Hygiene, worry, fearing the small stuff, how much is too much?

[Emmett]

The latest thread on used brushes got me thinking. I am more worried about pesticide residue on my produce than I am about dirt and bacteria. Likewise I am more concerned about car accidents than plane crashes. The statistics back me up on this--I am much more likely to die in a car than in a plane. I recently read Barry Glassner's Culture of Fear, which, while disappointing in several ways, does make a strong point that Americans are sort of neurotic over things that they have little statistical reason to worry about. Am I alone in thinking that used brushes or some dirt on a potato skin are the least of my worries? I suspect the reason why my immune system seems to be so good is because I didn't grow up in a neurotically anti-septic household. Was it clean and did I learn good hygiene habits--yes. Did my parents freak out when I came home covered in dirt with my mouth smeared by wild blackberry juice? No! Do parents nowadays let their children eat food that they find growing wild? Food they picked with dirty hands no less?!

Sometimes I feel very old-fashioned for thinking that a little dirt is not so bad. The current culture tries to inculcate a sense of shame in a person for being willing to use something that isn't brand new, or sterilized, or at least dunked in anti-bacterial hand gel.

[mdunn]

I agree. A little dirt is fine.

Actually, I was reading a paper somewhere (ill try and find it) about how the nose is perfectly evolved so that you can stick your finger in, pick and eat. The nose acts as a filter, trapping germs etc that are floating around on the air. Theyre then air dried as you breathe, and therefore quite weak. When you eat them theyre easy for your immune system to kill, therefore making the immune response much more efficient if you ever come in contact with the disease again.

So there, tell your kids to pick away!

[Chevyguy]

I agree with you Emmit. When I was growing up all us kid's shared the same tube of toothpaste and the same bar of soap at the sink. None of us died. The human body is an amazing thing. They have found that all these hand sanitizers have actually weakened the immune system in some people because they kill the bacteria that the body needs.

Clayton

[Brodirt]

My granfather always used to say "you gotta eat a pound of dirt before you'll die."

Our paranoia is related to the fear mongers in the marketing department and on the evening news. I wanna toss a brick through my TV every time I get the fear tease like "danger in the drinking water...tune in at 11!"

I know a couple of otherwise intelligent people who succumb to all this hype. One in particular stopped eating all but organic beef for fear of mad cow, then stopped eating all but organic chicken for fear of bird flu, and now stopped eating all pork for fear of swine flu. I don't know what she does each and every time we hear about an e.coli outbreak in produce...she's already just about a vegetarian. The other person I am thinking about literally believes everything she is told...she expresses little independant thought already, but any conversation with her usually entails an in depth discussion of weeks old news fears that I should worry about and protect my children about. I spent many summers sharing a beach house with her family...to watch her kids on the beach next to mine was illustrative of all this. Her kids would be wearing a hat, zinc under the eyes and on forehead, full sleeve swim shirt for the boy, with below the knees board shorts, and the little girl wore a one piece swim suit like a shorty wetsuit...full sleeves and legs to the knees. My little girls got a morning application of SPF 30 and another later in the day and went about their good times with their little girl bathing suits. Oh, my kids are middle fair skinned, blonde haired and blue eyed and never ONCE got a sunburn.

I grew up spending the vast many weekends on a boat and never used anything other than good sense in keeping in and out of the sun. I would develope a deep dark tan every year after slowly exposing myself and rarely burned. I use only SPF 15 today and only after spending an hour or two absorbing the sun's natural goodness.

Guess what...the latest studies say that our kids are unhealthy today due to vitamin D deficiencies from the lack of exposure to the sun!

There is fear and their is rationality. Proceed intelligently.

That said...I still hate flying.

[Thebigspendur]

Keep in mind when they do stats for car and plane accidents they are made to convince you flying is very safe. They quote the stats in miles driven and flown. That comparing apples to oranges. Planes travel faster than cars. If you look at the stats based on time in each conveyance the stats look very different.

[RazorDingo]

I think that people, naturally, are not very good at understanding, or indeed managing risk.

We have a natural fear of the big, noisy, public threats: plane crashes and terrorism, to name but two. And yet we tend to ignore the less flashy, but far more deadly, risks all around us.

A good example of this sort of behavior is buying lottery tickets. The odds against winning a Powerball jackpot are almost 200 million to one against. And yet the odds of dying in a traffic accident in the US are now approximately 1.4 per million miles driven. Which means that, if you drive one mile out of your way to buy that lottery ticket, you are 142 times more likely to get killed on the way there, than you are to hit the jackpot.

The media doesn't help either. They'll run a story on the lucky person who wins the lottery. But not so likely to report on all the people who got killed driving to the gas station to buy the tickets.

[Brodirt]

Keep in mind when they do stats for car and plane accidents they are made to convince you flying is very safe. They quote the stats in miles driven and flown. That comparing apples to oranges. Planes travel faster than cars. If you look at the stats based on time in each conveyance the stats look very different.

As I said, I hate to fly. I am flying on this coming Sunday. I am aware of your argument and have often wondered which version of the analysis is correct. So...

I looked up the stats:

For USA in 2006:
Car
passenger vehicle miles travelled
2.6 trillion
fatalities
38,648
per mile death rate
.000000001486

Plane
passenger miles travelled
590 million
fatalities
49
per mile death rate
.000000008305

Unless my math is off, and it certainly could be given the fact that my calculator doesnt do decimals small enough I did this by hand, it looks like the per mile calculation puts auto travel as safer.

If you make a speed adjustment, putting car speed at 55 mph and air travel at 450mph it looks like this:

Car death rate per hour: .000039449

Plane death rate per hour: .0000081755

Putting the plane as the safer method.

The stats come from here:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_37.html

But if my calculations are wrong can someone correct me, otherwise it appears as though, as usual, you can make statistics say what they want. I would think though that it seems clear that the plane is the safer method by far.

[RazorDingo]

Plane
passenger miles travelled
590 million
fatalities
49r.

Actually, the "passenger miles travelled" is 590 billion.

But, I also see that (according to the NHTSA statistics) that highway deaths were "only" 2.19 per hundred million miles travelled. A much more believable number than than the 1.4 per million I cited earlier.

Which means that

a) The odds of you getting killed driving to buy that Powerball ticket are roughly equal to your chances of hitting the jackpot. (Probably less if you aren't drunk when you hop behind the wheel.)

and

b) Very large numbers are very difficult for most people to get their sticky fingers around.

[Brodirt]

Actually, the "passenger miles travelled" is 590 billion.

But, I also see that (according to the NHTSA statistics) that highway deaths were "only" 2.19 per hundred million miles travelled. A much more believable number than than the 1.4 per million I cited earlier.

Which means that

a) The odds of you getting killed driving to buy that Powerball ticket are roughly equal to your chances of hitting the jackpot. (Probably less if you aren't drunk when you hop behind the wheel.)

and

b) Very large numbers are very difficult for most people to get their sticky fingers around.

Billion!!!! Yes, correct, that skews the odds even moreso, by three decimal zeroes, in the favor of air travel.

Putting air travel deat rate at .000000000083

and speed adjusted at .0000000039449

So, now anyway you analyze it air travel is significantly safer.

[Brodirt]

I just wanted to add that I did all those calcs free hand with my new Namiki Vanishing Point that SWMBO got me for my birthday! Med. nib, in red with gold trim, the ink is Private Reserve Naples blue.

[ogopogo]

I agree. A little dirt is fine.

Actually, I was reading a paper somewhere (ill try and find it) about how the nose is perfectly evolved so that you can stick your finger in, pick and eat. The nose acts as a filter, trapping germs etc that are floating around on the air. Theyre then air dried as you breathe, and therefore quite weak. When you eat them theyre easy for your immune system to kill, therefore making the immune response much more efficient if you ever come in contact with the disease again.

So there, tell your kids to pick away!

Well this makes sense, in a very disgusting kinda way.

My parents were not neurotic about hygiene. We were allowed to play and get dirty. Just as long as we didn't bring it in the house. I have a very good immune system, I hardly ever get sick and I don't have any allergies. I'm sure my upbringing had a lot do do with it.

[Bill Smith]

The latest thread on used brushes got me thinking. I am more worried about pesticide residue on my produce than I am about dirt and bacteria. Likewise I am more concerned about car accidents than plane crashes. The statistics back me up on this--I am much more likely to die in a car than in a plane. I recently read Barry Glassner's Culture of Fear, which, while disappointing in several ways, does make a strong point that Americans are sort of neurotic over things that they have little statistical reason to worry about. Am I alone in thinking that used brushes or some dirt on a potato skin are the least of my worries? I suspect the reason why my immune system seems to be so good is because I didn't grow up in a neurotically anti-septic household. Was it clean and did I learn good hygiene habits--yes. Did my parents freak out when I came home covered in dirt with my mouth smeared by wild blackberry juice? No! Do parents nowadays let their children eat food that they find growing wild? Food they picked with dirty hands no less?!

Sometimes I feel very old-fashioned for thinking that a little dirt is not so bad. The current culture tries to inculcate a sense of shame in a person for being willing to use something that isn't brand new, or sterilized, or at least dunked in anti-bacterial hand gel.

+1

Thank you, I think the old adage, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" should be repeated.

[Kratos]

I think that people, naturally, are not very good at understanding, or indeed managing risk.

We have a natural fear of the big, noisy, public threats: plane crashes and terrorism, to name but two. And yet we tend to ignore the less flashy, but far more deadly, risks all around us.



Bigtime +1. Another thing about flying, they don't just hand a piloting license to any idiot, unlike with driver's licenses. There is also air traffic control to regulate thing. A pilot also isn't going to crash into 2 other planes because he was texting,"OMG! Ur my BFF!" Don't even get me started on the drunks...

I use hand santizer a lot, but just on the job. Off-duty I rarely do. Common sense and rational hygiene is my preferred method.

[Brad31]

Wasn't the polio outbreak of the mid 20th century caused by better sanitation and increased hygiene?

You want a strong immune system? Make it work a little every now and then.

[ogopogo]

I think this (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090820175901.htm) might have already been posted on another thread (maybe it was different forum) about the evolution of the appendix...

This is the part that relates to this thread:

Why do we have burst appendices?

"...He also was not aware that appendicitis, or inflammation of the appendix, is not due to a faulty appendix, but rather due to cultural changes associated with industrialized society and improved sanitation. "Those changes left our immune systems with too little work and too much time their hands – a recipe for trouble," says Parker.

[strat1117]

The latest thread on used brushes got me thinking. I am more worried about pesticide residue on my produce than I am about dirt and bacteria. Likewise I am more concerned about car accidents than plane crashes. The statistics back me up on this--I am much more likely to die in a car than in a plane. I recently read Barry Glassner's Culture of Fear, which, while disappointing in several ways, does make a strong point that Americans are sort of neurotic over things that they have little statistical reason to worry about. Am I alone in thinking that used brushes or some dirt on a potato skin are the least of my worries? I suspect the reason why my immune system seems to be so good is because I didn't grow up in a neurotically anti-septic household. Was it clean and did I learn good hygiene habits--yes. Did my parents freak out when I came home covered in dirt with my mouth smeared by wild blackberry juice? No! Do parents nowadays let their children eat food that they find growing wild? Food they picked with dirty hands no less?!

Sometimes I feel very old-fashioned for thinking that a little dirt is not so bad. The current culture tries to inculcate a sense of shame in a person for being willing to use something that isn't brand new, or sterilized, or at least dunked in anti-bacterial hand gel.

Congratulations! You do not suffer OCD (at least in this regard :wink:).

[SRock]

+1

Thank you, I think the old adage, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" should be repeated.

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself"

[bwatts]

They say it is best to introduce a range of bacteria to a new born, (within the first 6 weeks of life) so as to stimulate the immune system which can help prevent asthma and allergies. As a kid I used to play outside getting rather mucky, while my younger sisters didn't and they both happen to have allergies. I know what I plan to feed my child if I ever have one a spoonful of muddy water :biggrin:

[tsmba]

"Another day, another crisis" has become the norm on network TV. Remember when alar on apples was the big deal du jour? My feeling is that all produce should be rinsed before use regardless of the packaging. Last week, I read where someone was raising Caine over fluoridated water....it never ends.

[ryanl7640]

My son's pacifier fell on the floor while we were entertaining some company. I picked it up, wiped it on my pants leg, and put it right back in his mouth. The woman who was visiting, who is also a new mother, let out a gasp. She insisted that it needed to be wiped with an antibacterial wipe. I said I would rather he had some dirt and dog hair in his mouth than whatever that crud was. We are germ phobic as a culture, but exposure to germs and viruses tempers the immune system. The problem with american culture is the inability to comprehend the need for moderation.

[ogopogo]

My son's pacifier fell on the floor while we were entertaining some company. I picked it up, wiped it on my pants leg, and put it right back in his mouth. The woman who was visiting, who is also a new mother, let out a gasp. She insisted that it needed to be wiped with an antibacterial wipe. I said I would rather he had some dirt and dog hair in his mouth than whatever that crud was. We are germ phobic as a culture, but exposure to germs and viruses tempers the immune system. The problem with american culture is the inability to comprehend the need for moderation.

+ 1 on the moderation.

[toucanlamp]

Well one theory that has been explored a lot in recent years has been the hypothesis that maybe our ultra-hygenic lifestyles which keep us completely isolated from the things one would encounter in a normal outdoor environment are responsible for the strong increases in prevalence of certain conditions.

The prevalence of conditions related to the immune system like asthma, allergies, skin conditions like excema, and so on has risen greatly over the past fifty years. Though none of it is conclusive, there is a theory that this is the result of parents going to such incredible lengths to protect their children from any possible environmental contaminents.

It seems like for so many parents today their mission as parents is to just protect their little precious treasure from having to have any contact with the realities and risks of life at all costs. Keep them in a bubble as long as they'll let you. Why do you think that every single kid these days is allergic to something and autism and other behavior conditions like ADD and whatnot have absolutely exploded in prevalence? They don't let them go out and play because they're going to get abducted by pedophiles and so then they raise socially inept kids with all kind of behavior problems.

I think people who worry about all this crap just completely wipe out the potential gains in lifespan from being so worried about everything they do with the stress and wasted time of worrying.

I guess I'm lucky, I'm not religious at all and I don't worry or fear all the disasters and concerns that might befall me anyday. I tend to feel that the most absolutely worthless, useless, stupid thing anyone can do is spend time worrying about things they can't control, like dying, getting this or that disease, whether the plane is going to crash, keeping every molecule of bacteria away from your little angel, and so on.

[kimfella]

...it appears as though, as usual, you can make statistics say what they want. ...There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned lies, and statistics.

Don't know who said that, but it sounds like a Churchillism. Or maybe it was Will Rogers?

[mmack66]

There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned lies, and statistics.

Don't know who said that, but it sounds like a Churchillism. Or maybe it was Will Rogers?

http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/lies.htm

[kimfella]

I think that people, naturally, are not very good at understanding, or indeed managing risk.

We have a natural fear of the big, noisy, public threats: plane crashes and terrorism, to name but two. And yet we tend to ignore the less flashy, but far more deadly, risks all around us. ...This (http://www.schneier.com) guy has quite a bit to say about humans managing risk.

[kimfella]

http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/lies.htmDamn! that was fast! Anyway with it being attributed to so many people one can see why I was confused.:huh:

[MMag]

I don't take any medicine, don't eat anything organic, hardly wash my hands, when I was kid if it fell on the floor I picked it up and ate it and I just rinse produce with plain water. I can't even remember the last time I was really sick, except for a stuffed nose and slight cough for 1-2 days, or went to the doctor. Besides the visits that are mandatory for deployments since I'm in the military. It annoys me that we take medicine for every little thing that our immune system is capable of taking care of on it's own. I truly believe in the future our bodies immune system will be weaker than that of a today if we don't allow it to adapt to our environment.

[matt_jr]

This stuff is soooo true. I have proof. I have a fox hound that eats any thing and everything.. including other animals fecal matter. She has only been treated for worms when we first rescued her 8 years ago. Other than that she's never once been sick. I myself though do not recommend eating fecal matter. If you must strengthen your immune system by ingesting bugars please try not to get them in between your teeth:lol:.

[Greybeard]

I believe in moderation in most everything (except shaving ADs :lol:) and common sense is the best approach to life.

You can't live in a glass bubble and enjoy life. Humans are social animals and if you're going to live in proximity to other humans you're going to get sick. If you didn't then you wouldn't build up antibodies so you don't continue to get sick. The odds of the average person contracting a fatal or damaging disease is very minimal. The only measure I take is to wash my hands frequently (not compulsively) to reduce the instances of illness.

If you're active, which has been proven to have great physical benefit, you will have accidents and injuries. The vast majority live quite normally afterwards.

If you eat properly, then you don't need vitamins and supplements. The body will actually stop its own production if it receives a surplus from another source.

Our society has changed and evolved. There are many diseases that plagued our ancestors that no longer exist due to medical advances. We also have new ones due to industrial pollution, population growth and global travel. That's life. I also believe that paranoia is fostered because we can now identify and publicize many more medical conditiions, illnesses and potential problems than in the past. This can save your life. In other instances, ignorance is bliss.

I used to travel a lot for business reasons and I am not a comfortable passenger on airplanes. I felt I was pushing the odds by flying so frequently :001_rolle. Since I wasn't driving the plane, I didn't have that feeling of control that I had driving a car. I realize that pilots are eminently qualified, but I guess I have trust issues :001_tongu
Also there are no fender-benders in an airplane.



- Peter

[ek.310]

all I can say is "wash wash wash wash wash wash wash"

[Go West Young Man]

We in the West might be overdoing it a bit, but remember that in most of the world (in our own recent past) childhood mortality from disease is high and epidemics are normal occurences.

More lives have been saved due to implementation of basic hygiene and sanitation than lives lost due our supposed reduced immune systems.

[bythbook]

+1

Thank you, I think the old adage, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" should be repeated.


"We have nothing to fear but fear itself"




thank you for that, Rob.

[jkenton]

Unfortunately, regardless of the treatment, everyone will at some point die.

Even if they never leave their house.

I have met 3 pack a day smokers who lived to be 90. And a couple one pack a day smokers who died at 40.

Stats are an imperfect way to compare human experiences. But, they are also the best AVAILABLE method. When hearing stats, it is important to hear the parameters (deaths per mile flown, or whatever) and make a judgment for what that means to YOU. I fly infrequently, but my chances of crashing on that particular flight are just as good as the million miler who is sitting next to me, or the first-timer (because we are on the same plane).

Accidents happen, though very infrequently (which should be obviously redundant). Sometimes they are even fatal. That's all that matters, really.

[A-Man]

Just another point of view...

I've been called a germaphobe, crazy, etc. I do go out of my way to avoid germs to a degree. But I don't wash 800x a day w/ disinfectant soap or run around spraying everything down. But you can still be careful. Wash before important times (mostly, before eating any foods you'll be handling.) Wash after touching frequently touched items (example gas pumps).

There's also ways to boost your immune system, pro/pre biotics, exercise, sleep, etc. As far eating organic, I don't see how that's a bad thing. That's actuall closer to coming into contact w/ germs than eating non organic. That's food straight out of the earth without any sort of chemical treatments added.

There is a balance between being careful and being crazy. For my being careful about washing and even avoiding touching certain things, my immune system works quite well. I can't even remember the last time I took medicine and haven't been sick in 6 years running (minus a day or so cold once in a blue moon).

[kingfisher]

If you eat properly, then you don't need vitamins and supplements. The body will actually stop its own production if it receives a surplus from another source.
This is not true, with the rare exception vitamin D. The other vitamins are not produced in the body (except vitamin K) and must be obtained from an outside source.



I used to travel a lot for business reasons and I am not a comfortable passenger on airplanes. I felt I was pushing the odds by flying so frequently :001_rolle. Since I wasn't driving the plane, I didn't have that feeling of control that I had driving a car.

You've got it right that when you are behind the wheel of a car, you "feel" like you are in control. Because in reality, you're not. Two days ago, a woman was driving down the road minding her own business when a guy plowed through a barrier and headed toward her head on. She couldn't see him because there was a van in front of her. The van swerved to avoid the collision and the woman was plowed into at 60 mph and died on the spot. She was "in control" of her car, but not in control of the situation. When you drive, you can only control YOUR OWN car. You have no control over all the other cars, many of which are being driven by irrational or majorly distracted idiots.

The plane is still safer, regardless of your lack of control.

[Deltaboy]

Dirt never killed anyone!