The system made sense, but the hones were way too course to get a wicked, polished edge on a blade (yours may differ, though). The diamond "stones" would probably be OK - but again the ones I have remove a lot of steel and are way too course for a good, polished edge.

Another "old wives tale" regarding knife edges refers to the actual cutting being done by "micro serrations." Bah! Can you image a Feather razor blade with "micro serrations?!" I know that someone posted microscopic edge pics somewhere on this site...

Serious sharpness comes from a polished, smooth edge. Can you imagine shaving with a straight razor with a rough edge? Ain't pretty, lemme tell ya. :eek:

I don't think a smooth leather strop helps support the "micro serration" theory; but you'd be surprised how many people will swear to that.

[ratcheer]

I suppose it would depend on which system you have. I had the Lamson system in the plastic case with the "rods." The system made sense, but the hones were way too course to get a wicked, polished edge on a blade (yours may differ, though). The diamond "stones" would probably be OK - but again the ones I have remove a lot of steel and are way too course for a good, polished edge.



I think that is probably the same as what I have. I think the diamond hones were too expensive and I just stuck with the standard stone ones. The results are sharper than anything else I have ever done, but it sounds like the system you are describing is light years more advanced.

Thanks,
Tim

[Woknblues]

There is a wealth of info here. great thread. I would suggest that you ebay the word "solingen". There are hundreds of great old solingen steel chef knives for a huge discount. This high carbon steel is absolutely second to none. Maybe damascus is better, but not really for chef knives, anyway. For the amount that you spend on one very nice and new wustaf or henckels 10" chef knife, you could get a block full of mix and match henckels and other great manufacturers in all shapes and probably a couple of laguiole's.